us. i want to give the last word tonight to a little bit rehema ellis interviewed last night while they were cleaning up. let's listen to him. >> i want this to look like it never burnt down and i want them to rebuild it and i want it to look the way it was. no end to the trouble. let's play "hardball." >> good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. there is more trouble brewing in baltimore tonight. for days now, people in the row houses and the streets have been expecting a report on the death of freddie gray. it was supposed to be out this friday. if there was misconduct, a miscarriage of justice in the death of the 25-year-old, police officers would be held accountable. justice would be coming. in the streets of west baltimore, that belief has been sacrosanct.

people were told the truth was on the way this week. well, it's not coming this week that report is not going to be released publicly this friday. it's headed to the baltimore prosecutor's office. and what will happen there is up in the air. and what will be the impact when the news of delayed action reaches those in the streets. as the news slowly hits home in west baltimore, what will happen tonight? and tonight there is a march on city hall and more demonstrations scheduled through saturday. some organizers say they're expecting 10,000 people in the streets this weekend. at 10:00 p.m. citywide curfew goes into effect again tonight. last night 2,000 members of the national guard were fanned out across baltimore. and tonight less than 300. although hundreds of additional law enforcement officials from pennsylvania, new jersey, and washington, d.c. remain on the streets with the baltimore police. msnbc's trymaine lee is among a large crowd of protesters who have marched from baltimore's penn station to city hall. and he joins us now.

trymaine, do the people around you know there will be no public report or accounting this week, that the friday deadline is not going to be honored, at least the expectations everybody has had will not be met? >> i'll tell you what, chris, i'm not sure what the folks know about that as of yet. it's a huge diverse crowd of several hundred people. now we did march from penn station down to city hall. now crowd around us are marching back towards penn station. as you can see, it's a largely peaceful very diverse crowd. i'm not sure you can hear them, they're saying "all day, all night we're going fight for freddie gray". so the particulars may or may not be lost. some folks will come out here for different agendas, different motivations. some of it is about police brutality. some they're looking for direct answers to the freddie gray killing. but again, it's a large diverse crowd here. and one other thing to note. very scant police presence. we haven't seen many. now all the way from penn station originally, there were no police officers lining the blocks.

only a few streets are blocked off by national guard. but a large diverse crowd, largely peaceful. and surprisingly, but for the whir of a police helicopter above us, no real police presence. >> okay, thank you. hold on there, trymaine. msnbc's toure is also with the protesters now at city hall. toure, are you there? >> yeah, chris, i'm here. we're marching back to penn station as trymaine referenced. this actually started at johns hopkins and then went to penn station, then went to city hall and now we're marching the two miles back to penn station. this has been students mostly, but we see a lot of parents with their small children. used see right there, this has been multiracial. it's been peaceful. folks have wanted to get their frustrations out, get their sentiments out, but do it safely. this is a sanctioned rally that the police knew all about. so they've been letting the people do what they want to do, move mostly wherever they want to move. i'm here with allie wood who is

a sophomore at the maryland institute college of art, indicative of how this is a rally mostly of students. a lot of young women. why are you out here today? >> i wanted to show the community and all the people of the nation basically that baltimore isn't all riots and anger all is the time. we want peace. we want justice, but we don't want it in a way that is going to cause harm to anyone else. >> this is something we've been hearing over and over, chris, from baltimoreans that they want the nation to see another side of them, that we're not all riots. we want to show the nation that we know how to protest peacefully. >> what is that young lady to your left want to see this week from the authorities? >> what is it that you want to see this week from the authorities? >> i want to see an active attempt to change and make a real change. >> but in terms of what happened with freddie gray, is there something you want to hear, the police or the district attorney say or the attorney general say

about what happened, about what they're going to say or do with the police? >> i want them to take accountability with the autopsy report. or at least to have a truthful response to what actually went down. >> i mean, do you think that if there was not an arrest or that sort of thing or an indictment, would you be unhappy? >> not necessarily an arrest, but maybe someone taking responsibility for it and active changes happening within the baltimore police community. >> chris, i think a lot of people out here want to see some sort of action. and that f they don't see it, they'll be displeased. >> what amazes me is the calm out there. i don't think it's going to last myself. because when people realize the report that they expected this friday is not going to be forth with, i think there is going to be a change in the temperature in that crowd. what do you think? >> i think that's right. i think we saw something similar

in ferguson. we something similar in new york around eric garner. that when folks realized that they don't get the sort of accountability that they've been expecting, then they're going to be a little upset. i talked to a man the other day who said we're always asked to be calm and let justice play its way out. but then he said we never get justice. that's what was said to me. >> toure, great report. thanks to the young lady next to you. peter alexander with the protesters at city hall in baltimore. peter, let me go to you, peter. last night, we talked for an hour on this program at 7:00 eastern about how there was going to be a report this friday coming from the police commission. and it was going to give us some information as to what went wrong, how that young man had his spinal cord broken and killed, led to his death. we were going to get some facts, perhaps some accountability. now we're getting the word clarified is the new term at city hall in this city. clarifies the favorite word now that it's not going to be for another week. it's going to go to the d.a. and we don't know if it will ever get public. so is that going to be a problem this weekend? i would think so. >> well, i think you make a

really good point. we spent much of our day in west baltimore. i sat down on the stoop outside a property of tracy and john williams. they're grandparents. they're holding their little granddaughter nevaeh in their hands. nevaeh, heaven backwards. they said we're worried about her. they're worried about their young grandchild and about their own children in this community. they had the day, friday circled on their calendar because that's when they anticipate things could go well or very poorly. they feared violence returning to that neighborhood as a result of the investigation being released. but what they wanted most was justice. they wanted transparency and they wanted accountability. and their frustration tonight, and frankly to be clear with you, the protesters that marched by, we joined them for a period of time. a lot of the people i spoke to in the crowd have not yet heard this news. >> i would say it's going to be a problem. and the people in the news division down here i talked to covering local events up there, they didn't hear until today that there is not going to be a report on friday. everybody has been expecting this report.

and this is going to be a thunder clap i predict that they're sitting on this thing. whatever calm there has been since monday, i don't think it's going to continue. just a thought. >> i think you're right. and one of the individuals i spoke to within the last five minutes said to right now said these officers should be outraged that these six cops that were responsible for the death of freddie gray have not yet been indicted. that's our frustration. this whole city, not just us, law enforcement should be furious about this as well. and i anticipate that's the type of fury and the anger, and we hope it remains peaceful, but certainly what we think we'll be seeing in the days ahead when that news trickles down and when the news is released. >> thank you so much. let's go out to ron allen of nbc news. he is also with the march of protesters. ron, what is happening in your area? >> it's our job as citizens of

the city to make sure that the police are held accountable. >> ron? hey, ron? >> yes, chris, i hear you. i'm sorry, i was involved with a conversation with a professor from the university. again, why are you out here? >> i'm out here because my students are marching. i want to show solidarity with my students, the citizens of baltimore. what shaping to the black community is not white. i want to show my support. >> but there is a process in place there is an investigation going on. you seem to have little faith in that. >> well, my dad is a police officer in the city of chicago. and i grew up thinking i was going to be a police officer. so for me, it's really, really important that i hold the police to the highest level of accountability. and the government is not holding them accountable. the city is not holding them accountable. so i want to be out here and show my support and make sure that the city is holding them accountable. >> the nation is involved in this very contentious, emotional discussion about all these issues. what stops this? what brings everybody together? what gets people like you off

the streets? i know, it's a tough question. there may be no answer. >> i think that there is -- i moved here three years ago and i was shocked to see that there are neighborhoods that have just been systematically cut off from everything that is going on in baltimore. they're really hard neighborhoods to live in. and the city has sort of forgotten them. and i think that we really need to give a lot more opportunities to the people of the city because there is such disenfranchised populations. and without education and without outreach, there is a large group of people that don't have an outlet for their frustrations and the energy of being a young person in the city. so i think addressing the education and focusing on getting those communities the services that they need to thrive is what i would like to see. >> obviously, this is about more than freddie gray and michael brown. it's about education. it's about jobs. it's about so many things. chris, i even heard one woman say this is about the circumstances of black people around the world beyond america and africa.

a lot of depth to the passion, anger, yes, anger, frustration that we're seeing here on the streets. back to you. >> thanks, ron allen of nbc news. let's go right now to pastor jamal bryant. he spoke at freddie gray's funeral the other day, his church, the empowerment temple held an emergency town hall meeting last night in baltimore. pastor bryant joins us now. pastor bryant, i've been so impressed by your wisdom and your prudence in the way you're looking at this incredible event. weren't you under the impression we were going to get a report from the police commission this friday? >> i was. that's what the police commissioner announced initially, that it would be may 1. so everybody has always been on edge the last 11 days, somewhere between christmas eve and doomsday considering what the report is when it comes back. >> well, now we're hearing there isn't going to be a public report this friday. it's going to be sent over, whatever they have come up with at the commission for the police department is going to be sent privately, secretly, if you will.

let's put it this way. not publicly to the d.a.'s office. and that we won't even know for another week at least if then what is going to be done if anything about what happened to freddie gray. >> my hope is that the powers that be will stop announcing dates. because it's almost like milk. it's fresh as long as that date doesn't come. but past it things can get sour. and you can see that things have been mounting, the ebb and tide. if they would just stop releasing dates and just tell us that there is going to be some answer as, simply, how did mr. gray die, it would give all of awes sigh of relief. >> besides you and the mother that had to cuff her kid and whack him out of his mood that day with the hood on and took him out of the action that day, that everybody has been talking about, is any public official doing anything that impresses you right now, any elected official worthy of their office right now? i haven't seen much greatness lately in baltimore. statewide or in baltimore. >> oh, yes.

thing is a purple heart due to congressman elijah cummings, who has been in the streets every day. >> okay. >> meeting with the young people. and he has become a hero. and former congressman questions kweisi mfume. >> what are you doing to improve the situation? >> we had as you just mentioned aforementioned town hall meeting. and we're training even now groups of men who are going to go out at night to get all of these young people out of the street so that we can in fact resume the main thing, that breaking up glass at cvs and turning cars into fire does not get us justice. and so we're trying to keep everybody focused that what we want is complete police reform. we want a revision of the officers' bill of rights. and we want answers and closure for freddie gray's family. >> okay.

great having you on. we hope to have you back again, reverend bryant. thank you. >> thank you. >> i'm joined by charles allison of the root. april ryan we have on all the time and lucky to have her. and for howard dean was governor of vermont and chairman of the dnc. let me start with you, charles, and i get all these questions because i'm tired of people complaining. one of them is the economic piece here. >> right. >> i mean, the fact that these kids are available because the only job is the drug trade. as somebody said about an hour ago on this network, all the cops do is commit a deal to try to shut down the drug trade, which is the only business going on, the only economic activity, which means there is always going to be a war between the cops trying to stop the only way these kid have of making money, which is totally destructive of the community, obviously. >> it is. it is. >> i mean, the drug trade circumstances you can take a casual drive through baltimore and you can see that there is a lit match that was always like halfway to the gas puddle. so there is this sort of outrage is a shock that this went down

in baltimore that we have the social unrest here. but it's been something that has been boiling for quite some time. a citywide rate, combined poverty rate of about 25% in baltimore. the black poverty rate by itself is 24% in baltimore in a state, maryland, which is about 32% black. so you've got these huge social -- these gaping socio-economic disparities that have been there for quite some time and they bubbled over. now you've got this crisis of racial and social economic dimensions. you've got this public safety crisis that is there in baltimore. but it doesn't help that you've also got this instance of management malfeasance on the part of city hall. it's a crisis of crisis management, and not being able to just handle what is happening there in baltimore right now so they can move on to the next -- the next sort of important piece is trying to not only get answers about freddie gray's death, but where does baltimore go from here. what is the next level.

>> i've been watching this situation since i was 5, i think. and what goes on here is it seems if you live in the community and you're having a tough life raising a family and surviving, april, that you got to blame somebody nearby. it used to be the grocers or the business guys that come in to make a buck in the neighborhood. they got blamed, right? we've been through all that. they're called usurpers, outsiders. now you blame the police. and the reality is the cops are in there with a terrible job. their job is to go in there in their cars and stop people from break diagnose law. that's the only job they got. and that's not going to create lat of happiness when the only way you make a living is breaking the law. >> yeah, chris. >> and that's the horror of it. >> that is the horror of it. as we talk, i am getting tears in my eyes because i'm from baltimore. i still live outside of the city. and it's painful. >> did you live in west baltimore, the really tough neighborhood? >> i lived at one point in northeast baltimore and northwest baltimore, i did. and i live outside, we live in the suburbs now. but baltimore city --

>> how did you get out? >> how did i get out? we just worked. and that's the interesting thing. you hit on something. you try to work as hard as you can to stay away from what is anticipated or expected for you as a black person in this country, unfortunately. and it's hard work that gets you out of that. but i'm going to tell you this. i go into that community. my hairdresser is just blocks from penn and north. you know, when i was a kid, there was a nightclub that we used to frequent on that street called odell's. the school headquarters is down the street. you also have this wonderful community called bolton hill, a rich enclave of brownstones just blocks from penn and north. and then you also have -- circumstances that an african american neighborhood? >> no, no it's not. no it's not. >> it was gentrified? >> no, it's not. but there is regentrification in baltimore, particularly when it comes to the harbor area. when governor schaffer was mayor, he bought those houses for $1 around the harbor when it

was rashfield, nothing but dirt and built up the beautiful harbor and built up these magnificent million homes. and the black people who were living in those dilapidated houses that he turned into beautiful homes could not come back, could not afford it. so there is a problem within the black community in baltimore, particularly that area. they don't have arts in the schools. they don't have physical education. many of the children are overweight. then you see a lot of people that have nothing to do. they're on the corner. and i did talk to some people today on that corner on penn and north. and i asked them about the report. they're waiting for the report. and there is a level of expectation it's not going to be met. people are going to be very upset by it. >> i think they have a real problem with a simple fact. don't promise something you're not going to deliver and don't let it simmer out there. governor, thoughts quickly. >> really, i look back at the '60s there are some things here that we could have some hope for. it's nice to see some white people in the street protesting this. you never would have seen that during the riots in '68. this is not as violent as it was in the '60s. i think april has hit it right

on the head. this is not just about freddie gray at this point. this is about economics. 2/3 you go to baltimore, it's like north philadelphia. it's one of the cities that has not come back like new york or some of these other places, washington, d.c. is another one. we have a big economic problem in this country. and a lot of it has to do with race. and we are not doing a good job in our inner city schools. and that's the pass out. so we still have a lot of stuff to discuss that is an echo of 196. and we ought to be using this to discuss that and get something done. and i hope it isn't just papered over with an autopsy report and all this stuff. it's not just about freddie gray. >> first thing we need is the autopsy. still ahead, the pastor who helped fund and develop that senior citizen center that was burned down on monday night. what he thinks what has been happening. he'll be with us in just a minute. and we're awaiting a news conference by baltimore police coming out in just a few moments that will be interesting when they tell us they won't have a report on friday for us. and we continue to watch protesters taking to the streets of baltimore again tonight. this is "hardball," the place for politics.

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welcome back to "hardball." we're back. we're told the police investigation into the circumstances of freddie gray's death would conclude this friday, may 1. it's a date police announced a week ago. we were told that. we were told that. the results of that investigation are of course highly anticipated and will be used to determine if any of the six officers involved with freddie gray on the day of his arrest will be charged in connection with his death. this is the heart of the story right now, the timing issue. but as a baltimore police spokesman now says friday is the deadline toe turn their findings over to the state prosecutor. that doesn't mean there will be any public announcement this friday what happened. let's watch. >> what we are going to do, which is unique is turn over all of our findings, all of our investigative efforts to the state's attorney's office. we cannot release all of the

information from this investigation to the public because if there is a decision to charge in any event by the state's attorney's office, the integrity of that investigation has to be protected. >> as i said a few moments ago, we're expecting a news conference by the police in just a few minutes. we'll be covering of course the second it happens. i'm joined by an investigative reporter with the baltimore sun. mark, what is going on here with the timing of this report released by the police? when is it going to be publicized? ever? >> well, it will become public, i think, once the charges are announced or there is no wrongdoing concluded by the state's attorney. the commissioner announced initially that everything will be turned over on may 1. but last friday on his press conference, he said that would happen, but the investigation still would be ongoing. then the state's attorney would undergo her investigation. so now everybody has kind of cautioned everybody not to read too much into that because nothing will likely come out of that friday. >> but isn't the people -- look, we did a whole program. and everybody on our network and every other network has been talking to people in the streets

of baltimore, west baltimore. and everybody is talking about they can't wait until friday, which is just two days from now. we just heard somebody had their calendar circled for that day, like it's a big day, a most important day. now we're told don't rely on that because nothing public could come out. this is going to be very frustrating over the weekend if this is the way they handle this thing. >> well, there is a lot of people who still haven't heard that message that the information is not going to be revealed. and that's why officials now, including freddie gray's family's attorney, billy murphy is telling people not to read too much into that, and to lower the expectations within the community. they want a thorough investigation. they want the findings to remain secret. >> well, that's not going to come over too well. thanks, mark puente for your great reporting for the sing, thank you. >> joy reid has more now on the disconnect over the friday date. joy, i'm wait fog hear from you. what went wrong in the reporting, the press releases, the statements by the police that led everybody in the streets that you've been covering so well to believe that friday was deliverance day. flow is going to be no delivery

of information or judgment. >> yeah. well, absolutely, chris. and i have to say i went back and started looking over some of the reports to find out if maybe all of the media had a mass hallucination. because we all were led to believe that friday was the day that there was going to be a release of information. and just ordinary people on the street believed the same thing. and you couldn't simply say they were getting it from the media who was getting it wrong in the first place. i will tell you i spoke with a pastor who was one of 15 members of the clergy and a couple of business leaders who met with mayor stephanie rawlings-blake earlier today for the first of a come of meetings. there is going to be another one tomorrow. and what this pastor told me is she briefed them and explained to them that it was always a misunderstanding that the process is that there is a date certain when the police turn over their information to the state authority, which is the state prosecutor. but i can tell you that the earlier statements that were coming out of the police department here in the city of baltimore did make it appear

that they were going to make a release of information on the 1st, not turning it over to the prosecutor. because as we've seen in other cases like the walter scott case in south carolina, once it goes to the state prosecutor, it's almost never then -- there is almost never a public release. because then it's a state investigation. but the local authorities -- >> i think you said that well. >> well, what ends up happening. >> go ahead, go ahead. >> no, no, no, i'm sorry, i didn't mean to interrupt you, chris. what we've seen in the past is once a state prosecutor has hold of a case, then they almost never release information. but it then allows the local authority when you then go and ask them questions, when people like you and i go to the pio, the public information officer, they just refer us to the state. so it creates this feedback loop where there is no information to the public. but i can tell you, these ministers that met with the mayor, at least the one i spoke with said they were convinced by what she said. they felt she was being transparent. but now what they want them to do is go back to the community and have these ministers try to

explain that to the people here in this community. based on the people i've been talking, to chris, that is not going to go over very well at all. >> thank you so much, joy reid. you're on target here. the three-alarm fire by the way that destroyed a senior housing center at the southern baptist church at northeast and baltimore. it was one of the most vivid scenes of devastation this monday night, of course. the construction of that center which was to offer 60 affordable housing units was viewed as a symbol of progress in the community. it was only nine months away from being finished. but now an indiana architecture firm has offered to help actually rebuild it. here is how they delivered that news to the church's pastor donte hickman last night on baltimore's abc affiliate wmar. >> the police department chose friday as their goal, as their deadline to be able to give the information over to the state's attorney understanding that she is conducting her own investigation right now. and she will use the information

that the police give her to further her investigation. so there won't be any -- she certainly won't be able to in the same day that she gets that information to supplement what she is doing in the investigation make a determination about whether or not they're going to be charges. and i certainly don't want to give people the impression that our state's attorney will have made a decision by friday. >> well, that was the wrong tape. we'll get to that. i'm joined by pastor donte hickman of baltimore's southern baptist church. so this has been a roller coaster of emotions and reality for you, pastor, losing your center and now being told you have a chance to rebuild it. >> absolutely, chris. we are excited about what we believe by faith would take place, that as we have sown in tears we would reap in joy. what was negative is being turned into a positive. we were already told by our developers and general contractors that we would be able to restart the building. we already had an architect in

place. but to hear the news coming from hco just helps us to continue to further the development that we were doing down the street from the church, building 75 more affordable town homes in the community. >> i want to show you this tape for your benefit and the audience's right now, pastor hickman. here is that emotional of you on the local abc affiliate. >> you believe in miracles? >> i believe in miracles. i believe by faith. >> you want to experience one right now? >> absolutely. >> we're going take you live to indianapolis. we have michael blewitt standing by. michael is an architect, and he too, like everybody else, has a broken heart over what you have experienced. >> god makes no mistakes. he wants you to have better than what you had initially anticipated. and we want to be an instrument in providing the necessary services to get you to where you want to go, my brother. >> you okay? >> you all right?

>> michael, i don't know if you can see him. but he is very emotional right now. >> well, it's all on tape. commitments have been made, pastor. it's all there for you. you know the situation as well as anybody will ever know it. it's happening. you're going to get that senior citizen. tell me, who is going to live there when you do get it? people from that area? >> people from that area are going to benefit from that senior housing facility. and it's just a catalyst development for what we have been doing in east baltimore. we have been restoring people and rebuilding properties simultaneously. and i think freddie gray's death is not in vain, because it's really shining a light on the depravity and the lack of investment that has been taking place in east baltimore. and now people from all over the world are seeing that someone is trying to do something that the city has not done. and now we're getting ready to revitalize east baltimore. and we hope that that helps

ferguson and detroit and everyone to realize that if we can rebuild iraq, we ought to be able to rebuild our urban cities in america. >> that's a popular thought, what you just said there. charity begins at home. let me ask you about younger people. mayor barry, who was mayor of d.c. and had his problems. one problem he didn't know is he knew where the people's needs were. he had a summer jobs program here for the young men in this city, especially young men in their teen years when they could get into trouble. he got them jobs in the summer. and that got them used to going to work. it's a great training program for a kid to know what work is and what showing up means. what do you think the politicians ought to be doing? this isn't a left wing argument. what do you think politicians ought to be doing and learning from this lesson about young people and how they have to have opportunities or they're going to think of their own? >> i think the politicians need to get into the trenches. this is a moment of reality and crystal clarity. we've known this in baltimore for decades, that there has been

disinvestment and no care for the people who are in the urban communities. our mayor has put forth a great summer works program in which our church is involved with the interviewing process of students. but it's not clearly communicated. i think they have a communication problem that is being even evidenced with this justice call that is supposed to be happening on friday. >> yes. >> they're reactive rather than being proactive. and they have good news. even just like the obama administration. but nobody know house to tell the good news. they allow the bad news to get all over the place. >> well, reverend hickman, let's hope there is a good news on a friday report that is vanishing as we speak. thanks for joining us, reverend hickman. demonstrations are now taking place around the country in solidarity of the people in baltimore. and in new york right now, hundreds of people have gathered in union square. that's a famous place to demonstrate. and demonstrations have gotten a bit ugly up there. nbc's amanda sakura -- no, she

is not joining us. clashing with protesters. police have made several arrests. we'll continue to watch what is happening right there. let me go right back to the panel. you've been with baited breath here, governor. i'd like to say i was there in '68. i wasn't standing on the corner of 14th and u. but everybody saw the city burning. all these years later, 47 years later. and that is late in the game. >> the reverend put his finger exactly on this. this is economic disinvestment. instead of argue cutting taxes for people who make two and three million a year, put that same amount of money into tax credits into people redeveloping that housing. everybody wins that. then people get a decent place to live. you also got to do something -- >> where is the democratic party agenda we don't hear? where is summer jobs? where is programs? i don't hear it. >> there needs to be more of it. i thought hillary got it off to a pretty good start today talking what michelle alexander wrote her book about, the new

jim crow, which is reform of the prison system. this is ridiculous. warehousing a third of all black men at some point in their lifetime. this is crazy. and we have not come to grips with the same issues that were raised in '68. >> it's not like the summer jobs model that you had mentioned that marion barry put forth in d.c. it's not like it is not proven. it is proven because it's actually credited with actually creating a sort of era of affluency in d.c., not just in washington, d.c. but it's credited with creating a vibrant black middle class in neighboring prince georges county, maryland. it's actually credited with partly building up the black middle class throughout the state of maryland. that's one of the reason why's maryland is such an affluent state as it is. you can do the same things in baltimore. >> we're right back, april. amanda sakuma, what is happening right snow? >> we're just on 17th street right off union square.

and about five minutes into the protest here, we saw about the police were in a line, and there was a major clash with the protesters here. and there have been several arrests made. we have seen several people hauled to the ground. i was trampled on the ground while we were in the middle of the streets. please make clear that they did want to see anyone blocking major roadways. they did not want to see anyone blocking the sidewalks. they have been pushing people out on to the sidewalk. but for right now things are starting to calm down. but i did see a police officer who was trampled on the ground. many officers came to save him. he got trampled, though. and there have been other protesters that have been trampled on the ground. and this is what we're seeing here so far. >> amanda, can you tell whether the people causing trouble or acting violently toward the police were among the actual organized protesters or were they opportunists? can you tell? >> i wouldn't necessarily say that the protesters were

actively being violent against the police officers here. they made clear that they wanted to have a peaceful march. the police officers did make clear to the protesters that they did not want to see them in the middle of the roadway, in the middle of the streets. and the protesters made that clear. the leaders made that clear to the groups who are wanting to come out. remember, these are many of the same groups that were able to block the brooklyn bridge in the past. they have done these protests in the past and were able to do so without much difficulty. and so it was a bit surprising to see so much -- such a hard line from the police officers here. they basically stood in a straight line and blocked the roadways. and so when there are so many people following suit, it kind of brushed up into one another and that's how the clashes began. >> thank you so much, amanda sakuma. we'll be back to you if there is more trouble. let me go to april on this. hillary clinton stepped into the deep end of the pool. i understand why she did it. she is expected to speak out.

this idea about reducing incarceration. obviously incarceration is a function of a number thing. perhaps it's an injustice in the justice system. perhaps it's a lot of crime in the black community. when people say what do you do, so let's go to cases now. you pick up someone in the corner who is dealing. he has enough drugs on him to dealing. he is making money off other people's addictions. now, do you slap his wrist and say don't do that again? that doesn't work that doesn't work. do you pin him with a 20-year sentence? that's a disaster. by the time he is out in 20 years, he is worse than when he went in. some people say a quick hard slap of a couple of years, then let him out. what is the secret to punishment to end the crime? >> do you do tough love or a holistic approve. i know several judges in baltimore. we've been talking about this. they try to look at it as a social worker almost. and that's what they think is sometimes they are. >> does that teach a young man not to commit the crime? does it? >> one judge told me that she

told a young man who was dealing drugs, i expect more from you. and he came back and told her, i've got a job now. you have to find the line. i'm not in that position. >> how many people would that work with, that approach. >> i don't know. but she had at least one. but you have to figure out which way to go. >> and every case is different. >> exactly. >> some people walk out of there and laugh at you. >> exactly. and do it again. >> here is the deal, though. this is where you can experiment which we haven't done with this. so the average person that you just described is addicted to drugs themselves is why they're selling. >> well, that is the leap. >> you don't take your own product. you don't smoke up or shoot your own product. >> the higher you go, the less likely that is. but the average person is feeding their own habit. those people ought to be sentenced. but they ought to be sentenced to drug rehab. >> but i think there is a lot of people in the streets making money on it. look at this now, the arrests in new york city. >> they're still hurting from eric gardner. >> apparently this was a demonstration on the issue of freddie gray.

>> but they're still hurting from eric garner. >> okay. you're right. the garner family is going to speak. so they're going to get -- these are all getting intertangled here. >> this is a real issue in this country. the spotlight is on it. >> let me ask you. you cover this. when this thing started, before ferguson, down in florida with zimmerman, and the vigilante case, and then it led to a loft police cases. it had the same kind of look to it, a white guy killing a black guy. with no real justification. and the court system got into it where you have cameras, it's been different, clearly. and you go to ferguson, you go to garner, you go to cleveland with the kid getting killed in schoolyard. on the cop that arrive there's two seconds before and the kid is dead. >> toy gun. >> yeah. >> toy gun. >> put the factors together. tough neighborhood. >> right. >> no opportunities.

kids perhaps not disciplined enough, and police officers think they can get away with anything. but also, scared to death in some cases. >> right. >> all these factors. >> guilty. >> another factor too that has been overlooked is you have a lot of police officers who were involved in these situations that don't live in those communities. and you have even a lot of state legislators. i talked to legislators in places like missouri. >> do you think it's that simple? >> it's not that simple. but it makes a big difference. [ overlapping dialog ] >> not so much that they live there, but that they have some sort of understanding of the socio-economic realities in those communities. maybe eric garner wouldn't have died if those police officers had some basic understanding of why he was selling loose cigarettes in the first place. you know, there is -- >> you're being kind. he wasn't a drug addict. he was doing it for a living. >> he was trying to survive. >> but the chokehold -- >> but you have these armed white cops primarily, and they're coming from the suburban counties. they're coming from places where they don't live in the city. they don't live within those communities. and so they have a very

confrontational dynamic or relationship with people that they're patrolling every day. that's a problem. >> where did they learn that from? where did they learn from that from? >> they learn what they thought was respect on the spot. >> presumed guilty a loft times because you come from that life of survival by any means necessary. you know, yes, some of these people had rap sheets eight feet long. eric garner, i'm the sister of a black man, a daughter. my brother is 6'5". i don't know where he came from. he is a gentle giant. i told my brother, if ever you get in that situation, they're going to try to take you down right away because you're a black man that is tall. >> look at the other way, the white cop that goes in a neighborhood they know what the crime rate, they know what the situation is and they know there is crime in the area. and they got to establish in their hearts an assumption of innocence. every night they go out and patrol. >> it's called community policing. knowing who these people are. >> that's a hell of a rigorous

standard for a guy. >> in baltimore, they used to have community police and it really worked. they knew the people in the community. >> i think we're in trouble in area there was community policing. we'll see. we'll see. we thought we were going to find out on friday what was happening. we don't know yet. >> no, this is -- i just want to back up april. if you're in the community and people know you, that actually begins to transcend race. >> it does. >> it really does. if you are known as a decent person who cares about the kids. and what will happen is if a bad guy does cause trouble, the community rallies around the cop. >> and there is that holistic approach. >> better than in the foot than in the car. >> that's absolutely right. >> let's get back to toure. he is on the streets right now talking with people about their expectations of getting information this friday. apparently they're not going to get it on the freddie gray death and how it happened. toure? toure? >> how are they going to feel when they don't get a report on friday. this is mikhail porter. how are you going to feel on

friday if you don't get some sort of reckoning, some sort of accounting? >> i feel myself as well as the entire city will feel quite disappointed. we can find a solution to this problem. right now we're doing a peaceful protest. everyone is out here all together. there is lots of great energy. we know something good can come of this. from friday if we get nothing, well -- >> you said you grew up with the mayor. are you going to feel disappointed in her if you don't get something on friday? >> i know that the mayor is trying her best. i know she is trying her hardest. i know this isn't the easiest situation. but guess what? life is difficult. this is proven to be a difficult situation over the past couple of weeks. now it's time to bite the bullet. now it's time to find a great solution, something that will stick and something that will be beneficial for everyone. >> chris, you're absolutely right. people are going to be very disappointed if they don't get something on friday. >> well, toure, thank you, sir, as well the gentleman with you. thank you, both. we're going to go back to union square. what we're doing is waiting for

a press conference by the police. the people are going to be right on target here in terms of giving us the information that was promised to the people in the streets. they expect it. however, this miscommunication occurred, it's rampant. in the media, people thought were going to get a report on friday. i was checking it again right before we went on the air tonight. i've never seen anything as cockeyed as this thing has become. everybody was told friday we're going to know what happened. now you're told we're not going to know what happened. we're back with the panel. i think it's going to be a problem for the weekend. luckily it's not 95 degrees out. >> it's going to be a huge problem. i was there again on penn and north this afternoon. people were just saying i can't wait for the report on friday. i want justice to be served. what happens when you're already here and you're not that tall and you're waiting for something that is not going to happen? it's a tinderbox in baltimore. >> the mayor and the police chief are going to have to figure out a way to operationalize this. crisis management 101. don't understand estimate the passions and the intellect of your constituencies. and they have done that in a very miserable fashion. i get the feeling like there is

this sort of -- i noticed in that earlier press conference with the baltimore commander where we're going to do the unique thing of passing this along to the state prosecutor. and i feel like some of those optical tensions that we've been seeing between the mayor, who is democrat, and also the republican larry hogan who is a republican, i think that internally there is some sort of pass the buck thing going on here. it's playing out. >> you can say that, but people are judged by how they behave in crises. that's just a fact. governor? >> let me just touch on this for a second. because you touched on something that is a real problem. and it happens in all these cases. the state's attorney should not be investigating police misconduct in these kind of situations. why? because they work with the police every day. that's their job. they bring cases together. and eric schneiderman, the attorney general of new york has a solution that came out of the horrible case up there, the chokehold, the eric garner case which is that in a situation where somebody dies in the hands of the police that needs to be

prosecuted by the attorney general or somebody who does not have that personal day to day working relationship. because even with the best state's attorney in the country, the results are going to be suspect. >> yeah. i'm sorry. go ahead? >> maryland state senator kathy pugh just told me the transparency needs to start with the baltimore police department. so. >> we're going to continue to watch what is going on in new york. you see these people, there is arrest going on. let's bring in rehema ellis who is at baltimore city hall. we have two cities recovering tonight. rehema, thank you for coming on. we're talking. all afternoon i kept saying how can there be this disconnect between what people expect in the streets and the row houses of west baltimore and everywhere else in the country of some big police report on that commission on what happened to freddie gray this friday. now we're told gradually and very unsuccessfully, you're not going to get a report publicized this friday. >> well, what i'm hearing, chris, from people out here who are gathered, i want you to get a sense of what the scene look likes.

as you can see, you've got law enforcement authorities here behind the bicycle grates. and my cameraman is going to turn a little bit. it's not a pretty shot, but we're going to turn. i'm going to show you, there are people who have gather heard in front of city hall. and that is very, very peace. they're out talking about remember freddie gray. remember why we came out. remember all the other freddie grays, not just here in baltimore, but throughout the country. excuse me. and so are they looking for answers? yes, they are. are they impatient? yes, they are. but these people are peaceful. i talked to people who came here from philadelphia, from other parts of the country, and i hope you can see, but this is not just a black crowd. there are white people, there are old people, young people. i should tell you there are college students here. people have been giving out food, free pizza. this crowd does not say that they want to go and riot if they don't get the information that they want. they are saying that they want information. they're standing here at city hall and demanding information. i know that police are going to be ready because they tell us

they are. you can see behind me that they are. but folks here tonight, chris, are saying to me don't expect me to riot. don't expect -- >> got you. >> well, they have to -- police have to be ready, as you know, because there are some agitators who end up messing up what peaceful protesters are trying to do. >> well said. thank you so much, rehema ellis out there at baltimore at city hall. we're now waiting for the news conference from baltimore police. this is going to be a hot news conference. it's coming up here any minute now. we're also going to take a look at this extraordinary scene today at baltimore's camden yards, one of the most baseball fields in the country, empty today. empty because they didn't trust the people to come in and have a reasonable time watching a ball game. this is pretty scary. first time in the history of organized baseball since it began in the 19th century they haven't had a time where they played a game with nobody allowed to watch. by the way, incidental news, the o's won 8-2. >> yay. >> we'll be back.

welcome back to "hardball." watching two different scenes in two different cities. on the left you see police in new york in union square making arrests at a protests there in union square, arrests at an occasion which is a combination of what happened with garner and what's happened with freddie gray, both dead. on the right you see protesters in baltimore. they've been taking to the streets as peaceful marches near city hall. we're awaiting that news conference from the baltimore police in just a few minutes which everybody's waiting for. let's listen to that now. here it is. >> -- at officers in the head, hit in the face. so when we talk about people just throwing rocks, and this is one of the small ones that were coming at my officers that were out there. i just want to share that because i think they're extremely courageous and i think they've been standing tall and i'd like to thank you guys, because i've been listening to the news, as your commentators have reported that the organization has been very professional. we've been very deliberate in

what we've done and i think organization as a whole, i agree with you guys, has done a good job. thank you and i think the officers have been very courageous. today we have had no officers injuries so far. we've had no major incidents. we've had the large crowd that came down to city hall. i had resources stationed in front of city hall. i've placed resources down in our inner harbor all day. i've shifted resources from state as well as national guard as well as baltimore police department in a multitude of multiagencies up at the mall. a huge presence there opening up bulls routes for school. i've placed resources at north and pennsylvania. we have no major incidents, no major events at this point. we're getting ready for curfew. i've directed automatic resources to start paying attention. that curfew is going into effect within less than two hours.

i believe now the governor and the mayor are getting ready for a full briefing that most likely will take place about 8:30. so we're preparing for that. other than that, we have had 16 adult arrests throughout the day and two juveniles. i can't tell you what the 16 arrests are for. is there any questions i can answer? >> i have a question, commissioner. just so we're clear, because i've heard a lot of people talking about information that really -- will or won't be turned over on friday. just so the public has a clear expectation, what can they expect to know about the freddy gray investigation and that report? >> much like i said last friday, when we did the news conference, what we're going to be turning over is preinvestigative work that we have put together, the same thing that we shared. we will be turning that over to the state's attorney. no actions, if you're anticipating actions, the action

will be turning the investigation over the state's attorney. and from there they will take the ball. >> so you won't turn over any -- you won't be releading any information to the public on friday? >> we will be turning over all information to the state's attorney. they then take the lead. >> so no information will be coming from the police department regarding this investigation to the public? because you've said in the past -- you said last week that -- >> i said last week what we'll be doing is turning over information much like i'm saying tonight to the state's attorney and then they tyke the lead from that point. also what i said is we can't put out too much information that may jeopardize the case itself. if anyone needs to be prosecuted. so we're limiting what information that goes out there for the purpose of prosecution if that's an issue. >> the public defender's office says that over 100 people who have been arrested are being released without any charges. can you tell us what happened there? was it something that just couldn't process them in time, in 48 hours?

>> we've come up on a time line. we are still releasing them with future prosecution in mind. >> commissioner, [ inaudible ]? are there any spots that might concern you? >> i was pleased with what took place in the city l.a. night. for the most part i think the curfew looked pretty well, much like the mayor predicted. we got people off the street. there wasn't a lot moving. much like will happen now. much like this large protest, extremely peaceful, but people are going home in enough time before curfew, which is about two hours out. so right now i think we'll be okay. i anticipate no major issue. i've placed resources in multiple places around the city to anticipate any issues, but i don't think there's going to be. [ inaudible question ]

one more time? i can't hear you. [ inaudible question ] we had a device that looks like it was a homemade device. it was inert. we found it on i believe it was north and pennsylvania. and we have to pay attention not only to rocks. we have to pay attention to bottles, inert devices, too, at this point in time. it's nothing overalarming for us but we make sure officers are paying attention. >> there's a photo of you on twitter grabbing or attacking a person. can you just tell us what was happening there? >> up at the mall, as officers were taking rocks prior to them advancing across the street, i saw probably about four or five or six young people picking up rock, throwing them at officers as a whole. i went over to apprehend one or two of them and the picture that you see the one of them that i was grabbing as i was trying to grab the second one. [ inaudible question ]

we had i believe a female officer with an injury to the leg and everybody has been released. >> two more questions. >> how was it injured? flying rocks. kind of like that rock that i showed you. they were taking rocks. >> can you provide any more details on these 101 people that were released? do you expect some, most, all to be charged? >> we're not giving up on them. we're just going to follow up. i think the system right now is trying to catch up. but eric will give you further information if you need it. i have to meet with the governor and the mayor. >> you just heard there our worst conclusion has come to pass here. apparently the police are will not issue any information in this friday. there will be no report from the police commissioner to the public. nothing for the people in the row houses and the streets of baltimore to know what will happen in this case. so it's going to be a very frustrating weekend i think for the people of baltimore. that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us.

"all in" with chris hayes starts right now right from baltimore itself. good evening. from baltimore city hall, i'm chris hayes. you just heard from commissioner anthony batts, who's described a fairly calm scene, including peaceful protests, a march late this afternoon. hundreds of students protesting police violence chanting all night, all day, we will fight for freddy gray. city still felt unsettled today