struggle with us, and we won't get there if we're too lazy to keep pursuing it. thanks for watching. i'm al sharpton. have a good weekend. "hardball" starts right now. the war party. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. the right wing assault on president obama and his historic effort to rein in the iranian nuclear program recalls this infamous political ad of the 1960s. >> six, eight, nine nine -- >> ten, nine, eight, seven, six, five, four, three, two, one.

>> question is the 2015 partisan attack on the president's negotiations meant to avoid an all-out conflict with iran or drive this country toward one? are the republican critics offering an alternative route to containing that country's nuclear program or simply a countdown to war? to debate that question tonight i'm joined by david axle rod and ron christie but let's start in tehran. an nbc news correspondent ali arouzi. thank you for joining us tonight. is this going to be as tough a sell for zarif and the others the ayatollahs and the hard-liners here as the president's will be here in the states? >> well, chris, i don't think it will be as tough a sell because for them to be able to sell this deal to be able to make it in lausanne, they needed the supreme leader's blessing without that there's no way this deal was going to happen. the buck stops with him. all of the decisions are made

with him. they have to counter back with him, they have to call back to him to see what's going on. so it's not going to be a tough sell back at home. that's not to say that hard-liners here weren't critical. today an editor of a very hardline newspaper who is also an adviser to the supreme leader said this is a good deal for the west but a bad deal for iran. he made the comparison saying iran gave up a ready-to-go race horse for a broken bridale bridle. >> do the hard-liners in iran do they openly state they want a nuclear weapon arsenal? do they say that? >> no no. they don't openly say that. they're a lot more wily and pragmatic than that. they've always said that a nuclear weapon -- a nuclear program is for peaceful purposes and they don't have any intention to make a bomb. now, saying one thing and doing something are two different things but their line has always been that it's for

peaceful purposes. now there are other hardline factions that aren't really in the throes of power that might throw out things like that but they're on the sidelines. the people that count here never say that openly. chris? >> i think there's a parallel there with our own opposition to the president where some people in this country say they want an alternative way to contain the program and others simply say they want to go bombs away. what impressed me in the news today, ali, was that the iranian authorities allowed president obama's speech yesterday, the bulk of it to be broadcast to the people of iran. >> i can't remember ever seeing an almost full length speech by a u.s. president on iranian tv. yes, snippets here and there, but nothing like this. and what was also unusual was that people were so excited about the news of the deal they would see pictures of president obama on tv and take selfies with themselves with him on the television and post it on social media. if that was to happen during

ahmadinejad's time if somebody took a photograph of themselves with president bush on the tv screen and put it on social media, they would have probably ended up in jail but not today. >> okay. great to have you on. as always great reporting this week ali arouzi in tehran. i'm joined by david axle rod a former senior adviser to president obama and ron christie, a former special assistant to president george w. bush. back in 2007 barack obama and hillary clinton offered two very different answers to the question of whether, without preconditions, they would be willing to meet with the leaders of iran syria and other regimes isolated by the u.s. here's that debate. >> i wouldn't and the reason is this. that the notion that somehow not talking to countries is punishment to them which has been the guiding diplomatic principle of this administration, is ridiculous. one of the first things that i would do in terms of moving a

diplomatic effort in the region forward is to send the signal that we need to talk to iran and syria because they're going to have responsibilities if iraq collapses. >> i will not promise to meet with the leaders of these countries during my first year. i will promise a very vigorous diplomatic effort because i think it is not that you promise a meeting at that high a level before you know what the intentions prp i don't want to be used for propaganda purposes. certainly we're not going to have our president meet with fidel castro and hugo chavez and, you know the president of north korea, iran and syria until we know better what the way forward would be. >> you know, i love that part in your book -- by the way, hell of a book "believer" by david axelrod. >> thank you. >> you talk about that critical moment when you had that debate. you may have been nervous about the president sticking his neck out and saying yeah first answer, yeah i think we should get to discussions with these people who don't agree with us on most stuff and may be dangerous and hillary clinton as

a candidate saying no don't do it. he called you in your meetings saying stick with it no pulling back. i completely agree with you, that was the heart of the campaign right there with the president, future president. >> yeah, no no it definitely -- look he took a position that was difficult to take at the time. took a lot of opposition from our party and the other party, but he was very steadfast about it because his attitude was you don't resolve these situations by not talking. you have to talk to resolve these situations unless you're willing to accept war as the alternative in every instance. america has had a plenty of experience with that in the last dozen years or so. so that's what he believed then he's carried through on it he's been very consistent. i was with him, chris, for two years as we traveled the world and he pressed the case for punishing sanctions on iran which is why we brought them to the table, and now we're on the

doorstep of perhaps something historic that could help us avoid a military conflict. >> let me get ron christie in here. you, worked with the previous administration. your reaction on the last 24 hours? >> good evening. it started to feel a lot more like 1938 where neville chamberlain said the deal he concluded with hitler was akin to peace in our time. the way i look at this is i think the middle east is a lot more dangerous as a result of this framework and we're on the verge of having countries like saudi arabia and turkey try to develop their own nuclear program to deal with the iranian mullahs who still at this very time with this framework won't have to give up any building will not have to give up any enrichment of uranium, won't have to give up a damn thing, frankly, i'm actually really scared by what's going on here. >> if you go in here david, take over. >> no that's so outrageous that it can't just pass to compare to what's going on now to neville chamberlain is so ridiculous.

you know the -- i heard today the under-secretary of state from ron's own administration nick burns on television talking about what a step forward this was, how obama's played the cards just right, that we were able to do what the bush administration couldn't, was to bring the iranians to the table, and no one, no serious person would suggest that they're not giving anything up in this deal. it completely -- it degrades by two-thirds -- it eliminates by two-thirds the number of centrifuges, it degrades the nuclear material they're producing to far less than weapons grade. it has the most intrusive inspections that have ever been visited on any country, and what is the alternative? if we don't have an agreement now, the iranians will go back to doing what they were doing before these negotiations which is to complete their program and then what is the answer? and that's the question -- >> and david, i have to answer

that question. and i stick by my original statement. the president's framework has made the world a lot more dangerous and not safer as a result of this foolish, fool hardy run -- >> let me -- >> chris, let me answer the question. >> no, i want to ask you a question. this reference to munich disturbs me. because i think a lot of people make that reference don't know what they're talking about. now, back in 1938 when chamberlain made that concession giving away the land of czechoslovakia to hitler you compared this negotiation of nuclear arms which we've been in business of since kennedy started the nonproliferation treaty back in 1963 this is very complicated stuff and certainly room for argument on both sides. but how the hell you compare this to giving away half of a country? how do you compare it when the party of great britain fighting the labor party which opposed

that deal and you flip it around and say that this time the tories are the good guys i don't think you understand that history, ron. >> actually i understand that history quite well chris. you and i debated world war ii continuously of the years. >> i do not understand this many ko pairson. >> well i'm sorry you don't understand that chris because it's pretty clear to me. >> what is dishonorable about trying to find -- trying to cut a military deal over military control, actually absolute access by the united nations authorities to go into iran and make sure that this deal is held up as it was intended to. this isn't anything like giving away half a country. there's nothing comparing it to. i'm out of this. >> this is about giving away the security of the united states and it's also about giving away the sovereignty of the united states to the united nations. you say that this is not about the united nations. iran has repeatedly lied to the united states, to the u.n. the

iaea about inspection, they'll not have unfettered access. if iran violates the term of the deal it goes to the five members of the security council. do you really thing that putin or the chinese will -- no they will not. >> david you take this over. i want this debate to be yours. i hope all the people that make these hitler comparisons which are never apt, never apt, we should stop doing that. five years from now, six years from now when this deal holds, we'll come back and say, i said a lousy thing back in 2015, i compared this president to giving way europe to hitler. i'll totally regret that the rest of my life. like you ought to be embarrassed about the iraq war and never apologized for that. you're wrong, wrong, wrong over and over again and you never get ashamed of it and you keep making the most outrageous things. comparing this president to being in bed with hitler is disgusting. >> my comparison to neville chamberlain is the fact that he's giving away the security of the world to someone who is --

you're entitled to your opinion, i'm entitled to mine. i strongly believe that i strongly believe that. >> it's not an opinion. >> of course it's opinion because i articulated it. the iranians have given nothing. the sanctions were working. >> you neither understand -- you neither understand history nor this agreement, ron. you're just spouting republican talking points. and we ought to not make this a partisan issue. this is an issue of whether we're going to resolve this problem through an aggressive agreement that the world can enforce or whether we're going to be drawn into military action that would be catastrophic in terms of the atmosphere in that region and what it would mean for the united states and for the rest of the world. so why not give this a chance? every expert every arms expert that i've seen is treating this seriously. you may have differences on some aspects of it but to say it asks for nothing is completely

off base completely off base. >> go ahead. >> here's vice president cheney telling a crude of new jersey republicans this week there have been a number of times where we've been faced with the potential threat of a nuclear middle east and what's worked is military force and the willingness to go in and use military capability to strip nuclear arms from places such as iraq, such as iran such as syria and unfortunately, barack obama doesn't seem to understand that close quote. john bolton wrote this month, the inconvenient truth is only military action can accomplish what is required. time is terribly short but a strike can still succeed. here's louie gohmert. >> we need to encourage this administration to go and take out iran's nuclear capability. i don't think that we ought to put israel in a position of having to save both themselves

and the united states. i think it's time to bomb iran anything that resembles a nuclear facility with centrifuges, it's time to bomb. >> and senator tom cotton said countries like iran only respond to the threat of military force. let's listen to him. >> israel struck iraq's nuclear program in 1981 and they couldn't reconstitute it. israel struck syria's reactor in 20 thousand 7 they haven't yet reconstituted it. rogue regimes have a way of getting the picture when there's a credible threat of military force on the table that we will not allow the world's worst regimes to get the world's worst weapons. >> where do you stand on all that talk? >> i disagree with some of the commentary we just heard there. i do think there's a diplomatic way to go forward with this. there are two bills that should be taken a look at. both are co-authored by senator menendez from new jersey. the first one would increase the economic sanctions on iran to

get them to negotiate. and the second is a smart move really says to the iranians if you want to initiate a treaty with the united states let's take that back to the united states senate within 60 days and talk about it. there's still plenty of diplomatic route to take here and those two bills should be passed and the president should try twork within that framework. >> david your thoughts? >> the reason that the sanctions worked is because the entire world was unified and the president was able to bring the chinese, the russians and all of europe together in these sanctions. the notion that we're going to hold them -- we can increase our own sanction but the notion that we're going to hold the rest of the coalition together i think is a very dubious proposition. the point of the sanctions was to bring them to the table, they're at the table, there's something on the table that is a workable agreement if they can get the details done. we ought to let them get through this process until june because the program is frozen right now for the first time in a very

long time. we all know that israelis, everybody agrees on it. let them finish this process and make a judgment on it and not bang the drums of war or hold out the possibility of solutions that aren't realistic. >> okay i'm glad i opened this program by showing that tony schwartz ad that infamous ad from 1964 because it was infamous for a reason. this threat of armageddon this use of outrageous references to hitler is what's wrong with the political atmosphere in this country. you ought to be able to disagree over very complicated matters without recalling neville chamberlain, munich and adolf hitler. i think we can have a civilized discussion without that crap. coming up there's something going on in american politics i just mentioned right now where the more you know about politicians the less you seem the like them. maybe it's this kind of conversation. look at hillary clinton's numbers. they've fallen back since she's been secretary of state. she's got her head actually just above water when it comes to

favorability. however, something jeb bush and the rest of the republicans would love to have her numbers, and that says a lot about this rough political season we're heading into. plus republican governors in indiana and arkansas back down on those anti-gay laws showcased as religious protection. but for the republican party heading into 2016, the damage has been done. and the new documentary about frank sinatra. the life career and politics including his relationship with the mob. let me finish with that unthinkable act of brutality and horror at the holiest time for christians over in kenya, a wonderful country. this is "hardball," the place for politics. know your financial plan won't keep you up at night. know you have insights from professional investment strategists to help set your mind at ease. know that planning for retirement can be the least of your worries.

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welcome back to "hardball." presidential politics is a nasty sport. doesn't matter who you were or where you came from. no escaping the notoriety of politics. especially these days. when hillary clinton finished her term as secretary of state she was one of the most liked according to a poll. favorable rating was 67-26. hard to beat that. today after a wicked assault by her enemies and pr mistakes by herself, that margin is down to three points within the poll's margin of error. barely above water. but hillary is flying high compared to the republican field where not a single candidate is viewed high in this country. jeb bush is 20 points under water. we have a series of public

service announcements by nbc called the more you know but in politics today you might call it the more you know the less they like you. unbelievable. david corn from "mother jones" and a correspondent with thep"the washington post" and loni chen was the policy director of mitt romney's 2012 presidential campaign. i'll start with you, loni. i have to tell you, what disturbed me about my friend ron christie's push today was how unoriginal it was. kind of the new thing you do. compared to hitler or getting in bed with hitler or when you can't think of something interesting to say about the complexity to say about centrifuges just call them neville chamberlain. that's why people don't want to run for office today. who wants to put up with that crap? your thoughts. >> yeah you know the public dialogue has reached a point where people don't want to get

into the game. we can have a civil discussion about the reasons we disagree or the reasons we like this but it's tough to get into politics these days. >> nothing dishonorable about trying to make a peace treaty with a country that's been very troubling. it's difficult. we have the good news coming out of yesterday which is new reason for making dishonorable attacks. when the iranians show our president on their tv basically confirming the dignity we're giving them the respect we're giving them, it's the beginning of something a little better than it's been. to call that hitlerian or neville chamberlain stuff is just outrageous. >> everyone's opinions of this were set long before this. including benjamin netanyahu's. obama's try to show that he's got something good and worth selling but he's got to sell that to a congress that is already fixed essentially in saying that this isn't a deal that they want and they may

actually try to sabotage. he's got a very hard sell. >> i think it goes beyond that. i think politics has been driven to an extreme point and i will say it's not even handed. i really think that the obama years, you see the republicans get out there and not just disagree with the president but say he's not an american, he doesn't understand this country, he doesn't believe in american exceptionalism or he's a secret muslim or secret kenyan whatever it is. you can't have an honest disagreement with him on a policy matter, it has to be as far right or extreme as you can go because they're trying to appeal to the tea party base which, if you don't slam them in those terms, then you're a rhino, you're a squish that's why these terms are low for republicans out there because they're being identified with some of the slimeiest mudbali politics we've seen in a while. >> in the lead-up to the 2008 race the field was generally well liked.

giuliani barack obama, mccain, edwards, all had positive ratings, romney did, too. they had an average of 15 point positive, now about a 15 point negative. everybody in politics. get in here lanhee this whole question hillary clinton went from being a respected secretary of state. the minute she left the foggy bottom office she was in the attacks about benghazi went out there, her missteps like you know, what difference does it make and businesses don't create jobs admittedly they were mistakes, but this villainization of her has almost reached a point where she'll have a negative i bet based on trends she'll be announced a negative force about the time she announces, isn't that cute? >> people see multiple hillary clintons. they like one hillary clinton which is the one traveling around the world visiting countries and engaging in

statesmanship, then they don't like the hillary clinton that's engaged in politics. her problem is that's the hillary clinton people are going to see for the next two years. so i think she's really got to figure out how does she take an image that people inherently don't like they don't find to be trustworthy, and they don't think she can relate to them how does she turn that into a net positive. i think that's a very difficult thing to do. >> since we're doing math what percent is her mistake and what is the driving attack on benghazi, that she was asleep at the switch or out having dinner with somebody. >> stand down. >> benghazi has become kind of a shorthand for a whole big set of attacks on her that she was not doing her job as secretary of state or was -- there was even some -- >> it's worse. it said she didn't care about the life of a friend. it's really rough stuff. >> it's very rough stuff. and right before she left the state department in january '13

is when she had that hearing postponed because of her ill health. remember, she fell and hit her head. so they didn'tthe hearing they were going to have and republicans wanted to go after her on benghazi they didn't have it until the end of january. that's when she made that statement, she got very angry and said what difference at this point does it make which will obviously come back to haunt her throughout this whole campaign. >> by the way, watching "house of cards" again and they did the same thing to the first lady the robin wright character. purposefully says i did that to trip you up and i succeeded. >> right, no. and that was her parting shot from the state department. >> we're still a long time out from any elections on both sides, her negatives are going up, the negatives on the republicans are pretty high. >> let's get this straight. this nomination fight will be decided by this time next year. we're not that far away.

don't kill this buzz. don't kill this election buzz. >> chris, what i'm saying is there will be plenty of negative ads to come on both sides, republican violence against other republicans, that by the time we get to the first votes, i think a lot of people on each party will be sick of their candidates, be really upset. hillary, the one thing she has going for her if you assume she's the leader and jeb bush is the leader it's the first woman versus the third bush. >> can we have e-dogs by then. so that scott walker -- e-dogs. some electronic kind of dog. >> a robot dog. >> there's probably money in this for some young genius in silicon valley. up next things we didn't know about frank sinatra. frankie the blue eyes guy is coming here. about his relationship with the kennedys and his ties to the mob. the filmmaker behind that new documentary that's coming out this sunday.

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optum. healthier is here. ♪ you make me feel so young ♪ ♪ so young ♪ >> welcome back. frank sinatra is one of the most celebrated pop icons of the last century, but while his songs are timeless, american classics, the story of his life is a lot more complicated i'd say. this sunday hbo is debuting a two-part series "sinatra all or nothing at all" based on his lyrics in time to mark the 100th anniversary of his birth. the film was the definitive story of an artist who in his

professional and private life could never slow down. here's a clip. >> well aside from having an independent picture corporation, we have a recording company. we have several music publishing companies. we've gone into a titanium manufacturing business. we recently put together an airplane charter service. ♪ come fly with me ♪ ♪ let's fly let's fly away ♪ >> one of the thins that defined sinatra was his inability to stop moving. ♪ let's float down to peru ♪ >> he was always on the move. he was so restless. 12:00, he was bored, let's get on the plane. his plane would fly to las vegas. he'd do something there. >> i'm joined by the filmmaker alex gibney. that's exactly what jack kennedy was like. they had to go to the next room keep moving whether a girl whoever it is a friend even on hz honeymoon, he had to go hang

out with his buddy, he was bored. sinatra was always on the move. >> always on the move. a perpetual motion machine. >> let me ask you about the guy -- well the most famous story in "the godfather" al martino played him. at my junior prom. but here's the question did moretti put a gun in the mouth of tommy dorsey and say your brains or your signature's going to be on the contract did anything like that happen. >> there's nothing that we ever found any evidence for. it's possible but we don't think so. >> how did he get the part in "from here to eternity"? >> ava gardner was desperate to get him a job. he wasn't doing anything. his career was really in a mess. and also eli wallach was asking for too much money and he really campaigned hard for the part. again, that was another one where it was suppose to have been the mob that got him the part but it was really ava gardner, she wanted to get him a

job. >> i thought he was really good in the movies. i'm a movie nut. i like movies like the detective. where did he learn to act? did he ever take an acting lesson? >> no i think it was instinctive for him. though you know for my money, i mean he played -- he played some great roles, but for my money i think his greatest acting was in singing the songs. what i learned most about him was what an extraordinary storyteller in song he really was. i think of his songs as kind of four-minute movies because he really put everything of himself into them and he learned how to breathe under tommy dorsey a special technique, so that he never had to short change a phrase just because he needed to take a breath of air. always about the story for him. that's what made him greater than all the other singers. >> i agree with that. and women, when they hear him hear a guy making love -- i mean making love romantically, not physically. they hear that voice as for

real. i've heard this many times. >> that's right. it's a sense of -- he's seducing you and he's able to make you believe in what he was singing. i think that was his great gift. >> now, j. edgar hoover warned jack kennedy often, bobby warned jack to break off the relationship hearing that famous time he was to go to palm springs and hang out with sinatra. he had built a heliport for him there. and sinatra finds out he's going to hang with bing crosby a republican that weekend. why was that handled so badly. it obviously broke up their relationship? >> i think they were sending a message to frank sinatra and a rather ugly message. through his mob ties you know he helped swing the election for john f. kennedy both in the west virginia primary and then also in the general election in illinois. and when i think sam giancana convinced his mob buddies that had ties with the unions that the kennedys would go easy on us

once they got elected, that wasn't so. bobby made sure of that. but then they were going to send a message to sinatra which is we can't associate with you because you're in bed with the mob, which was a deeply ireonic. he blamed bobby and he blamed joe. he never really blamed jfk though i think jfk was certainly in on it. >> jfk was wonderful, i know this at making somebody else take the hit, usually bobby. this is going to be great. this is america at its best. with all the wrinkles. alex gibney congratulations. i wish everything wasn't on sunday night anyway. but in is. we'll have to watch this. >> thanks, chris. many thanks. >> the long-term damage to republicans from this week's fight over those anti-gay discrimination laws out in indiana and possibly in arkansas, too, and north carolina. this was a long string of trouble they managed to avoid a little bit. but is there scar tissue?

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i'm milissa rehberger. here's what's happening. president obama called the president of kenya this afternoon to express condolences for those involved in a terror attack on a college campus. he told the president he looks forward to talking about strengthening counterterrorism efforts when he visits kenya in july. and nypd detective caught on camera chewing out an uber driver has been removed from the city's elite joirnt terrorism task force. tiger woods says he will now play the masters after taking two months off to work on his swing. back to "hardball." welcome back. two governors are hopinge inging to put their political missteps over controversial religious freedom

bills behind them. they both signed revised legislation of this thursday that's yesterday. politicians in georgia and north carolina are slow tracking pending similar bills in their state house. i love that word "slow tracking," slow jamming. arnold schwarzenegger admonished his party in an op-ed in "the washington post" today writing, i know plenty of republicans who are sensible and driven to solve problems for america. they believe in reagan's vision of a big tent where everyone is welcome. this message isn't for them. but former arkansas governor and likely republican presidential candidate mike huckabee says he's disappointed and concerned that pence and hutchinson capitulated to the advocates of gay and lesbian rights. here he is. >> i think it's a phony crisis. it's been manufactured by the left just as was the war on women. there was no war on women. the left has gotten very good at creating a crisis.

it won't stop until there are no more churches. >> well this week has been a telling political tale of the two wings of the republican party in the preprimary phase of 2016. joining me to talk about it now is our round deny table. jeremy peterses of "the new york times," clarence page and nedra picken. we've got the cream of the crop here. you know? i mean it. i'm going to blow a lot of smoke. seriously, you guys know what you're talking about. is this a killer bee for the republicans or is this that we're stealthily anti-gay true or not as an image. >> if you look at the way republicans hoped this was going to play out a few months ago, a lot of them are saying the supreme court will settle the question of gay marriage in this election cycle. they'll probably take it off the table and we won't have to talk about it. >> in other words legalize it. >> exactly. then a lot of republicans who i think candidates, too, who were counting on that. now it's reared its head again in the form of this religious

freedom legislation and they can't get away from it. candidates like huckabee and cruz who are out there all but saying if there is a supreme court decision legalizing kay marriage states ought to resist it. and that's where i think that this becomes a lot more complicated because you have the religious freedom aspect and you can potentially have a supreme court case. >> here is ted cruz on that very point, here he is who is running. >> fortune 500 is running shamelessly to endorse the radical gay marriage agenda over religious liberty to say we will persecute a christian pastor a catholic priest a jewish rabbi, any person of faith is subject to persecution if they dare disagree, if their religious faith parts way from their political commitment to gay marriage. >> a jewish rabbi even. oh, i'm glad he made that clear. shouldn't make jokes on seder night. but they're really overboard here. >> you have a faction of the

republican party and leadership right now, people like cruz and mike huckabee who are trying to carve out a niche among the other presidential hopefuls. this is a way to do it by appealing to the evangelicals and the teavangelicals. >> but this is a public value. you put a story that says open it means open. the store's open. you know jiggle the door when you come in anybody that comes in that door can buy a hamburger. you can't say, no, you're gay, you can't buy a hamburger here. but if you contract with a catering service, that would seem to be different. when you're saying a priest is in trouble. nobody says a priest is having to witness a gay wedding. nobody says a rabbi. what is he talking about? there's nothing in this law that can be construed that way? >> you're not a republican party

voter voter. some of the religious leaders that we've talked to a story out on the ap wire about how this will persist how this will impact christian colleges like the catholic charities that they're going to be -- not just on gay issues but forced to provide birth control. >> but this was settled with the hobby lobby case. >> this is an issue that evangelicals know they've lost on gay marriage. they know that. this is an issue they're trying to run after in the states. >> they're playing the fear card here now. >> no i'm concerned about what you're saying i wonder if that's a legitimate fear because i do think that the little sisters of the poor should be left alone. >> how do you find legitimate? back in the early days of the moral majority and christian coalition they said we are the majority. that has shifted to where now we're an oppressed minority. >> how about just applying the -- you can't be prejudice

against race if a guy comes into your store and sits at the lunch counter? >> why didn't pence just push for a civil rights clause to protect gays and lesbians as well as other minorities? that's the real question here. if he had done that you wouldn't have an issue in indiana right now. >> that's the thing, that's exactly the point fp if. if you look at what nathan deal did, send me something similar to the religious -- identical, actually, to the religious freedom law that passed in the '90s and i would sign that but that's not what these republican-led legislatures are doing. they want to send these bills that carve out exceptions that are aimed at that are motivated rather by gay marriage. >> again, it's friday night, somewhere along a state highway tonight at a bar that says cocktails, chops and steaks, there will be guys talking about this at the bar and i wonder what they'll be saying. the roundtable is staying with us. up next michelle obama goes

on jimmy fallon to do some dancing. this is always fun.

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can be the least of your worries. with the guidance of a pnc investments financial advisor, know you can get help staying on track for the future you've always wanted. ♪ that's great stuff. we're back. that was michelle obama with jimmy jimmy fallon poking a little fun at each other in the evolution of mom dancing. the first lady appeared on the show last night to mark the five-year anniversary of her let's move campaign but she also opened up. >> are you the good cop or the

bad cop? >> we're both pretty equal. that's the one thing i love about barack. he comes in and can enforce. the other days the girls were trying to clue him into what a group chat was on text. >> already this is going to make me laugh. i wish i had a video. we're sitting around the dinner table and they all kind of looked at him and one said oh dad, you're so detached. >> well that may be a common opinion, actually. we're back. your dad's detached. that's a knock on him. the senators say that about him. >> this is what makes her so down to earth in these interviews. that's what i do with my friends. we make fun of our kids and our husbands a little bit and laugh. this goes to show why she's very likable, way more likable than him and they use her selectively to do fun pieces where she's

out. >> she's pretty attractive too and jimmy fallon is great. >> your thoughts? >> it kind of makes you wonder why we haven't seen more of her. >> i'd love to know that. she's one of the best spokespersons you can have and yet these are rare occasions. >> she is very controlled in her media appearances. she doesn't do it with white house reporters. she goes and does more of entertainment programs. she's going on ellen da jen res and rachel ray. >> is it to stay away from interrogations. >> i think it's her comfort level. her husband has written about how she's said okay i'll let you run for office one more time otherwise it's off to divorce court ash and she and the girls have given up a lot in order to be his family and i think

that's where it is. it's a very personal thing this. >> he talks in the book about the clipped telephone conversations with his wife when you're out campaigning. that's right. you'll be home at some point? >> remember back in the 2008 campaign there were unfair portrayals of her as an angry black woman and i think they need to protect her from that. >> thank you to all of you for setting me up for the opportunity to talk about how much i want to see more of the first lady. we'll do an interview right here. no dancing. just a little chat, a little dish. we'll be right back after this. here in san diego, we're building the first one ever to run on natural gas. ships this big running this clean will be much better for the environment. we're proud to be a part of that.

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let me finish tonight with this horror over in kenya. all the parents who had such pride in the young people killed now overwhelmed with grief. the country has tried to take a moderate course to joining the modern world. the raiders who came down had a goal to kill christians and kill the hope of a country that's trying to do the right thing and trying to develop itself in peace. there's one thing we have to do we have to stand fast with kenya with its president and with the tradition of his father ever since the day of independence. we americans must stand up against terrorism in east africa and do everything we can for a good country, a moderate country, a country that has tried to be a friend against the forces that hate us both.

god bless africa. that's it for tonight. from all of us to all of you happy easter and a happy pos passover. a special edition with chris hayes is up next. >> >>. >> from the fall of the berlin wall to the wedding of a princess to the fairs time man walked on the moon. >> it's one small step for man, one giant leap for mankind. history's greatest moments didn't just happen on television. they were produced. and so it was in january of 2015 when the all in 2016 fantasy candidate draft premiered. it was the show one critic