american express' timeless safety and security are now available on apple pay. the next evolution of membership is here. the new culture war. good morning. thanks for getting up with us. i'm jonathan capehart in for steve kornacki. we have breaking news on the deteriorating situation in yemen. the u.s. military ordered the evacuation of 100 troops and special forces and there is an emergency meeting of the security council this afternoon to discuss the situation. shiite rebels took hold of the country's third largest city and after 137 people were killed in two suicide bombings there on friday. we will bring you updates

throughout the show. plus what does president obama have planned for the now 134-day-old confirmation battle over loretta lynch, the nominee for attorney general. and we will look at why there are new calls for al gore to run in 2016. and then there's this story breaking overnight. "the houston chronicle" reporting that testimonyd cruz senator of texas, will be the first republican to declare his candidacy. the announcement will take place tomorrow in virginia at liberty university. cruz will skip the exploratory committee phase and head straight into the campaign. we begin with the latest republican presidential contender to voice support for religious freedom measures measures that would allow individuals to discriminate against gay and lesbian americans based on religious

beliefs. in florida on thursday jeb bush was asked about the religious freedom bill that passed the senate. >> religious freedom is a serious issue and increasingly so. i think people that act on their conscious shouldn't be discriminated against for sure. there should be protections. so as it relates to marriage equality, it may change -- the supreme court may change that. that shifts the focus. >> as same-sex marriage skred spreds spreads across the country businesses are refusing to provide services to same-sex couples based on business beliefs. ted cruz was asked in may if he would provide services to gay couples if he were a baker or photographer. >> i'm am perfectly willing to interact with anybody. at the same time i don't think

the law should be forcing americans to violate their religious faith. >> marco rubio weighed in on the issue last march after republican governor jan brewer vetoed a religious freedom bill supported by conservatives in the arizona state legislature. >> i don't believe that gay americans should be denied services at a restaurant hotel or anything of that nature. i don't believe that a caterer or photographer should be punished by the state for refusing to provide service force a gay wedding because of their religious-held beliefs. we have to figure out a way to protect that. >> here to discuss that raul reyes, contributor with "usa today." matt lewis, contributing editor at week. emily tisch sussman from american progress and richard socarides, lgbt activist who was a senior adviser to president bill clinton, now a writer with the new yorker. thank you all for being here. richard, i'll start with you. the news of jeb bush on thursday supporting religious freedom

measures that would allow discrimination against the lbgt community. what do you make of this? >> it's part of this backlash we see against the success of marriage equality. the supreme court, people anticipate the supreme court ruling later this year probably in the spring that there should be a nationwide right to marriage equality. no matter where you live, you can marry the person you love. in some states the more conservative states we're seeing a backlash that's taken the form of these bills which basically say if you have religious objection based upon religion you don't have to abide by the law it doesn't just apply to gay people. the thing to remember is we have a long history in this country of accommodating religious freedom, an important american value but also standing for equality. these new bills, i think, are a bunch of nonsense. most of them are

unconstitutional any way. for a while now the republican party, you know in the middle of this primary season will focus on this as a way to say we're not for gay rights. >> you've thrown a lot out there. we have a map of the states where the religious freedom bills are coming up. there's the map there. richard threw a lot out there. matt, you respond to some of this. >> i think richard is right about the potential for a backlash. the american public in recent years has become very sort of pro gay marriage. because they were being in a sense victimized. there's a chance it will go the other way. at some point during the last few years, leave me alone became bake me a cake. and you could see pastors are compelled to even perform gay marriages if they want to maintain tax status. i think that's a bridge too far. there needs to be a reasonable accommodation where people who have deeply held religious

values are not forced or compelled by the government to do things against their rights of conscious. >> the way the supreme court interpreted these laws these cases we have seen among the states where people have refused to bake cakes, or send services to same-sex couples, those have been struck goin thedown by the lower court. if you're a commercial establishment, if you open your doors in the public arena you open your doors to all. if you're running a company, you are interacting with the court system, the tax system police the infrastructure those are things that we as taxpayers fund. it's unconstitutional for businesses to turn around and say to people we're not going to provide these services to you. that makes them second class. the important thing to remember is that the supreme court has a long history of when they look at laws banning sexual -- discrimination based on sexual

orientation, it does not outlaw the rleligious beliefs. the religious beliefs are irrelevant. it outlaws certain conduct. there's a difference. >> this is the long game. this is the long game in pushing lgbt rights and even those pushing against lgbt rights. over the last couple of years we have talked about marriage being right in the center of discussion. we need to look past that. the court will rule on marriage nationwide in june. we need to be looking at the next thing for all those who care about lgbt rights. there's a lack of understanding that in many states around the country you can be fired, kicked out of housing. that is the long game. and that religious freedom really is at the center of where the opposition will be. these bills will only come up more and more. >> can i say something? one thing about context. matt raises an interesting point about deeply held religious beliefs. this whole argument turns on the context. if you're performing a religious service, for a long time in the united states you -- we don't force religion to abide by any

one particular thing. so, if you're in a denomination f you're a pastor in a denomination that doesn't believe in gay marriage no one is suggesting that you be forced to perform a gay marriage. if you are engaged in the regular stream of business or commerce, you have to abide by the rules that everyone abides by otherwise no one goes by the rules. jeb bush is trying to -- has to win some primaries in order to get the republican nomination. the only way he can do that is he can't be for marriage equality. he's trying to tread a very thin line here. that was more of a non-answer than an answer that he gave. >> you're getting to something i was just about to bring up. in that s.o.t. that we played of governor bush that he doesn't people should be discriminated

against, this idea that you can be for marriage equality but you can also be for people being discriminated against because they're gay and lesbian. >> i think that speaks a little to his rustiness of a candidate. he's trying to thread the needle, fudge it. if you're going to take a side just own it. i know this was an on the fly type of answer but he is sort of trying to have it both ways. i tell people a good way to look at it is to flip it. if you were in utah you encountered a mormon or certain establishments that would not deal with you because you were not a member of the lds faith. most americans would be deeply offended by that. >> i think jeb bush and marco rubio are actually now occupying the mainstream american position. for a long time your gay americans, there was a sense they were not having equal rights, couldn't get married. >> most americans don't believe in bigotry.

i think they have a lot of sympathy, there's a chance there could be backlash. i think there will come a time when christian pastors and other religious leaders are compelled to perform gay marriages. if i'm a gay person who sits in -- who attends church why shouldn't i have my pastor? you know -- >> because all of this -- >> we need to reach an accommodation. there needs to be a compromise. >> you're raising a false issue here. this debate has never been about forcing religious denominations to perform any kind of marriages. this has always been about civil marriage. >> civil marriage. >> never in the history of the country. we have freedom of religions in this country and never in the history of the country have we forced religion to do any one particular thing. >> why are we forcing photographers who have deeply held convictions -- >> because photographers are in the normal stream of commerce. you wouldn't let a photographer

not take a picture of an african-american person because they didn't like african-americans. >> if they didn't like conservatives ant they didn't want to come to my wedding, i would hire somebody else. >> are civil rights laws we all have to abide by. >> this is exactly like jim crow. >> no. no. no. it's not a perfect analogy. but i have to tell you that i get a little uncomfortable when people start using religious beliefs to hide behind or to use as an excuse to not grant someone or allow someone their full dignity, the full respect their they deserve under our constitution. >> was used by abolitionists. >> you're right. they used religion to say, look you are not treating people fairly. but we're talking about people who potentially are using religion to treat people

unfairly. >> there has to be a reasonable compromise whereupon -- where religious people who have deeply held religious convictions. >> how do they prove that? >> that's a great question. i have a twist to what matt is saying. i don't disagree this is entirely out of the mainstream of merp samericans, but i feel it's because of lack of education. when you go to the extreme of a pastor or something religious of nature, there's a widespread lack of understanding as to how far these religious freedom bills go. >> that exception is in law today it's a mattered of settled law today in this country, if you are in a religious denomination that doesn't want to perform certain kinds of marriages, you don't have to. this is a smoke screen that the republicans are trying to set up right now. because, you know it's an issue, like a side issue.

i think jeb bush i think it was inarticulate but i think he gave the answer he wanted to give. he wants to leave himself some breathing room on both sides so if he can get the republican nomination and the general election, he can soften his position. i think no one should miss that point. >> i think it's a mainstream position. >> the best thing that can happen for republicans is a widespread very broad ruling from the court on marriage so it takes the issue off the table as much as possible. he is looking for a way to have it both ways. >> i think most americans do not want gays to be discriminated against and they do not want christians to be compelled to violate their rights of conscious. >> that's exactly fine. that's exactly fine. what if it's a catholic operated hospital. do they have the right to deny hospital services to the patients who come in an emergency room? >> what if people who say religious beliefs disapprove of interracial couples or --

>> now we're getting off top pick and we're out of time. many thanks to richard socarides. thank you very much. obama could be racking up the most far reaching accomplishments of any president on a big issue facing the nation. by comments about hands up don't shoot got some attention this week. i have more to say about that after this. looking for one of these? yoplait. smooth, creamy, and craved by the whole family. if you take multiple medications, a dry mouth can be a common side effect. that's why there's biotene. it comes in oral rinse spray or gel so there's moisturizing relief for everyone. biotene, for people who suffer from a dry mouth.

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protesters rallied again in ferguson yesterday. michael brown's father led demonstrators on a march to the ferguson police department carrying a coffin replica. on friday the ferguson police department got a new interim chief. all part of a series of changes coming to the town in the wake of the justice department's

recent report detailing rampant racism throughout local government and law enforcement. it was the other doj report the one that examined what happened in the encounter that happened between darren wilson and michael brown that forced me to come to terms this week with its conclusion. the doj's investigation forced me to deal with two uncomfortable truths. brown never surrendered with his hands up and wilson was justified in shooting brown. according to department of justice review evidence supports wilson's claim that brown reached into the suv and punched and grabbed wilson. that brown and the officer fought over the officer's gun. that brown was moving towards wilson when wilson shot him. that ballistic and dna evidence did not corroborate the hands up and surrender story line. hands up don't shoot became a mantra of a moment but it was wrong built on a lie. it's imperative that we continue

marching for and giving voice to those killed at racially charged incidents at the hands of police and others. but we must never allow ourselves to march under the banner of a false narrative on behalf of someone who would otherwise offend our sense of right and wrong. harry siegel wrote as potent as the black lives matter movement has been in driving media conversation, preaching to and amplifying the voiceses of the converted, it's done little to convince americans not already on board for the need for change. joining me now, author of that piece, harry siegel of the new york daily news along with my panel. harry, thank you very much for being here. i laid out my argument. tell us more about the argument you're laying out. >> i think it's a cousin to the one you did in a lot of ways. there just is overwhelming numbers, if there's a movement to try to create significant broad change not just to

reform, say, this one town. the rasmussen members are overwhelming. 82% of black people think police officers act in discriminatory ways against black people. 30% of white people. that is a massive, massive gap. those numbers just sort of keep coming. 61% of all americans say that the media hypes up shootings when a white officer shoots someone who is black. and without shifting those numbers, i think getting to any sort of real and systematic change becomes nearly impossible. so, this is not all in the black lives matter movement obviously. some of this is racism. some is apathy. there's lots mixed in you can't separate policing issues from other ones. but there's a certain bottom line that for all the attention

and drum beat this has received we are not seeing anything like systematic changes. it's hard not to see going through this again when we get to the next victim. almost every victim is a complicated story. this is the rare instance because of this false narrative and because of the attention that drew because of the story johnson told that was wrong, and was repeated and amplified by many other witnesses who were not telling the truth as we now understand it. >> as detailed in the doj report. >> right. we have a truth of what actually happened. and continuing to put that banner out, i don't think of hands up don't shoot, i don't think that's compelling to people who are not already on board at this point. it distresses those who are paying attention. >> moved from hands up don't shoot to i can't breathe, eric garner who was killed a month before to black lives -- to black lives matter. i think one of the reasons why

the mantra exploded as it did beyond ferguson is because you had eric garner, tamir rice levar jones. it wasn't just about michael brown anymore. it was about all of these black men who were losing their lives in one way or another either by police officers or other folks. i know you want to jump in real quick. >> jonathan i know you received a lot of push back from people on twitter and social media for your article. i meenan i think it's commendable and admirable that you are acting on your conscious and willing to say this is where i stand now. putting that out there. and i do not disagree with you. the findings from the doj reports are credible. we can't accept the findings of one report and disavow the findings from another. i still think the report about the events there, when we get to talking about the actual

instances -- circumstances of the incident, whether or not he had his hands up the altercation of the car, those are still based on all the eyewitnesss who they deemed credible. but the two people who saw the entire thing, darren wilson michael brown, only one of them was able to give his full side of the story. i'm not saying the doj report is not credible. i believe it is. i think structurally it does lack the input that it was unable to get from michael brown. >> whether or not he had his hands up i acknowledge he did go into the car, there was a struggle that he -- all these other things. i don't dispute any of that. i think the movement is so much bigger than michael brown. i feel my gut reaction is at the most basic level. michael brown was a teenager. michael brown was an american citizen. michael brown was a human being, he did not deserve the spontaneous imposition of a death penalty because he was walking in the street and had shop lifted some cigarellos.

we may never have a perfect victim. tamir rice who was 13 -- >> 12. >> even he is under scrutiny because people are saying he shouldn't have been playing with that gun. >> there's plenty of perfect victims. tamir rice is very close, in a park playing with a toy gun like little boys have always done. you have this huge disparity in the numbers. it's not like there's a recent round of this happening with police. we're playing closer attention. secondly, there are real innocents involved then there are ambiguous cases like this. the question is how you start changing minds, how you get people on board who have not been there. it's distressing when you write something like you did, jonathan, try to get to an honest point, speak to people who were not paying close

attention attention and you get the push back. one other thing is the reason the body was out there for as long as it was, they go over this. there's two reports of gunfire. the detectives are trying to deal with the scene. the detectives always in any homicide want a body to stay on the scene. once it's moved, it's moved forever. there's crowds moving in, upset and understandably and chanting kill the pigs. all of this is happening simultaneously. that also becomes part of the narrative. it takes people who maybe would be in a position to be sympathetic and understand what happened and these true victims, the disaster in some ways that american law enforcement has been for a long time and it pushing them off. >> can i say -- >> real fast. >> it's an interesting media story. i commend you for writing sort of calling them like you see them. the right has this problem, too.

we'll try to make a hero out of george zimmerman or clive bundy, people who represent our cause ostensibly but not the people we want to represent us. tribalism is a problem where people go to their corners. i commend you for not doing that. >> i thank you all for your commendations. i have written about this so many times, so many cases. if i'm going to have any credibility the next time this happens, there will be a next time, i have to deal with the truth. when people call on the justice department, as they did, after michael brown was shot and killed to come in and investigate. eric holder's justice department to go in and investigate. when that report comes out, you've got -- you have to read it, find it credible. if you're not going to find the justice department credible eric holder's justice department credible, i don't know who you're going to believe. i choose to believe something or

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it's been a little more than two months since jeb bush reportedly said if someone wants to run a campaign about '90ss no s no nostalgia it is not going to be successful. what if it wasn't former president clinton's wife who wasn't running but the vice president? this week, vox made the case for al gore to run for president,

arguing that gore offers a genuinely different view of what the democratic party and american politics should be about. not just because of his work fighting climate change. the issue he's been most closely associated with since leaving office in 2000. but also for his embrace of technology and visions of the future which are laid out in his most recent book "the future." let's not get ahead of this week's speck la. after ezra's piece in a "new york times" story, close confidantes told alex seitz wald that gore is not running, not even thinking about it. joining the panel is msnbc contributor ezra klein with vox is here to defend his piece. thanks for being here. >> good morning. why 15 years later do you think al gore is even a viable possibility? >> one, i don't think al gore is going to run. he's never shown any interest not for about a decade of getting back into politics. let's put that to the side. i'm interested in a thought

experiment of al gore to me the democratic party and american politics to some degree in general is -- needs to have a conversation about what it's really about. after obamacare, the safety net the liberals have been trying to construct, since fdr and the broad architectural sweep, after the iraq war, after the sort of rapid rise of gay marriage across the country, the civil rights battle that a lot of liberals believed they would have does not appear to be as much of a battle, there is a question of what is the democratic party's organizing mission what is its big effort over the years? you have hillary clinton, who is running. and i think the danger there is not that she won't have a good answer but her answer, rather than be part of the debate will be the end of the debate. the argument for gore is that arguably the biggest issue facing not just america but the world in the coming generations

is climate change. and while i don't actually think doing anything about climate change is a political winner, i'm pessimistic that the world will do something about climate change in time that's an argument worth having. it's an argument worth having to say we should be focused on something bigger than tweaks to public programs as they exist now. instead of thinking about what we're doing to the planet. >> i know you said in your answer this was -- you really don't think al gore will run, and this was more of a thought experiment. the fact we're having this conversation and that people keep pushing or pining for senator elizabeth warren to get into the race conversations about vice president biden. how much of that is a reflection on hillary clinton and sort of a dissatisfaction that she's the only choice for the party it seems? >> i think there's a bit of a vacuum right now. it's a bit early to say whether people will be satisfied or dissatisfied with clinton. until she announces and begins

running, the media, you and me r in this odd position of writing about 2016 without anything happening in the 2016 race. we hit that moment -- >> it's not even 2016. >> right. >> we hit that moment where there's interest in talking about the presidential campaign but no actual presidential campaign to talk about. we'll have to see. when she announces which i believe will be in april from the current reporting. and begins campaigning, my hunch is she'll campaign aggressively against republicans to consolidate the democratic base and see what democrats are pining for more options or whether they're uniting behind the flag of hillary clinton and training fire power and fury on jeb bush or scott walker or rand paul or whoever is leading in the republican primary. the problem for me she might be a strong candidate. at the same time i think democratic party, it's a healthy process for parties to have to intellectually renew every so often, and the strength of her candidacy, which is a

juggernaut, will keep that prostresspro process from happening. >> emily, what do you think? will this '90s nostalgia help or hurt? >> this discussion coming out about the e-mails or al gore is because there's a vacuum of discussion that we want to be talking about a presidential candidate but there's no active campaign so we're looking for things we can pull up again later. different narrative later to use what is interesting about what ezra brings up in this environmental first argument for al gore is if you want to recreate that obama coalition, two key groups you need millennials and hispanics. those two groups have higher poling groups in the environment than any other group. i don't know that 2016 is ready for it. but it's an interesting thing to put out there. >> i think that also it's not just, say, a dissatisfaction with hillary clinton that i think drives a lot of this thinking that's going on now. i think it's a sense that people

know if hillary goes through the primaries with a challenge t will make her a better candidate. on certain issues whether it's income equality or climate change, having some degree of competition will battle test her for the general election that would be good for her and for the party. >> you want a battle tested hillary clinton? >> i'm curious about the desire to have this. republicans for the last two cycles have had a clown car where we're fighting over all different issues. you could argue free market and debate makes people better. but on the right, has it worked out? is it better to have a candidate like hillary who you sort of know is the heir apparent? republicans have had the opposite. we had this big sort of identity crisis and trying to figure out where the party is i'm not sure it's been a good process. >> hum. >> on that note. ezra klein from vox, thank you very much for being here. e! >> thank. if al gore's environmental

legacy is an inconveneient truth, what will obama's environmental legacy be?

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on the largest most reliable network. >> if i can change how the country thinks about this as a serious and immediate threat not some distant, vague thing, if i can encourage and gain commitments from the chinese to put forward a serious plan to start curbing greenhouse gases, if i'm able to do those things now, when i'm done we'll still have a heck of a problem, but we will have made enough progress that the next president and the next generations can build upon it. >> was president obama in an interview with vice earlier this week and a top priority of his second term dealing with environmental change.

perhaps the biggest challenge coming up at the fall's u.n. climate conference in paris. the stakes are high and people familiar with the talks say if paris doesn't do a deal another 20 years could go by before another agreement is reached with the effects of global warming mounting. it's not just abroad that president obama hopes his climate action takes hold. in the u.s. the president using executive order this week to cut the government's greenhouse gas emissions by 40% over the next decade. but as the "new york times" carl davenport reports, the republicans won't let him get away with executive orders and multinational agreements without challenge. senator mitch mcconnell is intent on blocking president obama's changes across the country. senator mcconnell wrote a letter on how to fight president obama's epa regulations. even on friday as the first ever guidelines for fracking on federal lands were introduced,

27 republicans blocked the rules from taking effect. it's clear president obama would want a strong environmental legacy, but does he have enough time? joining the panel is coral davenport, energy and environmental reporter for the times. you wrote a story a couple months back with a sentence that struck me. it goes like this president obama could leave office with the most aggressive far-reaching environmental legacy of any occupant of the white house. you were writing about the president utilizing the clean air act at the time. but we're still at the crux of the presidential -- the president possibly having the most lasting legacy. how do you think that stands right now? >> so the president has used already the authority of the clean air act to propose a set of environmental protection agency actions that could do

more for climate change than any president ever it pushed through it could cut greenhouse gas emissions, it could trigger transformation from fossil fuels to renewables. the question is whether those will stand up. those regulations are set to be finalized this summer. states will still have to implement them. there's a lot of political, legal, legislative hurdles ahead. so he's done what he can. the question now is are they going to stand up? are states going fight? how will they be implemented? >> you say legal and legislative hurdles remain. that leads me to think about republican obstructionism. how much of that has hurt the president at this point? >> the president went ahead and used his existing authority under existing law to put forth these regulations. he did not have to go through congress. he didn't need congress to get them done. there's not a lot that congress can do to straight up block the

regulations. though republicans hold the majority in both houses they don't have enough -- they don't have a filibuster proof majority or the majority to stop the presidential veto. the biggest challenge is really going to be the courts. whether these regulations are going to be challenged in courts almost certainly in the supreme court. and that's going to be a big part of what determines whether they stand or fall. >> there's something else the president said in his vox interview. let's listen to that. >> i guarantee you that the republican party will have to change its approach to climate change because voters will insist upon it. >> i'm sorry that was vice news not vox. do you see that kind of upswell happening now? >> polling consistently shows that a majority of american voters think that climate change is real. support policies to do something about it.

even within the republican party, about half of self identified republicans think that human cause climate change is real and support government action do something about it. the question is whether that rises to the level of a major issue in political campaigns. polling also shows that though voters care about this and they support action on it, it's not necessarily the highest priority. i think we'll see a shift if voters start to really identify the impacts of climate change as an economic issue. the economy is always the number one issue for voters. if and when climate change is really identified as something that is costing states and communities and taxpayers money, we might see that shift. you know hard to say whether that will happen in 2016 or not. >> coral davenport with the "new york times," thanks for being here. >> great to be with you. a new fragrance may get you and your significant other in

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>> i want to update you on a couple stories we've been following in brooklyn firefighters believe a hot plate caused the house fire that killed seven children in an orthodox jewish family yesterday. they say the kid's mother used a hot plate to warm food while observing the sabbath. the mother and a 15-year-old child escaped the fire by escaping from a second floor window. the man who allegedly attacked officers at the new orleans airport on friday night has downed. he was shot three times after witnesses say he was swinging a machete and spraying wasp spray. he was found carrying a bag loaded with molotov cocktails. stay to msnbc throughout the day for the latest news. first self-serve frozen yogurt franchise. and now you have 42 locations. the more i put into my business the more i get out of it.

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all right. there's a lot going on this morning. let's get caught on some other

headlines making news. first is ted cruz. ted cruz to announce presidential bid on monday. for real. not even an exploreatory committee, he's going all out. >> it's a good move. if you're the first one to do it, it's unorthodox nowadays. take ted cruz seriously. he's a very compelling figure to the base. we were talking about winning primaries in places like iowa. he's for real. >> emily, what do you think? >> winning primaries in iowa like michele bachmann. >> she didn't win the caucus. >> the straw poll. >> yeah. >> ted cruz if nothing, he's bold. >> that's very exciting. >> out of the gate. >> he's bold. >> 4% of people support him so far. he's like third tier noor group of people they'll be thrilled. >> he's running for people from an institution that nobody likes, congress. >> and he's been there for a cup

of coffee. this is -- there's going to be a lot of people who say, look what happened with president obama. >> that's a compelling argument. we need a governor or something. >> just because you've been there for a cup of coffee -- >> and despised by colleagues. >> that may help him on the stump. >> let's -- >> matt you're spinning this so well. i'm impressed. >> let's move to the next story, "new york times." reporting jeb bush's team plots vast effort to win florida. according to the "new york times," jeb bush has a plan code named homeland security for his florida blueprint. when i read this i'm thinking rudy giuliani in 2008 all over again. you can't put all your eggs in the florida basket can you? >> you can't. but if he wins new hampshire, loses south carolina and wins florida he's off and running. >> what if he loses iowa new hampshire and south carolina. >> either way he can't lose

florida. the demographic there's are shifting. marco rubio is younger. and marco rubio has a weakness on his position with the new cuba policy. the older demographic is fading away. the younger generation is much more open. even the demographic of latinos is changing. >> which helps jeb, jeb's wife is mexican/american, not cuban. he has a different angle than rubio and cruz. >> he better win florida. >> you can't win your homestate what will you win. >> ezra klein 15 years later asking that. >> the other thing about jeb and putting florida, everything on florida, bloomberg did focus groups. i think hallperin did a focus group in new hampshire of voters. he asked them what do you think about jeb bush? none of them raised their hands and don't like him.

if he can't win new hampshire, you agree with me. if he doesn't win iowa new hampshire, south carolina or comes in second he's toast. >> i don't think you can just show up in florida and win that. liz maher got in trouble, but we put emphases on these early states. you can't lose two or three and come back. you don't have to win all of them, but you have to win some of them. >> to stay competitive. >> i have to cut this conversation off because we have something serious to discuss. "wall street journal," burger king japan bottling its flame grilled fragrance. they will sell a flame grilled burger selling fragrance in its stores on april 1st. i hope that's a joke. look at that ad. no whoppering no life. >> oh. >> that's all kinds of ridiculous. >> would you -- one, matt raul would wear it. >> i'm all about the natural

pheromone. i think the cologne masks the manly scent. >> i want a cologne that smells like beer. >> and emily, would you take a guy seriously -- >> this is my worst nightmare. i can't think of anything more disgusting. >> on that we have to go. up ahead, dick cheney reveals a private moment between him and president bush in playboy magazine. another hour of news and politics is still to come after this. better things than the pain stiffness, and joint damage of moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis. before you and your rheumatologist decide on a biologic ask if xeljanz is right for you. xeljanz (tofacitinib) is a small pill not an injection or infusion, for adults with moderate to severe ra for whom methotrexate did not work well. xeljanz can relieve ra symptoms, and help stop further joint damage. xeljanz can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. serious, sometimes fatal infections and cancers

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week for the affordable care act. and where the obamacare kid is five years later. marcellus owens joins us. we begin with the long delay on the confirmation of loretta lynch. it's been 134 days more than four months since lynch was nominated in november. it's been another three weeks since the judiciary committee voted her out of committee. even longer since her confirmation hearings. despite bipartisan agreement that lynch would be a good attorney general, majority leader mitch mcconnell has not allowed a vote. it's explanation is that president obama threatened to veto a human trafficking bill a bill democrats oppose over language on abortion that is only the most recent excuse before that it was the president's immigration policies with politico writing in february that her nomination has effectively become a proxy war over the president's unilateral moves. kristen welker is live at the white house. what is the president doing to get lynch confirmed?

>> reporter: according to senior administration officials we know there have been presidential-level conversations about getting lynch confirmed. i expect that type of outreach will continue in the coming days. we saw the president escalate his rhetoric this weekend in his weekly address. he urged congress to confirm lynch and has also accused republicans of holding her nomination hostage. so really strong language there. the president made some of his most forceful comments on the subject in an interview with the huffington post. >> they say they're holding up her nomination until they get to this human trafficking bill with a controversial abortion provision in it. would you encourage democrats to let the bill go through so you can get a confirmation. >> you don't hold attorney general nominees hostage for other issues. >> reporter: there you heard some of that strong language. i think you will continue to see the president make the case for lynch publicly and privately. we'll see him speak about it

more this week. his top officials are speak being this forcibly. josh earnest telling reporters on friday during a briefing that i attended that lynch's nomination has been held up now for more than 130 days. and that's more than the amount of time for the five previous nominees. white house officials also noting that there's been few people who have really mounted any serious opposition to her qualifications. both sides, though still dug in. senate majority leader mitch mcconnell continuing to insist lynch won't get a vote until the senate passes that anti-human trafficking bill which will be blocked over that abortion provision that you mentioned that underscores how polarized and guidedivided remains. >> thank you. have a great morning. the call for lynch's confirmation have made for an odd pairing. bringing together the president and one of his chief antagonists. former new york city mayor rudy giuliani was most recently in the headlines for questioning barack obama's love of america. but this weekend he went back to

his roots, back to when he was federal prosecutor like lynch. in a conference call giuliani said as a republican and looking at the constitution, i find loretta lynch not only an acceptable appointment but i find her to be an extraordinary appointment. the reason giuliani finds lynch so extraordinarily qualified, it's not hard to find. they're the accomplishments she's wracked up as u.s. attorney for eastern new york for the last five years. accomplishments that president obama outlined during that interview with the huffington post. post. >> she's been a great prosecutor. she's prosecuted terrorists in new york. she has gone after organized crime. she's gone after public corruption. her integrity is unimpeachable. >> come on now. these two folks can agree, why can't the senate? the panel is back. raul reyes with the "usa today." matt lewis from "the week." emily tisch sussman with the

center for american progress and my old daily news colleague, michael daly. michael, talk about loretta lynch and why somebody like rudy giuliani would so strongly support her. >> she's the real deal. the other thing is for all her accomplishments, i've never seen her showboat unlike all the manhattan guys they always do. >> like rudy giuliani. something about you get in the southern district all of a sunday you have to stand on a box or something. her, you never ever heard her talk about herself. it was always about the case. it was always about the law. and i talked to her father a little while ago. a fourth generation baptist preacher. he went up and saw her in a case. she was prosecuting some chinese gangsters. and, you know he says she's not one for the spotlight, but she

sure hits hard. you know defendants arrive in that court when she was there, they never heard of her. all of a sudden she heard of her. >> raul? >> jonathan there's so much we could say about her record her accomplishments. when luke at some of the cases that she's had here in new york they're so salient to the needs of our justice system today. some of them the president touched on. she prosecuted michael grim for tax evasion. she prosecuted the abner louima case the case called nafia, which was a case to blow up the federal reserve and also a case involving like a slavery ring among immigrants where they were forcing them to work at 7-eleven. when you look at the issues, police corruption immigration enforcement, these are issues they want an attorney general to be familiar with for the 21st

century. >> her record is outstanding. nobody is questioning, even republicans opposing are not questioning her integrity, her intelligence, her grit. to go through all of her qualifications time and time again almost makes it seem like we don't know why she's being held up. so we need to make the case for her. it is very clear why she's being held up. it is politics at its worst. >> no politics is making sausage. i want to read you an editorial yesterday in the "washington post" about the republicans bill the human trafficking bill and the headline is democrats are the new party of no. i think everything you said about lynch is right. politics, let's make a deal. politics is about making sausage. why don't the democrats give the republicans this human trafficking bill -- >> the additional abortion -- >> in return they should confirm lynch. that's how politics works. >> that's how we work? for the longest --

>> all right everybody. michael daly. >> you choose the top cop in the united states of america. you are going to be playing politic? >> it's compromise, not politics. >> the best person to enforce the law. when those people who are out raping killing, selling drugs, plotting terrorism, that's not politics that's -- why are democrats blocking the human trafficking bill? give the republicans something. >> you have to go back to the heart of her is her brother. he was a s.e.a.l. before there were book deals, movie deals, when they were the quiet professionals. that's what she is. >> how come republicans are never supposed to get anything? >> they get the whole world. >> go to any country club what are you talking about? come on. >> let me read something that senate majority whip john cornyn said about lynch's nomination. unfortunately peoples hearts have hardened to the point that

they are unmoved by policy points and who would benefit and who would hurt by blocking this nomination and now it's leverage. i think they're talking about what you're talking about the human trafficking bill what precedent does this set for the next administration. >> we will hold nominees hostage because the republicans want to block this. get something in return. who is -- >> that's politics. >> we could go ahead with her nomination. there could be discussion on this bill it does not have to be an either/or thing. >> they are moving ahead with some nominees while they're on this bill. they are moving ahead with some. >> if bill clinton were president, republican would get something she would get confirm confirmed. why can't the republicans get this human trafficking post which the "washington post" yesterday were in favor of. >> they are moving forward on nominations regardless. they're not fovmoving forward with her nomination. in the last congress we looked

at a block of republican and said who is still there of the old guard who believes the president gets to appoint who he wants in the position. it's diminishing by the day. >> we have eric holder in the meantime. >> i know. that's the beauty of it all. >> holder must get up every morning and laugh. >> i -- yeah. i don't know if he's laughing at this point. i think he's ready to go. >> he's exhausted. >> it's pretty good from his point of view. you guys are keeping me in office. >> we can't have this discussion without talking about senator dick durbin of illinois the senate minority whip. he said loretta lynch, the first african-american woman dominated to be attorney general is asked to sit in the back of the bus when it comes to the senate calendar. did he go too far? >> it's horrible rhetoric. it has nothing to do with it. >> but the intensity of the whole thing in washington it all goes back to race. it all goes back to these guys

don't respect obama as the president of the united states. he's been elected twice. don't look at him as legitimate. >> come on. republicans accused bill clinton of murder? come on. >> they don't mind her being the bus driver they don't want her running the campaign. >> they accused bill clinton of murder. >> why did it get so nasty? so intense. >> why was it nasty against george w. bush and bill clinton? >> we love you, but stop yelling at us. >> i'm sorry, it's only four against one here today. >> it's a legitimate concern to raise when no one questions her accomplishments, her expertise, her record. what is the elephant in the room? if it's not a racial elephant possibly towards her, it's towards president obama. >> pass the human trafficking bill. >> before it was the human trafficking bill it was the immigration orders it was

everything before it. this is -- it's tough to take seriously that she is being held up but of the human trafficking bill. there's a lot there. >> it will be something else in two weeks. >> will be something else. >> if you go back to when she was in high school she arrived at an almost whiteall white high school. took a standardized test, did so well they thought she must have cheated. asked her to take it again, she scored higher. it's not race with a white hood on, but it's race making assumptions. when she became a wall street lawyer, she would arrive for depositions and people would assume she was the stenographer. it's that kind of race you talk about. to not be honest about that pervading everything in america, particularly the congress, is nuts. >> michael, on that note we'll end. the story you told about her and the tests, all i kept thinking you go girl. thanks to michael daly with the

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every election cycle there seems to be a new technology service that changes the dynamic of the moment. in 2008 it was facebook where a candidate could direct market and mobilize large groups of people with two clicks of a button. in 2012, it was the twitters, a conduit for quick and prolific news and thought sharing from a campaign's every twist and turn. what will be the medium to break through in 2016? it's possible it's the one that has been in the news a lot recently. meet the latest hip app of the month, meerkat. a live streaming video service

that allows you to life cast your day from the comforts of your phone. anything from your stroll down the street to the inner workings of your pizza business like frank's pizza house. and there is perhaps some staying power in the political realm. just this week 2016 likely's jeb bush senator rand paul, martin o'malley became early adopters of the service, live streaming events and meet the voter stops. on thursday msnbc's casey hunt conducting the first ever interview with a white house press secretary using the service. there is a certain novelty to seeing a raw unedited look at daily events but is it just a novelty or something more? will it mean more 47% moments are caught on tape this election cycle? let's talk about it. joining our panel we have msnbc political correspondent casey hunt who i think is meerkating

her appearance right now. >> we are i can pull it in. see? this little thing. giving people a close-up shot of my nose. >> i have to ask you to emulate katie couric casey, can you explain what meerkat is? >> i can explain what meerkat is. i have learned a lot about it myself over the course of the last week. i had not done too much with it since then. the kernel of this technology will be out in other apps as well. twitter owns one called perry scope, msnbc owns one called string wire. this makes it possible for you to live stream video from your phone with literally one click of a button. and with the broadband infrastructure available on the phones t makes it so you can broadcast from wherever you are at any point. and this is a dramatic change from 2012. as you pointed out. i was talking yesterday with the former digital director of the romney campaign zack moffett,

he was talking about how they tried to execute something like this during the 2012 campaign. they tried to hire a staffer to cart around at the time what was a backpack that would allow them to live stream the romney events. they found it was so hard to do that they eventually gave up on this. and this will change that dramatically and entirely. >> here's the thing that's confusing me about this whole thing. it's live streaming. can you save the videos or is in like video snap chat? once it's done it's done? >> there's differences ace s ass among the services. with meerkat, the user can save the video to their phone. at the end of this i can have my lovely one-on-one shot with my meerkat users. but unless they figured out how to record it separately, it won't be saved anywhere else. there are websites popping up that seem to save them. we at msnbc figured out how to

roll on them, which was quite a feat for our tech teams, otherwise it just disappears into the ether. let's >> let's roll some sound you did with josh. >> a lot of this is us reacting to a dynamic media environment. even in the short six years that president obama has been in the white house, we have seen dramatic changes across the media landscape. and that has challenged us to be creative and to think differently about how we connect with the american people. >> so casey, given what josh said there in the interview with you, how hard was it to get him to agree to that meerkat interview you did? >> he was pretty good sport about it. this started out casually. i had put up on meerkat some white house briefing on monday. a lot of people are interested in the public service aspects of

this one person popped up and said i have not watched the white house briefing in years, here i am watching it on my phone in line at the grocery store. i sent josh an e-mail after that saying would you be game for trying something out and doing an interview on this new service? to their credit they were interested, game. we got it scheduled for friday. i think that you know as you saw him explaining there, one thing he said to me also is he has learned over the course of the last year working for first senator obama and then candidate and now president obama that these kinds of new technologyies, while they bring pit falls they are often open to the risk. >> meerkat, the way casey has explained this a positive impact or a pernicious impact on the 2016 race? >> maybe both. as casey mentioned, there's greater transparency. if it becomes more pervasive, i

could see more public figures anyone from local mayors to national campaigns becoming so guarded at all times. even more than politicians traditionally are. because they're so hyper aware of someone -- someone could be doing that with their phone. so i -- >> yeah. the media in general to be a serious campaign you have to embrace new media that's where young people want to be receiving information in different mediums on their phone. so, they want information. >> so the potential is there. >> the only way. and if you are the campaign you control your message that comes out. the issue is that this opposition that the 47% have generally campaign sends trackers, they recognize them and know when they're in their room. something like this you can do it on your phone. >> it's a double edged sword, good and bad. the game changing element of this is ease of use. we have had live stream for many years, but the average person

didn't have the infrastructure to do it. everybody can do this. it's a game changer. >> casey, now that you have had your meerkat interview with josh earnest, the white house press secretary, who's next? >> we did a great interview with new jersey senator cory booker on friday afternoon that hopefully we'll be able to get online if you want to check it out. he was a great meerkat interview, in part because he's somebody who has pioneered for politicians and using services like twitter, for example. he sort of was able to find out where some potholes were as he explained it to us before the services that his city had knew where those potholes were and to get them fixed. appreciate him being game also to try out the new technology. >> that's not surprising given his history on social media. not surprising he would jump at the chance to do something like that. casey hunt thanks for being here. still ahead, dick cheney getting reflective thinking about to his partying days and

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♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ great rates for great rides. geico motorcycle see how much you could save. if you graduate from yale you become president. if you drop out, you get to be vice president. >> that was president george w. bush talking about his vice president, dick cheney at yale university in 2001. it's a moment that cheney recalls in his new extensive interview with playboy magazine. fox news correspondent james rosen recorded ten hours of interviews with the former vice president where they delved into issues such as u.s. foreign policy, race in ferguson and, yes, cheney's days hanging out in bars and getting kicked out

of yale yuneuniversity. at the end cheney talked about religion and same-sex marriage. playboy asked him to remember before mary came out and asked him if he struggled when he did. cheney struggled no. and it was a surprise. i mean t wasn't something that was sort of there and nobody ever talked about it. cheney reveals his behind-the-scenes discussion with president bush saying "i always thought george w. bush agonized over it more than i did. when he informed me he was going to support a constitutional amendment basically to ban gay marriage same-sex marriage. i can remember having lunch with him at one point and he was trying to explain to me what he was going to do. he was worried that somehow i would be offended by what he was doing." turning now to the panel, are you surprised by how vice president cheney describes this exchange? does it ring true to you? >> i think it's bizarre. i think it's very strange that he says -- he phrases it that

somehow bush would have been offended. the bush campaign used those same sex ban on the states to turn out conservative voters. she have definitely been offended. >> i wonder how much of that uncomfortableness that vice president cheney is talking about is the fact that this thing that i heard for years, and that is the bushes both president bush and first lady bush, they have lots of gay friends that they love their gay friends, they're supportive and that politics somehow pushed the president into that position to have to do that. that might explain why he was uncomfortable. not to justify it, but assen ex an explanation. >> and not just his daughter he had gay men on staff working for him, as secretary of defense working in high profile positions. the thing that struck me about

the interview, it's unclear whether or not dick cheney -- it's sort of left unclear. president bush felt awkward bringing this up at this lunch, that they were going to go this route in 2004 in terms of sort of turning out the base to win the re-election. cheney doesn't ever say how he felt. the implication is he was okay with it. >> totally. >> but we don't know. >> it's a dispassionate description of something that's an important moment. any time a parent and child, especially an adult child have that heart to heart things can be emotional and volatile. he talks about it as if he weren't there, he puts the emotional awkwardness on president bush. that detachment struck me as odd. >> and it happened again when his other daughter said he was opposed to gay marriage -- >> it's unusual. >> a great way to describe it. >> president obama talked about

thing that would have done differently. he did this on wednesday. do we have that sound? >> i think i would have closed guantanamo on the first day. the politics of it got tough, people got scared by the rhetoric around it. >> i want to bring in what dick cheney said in this playboy interview. he said i can't count the hours we spent on what i considered to be a totally wasted exercise arguing about let's close guantanamo. it's still open today. it's still there for a reason. and i found that quote interesting because it's not still there because the president tried and failed or he realized now that he's in the oval office that he can't close it. congress injected itself into the process, took away money that would allow him to close it. stopped him from releasing anyone into the fall court system where they could be tried

that would allow him to close guantanamo. i think the vice president is being disingenuous there and gliding over the truth. >> he made a few statements that were incorrect because he said everyone in guantanamo was caught in the act or on the battlefield. we know that was not true. there were at least 26 people that the u.s. government admitted who were there because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. >> he also acknowledged that it was not a major concern of his that innocent people ended up. there does the vice president have a point? >> to understand dick cheney and this playboy interview makes it clear. it is to understand at one point dick cheney was an establishment favorite beloved by the mainstream media. at some point he became -- i hate to use the word radicalized. he became very concerned about u.s. security. when he was part of planning for

essentially evacuating the white house, god forbid if there was a terrorist attack there or something. and after 9/11 this is a guy who wakes up every morning thinking the end of the world is near. i think he views the world as a dangerous world. he views it through that prid m. in a way i'm happy that people that we elect are thinking about those things and are worried. it may have also led him down the wrong path with things like iraq. >> he has been tasked with upholding the legacy of the push presidency. from the day that president bush left office we saw some gorgeous paintings. really has been cheney much more so during the first term out there defending the presidency. >> cheney is obsessed with security. in a way i'm glad somebody is. >> come on. it's not like -- by implication you're saying the current

occupant of the oval office is not concerned about security? >> i think anyone who sits in the white house, once they get the briefings, they act responsibly. i think president obama does care. but cheney is obsessed with this. it defines who he is. >> obsessed defines who he is? >> i think so. >> i agree with you 100% on that. we'll have more with our panel in a few minutes. first, an update on the development political story we brought you earlier. nbc news can confirm that texas senator ted cruz will launch a bid for the white house tomorrow. cruz and his family will announce his campaign at liberty university in virginia. more news and politics after this.

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imminent threats. tunisia's government released this video of the gunmen responsible for wednesday's attack at a museum. the video has been edited in some fashion. at least 23 people died in the attack. the gunmen were eventually cooled in a shootout with security forces. isis claimed responsibility for that attack. still ahead a beloved candymaker could be shedding its shell soon. ever since darryl's wife started using gain flings, their laundry smells more amazing than ever. (sniff)

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one of those guys who just can't stop talking. i was downloading a movie. i was trying to download a movie. i have verizon. i don't. i get that little spinning wheel. download didn't finish. finished the download. headphones on. and i'm safe. i didn't finish in time. so... many... stories. join us and save without settling on the largest most reliable network. there's a lot going on this morning. let's get caught up on some other headlines making news with today's panel. president obama spoke with the huffington post's sam stein, and he got to talking about fraternities. let's take a listen. >> you have situations like what took place in oklahoma fraternity brothers caught on video chanting about lynching inglynching. what was your reaction to that video? >> look at any given point on

any given day somebody is doing something stupid out there. in the age of the internet it will attract attention. i don't think this is the first time that a fraternity has done something stupid racist sexist. it won't be the last. what was heartening was the quick response from president borin, somebody i know well and who has great integrity. quick reaction from the student body. >> what do you make of that? at any point someone is doing something stupid. >> word. >> for sure. i went to a college with no greek life we did just fine. that is for sure. >> i did the same. >> i also like things particularly at a developmental point in life where people can -- can come together towards a common goal. that's why i think being on sports teams is good. they serve a lot of purpose in that way. i don't know i would go so far

as saying that we should get rid of them but there's a lot of systematic problems. >> yeah. i'm sort of a rugged individual. the idea of pledging is not in my bag. look, i think president obama is right. everything he said about that was right. people do stupid things. i'm not a big fan of the frat system. but i wouldn't ban them or anything like that. >> there are good things that fraternities do. part of their function is to have social service things that they do. they do promote fellowship that many people need when making that transition to adulthood. i think it's wrong to judge this tiny minority -- to judge the whole organization by this tiny minority of people doing something stupid. there's people doing stupid things in churches. there's people doing stupid things in this building. every where everywhere. >> no, never. the thing about the time now is all the stupid things will being captured on peoples phones. i would say the president gave

props to the person who actually took the video. >> yeah. >> and shared it put it out there. that's the good thing. frats, they have always been there. they've always had people doing stupid things. there are people of conscious that seems who see something happening and they're like uh we'll take a record of this and stir some trouble. on to the next one. this is from the "washington post." columba bush's painful unlikely road from mexico towards the white house. columba is sometimes spoken of as a real life cinderella. there's pride here that the daughter of a farmer's daughter joined the most political family in u.s. history. >> it's history. republicans need a way to make history this time as well. i think she could be compelling and certainly soften jeb's

image, his already maybe too soft image. >> i was going to say. >> for some republicans. the one thing to keep in mind republicans, their hispanic outreach is almost limited to cubans, whether it's rubio or ted cruz. she's mexican-american. that's politically better for republicans for what that's worth. >> to a certain extent. one thing that's mentioned in that article, i'm curious how this plays out with the republican base when it becomes better known. her father entered the country at least one illegal, went back to mexico and came back again legally. what from what i know of her, she holds the potential to be a dynamic figure but she personally is retiring. even when she was first lady of florida she was not out there on the campaign trail. one thing we have seen with the latino electorate they do not necessarily support latino candidates. i'm not sure you can count on latinos turning out to vote for

her just because she's mexican. >> i had a chance to meet both the governor and his wife on the train coming up to new york. very nice. she's very nice. we have to move on to the last one. running out of time. tootsie rolls, they may be going out of business. how many licks can tootsie roll take before melting away? i'm sorry, tootsie roll but i -- i wasn't exactly a fan. >> i'm more into the doughnuts. that's more my thing. >> to get credit from the plate you have to eat it. >> i'm in. >> will you be sad to see tootsie roll go? >> there's nostalgia. for sweets they're kind of low-fat low sugar comparatively. >> only because it's fake. >> that's what i tell myself. >> diet stuff is out. whole sugar is back in. >> are tootsie pops staying?

from what i can tell. >> then i'm cool with it. tootsie rolls are not good for dental work. >> okay. so, i would take a tootsie roll over a tootsie pop, but a blow pop over a tootsie roll. when you get to the center of the blow pop you get the crunchy -- >> thank four clarifying. >> all right. panel. i have to thank you and let you go. enjoy your sunday. raul reyes, matt lewis, and emily tisch sussman. up next you have seen his picture dozens of time thes, maybe it has had you wondering where is the obamacare kid now? marcellus owens joins us next. and now you have 42 locations. the more i put into my business the more i get out of it. like 5x your rewards when you make select business purchases with your ink plus card from chase. and with ink, i choose how to redeem my points

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believe it or not, tomorrow will mark five years since president obama joined with leaders of his cabinet and congress and set the affordable care act into law. >> in a few moments when i sign this bill all of the overheated

rhetoric over reform will finally confront the reality of reform. >> as the president knows, the change did not happen overnight. in fact the effects are still being debated. but one thing is certain, more people have insurance today than they did five years ago. a new report from the department of health and human services says that since the affordable care act took effect about 16.4 million uninsured people have gained health coverage drop get uninsured rate to about 13%. that is according to health and human services secretary sylvia buchlt burwell, the largest reduction. that's not the only good news in health care this week. it's being reported that house speaker john boehner and minority leader nancy pelosi are on the verge of fixing the formula for reimbursing physicians for medicare patients

as well as extending the children's health care program for another two years. john boehner and nancy pelosi actually working together on health care. this could be a big moment. but looming just over the horizon, the supreme court could once again change health care in america. here to talk about the stakes are jonathan kohn and in seattle, 16-year-old health care activist marcelas owens who stood by the president's side when he signed obamacare into law five years ago tomorrow. jonathan, i'm going to start with you. tell us what this week's announcement on the uninsured means and whether it matches up with the expectations set back in 2010. >> sure. well it's a huge development. if you think about -- look back in time to the 1960s after the creation of medicare and medicaid, the number of americans without health insurance pretty steadily grew over time. basically more and more people were losing coverage. this is the way we were headed.

this was the reason we started debating health care reform and eventually it was the reason that democrats and president obama signed the affordable care act into law. there are lots of predictions. it would be a train wreck, it would be a disaster. but here we are, the law is in place and we're seeing a dramatic reduction in the number of people without health insurance. there is a lot of work to do the law is not perfect. but you look at those numbers and i think it's impossible to argue that the primary goal of the law, it is succeeding. >> marcelas as we saw in the 5-year-old video, we were standing there at the desk next to the president when he signed it into law and you became a health care activist after you lost your mom. five years later after obamacare's signing, what have you thought about the debate over health care in america? >> well i haven't really been keeping that close attention with the debate as i should be but i think it is kind of

disappointing to see people are still trying to bring it down even all of the good that it's been doing and that kind of -- >> well let me ask you this. how much satisfaction do you get because you were a health care activist and being so young, you know tugging at the heartstrings of, you know a lot of people but also the president. how does it feel five years later to know that you played a big part in something so big in america? >> it makes me feel so proud and it makes me feel how surprised how long it's been and how much i've grown. looking back i kind of wish i would have appreciated it more. when i was little i kind of understood but i didn't realize how big what i was doing actually until a few years ago and i grew up and i realized what it was. >> hey jonathan let me bring it back to you. the supreme court is going to hear the case challenging the -- i believe it's the exchange --

the exchange market or the subsidies in the health care agreement. what do you think is going to happen? and if the supreme court comes back and invalidates the exchanges, what happens next? >> right. so you know look it's impossible to know what the supreme court is going to do. if the supreme court rules in favor of this law, so what will happen is in about two-thirds of the states states that have not sort of taken the initiative to compliment the law, what will happen is that people who are now getting tax credits to help them buy private insurance, they're getting discounted private insurance through obamacare, that money will stop flowing. they will not be able to get that insurance. you know experts have run the numbers. they have said basically what will happen is you'll have 8 to 9 million people losing health insurance. so here we are,y just added -- we just took down the number by 10, 12 14 16 million depending on which number you want to believe. the supreme court with one decision could take it away from

9 million. and not because there's some fillphilosophical objection to what the law does this is about one dispute about one passage in the text and some enemies have drug up and that it means. >> and what will republican governors do if the supreme court comes back and invalidates the exchanges? >> well that is a very interesting question. you have these republican governors and obviously a lot of them are very conservative. like republicans in washington they hate obamacare and i think they will sit by and do nothing. but you have republican governors in states who frankly understand that millions of their residents are depending on this. if this decision goes through and nothing happens, they're going to lose health insurance. i think you would see republicans certainly in places like iohio and michigan who would be very uneasy about this and very upset. they might try to do something in their state legislatures or

at the very least put pressure on republicans in washington. the problem is the republicans in washington don't seem to be able to do anything. they can't even agree among themselves. >> that's true. marcelas real fast do people still recognize you on the street as the obamacare kid? >> no not anymore. >> you're older now and there you are with the president. marcelas thank you very much. jonathan cohn thank you very much of "the huffington post." and thank you for getting up with us. up next is melissa harris-perry. stay tuned, have a great week.

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