it's that kind of van that freddie gray was in when he sustained the injury that killed him. you've got to think since he's died, hundreds of people placed in vans like that, thinking to themselves that they're going to be the next freddie gray. that is "all in" for this thursday. rachel maddow is next. >> thank you. tonight baltimore is planning to impose a citywide curfew. police said they plan to keep the curfew going through the weekend but tonight will be their attempt to enforce night three. curfew starts throughout the large city of baltimore at 10:00 p.m., goes through 5:00 a.m. tomorrow morning. the national guard is also in the streets for a third street night supplementing baltimore police and supporting police that have been shipped in from surrounding communities and states. last night and the night before have seen some tension in the

streets around the time of the start of the curfew at 10 p.m. but honestly, there has been no repeat this week of the large scale rioting and arson and looting and violent clashes with police that we saw on monday afternoon and monday night in the aftermath of the funeral of 25-year-old baltimore resident freddie gray. today towns continue to hold marches and rallies in solidarity with baltimore. there was also a good size march and rally in cincinnati today, in ohio. baltimore has been marching again today as well. despite rain in baltimore, there was another good size rally, a good, peaceful march in baltimore today. major developments in the story today, the major developments in this story were about honestly the investigations into mr. gray's death. the baltimore police say that

they have completed their investigation, the police department investigation. they said today that they handed over their information to the local prosecutor's office so she can make a decision on whether or not charges will be brought against anyone in conjunction with freddie gray's death. he died after he was brought into custody and mortally wounded somehow. he died on april 19th. the local prosecutor's office also put out a statement saying her office received that information from the baltimore police but that prosecutor also said today that her office will not just rely on the information from the police. the local prosecutor is saying they will include that information in what they are doing but they are also doing their own independent inquiry. we look at the live shots from the streets of baltimore. let go to msnbc reporter joy reid who has been in baltimore all week and doing great reporting. tell us what it feels like tonight an hour ahead of the curfew. >> reporter: that's right.

just like last night the square is full. it might be more full. i don't know if you can see over my shoulder, but just in this area behind me, a few minutes ago there was an intense conversation going on between young men from this community and the police captain who oversees this area. a really intention conversation that has now moved in that direction. he's right over there. he's sort of moving through the crowd, trying to talk to people about what he's saying is the process they need to stand. if i could characterize the feelings that we've talked to in baltimore today toward the police, rachel, it would be one word, distrust. maybe extreme distrust. people have a lack of faith in the process, they don't believe any information coming out that freddie gray harmed himself. people are using harsh words like murder, that freddie gray was killed.

that friday deadline that was so important to the point where pastors were going into high schools to disabuse young people that friday was important, releasing the information early was about dialing that down. even at a meeting at which national civil rights leaders from all around, the national urban league, the naacp came together to support the mayor, to really give her some backup today, on the streets of baltimore all we are seeing is the raw emotion, anger and distrust that people feel about this process, about what they see as a lack of justice that's coming for freddie gray. so we will just keep monitoring and seeing what happens. if i can quickly introduce you to somebody that i spoke with earlier, come quick and tell me your name. >> anini. >> reporter: do you expect there to be justice for freddie gray? what do you think about the process so far? >> well, first of all, brutality breeds resistance, you know?

and there won't be any process that will be given to us because we know it takes time. and we know that something like this would be unprecedented to charge police because this would start to trickle down and hold more police accountable and i think that right now it's a recovery. and they're saying things and trying to retract statements. i think they lack the honesty they need to tell the youth, the things that ignited and upset the youth are repeating itself. the youth are braver than most adults would ever do in their life. what i notice is they're condemning the youth for what has happened but they were the ones on the front line, they were the ones that brung all this attention to all the problems that plague baltimore youth, baltimore citizens. and the majority of them are black. that's truth of the matter. they want to disarm the students, tell them it's not going to come out on friday because they don't want to get them upset again and they keep getting their hearts broken. >> reporter: what do you think

will happen when friday comes and goes and it becomes clear there isn't a public release of information, what do you think will happen on saturday? >> that's what it seems to be is rallies. the children are more heart broken because they don't understand there is a process. the people we elect, the public officials, they haven't been clear because everyone is trying to protect their image. they're not giving the youth, the citizens the accurate information that there's a process that has to go about. they need to show us step by step by step what's happening instead of being silent. with these other things that ignite us. when saturday comes, when sunday come, they want to uplift the curfew and say it's gone and they want things to be back to business as usual, you will once again have heart broken youth, heart broken citizens that just still want justice for freddie gray and other things that plague our community. >> reporter: anini speaks for a lot of people and very eloquently. he expresses the feeling of this

community. not really good news to report about the vibe and the way people feel out here. this is raw and palpable, you can feel the anger but it's also a peaceful movement but people are angry, they're passionate and they don't believe there's going to be justice. >> you're feeling about the anger and distrust and tension you feel from baltimoreans and the police. what about the way the police are handling the situation, handling -- is it a tense thing? it looks like a relaxed relationship between the protesters and police, between the concerned community and the police out there in the streets trying to make sure monday doesn't happen again. >> reporter: absolutely. you can really tell that the

marching orders of the police department here are to be very, very restrained. even when there have been shows of force in the sense of showing their physical presence and the body armor and the shields, there's been a lot of restraint and a lot of conversations between local officials and the way they want this curfew to be policed. it's with minimal force and dialing back. i'll ask anini about how the policing of this has been so far? >> ironically this is something that we're used to. it may be on a broader scale but the police police our communities a lot. it project one of the reasons that freddie gray ran. it puts fear in the hearts of us opinion we expect the same people to protect us and we pay the taxes, they also are the ones that brutalize us. even though it may be a peaceful demonstration as you see, the thing that goes on constantly is the brutality and the snatching up and jacking up. even though it's peaceful, it

still puts us on edge. doesn't makes feel like we're protected but more or less the businesses and property are protected. >> i've heard that for the last few days, even though the police are comporting themselves, people feel they're here to protect the businesses. they don't have relationships with the community to walk through the crowd as the captain did and he was local. he was able to do that and did have a conversation. again, it wasn't a conversation between people who seemed to be on accord, it was very tense, it was very confrontational. that's the way it is. that's a systemic problem that i don't think gets solved of three and four days of being calm in the way they're policing this community money. >> joy reid with an incredibly articulate young man. let's see if we can get him a camera of his own, we can hire him temporarily as a d.j. for us. that was great reporting from him. >> reporter: i agree.

>> tell him he should give as you call. when i say d.j., i mean digital journalist. you start talking about where people are coming from from their own neighborhoods. the city of baltimore is under curfew. it's the third night in a row. it's supposed to be set for an entire week. the baltimore police suggested it will continue through the weekend and may end on monday. since the situation in baltimore seems to be getting by the day or at least not returning to the levels of violence we saw since monday, the protests since monday have been almost 100% peaceful. some people are calling for the curfew to be lifted ahead of when the city wants to lift it. the aclu of maryland sent a letter saying the curfew is an

infringement on people's right to protest. today baltimore's police commissioner addressed complaints like that. >> we've had two days of quiet and stable, we have resident and business people saying can we take the curfew away, things are settled, can you kind of retract some of the curfew ordinance? i would say this -- although we've had two days of peace and quiet, we still have a weekend to make it through. i ask for your patience, i ask for your understanding as we move through. we have two very large marches that are going to take place throughout the weekend and in a very short notice as i walked in, i was instructed and told that we have a lot more protests that are popping up by the

minute. and even if we didn't, we have other cities that have large protests that their activities impact our city, too. so at this point we're going to stay stable. >> joining us is sonia kumar, a staff attorney for the aclu. >> thank you for having me. >> why has the aclu asked to lift the curfew? >> we're joining a chorus of organizations and businesses that you and other media have been talking to all week saying that we've shown we're okay right now, we have the right to be out in our city, going about our daily lives. the situation is under control. we've had several -- we've had a number of protests that have been entirely peaceful, thousands of people in the streets, and we're sort of ready for the sort of extra sense that we're under an extra sense of

surveillance and sort of military style enforcement, we're ready for that to -- for this extra layer to be rolled back. >> in terms of the curfew enforcement thus far, obviously nobody really knew what was going to happen when baltimore started to enforce this, this 10 p.m. to 5 a.m. curfew. there was a bit of a violent confrontation that didn't last very long the first night they tried to enforce that. since then it seems to have been enforced peacefully and overall the violent clashes between people and police seems to be a lot lower since they instituted the curfew. this some ways do you think it has been effective? >> i think it's absolutely true that people have really shown that the curfew is really no longer needed and i think it's important to sort of -- you all are not seeing this but we are

surrounded by people who are engaged in incredibly important conversations about how we're going to make our city better, how we're going to address policing and those conversations are being cut short because people are forced inside, sort of in the absence of any real need for that. >> one of the things that we've been watching on social media today and it hard for us to verify but i will say we're seeing a lot of reports that seem to reinforce the impression that the curfew is only being imposed in certain parts of baltimore. baltimore is a big city. it's more than 600,000 people. what's being discussed online today and seemingly be a source of anger is that the curfew only really applies to mostly black neighborhoods and in wealthier parts of the city, parts of the city that haven't seen big protest activity, that the curfew isn't being enforced in those places and they can live as usual. >> that's absolutely one of our concerns.

we often have rules that are going to be what we call facially neutral. it's been the core of the topic of discussion sort inform weeks -- in the time since freddie gray's death is that all of this comes back to the sense that there's selective enforcement of policing in our society and in our city of course. and so there's a concern in which sort of this is another example of that. and it's really clearly not needed. we're all calling for sort of a chance to reexamine how we've done things. let's start by lifting the curfew now that it's really clear that it's not needed. >> sonia kumar, as soon as i heard they were considering a curfew and imposing it, i set my watch as to when we would be talking to our first staff attorney of the aclu of maryland. thank you for explaining your

perspective on it. >> thank you. >> we have much more ahead from baltimore and elsewhere. tonight we'll speak to a legendary civil rights attorney from the city of baltimore who is now acting as an attorney for freddie gray's family. i'm very much looking forward to that, it's an exclusive here tonight. and also we have images from what's turned into a very large protest in philadelphia. stay with us.

we've been keeping an eye on streaming video today from cities across the country where protests have been going on in solidarity with the baltimore protests. we've been watching those feeds all day. this is one of the more dramatic scenes that broke out earlier this evening. this is in philadelphia as protesters were trying to get to what looked like an on-ramp in philadelphia. big pushing and shoving and

police officers and including bike cops in the middle of it, it ended up not as bad as it looked right then but this big march from philly is ongoing.

you're looking here at live images of philadelphia tonight. the demonstration has been particularly big and at times contentious. around 8 p.m., as we just showed a moment ago, you could see there was a brief but intense

clash between protesters and police, some demonstrators apparently trying to get on to the vine street expressway, or on to the on-ramp. it looked like it might get more out of control than it was. after that tussling, the police decided to let those protesters go through to where they wanted to be and the protesters moved through and moved on elsewhere. one group of protesters in philly tonight gathered outside the jail chanting "we are one, we are one." no word on any arrests yet. it has been a bit of an intense night in philly. joining us is mike newell. it might be a little bit hard to hear us depending where you are right now. thank you for joining us. >> my pleasure. >> can you tell us where you are and what the protests have been like tonight? >> sure. i'm at the parkway. i ducked in somewhere to be able to hear you. there was a brief moment around 8:00 on an entrance ramp to one

of our freeways where the police held the line for a moment, there was some pushing and shoving. they did, like you said, let them go, let them pass through. we have reports of three arrests, a few minor injuries, one of the chief inspectors looked like he suffered a bloody lip in the melee. other than that, we were very fortunate, there were times the protesters were aggressive, the police are reporting no property damage, just a few arrests. i think it was very lucky or the police handed it very well to not have anything escalate further than this did on that ramp. >> is this one of those situations where there has been a single group of people moving en masse from place to place or has it been one group splintering into smaller groups as they move? >> we had about a thousand people meet -- estimate of about

600 people to a thousand people meet at city hall for an intense but emotional peaceful protest. two marches splintered off from there. one went to temple university and the other went through downtown. i haven't heard any problems with the marchers that headed to temple. there was one group going downtown, that was the group that came to the brief confrontation on the ramp. >> mike newall, metro reporter for the "philadelphia enquirer." as he said there, this has been going on for a long time tonight, started off as a group of about a thousand. that group split in two different groups and have been moving through the city. they have been blocking some motor ways. there was one pushing and

shoving confrontation with police but no property damage. very small numbers of arrests reported as those demonstrations continue in philly and around the country tonight. still ahead, we've got the attorney for freddie gray's family who is going to be joining us tonight. and we're looking down the barrel of the third night of the curfew being imposed on the streets of baltimore. stay with us. y crying in the background) first kid we've got at least 20 minutes, lets do this by their second kid, every mom is an expert and more likely to choose luvs than first time moms live, learn and get luvs

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one of the attorneys for freddie gray's family. i'm looking forward to that. we're going to get his take on the state of the investigation that was leaked last night. it has a lot of people very angry. we'll get his take and the gray family's take about what baltimoreans can expect to hear in the coming days. the city is in a continuing state of emergency, it has the national guard out on the streets, a curfew that's expect to be in effect not just tonight but through the weekend and into monday. it's got the nation fairly riveted to baltimore's response and to what baltimore is going through. we will continue our watch on baltimore tonight and other cities protesting in solidarity with baltimore. you should know that there has been a bit of a flurry of other news going on in the world while this has been happening. just tonight, andrea mitchell has gotten a scoop that the obama presidential library is

going to go to chicago, rather than to new york city or to hawaii. new york and hawaii were both thought to have a claim on the library but it's going to chicago. nbc news confirming the barack obama presidential library will go to chicago. no official announcement yet but andrea mitchell tonight got that scoop for nbc. >> today also happens to be the 40th anniversary of the fall of saigon, the day helicopters carried away the last americans in saigon as the side that american troops had supported in the american-vietnamese civil war last that war and the north vietnamese swept into saigon and took the city 40 years ago today the last americans off the roofs. >> vermont senator bernie sanders has declared today he is

running for president. he is the second democrat to enter the race. after announcing his bid, sanders said do not underestimate. when asked about differences between former secretary of state hillary clinton, he did point out that he, bernie sanders at least, had the good sense to vote against the iraq war when she voted in favor of it. from afghanistan the "new york times" just had a provocative scoop in which their reporters reported that the u.s. combat mission on the ground and in the air in afghanistan is still going. the combat mission is going great gang busters despite political claims in washington that the combat mission is over. the "times" also had another scoop about the american psychological association collaborating secretly with the

bush administration to support the torture of prisoners during the time that bush was president. americans are blowing the whistle saying that group helped bush and the cia make torture seem legal and they changed their own ethic rules to try to make okay medical personnel participating in torture sessions which would otherwise be very against ethics. >> today in nepal, incredibly a teen-ager was pulled alive from the rubble. after five days trapped and unable to move, he was pulled out alive. just incredible. >> in kansas, the policy of republican governor sam brownback have so stafford that state that half a dozen school district courts are ending their school years early because they are can't afford to keep the schools open until the end of

the year. still, brownback found a half million dollar to set aside for the -- now he just started a tour around the state to reenact the signing again at schools around kansas. ones that aren't closing early because he took their money to use it to defend his abortion bill. republicans in congress have announced plans to make it legal in washington d.c. to fire someone if they have an abortion. that's night for washington d.c. republicans in colorado have just zeroed funding for a successful public health program in that state, which reduced that teen's pregnancy rate by 40% and reduced the state's abortion rate among young women by 35%.

it makes iuds available to young woman who couldn't otherwise afford them. that program has been studied nationwide as a model program because it's been so successful. but today an all-male committee in the republican controlled colorado senate killed the program. because -- because republicans politics are like that in the states and in washington and all around the country. but even as those incredible politics stories keep breaking around the country this week and the news does keep chugging along right and we're expecting at least three more candidates to announce next week, even as all that happens in the news universe, what the streets of baltimore have done nationally, which i think nobody really expected is they have approximately criminal justice and policing reform, sentencing reform, right at the tom of the national conversation, right at the top of the national political agenda, congress an leaders of both parties

reportedly this week scrambling to find and endorse political justice reforms of some kind to respond to the anger in the streets of baltimore. presidential candidates cooking up positions and new stump speeches on policing and sentencing and criminal justice reform and race. we are in a new era all of a sudden of criminal justice reform as popular american politics. and it's not exactly a bipartisan thing but it is at least something that is very interestingly partisan. 23 years ago it wasn't hillary clinton running to be president, it was bill clinton running to be president. in the months leading up to that 1992 election when he was first elected president, while he was campaigning for president in 1992 the country was consumed by and horrified by and traumatized by the 1992 riots following the acquittal of police officers who

beat rodney king in l.a. rodney king's beating was captured on tape and when no one was held accountable, l.a. rioted for eight days. 53 people died. there were thousands of arrests. the country was scared. and democratic arkansas governor bill clinton in the middle of that became the tough on crime democratic presidential candidate of 1992. the tough on crime bumper sticker had previously been on republican cars, but with his patented magic triangulation strategy, bill clinton took that republican campaign promise and made it democratic-ish. he made poppy bush a one-term president. by 1994 we got more than just bill clinton tough on crime rhetoric, we got his tough on crime bill.

>> americans said we want more police on the streets. president clinton heard you. now there are going to be fewer bureaucrats and more policemen in your communities. you said violent criminals ought not to be free on the streets. president clinton heard you. now we have three strikes and you're out for violent offenders. i want to single out for special recognition the chairman of the senate judiciary committee who has fought tirelessly for this bill for six long years, senator joe biden. would you stand, senator joe biden. >> there's joe biden right behind al gore at that signing ceremony. that was not some little messaging bill that didn't really do anything. that crime bill, it was the biggest change in criminal justice policy since world war

ii, resulting in big increases in the number of police officers on the streets, number of prisons, number of prisoners, mandatory minimum sentences, the federal three strikes you're out law, the increase in the number of death penalty-eligible crimes, all under a democratic president put together by democrats in congress. huge democratic support in the congress. the only democrat who voted against that bill in the whole senate was russ feingold. all of a sudden in the clinton presidency tough on crime became a democratic promise. now that is going in the other direction. there's no longer a fight over who is tougher on crime. that's been driven in part due to the results of the tough on crime policies. we got the shockingly disproportionate effects of

those policies on minority populations, specifically on african-american men. but that shift in the national conversation has been driven more acutely in the past year by the horrible and nationally resonant stories of police violence, whether it was eric garner in new york, walter scott in south carolina, tamir rice, and, and, and -- now of course freddie gray, who was placed within in a police van and dead within a week of that encounter for something we still don't understand. those deaths have forced criminal justice and police reform on to the national stage. this week several would-be candidates for 2016 published their proposals for justice reform.

all of these different disparate political characters all appearing in the same criminal justice reform anthology. yesterday hillary clinton gave her first major policy speech since announcing her presidential run and it was all about this topic, all about baltimore. >> what we have seen in baltimore should indeed i think does tear at our soul. there is something profoundly wrong when african-american men are still far more likely to be stopped and searched by police, charged with crimes and sentenced to longer prison terms than our meted out to their white counterparts. there is something wrong with a third of all black men face the prospect of prison during their lifetimes. and an estimated 1.5 million black men are, quote, missing

from their families and communities because of incarceration and premature death. there is something wrong when more than 1 out of every 3 young black men in baltimore cannot find a job. >> hillary clinton in her first policy speech since announcing her run for president, she went on in that speech actually to praise some republicans for their work on criminal justice reform, shouting out mike lee, senator from utah and rand paul, senator from kentucky, as people who have constructive ideas on criminal justice issues. you wouldn't expect that from a policy speech in the heart of a presidential campaign, but on this issue, there's a lot of agreement. on mandatory minimum sentences and voting rights and drug treatment as opposed to incarceration and ending the era of mass incarceration all over, there is bipartisan consensus in our politics, even at the

sharp end of our politician right now. our national conversation has absolutely taken a u-turn on this subject. it was already shifting before this year but now it has become really dramatic. since ferguson it has increased. and since baltimore, it has taken over. national conversations don't usually change this fast. the fact that it has changed this fast and that there isn't a partisan divide may mean we get a whole new set of national policy on this issue. watch the space. in the meantime whether or not we get a new national issue, or new national policies on this topic, while that's all being sorted, on the ground this is baltimore tonight. it is not a big picture matter

in baltimore on the streets right now. it's not an abstract political discussion right now, it's very specific and it's very much

baltimore's looking for the third night in a row to enforce a citywide curfew between 10 p.m. and 5 a.m. reporter trymaine lee has been out where they have been gathering the last three nights. trymaine, thanks for being with us. what do you think is going to happen as we head toward 10 p.m.? do you think the curfew will go into effect tonight the way it has the last couple of nights? >> reporter: i'll tell you, what rachel -- last couple of hours, at first it was kind of calm, there had been a big march and rally, and people were exuberant. but folks started getting kind of chippy. i want to show you what's happening right now. a big group of protesters have locked arms and they were blocking the intersection.

now they're going directly into the middle of the street. a while ago the police helicopter circled and made an announcement for your own safety get out of the roadway. the size of the group that has taken over the roadway has gotten larger. they're locking arms and now consuming the entire roadway. meanwhile, there are police lining up on either side of the street. they don't look like they're in any position to take action but they're just watching. >> those people moving, are they moving toward or away from a police line? >> reporter: the police haven't established a line in the roadway. they're on either way waiting for an order. i did see the commissioner right around the corner. right now the police are in a holding pattern, just watching and waiting. the helicopters are starting to fly a little lower as you see them shining the light down. again, we're 15 minutes away,

folks are gathering, the crowd is swelling. you know what, it's only a matter of time. the last couple nights again they've been quiet, somewhat peaceful and a little after the curfew, folks started to dissipate. we'll see if tonight offers that same kind of thing. but as of right now folks look like they're ready to dig in a little bit. >> trymaine lee, we'll be back with you as this curfew settles in tonight 10 p.m. to 5 a.m. stay with us here. we're looking at night three of the curfew in baltimore.

so we're going to show you kind of a split screen here for a second. we're going to show you what's going on in the streets of baltimore as we head into the third night of curfew and state of emergency. on the other side of your screen, we're going to show you

something that happened on monday night in the middle of sort of the worst of the violence after that day of looting and violence and rioting in the streets of baltimore. billy murphy, who is a civil rights icon in baltimore, comes from a very prominent family of civil rights activists in baltimore. retained a lawyer. on monday night, he stood up and made a bit of a remarkable speech essentially at a press conference with the gray family appealing for calm and making a case for the country to understand what was happening in baltimore. watch. >> how many of you think this is the end of the -- of baltimore, maryland? nobody believes that. we are a similar city to almost everyone in this country. and this is happening all over the place. it's happening in big cities, small cities, medium sized cities, in rural areas. this is a part of our history.

you know, the first part of it was when the police were used to enforce slavery. that is not a moral endeavor. and after slavery came, segregation, clans, downtown. guess what the police regard after that? immoral laws. and then came the act of world war ii when black men came hopeful after risking their lives only to on be told they were [ bleep ] again. and then came the so-called civil rights era. where, as quickly as we gained the civil rights act of 1964 and 1965, there was a counterrevolution. his name was richard nixon. and he increased the number of police in the plaque community five fold. and it got worse.

there was a guy named ronald reagan who increased the -- leading out the black people four fold. then there was a guy named bill clinton. and he said nobody would be tougher on crime than him. and then finally we got this failed war on drugs, which increases dramatically the number of interactions between black men and the police. as there been an increase in police brutality? yeah. >> joining us now for the interview is william h. "billy" murphy. mr. murphy, thank you very much for your time. it's nice to have you here tonight. >> it's an honor to be on your show. >> oh, thank you, sir. let me ask you about the big picture specific to mr. gray. there's multiple investigations happening. state's attorney says she will do her own independent investigation. she has received information from the baltimore p.d. they say they are done with their investigation. some leaks have started to happen to the media about what

might have turned up in those investigations already. from your position as the gray family's attorney, what do you think the importance is, the status is right now of the investigation? >> well, i think the police have not finished their investigation because it would be stupid to do that. they're going to continue to pursue additional witnesses and follow additional leads. but that doesn't mean we have to and should have confidence in their ability to investigate themselves. that would be stupid. so that is why the state's attorney, marilyn moosby is conducted what she believes will be an independent and thorough investigation. she will take from the police investigation what she believes has integrity and add it to her own. likewise, there's a federal investigation where we think that will take a much longer period of time because that's extraordinarily thorough. and they have to reinterview everybody. and then there's ours and we intend to take advantage of all of these investigations to the extent of the law for men and

come up with what we believe is an accurate view of what happened that night. >> is part of what's going to happen here from your perspective, from the family's perspective, that the effort to get justice and accountability for mr. gray's death will be part of a larger agenda that the baltimore police needs to be reformed, that there need to be reforms in the city addressing broader issues? are you staying very narrowly focused on his killing? >> absolutely. there is a documented, long history, just in the last four years. you have over 300 cases that had to go before our board of estimates for approval. and then you have at least -- almost twice that many which did not have to go for approval. so that's a remarkably bad record of police brutality. and it's also a remarkably bad record of public officials giving a [ expletive ] and they don't and they haven't. but now they must. because the entire nation is

looking at this and they want to hold people accountable. i think the american people have gotten fairer and fairer as time goes on, especially young people. and they didn't realize this was going on because there are so many cover-ups for so long. and now that we have cell phones, video cameras, they're getting a taste of what reality is for black people. they don't like what they say. so yes, i have confidence. >> do you think the national attention is helpful? we're now starting to see national attention and policy proposals from national politicians. is that people just capitalizing on all the attention or do you think that will be helpful in baltimore? >> well, i think that there is an enormous amount of pressure for change, given what the public has seen in video after video after video. that stuff is real. that stuff isn't close to being fair. it touches the hearts of people regardless of their race, color, creed, whatever. so those people are now a part

of what we believe will be a national movement to end this, just like they were a part of the gay rights movement, just like when they saw the brutality involved in the civil rights era. they were quick to come to the aid of what's right. >> are you frustrated about the leaks to "the washington post", some of what is purportedly part of these investigations? >> well, you get used to it after a while. that doesn't mean it's good and we expected this from the police and their supporters because they're trying to change the focus from what happened to freddie gray the freddie gray himself. and that is what always happens. that, too, will pass and when we get to a courtroom, things will dramatically change. >> looking at 10:00 p.m., the first night of curfew, police are saying the curfews will be extended through the weekend, they may end on monday. do you think that has been constructive? do you think having the national guard in the street has been

constructive? the policing of the demonstrations, has it been contractive or has it been part of the problem? >> no one ever likes to call out the national guard because you don't know with any certainty how people who are not used to that level of force are going to react. but fortunately, things will work out. and i think it will have a prophylactic effect on future violence, at least we hope it will. >> the aclu tonight, some other organizations are calling for that curfew to be resended. they're saying the conduct of people in the streets and especially the way community leaders have stepped up and calmed things down when they needed calming down shows the people don't need a curfew. do you have any thoughts about that? >> well, curfews have always been controversial. and i generally support the view that they're illegal because everybody has the right to

peaceful assembly. it's guaranteed in the first amendment of the constitution. on the other hand, difficult times cause us to take temporarily, at least, a different view of the situation. it's like yelling fire in a crowded theater, that's not the exercise of your first amendment rights. so there is a balance that has to be instruct and i like it the way it is for now. but after a few days, i'm fought going to like it any more. >> billy murphy, william h. murphy jr., thank you so much for your time tonight. i'm glad you were able to make time for us. >> thank you for bringing me on your wonderful, wonderful program. >> you're very kind. thank you. joining us now is msnbc reporter trymaine lee in baltimore just ahead of the curfew. trymaine, are people clearing out? >> i'll tell you what, there is a crowd. the bulk of it has cleared out, but the helicopters are flying lower, shining the lights down

on the streets, giving the directive to disperse. the police chief is out here ahead of the curfew. he said his guys are trying to wait it out, they're hopeful things will work out. but, again, here we are, another night, another curfew. folks are hanging in there. >> and that motorcycle experience is just somebody showing off or is that a police situation? >> that certainly is somebody showing off. >> baltimore famous for its -- one of the things in baltimore is famous for. >> trymaine, in terms of one of the things we've seen the last couple of nights has been community leaders and others, people trying to be constructive in the streets telling people to leave, telling people to get home, not leaving it just to police to make those -- to make those arguments. are you seeing that tonight or is there no need for that tonight? >> you know, there's really no need. i did see a few of the players who had been out here night after night after night. but even as we speak, it's actually clearing out. so there doesn't appear to be any need.

but i know a lot of those folks, the clergy, have been working behind the scenes as well as on the front lines. but tonight, it's actually clearing out. day. good luck tonight. "first look" is up next. >> it's friday morning right now on "first look." as a baltimore curfew is enforced for a third night, hundreds rally in philadelphia and things get tense. meanwhile, major developments in the death of freddie gray. the second prisoner in the van with him speaks out. pope francis says even he can make mistakes and why this sea lion pup was found wandering the streets of frisk. good morning. thanks for joining us. more answers and many more questions. three major developments this morning in the death of freddie gray. a mysterious revelation about the van that was carrying him. a new report about what actua