deserves answers, just like we must challenge violence in the streets, in the communities as we began this show, we end this show by saying we must also have a balance where the criminal justice system does not have a family 188 days later waiting for answers as to why a 12-year-old was killed by police with a toy gun. thanks for watching. i'm al sharptdon. have a great weekend. "hardball" starts right now. gospel according to paul. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in charlotte, north carolina. if you hated the war with iraq if you believe we've been led into too many middle east wars too many so call regime changes, senator rand paul is as far as republican candidates for

president go the only game in town. >> there is a good chunk of the republican party who thinks that we should think before we act, that war is not always the answer, that war may be the last resort, not the first resort that we have to defend ourselves. we have to have a strong national defense but that sometimes we've got -- we've intervened in the middle east and sometimes we've had unintended consequences. >> nor does he stop with that. in the upcoming interview he suggests that hillary clinton is more of a hawk than he is and i'll say this for him, he's also unique on another republican bugaboo, evolution. unlike presidential wannabes like mike huckabee he says the latest scientific evidence of human life on earth going back millions of year is fully harmonious with his religious beliefs. earlier today i sat down with the senator, senator paul, who has a new book out called "staking a and it" it's called. he was campaigning in rock hill south carolina. senator, thank you for this. in your book "taking a stand" you give a very particular

prescription for how we deal with the fight against isis protect our embassies, our consulates and then leave the fighting to the arab states in the region. what happens if that doesn't work and they end up building a call fate that seems to last? >> i don't think that's exactly what i said. i didn't say leave it to them. i'm more than willing being part of the fight. i think providing air president is reasonable providing armaments to those who are able and willing to fight. would i provide armaments to the kurds as well. i would go one step further, promising them a homeland and state and do it in conjunction with turkey. it would have to be a three-way discussion, kurds, homeland and i would like to get the kurds involved as well. would i really like to see, and i think the ultimate answer will have to be sunnis that are civilized, sunnis islam rooting out this aberration because you're never -- in mosul they will never tolerate a shiite garrison. never will tolerate an american garrison either. we could win the war with our power, by going in with half a

million troops again but at what cost and really the question is if the people who live there are not willing to fight for it is there aunlt mat victory that we can give them? >> if the choice comes down to us going in big time with ground troops and wing the war ourselves and leaving the call fate, what's the choice what do you do if it comes to that? >> we have to make a decision when are american interests involved and what does that mean? sometimes we get too glibly there. say there's an american interest. that's the conclusion to. me the beginning of the debate is what is an american interest, and does it change as circumstances change? i think that we had an american interest in benghazi. it's one of the things i've faulted hillary clinton over. i don't think she did enough to defend our consulate there. and i think there's an analogy in that there's a cons irbil and kurdistan and also in baghdad. those are american interests. if we're going to stay in the region we need diplomatic outposts there.

we have to defend them. the debate though should be in congress, not just in the executive branch. war was very clearly that power, the initiation of war was given to congress not to the president. so i've been asking and asking and i introduced actually a declaration of war against isis. it's not that i want to do nothing. i want to do it constitutionally and i really want to do it in a way that will be a lasting victory, and i think that would include arab boots on the ground. >> we lost four good people over in benghazi because somebody left the door open some would say and lost 3,000 americans in 2001 and the democrats haven't been hitting that issue ever since. don't bad things happen. why does the republican party keep bang on the door of benghazi politically when the democrats really said you know we got hit, even though we were warned, that bin laden was going to attack united states back in 2001. he did and we lost 3,000 people but you don't heart democrats spending the last 14 years talking about it, do you? >> i think there's an important question. >> what's the difference? >> i think there's an important question, and i think there's an important analogy really between

hussein and toppling gadhafi, and i think if there's one true thing that we mow from the middle east is every time we've toppled a secular dictator whether hussein or gadhafi we have gotten chaos. we've got more of the rise of radical islam and i believe we're more at risk in libya, not just the benghazi thing, but because of gadhafi being toppled and being a chaotic failed state, i think we're more at risk for attacks from libya but i'm pretty ecumenical with the blame on this thing. i'm more than willing to say toppling hussein made iraq for all intents and purposes a failed state and we're more at risk-for-attacks from isis and others because of iraq being a failed state. >> let me ask you. your book is pretty clear. you say some people are too eager to go to war, and i've watched you over the years and i think you're very consistent on that. it's almost like reading in the party, bill crystal say you ought to be bernie sanders, liberal democrat. suppose they are right.

>> here's the interesting thing. >> are they right that you're really the only person not a hawk in your party? >> here's the interesting thing. some of the pundits who know nothing but glory for war, they live inside the beltway and have not yet been to america so i invite them to come to iowa. i invite them to come to america. i invite them to come to south carolina. there was a poll in iowa a couple of months ago, and it said do you believe in more intervention, more foreign intervention like john mccain or less intervention like rand paul? almost evenly split. there is a good chunk of the republican party who thinks that we should think before we act, that war is not always the answer, that war may be the last resort, not the first resort that we have to defend ourselves. we have to have a strong national defense but that sometimes we've intervened in the middle east and sometimes we've had unintended consequences, and i don't know how you can be honest intellectual person to take an approach in the middle east and not believe that we've gotten some things that we really didn't intend to happen. >> i think the polling shows that you're right. i mean beating hillary clinton

in a fairly recent poll in pennsylvania head-to-head and doing best head-to-head with her nationally and everybody else in your party is trying to be a hawk and you're the only one that says i don't think the american republican voter, the religion republican, not the neo-con, not someone who reads "the weekly standard" by a regular republican voter is tired of these war. why does bill kristol have all the influence. >> hasn't traveled outside the beltway enough. once he gets out into the rest of america in kentucky where we live in middle part of the america or anyone outside the beltway, there's a disconnect between the washington insiders and the rest of us in both parties. hillary clinton is much more hawkish and more likely to get us involved in another war, than most of america, republican or democrat. you see the little boomlet for other people on democrat side. people aren't so eager to believe that his his was right to take us to war in libya, and so i think you'll find that as it gets out to the regular voters outside of washington,

there's a much more mixed and nuanced feeling about war. >> on a scale of 1 to 10 a dove being 0, hawk being 10 where's hillary? >> you know, i'm not sure exactly. >> is she a 7? >> well i think what she is i think she's been indiscriminate in the use of force and i think not thinking. there are people on both sides that are rational good thinkers. brent scowcroft, i'm not sure what side of the friends. brzezinski, both realists one republican and one democrat but both thoughtful men who have a profound understanding of world events and then there are people who are knee-jerk reactionries that really think war is always the answer and i meet the young men who have lost their limbs, who have sacrificed their lives, not one of them is flippant about war. they are very serious about war, and i think we need more of that maybe in the white house, but also more of that in washington. >> let me be you have to. i'll get to the next point in your book. is big money driving the republican party to the hawkish

side the big god fathers of candidates who just come in there and say i'll give you $200 million but talk the line? >> big money drives both parties. >> to the right. >> big money is in control of both positions. >> to the hawkish position. >> just big money in general for a variety of positions, but i have one proposal that i've been putting forward that i think might work. most of the campaign finance reform has been shot down in defiance of the first amendment. there's another way that you can go about this that i don't think would defy the first amendment at all what. i would do is say anybody who does business with government would i write into their contract limitations on their influences of elections. giving lobbying, you name it. you could have anything because it would be voluntary. if you get $1 billion contract from government, you're going to provide something for government, you shut maybe not be allowed to lobby. maybe you shouldn't be allowed to give at all. maybe we should regulate your top 20 officers but you can do it by making it part of the contract. they would voluntarily accept these restrictions. they would not be mandates voluntary contractual

restrictions. i think if we can get unified both democrats saying they would be willing to restrict the unions and republicans willing to restrict big contractors that do business with government you think you might get some of the special interest money out of politics. >> do you think dick cheney and halliburton would go along with that? you've been tough on the republican party. you've been running as an outlier because you said the party sucks. >> no no, i said the brand suction. there's a difference. >> what's the difference between the brand and the image? what's the difference between the brand and reality? >> there's hope for redemption. remember domino's they said our brand sucks. >> yeah. >> they redid their crust and presentation and domino's is doing fine. >> that's right, it's in the book. >> so the thing is -- >> what was wrong with the pizza crust? >> i'm not exactly sure. >> too much crust, i think it was. >> i'm not sure what it was, but they listened and so i was in the south side of chicago yesterday campaigning in the south side of chicago saying i've got something to offer for poverty. i've got something to offer for your crummy schools and got

something to offer for the fact that both republicans and democrats have taken a generation of young black men and put them in jail and i think it's wrong and we've gone way too far, and i think people are taking notice of me coming there, and i don't take the vote for granted. not only do republicans not go there typically. democrats don't either and democrats take all of that vote for granted, and you know what the biggest thing they talked to me about on the south side of chicago? they don't like the machine. they don't -- they say money is directed towards helping us poor people, but it's sucked up by the machine in chicago and so the government unions soak it all up and we still live in poverty here and nothing gets better. >> two of the top republican leaders in pennsylvania have praised voter i.d. laws that they have been trying to push through. the courts have been holding them up as ways of republicans winning elections in pennsylvania. you've called that kind of pressure a push for voter i.d. laws dumb. where are you on that? do you think it's voter suppression? i think it is. >> i don't think it's voter suppression. the think that's the biggest limitation on voting in our country for african-americans

and for many minorities is having a felony record. there's 2 million people can't vote in our country because of felony record. nothing else comes anywhere even close. i think our side has overstated fraud. i know i've seen how fraud works in elections. >> where have you seen it? >> i've read about it. i don't think i've actually seen it. >> well, in my father's elections for congress, there were elections where there was fraud committed we believe and we went to court over it but the fraud typically in elections from my understanding isn't people coming up borrowing someone's i.d. and falsely voting. it's when you leave a desk unattended and only one party is sitting at a precinct and 3,000 votes are done by one person so it's not really an i.d. thing. it's a matter of both parties need to be represented in every precinct in america, and i think there's probably less of it than there once was. more in the '60s, '70s. >> very hard to find a republican precinct worker in big cities but i also wonder would you like to push for voter i.d. requirements or not? yes or no where are you?

>> it's complicated because i've made answers and people have been misinterpreted. i'm not against voter -- people showing their driver's license. i show my driver's license. states have every right to make sure that the elections are not fraudulent but where i am on the other side of it from a political perspective it's really dumb of us to make a big linchpin that we're going to go after, you know making sure that you can't vote early and the drivers -- we've overemphasize an issue that doesn't need to be -- >> you're a tree hugger. >> absolutely. trying to grow a giant sequoia in my hard 15 different trees and i've succeeded in getting one 15 feet tall. it's hard to grow a giant sequoia outside of california and i read about one in northern georgia growing 150 feet tall and i can do that. but i haven't succeeded yet. >> this is a question that always gets me in trouble and the reason i won't moderate very

many republican debates. >> i heard you're on the short list. >> 3.5 million years ago, this is -- this blows me away and i know you're an intellectual about lucy has another relative out there, prehistoric men, humanoids. what does that tell you about history? does it give you a sense of the length of human experience on this planet, i mean about evolution and how long it's taken? i'm blown away by it, and apparently the big animals were 16 million years. what do those things mean to you, the numbers? >> one of my favorite depictions of evolution was a pizza place in atlanta, fellini's i think and i think they showed the different evolutionary stage of man and the final incarnation of man were like elvis, elton john. >> are you going to try to slip this question? where are you on evolution? >> obviously we evolved. >> and millions of years are all part of our history? >> billions. the planet is 4.5 billion years

old. >> doesn't offend your religious beliefs to accept there's been human life for millions of years? >> i think you can see god in a lot of different forms, and i think that it's really harder to argue to the contrariy that there was no god involved whether it's a big bang or some kind of beginning that we came out of nothing. i think it's harder for the human mind to conceive of coming out of nothingness other than there is something behind what we are. >> well said. thank you for your time. >> thank you. again, senator paul's book is called "taking a stand." coming up reaction to my interview with rand paul. actually polls shows he runs pretty strong against hillary clinton but can a non-interventionist win a nomination against a bunch of war hawks. but first the case against former speaker of the house dennis hastert. pete williams reports that hastert was paying a man to conceal a sexual relationship when the man was a student at the high school where hastert

coached. and a battle important to me, the fight to beat alzheimer's. let me finish with rand paul's unique attraction to republican voters, and this is "hardball," the place for politics.

new polling on the 2016 presidential race and for that we checked the "hardball" scoreboard. according to the new quinnipiac polhill hill leads rand paul by four points in a general election matchup. it's clinton 46 paul 42. against marco rubio, clinton again has a four-point lead. clinton 45 rubio 41. clinton leads former arkansas governor mike huckabee by seven. 47-40 and against wisconsin governor scott walker, her lead grows to eight with clinton 46 and walker down to 38 and tops new jersey governor chris christie by nine points and look at this. she's running ahead of jeb bush by ten points 47-37. finally, clinton beads ted cruz by 11 points. it's clinton 48 and cruz 37.

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welcome back to the "hardball." presidential candidate rand paul took a shot at democratic front-runner hillary clinton in my interview with the senator from kentucky earlier today warning that she's more likely to take to us war than most democrats or republicans. let's watch. >> hillary clinton is much more hawkish and much more likely to get us involved in another war than most of america, republican or democrat. you see this little boomlet for other people out there it is. >> yeah. >> on the democrat side there are people who aren't so eager to believe that hillary clinton was right taking us to war in libya, and so i think you'll find that as it gets out to the regular voters outside of washington there's a much more mixed and nuanced feeling about war. >> on a scale of 1 to 10 dove being 0, hawk being 10, where's hillary? >> you know, i'm not sure exactly. >> is she a 7? >> yeah. i think what she is i think she's been indiscriminate in the use of force and i think not thinking. >> joining me right now for reaction to my interview with

senator paul is president obama's former chief strategist david axelrod and former white house political director under george w. bush matt schlapp. what did you make that have call briggs, wouldn't give me a number between 1 and 10 when i suggested 7 on hillary clinton on her hawkishness but tough on placing her it seemed to his right when it came to his hawkish side, when it came to starting wars? >> look when you look at your interview and his answer to that question and what he's doing on the patriot act, it seems like rand paul sees this lane and this lane you is look at the poll numbers you threw up on the screen earlier, you know. rand paul sees a lane that he can appeal to independents. he can appeal to young voters. he can basically appeal to voters who are war weary, and i think your interview with him showed that. >> what do you think david? i think he's working the only game in town. in other words, he's making himself among 18 candidates. >> right. >> for the republican nomination the only one who says you know what we've been too war-like?

gone instinctively too war-like. >> absolutely right. the name of the game when you have such a large field is market segmentation how do you differentiate yourself from the others? obviously these views are consistent with the ones he's been articulating over a long period of time and i think that the name of the game in iowa in new hampshire is how do you expand the base your base of support? how do you bring new people into the -- into the electorate and he's -- this is his path to doing that. the question when the field -- i think he can get somewhere down the field doing this. the question is when the field winnows down are a majority of republicans willing to accept that point of view and i think that's a very iffy question. >> yeah. right now he's running pretty much even with secretary clinton in pennsylvania which i think is a state that's deer hunter country. it likes guns. it likes to go out and shoot deer. doesn't like stupid wars. anyway, they are the ones that have to fight. on the issue of evolution, i know they hate talking about this on the republican side

matt, a plurality of republicans do not believe human beings evolved over time but instead existed in their present forms since the beginning of time. that's the belief of most republicans, according to a pew time released in january 14 not a million years ago, january 14. >> right. >> here's senator paul on that subject today. >> religious beliefs to accept the fact that there's been human life for millions of years? >> i think you can see god in many different forms and it's really harder to argue to the contrary that there was no god involved, that it was a big bang or some sort of beginning that we came out of nothing. harder for the human mind coming out of nothingness? >> what will huckle chuckle do with that information? santorum is another one of these flat earthers when it comes to have lose. i don't know -- it's not our religion roman catholic religion to believe anything other than evolution which is scientific fact but for some reason the republican party wants candidates who have the

literal interpretation of the bible, of genesis and that's where they are. why is that a political issue with your party? >> well because i think people keep asking them and it's perfectly clear in america that we have a religious zone and people can have their religious views. the world just lost father ted hesper, president of notre dame and he taught me that religion and faith are compatible. >> right. >> that scientific fact comes from our understanding of religion and faith and i think -- >> that's what i was taught too. >> and the fact, that you know god created us and created us as human beings is perfectly consistent with the idea that also human beings have improved. >> why does someone in your part have a problem with science? >> because a lot of people think the theory of evolution means that i evolved from a tadpole and that's also wrong so let's get the science right and get the science right in the womb where a lot of democrats fail to look at the science. >> david, seems to me part of this is the absurd belief by people like huckabee someone around the earth has been

salting the earth with old phony year bones, like lucy 3.5 million years old were put there by bad lefties from the west side of new york. i don't know where they get the idea but they hate it when someone says there's science involved in the history of humanity and that's why i brought it up today, not just to cause trouble but the people should be outed who think like that. >> those people will find a constituency, for example, in the iowa caucuses where there's a big social conservative and over time you talk about the swing constituencies across the country, rand paul's position would be a comfort to them but if you're going to be supportive of science, be supportive of science all the way. can't be a tree hugger and deny that the planet is warming and that human beings have something to do with it. that's a hump that senator paul hasn't gotten over yet so there are questions that will arise over time. he's doing a good job of passing this first test and answering these questions at first level, but as you drill down it's going to become more difficult for him.

>> well, here's something we talked a lot about. senator paul agreed big money in politics is in control of both parties. he wouldn't quite go there, i said is it pushing both parties to the right on war policy but here he is. is big money in politics driving the republican party to the hawkish side the big god fathers of candidates who say i'll give you $200 million but talk the line? >> big money drives both parties. >> to the right. >> big money is in control of both parties. >> to the hawkish party. >> big money in general for a variety of positions. let me ask you about that. matt, again, it's a tricky question, but we have well-known billionaires out there you know sheldon adelson and this guy braman behind rubio, who openly have hard right hawkish positions on the middle east very hard right, and -- and they have these candidates that are almost like the devotees. it's getting pretty blunt. money is pushing us to the right, i think. what do you think? >> well, my criticism of my

party and many of its candidates is we're not doing a very good job of kind of being respectful in this conversation with the big donors. it's done in such a gaudy and public way, but we also have our -- our big donors on the right who are more libertarian so i'm not sure it's all coming from the one side. >> why are they all hawks? >> i don't think that's right. >> there's plenty of libertarian. >> name knee a dove? >> peter dove the koch brothers. >> the koch brothers are doves, i didn't hear that before. >> my party is a party that is trying to find its way back on these sets of issues. ronald reagan said peace through strength and they are looking at what they got in the latter years of the bush administration, and they are rethinking, so i think your interview with rand paul really shows that this is a conversation the republican party is currently having. >> do you think ronald reagan would have taken us into iraq? >> are you asking me that? >> yes, matt. >> yeah, i don't. i actually don't. >> we agree on that. you learned something at notre dame. that's so proving of that point.

let me go to my friend david. these are all sad cases and anybody gets a kick out of this is a problem. i'm just saddened by this story of denny hastert. i don't know all the facts but what we're hearing now looks like a case if he did something when he was a coach and he tried to cover it up. that's what it looks like and there may have been blackmail involved, we don't know, but the details of this charge against him is pretty graphic. >> no. this is a -- a terribly terribly sad story. it's -- it's sad for everyone involved and it's shocking to those of us who knew him. i ran, chris, the first race against him, the first democratic race against him when he ran for congress as a state senator, and it was a hard fought race on issues. there was -- but there was never any doubt about his character or about any of this stuff, so i think for everyone who knows him, this came out of the blue and let me add that for someone from illinois the thought of a scandal where the politician was actually paying out the cash instead of receiving it that's a whole new thing out here. >> you've got a hll of a queue

of governors who all went into the big house. thank you very much for your honesty. david axelrod, matt great to have you on the show. i almost went to notre dame. got a better offer from holy cross. >> come now, win one for the gypper. >> up next more on okay? ing think developments in the criminal case against former house speaker dennis hastert. nbc news is reporting hastert was paying a man to conceal a sexual relationship they had when the man was a student at the high school where hastert coached wrestling. that's ahead, and this is "hardball," the place for politics. em your credit is in pretty good shape. >>pretty good? i know i have a 798 fico score thanks to the tools and help on experian.com. kaboom... well, i just have a few other questions. >>chuck, the only other question you need to ask is, "what else can you do for me?" i'll just take a water... get your credit swagger on. become a member of experian credit tracker and find out your fico score powered by experian. fico scores are used in 90% of credit decisions.

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put your hand over your heart. is it beating? good! then my nutrition heart health mix is for you. it's a wholesome blend of peanuts, pecans and other delicious nuts specially mixed for people with hearts. i said people with hearts. because hearts health is important. that's why i've researched optimized and packaged this mix just for you. not you. so if you have a heart start optimizing your nutrition with my nutrition. planters. nutrition starts with nut. welcome back to "hardball." well, there are new developments today in this story that's blaring right through washington former republican house speaker dennis hastert of illinois was indicted yesterday on federal charges of lying to the fbi and evading currency reporting requirements. court documents say that hastert allegedly paid out $1.7 million

cash in apparent hush money to a person referred to only as "individual a." part of a larger payout of $3.5 million to individual "a" intended to compensate for and conceal his prior misconduct that occurred years earlier. well a federal law enforcement official has now confirmed that individual "a" is a male and that the incident in question involves sexual misconduct during hastert's time as a high schoolteacher and wrestling coach. nbc news also confirmed that the man who was individual "a" was a student at the time. i'm joined right now by nbc news justice correspondent pete williams. pete, is that as far as we've gotten right now, that it was a student, a male, something to do with sexual misconduct? what do we know if anything more? >> yes, that's the essence of my reporting, chris. there are a couple of other aspects here. one is some officials have described this as quote, sexual abuse. the people i've talked to have not described it that way, but that may be semantics if the person was a student.

we don't know whether the student was underage under illinois law or whether it was just because of the teacher-student relationship. and, of course the second thing about this is no matter what happened, it -- denny hastert cannot be charged with this now. he can't be charged with whatever conduct that was now for a whole bunch of reasons. all the time that has passed would make it very hard to bring a case and secondly the statute of limitations would have long since expired. so we have i think now a greater understanding of why this case is shaped the way it is with the currency violations and the lying to the fbi charge. so it's -- it sort of gets around it but it doesn't deal with it directly. >> do we know where this story was sourced, how it got out, how the whole thing began? an individual "a" was getting the money. it would seem that that person would want to continue to get the money. wouldn't want to blot case. do we know how this got out?

>> the indication in the government documents is that it was the pages that became suspicious. they have to report any transactions over $10,000. the first 15 withdrawals from his bank the government says were $50,000, and according to the court documents the bank started asking him about that at which point he cut the size of his withdrawals down to $10,000, and so the bank thought, well you know maybe he's trying to cover up something suspicious. the fbi came in and that's how they got on to the case. >> pete williams thanks so much for the reporting tonight from nbc news. let's bring in the roundtable for us tonight, john stanton with buzz feed broke this story yesterday as well as susan milligan all the time political report we are "u.s. news & world report" and john than cape hart of "the washington post." john stanton, i guess congratulations are in order but it's not so much my human feeling for denny hastert, i don't know the man but i do have a feeling about the reputation of our public officials.

this isn't bad for illinois which has had a bad history as david axelrod pointed of corrupt officials. this is about a man in this case, man works has been given great respect as a public official for many years and seen as one of the rain clean-cut guys in the business no problems of ethics and here we go. >> you know it's actually even for the house of representatives in particular it's really sort of terrible because under his watch as speaker they had, you know scandal after scandal involving impropriety with ear marks, with potential sexual misconduct by members and he was always sort of seen as this figure that well it was going on on his watch, he was never directly involved in any of this, and for this to come out it really sort of brings back that sort of stark problem that congress had for, you know ten years or so. >> jonathan cape hart you study washington and the congress. how does this fit -- did anybody ever have a whisper about this guy having had a past problem or anything that he was covering covering up? >> no i mean the reputation of

former speaker hastert was that he was squeaky clean, almost boring compared to his predecessors, and that was a good thing in the house, you know, someone kind of boring and someone with a steady hand who could keep the place functioning, and that's why i think this took everyone by surprise because this was the -- hastert was the last person you would equate with any kind of scandal and most certainly this kind of scandal. >> susan, you know his reputation as a former wrestling coach was part of his charm pause here's a smalltown guy who looked out for kids. everybody likes high school teachers. it's a great brand, and you wonder if maybe that's why he was so sensitive and paid a zillion dollars to keep this story out of the newspapers i don't know. makes sense. >> well, of course you would want to keep this story out of the newspapers anyway and i think a lot of us when the indictment first came out last night and it was so cryptic in the way it described what happened and your thought was it must have been something with a student. otherwise this amount of money wouldn't have been paid or

requested, we're not really sure who reached out to whom of course and they talk about his high school years, but, again, i have to tell you i don't shock easily. i was stunned when this came out because he really was about the last person and keep in mind he got picked as speaker because bob livingston who was supposed to be next in line after gingrich was forced to step down, it was found out he had an affair and because they were impeaching president clinton at the time they had to do it it -- it's really just so stunning. >> and it was a long series involving jim wright as well forced out as speaker. >> yes. >> let's look at a little item here, i don't know how you describe, it better not give a description because i don't know, somebody who called up c-span when denny hastert was on last year in 2014 2014 who made this comment, just read it for yourself and what you think of it. >> illinois is our next call. here's bruce, independent line. hi. >> hello, deny. >> hey, how are you doing? >> pretty good. remember me from yorkville? >> bruce, you're on.

go ahead. >> john stanton, what do you make naff? >> i don't know if it's related to this case or not, but certainly in the context of the indictment it does have to rays some questions. i mean at a minimum it's one of the creepier things that's ever happened on speeches abe. >> i agree. the roundtable is staying with us, and we'll have much more on these allegations against former speaker hastert in a minute. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. there's some facts about seaworld we'd like you to know. we don't collect killer whales from the wild. and haven't for 35 years. with the hightest standard of animal care in the world, our whales are healthy. they're thriving. i wouldn't work here if they weren't. and government research shows they live just as long as whales in the wild. caring for these whales, we have a great responsibility to get that right. and we take it very seriously. because we love them. and we know you love them too.

i'm milissa rehberger. here's what's happening. president barack obama wants the u.s. senate to take reform on the usa freedom act, wants lawmakers to act before some provisions expire on sun. the u.s. has officially removed cuba from state sponsors of terrorism. the two countries are working to restore diplomatic relations and

open embassies. and the death toll from the devastating floods in texas and oklahoma continues to rise. officials now say 27 people are dead, 13 remain missing. back to "hardball." >> i am saddened by you know this news and nobody wants to see a person's career of public service have this as their capstone. >> we're back to "hardball." that chicago mayor rahm emanuel who served in congress with former speaker dennis hastert. we're back with our roundtable of course, john susan and jonathan. you know jonathan back not too many years ago the people in illinois on both sides of the aisle, republicans and democrats, were pretty close you know people like bob michael and rostkowski used to drive out toil know every weekend in a station wagon with two other people of different parties. a lot of political camaraderie in each other's company but i'm

not sure this is a partisan thing at all. i think they will feel bad about this in both parties. what went on with him and the kid apparently, a student, is a bad thing but just tragedy all around them now. this is just bad. >> well, right, and that clip from mayor emanuel sort of exemplifies what you're talking about, and what we were talking about in the last segment. this is the last person you thought this would happen to. his reputation denny hastert's reputation in washington and on capitol hill and as speaker was -- was one of someone squeaky clean, someone who because he was squeaky clean and ethically pure so we thought then, that you know he could stand on his own reputation and when you see something like this happen to someone with that kind of reputation partisanship goes aside and you can only feel mournful for that person, for the -- for that person's family in particular, but also for the people of their particular state who voted that person into

office. >> john stanton, you know, you alluded to it earlier but during the course of speaker hastert's term as speak they are was the case of mark foley down in florida where i think he had problems obviously, but he was, you know flirting with whatever kids in the -- in the page dorm you know that kind of thing was going on, and i guess that's all going to be brought back now. >> yeah to a certain degree. people will look at how the speaker handled it. he was criticized at the time frankly over his handling of it and not sort of immediately, you know, pushing representative foley out and some of the ways that he and his staff dealt with that, and i think -- but, you know, remember back then the question really wasn't -- the political question wasn't so much the -- you know the inappropriate relationship that foley was having with this boy and the pages group but that how leadership handled it, and i think even then you know people tried to keep you know from politicizing the bad act itself and more tried to keep it all in sort of how he acted, but i don't think there's any chance

that this isn't going to come back again and be a topic of conversation. >> susan, what does this tell you about the inside of politics? does this make you think oh, my god, i thought i knew these things, someone like mark foley was the man out and maybe there's a problem here dealing with young children and adult responsibilities is probably the overall rubric here. how do you deal with your responsibilities as an adult and in the company of teenagers? >> well yeah i mean, look there's something going on here. if he's having relationships or relationship with an underage boy, we don't know if he was underage, has a whole different connotation than if he wasn't a student obviously and just another adult. i think john is right. it just brings back the handling of the issue, but it's a separate thing than some of the other stuff that's gone on some of the corruption things. aaron schock the one who had his office redone in "downton abbey," nobody was sorry to see that guy go nobody thought he was a serious stellar publicer is van but what's so painful about this is that denny hastert

really did exemplify to people the idea of a serious solid public servant and if something like this can happen involving him, you just don't know whom you can trust anymore really on the hill. i think that the institution takes a big hit because of this. >> the roundtable is staying with us and up next the fight against alzheimer's. are we doing all we can to beat this deadly disease? this is "hardball," the place for politics. but not every insurance company understands the life behind it. ♪ those who have served our nation have earned the very best service in return. ♪ usaa. we know what it means to serve. get an auto insurance quote and see why 92% of our members plan to stay for life. i am totally blind. and sometimes i struggle to sleep at night, and stay awake during the day. this is called non-24. learn more by calling 844-824-2424.

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slowly succumb to the disease. he became somewhat of an exercise but was shocked by the lack of interest on the committee. almost nobody on the committee bothered to show up. >> i think what we find so frustrating is it seems to be a low priority. it seems to be these people don't care. that's the direct impression they're giving by leaving. two of them were falling asleep during the testimony literally. i saw it happening. >> the "washington post" profiles the struggles of alzheimer's activists to both raise awareness and fight the disease for themselves at the same time. one of the them wrote "will it take someone like me to have some sort of shoot-out like columbine before someone will notice? i'm failing and dying at the

same time. that fella didn't do anything wrong except he scared some people. my view john is everybody who has been through this personally know what is they're talking about. you've got some experience. >> i've had a couple of family members who had alzheimer's and my wife volunteers with an organization in bethesda maryland who does hospice for people with alzheimer's. there's not enough money, not enough attention. her organization, they often will do fund-raiser to raise money for things like ipods to use in music therapy. it's shocking you'd have to do that for a disease that it's wide spread enough so that most people in their family know somebody who is touched by it. >> i don't think we should count on the market to solve this disease. we occasionally think we're almost there, figuring out things in the brain.

but waiting aren't for the commercial market to come up with a drug to make enough money doesn't seem the way to go. we need the nih here. george bradenberg and his wife have done great contributions but i don't think the private sector is up to it. >> i agree. the only thing we can open you look at congress and how they used to not fund cancer research and as more and more people had a family member or friend who suffered from it they took more of a personal interest in it. i'm surprised it hasn't happened yet with alzheimer's because there have been so many people affected by it. i think honestly it's such a terrifying illness they don't want to think about it. the idea about something happen to wore body physically is threatening enough but the idea that it can happen to your mind is terrifying to us. and they don't want to give it any attention. >> and for my mom, who wanted to be alive at that age and some

very smart people get hit late in life and nailed on these things. i hope the private people like the bradenbergs keep up the good work. this thing can be beaten. when we return, let me finish tonight with rand paul's unique appeal and it is one, to republican governors. are you still getting heartburn flare-ups? time for a new routine. try nexium® 24hr. the latest choice for frequent heartburn. get complete protection. nexium level protection.

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let me finish tonight with

rand paul's unique attraction to republicans voters. his libertarian views are a part of it and the other are his domination of the war hogs. it seems to be you back the war of iraq the knocking off of gadhafi and look forward to blowing the hell out of iran. there's always another war in the queue so let's get to it. listening to senator paul tonight, you heard a different voice, someone who believes the average republican voter might well hear his message and like it. we'll see. it's the effort to find the nation's sweet spot that will convert a campaign appeal into a presidency. kennedy had it in 1960 with his promise to get this country moving again. obama had it in 2008 when he came out against the iraq war. if rand paul becomes the republican presidential nominee

next summer the reason will be basic, because he and he alone connected with the company's deepest urge to end the endless call to mideast war. that's "hardball" for now. "all in" with chris hayes starts right now. >> tonight on "all in" -- >> it's surprising i think that would be a universal response. >> bombshell revelation. a federal law enforcement official tells nbc news that former speaker of the house dennis hastert was making payments to a man to conceal sexual contact they had while that man was a high school student. we'll have the latest details. >> there are some a strain that will agree with rand paul but the vast majority of republican voters are not going to agree with him. >> then it's rand paul versus the field as key provisions of the patriot act are set to expire. and