>> finally, the last word has been delivered on this show by a talented o'donnell. steve o'donnell and jeff martin, thank you both for joining us tonight. we appreciate it. >> thank you. we caught up finally. let's play "hardball." >> good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. and this is the treachery, of course. this is the lie that sold the war. this is the bugle calling charge. this was the mushroom cloud, the warning of armageddon. it's when dick cheney told us the american people that saddam hussein possessed nuclear weapons. that was the claim which for many thinking people tipped the balance. it was the smoking gun that got us into war. >> we know he has been absolutely devoted to trying to acquire nuclear weapons.

and we believe he has in fact reconstituted nuclear weapons. >> and here on "hardball" last night, the top cia official, the man who briefed president bush on a daily basis said what cheney said was not true. >> was that true or not? >> so we were saying -- >> was that true? >> we were saying -- >> can you answer that question? >> no, that's not true. >> they're using your stuff saying you made that case when you didn't. so they're using your credibility to make the case for war dishonestly, as you just admitted. >> look, i'm just telling you. >> you just admitted it. >> i'm just telling you what he said, chris. >> the full presentation of what you said to them? >> on some aspects. >> he has a nuclear weapon. >> i'm telling you what was said. >> chris, i'm telling you what was said. >> do you agree? it's a big deal. to claim they had a weapon when you knew they didn't. so this final piece of the sales pitch is what did it. and to know and now hearing it from you that that wasn't based on fact or any evidence or intel that that was just made up backs the case for why i'm so angry than war. david cornyn, the washington

bureau chief with mother jones and eugene robinson a prize winning columnist. i've been doing this a long time. rarely do you that perry mason moment. >> that was a great interview. >> i'm the top briefer from the cia. i'm right there telling them all we knew and never knew and never said we had a nuclear weapon. yet we went into war with that weapon. >> that's just what i thought perry mason if they could have walked him back. taken it back themselves attend. >> what do you think people like cheney and bush are saying right now, the guy's outed us? >> well, some of them are probably still in denial. and others will start saying ha, we got away with it. >> yeah we got away with it. >> we got away with it. >> and you focused on one remark that cheney made on "meet the press" near the invasion of iraq. they had spent almost a year making remarks, not always about nuclear weapons. sometimes biological weapons. >> don't forget mushroom cloud.

>> lumen tubes, about yellow cake and the supposed link between al qaeda and saddam hussein that again and again were not backed up by the intelligence. some of the intelligence was wrong. but they were not misled by the intelligence. they used the intelligence to mislead the public. >> in other words, this story. let's listen to this while we're on this. some people who watch television, follow the news, believed he had a nuclear weapon. they believed everything because they think why would they be lying? so you can't completely blame them except for too much naivete. but the people who perpetrated are a different crowd. >> at the end of 2002, which is a few months before the invasion, george w. bush had a press conference. he was asked about nuclear weapons in iraq. and he said we don't know if he had one already or not. now every intelligence estimate they had in hand said even the ones that were wrong said it best. they had a program. and maybe within a couple of years might have a nuclear weapon. they were wrong about that.

there was no nuclear weapons program. but there was nothing to suggest that they might have one already. so when people go out there and say bush didn't lie, he just relied on bad intelligence, no. again and again, he and cheney said things that had nothing to do with the intelligence. they made stuff up. >> right. they knew it wasn't. >> it reminds me of will ferrell on "the anchorman." scholars disagree. >> that's the ticket, yeah, nuclear weapon. >> here is the mess we're in right now thanks to that stuff that went on with isis, the headline on the front page of the "new york times" today says it all. iraq's sunni strategy collapses in route. iraqi forces abandoned american equipment when they fled, including dozens of vehicles, and ghost soldiers who pay a portion of their salaries to not show up for duty. it was baghdad's worst military disaster and most damaging setback for strategy to defeat

the extremists in almost a year. new reports that isis has taken over the strategy important city of palmyra in syria. gene, the iraq government such as it exists is losing this war. >> yeah, it's losing this war. >> and we're building a bigger caliphate, a bigger isis. >> it's losing the war. and our plan, right, to train the iraqi army, the one that fled the battlefield the other day to take the fight to isis. but we want a unified pluralistic democratic iraq more than the iraqis want it. and that's the bottom line. >> nation building. >> we're saying they should fight and die for this ideal that we want, but that they don't want to fight an die for. >> when i look at the map of the world since grade school, which is the map with iraq, it's so neat. and jordan, it's so neat. and egypt, everything looks like a real country until you realize in the arab world, that's not the way they look at it. these are european boundaries. >> yeah.

>> in the arab world there is sunni and there is shia and there is kurd, i guess. and that's it. so who is fighting who? the only people that will take on to the sunni is isis crowd are the shia who hate the sunni. but the sunni ran them out. >> it's not just sunni versus shia in anbar province and ramadi, it's the sunnis who live there versus the extreme sunnis of isis, and then you have the shiites who we wanted to keep out first, the shiite militias. >> living in isis-occupied sunni. who would you fight and die for. >> this is the whole question. the sunnis don't believe that the iraqi central government in baghdad really care about them. but they don't want to be ruled by the extremists of the sunni isis. and isis is now spread out over syria and iraq. the border doesn't matter. and in the meantime, the neo cons and the hawks say we should get more deeply involved here in a tripolar ever shifting civil war. >> and they also want us to fight assad in syria. critics of the president's

strategy have flooded the airwaves lately to thump their chests. let's watch. >> the president frankly should withdraw the authorization of use of military force and start over. we don't have a strategy. >> this did not have to happen. this is a result of a failed feckless policy. it's because of this president's refusal to leave a force behind. >> we could have kept the troops in. he could have kept the troops. in and i think we're now paying a price for it. >> president obama, you're at a defining moment in your presidency. if you don't change your strategy regarding isil in iraq and syria, because it's one and the same, then this country is very likely to get attacked in another 9/11 fashion. >> send in troops. destroy their training centers. destroy their recruitment centers. destroy the area where they are looking to plan to attack us here and then get out. and leave a little note behind. you come back, so will we. >> we can't even agree on what to call this place. we call it isis, isil, the

islamic state. i don't think we're going to find common ground here. by the way, this notion, i know you're going get to, that somehow it's all president obama's fault because he failed to leave a corporal's guard behind when we left iraq, nobody believes that a few nonfighting american soldiers were going to stop this country from coming apart. they weren't even combat brigades. >> it was bush in 2008 who negotiated the 2011 departure of troops and got us out. and when 2011 came along, maliki who bush had supported as prime minister of iraq didn't want to cut any deal with obama, anybody else. so obama stayed true to the deal that bush cut. disneyland is no kelling that if you kept 10,000 troops, they would have made any difference to what was happening in the northeast of iraq. >> there would have been a question. what would those troops do. and so it could have gone one of two ways. either they would have had no impact or we would have sent a lot more troops back in to iraq. >> okay. >> to keep isis -- >> for urban warfare against isis. >> exactly. is that where we're going? really? >> let's go back to pottery barn rule. you broke it.

you bought it. we broke that country. >> oh, yeah. >> it was run a certain way. we none liked it for years. we broke it apart and said we have a better idea. we're going to have elections here. so we have elections. the sunnis are outvoted and they go off and form their own place. it's called isis. this is what happened. that's exactly what happened. >> don't forget -- listen, in 1919, the brits made -- >> you broke it, you bought it. >> made some terrible decisions attend of world war i. you can watch it in "lawrence of arabia." 100 years later we have outdone them. >> but the question is, can you take the shards of pottery and put them back together again. >> okay. >> into anything like a country. >> is that a theory that we can rebuild iraq? >> at this point, no. i don't. >> in lyndon johnson had to decide what to do. johnson had to decide are we going to accept the loss of vietnam to the north, south vietnam and north. are we going to accept it and

get the hell out of there or go in there heavy and win the damn war, or go somewhere in the middle. he decided to go somewhere in the middle and muddle through for x many years until we were all exhausted and we came home. what is the best selection? go in all the way, whatever that means, 100,000 troops on the ground. lindsey graham says 100,000 troops. go in and really try to win the battle, or pull the hell out, or something in the middle. and what's his name? mccain, john mccain says a few special forces troops on the ground will make the difference. >> those are the three options. and i've been wrestling with this all day. i think i'm on the pullout side. >> get the hell out. >> to go in heavy, it's going to take 200,000 or more. >> so let the beheadings continue there is a consequence here. >> well, if you're going to stop the beheadings, you can't just stop them in iraq. you've got to go into syria. you've goat to solve the syrian civil war. so what do you do? you make a deal with assad who you say has to go. and together with assad in syria and together with the iranians in iraq, you're going to -- i mean --

>> what do you say? in, out, or somewhere in between. >> you muddle. >> muddle? >> because there are no good options. i think bohm's policy in some ways is the best of several bad choices. >> which is what? please help me. >> which is to have air strikes, to have some troops there. >> didn't work in anbar province. >> it hasn't worked yet. in some places it actually pushed isis back. isis would certainly be further along if the u.s. was not there. >> you know what the american people generally vote against? korea in '52. vietnam in '68. they vote against muddling through. >> i know. sometimes that's the only choice you have. >> okay, thank you. >> putting more in or taking out. >> many people agree with you. and david cornyn, a lot of people would like you because they like you. but they have no idea what muddling through means. coming up, inside the mind of osama bin laden. newly declassified documents gathered from his pakistan compound give us new insights into the world's number one terrorist and what he was thinking.

he was committed apparently to hitting us at home here big-time before he was killed by our navy s.e.a.l.s. plus, what is so bad about ambition in politics? every presidential candidate's got it. but why is hillary clinton being singled out today to explain why she is running? is it because she is a she? and it's the come back of the cockfighter. matt bevin who once championed the rights of cockfighters is trying to become governor of kentucky. after a wild debate last night, see one claw closer. finally, let me finish with something that truly matters. this is "hardball," the place for politics. wish your skin could bounce back as quickly as it used to? introducing neutrogena hydro boost water gel. instantly quenches skin to keep it supple and hydrated day after day.

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senator rand paul of

killed, the intelligence community is now releasing what amounts to a treasure trove of documents taken from the al qaeda leader's abbottabad compound. it's a bit like getting a peek inside king tut's tomb. the files show osama bin laden remained a steadfast believer in the goal of attacking u.s. targets even as newer jihadi targets focused on attacking easier and closer opportunities in their country of origin. in one document osama bin laden wrote by god we shall not stop. god willing except at the doors of white house, and to raise the banner of mono theism on their so-called statue of liberty. also revealed what was on osama bin laden's bookshelf. 39 english language books that focused on everything from the war on terror to u.s. financial institutions even vote stealing in american elections. they included the best enemy

money can buy, "black box voting, ballot tampering in the 21st century", "imperial hubris" and "obama's war." does this tell us anything about bin laden and his organization? i'm joined by the senator from maine who sits on the intelligence committee. what did you make of this wealth of stuff taken from basically what became the tomb of osama bin laden, senator? >> well, i think it's fascinating, although, chris, i can't imagine that one of your books wasn't there. i don't know about you. >> he wasn't a believer in american democracy like i am. anyway. >> how did he miss that? it is fascinating to get that insight. and as you know, this is really the first bunch of this material that is going to be released. and there is going to be more i think as we see the contents of the computers and the hard drives. this is really the kind of the tip of the iceberg, i think. but clearly, one of the things that came through was, a, he wanted to attack us here at home. and b, he was becoming sort of distanced from the other jihadi

group. i mean, one way to think of it is that bin laden was terrorism 1.0. and of course isil, we're now at 2.8 or something. but there were clearly changes in the wind, and i think he felt that you get a sense from some of that correspondents that he felt isolated. and also, he was into conspiracy theories. some of the books and articles that he had were sort of conspiracies. interestingly, one of them was about september 11th itself. >> yeah. let's talk about the financial thing. because everybody is fascinated by the fact he chose the twin towers to attack as his primary target. and of course that has to do with our financial institutions and upsetting our whole grid of economic power in this country in new york. do you think that is why he is studying up on the federal reserve? he is one of these guys trying to figure out how do you create complete and utter chaos in american financial circles? maybe that's what he was thinking. >> well, i think he probably was. remember, there was an earlier attack on the world trade center.

>> yeah. >> that sort of fizzled. and i think clearly that was one of his targets. and, you know, frankly, it's one of the things that keeps me up at night is not so much a bombing like what he was thinking about, but a cyberattack. and here we are 14 years later. he probably never heard of a cyberattack. but right now that's what we have to worry about, particularly with our financial institutions. chris, the next pearl harbor is probably going to be cyber. and we have to get ready for it. >> i'd say you're right, sir. thank you much, senator angus king of maine, who has seen the stuff. i'm joined by terrorist analyst evan kohlmann. evan, tell me what you think. you're an expert on this thing. like the books he was reading, how he still wanted to hit our big targets and blow us apart. i think he was looking at the federal reserve and trying to figure that thing out. >> he has this obsessive need to attack the united states. and i think part of it actually can be explained through some of the other correspondence, which is bin laden seems to have gotten frustrated about the fact that he keeps pushing attacks on the united states, and a lot of

his acolytes and a lot of the different al qaeda affiliates seem more interested in fighting each other, in killing local people, in doing things that only have bare -- kind of bare resemblance to what his larger mission. he seems to constantly be trying to fight with these people to say look, don't establish an islamic state. just kill the americans. don't fight with each other. just kill the americans. the people who are fighting with each other, it's remarkable. during one of the documents, there is a dispute revealed between the afghanistan and the pakistani taliban, a dispute that apparently got so bad that the afghan taliban executed a pakistani taliban member without ever seeking any kind of permission or okay from the pakistani taliban. you see disagreements with bin laden, with a variety of different jihadi groups, both al qaeda factions as well as others, and you have certain people writing to bin laden saying look, you're sitting there. we're telling you things are dramatically wrong with your organization.

we're jihadists, and you're ignoring us. you're not doing anything about it. >> okay. here is a great question. based upon what you're looking there in terms of what bin laden, what sort of stuff he has in his apartment there he seemed to be mainly focused on an almost generational hatred of his parents. that's always what he was against in saudi arabia, against us as his sort of economic superiors. i'm going get those bastards. i'm going to drive those people to chaos and bedlam and hell. where as the other people were talking about creating a caliphate. is he primarily negative in his purposes? where as some of these other people seem to be more into creating some sort of islamic new future? there seem to be different directions. >> honestly, i think bin laden recognized what worked. i think he recognized what missions and campaigns and slogans worked. when you're talking about a global jihadi movement made up of factions that have all their own leaders and personality beefs and mini missions and mini campaigns, the one thing that these folks could all agree on, and more or less without debate

or without quarreling was attacking the united states. and i think bin laden keeps trying to direct people. that's uncontroversial. everybody agrees with that. >> why did he hate us? >> i think that's more complicated. if i think you look at the letters he writes and talks about with his various different family member, this is a very deep seated hatred. obviously he is concerned about everything from the american role in destroying the climate of the muslim world to on down the list. he seems to have this obsessive interest or fascination with the idea that america is responsible for all of the ills of the world, and particularly in the muslim world. and that without removing america, without obliterating the united states and its influence in the middle east, it would not be possible to move forward. there is no point in discussing creating an islamic state as long as there are still u.s. troops in your country of origin. and think that's his message. >> that's where i always thought cheney was wrong again, putting them in the holyland of mecca. one of the more fascinating files that reads like an

application form for an hr department in this pile. they ask for details. these people want to join the jihad, including the amount of schooling, flouncy, and criminal convictions. which sheiks do you listen to or read? any hobbies or pastimes. do you know anyone who travels to western countries? list your previous occupation. do you wish to execute a suicide operation? and what objectives would you like to accomplish on your jihad path? these are all questions he is obviously looking like an executive search firm looking for people to join up and go blow up the united states. >> we've previously seen these applications in al qaeda guest houses or training camps. but the idea that bin laden himself is personally reviewing these applications and looking at the qualifications of these people, apparently looking to groom people for missions outside of afghanistan and pakistan, ie mission here is in the united states, it's very

interesting. and again, it's another reminder that bin laden appears to have been playing a very active role in attempting to organize attacks directed against the united states. he was not merely hiding in a house somewhere. he does not appear to have been kept prisoner. he was actively planning and communicating with his various acolytes all over the place. and these letters are spread over a good period of time. and by the most senior al qaeda members. >> not to join the cy hirsh fan club. but if the pakistani people living in that area of abbottabad didn't think he was osama bin laden, who the hell did they think he was? >> look, it's a good question. on the other hand, i suppose if the pakistani isi comes in and says there is somebody living there, and ignore him, people are going to ignore him. on the other hand, it's pakistan. and this is a compound surrounded by a ten-foot wall, or even higher. it's a compound where no one ever went in or went out. is it possible that someone just didn't notice or never asked the questions? it's possible.

it's certainly possible. >> it reminds me of losing track of the japanese navy before pearl harbor. the fact that we didn't know where they were should have been a big sign that they were coming. >> yeah. >> thank you, evan kohlmann. up next, by the way, nfl commissioner roger goodell speaks out on deflategate and tom brady's suspension. a little brief there and then we go back to politics. this is "hardball," the place for politics. ♪ take me into your darkest hour ♪ ♪ and i'll never desert you ♪ ♪ i'll stand by you ♪ yeaaaah! yeah. so that's our loyalty program. you're automatically enrolled, and the longer you stay, the more rewards you get. great! oh! ♪ i'll stand by you ♪ ♪ won't let nobody hurt you ♪ isn't there a simpler way to explain the loyalty program? yes. standing by you from day one. now, that's progressive.

welcome back to "hardball." it's been two weeks, believe it or not since the wells report concluded tom brady was probably generally aware of the deflated footballs he used against the colts in that afc championship game. while the patriots announced yesterday that they will not appeal their punishment for the incident, brady himself, who did not cooperate with the wells investigation, is fighting to overturn his four-game suspension next year. at the end of this year, rather. nfl commissioner roger goodell is set to hear brady's appeal, and he spoke about it at a press conference today. >> what would you have to hear from tom brady in order to

either reduce or vacate his suspension? >> the key for success to be able to allow any information that tom brady and his representatives have. i look forward to hearing directly from tom on that. is there any new information that he can bring more clarity to or something that wasn't considered in the wells report. >> i'm joined right now by football writer robert klemko. what could he bring into the mind and heart and spirit of roger goodell that he says, you know, how about two games? what is going to change this? >> i think goodell is leaving the door open for tom brady to supply the text messages and e-mails pertinent to the case that were initially requested by wells and not provided by brady's camp. i think that was a very clear nod to that point. again, it's been characterized that brady needs to hand over his cell phone. but really, they just want

printouts of any relevant texts. short of that, i still think there is a precedent for this suspension to get shortened. in the past, players have been punished for not cooperating with investigations, but never to this extent. >> i guess i like it when people stand up for what their beliefs are, like in boston when they went for capital punishment. if they stick to four, he obviously believed in what he did the first time. if he goes to two, he is saying i really didn't belief what i did, but i'll sort of do something. it shows to me a lack of perseverance. let me ask what he might do. here is what i think brady is going to do. i think brady is going to use this as a chance to make himself look better for everybody. he is going do show that he has been autographing footballs for years, autographing piece of paper for years, that he has been giving away souvenirs for years. and the fact that he gave them to the great deflator and the other guy in the locker room is no indication of a quid pro quo. i think he is going to make a shine up to his reputation in the process. >> i think the two biggest

things in the brady suspension, the reason for them is the fact that he didn't cooperate with the investigation, and nobody believes that these two equipment managers acted on their own. >> i know. >> without his urging to deflate footballs. so just the fact that the team suspended these two guys is in part an indictment on brady and his role. >> yeah. where are they going to end up, these two guys, these rosencrantz and guildenstern? are they done? if they're done, how can brady even be partially innocent? your thoughts. >> i think these guys will come back to the patriots in some form or fashion. they've been suspended from handling footballs, being a part of that process. but they haven't been fired yet. i think once this all blows over, they'll get roles with the team. but it's a pretty apt title for those guys, rosencrantz and guildenstern. >> you're working on a football stadium.

what kind of a deal is that? it's like you can't be near your wife again. >> they'll be in charges of cleats or something. >> you know what? the great deflator. he ought to write the book. maybe he'll make a book on it. thank you, robert klemko, my favorite. does your magazine still have the thing where if you get on the cover, you're finished? does that still work that way? >> yeah, it's something like the madden video game curse, but maybe worse. >> oh, god. beware. up next, did you see the front page headline in usa today? challenge for clinton. explain why she is rung. but why is that challenge unique to hillary clinton? let's get to that with a roundtable in a minute. why do the shes have to explain their ambition when the hes don't? you're watching "hardball," the police for politics.

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okay. are you all ready? tell me something i don't know. >> welcome back to "hardball." that's of course hillary clinton just yesterday in iowa, gearing up to take questions from reporters. anyway, the former secretary of state was there to speak to a group of small business owners at a cedar falls bike shop here is more. >> the deck is still stacked for those at the top. people are not getting a fair shake. i'm running for president

because everyday americans and their families need a champion, and i want to be that champion. i want to make the words "middle class" mean something again. >> but running to be a champion for the middle class may not be enough to satisfy some. the bold headline below the fold in usa today, this morning read why is clinton running? the story continued. hillary clinton has sought to score points for style and substance. however, as she looks ahead to the next phase of her presidential bid and tries to continue to avoid the missteps that cost her in 2008, she will be challenged to put forward a clear rationale for her candidacy. does hillary need to state her rationale any more clearly than to say the 18 republicans running to beat her right now? joining the roundtable, i love gender issues so much. howard fineman is global editor of "the huffington post." susan mill began is contributing editor, i've known her forever for usa today and world report. and perry bacon. go ahead, susan, it's your baseball. why does hillary clinton have to say why she is running when donald trump it's intuitive?

>> it's interesting to me you have all these run men and one woman running. and the only reason they have for running is they have this double-decker car of clown candidates and think why not me, if these guys can run. where as hillary clinton who has been state senator, secretary of state, has to come up with a reason why she is running because default presumption is why would a woman want this job? why does a woman receive v this much ambition. all those columns people wrote about well, she is going to be so distracted now that she has a grandchild. she is going to be handed this baby and lose her mind. >> why is hillary clinton running for president? >> because she wants to be the president. the same as the rest running. she wants to be president. >> the best answer, not to defend anybody here politically or personally, but you got to understand, mitch mcconnell, the second day of the election in 2014 said i have an entire caucus of class presidents. every one of the people in the republican side of the aisle in the united states senate was a class president in high school and college.

they've been running since they first thought of going to law school, howard you don't have to ask why a guy is running. they've all been rung. that's what they do. they run for office. >> i agree with what susan says on one level. >> do you agree with me? >> no. on one level it's very unfair. on another level, this is a problem that i think all sort of long-time politicians and incumbents, she is sort of an incumbent in a way. >> right. >> so incumbents -- >> incumbent on the incumbent to have a narrative. >> but what would it be to satisfy the questioners? >> well, they'll never be satisfied, obviously. but it's the dissonance between her love of everyday americans and the way she has been up to her eyeballs in money and influence for all these years that is something she has to figure out how to square the circle of. she can. i'm not quite sure how. >> a lot of that success in raising money through speech make and friends and all has financed her political career.

i mean, that's how you do it. >> i think she has to say that. >> winston churchill, my hero was out there lobbying and doing writing to pay for his career. >> she has to say, that actually. >> i think what people are really asking is what is the clinton campaign about. and i think that has not been clear yet. one thing she has to deal with is president obama has achieved a lot of things she has talked about her entire life, universal health care, things like that. she hasn't said in a great way here are these. she has these four fights. but they're a little vague right now. she hasn't actually said here is the thing i'm going do that no other president has done before. >> but we know. a little bit to the left probably of bill, maybe. a little to his right on foreign policy, maybe. we know roughly where she stands. >> sure. >> better than most people elected president. mike halperin of bloomberg conducted a focus group with iowa democrats and asked them, these are everyday people, about hillary clinton. here is a bit of what they had to say. i hate that phrase. i hate it. >> a lot of fact is made that

oh, she is so ambitious. well, you know what? if you're going to be a politician, if you're going to set yourself up to be elected to any office you have to be ambitious. you have to have one big ego. >> she is a bad mama jama. she is a strong, confident woman. she knows what she is doing. she is not afraid to step up. she is not afraid to take advice, and she is not afraid to say no, i don't want to do it that way. i'm going to do it this way. >> what do you make of that? mama jama. >> i think it's good. i think they're saying that she is ambitious, she is confident. they're confident in her. i think that's good. the people answering the question also were not sure what is her biggest accomplishment. so i think she does need to add on and say here are the things that i've done already. >> obama didn't have a big accomplishment before he got elected. >> exactly. you already know what she is for. >> a lot of people when they asked what accomplishment did she have as secretary of state, i think most people could not look at a secretary of state and point to an accomplishment. frankly, mostly what a secretary of state does is keep something from becoming a massive crisis.

so that in a way wasn't terribly fair question. >> i wish she hadn't left it to john kerry to stand up to that yahoo, though. >> yeah. turkey, me the analogy here historically is to george h.w. bush as a follow-on to reagan. and i remember when george h.w. bush ran the strategic imperative of his campaign -- >> he wasn't a wimp. that was your magazine that tagged him a wimp. >> yes, it was my magazine. and by the way, barbara bush has never forgotten. i think h.w. has. >> it was a follow-on to reagan. and the strategy was hug reagan by the ankles. no daylight, lee atwater his strategist said. with a little kinder, gentler tweet. what is happening here is hillary is effectively, as perry is sort of indicating is for the most part going to be running for a third term of barack obama.

i'm not sure she wants to admit that. >> yeah. >> but i think that's what it's going to be. and to me that means it's going to be quite a negative campaign. h.w. ran a very negative campaign. he tore mike dukakis apart to protect the reagan legacy. i think that's the position that hillary is going to end up in as the protector of the obama legacy. >> give us a reason why you're rung. we know her reason is ambition. so she is going to cook up a couple of phrases. i remember kathleen brown running for governor of california, which is basically the reason she is running, it's the family business. jerry was governor. her father was governor. she said to create a million new jobs. she had to come up with something. we ask people to be phonies. >> there is nothing wrong with that. i don't think she has to come up with a reason for running when she is almost the only candidate in the race on the democratic side. i think she can let the republicans fight it out. i think she is smart to sort of build the steam now of defending the middle class and income inequality. it's hard to do when you just made $25 million in speech. >> how about the clown keep the clown car from parking at 1600 avenue.

how about keeping bernie sanders out of the white house? >> that's what the campaign is going to be is the clown car. that's going to be there. >> you're right. in the end, i've said this before, and i don't know if it's going to be true. i hope not. i hope there is a choice. but i think hillary clinton, the former secretary of state, former united states senator is going to end up running against a meathead. i don't see any chance the republicans have got it figured out yet. they may find a john kasich or somebody they're going to reach back in their bench and say he is the one. this guy we have been hiding is really great. >> i was in iowa. jeb bush seemed like he might do okay. >> non-meathead? >> non-meathead. >> i want a choice myself. anyway, the roundtable is staying with us. up next, that wild race in kentucky and a guy known for supporting cockfighting. speaking of the clown car. this is "hardball." kentucky goes clown car. we're sticking to the place for politics. look at that. i knew instantly that this was...wow! it's crest hd. it's amazing. new crest hd gives you a 6x healthier mouth and 6x whiter teeth in just one week.

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well, we learned late today that the first republican presidential debate might not feature the entire field of candidates. fox news, which is hosting the debate, will require candidates to be in the top ten in an average of the five most recent national polls leading up to the debate. to take part in the debate states. and that means as many as eight candidates could be left out in the cold. that first debate is coming up on august 6th of this summer. we'll be right back after this.

we're back with the roundtable. howard, susan, and perry. and you all heard about the big castrater, of course, the hog castrater. now the cockfighter is back. i love these names. matt bevin challenged mitch mcconnell for his seat in 2014. perry, you all heard about the pig castrater, the hog castrater, now the cock fighter is back. mitch mcconnell is being challenges for his seat. beven stumbled badly in that race after attending a rally. there's such a thing. >> i've never been to a dock fight, i don't condone dock fighting, here's the thing, i'm not going to disparage people for what they do. the founding fathers were all actively involved in this, and always have been. >> washington, the well known cock fighter. on tuesday, came in ahead by just 100 votes in a race to become the gop candidate for governor in the blue grass state, the final outcome won't be known for a few days. ignore everything a politician says before the word but.

afterwards, he says not that i've ever been to one of these things, but they're as american as apple pie, cock fighting. >> here on the farm report of hardball. >> i know you -- perry's from kentucky, i worked there for five years. i was not surprised, because the democratic party is slowly dying on the vine in kentucky. >> you have a democratic governor? >> you have now, but he's a country guy, an old fashioned southern democrat of the kind that could get elected in kentucky. kentucky has been trying. >> they may go -- >> they may go with this guy. mitch mcconnell who is trying to be a little more of a centrist lately is going to swallow hard and go with this guy. he put forward a standard traditional cookie cutter, blow dry mitch mcconnell type of southern republican. in kentucky now, they're going

for the hard stuff. >> somewhere in china, the geniuses are thinking of how they're going to thump us, watching the news from the american politics. they're electing a governor. what kind of crazy people are they? >> this is america, can you always make a comeback. just when you think you're on the floor, you completely screwed up, you -- >> you've seen enough could be fights to know they've turned around in the last round. >> the more you make fun of cock fighting. >> devin came from behind this week. with this ad. >> running for governor is supposed to be about leadership. but they're acting like children, throwing insults and attacking each other. kentucky can do much better. matt beven is running a positive campaign. >> matt beven's closest rival said, it's been the dirtiest campaign in history.

it looked like one, throwing food at each other. it's been a rough campaign. one candidate is accused of sexual battery, of attacking a woman. the other, this was a serious -- >> the cleanest of the bunch was matt beven. >> he only won 33 or 34%. it wasn't exactly a surge. and he stayed out of it. he cleverly -- wisely stayed out of the food fight of the two. >> a poll taken before tuesday's vote. beven got 36% going head to head with jack conway. the race is close, but conway is a mainstream democrat. >> howard's right, the big point here is the deep south has become very republican. >> this isn't the deep south, it's kentucky. >> i know. scheerer's done a great job, he's very popular among republicans and democrats in

kentucky. he's a democrat from the rural area. conway is a city republican. remember rand paul blew him out in 2010. >> where was kentucky in the civil war? >> it stayed in the union, but it -- it stayed in the union and there was heavy battling and a lot of con federates. to get elected as a democrat, it's hard to be from the city. it's hard to be a graduate from duke university. bill clinton carried the partieses a couple times. the appalachian areas, west virginia, those kind of places were democrat. not when we were growing up, recently. >> you know what they're going to use a lot, barack obama. >> i wonder why. >> you wonder why. >> howard fineman, thank you. great roundtable tonight. we talked about everything from cock fightinged to serious stuff. when we return, let's talk about something that truly matters.

let me finish tonight with something that truly matters, daniel patrick monahan once noted we are entitled to our own opinions but not our own facts. the fact that came forth here last night was pure, clear and stunning. the leaders of our country led by dick cheney led this country, bugeled it into a war on a claim

we know now to have been con infected by mr. cheney himself. saddam hussein possessed nuclear weapons. he convinced the skeptics that we had no choice but to invade concur and occupy a country that had no nuclear weapons or a role in 9/11. how do we know this? the deputy director of the cia never once said that it possessed nuclear weapons. never once. he made that clear here last night. the next time someone says that we made a mistake going into iraq. please correct that person, say yes, yes, some of us made a mistake believing dick cheney, and the rest, and some of us believed him when the president said saddam hussein had nuclear weapons. i guess we weren't smart enough to believe he would make something up like that to go into a war. the next time he says going into a war was based on bad intelligence. i don't believe a word you say. you took us into a war that

never existed. go away and stop doing damage to a country i love. that's hardball for now. tonight on "all in." >> that's what the president did when he left iraq, i think it was wrong. >> jeb bush attempts a pivot on iraq, a day after the cia official misled america into war. >> i'm telling you what -- >> he admitted it. >> former ambassador joe wilson and senator chris murphy are here with reaction. plus. democratic candy date bernie sanders on the rand paul filibuster. the secretary of energy on today's climate change address from the president. and we now know where osama bin laden was on global warming. all in starts right now.