not only in commemoration. we march for continuation of a struggle that will make america live up to its promise for everyone. that's why we're here. and that's why we'll head home to continue the struggle after this weekend. thanks for watching. i'm al sharpton. "hardball" starts right now. hillary's war. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews. in washington. the sharp focus on hillary clinton seen all this week in front page headlines, none of them good heads into this ekd would. why the newspapers demanded the former secretary of state keep her e-mail records out of public reach. why did she do her business diplomatic, political and otherwise on a private e-mail server beyond public access?

and how can investigators ever be sure of getting access to all of it? and if not, how will any of her critics be satisfied and how will her supporters ever be able to clear her of the charges her critics always make against her? the senior editor of msnbc.com, david korn from "mother jones" magazine. you've had a hell of a month. and her new book it's fabulous just out a week or so ago, "the presidency in black and white." you know her by this book. let's start with everybody's view of this. beth, you're a wire reporter at heart. you know how to get the facts. getting the facts are so interesting. there were guidelines. tell me where i'm wrong. in 2009 when hillary clinton became secretary of state that people like her should have known about, i think it's fair to say, that you're supposed to operate on your government e-mail account. you're supposed to have everything available, retrievable, freedom of information use by the press. it is supposed to all be there.

she chose to create a separate server, her own brand really of e-mail where she does it all on her own and that's what she decided to do. where is the wrong, the right, the murky, the what here what is the story and why does it persist? >> well it persists because of politics primarily. but let's go back to the 2009 rule that you just referenced. it was a much broader rule that governed the maintenance of e-mail accounts in 2009. it was very fuzzy language. it says that people in state department should do their business on government e-mail however, they could use private e-mail if they chose. they just needed to keep it in a way that it could be archived and searched. it was only in 2014 that a much stricter rule came down saying all government business needs to be done on the government account unless it's an emergency for some reason. technically she was operating within the rule that existed in 2009 when she became secretary of state. and the state department has never said that she's violated that policy.

they've simply said that they've got to go see what's in the e e-mail that she's turned over to them, if there's sensitive information that might have been compromised by the fact that it was not on a secure server. that opens up a whole other can of worm. but right now it doesn't look like she violated the policy. >> i want you to vet them first. this is "the washington post," former secretary of state hillary clinton appears to have violated or operated in violation of what the white house said tuesday was, quote, very specific guidance that members of the obama administration used government e-mail accounts to carry out official business. there you have the white house saying, josh earnest, she violated very specific guidance. they're saying she did. associated press, where you used to work. even if hillary clinton's use of a private e-mail server to conduct official business as secretary of state was not illegal, it violated obama administration guidance and undermined his pledge of

historic transparency. that's the associated press. now, the last one is politico. the state department has had a policy in place since 2005 to warn officials against routine use of personal e-mail accounts for government work a regulation enforced during hillary clinton's tenure as secretary of state. it appears to be at odds with her reliance o on a private e-mail for agency business. politico has learned. so you've got three sources there saying it was some kind of violation. your response the that? >> my response to that look i'm not here to defend her at all. she's a smart enough person and knew being the top of this you know she's the most important diplomat in the united states. she got guidance from someone, legal guidance that she could stay within -- she could run her e-mail this way. i'm not saying it was a smart thing to do. it probably did violate rules, but it was clearly a stupid political move if nothing else. >> one thing i've been trying to find out all day, if you have a private server not like g-mail

aol, but she had her own. it was a clinton something or other. does that mean you can always get that -- when you said you can keep it on your own e-mail but it had to be retrievable. if it retrievable? can you delete delete delete whenever you want? >> as a public official she should never delete delete she has to keep everything just for posterity's sake, for herself. this rule is kind of murky. what she should have done if there was e-mail from a private server she should have forwarded it to her state department account. that's what's happening. josh earnest said in the briefing, look many of you still have my personal e-mail account. but what i do is to make sure everything is on the up and up, i take it and forward it into the white house ngt. so it's not just about the server. it's about what she didn't do. >> but legally, how do you know -- okay, you get going here. if you're her worst enemy and

you don't trust her, how do you not know she didn't do some e-mail traffic that she won't give away to anybody. if you're a bad guy and tray gowdy. trey gowdy is investigating her right now. >> chris you don't. and the answer to your question is if she has her own e-mail server set up in her own home there's no guarantee that anything that went any e-mails that went there were preserved and were not deleted, deleted, deleted. there's no reason to think that they were either. >> could a forensic expert get it retrieve it or dig it up somehow out of the machine on the computer? >> if you control the server you can pretty much delete things if you want. it may still be some trace and maybe the nsa can get to it but for all practical terms, you can control what is saved on the server. if there's something you want to get rid of, you probably can get rid of it. you probably have to destroy machinery to do it but it's out of the chain of custody is

tainted here. that's the real issue. >> okay. >> so the people who don't like her, don't trust her, will always be able to say that we don't know for sure that she handed everything over. >> but she gave 55,000 documents from that personal server. so i mean she still might have more than 55,000 -- >> that doesn't say it all. that tells you a lot. >> that tells you a lot. >> that's what you normally do when you don't want to give all the information, you say how much you're giving. i'll start with beth. you have been covering this all this years. is this story about who do you trust, do you trust hillary, she's up to something or just a secretive person a person who likes to keep her private being as private as possible just an instinct on her part learned over years? is it about she did something wrong she knows about? that wouldn't make sense because this decision to go private in this case with the e-mail server was probably before anything happened. so she wasn't hiding anything. what is it really about, this story? what does it say about her being a good president? >> what it says to me right now

is the fact that she's basically not said anything at all about this all week except nor that one little tweet where she said she wants the state department to hand over the e-mail. >> which they don't have. >> what she's said all week points to the fact that she doesn't even want to explain why she did this. that strikes me as odd. to tell you the truth, chris, as somebody who has covered her quite a bit, she is secretive, she is not -- she doesn't like the press. she wants to keep matters as private as possible. but she's also somebody who follows rules. she is the secretary of state knew that she was representing this country, this government this president and to do certain sort of like sleazy endgame around the rules for no reason makes no sense. which is why i think she probably did this on the up and up and the fact that she's not coming out to sman it or to have somebody who is a senior person in her world explaining it and rather than just sort of hiding behind this one little tweet doesn't make sense to me. >> so no ig or anybody, no

counsel from the white house came to her and said madam secretary, you're in violation of the rules, i know you don't want to be fix it. >> in august there was a notification they wanted to deal with it. >> august of when? >> supposedly of this year. >> but that's a little late in the game. >> very late in the game. but i good back to she needs to go out and talk. she needs to talk before she even talks about -- >> you're one hell of an investigative reporter i know. we had ann guerin of "the washington post" and mike schmidt who broke this story for the "times" both denying there was op o involved. that somehow a bunch -- and everybody in politics thinks all stories are dumped. they don't think there's any reporter that does any homework and all gets dumped on the door here dummy, write this. we did not get this dumped from republican opo.

>> we've been looking at this cycle or this pattern for almost two decades now. something happens in the clinton world and they do something wrong and the right wing -- their opponents jump on it and say it's the worst thing that's ever happened since the holocaust, then their defenders rush in and say look at what the rye wing and the media are doing, they're attacking us. the thing itself on a scale of one to ten might be a four is now being argued over like it's a 13 and we lose sight over what this is about. even if this came from opo research, it shouldn't matter. as secretary of state, she had an obligation to make sure her records were kept in a way that they were not totally within her control and that the public could have access to it. that didn't happen. that's a problem. >> let's talk the pry mordial. i want to suggest the possibility everybody starting with beth. you know how you have kids in the backseat. we all remember being one of the kids in the backseat. four brothers. we were all in the backseat

together sometimes. sometimes there's a sister. he's sitting on my side or he just touched me. it's almost like that with the media. i don't mean the right and left. the big mainstream accusedly liberal media and hillary clinton seem to have this narrow mind-set he's on my side. this looks like it will be all through the next ten years if he's president. your thoughts beth. this natural sense i really do want to fight. i don't want to get along. that's what i'm thinking. >> one thing that struck me very strange about this week is the fact that "the new york times," which republicans thing is the most liberal newspaper ever that they broke the story and that hillary clinton and her -- i mean not her personally but her team is fighting back and calling what they did sloppy journalism. suddenly you've got supposedly the liberal presidential candidate and the pro-democratic newspaper at odds. a complete sort of chaotic mess. >> david brock is a smart fellow should look at the fact that in

2000 guess who "the new york times" endorsed for senate. >> who? >> hillary clinton. >> who did they enforce in a fight against barack obama? >> hillary clinton. >> so this notion that somehow the "times" is sitting up there on times square thinking how they'll get hillary clinton -- >> this is beyond -- go ahead, david. >> the clinton camp has always been incredibly sensitive and even paranoid in some quarters about press coverage going back to whitewater and other things. they really think they're always being targeted. as soon as something comes up it's their natural inclination and all the reporters who have dealt with their communications team, they close ranks, they attack always on the attack and i think some some ways it doesn't serve them well. >> last word from -- >> chris, this is more than the term of you've got mail. this is an issue of transparency and honesty. she's got to get out in front of it no matter who is for her or against her. this could hurt her. she's got to come out and talk

and show what's going on with that server. >> this weekend the book stores that are still open in your neighborhood. >> amen. >> both the chains and the great local ones that save our civilization are carrying on our book shelves your book. >> "the presidency in black and white." >> that's why you're here. not only why you're here. thank you for coming on. david, i watch you, you are the gladiator of the 21st century. you are something. coming up -- david korn. president obama's strategy relies on the most unlikely of allies, iran. working with iraqi forces in their battle against isis. president obama seems to have a plan. it's called iran. tomorrow is the 50th anniversary of the march at selma. back then it was over the right to vote. today thanks to an assault on voting rights and their leader reince priebus, it still is. the top guy in foreign relations could be indicted this

month on federal criminal corruption charge. menendez denies any wrongdoing but his case is the latest in an ugly string of public corruption realities. anyway finally let me finish with attorney general eric holder's report on the death of michael brown and the conduct of the ferguson police force. don't forget coming up monday kevin spacey there he is that evil man. i mean that guy playing an evil actor, all the fans of "house of cards" will want the tune in for that one. he is something else. you know, i think about money kind of a lot. money is freedom. money's always on my mind. car insurance. credit cards. preschool. debt. cell phone bills. it's complicated. it's not easy. i am not a good budgeter. unfortunately, i'm a spender.

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when it comes to iran and isis, the enemy of your enemy is your enemy. >> a challenge for president obama, does iran help in the fight against isis or shouldn't we be doing it? "the new york times" reports on iran's expanding role fighting isis in iraq. more openly than ever before iran's powerful influence in iraq has been on display as the counteroffensive against islamic state militants around tikrit has unfolded in recent days. at every point the iranian backed militias have taken the lead in the fight against the islamic state. wow. "the wall street journal" homers home the point. when fighters from the islamic state staged a lightning offensive into northern iraq in june weapons and advisers were en route from iran within hours. joining me is the bbc bureau

correspondent kim gattiss, and what a prestigious group. i want to start with david. is this the plan for the ground war against isis iran? >> i don't think it's the plan. but it's the reality. the reality is the boots on the ground are iranian, iraqi and kurdish. the 60-person coalition we've heard about is not the point of the spear. we're flying air support for, which is a bizarre twist -- >> are we strafing the other side? >> i don't think we're doing that. we say we're not coordinating with them. which means she's an iraqi, i call her, you're an iranian, she calls you. >> so we're going through that games gamesmanship. >> iran is having a great obama presidency. >> in this instance, two force, the shia militia, who are real

fighters who are at least -- well, they are nationally iraqi. but then you have very quickly arriving qudz force coming in. >> the head of the quds force is there and they're doing photo ops and pictures of the iranian supreme leader in downtown baghdad and they're getting credit for the gains of this coalition. >> but having grown up after it our soviet coalition with us the four years of the european war, it was soviets fighting nazis, not us. we got in there in june of '44 after normandy but they'd been fighting them since they were treacherously attacked by the pandzers in '41. 20 million people dead. are we going to use them as our surrogate fighting force? >> tactically in the short-term it works for the u.s. because the pentagon doesn't want to be any more closely involved than

it already is but there's a long-term price to pay for having shias a t the front of this fight that feeds the nair attive that they're under attack. >> is this land they're fighting for is shia or sunni land? >> it should be known as just iraq. and the iraqi army is trying to retake it from isis. >> but are the people who live in those areas that are in dispute now, is that considered sunni territory? >> well tikrit and to a large extent mosul are sunni. and that's why it's a problem if you have shia militias that are part of this fighting force. because sunnis who want to come back to their towns want to know what happens the day after, what happens after the shia militias come in? so that's why i say there is a long-term price to pay for this short-term tactic. unless there is a plan that we're not aware of and the obama white house has a plan to outmaneuver the iranians but the u.s. doesn't have a great

track record. >> looking out five years, are we simply to see different battle lines. this won't be over with in the near future. the next president will see the line moving out from the iraqi border into isis will be several miles deeper into to the west and there will still be this territory controlled by islamic -- is there any chance the iranian forces going to in there could defeat islamic forces? >> i think this will go on for a few years. there will be victories against the islamic state. but as kim says if it's shia victories, this plays into the isis narrative. this is going to strengthen isis in some other places. and i think what you're going to see is not just shifting battle lines, you're going to see shifting borders. i think we're going to redefine what these countries are based on who they see their enemies are and who they see their allies are. and these shifts could go on for the next ten years because the kurds are another group that's fighting on our behalf who want

independence, and we're going to be in a tough spot also by taking advantage of that and then when they turn to us and say, well do we get our country now out of this? and if we say yes, then we alienate the turks. >> the irony is there's so many historical echoes here because when the nazis rolled through much of russia on their way to moscow, they found a lot of people at least initially glad to see them. they hated the communist system. but after they met the nazis and the ss came in and killed all the priests and the jews and the gypsies and the gays they said wait a minute this is worse than stalin. they didn't have a happy situation as they retreated, obviously. could that happen here with the shia? are they going to be worse than the isis forces? is anybody going to like anybody over there? >> i'm not a big fan of historical comparisons like that. i think this is very particular to the region very particular to what we're seeing unfold there right now. but i think we need to take a step back and look at the bigger strategy of how you bring the violence to an end --

>> forget my parallel. where does the loyalty of the people lie at some point? we found iraq come apart because the sunnis didn't want to fight isis when they came in because they preferred the ice/shariah crowd to what they were getting from the government of the shia. where do the people of the islamic state want to be? do they want to be under islamic state? >> sunnis in syria don't necessarily want to be ruled by isis, but they don't want to be ruled by a shia militia. >> who do they want to be ruled by? >> and that goes to the point of what do you do about isis once you push it out of iraq. let's say there are victories in tikrit and mosul and you push them out of iraq and it goes to syria. do you cauterize the wound there and let the rest of isis and syria fester? for iraq for the u.s. isis is an iraq problem. for the europeans, it's a syria problem. they want to know what happens when it becomes just a syria problem and they have jihadi

fighters going in and out of europe into syria. and there's no strategy for syria at the moment beyond isis. >> and you said what is the obama plan. at the very beginning, the president said one of the most important things we can do is to find representation for the sunnis in baghdad, to find an alternative narrative for the sunnis. >> i agree. >> in other parts of iraq and we haven't done it. the baghdad government hasn't stepped up to it. they've moved closer to iran. this is the critical thing in the whole region because isis isn't the problem, violent extremism is the problem. you need moderate sunni stabilizing alternatives in these places. you've got to build these grassroots organizations from the ground up. it's tough, but i don't see any progress. i don't know if you see progress. >> i don't see any progress. the growing narrative is that sunnis are the victims, and we've gone from shia victimhood to sunni victimhood and we're stuck in a cycle. >> thank you so much for your expertise.

i only have historic references. you can speak for the community over there. >> history's important. don't destroy that as well. >> i like it and i ain't going to change. thank you. anyway, we'll be right back after this. to satisfy the adult.... and kid - in all of us. (supergrass' "alright") plays throughout ♪ ♪ ♪ nutritious wheat for the adult you've grown into. and delicious sweet for the kid you'll never outgrow... feed your inner kidult... with frosted mini wheats®. ♪ okay, you ready to go? i gotta go dad! okay! let's go go, go, go... woah! go right, go left, go left stop! now go... (shouting) let's go!! i gotta go! can i go? yup! you can go. (beeping alert) woah!

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i hear people say we'd like to improve school lunch program but the kids all they want to do is eat pizza and burgers. if we give them good food they won't eat. come on people we're adults here. it's up to us to do better. my kids would happily live in front the x-box and not take a shower for as long as they live but that's not going to happen either. >> that's tom colicio from bravo's top chef testifying about the nutritional value of school lunches. harry truman first started that program after doctors found that many of the young men recruited to serve in our military were failing their physicals due to malnutrition. and that effort was later

boosted by president kennedy's youth fitness program which promoted physical activity and healthy eating in schools. now first lady michelle obama has followed their lead with her, let's move campaign. but promoting nutrition is an investment in america's economy. healthier diets could save $87 billion in medical costs and lost productivity a year. and centers for disease control estimates that obesity is responsible for $147 billion in medical costs a year. that's part of msnbc's "7 days of genius" we are supporting leaders who change the world. and we're talking about the role that politics, poverty and food play in our nation's health. i'm joined by tom colicio, a restaurant entrepreneur and judge on "top shelf" as well as founder of the cooking lab and author of "modernist cuisine." i only have a few minute.

but one is this fascination with food. all of a sudden young women want to go out with chefs. chefs are cool. i don't remember that growing up. chefs were cooks, now they're cool. a lot of poor area inner city areas, whatever you want to call them i know this to be a fact. there are food deserts where the only thing you see is a kfc or some kind of burger king if you're lucky. no real giant food ors safeways no easy way to get lettuce. you're a mile away from a head of lettuce or a tomato in a lot of these neighborhoods. so what people are relying on is chinese food at 6:00 at night or fast food. tom, put it together this sort of concern about good food and then the gourmands out there and then this recognition that bad food and food deserts is killing people. >> right. so i guess we have to put this into context of a genius. and all week long msnbc has been focusing on what genius so and how to define it about you we

should focus on food and the role that nutrition plays. what kid was at the bus stop who didn't get dinner the night before and who is not getting a nutritious break fst, then going to school and it's impossible for them to learn. what's the lost potential out there due to hunger and due to any ideas of food deserts? roughly 16 million children are living at or below the poverty line. so it's very easy to demonize a parent for making those bad choices except what's affordable and why are things affordable? if you want that answer you can actually go to iowa this weekend to the republican ag conference and you'll see food policy that's actually not benefiting people but benefiting large corporations for that answer. >> let me go to nathan on that. same question. how do you put together in new focus on quality food for people with money and good food for people that don't have a lot? >> well it's a tough problem

because people are voting with their mouth ss with what they eat. why is it that food that's ultimately killing us and costing all this money, why is that popular? and it's a combination of factors. it's not available, as you pointed out, chris and it isn't necessarily delicious or there's a perception it isn't. no matter how hard we try to legislate things because i agree with tom, there's a huge policy component, people have to want to eat it. it has to be affordable and convenient. telling everyone they should plant organic vegetables in their backyard and cook all the dinners themselves doesn't work for the single mom who is raising a couple kids and holding down two jobs. >> but i go back to you, tom, and your expertise. you sit down at a meal -- my wife is fabulous at this. you have a really good salad.

and you know if you're reasonably hungry around 7:00 it's great. but you also wouldn't mind going to a chinese restaurant and knocking back some sweet and sour pork which requires no effort except sheer joy and your carb levels go through the roof. you have to say, i'm going to have a decent salad tonight, i'm not going for chinese. >> i agree if you have that choice. if you have the necessary means to make that choice. we're talking about people who don't necessarily have the means to make that decision. and yet you have to look at what is affordable. what's affordable is highly processed foods. >> in packages. >> right. >> thank you so much tom colicchio and nathan myhrvold. 50 years after the march on selma and voting rights are under siege, they really are. why do we have to fight selma and reince priebus all over again? if a denture were to be put under

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i'm page hopkins with breaking news. new jersey's senior senator robert menendez the top democrat on foreign relations committee, is in serious legal jeopardy tonight. multiple outlets are reporting that menendez could face federal corruption charges later this month. menendez has been under investigation for taking gifts in exchange for political favors. senator menendez spoke just minutes ago. >> let me be very clear, very clear. i have always conducted myself appropriately and in accordance with the law. every action that i and my office have taken for the last 23 years that i have been privileged to be in the united

states congress have been based on pursuing the best policies for the people of new jersey and of this entire country. >> that is senator bob menendez of new jersey on the possible criminal corruption charges he could be facing later this month. and now we're taking you back to "hardball." when you think about the principle that was upheld that day and in subsequent days at the edmund pettuss bridge it was the promise of an america where everybody is equal under the law where everyone has opportunity. >> that was president obama on the joe madison radio show talking about the importance of the march on selma which took place 50 years ago tomorrow.

the president and his family and george bush and members of congress are heading to selma to pay tribute and commemorate the historic anniversary of that demonstration for voting rights which turned violent and became known as bloody sunday. we're looking at a picture of it. but for now the right to vote has again come under assault by the gop. republicans in nearly three dozen states passed laws to suppress the voting rights of minorities and young people. listen to republicans here in their own words here before the 2012 election pennsylvania's republican leader mike turzai. >> voter i.d. whichly which allow him to win the seat. >> do you think all the attention drawn to voter i.d. affected last year's elections? >> yeah i think a little bit. i think we probably had a better election. think about this.

we cut obama by 5% which was big. a lot of people lost sight of that. he won, he meet mccain by 10%. he only beat romney by 5%. i think that photo i.d. helped a bit in that. >> and north carolina republican precinct chair john yellton said this to the daily show back in october after his state's new voter suppression laws were in effect. >> the law is going to kick the democrats in the butts. if it hurts a bunch of lazy blacks, so be it. >> and it just so happens that a lot of those people vote democrat. >> gee. >> joining the roundtable tonight, michelle bernard, michael tomaski, and sherry lynn hardy. you have sort of a republican background. i want to know what you think of those three guys. they admit the goal of the thing wasn't to prevent cheating but

to take the black vote down. they just said it. >> chris, i don't want to defend those guys. i don't want to be in the business of defending every republican who makes an ignorant comment. >> they're reducing the ability to vote. >> i don't think so. voter i.d. laws in fact have been proven to increase as they did in the state of georgia. are you aware of that? in the state of georgia, black voter participation increased after they passed -- >> who is out there saying this is good for the black community? >> i'm a black leader, i'm in favor of voter i.d. i don't really care what the other black leaders are saying. >> here's the problem. if you live in a row house in a big city like i grew up in and you don't have a car. what i.d. card do you have to flash to vote? people vote they know you, you

never had to show an i.d. card before. where do you get that i.d. card. >> chris, if you get any sort of government assistance if you get a medicare card you have to show i.d. people do have photo i.d.s. how do you get any sort of government assistance? how are people flying on the plane. >> these people don't fly on airplanes. >> my mother my mother 79 years old and she has photo i.d. does your mother have photo i.d.? do any of your siblings have voter i.d. >> it is not just the voter i.d. laws. >> it is the voter i.d. laws. >> we've seen the supreme court begin the dismantling of everything that people fought for for 50 years ago. when the supreme court struck down part of the voting rights act, states were led by republican governors basically said now we have carte blanche to pass laws to suppress the votes of anyone who votes democratic. so that is latinos, it is overwhelmingly african-americans. it is a horrible horrible thing

to do. and we just saw evidence of three people who are gloating about the fact that they know that this hurts democrats because it is suppressing the black vote. >> if you're looking for federal benefits, then of course you have to show who you are because there's a lot of fraud in that world. >> right, absolutely. >> there's no evidence nobody on the right has induced much evidence that there's any kind of widespread fraud in the voting booth. all you have to do to vote is be a citizen of the united states. there's even a movement ben carson put this in his book he doesn't understand why people who don't pay taxes have the right to vote. >> that's rather hamiltonian. you have a position. that's fair enough. it may not be right. it's fair enough. >> no no we can agree to disagree. >> i'm not doing that. i don't do that here. it's interesting just to get back to the stakes here. but the white vote -- i don't

even like talking identity but we have to live with it. the white vote was against obama. we wouldn't have an african-american president if blacks couldn't vote. you wouldn't have them if blacks couldn't vote. you wouldn't have a black caucus. there's a lot of realities out there that are different because of the right to vote. it comes down to ethnic representation in many cases. >> the nostalgia that we hear so many white republicans and others talk about, that they yearn for yesteryear 50 years ago neither you nor i would have been able to get a job other than being a housekeeper. not that anything is wrong with that, but if you wanted to do something else, you could not do it. that's where we're going back. there are members of the republican party who have decided that it is much easier than to rather come up with a platform that will attract african-americans to the republican party, just take away the vote and we'll move back the clock a hundred years.

>> jack kemp was on the direction, enterprise zones, ways of developing neighborhoods -- we just talked about it food deserts. >> why isn't trader joes's or whole paycheck going into inner cities? because they don't see -- they're can looking at desolate buildings and people taking public transportation, these people can't pay for it. if you brought back enterprise zones and you gave people some motivation to clean up the neighborhood and bring those big stores in then you're providing jobs and you're providing other revenue and other stores that come in. >> the roundtable's staying with us. up next the u.s. justice department has issued a report on the death of michael brown in ferguson. we'll talk about that next. meet the world's newest energy superpower. surprised? in fact, america is now the world's number one natural gas producer... and we could soon become number one in oil. because hydraulic fracturing technology is safely recovering lots more

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ideas come into this world ugly and messy. they are the natural born enemy of the way things are. yes, ideas are scary and messy and fragile. but under the proper care, they become something beautiful. we're back the u.s. justice department issued a report on the death of michael browne in ferguson, missouri and found serious problems with the local police force with relations and the african-american community there. the officer in the incident had the right to believe he was

acting in self-defense. what do you think? >> about? >> the report itself. it was short of two parts b it didn't just the judgment of the jury in the trial. >> i think think it highlights a problem in urban communities with traffic violations. i think this is really a problem. >> why do you think police officers, white, black, and brown stop african-americans? >> this is not necessarily young black men, it is everyone being stopped for traffic infractions and then a $70 add membership straytive fee, and the people in low income communities can't pay that. it can go up to $150 or $160. if you don't pay them they issue arrest warrants.

>> i know it's a bench warrant. are these people stopped for dui? or making the wrong turn? >> they're being stopped for a variety of reasons. >> on paper they're being stopped for a variety of reasons. if you look it is motivated by money, and it is because they are black. >> one gentleman in the report said he fell asleep or was resting in his car, and the police pulled him over and accused him of being a pedophile. >> did he have a boy in the car with him? >> no, he was just near a park. and he was just a black an -- there was an sfrern who i think was laning on her car. she paid part of the traffic violation. >> leaning on her car? >> just leaning on her own car. >> what was the charge?

>> i don't remember what the charge was, but she partially paid it and ended up spending six days in jail. this is not just ferguson. this is happening in a number of communities. there are black leaders. >> is there a in the black community for driving. >> no. >> it's puree schism. -- puree racism. every the less you have a 67% minority community, 94% of the people arrested are black, and the report said it is because people believe in stereotypes in ferguson. >> did the cops get the stereo

types from experience in crime fighting or from racial background where they grew up? are you saying they ent inwasn't in as racist or that it became because of action on the job. >> it's hard to know. >> cab drivers in new york don't want to take you to lower places. black cab drivers don't want you to third world isn't, they don't want those fares, they don't want to go there, there is no fare back. i'm trying to find out what you think are the motives for the bad behavior. >> i think increasing revenue, they want revenue. >> for years, columbia has made money by parking tickets. >> but if you're black in ferguson, and the cops thing -- >> there is no racial discrimination for a parking

ticket. >> i'm a big fan of eric holder and i think the way he wrote the report was great. i have something to say about attorney general eric holder's report when we get back in a minute. we have more about the conduct of the ferguson police after this.

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let me finish tonight with attorney general eric holder's report on the death of michael brown and the conduct of the ferguson police force. i start with the conflicting eyewitness accounts that found their way into the news. people were saying things about what happening that expire spiral ds into fork lore. people were holding their hands in the rare to make the point that a police officer killed an innocent man out of cold blood. the justice department found no truth to this lore. the picture of what happened

could not stand up under scrutiny. or will standing up for the truth. this is all for the whole sorry mess, but even a story mess with all of the bad atmosphereices and reputation, we have to find the truth in the incident itself. and when there is a systemic problem with the police officer, we must come to a reckoning about one instance of police conduct. what happens between michael brown and officer darren wilson. i was taught there is two kinds of justice that we need to honor. one is distributive. do the police fort of ferguson missouri offer fare stream to their african-american citizens. and then there st community justice. the kind that governors the one on one relationships we have with each other. was there this kind of justice in the tragic incident between darren wilson and michael brown.

not condemning darrell wilson, eric holder came as close to human justice as we're like lich to get. that is "hardball" for now. "all in" with chris hayes starts right now. sdwlrchlgts tonight "tonight on "all in." >> at some point it will require boots on the ground. >> the drums of war get louder and americans favor sending troops to isis. should america reinstitute the draft? >> a draft lottery. a live pick on the pickings for the birthdays for the draft. >> guess what senator is about to face corruption charges. the man that invented the k-cup says he wishes he didn't. and the