families and their pain. i'll be thinking about racism and the confederate flag. i'll be thinking about voting but i'll also be thinking about, we've got to deal with guns and gun culture. thanks for watch. i'm al sharpton. "hardball" starts right now. the right-wing backlash over the confederate flag. let's play "hardball." ♪ ♪ >> good evening, i'm steve kornacki in for chris matthews. two days after south carolina governor nikki haley called for her state to remove the confederate flag from the grounds of the state house, another governor today, robert bentley of alabama ordered confederate flags be taken down from his state's capital. in mississippi, they called for

it to be removed from the state flag. two senators joined in the call to make the change. in four states, virginia, north carolina maryland and tennessee, the governors said they would move to stop issuing license plates with confederate flag images. and giant retailers as well like walmart, target sears, amazon, and ebay all said they would remove confederate flag merchandise. but there is still passionate support out there for the confederate flag. former commander of the sons of confederate veterans spoke to nbc news yesterday. >> it's a war memorial to honor 25,000 men, a quarter of the men in south carolina died to protect this state. >> so many people in this state and the country see slavery,

they see racism they see the klan. >> they stole it. they dishonored it. that flag never had anything to do about slavery. >> jonathan hill a state representative, also criticized the effort to remove the flag saying that dylann roof wanted a race war, and i think this has the potential to start one, in the sense that it's a very divisive issue. it could very well get ugly. meanwhile, some conservatives suggested there were ulterior motives at play. here's rush limbaugh yesterday. >> i have a prediction. just said it's not going to stop with the confederate flag, because it's not about the confederate flag. it is about destroying the south as a political force. it's about isolating, targeting, and identifying the south as dylann roof. do not doubt me folks, and i'll make another prediction to you.

the next flag that will come under assault, and it will not be long is the american flag. >> conservative pundit ann coulter took a swing at governor nikki haley. >> well i'm a student of american history. so i'm appalled by though i'd really like to like nikki haley, since she's a republican. on the other hand, she's an immigrant and does not understand america's history. the flag we're talking about -- >> you think immigrants can't understand the history? >> well she doesn't. the confederate flag we're talking about, never flew over an official confederate building. it was a battle flag. it is to honor robert e. lee. >> and bill crystal, who said he supports removing the flag, nevertheless nevertheless bashed liberals for saying the same thing. the left's 21st century agenda expunging every trace of respect, recognition or acknowledgement of americans who fought for the confederacy. he elaborated on "morning joe"

earlier today. >> i dislike the chief self-righteousness of the left and some on the right too, where they get into this frenzy of hatred, and it's not just the flag. now it's going to be, we can't honor robert e. lee what about the monument, southerners are entitled to be proud of him. >> jonathan capehart and david corn both are here. let me start with how do we jump from taking down the confederate flag to the assault on the american way of life on the left. it's the governor of alabama, a republican taking this down. a republican in south carolina taking this down. republicans in north carolina, in tennessee. these are republicans doing the same thing that democrats are calling for. so how is this the left being out of control? >> exactly.

the poor right-wing the poor put-upon right-wing having to have to confront the racism and hatred that go along with the confederate flag. for bill crystal to say that the left is engaged in a frenzy of hatred and that we should respect robert e. lee. no, we don't have to respect robert e. lee. he fought for the confederacy which tore apart the union. the confederacy was treanous. the folks who fought on its behalf were traitors and the battle flag is no better than a swastika, and that's why people in south carolina as a result of the horrible murders of nine souls a week ago tonight, that's why people finally said enough is enough. especially when that manifesto, attributed to dylann roof showed picture after picture of him holding the confederate flag and 2,500 words of him spewing racist bile against african

americans, against jews against hispanics and people he called northeast asians. i don't know what bill crystal or rush limbaugh and ann coulter are talking about or anyone else who has a problem with americans standing up for america. >> well, leave it to bill crystal to make the connection between the civil war and iraq. here's crystal making one big leap of logic about liberals. >> the left would of course have been mostly in the party of peace in 1863 we have to end this slaughter, we can't win this war. sherman's killing a lot of civilians. he was. the left doesn't want to fight dictators, they don't want to do anything about slavery in iraq but it's easy to beat up on dead confederates. >> i'm trying to figure this out. where is this aggrieved emotion coming from, when bill crystal

is saying i want the flag to come down too. then instead of saying good he's saying the left would say, don't fight the civil war? >> can i have a minute to laugh? [ laughter ] >> because i think that's a proper response from bill crystal who got everything wrong about the iraq war that you could get wrong, now he's lecturing the left on the history lesson. it was liberals who fought against slavery and it was the republican party's leader abe ham lincoln who fought against the south. his flag was the american flag. the rebel flag was a nag of treason against maybe the greatest republican president either. so this gets so convoluted and so contorted. we have not a frenzy of hatred. we have a frenzy of bipartisanship with republicans and conservatives roger wicker and liberals and democrats and

african american leaders all coming together, saying, after this tragedy we have it's not a solution it's not gun control, but we have a communal response we can work on one part of this together. so it's not a frenzy of hate or anything else. it's a frenzy of coming together. yet bill crystal can't get on that train, ann coulter can't get on that train, because they see it as a win for liberals and for people who don't like racism. >> the piece that i struggle with he can't get on board with it, but he says he wants it to happen. he wants the flag to come down but still has a problem with it. >> it's complicated. >> more interesting reactions here too. from former virginia senator jim webb, one of the few democrats not to explicitly call for the flag to come down. he wrote on facebook this is an emotional time and we need to think through these issues with the care that recognizes the feed for change but also respects the complicated history

of the civil war. the confederate battle flag has been used for racist and other purposes in recent decades. it should not be used as a political symbol that divides us but we should remember that honorable americans fought on both sides in the civil war. wow. [ laughter ] >> jim webb is apparently running for president. who would have thought that of all the presidential candidates out there, the voice most sympathetic to the confederate flag is one of the democrats running. >> yeah and if he thinks he's getting the nomination after a statement like that if they're going to beat the republican in 2016, good luck. >> who is he talking to there? >> you know i'm not sure who he's talking to. maybe rush limbaugh maybe ann coulter, maybe bill crystal. but the idea that you know people fought honorably on both sides of this issue and that we have to respect the folks who fought on the side of the

confederacy. no we do not. i have to repeat myself we do not. treasonous traitors who tore apart the union. sorry. >> he said that the flag the confederate flag is not a divisive symbol. actually it was a divisive symbol. it was a flag for people who wanted to tear this country apart, who were treasonous and wanted abraham lincoln -- they cheered his death. so it came about through division, it's not a sign of unity. i know he's from the south he's written about this over and over again. he's a military historian who likes to talk about the great military strategists who worked for the confederate army and respects robert e. lee, he's still wrong. and on the democratic side -- >> you know what it reminds me of i don't know if you remember this when howard dean was running for president. he had a comment at one point, where he said, i want to be the candidate of guys with

confederate flags. what he was talking about was this old idea the democratic party used to have the south, and for so long they struggled with the idea of how can we win back white southerners, the ones who were there for us for generations? and howard dean was speaking to that then. maybe that's what's inspiring jim webb. his constituency has always been more rural white -- from the rural part of virginia maybe that's who he has in mind there? >> i don't know. but gene robinson made a very good point on "meet the press" on sunday and he said you know remember, the confederate battle flag didn't go up over the state capital in south carolina in 1865 but in the 1960s in what gene said was, quote, a big middle finger from south carolina to the federal government, which was trying to make it desegregate and be more equal. so if that's what jim webb is trying to defend well more power to him, getting the

democratic nomination for president. and if he does somehow get it good luck becoming president of the united states. >> so where is this going from here? on the one hand we have quite a few republican leaders governors, major republican figures, i saw the son of strom thurman coming out and saying he wants the flag down, calling it a symbol of racism so there's movement on the right side of the political spectrum that's not been there for generations on this issue. on the other hand, there's the bill crystal, the limbaughs, the coulters, where will this shake out? >> they've lost. it's like gay marriage. the issue has passed them by. the confederate flag was burned this week not in a violent way, but in a rational, reasonable way, in terms of its use in any public setting. i think that won't be happening. where it has been used it's going to be retired. now there are confederate mon yum yumts out there and statues, people are writing "black lives

matters" on confederate statues in graveyards and other places, public parks. but as a public figure so to speak, the confederate flag is dead. you can't ban it. people will still buy it. it will still be on beer can holders and things like that it will be waved at nascar races and other places. you can't stop that. but i think it will not have any public validation any longer. >> and that distinction between putting it on public property state property official statement by the state versus what people do in their private lives. anyway thank you, gentlemen. coming up a huge win for president obama as the senate gives him a big victory on his trade agenda that looked all but dead just two weeks ago. and it paves the way for what may be the biggest bipartisan achievement of the obama presidency. plus, it's now day 19 of the manhunt for those two convicted

killers who broke out of a new york prison. police have narrowed down the search area but are they any closer to finding the escapees. chris christie's poll numbers are plummeting but he's still getting ready to jump in the presidential race as early as next week. with all his troubles back home why does christie think 2016 could still be his year? finally a dramatic statement from the president and a big change that will make it easier for the families of americans held hostage by terrorists to pay ransom to bring their loved ones home. this is "hardball," the place for politics. that's why i have the spark cash card from capital one. i earn unlimited 2% cash back on everything i buy for my studio. ♪ and that unlimited 2% cash back from spark means thousands of dollars each year going back into my business... that's huge for my bottom line. what's in your wallet?

>> in an emotional ceremony the body of one of last week's shooting victims, senator clementa pinckney was brought to the state house, where it will lie in honor. it was carried in by the south carolina highway patrol honor guard. thousands of mourners came to pay their respects. also today the senate passed a

resolution commemorating the nine victims. senator scott spoke about the victims this afternoon. >> i had the opportunity to talk to one of the victims' son, daniel simmons jr. he said with great enthusiasm and energy, a sense of excitement, that this evil attack would lead to reconciliation restoration, and unity in our nation. those were powerful words. >> and tonight, bible study will resume at mother emanuel ame church one week after the deadly shootings there. "hardball" returns after this.

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>> i think the relationship between the president and myself and senator mcconnell has been very good. been a lot of coordination to

get this across the finish line and i'm proud of the work that we've done. >> this is a very important day for our country. we've demonstrated we can work together on a bipartisan basis to achieve something that is extremely important for america. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was house speaker john boehner and senate republican leader mitch mcconnell cheering their work with the white house and with president obama in declaring victory in the intense congressional fight over trade. just a few hours ago, the u.s. senate officially brought the president's trade package back from the dead by passing the fast-track. this is a picture snapped by white house photographer by pete souza capturing president obama embracing joe biden after the vote was reached breaking a filibuster. this was a big victory for president obama. it clears the way for what could be the biggest bipartisan

achievement of his entire presidency. he can now finish negotiating a massive 12-nation trade deal, a transpacific partnership, tpp, which could become a cornerstone of obama's legacy. i'm joined by two people on very different sides of this issue. ron kind is the chairman of the new democrat coalition. he led president obama's fight in the house to push fast-track through and debby dingle is a democrat if michigan who opposed it. this is a story i don't know if we've ever seen in the entire obama era, the bulk of the republican party lined up with the president, the bulk of the democratic party against him. why is he right? why are all those republicans right and so many democrats wrong on this? >> sometimes the political stars do align out here and we find some common ground. we live in a country with divided government. if we're going it do anything it's going to have to be done in a bipartisan fashion.

trade is one of those issues i believe strongly in i know president obama does. many of our colleagues across the aisle. we need to be negotiating the rules of trade as we move forward, to elevate standards, to level the field for our workers, our farmers, our business, so they can successfully compete in the 21st century global economy. and this is another opportunity in the fastest growing region of the economy, the pacific rim area where we need to be doing business, selling more of our products, our creations here in the united states and with it the good-paying jobs that come from all that. >> congresswoman dingle, a week or two ago, the story on this issue seemed to be that you, that others in the house who were opposed to this had scored a huge victory, a huge blow against president obama on this issue, you seem to have derailed it in the house, just a week or two later, it appears he's gotten everything he wanted. what happened? >> well first of all, i want to say that i have a great deal of respect for my colleague ron

kind and i do believe in working across the aisle on a bipartisan issue. this for me is an issue about the working men and women of this country. and it's still close. and the fact of the matter is that many people were told that we're voting for tpa, that they still had a vote on tpp. that's where this fight is now going to turn to. so that we make sure that any trade agreement that we are going to pass in this country is going to protect the american worker. i'm in this very unusual situation. i supported nafta. i supported the free trade agreement, but i can't do it anymore. i've seen a million jobs lost with nafta. i've seen a ton of jobs lost with the korea free trade agreement. i was sent here to protect the working men and women in the midwest and manufacturing is being hurt by these trade agreements that don't do something about current manipulation. >> last month president obama said some of his friends are wrong and are quote, making stuff up about this trade deal. >> i don't have any other

rationale for doing what i do other than that i think it's the best thing for the american people. and on this issue, on trade, i actually think some of my dearest friends are wrong. they're just wrong. >> critics warn that will undermine food safety even financial regulations. they're making this stuff up. this is just not true. >> what did you think of that? he said opponents, his friends in the democratic party are making stuff up when it comes to this. >> first of all, i don't think they're making stuff up. but i'm very clear. i have the facts. the reality is that there's an $8,000 cost differencial between a vehicle sold in detroit by the japanese because of the currency manipulation, and they're doing that to undercut the cost of products in this country. toyota made more money in their u.s. operations than ford did in their worldwide operations. it's a fact that since nafta, we

went from a $3.billion trade deficit to -- i have facts. i can keep quoting them all night. >> this is still a long process, there's a fast-track authority. the president can have that, that can extend potentially to the next president. it could take a long time to negotiate, which raises the question of if the next president is from your party, if the next president is hillary clinton, there are now calls on hillary clinton from some of her opponents for the democratic nomination, to take a position on this. she's not taken a position yet. do you want to see her take a position? >> first of all, i have great respect and admiration for debby dingle. her hard work, her passion, her knowledge about this. it's good that there are people pushing this administration to do better to get the best agreement we can. but for me as we move forward, we're already trading with these other nations. so what the rules of trade are going to look like, which is what this is about. it could be our rules, or no

rules or china's rules. and if it's no rules, or china's rules, that's nodt good. >> do you want hillary clinton to take a position? >> she's got her own campaign to run. i'm sure there will be opportunity for her to weigh in. the tpp will be moving forward. there's an opportunity to learn what that means for our businesses right here at home. and as secretary of state, she was clear where she was before. but i'm not her official campaign spokesperson right now. appreciate the time. thank you. up next day 19 now in the manhunt for those escaped convicts in new york as the search zone narrows down we'll i have frightening look at one of those killers. this is "hardball," the place for mix. politics is getting relief. only nicorette mini has a patented fast-dissolving formula. it starts to relieve sudden cravings fast. i never know when i'll need relief.

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. >> what you're seeing here is the face of relentless pursuit, and we're going to be relentless until we capture these people. we don't want them to have a restful night with their head on any pillow. we'll resolve this case and capture these people and return them to corrections. >> that was new york state police major charles guess. authorities are ratcheting up the pressure to find those two escaped murderers in upstate new york. day 19 of the search and the only solid lead as to the whereabouts of richard matt and david sweat comes from dna at a hunting cabin near the vil anl of owl's head. police are worried the men got more than water and peanut butter at that cabin. >> just about every country or cabin has one or more shotgun or weapons, and we've operated since day one under the belief that these men are armed. >> joining me now, adam reese.

it sounds like they're in the woods, they could be armed. what are we finding out? >> lots of dead ends. very frustrating for law enforcement. we were about two miles from here yesterday. they swarmed the area thought they had their men, they turned up empty. went to tidous mountain yesterday, also turned up empty. today they were in malone about ten miles from here they got a tip there were two men in a house, they surrounded the house, found two men, of course they weren't the escapees. the last known location was the cabin on saturday where they found the dna, some clothing maybe some food as well. today they tell us there may be a bloody sock related to the escapees and more importantly, a shotgun. they could be out there, armed and dangerous with a shotgun. so that's something they're looking at with three weeks in still no confirmed sightings. >> already, adam thank you for that. let's bring in former fbi

profiler and msnbc contributor clint van zandt and mary ellen o'tool. video has emerged showing escapee richard matt just seven months before he tortured killed, and dismembered his boss the crime that put him in prison. in the video, he's called ricky and it shows him posing with a blow dart gun. here's some of that video. >> this is my friend ricky matt here, he's a freaking crazy lunatic maniac. >> is this the face of a maniac? >> this is the south american blow gun. >> and we're going to demonstrate. >> we're going to demonstrate how powerful this gun is today. >> we're going to dip these in blood and we'll put a patent on them and sell them as deadly weapons. >> so clint, when you see that video, one of the guys who is on the loose, probably in the woods, when you see that, what are you looking at there? >> well this is part of his

persona, i think, number one. i think this guy is a functional sociopath, psychopath and a social personality. but he's a cunning individual and he likes to present himself in a way. this is manly. the rest of the video shows this other individual shooting the blow dart and it goes right through his arm and matt flinches. that's how he wants to portray himself, and he's done it for so long it's like a caricature that now he has to live out, even when he's on the run. >> and mary ellen, this is a guy who killed somebody he dismembered somebody. often with these horribleou go back and look at that looked to me like they were there. >> i would certainly say that they're there. and i would agree with clint, this is someone who is psychopathic. you can see in the beginning, he's charming he's handsome it's a long time ago, but he presents well, he's comfortable with what he's doing, but at the same time he's using violence

as a form of entertainment, and for him, violence is fun. it's entertaining. something that's very pleasurable. then he goes on to engage if this horrific homicide. then i think one of the most interesting things for me was the point where he's pulling the dart up close to his face and you see the eyes shift from shiny, sparkly eyes to what we call dead eyes, and that's when you see the threat come out. that's when you see the psychopathy come out because dead eyes are consistent with psychopathy. that's where maniacal richard matt. >> here's new york state police major with details about that. >> a bloody sock that means somebody had a blister, or it could mean a lot worse. i'm hoping for the best. anything that would impede their progress and aid these searchers would be a good thing for us. >> so it looks like they're in

the woods, they've established a perimeter, but these are very thick woods, dense woods, maybe they're hiding out in different people's cabins. are you confident it's a matter of time before they find them? >> well i think so. again, realize we don't know how much blood was in the sock. we know one if not both individuals have been identified by dna. it's interesting now, we used to say dna could take days, over a week, they now have the ability, if you have something to compare it to, make the match within 90 minutes. so law enforcement was hot on the heels of these guys, but the question is how quickly were they able to put an outer perimeter around this whole area? just like that circle you're showing, steve. how quickly were they able to throw 500, a thousand police officers and put that iron ring around there. then wa youhat you want to do you want law enforcement officers from the cabin moving out, and from the outer ring moving in.

you want to catch these guys in between. but again, if it's like that state police major says they likely have their hands on a shotgun. they may have already written the final chapter, they've just not lived it out yet. >> thank you, to clint and mary ellen. appreciate the time tonight. coming up, chris christie is sinking in the polls, his top aides are under indictment in bridgegate and yet he's getting ready to announce his presidential campaign as early as next week. that's next with the roundtable. you're watching "hardball," a place for politics.

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>> here's what's happening. convicted boston mayor thon bomber was formally sentenced to death earlier. he apologized for the 2013 attack saying i'm sorry for the

lives that i have taken. the white house is applauding members of the house and senate to restore the promise of the voting rights act. the supreme court struck down key provisions of the act two years ago. a thousand people have been evacuated due to a wildfire. and bobbi kristina brown has been moved to hospice care. she was found face down in a bathtub in january. back to "hardball." ♪ >> we are back. politico reports today that new jersey governor chris christie will announce his candidacy for president sazoon as next week. aides to the governor saying there's room in the republican field for an establishment candidate and that his candidate will focus on winning the key primary state of new hampshire.

but the news comes as governor christie continues to struggle in his home state of new jersey. an april poll found that 65% of his own constituents 2/3 of them do not think he would make a good president. just 29% saying he would. at the time, christie insists that jersey voters merely wanted him to continue serving as governor. here's how he spun those numbers on fox news last month. >> the new jersey voters say you would not make a good president. they know you the best. why should we trust them? >> a lot of those people in the 65% want me to stay. i've heard that from lots of people at town hall meetings don't leave to run for president. >> but they say you would not make a good president. >> i think people hear the question they want to hear. >> now a new poll from fairly dickinson university puts chris christie job approval at 30%, the lowest it's ever been. and when voters were asked whether they disliked the governor personally or his policies or everything about him, the plurality of the poll

said they disliked everything about him. what's worse is that republican voters across the country appear to feel the same way about christie according to the new nbc news/wall street journal poll. 55% say they could not see themselves supporting him. joined now by the roundtable. well, jay, let me start with you, he's way down in his home state, falling far behind in the republican race been eclipsed by eight, ten other candidates. he's got them right where he wants them right? >> yeah it sounds look a real shoe-in for president. he i mean, look chris christie is an amazing political -- i don't want to say beefast, but he's incredible charismatic, and that's what he's betting on betting everything on new hampshire, and that's tough for him. new hampshire looks for fiscal

conservatives and chris christie was the opposite of that as the governor of new jersey. during hurricane sandy he was like, show me the money, much to the appal of conservatives. and he cut tax credits when he was governor and brought in more revenue, which goes in the face of the grover norquist pledge. so trying to convince people in new hampshire, it's going to be like a one-on-one every time. i'm really charm, i'm really great and have to not yell at anybody for the entire duration of his campaign, and we'll see if that's possible. >> i think you hit on something. chris christie does not lack for confidence in himself. he does not lack for -- and if you go at least up until bridgegate, what that translated into, was a pretty meteoric rise in american politics. so what christie's looking at when everybody says he has no chance, he's looking at what

happens in those debates. if you get on the debate stage, 2012, newt gingrich is running way back he gets the question about his ex-wife, turns it into a attack on the media, jumps 30 points wins south carolina. chris christie is saying get me on the stage and i'm going to have one of those moments where that personality comes through, i hit it out of the park and everything changes for me. any chance that could work? >> no reason not to try it steve. you've been elected governor twice of new jersey nowhere else to go politically. if you were at 30% nationally as a republican candidate for president right now, you'd be popping champagne bottles -- champagne corks anyway. right now, with 14 candidates, if you include chris christie, you really don't have to get that big of a percentage to distinguish yourself and to have an opportunity. so i think he's going to make the run. >> and people in nearnlw jersey when you talk about chris

christie's prospects, imagine if it hadn't been for the bridge this guy would be coming into this race winning a blue state with more than 60% of the vote presenting himself to the republican party that's had trouble, this is the guy who could flip states, maybe there's not even a jeb bush out there, if the pre-bridge great chris christie -- pre-bridgegate chris christie was running for president. >> that's true. he's said he didn't know anything about it but he's been tarnished by all of this because at a minimum, the most charitable thing you can say is that he hired people who were incompetent or corrupt or both and that he didn't know about it. so this will continue to be an issue that will plague him. but he will also have to go out and try and sell his record in new jersey, which quite frankly is becoming a problem. bridgegate is part of it but it's also the bond ratings in

the state, it's the budget. and as jay referred to the revenue shortages and just the broader sense that new jersey itself isn't exactly a thriving example of what you want to be running on. >> let's take a look at christie on the stump in new jersey from a town hall event last week. >> i think sometimes when i read about myself that i'm like the most psycho analyzed guy on the national political scene going. they're all like why did he say that, why did he do that? why is he so angry, so direct, so blunt? they all have different theories about it. but you're here today, so you don't have to wonder anymore why. [ laughter ] >> i got to tell you, i covered him when he was the u.s. attorney and i would see him speak at small college events around new jersey ten years ago, and it always struck me, i have not seen many politicians in that setting there, holding

court, got the microphone oprah style, 30-40 people around him, he's really good in those settings. >> he's playing john mccain, 2000 straight talk express which one over new hampshire. he's great at those settings but he's not the only one in the field playing the straight-talk express. john kasich playing truth to the republican party. half the people have playing this. everybody's the maverick and there's already anybody who pt wants to be the establishment. he said originally he was the establishment, but he's the straight-talk, i'm going to tell it to you in plain truth. that's going to be hard to distinguish himself in the field where you have a lot of candidates being the one to say, i'm giving you the tough truth. >> there's that cloud, bridgegate, the bridgegate trials for the indictments that have been announced so far, right now it looks like they'll start in november just as things are heating up out there in iowa new hampshire, all the early states.

the round stable staying with us. up next, big changes coming for families of americans held hostage by terrorists. the president paving the way for them to be able to pay ransom to bring their loved ones home. this is "hardball," the place for politics. when a moment spontaneously turns romantic why pause to take a pill? and why stop what you're doing to find a bathroom? cialis for daily use, is the only daily tablet approved to treat erectile dysfunction so you can be ready anytime the moment is right. plus cialis treats the frustrating urinary symptoms

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that we need to hide our conservative ideals. but the truth is if we go down that road again, we will lose again. let's do something new. let's endorse our own principles for a change let's boldly speak the truth without fear. [ cheers and applause ] >> jindal was once a rising star in his party, but lately he hasn't exactly caught fire among republican voters. he doesn't even register in our latest nbc news/wall street journal poll. we'll be right back.

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welcome back to "hardball." today president obama unveil a seventh rule and guidelines revamping u.s. hostage policy. for the president, this was more than just a change in policy. it was also an apology. in the last year we've seen isis behead american hostages including journalist james foley and steven sot love. and camor mueller died in captivity. and warren winestein was killed in an american drone you can see the. luke sommers died in a rescue attempt. and the president told those families that their government had let them down. >> the families of hostages have told us and they've told me directly, about their frequent frustrations in dealing with their own government. how they've often felt lost in the bureaucracy and how in some cases, families feel they've been threatened for exploring

certain options to bring their loved ones home. that's totally unacceptable. it is true that there have been times where our government regardless of good intentions has let them down. i promised them that we can do better. >> i want to point out that no family of an american hostage has ever been prosecuted for paying a ransom for the return of their loved ones. and the last thing we should ever do is to add to a family's pain with threats like that. >> now, in revamping u.s. hostage policy, the white house announced that it will now permit family to pay ransoms without fear of government prosecution. it will also openly communicate with captors. roundtable is still with us. heidi, you've been covering this. it is a classic wrenching dilemma here when you talk about this, do you faye ransoms like other countries do? does that just encourage more

hostages to be taken? from the standpoint of the families who have just been through hell and a lot of them saying they were feeling heat from their government not to cooperate, not to pay the ransoms. maybe they think it saves the next family but there's not much solace for these victims today. >> they had to do this because of the high profile nature in particular starting with mark foley's family. i think the entire country was horrified and outraged to hear that the family had received threats from officials, folks to be prosecuted if they tried to pursue a ransom arrangement. this is not a huge change in policy really. i know that the president was clear that they are just clarifying on the second half of the policy that it has never been against u.s. law to communicate with hostages with hostage takers. the important thing is that the

government, the u.s. government will not be going anywhere near paying ransom. because yes, that would be kicking a hornet's nest. this was primarily about showing sympathy. >> and that does set up a weird situation. maybe an you comfortable situation where some families if you have the money, your loved one is taken hostage maybe you can pay the ransom. if you don't, your government won't be chipping in. >> there is no good answer here steve. obviously as heidi was pointing out, you put yourself in a situation where you're either paying captors and encouraging that behavior or not. to have this bifurcated system it feels like bad policy. either the u.s. government should be in the practice of communicating with and negotiating with hostage takers potentially even paying ransoms or not. when you've got this sort of side issue where families can do it what you're saying is those who can afford to do kit do it and those who can't should say goodbye to their loved ones.

and i don't think there's an easy answer here. it seems like an odd decision policywise. >> it is one of those, a wrenchingem. a i've thought about it. i can only imagine if it was my loved one, the length that's i would go to to get them out. when you start paying ransoms, maybe there will be a lot more people's loved ones being taken. thank you. appreciate you taking the time only the. we'll be back right after this. no? you can't see that? alright, let's take a look. the one on the right just used 1% less fuel than the one on the left. now, to an airline a 1% difference could save enough fuel to power hundreds of flights around the world. hey, look at that. pyramids. so you see, two things that are exactly the same have never been more different. ge software. get connected. get insights. get optimized.

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that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "all in" with chris hayes starts right now. tonight -- >> remember the man for who he is and who he is and what he meant to the state. >> a somber scene in south carolina as the confederate flag comes down in alabama. only the, the ongoing good bad and ugly responses to the terror in charleston. >> these people sit in there, waiting their turn to be shot. plus, the nra reacts to the charleston massacre. >> we want to have a debate or at least we want to talk about the confederate flag. >> as the presidential hopeful expands gun access in his state. and ad vent nurses fatherhood caught on tape. bobby jindal'sed on presidential announcement and the father who made the single great