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of conduct that have taken place. what i have to say for myself and the mayor and the governor is that we're extremely pleased and happy and applaud the citizens and residents of the city of baltimore and their activities. they're coming out, showing what baltimore is all about, which is helping each other, standing strong. although we've had two days of peace and quiet, we still have a weekend to make it through. i ask for your patience i ask for your understanding. >> in baltimore, the overnight curfew will remain in effect at least through the weekend. >> some residents took to the streets peace fly again last night, groups blocked traffic in a number of spots across baltimore, but at times police and protesters seemed to be mingling. two demonstrations planned for today. elsewhere, unrelated gun

violence spiked with five shootings thursday and around the country, more protests calling for justice for freddie gray. and in philadelphia hundreds gathered at city hall. the philly is baltimore rally. they proceeded to march through the streets and tie up traffic chanting black lives matter. it was a peaceful demonstration which led to a confrontation with police. protesters and officers began pushing each other. but the situation deescalated and no arrests have been reported. and in cincinnati an estimated 300 people gathered for more than an hour at the steps of the county courthouse a smaller group marched to police headquarters. no arrests there will either. >> welcome to "morning joe". joining us we have in new york mike barnicle, donny deutsche harold ford jr., steve rattner,

and in baltimore, white house correspondent april ryan. thanks for being with us. for the second straight day, there is a conflicting report about freddie gray's death in police custody. it comes from a local abc station in washington, d.c. and cites anonymous law enforcement sources that claim gray's fatal injuries occurred when he slammed into the back of a police van. that incident allegedly broke gray's neck. and he also reportedly suffered a head injury which matches a bolt in the back of the police van van. they say it is still unknown how gray suffered the head injury and what caused him to slam into the back of the police van. details reportedly come from the results of an internal police probe and preliminary findings from the medical examiner's office. but a spokesman for the medical

examiner tells the "new york times" that the investigation is still ongoing and, quote, we don't do preliminary findings. this comes just one day after the "washington post" reported that another prisoner in the van claimed gray was banging against the walls of the police van and trying to hurt himself. that man is breaking his silence to wbal's jane milleryne miller. >> what did you hear? >> i didn't hear nothing. it was a smooth ride we went straight to the police station. all i heard was a little bang for about four seconds. you know what i mean? i just heard little banging. just little you know what i mean -- boom boom just little banging. just little banging. >> reporter: alan described what he told homicide detectives. >> did you you tell the police that you heard him banging his head against the van? >> i told homicide that. i didn't work with the police. i did not tell the police nothing. when we got to the station, he said they didn't have no pulse or nothing. they called his name.

hey, mr. fwra mr. gray. he wasn't responsive. >> and another big development emerged as police submitted the ruts of their investigation to the state's attorney. officials say the police van made a previously unknown second stop. it was discovered after watching security camera footage from a grocery store. and msnbc has now obtained charging documents on gray's arrest. they say he fred unprovoked when he saw officers and that he was detained for allegedly possessing a switch blade. >> mike barnicle call me skeptical right now the baltimore police department is saying this man severeded his own spine by banging his head against a van wall. nobody will believe that in baltimore. and i've talked to a lot of doctors who don't believe it either. >> well, joe, the report that was leaked to the "washington post" a couple nights ago was clearly leaked by someone this

in the police department clearly cya, cover ass report, by the leaker. and you're right, i haven't spoken to a single medical person or police person actually who can believe that freddie gray severed his own spine in the back of that van and it could well have been that the banging that period heard, it do well have been that the banging people heard in the back of the van was freddie gray in such pain that he was trying to get someone's attention up front drive positioning the van. >> this is so much speculation. i agree with mike that the car could have been or the van could have been driving erratically. we're hearing reports it made more than one stop. who knows how the car was being driven. again, i believe that we should wait until the investigation ends. we'll probably hear more and more things like that. my hunch tells me that the injury suffered while the kid was in this van. but i'm going to withhold judgment until the investigation

concludes. >> the bottom line is we'll have to wait as harold just pointed out. we'll have to wait until the state's attorney gets hold of this investigation and pleatscompletes the investigation and we get real facts on paper and on the ground. >> you're right. here's the problem, though. april, i can tell you there are a lot of people not only in baltimore, there are a lot of people in the white house concerned about going into this weekend without the full investigation put out there the way that some people had suggested. and the only thing the residents of baltimore have going into the weekend is that the police are blaming this man who is now dead for kills himself. severing his own spine for banging his head grepsagainst the wall. that won't calm the people down in the streets of baltimore. >> let me say this i'm proud of those persons who are out in baltimore these last couple of days. they voiced their opinions said what they feel, but the level of

expectation, joe has been raised like you said. and what will happen is today when the report was supposed to come out to the public it's not going to come out. people are hearing things leaked from the police department, from all realms of baltimore. and we still don't know the total fact or report from the police department yet. but we do know this that freddie gray is dead. and we did know this that his neck was severed. how was it severed? we're hearing reports from jayne miller this baltimore at wbal talking about it happened within 14 minutes. we do know that something happened in that van. we do know that he got into that van. we're seeing video that he walked into the van on his own, but we do know there was also that second stop that unknown second stop that we wouldn't have found out about unless a supermarket video camera showed something. so there is a lot of variables up here and it seems like a lot of secrecy and what baltimoreans

want and everyone around this country really wants are answers. and the white house understands that they have a situation as well as baltimore city has a situation, people want answers. and they're trying to bring down all that level of expectation that was anticipated for today. >> it's what a lot of people are doing. the problem is obviously he gets in the van at the very end but you series wounded it appears when the police are dragging him. >> and his voice sounds like he's in agony. i think there are a couple things in terms of the level of expectations, yes, there may not be the answers they need in terms of investigational reports, those take weeks sometimes. but there has to be an understanding from leadership that they understand why the community is hurting, that they understand that something bad might have happened that something bad did happen. and that they want answers, too. >> more than just he banged his

head against the wall. >> nbc news has confirmed that the white house is reaching out to celebrities and athletes with ties to baltimore to help keep the calm there. joining us now from baltimore, national reporter tremaine lee. how are girls hoping this impacts the upcoming weekend? >> reporter: after days of relative calm as we know the situation still remains ten uhecontinue uhe us. delays and leaks have only seeded that. but you have officials like elijah consumings who have been on the front lines, a number of community organizations. but the whousite house is also making calls to various stakeholders, caramel la anthony and ray lewis who is the ultimate motivator. i think we have some sound of him speaking to area students. let's listen to what he had to say. >> we have a real opportunity. you know this time for me is about opportunity. that somebody find out who they really are through these trying times.

anybody can be fooled when everything is all right. but when adversity hits when true adversity hits that's when true character will be found. every young kid in this room right now we have an opportunity because the spotlight is on us. it's on baltimore. what we just started, what they say is tragedy in baltimore, we have an opportunity to change baltimore. >> that's right. so when you think about all the pain and all the disconnection, they're looking for folks who can really kind of tune into what is happening in this community and to the young people in this community. as we've seen when there is no connection, we see how bad things can turn out. mike. >> you know, donny, just watching that clip of ray lewis speaking to those young people in the auditorium this is about much more than freddie gray. it's about much more than baltimore. rehema ellis had a piece on earlier this morning and i think we'll have it later on today in which she's talking to a young man, 16, 17 years of age and he

says most kids don't have a father. most kids don't know their father. this is a 16-year-old young man from baltimore. that's the existence of too many young people not only in baltimore, but all around this country. >> obviously this investigation will turn up nasty news and be tied to that stop that was made. you kind of go once we pufmove on past this, what is the solution? where does this end? you can go to, okay there is no structure in the home in some of these communities. and how do you solve that. at the end of the day, no that's not the problem. the problem is cops misbehaving here. and i don't know what the answer is. we all sit here and pontificate, we all think we're really smart. what's the solution? this is one of those problems where you go i don't know. >> it's multifaceted and of course the economic situation

plays a big role whether the lack of a two family household is a cause or an effect either way you you get there, you have average incomes at the poverty line, half of the kids of school age not actually going to school. you have an employment roughly half the working age, people -- >> that doesn't change what happens with these cops. it's easy to say the fundamental reason for crime and poverty is some of these cultural things but to get through the day that's not what caused this kid's spine to break. >> it's not what caused the spine to break but it causes a culture where you have a lot of people on the streets who run employed, would may be carrying switch braidlades, doing it or that because they're not in school, don't have jobs. rising tensions and things happen that shouldn't happen. >> would you agree with the contention my contention that not just freddie gray, the freddie grays of this country, that before his spine was broken his spirit was broken

sf. >> no doubt about it. >> so one of the things i think you have to look at communities an neighborhoods across the country where you don't have these incidents happening, where you have predominantly minority or african-american hispanic community, middle class community, one common characteristic, you have stable households, you have people in the household working, kids believing their spirits are high believing from are opportunities and there is a future for them. we have to figure out -- we won't figure out this out in the next week to donny's pipt. i enjoyed watching ray lieu irks but lewis, but i'm not convinced that's the singular message. the kids have to believe that they have a future that their parents have something out there waiting for them. it won't be solved overnight, but it that conversation has to begin in earnest. the "daily news" tried to reignite that conversation, talking about a big investment plan in cities all across the country. >> joe, the president earlier this week in his remarks at the

news conference with the japanese prime minister he really put his finger on a real truth of this what is going on in baltimore and what's happening in the country in too many shadowy places that we don't pay attention to. when the president said this is nothing new, this is not new. and items not's not. >> and the president also said something i brought up yesterday, that it's right on the point to what donny was talking about before when he said that, you know, people not knowing their fathers and all these other problems didn't lead to his death. no, it didn't lead to his death. but that is a symptom of an underlying disease that is much much bigger. and as the president said, unfortunately, it's police officers who have to weigh into these parts of baltimore and other parts of the country that have been just absolutely beaten down. and like you said, had the hope beat be out of them.

i do want to push back slightly on something donny said saying that we're not going to be able to answer this right now. i think actually, mike you touched on it. one of the big problems and there have been some groups over the past 20 30 years that have talked about the need for fathers remaining engaged in their sons and daughters' lives. and there is just no doubt that if you don't have a family that is together you don't have a family unit whether they're even living under the same roof but everybody involved in a young man's live or young woman's life. and then you spread that out across an entire community, that causes a breakdownfve or young woman's life. and then you spread that out across an entire community, that causes a breakdowne or young woman's life. and then you spread that out across an entire community, that causes a breakdown not only in the family unit, it cause as breakdown in the community, in the culture. and this happens. and look, in baltimore, a lot of residents will tell you this, listen to this the outrage in the innercity is so much deeper. and it has to do with long

standing economic barrier, low educational achievement. and this broken criminal justice system. and there are so many statistics that are unbelievable. let's roll through this. because it makes it harder to break the cycle poverty. the unemployment rate in the city with more than 600,000 residents now stands at 8.1%. that's a lot higher than the 5.5% rate for the state of maryland. that even outperforms the national average. in west baltimore neighborhood where freddie gray lived, a third of the population lives in poverty. in terms of education 57% of the residents in that neighborhood have not advanced beyond aless diploma. only 4.4% have a bachelor's degree. and listen to this young people in that area have less of a chance to attend college than be if jail. a third of the residents are in state prison. and mika, i think most staggering of the statistics

that came out had to do with life expectancy. guy as do you know in 15 neighborhood life expectancy is lower than it is in north korea. april, in eight neighborhoods in baltimore, life expectancy is lower than it is in syria. that should make us think about how deep these problems are 40 miles from the nation's capital. april. >> joe, i'm going to say this. i guess i live in two worlds. i'm from baltimore. you have a city -- i'll give you another stat. 32% of the children in the city are in poverty. and when you say that many of them, their only meal is in school. and i'm going to talk to you about something else. this is something a couple of things, you knows we talk about the break towne of thedown of the

family, yes, there is a breakdown of the family. but there is a situation with the police department. let's talk about a police that i deal with 40 miles as you say from baltimore. washington, d.c.. the seat of power for this nation. when there is on money crunch when there is a problem with the budget, what is the first thing that is cut? it's money that is cut to urban areas or the poor. we hear about federal subsidies cut when it comes to the children going to school, school lunch programs monies for mothers with children single mothers with children. you know we talk about all this breakdown of the family but there is another group -- there is an onus on another group, washington. so we get all upset when we see this freddie gray situation, when we see trayvon martin, when we see eric gardner, when we see tamir rice. but there is life for these people during this before this and after this. and when i was on pennsylvania

north the other day talking to some of the people i said it's great for you to come down here and focus now but what happens after this? we've been dealing with this prior to. and as an african-american person who comes from northeast, northwest baltimore, who lives in the suburbs of baltimore now i see the pain i felt the pain i have family who is in the pain, i have family who lived near the pain. so i just find very interesting how we can put the onus on family when it's a lot of responsibility and a lot of different sectors to include in washington. >> april, the thing is, with me at least i can only speak for myself it's not an either/or. you can talk about the fact that most young men in this community are telling reporters harold ford that they don't know their father, they don't have a father, they don't have a strong force in their life. and at the same time you can say that washington and annapolis have left so many of

these people behind. as we were talking about yesterday, harold we need more investment this baltimore and i've said this all the time and i've said it repeatedly for years, that we're not going deeper in debt because we give poor people too much money. we're going deeper in debt this will anger a lot of other people watching today, but i've said it nonstop for years, because of middle class entitlements. that's right. medicare is -- you're not going to cut food stamps and take care of the systemic crisis with america's national debt. and for people who think they can slash funding for the poorks they poor, they can slash education and somehow fix the debt, harold, they're just not telling the truth. >> no and it's a gross, gross misperception and argument made by those who try to advance it. but that conversation while you were talking about families and

donny's point, i think it's fair donny had a point while we were off air that i think is relevant to this. amen to you, april. >> and picking up on april, joe unen foreignn unun ununfortunately, we sit around this table and he we can't give health care to 15 million that didn't have it. we have to cut entitlements. but you can't solve the problem if you cut it. you can't just say it's in the middle class. the entitlements do hit this community that everyone running for office wants to cut. and he we all philosophically clearly agree we have to put the family structure back in place, we have to help the communities but the reality is if we sat here and we all put our green visors on and went to steve rattner's chart, the only way we solve this is by increasing entitlements. >> wait, wait wait. i'm sorry. hold on a second steve rattner.

steve, let me chime in here because, again, i know there are people at the table that want to make this an either/or. it's just -- >> it's not a matter of -- there's a certain reality. >> no one wants to make it an either/or. >> it's not an either/or donny. let's have a real conversation here. anybody that talks about the need for fathers to stay engaged in their children's life suddenly people start pointing at conservatives and say you're cutting everything. >> they are. >> that's a fact. >> no i -- >> joe -- >> donny, let's me finish and then we'll go to steve rattner because steve, we've talked about debt for a very long time. you can actually be for saving the next skrep race of americans from a crushing debt that will destroy the economy and still be for funding inner cities. still be for funding education. that's at least where i am, steve. and when i talk about middle class entitlements, i'm talking

about people that make a million dollars that still are paying $200 for a $50,000 operation. i'm talking about the need for means testing for some of the wealthier americans. and i'll just say it again. we have to invest in these communities, we have to invest in education. all the things steve that we've been saying around this table for eight years. it's not an either/or. you can actually save the next generation from crushing debt and still invest more in these communities by not as we said yesterday spending $2 billion a week in afghanistan which we have been saying for ten years now. we need to stop investing and rebuilding other countries and start investing in our own country and rebuilding america. we've said it for ten years. i just refuse to have this be ap ets apeither an either/or agentrgument.

>> i agree it's a question about money. and you can take it wherever you want and invest in the community, do all the things we're talking about here. but where i may disagree with you, maybe i don't, is that's not what is on the table in washington. what is on the table in washington 34r5urly particularly from the republicans, but democrats have not been much better, but are not proposals reinvesting in what you say. >> it's not. and again, for people that watch this show, they know we say this ad nauseum. steve, this is something you and i agree with i have been complaining about, you have been complaining about, that for five six, seven, eight year people have been talking about balancing the budget by cutting discretionary domestic spending. i know it sounds like i'm getting deep in the weeds, but that's only 10%, 11% of the budget. and that is all of these

programs. that's education, infrastructure r&d. and they're slashing and burning this part of the budget because they don't want to take care of the bigger parts of the budget that are actually bankrupting us, whether it's increased spending at the pentagon, whether it's a runaway entitlement programs that don't impact the poor disproportionately like cuts in this part of the budget. we have to get some courage in washington, d.c. and get investment where we need investment. >> we'll continue this conversation. still ahead on "morning joe," we'll talk to a top forensic expert about the looming questions surrounding freddie gray's death. what should we be looking for in the autopsy report when it finally comes out? plus, the city councilman whose wife state's attorney, is now overseeing the investigation. plus how a guilty plea in the bridgegate scandal could impact chris christie's chances for the white house. we'll go live to the federal courthouse in new jersey where a former ally of the governor appears to be working with the feds.

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welcome back to "morning joe". i have no idea what the time is. that was a very long -- i think you might have been a tad bit long winded. >> you're putting that on me. >> i am. you went -- >> really? >> yeah. it was just like whoa we just went ten minutes over. but that's okay. about a we're at the tuck school of business at dart mouth here in hanover great to be here. thank you for having us. >> great to have you guys here. [ applause ] >> we're actually here because about six months ago, acceptseven months ago, kurt welling asked mika to come up and talked about the challenges women face in business, that they face not only getting a job, but getting their value. >> and negotiating and everything else that comes along with surging forward in the business community. and lasting and being retained

by your company. and tuck is really looking at developing these issues specifically around women, making sure that their graduates, which already have incredible data on not only their graduation rate, but their jobs that they get out of coming here. >> they're doing incredible work here and we'll talk a lot more about the challenges women face and obviously about knowing your value, growing your value. >> and we met some amazing women last night, we'll talk more about that coming up. also coming up, did rand paul blow it on baltimore? why the senator's own staff members say he missed a critical opportunity. we'll be right back with much more "morning joe" live from hanover, new hampshire. (music)

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with us now with the politico playbook jim vandehyde. politico has a story about how rand paul looked clueless on one of the central issues of his campaign. obviously rand has been saying that he was going to expand the party's base.

he was on an interview with laura ingraham and had a quote about baltimore that my god, i know he wishes and his staff wishes he could have back. >> yeah, he basically made this sort of flippant remark about how i was on a train going through baltimore and i didn't want to bother to stop. he was such a hot political commodity because he would take on tough issues. but on this baltimore issue, he's been really clumsy. if you think about it one of the central issues of his campaign is talking about broadening the party as you mentioned, but also getting criminal justice reform which is a huge issue particular in the big cities. one of the underpip pippinnings of the problems. and yet he's silent again. and this to me has been a trend for him this year. he's been surprisingly clumsy politically speaking. obviously he can recover from it, but it doesn't help him when

he's looking at a really high quality republican field and trying to stand out. this didn't help. >> jim, another one of the candidates potential candidates for president, martin o'malley former mayor of baltimore, former governor of maryland returned to his city, he still lives there earlier this week, and he created or helped create the massive, massive number of arrests that the police department began to undertake in the mid-90s to attempt to attack the drug problem in baltimore. tell us about what happened to him this week in maryland. >> he's another one who has had a very tough week politically. largely for the reasons that you just talked about. if you go back to the '90s, it was popular thought inside the republican party, democrat he can party, to be tough on crime, to have strong sentencing laws and to look at the criminal and not the causes.party, to be tough on crime, to have strong sentencing laws and to look at the criminal and not the causes. now that's flipped. you see hillary clinton and martin o'malley having to deal

with the cops defensesquens consequences of policies they had vow indicatedadvocated previously. and they have to flip their positions to match where the public is headed. and if you step back even further, potlitics are spreading rapidly rapidly. rand paul we just talked about, republicans struggling for the right message. the budget debate that will come up in washington you have a republican budget that cuts funding for a lot of these urban programs. and you'll have republicans having to defend that at a time that they're increasing defense spending. and so baltimore is a big issue, a big national issue, a big social issue. it's now a big political issue. >> all right. jim, thank you very much. up next we'll return to baltimore where city council mapman brandon scott is standing by. weed killers are overzealous. they even destroy your lawn. ortho weed b gon kills weeds...

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a bit of a debate earlier and one of the issues that came up with the breakdown of the family unit especially in cities across the country. of the 235 arrests this baltimore monday night, police say 34 were juveniles. rehema ellis finds out what lessons some of the young people and their parents are taking away from this week's unrest. >> reporter: when baltimore streets erupted in flames earlier this week, carlos brooks couldn't believe what he was seeing. >> i was sitting in the house looking at it on tv and was just shocked that it was going on. >> reporter: he immediately thought of his second oldest child, his 16-year-old son. >> my dad called my and told me don't go out there. don't go out there. he told me. >> what did you do? >> went out there at nighttime. thought i was slick.

>> reporter: for the first time ever with no previous record, carlos jr. was arrested. his dad says for looting. being in police custody was beyond expectations. >> you you had chains around your ankles? >> yes, ma'am. >> what was that like? >> felt hard to walk. felt i was going to fall. i can't handle it. that's what i felt like. felt like a caged animal. >> he didn't come from a broken home. me and his mother might not be together, but he was still raised with morals and guidance. >> reporter: learning his son was arrested brooks' next thought was of freddie delay and wondered what happened to his own son. >> my kids are my life that's all i think about. >> reporter: brooks doesn't want his son to be another statistic. >> i don't want the streets to end my son. i will fight to not let the streets have him. >> how much do you appreciate that he stands here with you? >> a lot. most kids don't have a father that do this.

most kids don't even know their father. >> if you had to do it all over again, what would you do? >> would i have stayed in the house. >> reporter: for carlos skrrjr., an encounter with the criminal justice system that both he and his father hope never to repeat. >> you know, mike barnicle, we've been talking about it before. we've all said around the table the best social policy is a job best social program is a job. we showed that package to show what we showed when fathers are engaged, when mothers are engaged. we certainly saw that too, that also the best protection for so many young men and women in these cities are when their parts are there and when their parts are engaged. and here are two shining examples of the difference parents can actually make. >> well, joe, you're right.

but there is also another element to the piece that carlos jr. was speaking about. and it's that families are fractured. environments like we've been watching all week in every major city families are fractured by lack of access to the employment where the jobs are maybe three, four, bus rides away fractured by lack of access to excellent medical attention, lack of access to really good school. and what you end up with is a lot of kids whose principal points of entry in on the government system that we're all familiar with come from s police arriving probation officer emergency room nurses, school 250e67 250e67 teachers who provide perhaps the safest place all day, their only hot meal. all of this will be under consideration as budget is being

discussed in washington, d.c. as april alluded to. >> the republican budget cuts these things. and i hope paul ryan addresses some of that when he comes on the show today. >> we hope he does. >> joining us now from baltimore city, city councilman brandon scott. i guess, first of all, we're looking for answers. and you're looking ahead to a weekend where there will be few. what are you looking for from the state's attorney and from leadership in terms of keeping the calm but also getting real answers instead of leaks? >> well, right now i'm looking for the state's attorney to do what she's been doing and that's just focusing on the investigation. i'm not expecting her to turn something over immediately, i would not want that. i would not want that if that was my family member. the gray family does not want her rushing this investigation and the rest of us in the city have to wait and be patient and understand that she's capable of doing her job and she'll do that. and while she's doing that we should -- people should continue to peacefully protest, they should continue to be angry but they have to be patient and

understand that she'll have to go through that process. she has one time to get this right. in order for her to do that we have to allowler the space to do so. >> and what about what we've heard so far is there any sort of understanding why the community is frustrated and is there a way to connect with the community to help them maybe perhaps restore a modity consume of trust so that protests stay people. >> i think a lot of that has to do with the people organizing the protests. they have done a great job, they had an executed protest throughout the city, through downtown back to penn station without incident. so we know it can happen. young people are the ones who leads the best protests. they do a great job. and also we can repair the city moving forward, we'll have to repair relationships.

people -- everyone in the city of baltimore will have to be doing uncomfortable things moving forward. the segment that you just had is very key, it's very key. last year 2014 i made the call i said where are the men. these boys are dying for their attention. this is what we need to do. and we have to understand from a federal government level on down in this country that in order to rebuild our cities and in order to restore families and our communities to safe communities throughout it's not just a city thing. in rural america, there are the same issues. we have to invest in families. there are organizations like center for urban families that we need to spend federal dollar government and state dollars on trying to invest in the family. it won't happen just because we want to.

>> for people wholive in the poverty stricken areas of baltimore, april, i think there is a missing link where people who are really in this who are living this, experiencing this need to hear not only that help is on the way, which they're not hearing, but that there is a sense among leadership that something is wrong. am i wrong? >> no you're not wrong. and mika you hit the nail. as i report out of the white house every day for the last 18 years, i've seen that the african american community particularly in areas like baltimore have disproportionate numbers in every category. and that is something, joe, that is a stat it's real but i wanted to ask councilman scott something as relates to what mika said. what are the lessons learned from this and what is actually going to happen once the cameras leave? i'm talking about immediately to

prevent another freddie gray situation. what internally will happen within the police department and how will you work in the community to prevent this sense of hopelessness that we're hearing at penn and north and the other lower income areas of the city? >> it has to happen immediately. once the -- yes ma'am. once the dust settles, folks will have to do things. the police tent knowdepartment knows they have to change the way they act. before this happened, we were trying to arrange a sports league in one of our neighborhoods where the police officers will be the coaches. they will have to interact with the kids, they will have to be trained different, they will have to go out in the streets differently. but also i think it's very key to understand that we'll have to have the government go to the people, but we have to advocate for funding that helps with families. this is something that is very important. in baltimore, even in that neighborhood areas in west baltimore, we just got a billion dollars for school construction and renovation but i on which

say if we send jop than to a new $8 million school but he's going home to a family that essentially is broken and the communication is so bad with his family, he's still at zero. we have to rep all around the board. and the parents, if we really wanted to invest in our city, we have to spend thorough dollars on building infrastructure. all that impacts the jobs parents can have. so this conversation will have to happen immediately, but also conversation that we'll have for years to come. and really as men, we have to get people out and just get them active in the lives of these young people. that is very critical as well. >> let me just follow up because earlier you said where rts men. tell us what you meant by that. >> where are the men? i know growing up, i could have easily been fred gi gray for it not being that my dad and my uncles were in my life growing up. why are the men? when i go to the schools, most of the time i'm the only man that they see every day.

i'm the only positive male that they know. because in your previous story, you know a lot of these young men don't know their fathers, their grandfather, they have no positive male role model. we have 600,000 people in the city. there is no excuse for every young man and every young woman in the city to not have a positive mentor male or female in their life. where are the men? when you go to community meetings you optonly see for the most part women. a few do great things, but a lot more are sitting ol sidelines and they have to get out and be engaged. when men are protecting our community, we do not see this. when the men are engaged, we do not see these things. so many young men are not being engaged in a positive way by real men. >> councilman scott, we can't thank you enough for being with us today. thank you and thank you so much for your message. we greatly appreciate it. mika, he's exactly right.

people in washington, d.c., commentators like to say you just need to throw billions of more dollars at a problem. again, i say this at somebody that always talks about the need for investment in these inner cities. and in education. and in poverty programs. in job training programs. but if you don't take care of the societal ills like the councilman was talking about then as he said you can send somebody to an $8 million school, but it does absolutely no good if when they go home they have a shattered home life. >> it's hard enough to raise kids when the family structure is in place. still ahead, we'll look at the woman who will ultimately decide whether there will be any charges in freddie gray's death. ilor, and my daddy. thank you mom, for protecting my future. thank you for being my hero and my dad. military families are thankful for many things. the legacy of usaa auto insurance could be one of them. our world-class service earned usaa the top spot in

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these protesters are glapdingglapd ing demanding answers. >> outrage is so much deeper. it's about the economic barriers and broken criminal justice system. >> task force in charged investigating gray's death turned over its findings. >> this does that mean the investigation is over. >> but the police it reveal surprising new evidence in gray's arrest. >> the second stop has been revealed to us and was previously unknown to us. >> today's revelation was another surprise to a city that is already on edge. >> how bad is it going to get before they give justice to this family? >> any account of mr. gray intentionally banging his head against something is not possible. >> all i heard was like a little

banging for like four seconds. >> they're trying to make it seem that i told them that freddie gray did to himself. why the [ bleep ] would he do that to himself? >> that man heard something on the other side of the van. the question is what was going on. >> welcome back to morning joe oig. mike barnicle donny deutsche and steve rattner still with us in new york. and joining the conversation anchor from world news america caddie kay. and there a conflicting report. >> it comes from the local station in washington with a and cites anonymous sources that claim gray's fatal injuries occur when he slammed into the back of the police van. that incident allegedly broke gray's neck and he also reportedly suffered a head injury which matches a bolt from the back of the van. sources say there was no evidence that he suffered the injuries while police officers tried to arrest him. but they say it is still unknown

how gray suffered that head injury and what caused him to slam into the back of the police van. the details reportedly come from the results of the internal police probe and preliminary findings from the medical examiner's office. but a spokesman for the medical examiner tells the new york time that the investigation is still ongoing and, quote, we don't do preliminary findings. this comes just one day after the "washington post" reported another prisoner in the van claimed gray was banging against the walls of the police van and trying to hurt himself. now that man is breaking his silence to jayne miller. and telling a different story. >> once you for the in the van, what did you hear? >> i didn't hear nothing. it was a smooth ride. we went straight to the police station. all i heard was like a little banging for about four seconds. i just heard little banging. just little -- you know what i mean? boom, boom -- just little

banging. >> allen described what he told homicide detectives when questioned. did you tell the police that you heard him banging his head against the van? >> i told homicide that. i don't work for the police. i continue tell the police nothing. when we fwt to the police station, they said he didn't have no pulse or nothing. they were calling his name, hey, mr. gray mr. gray. he wasn't responsive. >> well, jayne joining us from outside baltimore city hall. a lot of moving parts here. the young man we just heard from -- >> welcome to our world. >> exactly. but how does he fit into the investigation? what is your gut? >> well, not my gut, but clearly defense lawyers will seize on him if this comes to a civil or criminal matter because he says, oh, i heard him hitting his head in the van so they will say, see, that's how this injury occurred. we have reported very consistently for more than a week that this case focuses on how that injury occurred inside

that vap becausen. the autopsy does say there is no other injury. there is no bruising, no broken bones, nothing to suggest that the injury occurred outside the van during that initial arrest and most importantly as it pertains to donte allen the man you just heard from, there is no evidence of medical injury to suggest he beat his head against the van. you would need shall kindome kind of bruising, et cetera. so he's significant in two ways. yes, a defense lawyer will seize on it. the other thing that he told us and i don't know if you jirsuyou just lettered it, when they finally reached the western district, he could hear the police officers saying mr. gray, pl mr. gray, and he was unresponsive. the police officer said he doesn't have a pulse. we have reported that yes at

that point he was not breathing and he didn't have a pulse. and then donte allen says they got allen out of the van first to take care of him before tending to freddie gray. this case mika and joe, as we have said is about care and custody and the possibility of criminal negligence. and those are the things that add up to criminal negligence. first of all unsecured in the van while shackled and handcuffed. two, looking at him, examining his condition and not calling a medic. three, you get to the police station and now you can see that he's probably near death he's not breathing, and instead of saying holy cow, call 911, what do you do? you take care of the other guy who is perfectly fine first. all of those things add up to a picture of criminal negligence and that's where this case is focused. >> jayne first of all, your reporting this week has been overwhelming. we want to tell you that.

secondly, what jumped off the page to me in terms of a long time covering cops is how did this extra stop that was just reported recently within the past day or so how was this not reported before? do you know whether it was reported before internally and what is the story on the extra stop? >> okay. really good question. why wasn't it reported before. because the van wagon driver knows he made that stop. so, yes, that was never a part the initial -- of the original police time line. the reason we know about it now is because on a private security camera you see it. so the other video that we've seen is from the city's camera system which was obviously available to the city police can tent immediately. investigators have gone back over these routes to see if there is other video, everybody has video, and that's how it appears. let me tell you what i think is really significant about that. so i think based on the time line that i've put together through our reporting on this, that stop occurs within 14

minutes of freddie gray being first put into that police wagon. and that -- why is that stop made? why is the van driver making that stop at that point? is it because he's heard something in the back of the van and he thinks he needs to check on the prisoner? here's why i say that. we know a few minutes later he made another stop and then called for a supervisor to come and check on the prisoner's status. and at that point, police commanders say the police should have called for a medic. so what i think is very significant about this additional stop is that it really narrows down the opportunity for this injury to have occurred and the time line for this injury to have occurred. and again, getting back to my previous what i said about they go against about negligence care and custody, if they can narrow it down to when it occurred, that means it was another 60 minutes before freddie gray reached shock

trauma here in baltimore. way too long. >> let's move on from the police for a second and now talk about city leadership during this crisis and specifically about the mayor. we have seen some moments where let's just say the mayor's lack of leadership at times is seen jarring. last night i saw a clip of her walking through a crowd with reporters abdominalnd al sharpton was there with her, her eyes were almost glazed over. al sharpton was talking to reporters and she wasn't. it was yet another jarring moment there. what is the take from baltimore residents and also reporters on this mayor's performance? >> well, i think there has been some criticism of her performance and her lack of decisiveness. monday there was a lot of review

of that. it is a fast moving story but at some point, there will be a lot of review of what happened monday. you heard governor larry hogan newly elected republican governor in deep blue maryland say he twridried to reach her three or four times on monday and no one answered the call. and she said well, he's a new executive, he's a rookdyie, not experienced. meantime, people were begging for someone to be decisive. and the optics of there are that the maryland governor is kind of taking charge. and the mayor has taken aback seat to that. and that is a -- that will continue to be kind of something that kind of boils under the surface of the whole investigation and everything else that will happen in this case. is the political ramification and the political fallout of her performance during this whole time. she has a primary now 11 months from now in april of 2016. >> lrt all right.

jayne miller, thank you very much. and you know i think one of the issues as we break the conversation out a little bit is clearly answers. it almost feels i think definitely some say from members of the community that the answers are coming out stacked depends them and there isn't a sense of understanding and almost sympathy to how people in the poverty stricken areas feel at this point in light of what happened with freddie gray. and the answers that are trickling out almost seem to be setting up something where the police have nothing to do his death. we have to wait for the state attorney's official report but it didn't seem like in terms of leadership there is any understanding for the feelings on the street which is maybe something you were touching on. >> you speak to community leaders in baltimore, it's clear there is not very much in this report that reassures them or

that they think will quiet the tensions in the city. it plays into the perception that we know about in all of polling that we see on this black americans are much less confident that the police are going to treat them fairly and also much more confident that the police will be held the accountable than white americans are. and i think what you're seeing here in the process of how this report has come out, the leaks about the noise in the van, why was that the one detail that came out before the police report, all of this seems to be leading up to a picture of the police trying to protect themselves and saying look this didn't happen in such a way thamp that implicates us rather than coming out openly and honestly. what we've been talking about earlier in the program about the state of some of the neighborhoods in baltimore and how down trodden people feel from an economic point of you view, from an education appointment of view, from a security point of view, none of what's happened in baltimore

will make those people feel any better. >> let's go to joy reid, she's been in baltimore all week covering this story. joy, with a can you tell us about the charging documents on gray's arrest that have been obtained by msnbc what do they tell us? >> reporter: well, joe one of the questions that people have been asking continuously is what prompted freddie gray to be stopped by police in the first place. the documents only sort of clarify that the initial stop was because upon seeing police, he fled or he tried to avoid police officers who then stopped him and then the narrative that is on that document that was submitted to the superior court here in maryland says that the police officers that then stopped him found a spring-loaded knife, a switch blade inside of his right pocket. some of the people that we've been talking to as we've been walking around maryland were questioning how police could have probable cause to know he had a switch blade inside the

pocket of his jeans. so that's caused a fair amount of more questions to be raised about why he was stopped in the fist place, but essentially just avoiding or fleeing away from the police was what prompted the stop. second thing that was interesting is that it describes the ride to the police precinct but it doesn't account for any stops. he just says he was loaded without incident but then suffered an injury while being transported to the precinct and that they hadded to stop and get him medical attention. >> joy, donny deutsche. has there been anymore attention paid to the thing that would solve this immediately are cameras. we have big brother looking ats everywhere. cameras in police vans, cameras on police trucks. when will we get to the point where we get there? then there are no mysteries anymore. very very simple. and has there been anymore outcry as a result of this in baltimore and across the

country. >> reporter: there was an issue i believe in baltimore with this mayor of whether or not her going they were going to do body cameras on every police officer. and there was some back and fort forth with the union, and i think bed cameras was a part of that. police unions tend not to like the idea. in maryland, i believe part of the issue is whether desk assigned officers would have to have those body cameras on them at all times. issues of privacy. but i think for most people, ordinary citizens that you talk to would like to have whatever supervision can be added to the policing of their community. so body cameras, yeah. i think they would like to have them provided police officers keep them on and don't switch them off. so i think in these encounters, it would definitely shed a lot of light on what happened. in the case of freddie gray, the question of whether he was injured before or ter theafter the

van, all of those things would be helped. >> joy reid thank you as always. greatly appreciate you coming on and reporting. obviously, mika body cameras in baltimore, this has been an issue before, we talked about it earlier in the weak where you actually had the city council urging the mayor to go ahead and pass a bill that would put body cameras on police officers. the hair said she was going to veto the bill. the police union didn't want it. she said she wanted to do a study instead which of course is the way politicians push things off. and the city council people were urging her at the time said because of all of the abuse that we had from the police department this does there will be an explosion. city council warning about that last november obviously looking and positionthinking what a difference bed cameras would have made in this incident. >> so a bit of breaking you

news. the justice department is announcing now $20 million in funding to local law enforcement agencies for body cameras. the matching grants with part of the obama administration's three year plan to equipment 50,000 officers. a third round will be corrected towards smaller law enforcement agencies. so we'll see more movement on this. >> when you have people like ray kelly coming to the side of body cameras, this is something we said after ferguson, after eric gardner, this is an idea whose i'm has come and i think people on both sides of the aisle and even a lot of people in police unions now agree with. >> still ahead on "morning joe," what the forensics say about freddie gray the case and we'll talk to one of the country's leading authorities who has weighed in on case ranging from jfk to jonbenet ramsey. plus baltimore city councilman who represents the neighborhood

where freddie delay livegray lived will join the conversation. rtec® for powerful allergy relief. and zyrtec® is different than claritin®. because it starts working faster on the first day you take it. zyrtec®. muddle no more™ . the new s6 hits the stores and i'm like... whoa. open the box and... (sniffing) new phone smell. jump on a video chat with my friend. he's a real fan boy, so i can't wait to show this off. picture is perfect. i got mine at verizon. i... didn't. it's buffering right out of the box he was impressed. i couldn't be happier. couldn't see him but i could hear him... making fun of me. vo: now get $200 or more when you trade in your smartphone for a galaxy s6 but hurry, this offer ends may 10th.

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welcome back to "morning joe". we'll change jurisdictions and go from baltimore to newark, new jersey with the latest on the ongoing bridgegate investigation. we're just learning of a court hearing and host of up with steve kornacki aptly named steve kornacki is with us. so what is going on on in chris christie's life today? >> it's a big question, but after months are or maybe even a year of speculation, it looks like today is the day that that begins. we've received word that at 11:00 a.m. there will be a, quote, proceeding of interest in the federal courthouse here in newark right behind me. there have been reports in the last few days that david wildstein, one of chris christie's top appointees at the port authority, who was critical

of the lane closure, david wildstein who has claimed through his attorney that governor christie knew during those closures about those closures and that evidence exists, there has been reporting this week that he has cut some sort of a deal, a plea deal with federal prosecutors. if that is true that could well be what that hearing is at 11:00 a.m.. details of what david wildstein would be admitting to. there is also now scheduled a press conference for a 1:00 p.m. today with the united states attorney for new jersey. and again, speculation a lot of sort of moving part, but speculation is that if there is that wildstein piece, if that's taken care of at 11:00 and that press conference at 1:00 there might then be an announce the of the indictments in this case and all the other name all those other figures that we've talked about for the last year we could then talk about who if any of them federal prosecutors have decided they want to indict. again, a lot of moving parts here here. the other big x factor, david samson the closest to chris

christie former chairman of the port authority, a lot of people think if it there are announcements today, his piece of this may have been separated from it, may come later. but again, we didn't know. it could come today, as well. what we do know 11:00 a.m. a proceeding of interest in the courthouse here. 1:00 p.m. a press conference with the u.s. attorney. so i think finally we'll start to get some answers today. >> and that means that we'll be hearing from you later on this. thanks very much for the information. joe, big day for chris christie up there. >> very big day for chris christie and of course it could cut against him or obviously if he's cleared that could actually be when he decides to launch his campaign for president. we shall see. right now let's go back to baltimore where all eyes are now on baltimore's newly elected state's attorney, marilyn mosby. she will ultimately decide whether to bring charges. she released a statement yesterday saying in part quote, we have been briefed regularly throughout the police

department's process while simultaneously conducting our own independent investigation. we are not relying solely on their findings but rather the facts that we have gathered and verified. now, the 35-year-old became the youngest top prosecutor in any major american city after decisive win in last year's midterm election. she campaigned on the promise of putting violent repeat offenders behind bars and pledged to restore public trust in the criminal justice system. mosby was an attorney for an insurance company before running for office. and she also served as a prosecutor in the office she now runs. she comes from a long line of police officers her mother her father and her grandfather all members of the boston police department. >> and joining us now from baltimore, baltimore city councilman pick mosby. he represents the neighborhood where fredie gray lived.

and you're also the husband of the state's attorney. give us a sense of how she's approaching this investigation and how you all balance this in the community. >> well, there is a clear demarcation. i'm a councilman. at the end of the day, i represent the voices of my constituents. freddie was my constituent, his family that community there. so that is my job, my role to ensure that the proper city services are getting to them and that their voices are heard down at city hall. as far as our job, there is a clear demarcation between those roles. and she's approached this like she's approached everything throughout her life. whether that is dreaming about being a top prosecutor, whether about going to boston college law school to seeing her dreams come true. so she's been preparing for this day for quite some time. she has always had this keen eye on wanting to be a prosecutor

based off of some events that took place in her life. her childhood closest person her cousin, was murdered right outside her house. she heard the gunshots. and she was able to -- her family worked with the prosecutor and person was convicted ultimately. and that just really had a very young age got her very interested in the criminal justice system specifically around being a prosecutor. >> so, nick mosby, you represent district seven. tell me about the people in your district. are they feeling like they're getting the answers they need? and how would you characterize the sense of trust that the community has in city leadership? >> prior to any of this there was a huge distrust specifically of the criminal justice system. and i think that it's been documented well by the media why they have been here. i think the problem with this particular case is when the police department came out with it they weren't able to really

tell folks why freddie gray was a suspect, detained and arrested and then also what he was charged with. and that basic information while he laid in shock frautrauma was information the community desperately wanted and they at the present time get it. so i think that helped to glow the skepticism and sx asserexacerbate the distrust.time get it. so i think that helped to glow the skepticism and exacerbate the distrust. and as weefs've seen the investigation go on, some time lines have changed and i think it's growing a lot of skepticism in the community. >> let's bring in katty kay. she has a question. >> councilman i was wondering particularly your relationship with your wife and what you know of your community, one of the things we hear after events like this is that members of the community don't trust that the police will be held accountable because the police work very closely with state prosecutors. the state prosecutors depend on police forces to some extent to do their jobs. so how do you square this?

your wife is the prosecutor in this case. state attorney in this case. but the public is not going to believe that the police are going to get the kind of investigation that they need. >> what i'll say to that, at the end of the day, right now in maryland in city we have the city's state's attorney. and i think in her election which was a huge upset victory to many of the folks outside of the community they sent the clear message they wanted change and that change was my wife. so i think that many folks in the community are excited, many folks in the community have pull confidence. when she first came out and talked about this case, she said that she was doing her own independent investigation. i think many folks in the community again think there is a lot of integrity there and have a lot of respect and trust and confidence in her that she will get toot bottom of the bottom of the

truth. >> you were monday night on another network interviewed and a lot of focus was about the 4r509ing and rioting and you switched the conversation to some of the social realities or attempted to and you you might have walked away from the interview. give us a sense of what the social realities are and the kinds of things in addition to this police investigation which we all hope and prayer will reach the conclusion that the facts come out and mr. gray gets the justice that many believes he deserves. but what are the social realities you were speaking to in that interview? >> well, in the height of a lot of the chaos that took place here in west baltimore on monday, i was at ground zero i was on the street. i was on north and full top and pennsylvania avenue. and the reporter just wanted to keep focusing on the looting of this one particular liquor store. and i said we can continue to talk about the what but let's start focusing on the why and not providing any excuses saying that it's completely

unacceptable, but the behavior that we were seeing from our young adults i thought was just characteristic to them acting out for social ills that have plagued their communities for decades. unfortunately, i had the ability of coming on "morning joe" and intellectually spelling out my thought process of things and my feelings. but unfortunately, when you deal with folks who have been in abject poverty, who haven't had that necessarily access to quality education, they don't have the things that we are all afforded to in life, unfortunately, they were speaking through their violence and their actions, that's their emotions. so they wanted the cameras to feel their pain. and i want folks to know this is decades old poverty. these young men out there, they're living through their grandfather's pain their father's pain. and if we want to be serious about really growing america, really growing our cities, we really have to be serious about these invisible children that grow up in it urban america that aren't necessarily afforded the same opportunities that most

americans are. >> all right. councilman nick mosby, we thank you so much for being with us. we greatly appreciate it. and i hope that you will come back again very soon. still ahead on "morning joe," baltimore police have finished their internal investigation in the death of freddie gray. we'll be looking at some of the key questions about his injuries straight ahead. and whether the story that the police are giving us holds up. there's some facts about seaworld we'd like you to know. we don't collect killer whales from the wild. and haven't for 35 years. with the hightest standard of animal care in the world, our whales are healthy. they're thriving. i wouldn't work here if they weren't. and government research shows they live just as long as whales in the wild. caring for these whales, we have a great responsibility to get that right. and we take it very seriously. because we love them. and we know you love them too.

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welcome back. we're here on the campus of dart mouth college, we're at the tuck school of business. >> you have great memories from dart mouth. >> i have so many memories here. my brother went here. and i've been here a lot.mouth. >> i have so many memories here. my brother went here. and i've been here a lot. joining us now the president of dartmouth college. i have shall i have some great memories. i'll tell you about them later. right downhe co-op stand

ngts rain with a former by friend, that was just the beginning. but we'll talk about it later. but you're on the forefront of an issue that is plaguing campuses across the country. i did a panel on tina brown's women of the world event on sexual assaults on campus. obviously it's a big issue washington is looking at. dartmouth is really on the cut edge. >> it is an issue that plagues every campus. and just to be clear, one sexual assault is one too many. we need to put a stop to it. it's particularly intense on our campus because we're known for such tight community, so when one student harms another or harms themselves it tears the place apart. >> what kinds of programs have you put in place to look at this? >> so we're taking every possible known approach that is evidence based.

so we have a zero tolerance judicial process thousand. if you are found guilty of severe sexual assault, you're out of here. we have put in place a leadership and wellness program in athletics, this is terrific. has amazing results in terms of not only promoting academic success, but also wellness and leadership. we are starting a four year education program. so just anything that we know that we can do that tackles this issue, we're after. >> and also you're obviously banning hard alcohol at undergraduate events sflp. >> we are. we've made a lot of progress and what we've found is the remaining issues largely revolve around hard drinking.

>> i think that's a great move. >> what are some of the great challenges facing hire education especially at one of the better colleges in america? ? it's a time transformation disruption. i think there are three big forces pushing higher education. one is the promise of technology. one is globalization. and the last is that the historic funding model for higher education is unsustainable unsustainable. so all those things mean that the next couple decades will be a huge shakeout in hidegher ed. >> you hear a lot about student debt they're paying off debt for years. and you talk about it being unsustainable. so what are we looking for as a new model for higher education? >> so i think that one thing that is important is to understand why we've had such in-flation of sticker cost.

if you look at the sticker price for higher ed it's grown 2% to 3% above inflation for like 40 years in a row. so why is that? a little bit of that is due to need-based aid. we take some of the funding and we apply it to people who have great theed.need. but that's a little less than 1% of that. and the rest of that growth above inflation is how we handle innovation. and so great colleges and universities like dartmouth need to be innovating all the time teaching this new ways doing new kinds of research. and what we've done is we've innovated by addition rather than substitution. having the discipline of saying what 1.5% of our spend can we stop doing, we've just added it to the cost. >> thank you very much. thank you for having us here. i love talking at the tuck

school 6of business. >> and of all the things that are impressive about this campus, i think the most impressive thing is that you all have survived despite the fact that sam stein graduated from here. >> oh, right. >> i'm not sure how you've done that. >> did he really graduate h. graduate from here? >> we can check that out. >> i think you should. i feel like i graduated from here. we have stories. >> great to have you back. >> it is great to be here. and you guys can go off and tell aller horror stories about your boyfriend. coming up next can someone nearly receiver their own spinal column? >> i can't believe we're asking this question. >> top criminal justice and forensics experts join you us next right here on "morning joe". i'll just tell you, a lot of them are highly skeptical that what the police are reporting holds up. ♪ eight time zones later... you finally reach this booking lavish tokyo hotel. and so does: jetlag

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our task foorsrce charged with investigating the tranlg iicgic death of freddie gray turned over their results. this does not mean that the investigation is over. >> that was baltimore police commissioner anthony batts yesterday on the investigation into freddie gray's death. joining us in new york associate professor at john j. college of criminal justice, and in pittsburgh professor at the university of pittsburgh dr. wecht. good to have you both. joe and i have been asking a lot of questions about spinal cord injuries. mike, take it away. >> it's a huge issue that has been raised. dr. wecht, we're not asking you

to solve this situation on television obviously, but given your extensive experience across many years as a pathologies, is it in your experience possible for a self induced crack of the spine by a person riding in a police van? >> i do not believe so. i do not believe there would have been sufficient room within that van for him to generated the speed to produce that degree of force. energy equals one-half mass times velocity squared. simply put, velocity is the significance factor. where are you going to generate that speed by running six, eight feet and then banging yourself up against the wall. three vertebral fractures, and we have yet to have them identified whether cervical thoracic, not easily accomplished in a person with strong bones. this is not an 85-year-old woman with osteoporosis.

to hurl yourself up against the van with such force as to produce three fractures not only fractures that are linear and displaced, a crack here or chip there, but fractures that are so disclosed as to impinge into the spinal canal that is surrounded on out sides by bone severing as we are told 80% of his spinal cord. no, he's are injuries that you see in high speed motor vehicular collisions, people jumping or falling from high buildings. toes those are the kinds of say in a yoes in which you would see those injuries. >> dr. wecht, just briefly, if the prisoner was handcuffed in the van but not restrained with a seat belt or some other device banging around in the van, which seems to be one of the theories, could that have caused this injury? >> yes. good point. he is an inert object not able

to balance himself. bound hands or feet so he can't get any kind of steadiness from the lower part of his body. he can't use his hands to steady himself. there are no handrails. we're not sitting in a theater or passengers on an airplane. so the vehicle is moving. and that gets to another aspect of the case and you folks know about this more than i do. but what i've heard is that the police insist that it was just a ride, a smooth ride they made four or five stops, so on. no way you could get maybe a minor whiplash team of injury hyper flexion, hyper extension, from a stop, but in order to produce fractures from that kind of hurling around obviously that van had to have made some sudden violent stops, had to have made

some shop angular turns. that's the only way that could have been accomplished. >> peter, we heard the term rough ride. sometimes cops specifically go out of the way to not put seatbelts on and let's have some fun. have you seen that in your experience? >> that's not what i saw. certainly not par for the course. tens of thousands of people are arrested every year in baltimore. and it's routine. so -- >> what is routine? >> arrests. and usually the wagon driver has a lot of year sort of coasting until his retirement. if anyone does it it would be that wagon driver. i'm not saying that's the case here. but you put someone in the wagon and that's it. this was so routine, so was picking up other prisoners. something doesn't connect here. >> katty kay. sgr >> dr. wecht, you mentioned the idea if he had been unsecured,

he could have got whiplash or something. how rough would that ride have to have been how fast would the van have to have been going and then suddenly stopped or swerved in order to produce an injury to the spine of this magnitude? >> that vehicle would have had to have had some velocity. the velocity was not generated by mr. gray. that would have been impossible especially in somewhat of a shackled position. now, we were told last night that the medical exam per or something released from his i've indicates that the head struck a bolt. and then that produces the injury. well, if the head came back and i don't understand this bolt, how big it is, where it is or so on, if the bolt was there and the head smashed up against it causing them a violent

hyperflexion of the neck, then you could conceiveably produce fractures in that but, again, you have to have that kind of movement. we're not talking about a whiplash injury we're talk talking about a sprain or a bump. and where are the bruises? and how about the suicide ideation here? i mean where does a guy -- he's not under the influence of lsd, he's not known -- >> doctor can i ask you a question? during the arrest process, is there anything that could have happened during that that would have contributed to a later injury in the van? >> yes. i have strong believes that something happened before. you see him getting into the van, does not look to me like he is mobile. i believe he is actually being braced up on each side by two police officers. he has has some difficulty in

moving and that connotes strongly suggests that there has already been some kind of a vertebral fracture. now, then, in the van with that kind of movement and that kind of lurching of an inert body you can have fractures furthering a a separated, accelerated and extended to the point that they move into that spinal canal and sever the spinal cord. >> all right. dr. wecht, thank you very much. we appreciate it. peter moskos we'd like to have you back to talk about the baltimore police department in more detail at some point. how about that? >> any time. >> okay. joe? how are things up there in new hampshire? >> you know what? we're just sitting here listening, obviously, to the fascinating discussion. that was very illuminating mika. >> i thought it was fascinating, the kind of discussion that needs to be had more of and the people in baltimore waiting for answers need to take a look at

all of this as it comes out. but i think what was interesting is that you do have to go back to how he was handled, when he was arrested on the street then you look at joy reid's reporting as to why he was even arrested in the first place and what they found and why that happened. there are a lot of questions here. >> they found a concealed switchblade. so the question is what was the probable cause if that's the excuse for arresting him. how did they know he had a switchblade on there. of course he ran away as well but what caused the original stop that caused him to run away. that's obviously going to be untangled and we'll keep talking about this much much more straight ahead on "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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still ahead on "morning joe," much more on the mysterious death of freddie gray. another conflicting report about what happened to him inside the police van in baltimore. the other prisoner who was there breaking his silence and sharing a very different story. plus, the white house reaches out to celebrities so they can help call baltimore for calm there, keep the calm there, the powerful message that ray lewis is delivering to students. also ahead, it's being billed as the fight of the century. everything you need to know about the most anticipated boxing fight in years. we go live to vegas. we'll be right back with much more "morning joe."

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>> we've had two very good days of conduct that have taken place in our city. what i have to say for myself and the mayor and also the governor is that we're extremely pleased and happy and applaud the citizens and residents of the city of baltimore in their activities. they're coming out, showing what baltimore is really all about, which is helping each other, standing strong. although we've had two days of peace and quiet, we still have a week end to make it through. i ask for your patience. i asks for your understanding. >> in baltimore, the overnight curfew will remain in effect at

least through the weekend. some residents took to the streets peacefully last night. groups blocked traffic but at time police and protesters seemed to be mingling. two demonstrations are set to be planned for today. >> elsewhere in the city unrelated gun violence spiked with five shootings thursday and around the country more protests calling for justice for freddie gray. and in philadelphia hundreds gathered at city hall. the "filly is baltimore" rally. they proceeded to march through the streets and tie up traffic chanting "black lives matter." it was a peaceful demonstration that led to a confrontation with police who temporarily halted the march proechlt testers and officers pushed each other, at one point people surrounded a police cruiser but the slags deescalated and no arrests have been reported. in cincinnati more than 300 people gathered at the steps of the county courthouse. a smaller group marched to a

police headquarters. no arrest there, either. welcoming to "morning joe." in new york we have mike barnicle donny deutsch, harold ford, jr., former treasury official and "morning joe" economic analyst steve rattner and in baltimore white house correspondent for american urban radio networks april ryan. thanks for being with us. for the second straight day there is a conflicting report about freddie gray's death in police custody. it comes from a local abc station in washington, d.c. and cites anonymous law enforcement sources. those sources claim gray's fatal injuries occurred when he slammed into the back of a police van. that incident allegedly broke gray's neck and he also reportedly suffered a head injury which matches a bolt from the back of the police van. the sources say there is no evidence he suffered injuries while police officers tried to arrest him, but they say it is

still unknown how gray suffered the head injury and what caused him to slam into the back of the police van. the details reportedly come from the results of an internal police probe and preliminary findings from the medical examiner's office. but a spokesman for the medical examiner tells the "new york times" that the investigation is still ongoing and "we don't do preliminary findings." this comes just one day after the "washington post" reported that another prisoner in the van claimed gray was banging against the walls of the police van and trying to hurt himself. now, that man is breaking his silence to wbal's jayne miller and telling a very different story. >> reporter: once you got in the van, what did you hear? >> when i got in the van i didn't hear nothing. it was a smooth ride we went straight to the police station. all i heard was a little banging for full seconds. i just heard little banging, just little -- you know what i mean? boom boom just little banging. just little banging.

>> reporter: allen describe what he told homicide detectives when questioned. did you tell the police you heard him banging his head against the van. >> i told homicide that. i don't work with the police. i do not tell the police nothing. when we got to the police station they said he didn't have no pulse or nothing, they're calling his name. "mr. gray mr. gray" and he wasn't responding. >> reporter: another big development emerged as police submitted their investigation to the state's attorney. officials say the police van made a previously unknown second stop. it was discovered after watching security camera footage from a grocery store. and msnbc has now obtained the charging documents on gray's arrest. they say that he fled unprovoked when he saw officers and that he was detained for allegedly possessing a switchblade. >> mike barnicle call me skeptical. right now the baltimore police department is saying this man severed his own spine by banging his head against a van wall.

nobody is going to believe that in baltimore and i've talked to a lot of doctors who don't believe it either. >> well, joe, the report that was leaked to the "washington post" a couple of nights ago was clearly leaked by someone in the police department, it was clearly a cya -- cover your ass report -- by the leaker. and you're right, i haven't spoken to a single medical person or a police person actually, who can believe that freddie gray severed his own spine in the back of that van. and it could well have been the banging people heard, it could have been the banging that they heard in the back of the van was freddie gray in such pain that he was trying to get someone's attention up front driving the van. >> this is so much speculation. i agree with mike the car could have been -- the van could have been driving erratically, we're now hearing reports it made more than one stop. who knows how the car was being driven. again, i believe, as i did yesterday, we should wait until

the investigation ends. we'll probably hear more and more things like this. i happen to believe, my hunch tells me that the injuries were suffered while this kid was in this van but i'm going to withhold judgment until this investigation concludes. this kind of stuff happens, it's not healthy for the city. >> the bottom line we're going to have to wait as harold pointed out, until the state's attorney gets hold of this investigation and completes the investigation and we get some real facts on paper and on the ground. >> you're exactly right. here's the problem, though. april, i can tell you, there are a lot of people not only in baltimore, there are a lot of people in the white house right now that are concerned about going into this weekend without the full investigation put out there the way that some people had suggested and the only thing the residents of baltimore have going into the weekend is that the police are blaming this man who is now dead for killing himself. severing his own spine, for banging his head against the wall. that's not exactly going to calm

people down in the streets of baltimore. >> well let me say this. i'm proud of those persons who are out in baltimore these last couple of days. they voiced their opinions said what they feel but the level of expectation, joe, has been raised, like you said. and what's going to happen is today when the report was supposed to come out to the public it's not going to come out. people are hearing things leaked from from the police department from all realms of baltimore and we still don't know the total fact or report from the police department yet. we do know this freddie gray is dead. we do know this his neck was severed. how was it severed? we're hearing reports from jayne miller in baltimore at wbal talking about it happened within 14 minutes. we do know something happened in that van. we know that he got into that van. we're seeing video now that he walked into the van on his own. but we do know that there was

also that second stop that unknown second stop that we would haven't found out about unless a supermarket video camera showed something. so there's a lot of variables up here. it seems like a lot of secrecy and what baltimoreans want and what everyone around this country really wants right now are answers. and the white house understands that they have a situation as well as baltimore city has a situation, people want answers and they're trying to bring down all that level of expectation that was anticipated for today. >> that's obviously what the pastor's doing that we had on yesterday. it's what a lot of people are doing, mika. the problem, is obviously he gets into the van at the very end but you see he's wounded. it appears when the police are dragging him, his body is limp. >> and his voice sounds like he's in agony. i think there's a couple of things in terms of the level of expectation. yes, there may not be the answers they need in terms of investigational reports, those take weeks sometimes.

but there has to be an understanding from leadership that they understand why the community is hurting. that they understand that something bad might have happened. that something bad did happen. that they want answers, too. >> more than him just banging his head against the wall. >> that connection needs to be made. nbc news has confirmed that the white house is reaching out to celebrities and athletes with ties to baltimore to help keep the calm there. joining us now from baltimore, msnbc national reporter erer tremain lee. >> reporter: the situation here remains tenuous. people are angry and anxious and the latest leaks from this investigation have seeded that. but you have officials like rep elijah couples who have been on the front lines, a number of community organizations, be the white house is making calls to various stakeholders including celebrities, carmelo anthony and ray lewis who is the ultimate motivator. as a matter of fact, i think we have sound of him speaking to area students.

let's listen to what he had to say. >> we got a real opportunity. you know at this time for me it's about opportunity, that somebody can find without they really are through these trying times. anybody can be cool when thing's all right. but when adversity hits when true adversity hits that's where true character will be found. every young kid in this room right now, we have an opportunity. guess why? because the spotlight is on us. it's on baltimore. it's tragedy in baltimore, we have an opportunity to change baltimore. >> reporter: so when you think about all the pain and disconnection, they're looking for folks who can really kind of tune in to what's happening in this community and to the young people in this community. as we've seen when there's no connection we've seen how bad things can turn out. moo i can? >> thank you very much trymaine. you know watching that clip of ray lewis speaking to those

young people in those auditorium this is much more about freddie gray and baltimore. rehema ellis had a piece where she's talking to a young man, 16 17 years of age. and he says most kids don't have a father. most kids don't know their father. this is a 16-year-old young man from baltimore. that's the existence of too many young people not only in baltimore but all around this country. >> you know obviously this investigation is going to turn up some nasty news and probably will be tied to that stop that was made and you kind of go okay, once we move on past this -- we'll never move on past this. but what's the solution to all this? where does this end? you can go to okay the -- there is no structure in the home in so many of these communities and that -- how do you solve that? at the end of the day, that's not the problem. the problem is cops misbehaving here. and i don't know what the answer is. we all sit here and pontificate,

we all think we're really smart, we're going to do this going to do this. what's the solution? >> it's multifaceted. >> well, it's multifaceted and, of course, the economic situation plays a big role whether the lack of a two-family household is a cause or an effect either way you get there, you have average incomes at the poverty line half of the kids of school age not actually going to school unemployment roughly half the working age, people not working. >> that doesn't change what happened with these cops. it's very'sy to go to that and say the fundamental reason for crime and poverty is some of these cultural things but at the end of the day, that's not what caused this kid's spine to break. >> it's not what caused this kid's spine to break but it causes a culture where you have a lot of people on the streets who are unemployed, maybe carrying switchblades, maybe doing that because they don't have a job and they're not in school, it leads to a confrontation with police rising tensions and then stuff happens that shouldn't happen however it did happen. >> the cops -- >> go ahead. >> i was going to ask you.

would you agree with the contention, my contention that not just freddie gray the freddie grays of this country, that before his spine was broken his spirit was broken because of the existence and the environment he grew up in. >> one of the things you have to look at communities and neighborhoods across the country where you don't have these kind of incidents happen where you have predom theirly minority or african-american or hispanic communities, one of the characteristics, one of the common characteristics is that you have stable households you have people in the household working, you have kids believing, their spirits are high believing their opportunity or opportunities and it's a future for them. we have to figure out -- we won't figure this out in the next week to donny's point. i enjoyed watching ray lewis but i'm not convinced that that's the only message. the key is these kids have to believe they have a future. that something is positive out there waiting for them. that their parents have something positive waiting for them. it won't be solved overnight but that conversation has to begin in earnest. mark morial we tried to start

that conversation in his "daily news" piece, he was here talking about a big, big investment plan in cities all across the country. >> joe, the president earlier this week in his remarks at the news conference with the japanese prime minister he really put his finger on a real truth of this -- what's going on in baltimore and what's happening in the country and too many shadowy places we don't pay attention to. when the president said "this is nothing new, this is not new." and it's not, joe. >> no it's not. and the president said something i brought up yesterday, it's right on the point to what donny was talking about before when he said that you know people not knowing their fathers and all of these other problems didn't lead to his death. no it didn't lead to his death. but that is a symptom of an underlying disease that is much much bigger and as the president said, unfortunately it's police

officers who have to weigh in to these parts of baltimore and other parts of the country that have been just absolutely beaten down and, like you said had the hope beaten out of them. i do want to push back slightly on something donny said saying you know we're not going to be able to answer this right now. i think actually mike you touched on it. one of the big problems and there have been some groups over the past 20, 30 years that have talked about the need for fathers remaining engaged in their sons' and daughters' lives and there's just no doubt that if you don't have a family that is together you don't have a family unit whether they're even living under the same roof. but everybody involved in a young man's life or a young woman's life and then you spread that out across an entire community, that causes a breakdown not only in the family unit, that causes a breakdown in the community, it causes a breakdown in the culture and

this happens. and, look in baltimore -- >> here we go we've got the -- >> -- a lot of residents will tell you this. the outrage. their city is so much deeper than the death and it has to do with long-standing economic barriers, low educational achievement and this broken criminal justice system. and there are so many statistics that are unbelievable. let's roll through this because it makes it harder to break the cycle of poverty. the unemployment rate in the city with more than 600,000 residents now stands at 8.1%. that's a lot higher than the 5.5% rate for the state of maryland that even outperforms the national average. in west baltimore neighborhoods where freddie gray lived, a third of the population lives in poverty. in terms of education, 57% of the residents in that neighborhood have not advanced beyond a high school diploma. only 4.4% have a bachelor's degree. and listen to this -- young people in that area have less of

a chance to attend college ethan be in jail. a third of the residents are in state prison. and, mika i think most staggering of the statistics that came out had to do with life expectancy. guys do you know in baltimore in 15 neighborhoods life expectancy is lower than it is in north korea? and, april, in eight neighborhoods, get this, in eight neighborhoods in baltimore, life expectancy is lower than it is in syria. that should make us think about how deep these problems are 40 miles from the nation's capital. april? >> joe, i want to say this, i guess i live two worlds. i am from baltimore. you have a city -- and i'm going to give you at another. 32% of the children in this city are in poverty and when you say

that, many of them their only meal is in school. and i'm going to talk to you about something else. this is something -- a couple of things. we talk about the breakdown of the family. yes, theres a breakdown of the family, but let's go beyond that. there is a situation with the police department. but let's talk about a place that i'll do with 40 miles from baltimore -- washington, d.c., the seat of power for this nation. when there is money crunch when there's a problem with the budget, what is the first thing that's cut? it's money that's cut to urban areas or the poor. you know we hear about federal subsidies cut when it comes to the children going to school school lunch programs monies for mothers with children single mothers with children. you know we talk about all this breakdown of the family but there's another group that -- there's an onus on another group, washington. so we get all upset when we see that freddie gray situation, when we see trayvon martin when

we see eric garner when we see tamir rice but there is life for these people during this before this and after this. and when i was on pennsylvania and north the other day talking to some of the people they said "it's great for you to come down here and focus now, but what happens after this? we've bullpen dealing with this prior to." and as an african-american person who comes from northeast, northwest baltimore, who lives in the suburbs of baltimore now i see the pain, i felt the pain i have family who's in the pain i have family who lived near the pain. so i find it very interesting how we can put the onus on family when it's a lot of responsibility in a lot of different sectors to include in washington. still ahead on "morning joe," wall street looks to recover from thursday's 200-point plunge. the biggest drop in two weeks. we'll see what's moving the markets today with cnbc's michelle caruso-cabrera. plus, one of the most talked about documentaries, a rare look at the life of kurt cobain 21

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science, technology, arts, and math. so let's give our kids the skills for success. it all starts with education. the more you know. >> bernie sanders. he officially announced his presidential campaign. he's the first democrat to officially challenge hillary clinton. some people are claiming that he's being forced to run just so it will appear hillary has some competition. [ laughter ] bernie denies this. but if you look at his campaign slogans, i'm not sure even he thinks that he can win. take a look at this first one here. it says "bernie 2016 i've always wanted to meet hillary clinton." here's another "bernie 2016 because my name sounds like bert and ernie combined." finally "bernie, 2016 forget the weekend, why not spend the next four years at bernie."

it's 27 past the hour. time now for business before the bell with cnbc chief international correspondent michelle caruso-cabrera. a tough day for the markets on the last day of april trading. is the rally broken? >> that's the question we're asking today. certainly right now when you look at the futures they suggest we'll get a positive open but consider this. we've had five days in a row of declines in the nasdaq. that's happened three times this year. you know how many times it happened last year? zero. the year before? zero. so it's getting tougher for this market to move higher and folks are starting to wonder whether or not it's maybe run out of steam. so, you know we never know we ask this question every single day on cnbc is the market going up or down? right now we're worried about it going down significantly from here. the next thing we're watching is what will happen with interest rates. warren buffett who will be on cnbc for three hours on monday after he holds the big meeting in omaha says he doesn't think

the fed will raise as soon as everybody thinks because the gdp data we talked about yesterday on your show with austan goolsbee and also the fact that european interest rates are so so low they're negative. you know what a negative interest rate? that means you give your money to somebody and you get less of it back at the end of it. think of it that way. it's crazy to have negative interest rates but that's how weird the situation is in europe and he doesn't see how the fed can do that at this point, raise rates in the face of much much lower and competing lower interest rates overseas. >> all right. a great touchstone for the conversation we're about to have here. cnbc's michelle caruso-cabrera. thank you so much. joining us is matthew slaughter, associate dean for business. he's just been named the school's tenth dean and will assume his new role on july first. and our thanks to the tuck school for covering our production costs for this broadcast.

good to see you. congratulations on your new role. >> thank you. >> this guy came back from china last night. >> late last night. congratulations on being the next dean. we won't call you dean-elect we'll just call you dean. >> fair enough. ful. >> ari manuel super agent, just came back from china, i asked him what he thought about it i won't say he was underwhelmed but he brought up some problems that you say you see in china as well before they become this all-encompassing massive superpower that dominates the globe. they have a couple of really tough challenges ahead of them. what are they? >> boy, they do. well, one of them is trying to understand how slow economic growth can still create the jobs that they need and still support the foreign companies that came in so they can't to do good thing there is. one of the biggest concerns of the foreign companies operating there is the intellectual properties and ideas and assets. >> let's face it, the chinese

have a bad record when it comes to stealing intellectual property. >> so american japanese companies are concerned about having their ideas and practices be protected there. so that's a big issue. >> another thing that was overwhelming to ari as a foreigner going to china was the pollution. the quality of the air and i've red one story after another of the best and brightest going over to china and coming back whether it's to london or paris or new york saying i just can't move my family over there because the pollution is so bad. >> so the plane comes into beijing and you're descending and you're descending and you realize it's not just kind of an overcast day, that's the haze of the pollution that's there. so about a week ago it was one of those days where it's difficult to see the ground until just before the plane lands. so for a lot of these global companies, they're very concerned about having their families be there with them when they're working, and for the chinese nationals themselves rising concerns about the environment is a big policy

issue there. the government is grappling to figure out how to deal with it. >> steve rattner has that a question from new york. >> i've had that experience in china with going to the ground and seeing that haze but i'll take the over on china. but i want to go back to the situation in baltimore. you served in president bush's council on economic advisors. if i remember correctly, you co-wrote a piece for foreign affairs some years ago about globalization in which you basically said -- i don't want to oversimplify or misremember -- that globalization will have winners and losers within the u.s. and that it's the responsibility to those of us who are the winner to help those of us who are the losers to a greater extent than what we've been doing so far. >> great memory steve. i did write a piece on that and i think globalization, as amazingly large as the gains are it creates for the united states and worldover over all, it doesn't

benefit every single worker and company and community. so as we're talking about thep tpp in the united states we have to think about having a stronger social safety net so workers in communities who don't benefit have a better leg up tomorrow to do better in the global environment we're in today. >> so let's -- let's talk about the school, the business school itself here. tuck is obviously one of the best in the country. >> that's kind yes. >> and, of course i mean i don't just say that because i'm here and you guys gave me a fleece. [ laughter ] i say it because everybody understands that. we asked the president of dartmouth this question, i ask you coming in. what is the great challenge for institutions of this kind and institutions across america right now at a time many people think it's a time of crisis in higher education in america. >> i think the biggest challenge but at the same time our biggest opportunity is to not be

complacent. i think it's to recognize that when you look at -- in our part of education, of business education, that the world is so dynamic, so diverse, becoming more global that we've got so many opportunities to refine what we do here at tuck and to reach in some new directions so that what we do on campus is connected with all that kind of dynamism we see everyday in the world that we were just talking about. that's the biggest need that we face and yet i'm so excited. many good things we already do here at tuck to do that and many opportunities we have in the future to grow those activities. >> all right, well dean slaughter, this is really a great experience. it was fun talking to the tuck students ss last night. >> fascinated with your requirements starting with the class of 2017. >> i guess every tuck student has to have a global experience. does that mean work abroad or something more? >> something more. it's going to be starting with the class of '17 that arrive this is fall. in addition to the courses they have to take here on campus to earn a tuck degree they will have to take at least one tuck course that we offer somewhere

else in the world. so we have these global insight courses where faculty take teams of students. this past spring they went toe japan, they went to south africa armenia and georgia, they went to israel. some of them are consultancies where they match with countries on three to four-week projects. so they're exciting and it speaks to the stuff you're talking about earlier. >> fantastic, dean thank you very much. >> thanks so much. >> my pleasure. >> great to be here. thank you so much for having us. coming up next tomorrow is actually shaping up to be a dream day for sports fans. you've got the nba and the nhl playoffs the red sox going up against the yankees, go red sox. that's just for starters josh elliott is live in louisville with a preview of the kentucky derby and ron mott joins us for las vegas where they are gearing up for a marquee match in the fight world. a lot of people are calling this fight the fight of the new century. we'll be right back.

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you know most days the yankee and red sox game in addition to the playoffs of the nba and the nhl and the nfl draft, that would be a sports lover's dream weekend. but saturday those are just appetizers to the biggest events. that's because tomorrow is the 141st running of the kentucky derby at churchill downs. my dad always looked forward to the first saturday in may. and then just hours later, all eyes will be on las vegas for what's being billed as the fight of the century. and right now we have coverage of both big events and let's go first to las vegas where nbc's ron mott is on the strip with more. ron, i grew up watching you know, our listing on the radio to ali/fraser ali/foreman,

foreman/norton ali/spinx. you don't hear about that much anymore. tell us about this fight. >> reporter: this is called the fight of the century. after all these years the big fight is on tomorrow night back here behind me at the mgm grand. i'm told officially there won't be a red carpet in place but make no mistake, it's very much show time in every sense of the word. it's a boxing block buster. >> this will be a fight the whole world has been waiting to see. >> reporter: a marquee featuring bona fide bankable headliner, floyd mayweather jr., and manny pacquiao.

stars will be there, brady, kardashian rihanna, bieber pay-per-view at $100 bucks a buy creating a box office knockout shattering records. >> we want everyone to tune in and buy pay-per-view. we love the fans from around the world that have supported this event. >> reporter: in one corner mayweather nicknamed "money." undefeated, brash, quick to show the fruits of his labor. in the other corner pacquiao, a national treasure in his native philippines, a congressman whose birthday is a virtue holiday. quiet and reserved. what are your emotions? >> excited and relaxed, excited for saturday. >> reporter: the payday more than $100 million each. pay-per-view bringing in another $300 million with another $100 million possible from broadcasts sponsorship and merchandise and tickets. some fetching tens of thousands of dollars for floor seats even though both fighters' careers are winding down.

>> this is a tremendous fight. certainly won't save boxing though boxing has gone the wayside because it doesn't have the same flair it had decades ago. >> reporter: mayweather's domestic violence history is generating heat. >> pacquiao. >> may wetter in three. >> reporter: a reminder from the boxing legend mohammed ali tweeted "i am the greatest. requests what do you say to that? >> that was a great tweet. i love ali. >> reporter: now here's something you don't hear about in boxing. floyd mayweather if he wins there's a suggest he'll put up the $10 million bail to spring chicago knight suge knight out of jail. >> a bizarre footnote. thank you so much. greatly appreciate it. let's go to churchill downs in

louisville kentucky, where nbc sport's josh elliott is standing track side. josh, my gosh i mean there are few sports events in the world like the kentucky derby. i mean the whole city shuts down. it is a remarkable remarkable event. let's talk about the horses this year. is there a clear favorite? >> reporter: we should talk about the horses. 20 horses will run tomorrow for this race and boy, joe, i couldn't agree more. the 141st running of this derby. and usually one or two make themselves known as clear favorites entering and however handicappers include manager who work with us at nbc are saying there's a good chance that this will be the deepest field perhaps in the history of this race. think about that 140 years of history. however, there are two potential superhorses in this field and so in many years horses like carpe

diem or materiality would be clear favorites but this year they are two and of the same barn. the trainer is bringing american pharaoh and dortmund and they will probably go off as co-favorites. dortmund is a big horse, he's the son of 2008 kentucky derby winner big brown. again, a giant. he'll be very much the alpha male of this field. american pharaoh, life less is known about him, especially running this distance. it's further than any of the horses will have run. but when this race goes off 24 hours from now, american pharaoh will probably leave the gate as the prohibitive favorite. >> josh, this is barnicle in new york. i just want to tell you one thing, don't sleep on ocho ocho ocho. dortmund is a great horse but ocho ocho -- i wanted to ask you. the crowd is such a great side feature of this classic race and john calipari john calipari at the kentucky derby, is he

greeted like the king that he is in rest of kentucky at churchill downs? >> he is. perhaps if it had gone a little differently against wisconsin than against duke perhaps he would have been greeted better but, no he is. he'll be one of many here. 170,000 people are going to japanese standsjam these stands. it's not unlike having an extraordinarily dressed spring break. when it goes off, the 170,000 plus will push to the rails. you talk to trainers jockeys, they'll tell you very often this race is actually won or lost before the horses even get to the gate because for these three-year-olds, they've never seen anything like it. it will be a lot different than training before the sun comes up on a saturday morning. we'll find out a whole lot about 24 hours from now when they run this derby. >> thank you so much. nbc sport's josh elliott talking about the kentucky derby.

it is always special and this year mika possibly even more special because a lot of experts saying, as josh said one of the deepest fields ever. of course up here in new england and certainly in my home in connecticut the most important sporting event this is weekend, the red sox sweeping the yankees. >> go sox. >> all three games. >> go sox. a big sports weekend. don't get the boxing got to say it is. that okay to say? >> we'll talk about it later. >> oh god. up next it's drawing comparisons to the oscar-winning movie "boyhood." we'll look at the documentary about kurt cobain that's creating plenty of buzz. keep it right here on "morning joe." your dog's definitely got your back. but who's got your back when you need legal help? we do. we're legalzoom, and over the last 10 years, we've helped millions of people protect their families and run their businesses. we have the right people on-hand to answer your questions backed by a trusted network of attorneys. so visit us today for legal help you can count on.

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joining us now, brett morgan, the director of the new documentary "the roots of heck." it explores kurt cobain from the time he was a small child growing up in washington state. take a look. >> he was the first grandchild on both sides. everybody was coming over constantly. can't even describe what a magnet he was. people just came to him. >> why do you think there is so much buzz about this film and

kurt cobain? >> kurt's touched so many lives over the -- >> how? >> through his music. through the experience of his music. kurt was able to articulate an experience that most young people have and do it in his heart probably more effectively than anyone over the last 25 years. i remember standing in front of an audience the other night and i said "look, y'all came here, there's no advertising, we know why we're all here, it's kurt because of the way he's touched us and affected us." and like most people i figured there was nothing left to say or hear about kurt and let's let it go, what else is there? it turned out there was everything because this young man was only in the public eye for three years and when he was in front of the cameras he was really uncomfortable. so we said if we're going to make a movie about kurt let's let him express it let's let him tell a story in the best way he can -- through his art. and the thing about kurt is he was so much more than just a musician. he was an artist with a capital

"a." he never stopped creating. so kurt did the sound design for this film, he did the photographs for this film, he did the super 8 footage for this film. it's an all-emersive journey into kurt's psychy. and you go through life with this kid from the time he's born basically, six months old, all the way through the end of his life and you experience his life the way he did, as he saw. >> it it's hard to believe he died 21 years ago this month and the impact that he had even though he left us at such a young age, it's almost like the james dean type of legacy. he put grunge music on the map. he talked to a part of society that no one had addressed earlier and put seattle's music as well. >> i've gone all over the world with this film and i didn't realize how deeply kurt had penetrated lives everywhere. i no he affected our generation but it's one of these things where it's a rite of passage.

where you turn 13 and your parents don't look the same as they did when you were five and you're feeling alone in the world you have kurt. it's comforting to know someone else shares these thoughts. >> and he had such a troubled personal life as well. his rocky relationship with courtney love and their daughter frances bean who is a grown young woman who has her own issues with her mother. what role did she play? >> frances was my executive producer. when i met frances we're shaking hands and she said "i just met you and i know you more than i know my father." >> wow. >> that's when this whole project changed for me. >> last question when you remember the song "smells like teen spirit" or that album, how do you think that would play to global audiences today given the change we've seen in the music industry. >> well, the thing with nirvana is, they didn't go mainstream, the mainstream came to them. they didn't dress up for the role they just walked off the street and as a result there's a

purity to them and when you listen to the music, they kind of sound to me as relevant today as they did 20 years ago. it's also the way they looked. there's nothing dated about it. so when i was a kid, we listened to jim morrison and the doors. they seem dated. were you into the doors? >> yeah. yeah. >> that was a little bit back in the day. >> i went to jim morrison's grave. >> i'm trying to figure it out, man, it's hard to see, it's hard to visualize. there's a hippy in there somewhere. >> i haddock dr. martens back in the day, too. >> a grunge girl and a hippy. >> the documentary is playing now in select cities and comes to hbo may 4. brett morgen we appreciate it. more "morning joe" after this.

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welcome back to "morning joe." it's time to talk about what we learned today and what all of us learned today is tomorrow is mika's birthday. [ applause ] >> happy birthday! >> we'll just do the end of the song. ♪ happy birthday to you ♪ >> i thought this was for the tuck school of business. ♪ happy birthday to you, ♪ happy birthday dear mika

happy birthday to you ♪ >> look at that it's fantastic. >> beautiful. i love it! >> we learnly learned you guys know how to make a case and also just a fantastic school fantastic experience and mika in addition to know your value, you know that the graduates rank right at the top for -- >> second in compensation, salary and bonuses, tuck school of business. >> let's go to mike barnicle, mike, what did you learn today? >> i learned had i been up there in dartmouth i would have eaten the whole cake this morning before it got out there. and secondly i learned that i should have had the no sign thing for the gift -- the u.p.s. delivery gift to mika's house tomorrow for birthday. but you have to sign for it, mika, when it comes. >> okay steve rattner? >> on a more serious note i learned however unemotionally and dispassionately you think about what happened to freddie

gray it's hard to escape responsibility for the police handling of it. >> no doubt about it and we certainly have learned, mika that we are going into a weekend here, there are a lot of questions that are remaining but law enforcement officers leaders in the white house, urging calm this weekend letting the process play itself out. >> the department of justice is carrying out an investigation as well so we hope for the best and we certainly will continue to cover the story and we'll do so straight ahead on msnbc. >> and thank you so much for having us here. we greatly appreciate it. if it's way too early, it's "morning joe." "the rundown" starts right now as well as msnbc's continuing coverage of the baltimore situation. thanks so much, have a great weekend. good morning, i'm jose diaz-balart on this first of may. breaking news on the bridge gate scandal and a busy d