at large, it's the fans it's the organizations. >> today we're covering a massive scandal for fifa and the soccer world. accusations of widespread corruption racketeering and money laundering dating back to the early 90s. i'm ari melbourne. as we come on the air today we can tell you four individuals and two corporate defendants have already pled guilty in this case. in all 14 people indicted including nine current and former fifa officials. at least six of them were picked up as they gathered at an exclusive swiss hotel this morning. they were meeting in preparation for friday's elections for the next fifa president. now they face extradition to the u.s. >> let me say that the general secretary and the president are not involved in this procedure. it is once again unfortunately fifa suffering under the circumstances. it is certainly a difficult moment for us. >> other targets include sports marketing executives and a banker who allegedly handled the money. it's all laid out in a massive 47-count indictment spanning 24

years of conduct and concerns of a reported $150 million in alleged bribes and kickbacks. >> these individuals, through these organizations, engaged in bribery to decide who would televise games where the games would be held and who would run the organization overseeing organized soccer worldwide. one of the most popular sports around the globe. in many instances the defendants and their coconspirators planned aspects of this long-running scam during meetings held here in the united. they used the banking and wire facilities of the u.s. to distribute their bribe payments and they planned to profit from their scheme in large part through promotional efforts directed at the growing u.s. market for soccer. >> that was in new york today. meantime, the swiss launching an investigation of their own separate from that d.o.j. indictment. it focuses on how the 2018 world cup in russia and the 2022 world cup in qatar were allocated.

allegations of big bribes there as well. luke, what have you learned and what do you make of this really massive indictment? >> reporter: it's stunning ari. this is something that has been talked about by soccer officianados for a long time. that fifa is a very corrupt organization. nothing to the degree that the d.o.j. dropped on them today. as you mentioned, the alleged crime of over $150 million in bribes that went to officials. essentially what we saw a system of pay for play. not only for awarding big things like the world cup but other contracts surrounding the games, marketing deals surrounding the games. if you wanted to have your foot in the door with fifa you were going to have to pay off officials to have that opportunity. the other thing i found fascinating about this, ari, we spoke about this earlier, this wasn't a few bad apples within the organization. it seems to be a real lack of institutional control. the d.o.j. investigation is into numerous individuals. we should say this that it is still ongoing. what we've heard from d.o.j.

this could be just the beginning. we should mention that the president of fifa sepp blatter, has not been directly implicated yet. it's expected he'll rewin president of fifa this week. certainly if you're him or officials close to him you have to be thinking this is not a great development for your organization. lastly we should say, ari, the reason why this is so significant and fifa has been able to obtain so much power is they are really the most i should say prominent marketing arm in the world. i mean what other organization has their tentacles in so many different continents and cultures surrounded by a the game the most popular in the world. that's why the money we're talking about is so big this. could be the beginning of beginning of something that is quite large not only in fifa but also in these big organized sports. there's been a lot of allegations against the ioc, olympic committee. and leagues within the united states. if you're one of those leagues in in the united states you might be thinking we got to get

our books in order. >> luke russert, thank you for that reporting. here with us now in new york matthew garhan. let's pick up on the point luke makes. reading parts of the indictment today i was struck by the fact this isn't allegations of a few people on the side doing bad things. it reads like this was a part and parcel of how this organization functioned over the long term, and that anywhere that money was coming in people were systematically skimming taking or demanding bribes for that revenue. >> yeah. they effectively called it a criminal enterprise compared it to the mafia. this is a large, still fairly amateurish organization which was set up to run soccer when it was an amateur game before huge amounts of money came pouring into it. over the years the amounts of money coming into football -- into soccer -- have risen pretty dramatically. >> matthew, you can call it football. >> it is a game after all that you play with your feet.

>> very good point. >> it's the real football. >> you've got to give me that one. but it's run on this as an organization, these huge structural flaws within fee fastifa. tiny little countries and principal tis that have a vote to elect a president the same like china will have. completely unrepresentative. it gives massive influence to the administrators who work at the local level who run -- who represent fifa in those countries. >> that's ripe for corruption. >> this organization as you're saying is not known to be squeaky clean. but there was the sense that they were untouchable. they thought they were untouchable. you think about this morning being arrested in this fancy swiss hotel as someone who's been following this for a number of years now, how big is this day? that this has happened? that loretta lynch came down like she did today? >> kudos to loretta lynch. i'd given up that anything was going to happen on this front. year after year every time there's a new fifa presidential

election, sepp blatter would ride in unopposed or be a half-hearted attempt to displace him. and things would happen behind the scenes. and miraculously despite the kind of stench of corruption he wound win re-election. ironically he's probably going to win again this time on friday. but something has to happen now. because the extent of the charges that we've read today, the depth of the corruption and of the racketeering that's been outlined by the department of justice is such that companies like coca-cola and adidas and budweiser and sony who have all been sponsoring fifa and plowing money into its coffers for years really now have a moral obligation to take a look. >> and the way it comes through in the indictment they did squeeze some people and have sealed guilty indictments. now there's a lot more people they can squeeze. >> indeed. there's some really curious things they've done in the past as well. >> yeah. one thing that ari mentioned as well is a separate investigation

by the swiss looking at the way that the qatar and russian world cup games were allocated. >> right. >> and qatar has faced allegations also about human rights violations with regard to the migrant workers who are trying to build the stadiums. hbo's real sports did an in depth episode on this. let's take a look at a little bit of that. >> by the time all these stadiums are built, there'll be over 4,000 dead. it's disgusting for them to even justify this. they're dying because of these work conditions. because of the heat. because there is no safety measures applied. some of them hydration. it is anything but normal. >> so they're estimating 4,000 deaths from -- >> nepalese workers primarily. >> is anyone looking into this issue? >> this indictment doesn't cover that. i think the indictment covers what it can cover, the money that's come through the u.s. financial system. i think a positive benefit of the indictment will be that

there may be a rerun of the world cup vote. the swiss authorities are investigating the awarding of the world cup to russia and qatar. qatar i think as john oliver said on his show other than the service of the sun it's hard to find anywhere less suitable. 100-degree temperatures. people are going to be passing out. >> fifa is incredibly important in terms of running what is the world's most popular sport, as you call it football. how do we -- how does fifa change? right now its image, its credibility is in complete tat terse tatters. how does it reform? >> luke mentioned the ioc. they've done a pretty good job of reforming itself. you might remember the bribery scandal with salt lake city going back 15 years or so. a complete overhaul of its internal structures accountability, more transparency. i think sponsors have to put

real pressure. i think sepp blatter's position is completely untenable even though he's going to win re-election. how can he oversee an organization in which half its members are being indicted on criminal charges for bribery and corruption. >> so much more there as crystal was rightly pointing out, humanitarian issues. loretta lynch has pushed the u.s. to its sort of maximum power to grab people who aren't american. most of these crimes happened overseas. they can't do more but hopefully others will internationally when you look at the problems. matthew garin, thanks for joining us. more a check on the storm that ravaged parts of the south and parts of the area. not out of the woods yet. we'll go thrive houston yet. a big week in politics. tonight one more republican entering the frey and another saying he'll take a backseat at one of the country's key swing states. we'll tell you ympblgts and the college student who went viral with her question for jeb bush on isis. she has a new question this one's for hillary clinton. and crystal ball has the scoop on that as "the cycle" rolls on this wednesday, may 27th. oblems the way same. always start at the starting.

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warnings in central florida today as dangerous rip currents threaten swimmers. more than 500 have been rescued so far. two people have died. and the death toll continues to grow in the deep south. 21 people have been killed in texas and oklahoma and another 13 are missing. near dallas emergency officials have been watching a dam and nearby highway. right at its cross hairs. for now it's been declared stable. meantime there have been at least four new tornadoes spotted this afternoon in texas but still no injuries reported as

yet. hard-hit houston is finally drying out. nbc's charles hadlock is there in houston for us. charles, there's still a lot of work to be done in houston. >> reporter: a lot of work to be done cleaning up more than 4,000 structures that were inundated by some of the water that fell on monday night and tuesday morning. but take a look at this. we even got an inch of rain this morning. but the bayous are all declining. they are receding right now. this is the lowest we've seen it since we've been here. it looks like it's going to keep going that way as long as the skies remain blue as they are right now. this is one of six small rivers that run through houston. they define the area of houston. and houston has grown up around them. this is the major one, buffalo bayous. it goes right past downtown houston and into the ship channel and then into the gulf of mexico. the water is draining away from houston, but the pain remains. the death toll is now at seven.

the seventh body was found today near the medical center in a stream. it was one of the victims of the hpd and hfd rescue boat. there was a rescue on tuesday morning. the boat overturned putting everybody into the water. they were all rescued but two. and today one of the victims was found. they're still looking for the 87-year-old man who is missing. >> tough story there, charles hadlock, thanks for that reporting. turning gears now, in just a couple of hours, rick santorum 57-year-old father of eight who was once a pennsylvania senator, will walk into a factory just ten miles away from the home where he grew up and announce that he is once again running for the presidency of these united states. joining the list that includes marco rubio. >> rand paul. >> ted cruz. >> mike huckabee. >> ben sar son. >> jeb bush? >> and carly fiorina to have their lives taped to find out

what happens when people stop being polite and start -- >> wait. that's another show. >> okay. so in 2012 santorum was a star. he won iowa even though it wasn't clear that night he's won. he finished second overall. now the "washington post" says there's a chance santorum won't even make the cut to be on the first primary debate stage in august. ouch. why? for the answer and to that and anything in politics we need only turn to john sten washington bureau chief at the buzz feed news and old friend of the show. love you, john. glad you're back. santorum was of course number two on the gop side in 2012 the gop is the next man up kind of party. generally whoever finishes number two is the nominee in the next election. and first read today says no one better represents the fastest-growing part of the republican party, working class white males. and yet, santorum seems d.o.a. in this race. why? >> well, i think there's two things. one is normally the guy that's

sort of runner-up in the republican party primary system is a mainstream candidate, is someone that the establishment is behind. and oftentimes they've been a person that remains very much in the public eye as a member of congress or in the senate or a governor or something like that. santorum really basically fell off the public map following the primary in 2012. then i think the other thing that's going against him is i think the guy that really does represent the sort of working class, white males of the midwest and the south right now, certainly in their eyes is actually probably ben carson. i was just in greenville, south carolina this weekend. when you talk to republicans down there, they all really really like him. and in a lot of ways he has replaced senator santorum as the sort of christian conservative that sort of the working class former for reagan democrats get behind. >> how about mike huckabee? >> mike huckabee is mike huckabee. he has his own little niche and

that's about it. santorum sort of had this thing where he was the reagan democrats' guy. ben carson has really taken up that spot now. >> very interesting. governor scott walker someone who is not officially announced, john, but he's already sort of giving us a sense of a strategy that he might take which would include not potentially playing in the key state of florida. here's what he told radio host laura ingram yesterday. >> i don't think there's a state out there where we couldn't play in, other than maybe florida, where jeb bush and marco rubio are at least in some of the polls essentially tied. they're going to eat up a good amount of that financial advantage that governor bush is going to have. >> so two things here. if you're not going to compete in a primary state, is this the right way to go about it to say this early on? i might just not even do it at all. my dad tried that out last go around in iowa. i think that's something that he probably regrets. and two, can you actually become the nominee if you don't play in florida? isn't florida arguably the most important start? >> it's definitely one of the

most important early on. it is an odd strategy although this is a different kind of a campaign right now. assuming that the marco rubio and jeb bush are both in the election, at the time of that primary, let's say you throw in chris christie, and maybe a few other sort of northeastern republicans that could eat up some of the republican vote down there, it does make a certain amount of sense at least on paper. i think saying you're not going to compete at all right now could be not a good decision. you can sort of say we're going to compete and not really ever be super active there. john mccain did that kind of thing in iowa. he was there a little bit but clearly never going to win that. he had this sort of like these kind of decisions you can make without actually bluntly telling a entire state with a lot of votes, no we're not coming. >> walker being a little bit too honest there perhaps. john, i wanted to switch sides of the aisle to the democrats. you remember ivy zedrich, a college student who asked jeb bush that tough question about

whether or not his brother helped to cause isis? i had a chance to speak with ivy on my web show "crystal clear" earlier and asked her what she would ask hillary clinton. let's take a listen to what she had to say. >> i don't know if i can think of a single question that i would ask her. i would probably first and foremost ask why she's not engaging more with the public right now. i think it's sad that there have been headlines saying hillary clinton takes a question when that should be a much more common appearance. so i would -- i think there should be a lot of questions asked of her. but in order for those to start coming she needs to start engaging more. >> keep in mind ivy self-identifies as a democrat. college student, very well-informed young lady following politics very closely. she feels like hillary clinton not only is not taking questions from the media but isn't taking enough questions from the public and isn't making herself accessible enough. is that a damaging criticism of hillary? is that a damaging blow to her reputation as things develop?

>> i think damaging may be a strong word for it. but it is a problem that she has. and i think it's been a bit of a problem she's had for a very very long time in her career. she is very much isolated from the public and from the media. and while a lot of democrats and a lot of people in her world like to make this very much a well, it's just the sort of the campaign reporters fighting with hillary and saying that she's not talking to them specifically, but she's going out and talking to the public the public kind of sees through that and realizes that the events that she's talking to people at, they're very scripted. the people have been screened. she's not having sort of random interactions with normal everyday people on the street, that she is not controlling, that are then in the media. frankly as sort of the eyes and ears of the public that is the role that we play is to talk to her, talk about her and get her to answer questions that the public wants to hear. and again, this goes back to something that has dogged her since 2000 frankly, that she keeps a distance from the public and from the rest of the country in a certain way.

that does concern people. >> yeah. and this seems to be one of those times where the sort of ideal thing for democracy that would be good it's good to have candidates be accountable to the public and the press when the press is responsible agent of the public and also good for her politically because it's like, when are you going to practice and get good at this? i mean if jeb bush just had a big stumble because meghan kelly is a good interviewer who asked him a straightforward question that made him look really bad on iraq because he couldn't answer it, at least he's getting that practice. would you say that she's had much of that practice recently? or is she just going to try it out if she wins the nomination in the general election where there's less margin for error? >> no, i would agree with that, actually. i think she has not had a lot of experience with it right now. she needs to get back into practice of dealing with everyday people and with the everyday rig gorigors of a press corps that's going to look harshly at everything she says.

where she's not really involved in a difficult primary for all the sort of interest that bernie sanders has gotten recently it's pretty unlikely he's going to oust her as the nominee. >> easy john. >> for the party. >> easy on bernie, john. >> i'm getting far out on a limb there. but this is her time when she can sort of do this stuff, get comfortable with people get comfortable with the press, answer some of these questions in a way where she's not immediately going to get attacked. they can sit with the public for awhile and not seem like that big of a deal. may make more answers later on in the campaign in the general. it seems like the time you'd want to be out there doing it. >> you would think. john sten, good to see you. thanks for being here. up next we're answering the biggest policy question vexing the world right now, how to defeat isis. yeah, you heard that right.

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that the president and his critics haven't within able to achieve. answering the question, how can we defeat isis? i am making no promises that we are going to actually find the answer. but why not give it a shot right, guys? if anybody can help us it is former white house middle east adviser, ambassador to morocco. in the hot seat an open letter to president obama on how to defy the isis. are you ready for this? >> oh, yeah, crystal, fire away. we have a different option here. as you know the iraqi army has launched an offensive to try to take back ramadi. so option number one is that iraqis actually take a bit more responsibility. they take control on the ground and they lead things from there. how does that play out? >> i wish that could happen, crystal. all of us would like to seat iraqi army be able to reconstitute itself and stand and defend what is essentially the iraqi sovereign nation. but it ain't happening. the problem right now is that prime minister and his

government in baghdad have failed to provide enough military equipment to the sunni tribal leaders that were prepared to fight isis. moreover the iraqi military as ash carter our secretary of defense said a few days ago, has not been prepared to fight on behalf of the iraqi government. and when you have that very bad combination, the president's hope that iraq will stand up and defend its own territory, is a fleeting proposition. >> all right. so hypothetical number two these are not necessarily our ideas but just other ideas for how to deal with isis. the americans going all in. surge 2.0. john wayne, rambo, roll in there 150 thousand men and women and take that out. what do you think about that idea? >> from a military point of view tory it's sort of the blitzkrieg approach. isis really only deploys approximately two divisions.

that's about 35,000 men. and they're spread thin. the question is after you have accomplished the military objective, how do you politically achieve the desired goal of ridding the theological foundation on which isis was able to gain a foothold in both syria as well as in iraq? the problem with the blitzkrieg approach is that it military may win the battle but you haven't won the war. >> and if they say governing is choosing the least bad option the third one we wanted to put here on our diplomatic menu for you is middle east allies taking control of this fight on the ground. i guess this is respectfully ambassador, the fantasy option. because if we could rely on allies there to clean this all up we would be doing that, right? >> no not necessarily. because let's be clear here. it may be fantasy football but i don't believe it the administration has essentially done enough to leverage our

capacity to influence sunni arab states and our allies in nato to essentially form an expeditionary force to accomplish the goal that needs to be accomplished. and that is defeating isis on the battlefield. i don't believe our coalition has really done enough in the way of diplomacy and military strategy. look, we just had a -- the president just convened a gulf cooperation meeting at camp david largely focused on iran. the gulf states want a defensive shield from the united states to protect them against enemies, particularly iran and isis. why isn't the united states saying fine? you want that you're going to have to be the tip of the spear. we'll back you up. but you have to do what we did in kuwait. we formed an expeditionary force of american european and arab armies in order to kick saddam out of kuwait. i don't buy the proposition that's not possible.

because remember here it is the sunni arab states that have more to lose than the united states if isis gains more territory. >> i'm going to throw this one out there, then for people that say, look we have put forward so many of our own resources with little to show for it ambassador why not just pull out all together? why not just say we are done here? you know what let's leave it to the iranians see how are going handle things? how would that play out? >> it's very tempting. frankly i'm all in favor of what i call a containment strategy and let the arabs essentially believe we're not going to die to the last american to save their countries. that's not fair to the american people or fair to our military. i happen to think that if we in effect not provide the support that is the air cover as well as the training support, well look. that's where we are right now. we more or less have been in with half a foot in half an inch deep water in the pool. pulling out isn't really going to solve the problem. and frankly, we haven't really

been that far in in order to solve the problem at all. >> interesting stuff. lots to think about there, ambassador mark ginsberg thanks for your clarifying thoughts today. up next as millions of students make their decision about which college to attend a scathing new report may have you rethinking which schools are actually affordable and which are out of reach. we were below the 88th southern parallel. we had traveled for over 850 miles. my men driven nearly mad from

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so if you have a heart start optimizing your nutrition with my nutrition. planters. nutrition starts with nut. it is graduation season. and something on a lot of people's minds is higher education. a blistering new report from the center on budget and policy priorities details how cuts to higher education are making so-called affordable colleges tough for come by. the report found 47 states are spending less per student now than even before the recession. because of that public universities that many families rely on are now forced to increase costs.

and average tuition at public schools is up by nearly a third since the recession. the biggest increase is in arizona where tuition is up a staggering 80%. as states look to reverse the trend, this new report is a warning to elected officials they are not doing enough. michael mitchell is co-author of the report. michael, you look at some of the states that rank among the worst in higher education cuts like louisiana, kentucky even florida. many have governors or senators hoping to be the next president. so how can they talk about the importance of education with this hanging over their head? >> well in many of those states as you just mentioned it's really a question of priorities right? in louisiana we've seen significant cuts to higher education funding. second largest cuts to per student funding, in fact second only behind arizona. and in wisconsin, while the cuts have been slightly more moderate in that state and the tuition increases as well relatively moderate, right now they're having a conversation about cutting about $300 million over

the next two-year budget cycle. so again, for both of those states and for many others it's really a question about prioritizing affordable high-quality higher education versus other things in their states. >> yeah. and your report points out that in 2008 with of course the financial meltdown there was a lot of cutting. but a lot of states are still 20% down give or take for education, even as the sort of pre-recession revenues have returned. so give up the politics on that. has the recession become an excuse to hit education? or this is just cuts that are automatic and they haven't gotten around to changing them? >> well first and foremost you cannot understate how dramatic the 2008 recession was for state economies. states saw a dramatic declines in revenues and the resources that they had on hand to invest in important priorities across the board. so that's k-12 education, that's in other areas of the budget

that's also in higher education. now the question was for a lot of states how were they going to address that issue? and unfortunately, states relied heavily on cutting their spending and cutting their budgets instead of looking for additional revenues or for inspecting costly tax breaks that disproportionately went to wealthy corporations and to wealthy individuals in their states. now again as you said as revenues start to come back to pre-recession levels the question is, are states going to prioritize putting dollars back into higher education, or are they going to continue to put dollars into tax cuts or continue on with smaller budgets and smaller investments and in very important things. >> michael, what is it that is actually driving skyrocketing tuition costs? is it funding cuts that you're pointing to? because some people also point to rising administrative costs, in particular rising overhead with regard to more sort of administrative staffers and their salaries.

>> the number one culprit for rising costs, especially at public two and four-year colleges, that's community colleges and your kind of your state public four years is cuts to state funding. there's been a lot of talk as you said to rising administrative costs. that's been largely overstated. if we're going to address rising costs and additional debt that students are taking on the first place we need to look is at state investments in higher education. >> so michael, let's play this out to the nth degree. what happens if the availability of college people being able to afford going to college, declines significantly? we see a large number of folks who just aren't able to afford going to college. what happens to this country? >> well unfortunately we're starting to see that right now, right? as i've said as tuition costs go up a lot of students especially low income students students of color, they make this decision to say look

higher education costs too much and it's just not worth it to go. and this has implications not only for those individual students, but that bubbles up to local communities, that bubbles up to local state economies, and that can put a real cap on future economic growth. there's been a lot of research looking ahead to say, well we're going to need about two-thirds of our future workforce to be educated at least to the two-year associate's degree level. we're currently not on track to make that goal. and so really again, it comes back to making sure that we're amply investing in affordable and accessible higher education or we're going to put a cap on the economic growth of this country and for various states. >> so michael, bernie sanders announced his presidential campaign officially last night. he's made college affordability a central part of his campaign. it's certainly a central part of a lot of the campaigns for 2016. for those who want to be president, looking at this report, what are the learnings

and the lessons they could take at the federal level? >> sure. so again, in our report we focus largely on state funding. because a lot of the game especially for two and four-year colleges is about state funding and state priorities. but we also note that the federal government especially in terms of the pell grant, played a huge role in making sure that for low income students they didn't completely fall off the map. if you looked at over the past few years, the pell grant, well obviously one because incomes were falling so more people became eligible for the pell grant. but also too, we made policy decisions to make it more accessible to students and their families. and that helped a lot of students be able to afford the rising costs of tuition and fees. now, at the same time we saw states cut back on some of their own financial aid. and so really we saw the federal government stepping up when at the same time a lot of state policymakers kind of pushed away from that responsibility. >> yeah. the key here is make it a

priority. sadly sometimes it takes a report like this to be a real wake-up call for politicians. michael mitchell thank you so much for being with us. >> thank you for having me. up next bitcoin is going mainstream. didn't you hear? maybe that's how people can afford college. that's next. and questions the same asking. but that only resulted in improvements small. so we've got some ideas new. garbage can create energy. light can talk. countries can run on jet engine technology. when you look at problems in ways different you new solutions find. ♪ ♪ ♪ if you're looking for a car that drives you... ...and takes the wheel right from your very hands... ...this isn't that car. the first and only car with direct adaptive steering.

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currency valued at almost 238 u.s. dollars per bitcoin. the decision by the new york stock exchange to add that index is a powerful endorsement of this new digital currency. it's used in gaming and to buy goods, it's also become a key tool for digital criminals involved in online drug deals and murder for hire plots. bitcoin may be here to stay. the majority of americans still don't know what it is. should be listening to our next guest. we're very happy to have "new york times" reporter nathaniel popper, author of the new book "digital gold the bitcoin and the inside story of the misfits and millionaryies trying to reinvent money." if i didn't know better you're gunning for a screenplay there. >> when we talk about this being listed, right? that seems to be the main lining of bitcoin. that's important, obviously. but what else does it take for this digital currency to really

be legitimate, to be on par with what we take for granted, which is currencies that are from governments? >> well, i think first of all it's going to be a long time before that happens. but what bitcoin needs is what any money in the world needs, and that is confidence of the people using it. the willingness of people to accept it. and that's been one of the great things about this bitcoin experiment is that it's sort of been this reminder that all money is in some ways now digital money. it just exists on ledgers on a computer. and the question of whether it is successful is a question of whether people have any confidence in it. >> indeed you're getting at the core point which you talk about at the beginning of the book money requires faith. people believe that this dollar or this coin will be able to be spent for something they want in the future so they have to pay. how is it the folks behind bitcoin have tried to inject that sort of faith in the bitcoin and why is it that they've largely failed? >> i think coming out of the

financial crisis there was this desire for alternatives to the existing financial system to the banks, to the governments. and i think the answer to a lot of these questions -- not just with bitcoin -- has been this sort of technoeutopianism, that cold can save us. code is this pure thing. bitcoin is built on advanced math and cryptography. some have seen that as a more promising way to go than a central bank that can print unlimited amounts of money. as you say or you're hinting, it has to win over a whole lot of people for it to be successful. so the price has gone up and it's gone down and gone up and gone down. really what that is is a debate about what is bitcoin and what is the potential here. >> exactly, if i can't hold it it's hard for me to understand and believe in it as money. >> it's really difficult. i'm still trying to wrap my head around it. the reason we're talking about

it is because of this mysterious guy, satoshi yakamoto. >> abby i don't mean to interrupt the segment but you mispronounced that name. >> we had an argument in the office that i was bad at pronouncing names. >> i thought we had bin laden again. >> good job. last one we heard from him was spring of 2011 when he then said he'd moved on to other things. is that even his name? >> well sitoshi yakamoto is the person at the paper who announced bitcoin and the software. the guy we're seeing on the screen there is one of the people who's been put forward as a likely candidate for sitoshi yakamo. most agree that guy is probably not the person who created bitcoin. but one of the things that's again going back to your

question is that this was created by somebody who put it out in the world. but it was open source software that is run not by one central institution, not by one person but by all of its users. in that sense it's like that sense, it's like the internet. >> how can we believe in that? that it's run by everybody. we don't actually know who founded it. >> why not just introduce yourself to the world? i don't understand that. >> well, i think those are two separate questions. i think the question of how can we believe in saying it's run by a distributed network of people is like asking how can we believe in an information network, aka the internet that is run by distributed network of servers around the computer around the world. and that's the idea behind the internet. it took a long time for people to find a way to harness it in a useful way. and i think bitcoin is still very much at the beginning of that process. but i think the sort of bigger idea here that people are drawn to is this decentralization. it's part of what i call in the book a part of this libertarian

moment where people want to take power from central institutions and want to kind of distribute it out, so to speak. >> you point out that rand paul accepts, predictably -- >> yeah, the day he announced his candidacy, he said i'm taking donations in bitcoin. >> talk about the real hardcore bitcoin enthusiasts here who have this utopian vision of bitcoin supplanting governments. or at least being the first step towards getting rid of federal government. getting rid of the federal reserve. and hasn't this experiment with bitcoin so far, which has not gone altogether totally smoothly, proven in some ways that you do need a central regulatory body. >> i think that that sort of libertarian core in the united states and in each country where it's taken off, it's drawn a different crowd in. but in the united states it's been very much that crowd.

and which has interestingly bled into the occupy wall street crowd. you know, that desire to again, take power away from the authorities. and they were crucial in kind of standing behind bitcoin when nobody really cared about it and sort of elevating it. elevating it in public discourse. and in that crowd, there is this sense legitimately that this is the thing that will bring governments down. that currency and the ability to print money is what maintains governments. but i think you're exactly right, that part of this experiment has been seeing what happens when you don't have any central institution. yes, the market corrects problems. yes, when there's a faulty company that you eventually learn that. but in that process, you can lose most of your money. and people who don't know better have lost a lot of money on bitcoin. and it is a reminder of the dangers of this sort of decentralized system. >> pretty sure you made that point for folks watching. this is not a bank account where you have fdic insurance backing

it up. you don't want to put your play money in there. >> sketchy characters involved in some cases, too. >> nathaniel popper thank you everyone. >> thanks for having us ari. >> i've got to tell you, rand paul has been saying one thing separates him from every republican running for president. i'm going to tell you why he is on to something. that's next. >> it's time for the your business entrepreneur of the week. this doctor didn't want his skin care line over the counter. he hired sales reps to market the broundand. for more, watch your business sunday mornings. american express for travel and entertainment worldwide. just show them this - the american express card. don't leave home without it! and someday, i may even use it on the moon. it's a marvelous thing! oh! haha!

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some spying powers in the patriot act will expire this weekend if congress doesn't act and that is largely because of rand paul. the freshman senator spent a lot of time defying republican leader mitch mcconnell who tried and failed to muscle the bill

through the holiday break. the controversy is over the massive surveillance exposed by edward snowden and recently ruled illegal by a federal court, when the nsa basically was sending requests to companies like verizon to hand over their records on everyone as rand paul explained. >> the order requires verizon to produce call detail records every day on all telephone calls made through its systems, or using its service, where one or both ends of the phone call are located in the united states. people that don't understand what we're going on is a general warrant. >> instead, the reformers propose the telephone companies hold those records and the nsa can ask for them when they have a reason. that is basically the gist of the alternative bill the usa

freedom act, which got a majority of the senate in a procedure vote after midnight in friday. the majority wasn't enough though, because senator mcconnell and republicans made sure the bill would need 60 votes to proceed. they essentially filibustered it which was a little ironic after the talk of rand paul's non-filibuster last week. the house has already passed the freedom act. the pressure is mounting on mcconnell to figure out a plan this weekend. for the first time since 9/11 congress is close to actually curtailing some of the excesses in a war on terror that has run 14 years with no end in sight. that's due to the work i think, of many people of civil liberties groups like the aclu and the electronic foundation which brought those first spying lawsuits of journalists like gren greenwald, of liberals and here at the finish line when it took standing up to mcconnell and all the national security leaders who say any lapse in the patriot act would endanger us well, this progress is also due

to the leadership of rand paul. yet we're still hear criticism of paul saying this is some political ploy for his campaign. the facts don't really back that up. this is a new campaign issue. and washington usually sides with the security establishment. >> i'm the only one out there saying the patriot act went too far. >> paul may be the only one saying that at the republican debates. and i think he'll be the only one who's right. that does it for our show today. "now with alex wagner" starts right now. >> relentless rain is triggering more flash flood warnings in texas. fifa officials got a rude awakening from u.s. law enforcement. and rick "steady eddie" santorum

is declaring his presidential bid in just one hour. but first, the only two women eyeing the white house in 2016 converged today on south carolina. it's wednesday, may 27th, and this is "now." the anti-clinton the ghost of clinton past and hillary clinton herself all crossed paths in the palmetto state, putting a female focus on her first 2016 campaign visit to the state of south carolina today, hillary clinton met with minority women business owners. after that she delivered the keynote address at the annual day in blue event for the south carolina democratic women's council where she hit the opposing party in the fight for equal pay. >> one republican candidate for president dismissed equal pay as a "bogus issue." another said congress was "wasting time worrying about it." one even said that efforts