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>> it is the top of the hour isn't it? this prison break crazy. >> yes, it is. that's why we're starting with it. >> no, we're not. >> willie and i are not seeing it. willie and i had actually done this in turkey in '78. the prison bars are a little different. >> i want to start with it. >> i still have a lot of questions. >> it's got a lot of questions. >> inside. >> no one heard the power tools cutting metal in the middle of the night? >> they squeezed through a pipe? really? and they're out there and they're incredibly dangerous. >> you know who else is dangerous? isis. what is this? oh we got an animation. wow. >> alex explain the joke. see, this is like hard to even imagine that it was carried out. and it happened. >> look at that. >> look at the pipe. they cut through the -- there

are several things they had to cut through going to the pipe. then the manhole coverings itself, was chained closed on the inside. how did they get out? it's like houdini. i'm serious. >> come on somebody is helping inside. there is help. you hear that plane is still missing, too the malaysian plane. >> it's different. >> no it's actually much less significant. >> it's a fascinating story. i really am -- >> so we have the justices rejecting, siding with the white house. >> seinfeld is saying some things mit want to hear. >> isis is significant as well. what about turkey? huh, that election crazy? but jeb bush campaign shake-up there. that's pretty significant. >> i'm not one that thinks our particular template of democracy is appropriate for every other country. the idea that we could fashion a

democracy in iraq seemed to me unrealistic. i was concerned about it. >> fascinating. we begin with president obama. he's back home at the white house this morning. but washington is still buzzing about comments he made at the g 7 summit about the fight against isis. >> we want to get more iraqi security forces trained, fresh, well equipped and focused. a finalize plan is presented to me by the pentagon then i will show it to the american people. we don't yet have a complete strategy requires commitment on the part of the iraqis as well. how recruitment takes place, how that training takes place. so the details of that are fought yet worked out. >> the pentagon later said those comments were only referring to the training and equipment of iraqi forces. it did not help matters that

president obama was also criticized for making a similar remark nine months ago about fighting isis in syria. >> i don't want to put the cart before the horse. we don't have a strategy yet. i think what i've seen in some of the news reports suggests that folks are getting a little further ahead of where we are. but there is no point in me asking for action on the part of congress before i know exactly what it is that is going to be required for us to get the job done. >> willie geist, you helped mastermind the plan for d-day. >> operation overlord. >> that was a good one. so you obviously understand the importance of actually having a game plan when you are fighting the enemy. >> i think it's remarkable to hear him actually say it out loud. we don't have a complete strategy. >> in 2014 and again if 2015. >> then he went on to talk about how the iraqi army is not

repaired. he said we have enough iraqi soldiers to get up to sped so they can fight isis. he basically said in a different way what ash carter said a few weeks ago an got in trouble perhaps saying the iraqi army is not up to the task. >> everybody that comes on the set that is an expert that has been over there from dexter philkin, i say him because he was there in afghanistan before afghanistan was the center of american foreign policy. everybody says the same thing. iraqi forces can't be trained to beat isis. there is no iraqi forces. dexter says everybody he talks to in iraq is something else. they're not iraqi. they're sunni, shia, from a tribe, this or that and a unified army talking about that that's total copout. sayingee not talking about the president, republicans say it on the campaign trail, everybody says what we need to do is train

the iraqi army. that's copout. ayman, it's a copout again because iraq is not iraq. kurds will fight for what they spleev kurdistan. but the sunnis who basically made up the backbone of saddam hussein's army the entire military infrastructure will never fight for a centralized government that is run, in part by the iranians will they? >> i think it's a little more complex. i think on the surface that's a key factor. keep in mind for decades the iraqi national identity was dominated by saddam hussein, certainly the baathist corps made up of sunnis. in the wake of the 2003 invasion, that was up ended. now they are trying to bring them back together with a national identity. i think that's much harder than anyone would have predicted. you also have the iranians that

have their interest. they are fighting for group interests and those will -- >> ayman, that's kind of what i said. so do you say it was more complicated than what i said just to make you look smart? i'm just curious? maybe you agree with me. >> no, i can never look smarter than you, joe. >> oh. >> more aman bye-bye. >> hold on a second. >> i guess what i was trying to say is it's not just. there are times when there is a convergence of interests and there are times where it's not simply about sunni and shias. >> right. >> you now have a big part of the iraqi government that is shyia but why aren't the shias fighting why are they preferring to fight in militias? so it's not purely about -- >> why is that? >> i think you have right now the religious aspect of many of these leaders, including, you know, the iranian interests in the country that are making it difficult for the national army

to emerge as a single fighting force. >> yeah. >> that's why i was saying it's not purely along sectarian lines, wherever there is a sunni shia divide. in some cases, there are shia secular divide. >> there is a shia shia divide. in is a sunni, sunni divide. ayman said it right. there is chaos. you got shia that don't want to be an extension of the iranian, you get moderate sunnis that would actually like to push back isis. they're not going to push back isis if it helps iranian backed shia militia take over their towns. it's total chaos. >> and totally definitely a way to make you go down a notch intellectually. i can do that on my own. the sniffing glue thing really did not. >> let me put into context rumsfeld. >> what about donald rumsfeld. >> former secretary donald rumsfeld made that notable admission about the iraq war, which i mentioned at the top.

>> can we go a second welly and mimi ka and i got to stop calling you. last week we were the green meanies. >> right. >> now it's -- >> i like this better. >> by the way, did i not look like tony soprano that, gleam thing. i walk around. you get bunched up. >> you don't want me to talk about donald rumsfeld. >> i do. this is fascinating. >> it is. >> rumsfeld i killed rumsfeld for a loot of thingst of things that he did. rumsfeld actually did say to some of the people in the very beginning, okay if we won the war, let's get out, guy, you know, but everybody is saying oh if you broke it you own it. but rumsfeld was like we're not occupiers, let's do what we do and then get out. >> there was a lot of criminal for the strategy there. >> terrible strategy. >> he served under president bush from 2001 to 2006 and tells

the british newspaper "the time's" that the 43rd president was wrong to try to build a democracy in iraq. he says in part i'm not one that thinks our particular template of democracy appropriate for other countries at every moment of their histories. the idea that we could fashion a democracy in iraq seemed to me unrealistic. i was concerned about it when i first heard those words. >> you know it's all going to be written in the history books. you look at the chaos that's happened in the middle east and -- >> that's an architect. that's one thing most of the architects of the iraq war have held if i recall and completely acted as if nothing is going on nothing has changed. he's saying he shouldn't have. >> isn't that stunning. i think he is saying we shouldn't have tried to build a democracy there. >> what else are we going to do once we went in? go in there and cut it up and

leave? that's exactly what we still got now, something you cannot solve. it would have better not to go in. >> i agree with you. i think most sane rational people womanly, would agreement there are a few holdouts. >> hiding under -- >> the failed japanese in the islands in 1953 still waiting to kill macarthur when they get a good shot. >> rumsfeld is not saying the invasion is mistake. he couldn't possibly say that because of his role if getting the country ready for that. i think it's odd that he's singleing out george w. bush as if george w. bush unilaterally made the decision to bring democracy to iraq. there was obviously a whole cab net full of people. >> just a week before his scheduled announcement, jeb bush is shaking up his campaign for the white house. in the surprise move the former florida governor tapped republican strategist danny diaz as his campaign manager. this after last january's

hiroshimaing of ira operative david cokele who is expected to head the campaign. the exploratory phase has not met expectations. his aggressive fundraising and network of powerful family friends has not kept rivals out of the race. something his opponents acknowledge. >> among the donors he is mic jagger and the beet beatles rolled into one. no one won without at least one of those three. >> that is certainly history. it's an interesting challenge for a number of these other challenges, you look at the media describes yeb bush frequently as the front runner. it becomes an interesting question when you ask, which of those states does he win? >> frankly, i thought jeb was going to suck all the air out of the room and it just hasn't happened. no hit on jeb. no hit on you, jeb.

>> i like him. >> don't you love casey? >> he's funny. >> he is funny. you know ted cruz is doing something, ted cruz is a smart guy because i think most people are now trying to figure out, where discuss jeb win? go see a win in iowa? i don't think there are a lot of people that think he wins there. does he win in new hampshire? does he win in south carolina? so basically ted cruz is saying you can't just be this 800 pound gorilla and lose race after race after race. and so i think it's going to be tough for him. >> that said the one thing he has going for them if there are 20 candidates in there, you got to bush name and everybody else. he holds 20%, he wins. >> he letsz them fight on the side. he raise more money than anybody else. he isn't in the race yet. he gets in on monday. let's go before jeb bush launches the campaign. he is headed overseas. he will spend the next five days

in three countries in europe t. senior white house correspondent kristjansen, what is on governor bush's agenda over there? >> reporter: yeah, a busy day today. he will start with a couple meetings over the next couple day, the centerpiece comes later today, willie when he is giving a speech it's an economic conference, but it's sponsored by chancellor angela merkel's party. this is the rite of passage for candidates. you have to come over to europe. you have to look like you can be presidential. you have to look statesman-like. a good photo op. the second part that scott walker and chris christie learned the hard way, be careful what you say. don't mess up. both of them had their issues within they came over here as we saw with the last republican nominee, when he made some comments about london. having said that jeb bush's folks who clearly have acknowledged that they have only problems in their campaign are hoping this will start them on a new footing.

i just finished talking to the foreign policy spokesperson for angela merkel's party. a couple interesting things ability this. first of all, it's no surprise to hear that he carries sort of the baggage and the good parts of having that family name here as he has in the united states can't get away from it. all of germany loves his dad, he was a big part of the reunification process. they associate him with us coming down at the wall. however, on the other hand they were not happy with his brother who had at one point i think in 2008 less than 5% approval rating here. he's going to have to come in here like he is going around the united states, show he is his own man and he's the one that can lead america at a time of difficulty around the world, willie. >> yeah, germany, poland estonia, the three countries on the agenda kristjanchris jansen in

germany. >> reporter: can i say one more thing? really interesting is angela merkel will be speaking at this conference the president of finland and estonia, nobody would pay to see them. but they're paying the equivalent of about $350 american dollars to see jeb bush and it sold out a thousand people. >> that's absolutely fascinating. on the streets of berlin go up to a random person and say you know what berlin translates into in english in the answer of course, jelly donut. thank you so much chris. we greatly appreciate it. >> so here's the great picture. berlin, or america el and obama. >> presidents just chillin' right there. >> see you know what she is so much more comfortable with him instead of bush. >> well that's not saying much. >> he's not trying to massage her shoulders or anything like

that. see how open she s. a tough east germany lady. obama, he respects people's face. >> he's relaxed. >> he's relaxed. nobody knows they're not getting their hand on each other no. massage. can we start with that story you wouldn't let me? >> no to the latest of a prison break that has a new york community. not just a community an entire state and beyond on edge. the search continues for two convicted murderers on the run after escaping a maximum security state prison in new york. two separate law enforcement source versus told nbc affiliate wptz they believe the get away car came too early or too late or probably e possibly not at all. information that leads the police to believe the escaped convicts were on foot and wptz cites another law enforcement source saying investigators are looking whether a female

employee helped. n nbc miguel almaguer joins us. >> reporter: they are looking into whether they used power tools. the inmates were kept in the a block the so-called honor section of the prison where they may have had fewer restrictions. the two said to be good friends. this as investigators look into the possibility of prison employee, a woman who worked inside the prison may have helped the duo make their daring escape. the international dragnet to catch two killers, widening across the u.s. mexico and canada, where border patrol agents are zeroing in and searching tractor-trailers. police, swat teams and fbi with the largest presence outside the maximum security prison walls. convicts, 34-year-old david sweat and 49-year-old richard matt were discovered missing saturday during a routine cell check. for the first time, we're

hearing the emergency dispatch. >> both subjects escaped from the clinton county correction facility in danemora. unknown direction of travel possibly southbound with a blue ford with a broken bumper. >> governor andrew cuomo retraced tear steps, saying there are indications the prisoners may have had help from the inside. according to news reports, that help may have come from a woman working with the convicts. >> they're interviewing every inmate. they're looking through the locks to see who visited these guys. they're looking through the telephone records to see who these guys called. >> reporter: a source with knowledge of the case say the inmates were in the honor section. the prisoners in side-by-side cells stuffed their bunks with clothes to avoid detection, then used power tools to cut walls in

the steel walls behind their besd, crawling on to a catwalk six stories up they broke through a brick wall two feet thick cutting holes into and out of a 24 hour-inch steam pipe. they shimmied beneath the prison, breaking out of a manhole more than a block away t. convicts leaving behind a racially charged post-it note reading "have a nice day." jeremy getman spent four years at the correctional facility convicted on weapons charges. >> it's a maximum security prison. it's most definitely very tight security and movement as far as when are you allowed out of your cell. you are watched pretty much all the time. >> with more than 250 heavily armed officers the city of dannemora, nicknamed little siberia for its isolation is a fortress. when a 15-mile radius they have four colleges and 24 schools.

>> every noise they hear somebody is here. >> two killers on the run as the desperate search to find them could lead authorities anywhere. as investigators comb through some 300 leads, this morning they concede they are no closer to finding the two convicts. mica. >> minute ago gelmiguel /* /* -- miguel almaguer thank you. >> how do they cut through steel with power tools? >> that takes elaborate planning and only in of the inner workings of the prison to know where the pipe is to know they can cut their way out of the pipes. that was in the works for a long time. >> i can't imagine there wasn't a network of people inside and out assisting them. >> there had to be. >> we'll see. coming up bob "boyhood"ward on the president's incomplete strategy about isis. i want to hear about donald rumsfeld as well. we will be joined by cat can i

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it's 24 hour past the hour. joining us catty kay, michael steele is with us. president obama made news overseas for taking an apparent jab at the supreme court as a decision looms for the latest challenge to obamacare. he said justices were wrong to hear the case which centers on whether it's little to provide subsidies to consumers who buy insurance through the federal marketplace. >> this should be an easy case. frankly, it probably shouldn't have even been taken up and, you know, sense we're going to get a ruling pretty quick, i think it's important for us to go ahead and assume that the supreme court is going to do what most legal scholars who have looked at this would expect them to do. i should mention that if it didn't, congress could fix this

whole thing with a one sentence provision. so, but i'm not going to go into a long speculation anticipating disaster. >> but senator john borasso, the number three republican said that fix whether not take place adding instead of bullying the supreme court the president should spend his time preparing for the reality the court may soon rule against his decision to illegally issue tax penalties and subsidies to americans in two-thirds of the country. as the l.a. times points out, 37 states could be affected. only pennsylvania and delaware currently have back-up plans in place. >> jonathan this is a president that has no problems whacking the supreme court, even though the supreme court with robert's help upheld affordable care act a few years ago. >> yeah the president has lacked the supreme court before. remember during the state of the union address, i believe it was he took a jab at them because of citizens united.

so you know he has no problem being not only commander-in-chief, analyst in chief. it seems as if he goes into this -- let me till how politically and an litically what this is all about. but senator borasso criticizing the president for not getting everyone prepared for what might happen if the supreme court goes against what everyone has said i think is interesting for as long as obamacare has been around the republican party has been trying to defund it dismantle it. get rid of it. also during this time since taking over both branches i'm sorry the house and the senate. they haven't done anything to put in come up with a replaced part of the repeal and replace t. supreme court rules against the administration here and invalidates the exchanges, all [ bleep ] is going to break lose. they won't so much be looking at the president but washington to say what the heck are you going to do about it? >> it's fascinating, the president, you almost wonder

whether he's starting to pick a fight with the supreme court more aggressively because this obviously this is a huge case. also, he's got that immigration order that's coming down the pie fit what i think is more likely than not to be overturned. >> he mentioned in germany as well saying the court shouldn't be taking that on as well. >> isn't that fascinating the president of the united states talking about what cases the supreme court should take and which ones they should not take? >> whilest he's sitting in a foreign capital, you mean? >> i don't know if that's the most diplomatic way to -- >> i think particularly on the obamacare issue the calculation in the white house has always been this will not be overturned, too many people by now have signed up and realized the benefits and would have too much to lose which was jonathan's point, this is not going to go there. is this the president setting a marker preemptively. i still don't go get the sense

the sense the white house thinks this will be overturned in a substantial way. it hasn't been as you said jonathan, up until now. >> let's go to the suburbs of dallas and the town of mckinney, texas, where hundreds gathered last notice to protest the actions of a police officer caught on camera wrestling a teenage girl to the ground and pulling his gun at the party. it's the latest viral video involving a police officer and an unarmed civilian to raise questions about excessive force. some are saying the footage doesn't tell the whole story. here's nbc's janet shandly with more. >> reporter: police dispatch called eight disturbance at the community pool in the dallas suburb of mcken my. what happened next has been wauvend online more than 6 million times. mckinney police corporeal pulling a 15-year-old bikini clad girl to the ground. then pulling his gun on two

other young people. >> i'm done. >> on your face. >> the seven-minute profanity laced video was shot by brandon brooks. >> i didn't get frightened at one point when the officer had pulled his gun out on those kids. it was scary. >> get on the ground. >> i'm not indicting the entire police department because i saw some people doing the right thing. i saw officers actually trying to keep the patz right this guy was just out of control. >> reporter: people who were there say the video doesn't reflect all that went on. >> the neighbors did not call the police because there was a big african person party. security could police because people were fighting and people jumping over the fence and that nature. >> reporter: and a few defend the officer's actions. >> he applies a wrist lock.

at this point this is getting out of control. there is no need for that. >> a use of force expert formally with the los angeles police department. >> are you not look at a w-4 situation. are you looking at a bunch of teenagers at a pool party. >> the officer is on administratively pending an internal investigation. >> when you talk to cops and they talk about use of force and everything, a lots of times you will see somebody with an overcoat and cops will say, any time they move their hands where they can be going to get a gun, they have a right to use a taser. they have a right to use force, they have the right to -- i totally. >> there is logic there. >> i totally support that. >> yeah. >> you don't see that on the video. if somebody moves their hand down. they don't understand why they will be punching somebody that does that. they have a right to do that. if somebody gets a gun, all of a sudden they can shoot everybody. here she was in a bathing suit. this is just outrageous. who trains these cops?

>> well it does really go to the conversation about training without a doubt. but there is also the other element here that i was listening to a lot of video of the neighbors who were relaying the rest of the story and what they had seen and the one thing that kept coming back was, what does a cop do when you are giving instructions to sit down lie down stop what you are doing and they don't heed at it. that's where -- >> if they're teenagers and they're wearing bathing suits, can i tell you what you don't do. you don't pull a gun. >> that's where the training kicks in. it's a similar situation base the -- a situation based in baltimore we saw violence later on as a result of that. the training part of this joe, becomes incredibly important. i note the cops that came in when officers drew his gun. they put their hand on his shoulders like dude put the

gun down we don't need to go there, you can almost sense that from them. so there was an overreaction. there is also that balance of how do you respond and how do the citizens respond? there seems to be more aggression. >> by the way, those two cops willie, did the right thing. they came in they said put it down, then they went chasing after somebody else who was running away. listen the cops if people are using force, pushing cops around they need to take control. the last thing we want to do is let people think they have a right to use force against police officers, but pulling a gun, the excessiveness of it all. you said from the very beginning of this video, the guy. >> lost it. >> was wired. >> i don't know what happened before the video. we heard the description from some witnesses that there were fights at the party and all that, that doesn't excuse what we saw there. if you watch the beginning of the tape. what's available to it. this one officer was hot from the beginning.

he was running back and forth, pushing people's heads down. handcuffing kids sitting on the ground. there was this one officer who was just he was on fire and nobody could get between him and what he was going to do that day. >> oh oh gosh. the. >> the image of that officer on the back of a 14-year-old girl in a bikini is particularly disturbing. >> i can't see another one of these videos. i mean it's been a year of heart break of watching young people, young african-american people caught on videotape being shot being beaten being harassed, all of these things. i mean it's warying. >> body cam, body charges body cams, put body cameras on all of these people. >> coming up new york city police commissioner bill bratton comes out swinging if defence of mayor bill de blasio. why he says the city's crime surge is nothing to worry ability and not related to the

decrease in stop and frisks. keep it right here on "morning joe." . is there such a thing as a sure

thing in business? some say buy gold. others say buy soybeans. i say, buy comcast business internet. unlike internet providers that slow down when traffic picks up, you get speed you can rely on. it's a safe bet. like a gold-plated soybean. reliably fast internet starts at $69.95 a month. comcast business. built for business. . >> yeah, okay. stop. that's true. >> it's ridiculous. they don't understand what that can be. >> because you guys. >> don't say you guys. >> you think it's some sort of medical need. all right. so we've got a couple of must-reads to choose from here.

we have really good ones. >> so does amy holmes. >> i will reed bill bratton, nypd commissioner writes crime surge, not a return to new york city's battle days. it is time for a sense of proportion about the increase in shootings and murders in new york city in the first five months of 2015. while it's true both categories may have risen over the low numbers. the increase is not raging out of control as some local columnists would have it. the arm care criminalalists are vergeing on hysteria with their prediction of impending doom. to suggest it's relatively minor increase has been caused by a mayor de blasio's opposition to reasonable suspicion stops is sa ludicrous misrepresentation, by far the largest and most density in the united states remains

extra ordinarily safe environment. >> hmm. >> i think it remains an extraordinarily safe environment, eight.5 million people that live here. 15 million during the day. you can ride the subway in relative safety nearly anywhere in this city. >> right. >> if the gun numbers keep going up. >> i don't know the gun numbers are going up. they are certainly not finding as many guns on people as they were two years ago. that's due to the decrease of the stop and frisk stuff. >> i can remember when central park seemed like the scariest place you would ever want to be in. >> it still is if you walk through and mike is sitting near a park bench. >> you have to respect bill bratton is trying to make a point about this city. i live here too, i feel it's much safer than it was when i first visited in the early '90s.

>> i think it's admirable for the commissioner to help out his guy. when you look at half the number of stop and frisks and the rates of murder going up there can't be no correlation whatsoever. programs not as high as some people suggested. >> it's all anecdotal. i brought it up on the air. i know you've heard the same thing i heard on the upper west side. other people have heard. it is a different place now than it was six months or a year ago. >> the upper west side? >> the upper west side. it just is people will say it off the air. again it's all anecdotal. but for people that were in new york in the battle days you don't want to give this mayor a year or two years or three years of slack, so i have great respect for the police commissioner. >> stop and frisks were happening. >> mica it's a culture, please

let's not be stupid on twitter and make this all about the upper west side. it is a culture in manhattan from the top of manhattan to lower manhattan and people that live here know exactly what i'm talking about. by the way, that's a lot of liberals downtown uptown. in the bronx, all over manhattan in the five boroughs. >> mike, sadly, the one two fact of life in this. the neighborhoods that were the least safe that were the most dangerous 20 years ago remain the least safe and the most dangerous today by and large. >> look at what's happening in baltimore, all the shootings in baltimore. >> this is the thing,by is the way, when we have there horrific police brutality and video, we sit here we are rightly shocked by it the entire police force is painted with a broad brush,

amy, it's not like people in suburbs that are going to faye costs of the police officers taking a step back and saying okay you guys want to paint us as the enemy? we're not going to stick our neck out anymore. it's not the whitest, richest people in baltimore or new york city that will pay the highest price for this outrage. >> we know that we know if police step back from theseest embattled neighborhoods, who suffer? the people that live there. people facing game criminalality on the upswing on the rise the mothers worried their sons will join up and end up in jail somewhere. so clearly the communities most affected are the communities that most need intervention but i got to say, i respect what bill bratton is saying i respect him as police commissioner. i do remember when new york city was a place when i would walk down the street with my parents. it was like those movies from the '70s. you couldn't believe it. it's not that place. i get it.

>> i was actually here in the '70s. >> it's scary. >> it was scary in the ''80s. it was scary in the late ''80s and it was scary in the early '90s in some places but make no mistake of it bill bratton and mayor deblasio are not going to be judged by how the streets look in 2015 compared to how they look in 1975. they're going to be judged by how the streets are in 2015 '16 and '17 and how they were when bloomberg was mayor and when guiliani was mayor. so let's just stop talking about the battle days if you are bratton who i love or if you are de blasio you have been given and extraordinarily safe huge metropolitan city. >> it still remains a part of the problem. you have to address it, is the way crime is covered in this

city. especially in this paper if a guy is attacking people it's on the front page. >> it was like that when guiliani was there and bloomberg was there. >> if a 15-year-old or 16-year-old young man or young woman is shot to death in a school playgrounds in some parts of the bronx or block lynn. go find it. it just lends to oh an epidemic of crime in the city. >> i totally agree with you. that's how it was when bloomberg was mayor. i'm just saying they're going to be compared to how things were in 2012 and not 1992. >> it's a good conversation. >> we are all invested in this but i guarantee you, if things turn south, it will be everybody. >> there is some fine balance t.

stop and frisk policing type of policing led to the problems we are looking at on videos here. one could argue. i know this isn't igniting another conversation. whole count. up next she is leading scotland's independent streak. nicholas sturgeon weighs in on how to make the u.k. a little less united. keeper here on "morning joe." .

we have so much to offer, we got great whiskey, great scenery, wonderful cities great comediennes of our own, we can always had another one. >> i'm happy to go there. stop pitching me on scotland. let me pitch you on america. i know you got a little jones for getting out of this united kingdom. we went through a similar process. >> you were more successful. although i don't think we'll try to do it your way. >> let me tell you what they hate. they hate when you throw their

stuff into the water. >> that's where we went wrong. >> have you tried that? >> joining us now the "new york times" calls her one of the most powerful players in british politics, the first minister of scotland nicole la sturgeon her first trip to the united states. >> first minister. >> mad dam. >> just stunning stunning results that seem to come out of nowhere the last week. i know that it takes years and years to build something up like that. it seems like the media caught attention the last week and said, oh my god, something is happening. >> all of a sudden the smp was going to have a stunning result in the u.k. general election. it took everybody by surprise how amazing the results. >> how did that happen? >> as you know we had the referendum last year on whether or not scotland should become an independent country. they were against becoming an independent country. i think after that, people

thought, well,owe're still a part of the united kingdom. we must have a stronger more powerful voice in the united kingdom. that's why they give us a much louder voice so sto scotland has a much bigger profile not only at home but international as well. >> there are a number since the u.k. election saying does that mean we will see an independent scotland in our lifetime? >> the election doesn't mean that. my gut says we will see an independent scotland in our lifetimes, but it's not going to happen just because i or my party wants it to happen. it will only happen if a majority of people in scotland want that. in the meantime we are determined to make scotland as successful as we can be. my message in the united states says we are opened for business. scotland is investing into working, where successful modern democracy and, you know people watching went to vis et or to invest there, they're more than

welcome. >> how do you view miss first minister, the relationship between scotland and the united states? how do scotts view it generally? >> the united states is one of the biggest investors. scotland does well and much of that comes from the united states so that's a very important economic relationship. but you know there are many many people of scottish dissent living in the united states. i think something like 10 million climb to have a living to scotland. there are a lot of people living in scotland. there are family links and cultural links as well. they're really important to us. >> obviously the most powerful female politician in the united kingdom since market thatcher. i'm sure you have a big portrait of ler in your office?

massive, massive. i only say that because it seems like everybody north of london. >> i was brought up to think you shouldn't speeg ill of those no longer with us. market thatcher was a big motivation for me to get into politics. but to what much of what she stood for. >> it says sturgeon gets annual image makeover. >>. >> it's called a soft power look makeover. what is this? >> it's rubbish. >> it's total rubbish. >> what did they say? what happened? who says that in this day and age? what? >> i got older. that's all that happened. >> somebody said something? >> you know it's late. it's here rather than go leave. scottish politics u.k. politics is not really like american

politics in this respect. you know not everybody is absolutely obsessed with not seeing everything in the united states is obsessed with the image. but i've nod had a deliberate image makeover. not even to come on "morning joe." >> but we're insulted now. all right. fine. >> willie and i want to know your secrets. at least i want to know. >> we're going to bring "morning joe" to scotland? . >> is that a promise? >> very. >> you know we have 74 across the world. >> excellent. congratulations. >> "morning joe" will be right back.

you know our new rope has actually passed all the tests. we're ready to start with production. ok, are you doing test markets like last time? uh, no we're going to roll out globally. ok. we'll start working on some financing options right away. thanks, joe. oh, yeah. it's a game-changer for the rock-climbing industry. this is one strong rope! huh joe? oh, yeah it's incredible! how you doing team? jeff you good? [jeff] i think i dropped my keys. [announcer] you work hard to build your company. wells fargo will work right alongside you, bringing the expertise your company needs to move forward. wells fargo. together we'll go far.

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still ahead on "morning joe," the latest in the fallout from president obama saying the uss lacks a complete strategy when it comes to the iraqis taking on isis. bob woodward will be our guest. plus when it comes to jailhouse contraband power tools certainly would make the list. how do two escaped convicts break out from a maximum security prison. we will talk to a leading expert on prisons ahead. much more "morning joe" when we come back.

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so willie apple, boy, they're going to change music again with a streaming bed, you know. >> taking on spotify. >> taking on spotify. >> that will be big news jane we were just talking beforehand turkey, boy, big elections and a huge loss. >> they're the ones. >> couldn't happen to a nicer guy. a guy that was trying to move turkey to his own strange totalitarianism. it's history. >> they take these great gambits, sometimes they lose right? the whole point of this was for him to make a big power grab and rewrite the constitution so that

he had essentially dictatorial power and they said, none of it. pinot shea made the same mistake in 1988. >> gene michael steele is with us as well. catty here. >> who is the great picture here? >> i love it. this shows you when you give a german lady her space. are you not massage her shoulders. look how open she is. she is giving obama -- >> sound of music effect. >> yes. >> those two get along well. >> i do. >> i thought she is hands down his favorite european leader. >> i thought she didn't like him because he was listening in on her cell phone calls. >> they were good about that. >> respect. >> a spat. >> just a spat. >> i guess from east germany, willie you do the phone call.

>> the neighbors. >> let's start with this crazy prison break. >> oh really. canvass time. thank you so much grand pubah. we begin this hour. >> you keep talking that way. >> the latest on that new york state prison break. how those inmates vanished in the middle of the night. two convicted murders were on the run after escaping a maximum state prison in dannemora, new york. miguel. >> reporter: mica, good morning. we are learning more about those inmates who used power tools to escape the prison behind me. we learned they were kept in the a block the so-called honor section of the prison. the two said to be good friends. this as investigators look into the possibility of prison employee, a woman who worked inside the prison may have helped the duo make their escape. the international dragnet to

catch two killers. border patrol agents are zeroing in searching tractor-trailers. police, swat teams and the fbi with the largest presence outside the maximum security prison walls. convicts 34-year-old david sweat and 49-year-old richard matt were discovered missing saturday during a routine cell check. for the first time, we're hearing the emergency dispatch. >> both subjects escaped from the clinton county correction facility if dannemora. unknown direction of travel possibly southbound on 87 in a dark blue honda or a ford with a broken rear bumper. >> reporter: governor andrew cuomo retraced their steps, saying there are indications the prisoners may have had help from the inside. according to news reports, that help may have come from a woman working with the convicts. >> they're interviewing every inmate.

they're looking through the locks to see who visited these guys. they're looking through the telephone records to see who these guys called. >> reporter: a source with knowledge say the convicts were in the honor section of the prison, where there is fewer restrictions on their movements. authorities say the prisoners in side-by-side cells stuffed their bunks with clothes to avoid detection, ten used power tools to cut holes through the steel walls behind their beds crawling on to a catwalk six stories up broke through a wall two feet thick cutting holes into and out of a 24 hour inch steam pipe they shimmied beneath the prison breaking out a manhole more than a block away. convicts leaving behind a racially charged post-it note reading, "have a nice day." jeremy getton was convicted on weapons charges. >> it's a maximum security prison. so it's most definitely very tight security. very tight movement as far as when you are allowed out of your

cell. are you watched pretty much all the time. >> reporter: with more than 250 heavily-armed officer, scouring form and forest land the city of dannemora, nicknamed little siberia for it's isolation, a fortress. within a 15-mile radius there are four colleges and 24 schools. >> they have a hard time sleeping at night. they're afraid of every little noise they hear, somebody is here. >> reporter: two killers on the run, as the desperate search to find them could lead authorities anywhere. as investigators comb through some 300 leads this morning they concede they are no closer to finding the two convicts. >> miguel almaguer. thank you very much. womenly. >> prison security consultant kevin tomez. the question everyone wants to know, how could this have happened, how could they secure

power tools and cut through steel in the middle of the night without anyone hearing them or catching them? >> i believe it's a foregone conclusion they had outside help. whether it was outside help from an employee or outside help from the contractors remains to be seen. i'm not so sure they cut through that wall during the night. it seemed like a lot of labor-intensive wok for two cells by the way side-by-side. they could have done it when the cell block was empty. people were out in the yard. there was nobody in the cell block to hear it. then they concealed it until it was time to leave. so i think we're speculating they did it at night. >> and same goes for that big steam pipe. they cut that at the same time you suspect? >> well, i don't believe so. i think they would have saved that for last. their primary goal would have been to get out of the cell first and down into the bows of the prison then work on the pipe while they were down there. >> i guess what i'm saying is with all that cutting of metal,

at some point someone would have been in the area. it's hard to believe no one heard it and perhaps didn't turn their back to it? >> i believe there was a serious lapse in security. the fact that they were even able to get the tools into their cell blocks is going to cross my brow. >> an assumption that they did it maybe it was done for them while they were out? >> anything is possible. >> yeah it is but i don't think that anyone could have cut that hole in the cell block except them. it would have had to they would have had to have done it themselves. i'm not quite sure how they did one cell one went over and cut the other one out or they had two tools, which compounds the mystery on how they got these tools into the cell. >> is it. go ahead, catty. >> what do you think happened once they left the prison complex, how much support do you think they must have had from the outside and what kind of form do you think that support would have taken? >> well to get to this plan obviously was well thought out

and well executed with the, with unbelievable technical support in the tools. i find it hard to believe they got through the pipe and the man home and there wasn't a vehicle waiting for them. they were too well planned and too well thought out not to have an escape route plan. >> if you look at what these guys were in jail for. these are bad, bad men. what would be your first concern right now? we are already three day noose this as law enforcement on the outside? >> well, i heard from a ours the honor block that they were housed in also let them keep street clothes in their cell block. i'm a little puzzled why somebody serving a life term for killing a law enforcement officer would be in an honor block with civilian clothes. i'm sure governor cuomo will be looking into that as well. >> thank you very much greatly. we appreciate that. can you believe a guy that kills a cop is serving a life sentence

is in the honor when of whatever they calm it and has civilian clothes? >> yeah. it's still sort of impossible to get into a maximum security prison. they had a lot of help. to hear of one person? >> even knowing the make-up of the prison you have to have a map somehow. >> unless you know that pipe led. >> how incredible. all right. moving on to other news president obama is back home washington is commenting about the g7 fight against isis. >> we want to get more iraqi security forces trained, fresh, well ekripd and focused. when a finalized plan is presented to me by the pentagon then i will share it with the american people. it's not we don't yet have a a complete strategy because it

requires commitments on the part of the iraqis as well about how recruitment takes place, how that training takes place. so the details of that are not yet worked out. >> the pentagon later said those comments were only referring the training and equipping of iraqi forces. but it did not help matters that president obama was also criticized for making a similar remark nine months ago about fighting isis in syria. >> i don't want to put the cart before the horse. we don't have a strategy yet. i think what i've seen in some of the news reports suggests that folks were git getting a little further ahead of where we're at than we currently are. but there is no point in me asking for action on the part of congress before i know exactly what it is that is going to require us to get the job down. >> a long lest of comments the president would like to take back starting with the 2012

campaign. he basic ally did his version of iraq in its death throws. here it was al qaeda is beaten obliterated. we have beaten the terrorists and then of course the infamous j.v. team they're a j.v. team. then a couple months later, well you can put a kobe bryant jersey on the j.v. team. they're still a j.v. team. now he said we don't have a complete strategy. your take. >> well look you know he said this twice, he normally didn't repeat the exact same club or accidental revelation of the truth. in fact there wasn't a strategy then beyond what we are doing. there isn't a strategy. >> why not? >> because he does not want to do what lindsey graham wants to

do he does not want to put 10,000. >> there are a thousand options between what not having a strategy and what lindsey graham. >> what are the oranges what is one viable option he has chosen is essentially muddle through with this plan that nobody thinks is going to work to prae the iraqi army use airstrikes to keep isis from taking over the whole country. >> are you saying there is no option? >> try to birth some sort of political reconciliation. >> it won't work. >> you know it won't work. >> i don't think that's going to work i also don't think lindsey graham's plan will work. >> that's an all or nothing approach and the catty the kurds. we can be much more muscular supporting the kurds. >> right. >> we can demand much more of

our sunni allies in return for much more american help. there is so many things we can do other than sending in 50,000 u.s. troops. >> the policy at the moept is to go entirely through the iraqi government. whether it's arming the kurds or the sunni tribes. in the west of the country, the strategy is that you go through the iraqi government. you are trying to build as gene said a cohesive iraqi government that represents the whole country. now you are going outside that independently arming the coast. >> the sunnis will never fight to the death for a centralized shiite state that is heavily influenced by iran. >> that is a failed option from the start. >> some of them will do bus they have been so appalled by what islamic state has done to them and to their fellow sunnis that they are prepared to go with the devil they know against the devil theycarter last week

if vehicle. he was saying one thing very striking was america can defeat islamic state. it can't keep them defeated. so what's the option? you go in with 10,000 forces you defeat islamic state. and then what? then do you stay for another generation? that's what it will take. we have no desire to do that here. >> of course there is how it all began, meanwhile, former defense secretary donald rumsfeld is making a notable admission about the iraq war. rumsfeld served under president bush from 2001 to 26. tells the british newspaper "the time's" the 43rd president was wrong to try to build a democracy in iraq. he says in part quote this i'm not one who thinks our particular template of democracy appropriate for other countries at every moment of their histories the idea that we could fashion a democracy in iraq seemed to me unrealistic. i was concerned about it when i first heard those words. >> willie we will have bob

woodward on in a emt mo. bob wrote four books about the iraq war. so we will be able to test that one out. i guess rumsfeld was skeptical from the start and said it much earlier than this about the idea of building wilsonian democracy in iraq. >> i wonder about the timing the protests right now after all these years after the fact. he thought going into iraq was a good idea. if it wasn't. what was his plan? >> it was. it points back to the decision whether to go in. it seems like the architect, himself, had issues the my point. he seems to be a strong willed person that speaks his mind.

>> what are we going to do with this country? >> it's the same relevant question. the battle lines were rumsfeld on one side and collin powell and conde on the other side it wasn't until rumsfeld was pushed out and conde came in. >> michael steele jump in. >> i think to willie's point about the timeing on this if you think of what unfolds within the republican effort to become president, one of those individuals, bush has struggled with it. rubio and others have taken very strong positions. this gives some middle ground for those candidates. it gives them a little wiggle room so they don't have to necessarily take such a hard line but also understanding and sort of speak to this idea about how we got in and just this whole idea of nation building. so i think this also rumsfeld

is giving some cover potentially to some candidates downstream. we'll see. but i think it opens up that opportunity. >> all right. in speaking of republican candidates. upstream and downstream and in between, everybody is talking about jeb bush and the huge shakeup that apparently happened at the top of hiso. we will talk about that in just a machine. michael steele stay there. rnc. gene, thank you, what are you writing about today? >> what am i writing ability today? i'm writing ability hillary clinton actually. >> for or against? >> well, i mean. >> i think in this campaign she is doing fairly well actually. i think we learn a lot about her campaign last week with her voting rights statements, she really went after that issue. she's going to try to editorize the obama coalition and

meanwhile her potential opponents are trying to decide who gets to be in the top ten to be in the debate. >> the top ten. >> exactly. >> so if i was make thinking i'm hillary clinton's campaign manager. >> a pretty food position. all right. chief, thank you. coming up on "morning joe," state department spokesman john kirby and the washington post's bob woodward weigh in on the strategy to beat isis namely whether we have one in the first place, donald rumsfeld's admission on the iraq war. dennis hastert comes out of hiding for his first court appearance. we will tell you about the big legal move he just made. you are watching "morning joe." >> that story keeps getting uglier. t or more on car insurance. everybody knows that. well, did you know genies can be really literal? no.

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state department john kirby, admiral, it's great to see you again. >> it's good to see you, joe. >> we love you so much. we will pester you with willie mean objections. bob you wrote like 87 books on iraq. i read them all and the war making decisions from the start of the iraq war to the end of the iraq war done rum field, when you were reporting in real time, was done rumsfeld expressing his concerns in building a democracy in iraq in 2003, 2004? >> he was the guy briefing about not only are we going to bring democracy to iraq, but it will be the model for the middle east. so this was mindset that came from problem of as bush said

this isn't going to be the era of terrorism. it's going to be the era of democracy and liberty. >> so you were skeptical of the comments out this morning? >> if you look at rumsfeld's memoir and what the record is and things he said on the record in hours of interviews with me often months after the events it's just a total contradiction. so it's it's something if you put the statements together and so forth, then as mica was saying he is indeed one of the architects of the war. he was the person saying to the president, look, this is going to be a lot easier than we think and in the end, they were literally saying to the president. this is just going to take a couple of weeks. we are now 12 years after the invasion and we still label iraq

unsolved. >> heysh bob, it's willie. why do you think rumsfeld is raising these protests now? is this about protecting his own legacy or the narrative or something else? >> no he's i guess in london and somebody asked him some questions and he will give answers. but again, this was the man stoking the fires for going into iraq on the day of 9-11. he was the chief spokesman and annualtator for, we don't just do afghanistan, where bin ladin was, but we're going to do iraq and he was pushing it and kind of sandpaper the whole war plan down. so president bush and others said, oh this is something we will snap off. >> admiral, let's go and leave the battle days of iraq in 2003

behind us. instead, talk about the battle days of 2015. we have enough now. al qaeda and terrorism was declared beaten by the president in 2012 for president 2013. i think he talked about the j.v. team. he talked about you can put a kobe bryant jersey on a j.v. team. last year he said we don't have a strategy yet on isis. in '15, he said yesterday, we don't have a complete strategy yet. when are we going to get a strategy against isis? >> actually. we have a strategy t. president was referring to a specific plan to improve the training and eking of iraqi sources. absolutely. we have a strategy. >> what is it? >> back to my old days at the pentagon, strategy has three things, ends ways and means,

the ends are very clear. we said this all along the goal is to degrade and defeast isil. the ways we will do that are through obviously airstrikes, but are you going to we have to train and equip iraqi security forces, this is their fight oak. we have to stem the three of foreign fighters. more than 30 countries are taking legal and administrative action to try to do that. of course we have as to work with the prime minister to build a government more inclusive and representative of all iraqis. in the end, we've talked about this before joe the real goal here is good governance in iraq and sir why to remove the conditions by which a group can fester. the means are financial, military economic. we are putting preshl on isil. we are working at that. >> mike barnacle. >> admiral, western you were across the river in your uniform and today in your nice suit and

tie, you continue to explain sortties above iraq and sortties above syria. so i would ask you, do you think bombing is a strategy or now a tool of war? >> it is as i describe it's a great question by the way. one facet of strategy. it's not just military. the other thing we have been saying is airstrikes alone are never going to be enough to defeat this group. yes we conducted thousands of them. we know we have taken thousands and thousands off the battlefield as well as some of their equipment. they still have the ability to recruit and retain and forces and to move them into the fight. that's what we have to get at. you can't just do that for air power alone. >> the defense secretary is still saying we have the perfect

strategy as you suggested there. at some point the execution becomes so difficult as impossible that you have to start rethinking what your strategy is. are we near that point now? baring 20,000 american forces being sent into iraq retakeing mosul looks very difficult. holding the country together looks very difficult. at what point do you start to say this strategy is flawed? >> well katty, any good strategy is constantly reevaluated. going back to my former life and certainly at the state department i seen it first hand every day we look at the strategy from its execution. we believe it's sound. we look at it every single di and make adjustments on the ground. one of the things the president and commander-in-chief was referring to is this element about training and equipping competent iraqi forces there is perhaps room for improvement

there we still believe you grotto get those guys competent on the battlefield, more competent. maybe the way we are going about that needs to be changed a bit. >> bob, is the united states with respect to the admiral and the president and to the white house, is the united states diluted to think that there can be a representative coalition government in iraq and that there can be a strong enough iraqi army to deficit isis? >> and clearly there are problems with that. but i think we need to step back a little bit and say what's going on here? this was a war started by president bush in 2003 with a very aggressive posture. we now have a new president and have had obama as president for a long time and there is a different theory of the case. and let's face it obama does not like war. he has an approach i guess i would call it kind of that the united states should be the

humble superpower, that we're not going to send masses of troops in. we're not going to have a hair trigger. if you think about that that's wise in many ways but the problem here is the islamic state is a giant problem and we are using a little bombing and few troops to achieve the defeat to destroy this group as the president says is a strategy it's going to take something different or something more. >> bob, have you spoken you, obviously, speak to so many people in walk. are you wired. we certainly spec to a lot of people too. i have yet to speak to any foreign policy analyst, on or off the air that says that this president right now is a coherent workable strategy against isis? >> kirby is making a point.

there is a strategy. the question is can they do the job? >> an effective strategy. >> yeah. >> you heard people say? >> no no look when you adopt the mantle of the humble super power as we have. there may be a lot of wis come in that. you are not going to go around and defeat movements like the islamic state. it just can't be done with this level of force. maybe you can be lucky some days but anyone you talk to any military person anybody that has thought this true you just can't get there. that i think joe you are making a good point. do you do nothing or do you go all in as some people are advocating? clearly, we're not going to go all in. but is there some middle ground? is there some way to adjust that? i don't see those discussions taking place. >> finding the middle ground i

think is always the challenge. john kirby, do you agree, what would the middle ground be? >> i don't think i'd describe it as a middle ground. with the way forward, it has to be international and more than just military. i would like to take a little issue. i give great respect for bob, obviously. i think, first of all, i don't think you want your commander in chief to like war. war is a serious business that a nation has to undertake. it's deadly it's legal, it's messy. the other thing is this will take some time. could you go all in? absolutely. katty said then you on it. i don't think it's anybody's interest. this has to be owned be i the iraqis. yes, an inclusive government is new territory for them. the prime minister is making the right decisions. we are committed to help in that regard. good governance is the way the

get at this problem long term t. last thing, even if we were talking about this from a mill ter perspective. let's say we were. it's going to take three to five years. it will take a while. it will not be solved overnight. all of us need strategic patience as we work our way through it. >> bob woodward thank you so much. we value your insights of course john kirby the best that ever was. we love you. you are great. it's great to see you again. >> patience. >> love you, too. >> that was interesting, strategic nations. >> that sounds like a title to one of my dad's books. >> it's time we get real. i mean again, i would go back to 2009 when they were talking about tripling the number of troops in afghanistan. we kept asking everybody why. they never talked about afghanistan. they talked ability pakistan we said all around the table, it's a failed strategy. you shouldn't triple the number of troops there. balls we're just not going to achieve anything in that

country. we have to get real about iraq. if we want to defeat isis, if we want to defeat isis we're not going to do it by retraining troops that are miserable and melted in '91, melted in 2003. melted in 2014. we're going to have to do more than that. it doesn't mean we have to go to war. we have to find middle ground. it will take more than saying i hate war. we will muddle through and do a lot of false choices. it's a failed strategy to say we will train the iraqis. i think that's a failed failed strategy. >> but it's also much more than iraq now. it's about turkey iran the stability of the middle east. if anybody running for president thinks we can sit being and do nothing. >> of course it is. we will be there for a very long time. just like we're still in cre why. just like we're still in germany. we will be there a very very

long time. >> up next on "morning joe," the big campaign shakeup for jeb bush days before he's expected to launch his campaign for 2016. is it a sign that things are not going as planned? we'll be right back. song: rachel platten "fight song" ♪ two million, four hundred thirty-four thousand three hundred eleven people in this city. and only one me. ♪ i'll take those odds. ♪ be unstoppable. the all-new 2015 ford edge. the pursuit of healthier. it begins from the second we're born. after all, healthier doesn't happen all by itself. it needs to be earned... every day... using wellness to keep away illness... and believing that a single life can be made better by millions of others.

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is shaking up his campaign for the white house. in a surprise move they tapped danny diaz as his campaign manager. this after january's hiring operative david cokele expected to head the campaign. the decision suggests that bush's exploratory phase has not met expectations. his aggressive fundraising and network of powerful family friends has not kept rivals out of the race him something his opponents are looking at. >> among the donors he is mick jager and the beatles in one. if you look historically since world war ii no one has won the nomination without winning one of those first three. >> that has certainly been history. i think it's an interesting chal for a number of the other candidates. the media describes jeb bush interestingly as a front runner. it's interesting when you ask, which of those states does he

win? >> frankly, i thought jeb was going to suck all the air out of the room and it just hasn't happened. no hit on jeb, no hit on you, jeb. >> listen i never thought that ted cruz would be a transition to the rolling stones but big things happening today, mike barnacle, the tour a rerelease of sticky fingers with a certain -- >> eric clapton joined the terms, that's the big news of the day. michael steele going from music to politics an article a couple weeks ago made me laugh, headlines, who also afraid of jeb bush? apparently nobody right now. this is more chaos. >> i don't read it so much as chaos. for one real simple reason. jepp has an unannounced campaign. all of this is happening before he's announced for president.

so i can see if this were six weeks after he'd announced. then you are getting into the zone. i think this is a good thing for jeb at this point. i think that danny diaz who is a street fighter, he brings us a high level of energy to this campaign. he's going to have a few direction of focus, wants his launch. i think jeb sort of fixed out early on joe, early enough that this isn't going quite the way they thought and he needed to shake up now rather than six months into the summer. >> by the way, he still has david that knows iowa better than anybody else and you know he's still got to be the favorite. jeb still got to be. he may not be american pharoah three to five? >> isn't this what happened to john mccain's campaign in 2007 when he first ran?

>> actually things went a lot worse. john mccain went through all of his money, last r lost all of his staff. this is all peopleture. i think the biggest thing here is jeb wanted to crowd everybody out of the field. that hasn't happened. i tell you what the last thing jeb wants is marco vs. jeb or walker vs. jeb or cruz vs. jeb. jeb wants 19 20 people in the field. they cut up the votes, jeb walks in. >> coming umm, the issue that's bringing together a new york democrat and a texas republican. representatives carolyn maloney and pete session, putting politics aside for something that affects millions of americans. we'll be right back. .

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joining us now, i thought there was going to be an all out brul on the set. democratic congress woman from new york and pete sessions from texas. >> the congressman supports hillary clinton d. congressman wants the irs to investigate hillary clinton. >> so let's. >> you guys posed together for a very very mobile cause, tell us about it. >> we joined forces to raise money for breast cancer research. it is the number two killer of women. 40,000 women a year die of breast cancer and we're going to create a coin that will not cost the taxpayers one cent and raise up to possibly $8 million for two extremely worthyoone in new york, one in texas. >> susan komen, dallas texas, almost a billion dollars worth of research on breast cancer. we can turn the corner. with ebelieve working together gives them more money and a focus for the american people to

know that congress does care about breast cancer research. >> and the breast cancer research foundation here in new york that has raised $58 million last year for breast cancer research and has a very less than a dollar of every dollar raised is spent on any type of administration, it all goes into research. >> what brought both of to you the cause, was it personal politics, science? >> it's really the right this inc. to do. this is a killer of people. 1400 400 men a year die of cancer. susan komen has been an amazing foundation. you watch them run all through the streets of america. they are talking about a cause, a mission and a purpose. 23 are working together to get congress to do the same thing. >> so it's frustrating, still, congress woman, when you read one study after another. >> one in eight. >> mammograms work. mammograms don't work. you try something else. one week you read something.

we still with all of the research and all of the money we still don't know the best way forward detection is improving and the coin will raise awareness so more people will go to their doctors over lumps and suspicions in their health and it's between us and a cure is money. the federal government supplies a great deal hundreds of millions through the national institute of health. >> how is the funding on nih right now? is it pretty steady pretty solid? >> funding on nih is like the rest of government. what we're doing is we flatten that out, and we flatten that out because we were borrowing too much money. we've got to do the right thing. >> if there's a place you should invest it's research. >> let me answer your question. the bottom line is paying attention to physicians and a woman seeing her physician and following that advice is the best thing that we can do. and we need to empower more doctors and more women to ask questions and good research. and we care about making not

just the cure available but for every woman in the world. >> do you have a call to action for the audience? what can people do? >> they can encourage their members of congress. we have 300 that have signed on to our bill. we need more. make sure that the members of congress have signed on to the breast cancer research commemorative coin for bracf. >> what's on the coin? >> a competition. we're going to have a competition. >> nationwide competition. >> for the best design. we're going to design it and bring a coin back to both of you. working together we're going to pass this coin raise money for breast cancer research and find a cure. >> congresswoman carolyn maloney, and congressman pete sessions. >> can we invite you back when you fight each other? >> we do that enough. >> it's not personal. we do that on the floor. >> we just want to do well enough to get invited back and then we'll create a fight. >> you're going to come back. we go way back.

>> i know you do. >> he was leading edge then and he is now. we watch him from the house gym morning, every morning, and you, too. >> you don't cover half the tv. >> democrats watch, too, they love you. >> don't say that to him. it's all right. >> you know what they say. they look up and go and to think that i used to work with that jerk. >> they do not say that. >> he would be the chairman of the armed services committee. mac thornberry is now. joe scar bowo was a cool fun guy, but cares about what i'm wearing today. >> and i think that makes america feel a lot safer about the decisions i have made over the past two years. thank you guys so much. a great idea. >> still ahead -- >> on to passage. it was quite a scene in ohio. hundreds of piglets being plucked -- i want to have one --

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coming up at the top of the hour critics bounce after president obama says the peptgone is still working on a strategy to defeat isis but are his words being taken out of context? >> plus why donald rumsfeld

said president george w. bush was dead wrong about the iraq war. >> and the search continues for the two inmates who escaped a prison in new york. >> how did they do that? >> incredible. there are new details about how they vanished without a trace. we'll be right back. surprised? in fact, america is now the world's number one natural gas producer... and we could soon become number one in oil. because hydraulic fracturing technology is safely recovering lots more oil and natural gas. supporting millions of new jobs. billions in tax revenue... and a new century of american energy security. the new energy superpower? it's red, white and blue. log on to learn more. ♪ there we go.

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problems in ways different you new solutions find. ♪ ♪ gmood morning, everyone, the top of the hour. >> it is the top of the hour. this prison break is crazy. >> yes it is. it's why we're starting with it. >> no we're not. willie and i had actually done

this in turkey in '78, the prison board is a little different. >> i want to start with it. >> i still have a lot of questions about this. >> there could be a network inside. >> no one heard the power tools? the cutting metal in the middle of the night? >> come on. they squeezed through a pipe? really? >> these guys are crazy. >> they're out there and they're incredibly dangerous. >> you know who else is crazy dangerous? >> who's that? >> isis. >> yeah. >> what is this? what is this? oh, we got an animation. >> alex explain to joe. this is -- this is like hard to even imagine that it was carried out. and it happened. >> look at that. >> look at the pipe but they cut through -- there are several things they had to cut through, and then the manhole cover itself was chained closed on the inside. how did they get out? it's like houdini. i'm serious.

>> come on. somebody's on the inside. >> i'm going there. is miguel available? >> you hear the plane is still missing, too? the malaysian plane? >> it's different. >> no. >> it's a fascinating story. >> so we have the justices rejecting the passport law issue, siding with the white house. i think that's probably pretty significant. >> rumsfeld saying things you might want to hear. >> a raid on isis. what about turkey huh? that election crazy. >> jub bush campaign shake-up. >> i'm not one that things our template of democracy is appropriate for every country at every moment of their histories. the idea we can fashion a democracy in iraq seemed to me unrealistic. >> that's great. >> i was concerned about it when i first heard those words. >> that's donald rumsfeld

talking. fascinating. >> we begin with president obama, back home at the white house this morning, but washington still buzzing about comments he made at the g-7 summit about the fight against isis. >> we want to get more iraqi security forces trained, fresh, well equipped, and focused. when a finalized plan is presented to me by the pentagon then i will share it with the americans people. it's not -- we don't yet have a complete strategy because it requires commitments on the part of the iraqis as well. about how recruitment takes place, how the training takes place. so the details of that are not yet worked out. >> the pentagon said the comments were only related to the trains and equipping of iraqi soldiers, but it didn't help president obama was criticized for making a similar remark six months ago. >> i don't want to put the cart

before the horse. we don't have a strategy yet. i think what i have seen in some of the news reports suggests that folks are getting a little further ahead of where we're at than we currently are, but there's no point in me asking for action on the part of congress before i know exactly what it is that is going to be required for us to get the job done. >> willie geist, you helped to mastermind the plan for d-day. >> operation overlord. >> a good one, too. >> thank you. >> you obviously understand the importance of having a guy plan when you're fighting the enemy. >> i think it's remarkable to hear him say it we don't have a complete strategy. >> in 2014 and again in 2015. >> then he went on to talk about how the iraqi army isn't prepared. we have enough soldiers to do the training get the army up to tooto

speed, so we can fight isis, but he said when ash carter got in trouble for saying the iraqis weren't up to task. >> everybody over there, i always say dexter because he's been there from the beginning. he was in afghanistan before afghanistan was the center of american foreign policy. everybody says the same thing. iraqi forces can't be trained to beat isis. there is no iraqi forces. as dexter says everybody that he talks to in iraq is something else. they're not iraqi. they're sunnis or shia from a tribe or they're this or that. they're never going to be a unified army. talking about that that's a total cop-out, not talking about this president. republicans say it on the campaign trail. everybody that says well what we need to do is train the iraqi army. that's a cop-out. it's a cop-out because, again, iraq is not iraq. now, the kurds will fight for what they believe is kurdistan.

but the sunnis who basically made up the backbone of osama bin laden -- saddam hussein's army will never fight for a centralized government that is run in part by the iranians will they? >> i think it's a little more complex than that. that's on the surface of it a key factor but keep in mind as you mentioned for decades, the iraqi national identity was pretty much dominated by saddam hussein, and they were made up of sunnis. in the wake of the 2003 invasion, that was upended. they're trying to bring the country back with a cohesive national identity. that's harder than anyone would have predicted. you also have the iranians who have their interests. that's complicating matters. you're right. in short, people are not fighting for a national identity. they're fighting for their group interests. >> that's kind of what i said. so do you say it was more

complicated than what i said just to make you look smart and me stupid? i'm just curious. then you agreed with me. >> i could never look smarter than you joe. >> thank you. hold on. >> bye-bye. >> no hold on a second. >> i guess what i was trying to say is it's gnaw just times where there's a convunjergence of interests and sometimes it's not just about sunnis and shias. you have a big part of the iraqi government that are shia but why aren't the shias fighting? it's not purely about -- >> why is that? >> i think because you have right now the religious aspect of many of these leaders, including, you know the iranian interests in the country, that are making it difficult for the national army to emerge as a single fighting force. and that's why i was saying that it's not purely along sectarian lines. it's wherever there's a sunni/shia divide.

in some cases there's even shia/shia divides. >> there's a shia/shia divide, there's a sunni/sunni divide. it is chaos, and you've got shia that don't want to be an extension of the iranians. you have moderate sunnis that would actually like to push back isis, but they're not going to push back isis if it just helps iranian backed shia militia take over their towns. it's total chaos. >> and totally definitely a way to make you down a notch intellectually. >> i can do that on my own. the sniffing glue thing did not enhance my performance. >> donald rumsfeld he made that notable admission about the iraq war, which i read at the top. >> you know what i noticed. mika willie and me we have -- mika and i have to stop calling each other. last week we were the green

meanies. >> right. >> now its orange rush. >> i like this better. >> did i not look like tony soprano in the green thing? it all bunched up. i walk around and it all bunches up. >> you just don't want me to talk about donald rumsfeld. >> this is fascinating. i just killed rumsfeld for a lot of things he did, but you know rumsfeld actually did say to so many people in the beginning, we won the war. let's get out, guys. you know but everybody was saying, if you broke it you own it. but rumsfeld was like we're not occupiers. let's do what we do and then get out. >> a lot of criticism for the strategy. he served under president bush from 2001 to 2006 and tells the british newspaper the times that the 43rd president was wrong to try to build a democracy in iraq. he says in part quote this i'm not one who things our

particular template of democracy is appropriate for every countries at every moment of their histories. the idea that we could fashion a democracy in iraq seemed to me unrealistic. i was concerned about it. when i first heard those words. >> well you know it's all going to be written in the history books. you look at the chaos that's happened in the middle east -- >> that's an architect. that's the one thing i will say that most of the architects of the iraq war have held firm and just completely acted as if nothing is going on nothing has changed. we should have gone in. >> he's saying we shouldn't have. >> isn't that stunning? i think what he's saying is we shouldn't have tried to build a democracy here. >> what else were we going to do? we go in and cut it up and leave? and that's exactly what we've still got now, something you cannot solve. it would have been better not to go in. >> i agree with you. i think most sane rational people would agree there are few

hold-outs there who are like -- >> hiding under a sort of veil -- >> like the japanese on the island still waiting to kill macarthur when they get a good shot. >> rumsfeld wasn't saying the invasion was a mistake. he played a role in getting the country ready for that. >> what is it saying? >> he's singling out george w. bush as if he unilaterally made the decision to bring jeffersonian democracy to iraq. there was a whole cabinet of people who thought that was a good idea. >> just a week before his scheduled announcement, jeb bush is shaking up his campaign for the white house. in a surprise move the former florida governor tapped danny diaz as his campaign manager. this after last january's hiring of david cokal who was expected to head the campaign. the decision suggests bush's

exploratory phase has not met expectations. the network of powerful family friends has not kept rivals out of the race something his opponents acknowledge. >> among the donors he is mick jagger and the beatles rolled into one, but you have to get actual real live primary votes. if you look historically since world war ii no one has won the nomination without winning one of the first three. that's been history. it's an interesting challenge for a number of these other candidates. you look at the media describes, for example, jeb bush frequently as the 41 runner. it becomes an 234interesting question when you ask which of those states does he win? >> frankly, i thought jeb was going to suck all the air out of the room and it hasn't happened. no hit on jeb. no hit on you, jeb. >> i like him. >> don't you love him? >> he's funny. >> he is funny. you know ted cruz is doing something, i mean ted cruz is a smart guy because i think most

people are now trying to figure out, where does jeb win? does he win in iowa? and i don't think there are a lot of people who think he wins there. does he win in new hampshire, in south carolina? basically, ted cruz is saying you can't just be this 800-pound gorilla and lose race after race after race. and so i think it's going to be tough for him. that said the one thing he has going for him, if there are 20 candidates in there, you have the bush name and everybody else. he pulls 20%, he wins. >> he lets them fight on the side and he raises more money than anyone else and he's not even in the race yet. we'll learn what he believes and where he's going to fight hardest. >> merkel and obama. >> president is chilling right there. >> you know what? she's so much comfortable with him instead of bush. >> well. >> because he's not trying -- >> not saying much. >> not trying to massage her shoulders. look how open she is.

a tough east german lady. she feels relaxed with him. because you know obama, he respects people's space. >> and he's relaxed. >> because nobody knows they're not getting handsy with each other. >> oh, my gosh. >> it's very good. can we go to the story i wanted to start with but you wouldn't let me. >> now to the latest on the prison break that has a new york community, not just a community, an entire state and beyond on edge. the search continues for two convicted murders on the run after escaping a maximum security state prixen in dawn amoura new york. two september lawarate law enforcement forces said they believe the getaway car either came too early or too late or possibly not at all. information that leads police to believe the escaped convicts were on foot. and another source sights another force saying investigators are looking

whether a female employee helps. miguel almaguer brings us up to speed. >> mika good morning. we're learning more about the inmates who used power tools to escape the prison behind me. the inmates were kept in the a block, the so-called honor section of the prison where they may have had fewer restrictions. the two said to be good friends. this as investigators look into the possibility of prison employee, a woman who worked inside the prison may have helped the duo make their daring escape. the international dragnet to catch two killers widening across the u.s. mexico and canada, with border patrol agents zeroing in and searching tractor trailers. police s.w.a.t. teams and the fbi with the largest presence outside the maximum security prison walls. convicts 34-year-old david sweat and 49-year-old richard matt were discovered missing 5:30 a.m. saturday during a routine

cell check. for the first time we're hearing the emergency dispatch. >> subjects escaped from the clinton county correction facility in dannemora. unknown direction of travel. possibly southbound in a dark blue honda or ford with a broken rear bumper. >> governor andrew cuomo retraced their steps saying there are indications the prisoners may have had help from the inside. according to news reports, that help may have come from a woman working with the convicts. >> they're interviewing every inmate. they're looking through the logs to see who visited these guys. they're looking through the telephone records to see who these guys called. >> a source with knowledge of the situation says the convicts were in the honor section of the prison where there's fewer restrictions on their movements. authorities say the prisoners inside-by-

inside-by-side cells stuffed their bunks to avoid detection and then used power tools to cut through the steel walls behind their beds crawling onto a catwalk six stories up they broke through a wall two feet thick and cutting holes into and out of a steam pipe breaking out of a manhole more than a mile away. the convicts leaving behind a racially charged post-it note, reading have a nice day. jeremy spent four years at the correctional facility. >> it's a maximum security prison so it's most definitely very tight security very tight movement as far as when you're allowed out of your cell. you're watched pretty much all the time. >> with more than 250 heavily armed officers scouring farm and forest land the city of dannemora, nicknamed little siberia for its isolation is a fortrist. there are four colleges and twroi schools. >> they have a hard time sleeping at night. and they're afraid every little

noise they hear somebody is here. >> two killers on the run, as the desperate search to find them could lead authorities anywhere. as investigators comb through some 300 leads this morning, they concede they are no closer to finding the two convicts. mika. >> miguel almaguer thank you. that's incredible. i'm sorry. >> come on. no, it is. how do they cut out, cut through steel with power tools? >> and that takes elaborate planning and knowledge of the inner workings of the prison to know where the pipe is know they could fit in the pipe they could cut their way out of the pipe. that was in the works for a long time. >> still ahead on "morning joe," the big showdown under way in the world of streaming music. how apple is now hoping to compete with spot aify. plus, in just a few hours, dennis hastert will face a judge for the first time. we'll go live to chicago which is bracing for a media frenzy there.

>> first, bill karins with a check on the forecast. >> a summertime temperatures taking over the country slowly. the last remaining spot is the northeast and the east coast. we still have to deal with one more day of rain and thunderstorms. they're plaguing us this morning. upstate new york vermont, and another round going through the buffalo area around eerie. this will spark additional storms this afternoon. we will get some severe weather. 16 million people at risk today. late today, minnesota, northern wisconsin, this area in new england that will get the earlier storms. this could impact some of the airports too. wind damage the biggest threat maybe small hail. i do not expect a lot of tornadoes. let's talk about the summer heat across the country. jet stream setting up. we had record highs in the northwest and now all of the warm air is coming across the country. we go from the 90s to the 80s in the northwest, but the heartland is going to be in the mid to upper 90s today. could be as warm as 92 in minneapolis, and then finally, as we go to washington, d.c., we're going to be near 95 degrees by the time we get to thursday. the hottest temperature of our

early summer season coming to the east coast by thursday. leaving a shot of new york city scattered showers and storms today, and then the heat builds through the rest of the week. you're watching "morning joe." you pay your auto insurance premium every month on the dot. you're like the poster child for paying on time. and then one day you tap the bumper of a station wagon. no big deal... until your insurance company ja cks up your rates. you freak out. what good is having insurance if you get punished for using it? hey insurance companies, news flash. nobody's perfect. for drivers with accident forgiveness, liberty mutual won't raise your rates due to your first accident. see car insurance in a whole new light. liberty mutual insurance. when laquinta.com sends craig wilson a ready for you alert the second his room is ready ya know what he becomes? great proposal! let's talk more over golf. great. how about over tennis? even better. a game changer! the ready for you alert, only at lq.com.

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let's go to the suburbs now of dallas and the town of mckinney texas, where hundreds gathered last night to protest the actions of the police officer caught on camera wrestling a teenage girl to the ground and pulling his gun to break up a party. it's just the latest viral video involving a police officer and an unarmed civilian to raise questions about excessive force. some are saying the footage doesn't tell the whole story. here's janet shamlian with more.

>> police dispatch called it a disturbance at a community pool in the dallas suburb of mckinney. and what happened next has now been watching online more than 6 million times. mckinney police corporal eric casebold pulling a 15-year-old bikini clad girl to the ground then pulling his gun on two other young people. >> on your face! >> the seven-minute profanity laced video was shot by brandon brooks. >> i did get frightened at one point when the officer pulled his gun out on the kids. that was very scary and frightening. >> get on the ground. >> there is outrage over the officer's actions. >> i'm not indicting the entire police department. because i saw some people doing the right thing. i saw officers actually trying to keep the matter right. this guy was out of control. >> accounts vary of how it started. people who were there say the video doesn't reflect all that

went on. >> the neighbors did not call the police because there was a big african-american party. security called police because there was fighting and people jumping over the fence and things of that nature. >> and he says few in a diverse and harmonious neighbor defend the actions. >> this officer is getting out of control. no need for that. >> scott is a use of force expert formerly with the new york police department. >> you're looking at a bunch of teenagers at a pool party. >> on your face! >> the officer is on administrative leave pending an internal investigation. >> you know michael, when you talk to cops and they talk about use of force and everything a lot of times you'll see somebody with an overcoat and cops will say, anytime they move their hands where they could be going to get a gun, they have a right to use a taser. they have a right to use force. they have the right to -- and i

totally support that. >> yeah. >> and you don't see that on the video. if somebody moves their hands, somebody in the video doesn't understand why they will be punching somebody that does that. but they have a right to do that because if somebody gets a gun, all of a sudden they can shoot everybody. here, she was in a bathing suit. this is just outrageous. who trains these cops? >> well it does really go to the conversation about training without a doubt. but there's also the other element here and i was listening to a lot of video of the neighbors who were relaying the rest of the story and what they had seen. and the one thing that kept coming back was, what does a cop do when you're giving instructions to sit down lie down, stop what you're doing, and they don't heed that? >> if they're teenagers, and they're wearing bathing suits, i can tell you what you don't do. you don't pull a gun. >> that's where the training kicks in. it's a similar situation that was faced in baltimore a few

weeks ago when teenagers assembled and there was, as we saw later on violence as a result of that. so the training part of this joe, becomes incredibly important. i note the cops who came in after that one officer drew his gun. they put their hand on his shoulders like dude put the gun down. we don't need to go there. you can almost sense that from them. there was an overreaction, but there is also that balance of how do you respond? how do the citizens respond? >> and by the way, those cops yeah the two cops really did the right thing. they came in they said put it down. and then they went chasing after somebody else who was running away. while the cop was -- listen the cops, if people are using force and pushing cops around you know, they need to take control. the last thing we want to do is let people think they have a right to use force against police officers. but pulling a gun, the

excessiveness of it all, you said from the beginning of the video, the guy -- >> lost it. >> was wired. >> i don't know what happened before the video. we heard the description from some witnesses there were fights at the party. that doesn't excuse what happened. you watch the beginning of the tape, what's available to us. this one officer was hot from the beginning. he was running back and forth all over the place, pushing people's heads down handcuffing kids sitting on the ground. it was this one officer who was just -- he was on fire. and nobody could get between him and whatever he was going to do that day. >> oh, oh, my gosh. >> the image of that officer sitting on the back of a 14-year-old girl in a bikini is particularly disturbing. >> i can't see another one of these videos. i mean it's been a year of heartbreak, of watching young people, young african-american people caught on videotape being shot, being beaten being

harassed, all of these things. i mean it's wearying. >> body cams body cams body cams. coming up on "morning joe" -- >> like a gasp in between. >> cut. i think we got it. >> brian wilson created music from some of the most unexpected sources. we'll talk to the director of the new movie "love and mercy" about the beach boys creative genius. keep it right here on "morning joe" joe".

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welcome back to "morning joe." mike barnicle and katie cay are back with us. you have new information to talk to us about politically. first, dennis hastert is about to mag his first public appearance since his indictment in lying to the fbi and breaking banking laws agreeing to pay $3.5 million in hush money to cover up past misconduct. joining us gabe gutierrez. do we expect to hear from hastert himself today? >> that is the big question right now. today, hastert is set to

formally hear the charges against him and enter a plea. he was once one of the most powerful politicians in the country, but for the past 12 days, he has remained absolutely silent. this morning, former house speaker dennis hastert is preparing to face charges he violated federal banking laws and then lied to the fbi. he's hired high profile attorney thomas green, who hasruptiments clients in major scandals. >> he has not been indicted for sexual abuse of minors. and no one has been indicted for extortion. and those seem to be the two real underlying issues here. >> though not spelled out in the federal indictment, law enforcement officials tell nbc news the past misconduct hastert allegedly tried to cover up was sexual in nature with a male student at the school where he taught for years. the sister of one alleged victim the late steve reinbold said others might be out there. but mike who wrestled for

yorkville high in the early '80s has his doubts. >> i don't believe it not at all. i never had problems with him at all. >> there are also questions about how hastert would have raised the $3.5 million in hush money after leaving congress. it was in 2010 that hastert ramped up his lobbying. that's according to documents and e-mails in a separate lawsuit filed by an ex-business partner. that lawsuit was later dismissed. >> that's very disturbing. the idea that you can have someone who was one of the most senior officials in the united states government trying to use their connections and influence to make as much money as quickly as possible. >> if convicted, hastert faces up to five years in prison and a $250,000 fine for each count. so far, neither he nor his new attorney have commented, and mika we'll see if that changes here later today. >> all right, gabe gutierrez, thank you. >> so i just want to ask a question. a lot of people aren't talking about it. i got e-mails from people

talking about criminal justice reform, and one guy was telling me, dennis hastert is the worst example ever of -- the worst poster boy for the abuses of an out of control criminal justice system. said that because obviously, the allegations about the child molestation are just so absolutely horrific. but it is interesting that this guy was convicted for lying to the fbi based on the fbi going, and i think a leading question to him in fact, indicted, where it said something like you're keeping all this money because you don't trust the bank system? and hastert was like yeah. that was the basis of the indictment. it just -- and now -- it seems to me like a fishing expedition. if you want to charge him, i guess you can't charge him for the child molestation all these years later, or can you? >> i think there are questions

on the statute of limitations, and extortion, it can't be a victimless crime, he would have to acknowledge he was extorted. >> i don't understand why they don't know if there's a statute of limitations or not. this must be fairly clear, right? >> yeah, and they're still trying to figure out who the victims were because it sounds like there's more than just one victim of the sexual misconduct but we're talking about something over there that has nothing to do legally with why -- >> he's indicted. >> he's indicted and he was indicted because, again, gabe i guess what i understand, gabe is that what i read in the "times" was that the fbi agents said, and the reason why you have been making all these cash withdrawals is because you don't trust the banking system? then his one word answer was, yeah, and that's the basis of him lying to the fbi.

is there more that hasn't been reported? >> yeah, joe, that is the basis for the indictment. you mentioned the statute of limitations. we understand the statute of limitations has passed for any allegations of sexual misconduct. now, the reason there are several reasons why. one of the big questions pete reported on is why there were no federal charges brought to potentially the alleged victim why he or she, why he or she is not charged with extortion. well, according to pete williams who was reporting on a law enforcement source, this was a mutual agreement that was entered into allegedly between hastert and a person named in the indictment as individual a. the big question who is individual a? as we have been reporting, there has been the sister of an alleged victim that has come forward and she says that her brother confessed to her in the 1970s that years earlier while he was in high school that he had sexual encounters with

dennis hastert. it's unclear how that relates to individual a, whether there could be more victims. she hopes more victims come forward, but the indictment as laid out does not mention sexual misconduct. it has the banking transactions and the allegation of lying to the fbi. and that is what hastert will face here today. he will have those charges formally read to him today. >> thank you so much. greatly appreciate it. i guess what i'm saying is it's going to be even though denny has been accused of doing horrific things it may be hard for the prosecution to make its case. >> especially if it is a contract and not extortion, right? if there was a willing agreement between the two parties that this money should change hands rather than the alleged victim extorting -- >> that has nothing to do with the indictment per se. he left so many tracks. >> lying to the fbi. >> not only that withdrawing

large scales of money and then scaling down to less than $10 $10,000 to you know incorporate himself under withdrawal rules. >> as that plays out, let's turn to the race for 2016. the "new york times" is publishing an in depth story about marco rubio's financial struggles over the years. and you say this ties in with the jeb bush campaign shakeup, how so? >> this is the kind of story that could potentially build a character dossier, if you will. if you're half of a presidential campaign is taking out your other opponents. if you look at who jeb bush installed alt the top of his campaign, danny diaz this is something that diaz is good at. they haven't landed a square punch of rubio yet, and there are still questions about whether or not they can. there's a lot of concern in the camp over how well he's been doing. >> i wonder if there's a lot of concern, what i said after seeing marco speak a week ago. his biggest applause line was,

and i just finished paying off my college loans. everybody like rose to their feet and applauded. he was like yeah that's kind of how i felt too. >> parking fines. >> very careful going after the struggling middle class guy if you're a rich guy with a trust fund. >> right. >> i think the bush people need to be careful. >> a lot of doors opened and careful things helping them along. >> and connections with making money. >> and he was sort of prebutting the story and standing up and saying the latest thing is marco rubio is not rich enough to run for president, which is not a line that works in the climate we're working in. >> up next on "morning joe," apple revolutionized downloaded with itunes, it can do the same thing with streaming? sarahizen joins the table next.

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45 past. sara eisen joins the table. apple is getting into the streaming business. >> finally. >> really? taking on spotify. >> taking on spotify. the question is what is going to make consumers choose apple over spotify, which always millions of poem use. spotify has a free version. apple's, $9.99 a month after a freeh three-month subskrpgz. are they going to use it just because it's apple and they use apple products for everything else in their lives. >> the answer to that is yes. >> it's called the ecosystem. >> if it's free on spotify, why would you pay $9.99. >> apple's consumer base dwarfs everybody else. >> and taylor swift is not on

spotify. they have her in a dig to spotify. she was -- not she herself, but it was in the presentation that she was number one. >> i love spotify, love everything about spotify. love the people eefrb there, but they're facing the same problem that microsoft competitors faced in 1995 1996 1997. microsoft is the only game in town. you needed everything had to sort of be fed into there. >> the giant in the room. and that's the thing. you know i say finally because apple obviously revolutionized music with the ipod, with the itunes library and was slow to adapt to the streaming thing. but this is very apple. it doesn't necessarily have to be the first mover, but it then does dominate the space. >> if this works, it means the days of us physically owns music are over right? >> you mean cds? >> even buying individual tunes. why would we do that? >> because you can download them on the likary.

with that subskrpgz, you can do that and listen offline, which is key. >> you say that's very apple. very new york city lululemon. >> tell us. >> back in style. >> the dude made a bad choice of words talking about -- >> back in 2013. >> i know. >> we remember don't we? >> oh, my gosh. we remember. >> how is it doing now? >> great. it came out with earnings that surprised in a good way. it's getting back on the fashion trends. it's got a new ceo and a lot of momentum. also you have to remember this category, athleisure nike underarm our is extremely strong. some of the traditional apparel players are suffering and it's because a lot of people are spending money on apples and electronics and athletic wear. if you look out in new york city you'll see plenty of women wearing leggings who aren't working out. >> always great to have you here. thank you so much. up next film critics say it hits all the right notes about beach boys co-founder brian will

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so it's the first beat on the last bar of the intro, boom, two, three, four. ♪ >> that was a look at the film "love and mercy" about brian wilson and joining us now, the director and oscar nominated producer of the film bill. very good to have you on the show today. this looks so good on so many levels. tell us about, first of all, how he has cast two characters, right, at different times? >> kind of a different approach to telling a story like this. i didn't want to do kind of -- >> epic chronology. >> right, so we decided to take two different parts of his life and intertwine them. just thought it would be a more intimate way of telling the story. >> describe the two different parts. who are the two different characters you intersperse. >> it's brian from the '60s in

his 20s when he's at the peak of his creative abilities, and that's played by paul beno. >> they look alike. i was looking at the video and thinking he looks just like him. >> he definitely does. >> and on the other end, in his 40s when he's kind of caught up in a really bad situation with a psychologist, and that brian is played by john cusack. >> beach boys did not record the instruments on pet sounds and he brought in some of the greatest session musicians l.a. had known at the time. they were skeptical at the time. i remember reading, why is this kid trying to tell us what to do? it didn't take long to figure out there was something crazy about this. there was a genius there. they learned to sit back for the ride, right? >> obviously, brian started off with the surf music, so to speak. which was on its own more

complex that people give it credit for, but ultimately, he wanted to go further with what he was doing. so he dropped off going on the road, and while the beach boys were off on tour he went into the studio by himself and brought the studio musicians in the wrecking crew. >> he wrote great songs even when they were doing surf music. around 1965 he started recording pet sounds good vibrations came out. he blew everybody's mind including paul mccartney and john lennon. they sat there and gasped. >> and responded with sergeant peppers. >> and responded. >> there was kind of a back and forth going on there. for a long time rubber soul and re revolver were kind of in response to some of the things brian was doing. they started going back and forth. sergeant pepper was a response to pet sounds and brian was working on smile to respond. >> then the band starting being

less supportive. they were not sure where he was going. >> sat on that for 40 years. >> the great irony that pet sounds was -- it is the brian wilson piece of work that will always be seen as you know his beethoven's fifth sympathy yet it didn't sell well. critics didn't like it warb while they were reportcording this extraordinary masterpiece that will last 100 years, his own bandmates were fighting him. how tough was that for him? >> very tough. to be fair they had a great gig going with the surf music, but for brian, it was very hard. kind of what drove him into a period of isolation. >> it was a cadillac saleswoman who helped free him of that isolation. tell us about it. >> yeah i mean so many things that happen in brian's life you kind of wouldn't believe, when we were going to make the movie, we're saying we can't put it in the movie because nobody would

believe it actually happened. he really did meet her. >> that was the scene we showed i think. >> yeah so it really was happening that way. >> love and mercy is in theaters now. bill, thank you so much. congratulations on this. >> can't wait. come the only thing you think about. that's where at&t can help. we monitor network traffic worldwide, so we can see things others can't. mitigating risks across your business. leaving you free to focus on what matters most. [ female announcer ] when you're serious about fighting wrinkles, turn to roc® retinol correxion®. one week fine lines appear to fade. one month deep wrinkles look smoother. after one year, skin looks ageless. high performance skincare™ only from roc®.

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cute. >> mika wanted to see little piggies. bad news -- >> oh, look at them. they're so cute. >> it kind of reminds me of the wkrp time when they dropped the turkeys. les dropped the turkeys as a promo stunt that didn't turn out well. >> okay. we gotta go now. >> do we? did you get your piglet -- >> i gotta get one. >> i think there are some zoning ordinances that would prevent that. thanks for watching the show. what time is it? >> time for a blt. >> we'll be back tomorrow. good morning, i'm jose diaz-balart. first on the rundown, where are they? two killers who escaped from the maximum securi