health. let's quit talking at them and do something about it. until then we'll just stay tuned till the next incident. i'm al sharpton. thanks for watching. "hardball" starts right now. good evening, i'm chris matthews in washington. in cold blood, that's how reverend clementa pinckney and eight others were murdered last night. police have arrested an identified suspected. he was apparently acted alone according to police. he is en route right now by airplane from north carolina. we are awaiting his arrival in charleston. witnesses spoke to reverend clementa's cousin described in chilling detail how the

20-year-old roof walked into the bible study, sat among the members for nearly an hour and then transformed the place of worship into a nightmare. >> he asked for the pastor where's the pastor? they showed him where the pastor was. he sat next to my cousin, reverend reverend clementa pinckney throughout the entire bible study. she said he reloaded five different times. her son was trying to talk him out of doing the act of killing people. and he just said "i have to do it." he said "you rape our children and you're taking over our country and you have to go." >> a man identifying himself as roof's uncle told a producer

late today that the alleged shooter has made their life a living hell. he said "we didn't see this coming, we had no clue. andly say this: i hope he gets what's coming to him. they got his ass now. not only has he destroyed nine people's lives and his own, hoose dree steroid his whole family. i hope he gets what's coming to him. >> we woke up today -- and so we have some grieving to do. and we've got some pain we have to go through. parents are having to explain to their kids how they can go to church and feel safe and that's not something we ever thought we'd deal with.

having said that we are a strong and faithful state. we love our state, we love our country and most of all we love each other. >> president obama bore the burden of the nation's consoler. >> any death of this sort is a tragedy. any shooting involving multiple victims is a tragedy. there is something particularly heart heartbreaking about a death happening in a place in which we seek solace and we seek peace. in a place of worship. >> while the president struck an emotional tone in that address, by one count this is the 14th time he's had to address the country after a violent shooting. >> i've had to make statements

like this too many times. communities like this have had to endure tragedies like this too many times. we don't have all the facts, but we do know that once again, innocent people were killed in part because someone who wanted to inflict harm had no trouble getting their hands on a gun. >> craig melvin is in charleston right now. thanks so much for coming on tonight. you've been covering this story. give us a sense of perhaps what we can't see or haven't heard on television, what it like down there where it's happened. >> you know chris, when i got here this morning shortly after the suspect was apprehended in shelby north carolina, you can almost sense this palpable sigh of relief. there had been a number of folks who gathered on the corner. we're go a block away from mother emanuel where the shooting happened last night. this is a community that has been dealing with a great deal lately. as you know the walter scott shooting. just less than two months ago.

that's not three, four miles from where we stand right now. so charleston has had a lot to deal with but it has been reassuring to see and hear from so many folks who insist that this city is going to bounce back like it always has. and the church as well. church leaders are adamant that not on will they bounce back but they will be worshipping in that sanctuary on sunday. there's a vigil that is set to take place starting at 8:00 eastern at a nearby church we're told that's going to be an interdenominational vigil. folks will gather there will be words and prayers and then they are going to march to mother emanuel and lay flowers down in front of the church in a show of solidarity in this community, chris. >> you know why don't you react to what i'm thinking i'm with jay robinson and he'll be talking in a minute.

it not like a police abusing their authority in a violent way. the reaction doesn't seem like something that will cause rioting or looting. it seems like a different kind of wound in our society. the person who did it did it. we didn't all do it. but there's something like this that comes of us. look at this kid. i mean i don't know how you can get that angry at this kid. it's like who is this idiot? and whose parents does he have? and what did he watch on television? where has he been getting this stuff from? and yet we know this racism this hatred and bitter white supremacy is still around i guess in the air somewhere. he's got some apartheid arab emblems on him, something from rhodesia on him. it's a strange kind of wound.

what do you make of it? >> chris, i'll tell what you it feels like in a lot of ways. i was at newtown several years ago and i remember being there in connecticut and talking to folks and you just got the sense that this was just one of those things that are off limits. i think we've probably become desensitized unfortunately to a great deal but this this is not certainly that was fathomable to a lot of folks. here's the thing, not only did he, you know shoot up the church here's a guy who according to folks who were inside the church he sat with the parishioners for 45 minutes to an hour, presumably praying with them maybe reading the bible, doing who knows what sitting next to the pastor at the end of this prayer service on wednesday night, that's when he stands up, he opens fire and he has to reload five times.

i mean this was clearly, clearly something that was planned, clearly something that was premed fated overitated over the next few days and week we'll learn more about the suspect. we do know there was a drunk charge earlier this year, a trespassing charge at a mall about two hours from here m columbia, he started the ninth grate in high school he had to repeat the ninth grade. we have not been able to verify whether he finished high school. there had been some contact with family members earlier today who perhaps understandably did not want to answer questions today. what would motivate someone to be this angry and this filled with hate and rage to walk into the church? six women, three men, three of the nine victims were over the

age of 70. there was an 87-year-old woman shot dead in a church. that's unthinkable. >> thanks craig melvin. you're understanding as best i can understand anything these days. mourners gathered at a prayer vigil in charleston where south carolina congressman jim clyburn delivered a message of resilience. here he is. >> this church our church is built from the rock. and no messenger, no act will ever destroy the foundation of this church. >> congressman james clyburn, i respect you so much for what you've been through and here this comes, these older people getting killed by this premeditated decision by someone who walk into getting the welcome of the church taking

that welcome and using it to kill people including the pastor. >> well, thank you so much for having me. you know this community has responded to this tragedy in a way that should make all of americans proud. last night we saw the police chief not hesitating to call this crime what it was and it is a hate crime. the mayor of the city responding in a way that allowed an atmosphere to be created. today at the vigil, all of the participants conducted themselves in such a way as to say to this perpetrator and any of his sympathizers that might be out there, that we are not

going to allow the foundation upon which this country, this community and the church is built to be rocked by this kind of behavior. so i'm very proud of the way things are transgressing and i would hope that everybody would see this as a galvanizing moment for all of us to come together and find the good that can come out of this evil act. there is some good that can come out of it and i'm hopeful that this community will move forward achieving that good. >> thank you very much congressman james clyburn of south carolina. before his death, pastor clementa pinckney had described his church as a beacon for america. >> many of us don't see ourselves as just a place that we come and worship but as a

beacon and as a bearer of the culture and a bearer of what makes us a people. but i like to say that this is not necessarily unique to us. it's really what america's all about. >> eugene robinson is a columnist with "the washington post." he grew up in south carolina. this is so close to you. >> yeah it is. i grew up in orangeberg but we have family in charleston. that's where my mother's side of the family is from. my great, great grand -- great great grandfather had a place not far from there. it's a very prominent church big, high steeple, founded in the 1816 by people of color and

for enslaved african-americans to worship. one of the founding members of denmark veissi who organized would what would have been the biggest slavery volt in the history had it gone off. it was discovered the day before. he was captured and executed as were 34 35 other people and angry white mobs burned the church down. in retribution. it was rebuilt but then a law was passed outlawing black churches in south carolina in 1834. >> how did that square with the first amendment? >> not very well. >> 1864 and 1865 the congregation had to worship in secret. it was clandestined and could only resurface and rebuild in 1865. the original building after the

burning came down in an earthquake in i think the 1880s, that building dates to 1891. and it's a magnificent building. huge beautiful sanctuary with stain glass window. they were in the middle of a fund-raising campaign to build an elevator for the church because an obvious problem for older parishioners just to get up into the sanctuary because it's on a -- >> do you think this is like a purposeful location for a crime like this, a mass murder? remember the guy who shot his way into the holocaust museum? >> he absolutely chose the highest profile back church. he chose the pastor clementa pinckney who is a very prominent not just clergyman but

political figure in charleston. he was making a statement. by the way, that name pinckney the name pinckney comes from a plantation owner who was a signer of the declaration of independence. >> sure charles. >> charles pinckney. >> that's how slaves got their name. >> exactly. i'm willing to bet that the pinckneys were here a lot longer than the roofs. >> someone at nbc in washington said why is this considered a crime of terrorism? he's basically saying black americans go away. >> look i doesn't consider it a crime of terrorism. i consider it an abomination. i'm not passing angry yet.

there's more than a whiff of white supremacy in the air. it's still a stench. it's fainter than it used to be but it's there. and somehow he breathed it in. he was in an environment in which, you know this became meaningful to him. so how did that happen? and how did he get the gun? i've seen it reported that he was given the gun by a parent a father perhaps, someone gave him a gun, knowing that he was a troubled kid. so why do you give him a gun? >> you heard president obama speaking almost with resignation about guns. >> yes. >> so that's what i wrote about

for tomorrow's paper. i wrote about guns. it is what all these incidents have in common. i don't know how to stop hatred i don't know how to stop mental illness, but we do know how to restrict people's ability to get guns. we know how to do that but we won't. we don't. >> someone was saying today on i think one of the networks that people should have guns in church so they should defend themselves. what do you have to holster up put your gun on to go to church? that's odd. anyway, i do think you gotting is on -- you got something on the atmospherics. i thought when kennedy was killed down in dallas that time in '63, i thought it was an atmosphere there even though he was a man on the left and i was on the right, it was atmospheric. eugene robinson will stay with us.

coming up where did he get his idea about african-americans and raping and all that stuff that took him to that church last night? when we come back we'll talk about motives and what's likely to happen to this guy, dylann roof if he's convicted. our coverage of the charleston massacre continues after this. so why would you invest without checking brokercheck? check your broker with brokercheck.

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this is unfathomable and an unspeakable act by somebody filled with hate and with a

deranged mind. in charleston to have a horrible hateful person go into a church and kill people there to pray and poreworship with each other is something that is beyond incomprehensible. >> welcome back to "hard ball." as the mayor of charleston just said the actions of dylann roof are beyond comprehension. was he crazy, is he crazy or just very angry? deranged? what is it? where did he get theseye ideas about testimonies and why did he sit in church with them for an

hour before gunning them down? i'm joined by san bernardino and a former state prosecutor. you look at the aggravating factor multiple murders, kidnappings, how many apply here? >> there are several that might apply. one is possible kidnapping depending on how the facts develop and what he told people inside the church. probably the best one is the most applicable is the fact that he killed a number of people nine people. multiple murder like this in this situation, that's the main one going forward. >> thewhat's the prevalence of the death penalty down in your state? >> south carolina uses the death penalty quite frequently. our last execution was about a year or two ago, but the

population tends to short the death penalty, prosecutors tend to be for it. i think it's very likely you'll see a death penalty prosecution in this case. >> and you have the chair and you have lethal injection, right? >> yes. >> it only lethal injection, is that it? >> the way it works on the execution is that the jury and the jury alone will have to make the decision whether life or death is appropriate after hearing all the evidence so the jury will actually make the decision, if it comes to that if they convict him and i can't imagine they won't. but if they do the jury will make the decision not the judge. >> okay. a photo of dylann roof from his facebook page show as young man posing with two distinct patches, one is a flag of the

apartheid of south africa and the or is the flag of rhodesia. how do you look at it now? they've got the guy, they have the suspect. >> before i answer i just remember what bobby kennedy said. you idolized him, too. where he wrote about violence and lawlessness and racial division. he said let's dedicate ourselves to what the greeks wrote so many years ago, to tame the savages of man and make gentle the life of this world, let us dedicate ourselves to that. that's something that it just hit me just interview after interview today, when is it going to stop? with regard to your question though and thank you for letting me just entertain that. he not on can face the death penalty under south carolina law. there are at least two federal statutes he can face the death

penalty for. one is the code that deals with church arsons. if you kill someone while they're exercising their religious belief you can get the death penalty under federal law. also under the hate crime act when i was enacted in 2009 and became operable in 2010 for intentionally selecting his victims on the basis of race he can get the death penalty for that. so he's in deep trouble. the on thing that i could think could possibly save this miscreant would be an establishment of legal insanity but i think there's going to be a tough time for that because he premeditated with these folks, he planned, he was there for an hour and it seems to me that he at least had evidence conscious of knowing right from wrong and knew the consequences of what he was doing.

>> how do you respond to all that? do you think it likely the federal authorities will claim him as a defendant, rather than allow the state authorities to take up a murder case about him. >> if i had a better -- the state hats far more experience here. we do carry out executions and it did happen in downtown charleston. there is a federal angle here but clearly he's very much in the clutches of state law right now. there's just no question about it. the at gra vating circumstances are clear. it looks like going forward this is going to be a mental state case this is going to be about psychiatry and psychiatrists. he may not be insane but the supreme court of the united states has bent over backwards

and properly so i think in general, to allow people who are subject to the death penalty to present every. >> so we know who did this. the answer to the question does it involve some kind of mental disease or disturbance or some kind of organic disorder? that's the only way they have to go here. >> look the unabomber, we have the aurora shooter at the movie theater. and sanity is a very difficult threshold to reach. and neither the unabomber or -- >> it's not about and sanity. it not about insanity. >> i -- i understand that. they also allow mitigating circumstances, having been involved with death penalty cases involving extremists for instance, i can tell you that

it's going to be tough but it not impassable. these guys generally are an amall gum of cray otic experiences, cases and motive. what we often find is some angle on this. juries i don't think in a case as horrific as this -- this is the worst racial mass murder that we've seen in many years. and the one or thing i want to add, we saw something in mississippi with a racial homicide where the feds came in and prosecuted even after the successful prosecution on the state side. there's no double jeopardy prohibition in the united states against both a state trial and a federal trial, even if there's a conviction or acquittal on the state side. >> brian levine thank you very much. mr. shealy thank you very much.

>> if i had a vote i would argue for even if the state does the first prosecution, i'd argue for a federal prosecution because would i argue that this is a crime against the nation. it a crime against us a crime against our values. >> sounds like robbing a gas station, though that could be just as horrible in its reality. i do think you have a major point there. we'll be right back with more from charleston in just a minute.

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the chairman of nbc news has announced that lester holt will be the full-time anchor of nbc night live news. brian williams, who in february was suspended from nbc news will join msnbc as anchor of special reports and breaking news beginning in mid august. he will also serve as breaking news anchor for nbc news live special reports when holt is not available. now back to "hardball." covering these mass killings down in charleston last night. we're back with more breaking news.

i'm joined from charleston by jennifer barry hawes. you're reporting for tomorrow. is there something that we're going to develop in the next 24 hours, the motivation, the atmospherics to get in the suspect's head? >> i think we'll be hearing more and more about what kind person he was hearing a lot more about his background and other run-ins with the law he might have had. we'll be hearing a lot more about the victims. in charleston it's something we've all been waiting for all day. who were these people they obviously were all part of a bible study at the church. we want to know about who they were, what their backgrounds were and what exactly happened inside the church of course. i understand there was a business meeting that they conducted earlier in the evening and most of the people left and this bible study remained 12

people 9 of whom are dead. we'll be looking to find out more of what happened montana base -- in the basement of the church. >> this is done so particularly that all the shooting victims are dead. isn't it true there are no wounded survivors? i mean he killed everybody he shot at. >> right. that's our understanding as well. i spoke to a woman who in turn had spoken to the trustee, who the gun man had told i'm going to let you live so that you can share the story of what happened in here. and that woman reported that the two other survivors had played dead. so it sounds like they were not shot themselves but rather escaped because they had the wherewithal to pretend they'd already been shot. >> let me ask you a question about the mood down there, in the black community and north charleston and all of that area.

nobody talks about when there's a police abuse, a killing. there's no talk of social unrest getting angry at society, at the establishment, it different. it seems from here to be different. how would you describe the response from the community? >> i agree. i think the community in something like this is much more knit together the outpouring is more consistent across all walks of life all denominations. in charleston we seem to see huge outpouring from all kinds of churches and all kinds of people. i think it's actually something more that brings the community together despite those differences, unlike and you're referring to the walter scott shooting recently which created more of a divide. i think that one because of the video that came out allowed the community to have a much more unanimous response at least in terms of seeing that the the

horrors of shooting a man in the back as he's running away. i think that in fact in some ways have provided a somewhat unanimous spot. but this tragedy, i think there's a consistent feeling that this was one person who committed an evil act and not some sort of societal-wide commentary. >> i was really taken with your governor nikki haley's emotion on that. you don't fake that. that was real. that was a person's reaction to a wound to a society. i like to see that non-political reaction. i shouldn't say that. independent im i'm impressed with every print reporter i meet these days it's a dying profession.

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welcome back to the coverage of the mass consider in charleston last night. the ame church has a long history when it comes to civil rights. >> this was a place of worship founded by african-americans seeking liberty. this is a church that was burned to the ground because its worshippers worked to end

slavery. there were laws banning all black church gatherings. they conducted in secret. when there was a non-violent movement to bring our country in line with our highest a ideals, leaders led marches from those steps. this is a sacred place in charleston and in america. >> its congregation dates back two centuries. in 182 one of the church's founders denmark veissi was caught trying to organize a slavery bell slave rebellion, they were executed. it was called the mother of emanuel church it continued to

play a role in the civil rights movement. dr. martin luther king, jr. spoke there in 1962. i'm joined by south carolina state senator marlon kim -- kimpson. give us a sense of the historic importance that it was at this church with this mass set of executions was carried out. >> well, the fact that we had a shooting in a church americans woke up in great disbelief. there's a real sense of hopelessness a real sense of fourning, but ironically there's also a sense of encouragement.

today at the prior vigil, there were people of all gender all races, all ages all committed to make race relations and concentrate on the things that divide as you priority in the state of south carolina. >> it isn't like one of these police situations is it? >> well no. because i can tell you i travel from columbia, the state capital, where i was in the general assembly yesterday during session, last night i went to the command center when i arrived in charleston and law enforcement agencies from across the state, there's fbi, there was the city of charleston the county, north charles stontoncharlton, the county council and a large number of law enforcement agencies and elected officials across partisanship lines all at

the command center trying to man the tip lines and get information. and obviously you know the criminal has been apprehended but the whole city of charleston was focused on that last night and we came together and just thankful to good that we caught him. >> pastor wesley you're a pastor so you know all about this. this is part of your world and also part of the history of this country. where black people could go sanctuary, it's called a womb sometimes it's a place o getto get away from the law, get away from white people who were who is still in some cases. >> the church businesses newspapers, all of that came out of the black church and it's always been a critical place for

us to proceed with race locations in america. >> so what happens when this kid goes into the church on purpose, an historic spot and uses that to do his statement, his terrorist statement? >> it always back fires. it's a mean horrific and evil act but it does gal van use people in their faith and ultimately it helps us to recognize where we're hurt and find that place of healing. we do have issues to deal with and the church does become a safe zone. >> i expect this sunday would be the ceremony. >> definitely. we'll have to address it especially being father's day. >> do you want cops at your gate, your door? >> no definitely not. that's not the image we want to send.

but we do have to ask that question and secure the resources, the parishioners who come and need to know they're in a safe place. >> when we return we'll talk to two straight legislators and friends of pastor pinckney the leader of mother emanuel church he was killed last night by a killer. three hundred eleven people in this city. and only one me. ♪ i'll take those odds. ♪ be unstoppable. the all-new 2015 ford edge. when a moment spontaneously turns romantic

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just moments ago we received these pictures showing arriving at the charleston county detention center. the official confirms his arrival but cannot confirm roof will be placed in an isolation cell overnight. not yet. his bond hearing is set for tomorrow afternoon at 2:00 p.m. we'll be right back. we live in a world of mobile technology, but it is not the device that is mobile, it is you. real madrid have about 450 million fans. we're trying to give them all the feeling of being at the stadium. the microsoft cloud gives us the scalability

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you knew the well-known reverend. he was an impressive speaker. that's all i could tell by watching the clips today. >> well thank you for having me first and foremost. but senator pinckney was a man who lived by his faith. senator pinckney was a man who had a baritone voice, it was so deep and eloquent. i oftentimes say that his voice was so deep because he was speaking for so many of the unheard. all i can think about today to be completely honest with you are his two daughters that on sunday will not be able to fix their father breakfast in bed on father's day. this is a tragedy. this is one of god's strongest warriors that he's taken back home and for me to know him personally and serve with him, our state has had a great loss.

>> let me ask you about the mood down there, trying to capture it from up here. i always like to know what doesn't show on tv. what's not showing about this down there that's not getting across in words, as you know? >> the first thing is this is not an isolated incident. we'll call this what it is this is domestic terrorism. this is racism at its worst. but even more importantly, this is a community that's been hurting. this is a state that's been hurting. and we have to come together to move forward. mr. matthews we have nine people to bury. we're grieving for nine different families. you want to know what angers us the most is that today the state flag is flying at half-staff. today the united states of america flag is flying at half-staff. but today the confederate flag still flies as high as it did whether it was placed in front of the capitol and i believe that speaks for itself.

>> is that still an antagonistic symbol to me? >> for me it is. i mean i think about the nine people who died yesterday. i think about henry smith and samuel smith who died february 8, 1968. i think about medgar evers and emmett till. i think about although heroes and sheroes upon whose shoulders i stand today and i fact that i'm 30 years old and have seen so many bloodshed and i'm so weary and so tired, i want people to come together and that flag represents the complete antithesis to bringing this state and this country together. >> why do you think the whites still want that flag? >> i think that was a false general statement you just made. it's not that whites want this flag. i think that there are a few people in this state that hold steadfast to it. there is no doubt that it is a part of history but that history, like most belongs in a

museum and not flying and being disrespect in the face of many who fought to achieve equality and justice and peace. i stood with a very strong gentleman, vincent shaheen, as i ran for lieutenant governor about eight months ago in front of that flag asking for it to come down. there is a whole new generation of blacks and whites there's a whole new generation of democrats and republicans who believe that flag should come down. i'm going to get every ounce of my being to move our state forward and i'm going to give every ounce of my being to take that flag down. >> keep us in your prayers, please. >> of course. we'll be right back after this.

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we just got the booking photo of shooting suspect dylann roof. there it is. much more next on "all in" with chris hayes. good evening from south carolina. i'm chris hayes. there are nine people who are murdered inside the emanuel african methodist episcopal church here in charleston last night. cynthia herd 54. manager of one of the busiest branches in the charleston county public library system where she worked for 31 years. the lie rather will be renamed in her honor. reverend daniel simmons sr. died in the operating room. he was 74. retired in 2005 as charleston