they will learn a lot from this. do you -- are you hearing anything about anybody else being arrested in connection with this, bea sides joyce mitchell and the other prison official? >> and gene palmer? >> gene palmer. >> reporter: no, but certainly told by the district attorney they will leave no stone unturned. they are continuing the investigation and they will take it wherever it leads them. they want to know exactly who was involved and quite possible there were others that were involved and if they weren't involved, they might have known about the plot and they could be, you know, just as culpable as joyce mitchell and gene palmer. i just want to tell you a little bit more about the last 24 hours here. after they were able to apprehend richard matt, shoot him, we learned the details of the autopsy today, shots to the head. multiple abrasions, bruises and bug bites on the lower extremities. so, they knew that david sweat probably experienced similar

conditions, being out here in the wild for three weeks. and they assumed that he wasn't too far from where they apprehended richard matt. so, sure enough, just a little bit north of here, ten miles from the can need yap border, which is not too far from where we are -- >> right. >> reporter: -- he was shot and they do have him alive. just tuning in right now, we want to let our viewers know that nbc news has heard from new york state officials confirming that david sweat was shot, wounded, he is alive. he has been taken into custody just south of the canadian border. right now, i have jim cavanaugh, former a tf special agent and msnbc contributor on the phone. jim, are you surprised or not that david sweat survived two days after his partner in crime, literally, was shot and were >> i'm not surprised. he was able to move on foot quicker than a lot of law enforcement officers. it takes time to establish a perimeter and move in a lot of

officers. but he was getting to the end of his limit there and we talked about today with alex witt that he would be caught quickly. at least he is alive and the people of upper new york state is over and no citizens we know of have been injured in their escape. there's good news here and law enforcement needs to be come mended for, you know, apprehending them. >> but it has been such an exhaustive search for these guys, jim. i mean, no stone left up turned, land, air, everything in that area has been combed. it has been so puzzling for people that these guys lasted as long as they did out there. >> i think it's just indicative of the rough terrain and, you know, somewhat for their planning. they went out of the prison reportedly with a guitar case and we now know it was probably chock full of candies that they bought in the prison, they traded for in the prison, they stored up in the prison and, you

know, they were carrying more candy than a cub scout troop, making their way through the woods and planning to get the ride, which fell apart for them. so the terrain is so rugged, when you get into these wilderness areas, you really can't see them and they were only moving a few miles a day. i think they got 50 miles from the correction facility and they have been gone 20, 21 days or so. so it's only two or three miles a day. it'sthe preittic slow traveling. >> are you surprised that they stayed in the same area? this was such a well-planned escape and of course, we know that joyce mitchell did not meet them with a getaway car but you would have thought they would have other sort of backup plans to get out of that area? >> yeah, i think if joyce had showed up, they likely would have been a good day's drive away. remember, they were only known to be missing at 5:30al, but they could have been missing as early as midnight.

so, they could have had a long head start on the officers. i mean, they could have been sitting on the jersey shore by the time anybody knew they were gone if joyce had stayed in the conspiracy. but when she got cold feet, it really threw them into a loop and they didn't have a way to compensate, they started cutting through the backyards. luckily, need store of candy and they kept making it through the wilderness, laying low, probably watching the roads, seeing all the tactical officers deploy. and then when they broke into that one cabin, reportedly drank some bourbon or gin and probably got intoxicated and started firing a stolen shotgun at some residents and fellow campers. he was the architect of his own demise, really. and sweat -- sweat headed out and now he was captured as well. >> it was surprising, given how much planning went into it, didn't take into account perhaps

joyce would fall through and didn't have another person waiting for them. >> right. you know, that's how we all see it and it's a great question and how we all think. what happens is though, the inmates are limited really by who will help them. so, they work so hard on joyce mitchell, they worked sort of on the other correction officer. i don't think he knew they were going to escape but he certainly broke some rules to help them hook up their hot plate and so forth, gave them some paint, a la the shawshank redemption. the paint was used against them, because they used it to cover their escape. so they used people to get out, but their real connections, their real help, it didn't exist beyond that. matt got the key to the highway, the guns, thought he could shoot the guy with the camper, get him to stop and he would jump in the truck pulling you the camper and maybe get away but that didn't work too well for him. so you know, just not -- they had no real strategy once joyce

left them cold at the manhole cover. >> i want to remind people, if they are just tuning in right now that nbc news is being told that david sweat has been shot. he is wounded. he is alive. he has been taken into custody. he was shot just south of the canadian border. i want to go back now to adam reese who is on the ground up there. adam, what else are you hearing? >> reporter: seeing law enforcement leave this area, we can assume very relieved, here three weeks, working 12-hour shifts, slowly make their way out. this whole operation will slowly wind down. they will take him to the hospital. they will want to talk to him. again, they wanted to get him alive. they wanted to learn more about the plot to escape from jail. also, how did they survive out here? aside from what we know about breaking into cabins and making their way through the forest, how did they survive? but more importantly, how did they get out of jail?

what facilities, what -- who helped them? who was part of this plot? who may have known about it? because they were just as guilty as anybody, like joyce mitchell and gene palmer, who were actively involved, giving them tools to escape, giving them paint, allowing them access to the electrical box, all sorts of things that made it easier for them to plot their escape. >> just seems so shocking to us. i want to bring in jeffrey ross now. school -- he is from the school of criminal justice the university of baltimore and jeffrey, please correct me if i have the wrong school. but can you take us a little bit inside what was going on in prison for these guys that they could even ened gender the goodwill or even the help of corrections officers? >> most prison verse 24/7 to think about ways to escape and it does appear that they were able to somehow get some benefits from joyce mitchell and from gene palmer. how useful those were is hard to

say, as they may have had other people helping them both inside the correctional facility and also on the outside. it is important that sweat was found alive, because what is going to happen, his testimony is going to be important in both the criminal proceedings against mitchell and palmer and he may very well implicate other people in the -- in the escape attempt. law enforcement working overtime, trying to locate them and putting closure on a case that's gone on over three weeks' time and without any incident to any innocent bystanders. >> jeffrey, are you surprised that it's taken this long for law enforcement to find them? >> indeed. most of those -- most escapes in the history of american

corrections, what happens is the individual is caught fairly quickly. because they don't get that far over the fence. this is a very unusual case. very kind of interesting and mellow dram mame melodramatic case. hopefully new york corrections will learn from it, as well as other state department of directions in terms of whatnot to do. i think both sweat and matt were very skilled at convincing both mitchell and palmer to give them materials that they really shouldn't have been giving them, combination of a lot of attention given toward mitchell, flattery and perhaps something more deep in terms of a romantic relationship. right. does this speak to something more that needs to be done

within the corrections in terms of the culture or in terms of how they vet corrections officers? >> well, mitchell a contractor or she is a correctional worker. wasn't subject to the same kind of training that palm is. but what happens is you spend eight hours a day five days week for long periods of times with these guys who are locked up and you get to know them. you learn that despite their criminal convictions, they are human beings. they have needs, wants, desires. they may have families. may come across as very human. and you can connect with them. and in many cases, you spend more time with them than you do your own family. and so in many respects, you let your guard down or one can let one's guard down and tell them information of a personal nature. >> sure and develop a relationship with them and sort of a connection. i want to go back to adam reiss

who i believe has new information for us, if you can hold on, jeffry. adam? >> reporter: i just want to add to the conversation that you're having regarding the situation at the jail and how they will once again look at the rules and regulations. we know they were no longer shaping lights in the cells because the prisoners said, you know, we are trying to sleep if you shine a light in our cell every hour, we just can't sleep. they stopped shining lights and also allowed not to have their heads showing. they were allowed to sleep with the covers over their head because they said it was just too cold at night. so, they were allowed to do that. and then we learned from several reports that two of the guard towers on the night of the escape were unmanned. so, all of these lapses in security were happening. you can bet that all of those will be looked at as they make sure. and also, the block they were on, the honor block. some described it, former corrections officers that spoke to nbc, stephanie gosk, described it as a block party. they were listening to music. they were cooking their own

meals. they were dancing. they were watching tv. all kinds of things. nothing like a prison is supposed to be. >> when you said that two of the watch towers was unmanned, adam that is so surprising but they must have been unmanned quite a bit for these men to know that that would be the case when they were escaping. right? this had to be a regular thing. >> reporter: we don't know if they knew they were unmanned, but you could see certain rules that were in place that were changing. they weren't checking them in terms of checking their heads in the cell. they weren't shining lights in the cell. they weren't checking after there was some kind of a brawl that we learned about several weeks prior to the escape. that typical brawl would have led to a cell-by-cell search. that cell-by-cell search did not happen and some had suggested if it had happened, they might have seen some of the holes in the wall that they were making for their escape. >> incredible. you said they were on an honor block. so, i'm assuming that's because they demonstrated good behavior

and they were allowed more privileges? >> exactly. and people were outraged to know that two convicted murderers were allowed to be on this so-called honor block. and again, this honor block called a block party by some former corrections officers because the rules that were so lax. they were allowed to basically do anything, be outside of their cells, cook meals. we know that they were allowed access to the electrical box, ostensibly so they could cook meals but maybe we later learned that that may have had some doing, we don't know how that could have affected their escape but electrical box, they were given access tools. they were given access to paint brushes. >> really incredible. almost sort of mind blowing. i want to bring jim cavanaugh back in. jim, what does this tell us about the state of our corrections and the state of prisons, what's going on and the latitude we give these prisoners? >> yeah, i think have to tighten up. the governor, the commission of corrections are going to have to

tighten up that operation in dannemora, especially the way these honor block has got these killers. one is a cop killer and the other guy is known to have killed two people and dismembered one. pretty verbs guys. now, what happens is in prison, as you know, you're treated based on your behavior in prison, but you also have to be formulated in how dangerous and vicious you are. and, you know, sometimes the corrections officers and commanders, you know, need freshening up, too. they need a new -- a new commander, a new captain or what ever and change those, keep those rules right. i mean, this description of a block party, you know, is really dismay be to the public. you know, the next thing we hear, they doing keg stands in there? this is not the bay the lockup is supposed to be. so, and also, we need a little better training. you know, let me stand up for the corrections officers here, too, who around america, really do a great job in the criminal.

and they need some training. nobody ever wants to throw extra training at them and they need a little more training on how these prisoners worked against them psychologically. i can tell you i worked with many of them in my career and they are excellent, excellent people who really do a great job and have some great information in the criminal underworld. you can get great information from corrections officers who glean that from inside the walls about what's going on in crime in the streets but we got to help them to be able to resist, you know, the manipulations of these psychopaths and sociopaths who are -- have practiced doing that their whole life and we saw matt and sweat double-team joyce mitchell, the contract tailor in there. and of course, the other officer, who i don't believe, from everything i've heard, knew there was an escape afoot. but nevertheless, he was bending the rules. >> of course he was. right, what was he doing giving them anything? >> right. i mean, he was bending the rules, clearly was a violation.

he was charged -- he was clearly wrong. but i don't think he knew they were going to escape. i think he was just helping them, you know, wire the hot plate and so forth. you know, when you get into jail, when you spend any time in a jail, what you find out is every little thing is magnified times 100. so if the hot plate for an inmate goes out, it's akin to all the power in your house going out and having every one of your vehicles break down at the same time. the same way you would feel if that happened, that's how that inmate has distress. so they are wanting to get it fixed. and that's what they played with the corrections officer, but really, they were playing the long game to get back on the cat walk to escape. but it's not unlike an inmate would feel even if they didn't have an escape plan. they would be distressed if their hot plate didn't work.

>> they don't want to dehumanize anyone. they are in prison. they have to walk the line. >> you can see the lines that would work on the officer. look, my hot plate doesn't work, send in a requisition to the state to get it fixed, it is going to take two months. can't you just let me go back there? i can fix it pretty quick. >> oh. mm-hmm. >> so he understands the bureaucracy as well. he understands the maintenance in the prison may not get to it for weeks. he doesn't want to hear the guy gripe. he lets them go back there, what he misses is they are playing the long game. they are playing the long game. that's why the rules are there, because they are always playing the long game. >> and i think you said something so interesting, jim, that perhaps some sort of psychological training for the corrections officers would be necessitated now? >> right. exactly. i think they need to help corrections officers.

you know, they are gonna take a bump on. this they are going to take some criticism. certainly justified criticism. we all understand that. there may be some changes in command. let's come back around and feel the most dangerous people in the state, in america. let's not, you know, just condemn every officer facility around the country. let's realize the tough job they do for us in america, keeping people safe there and dangerous people there and having to protect themself there is. >> ma's truethat's true -- excu want to bring in john yang from nbc news, covering the story from the beginning. john what are your thoughts now that we know david sweat is in custody? >> i think the big question is what happened, because he -- this was about three miles south of the canadian border, which makes it about ten miles or so from the search area, from where richard matt was shot and killed

on friday. were they together through friday? now we don't know the last time or the last time that we know they were together was last saturday in that cabin, the last time they found dna, separate dna evidence of the two of them. so, was he able to slip out of that area before the sort of ring was tightened? we also don't know what happened, what led up to the shooting. was this a sighting from somebody? tip or lead from somebody? this was certainly very, very far from the search area. >> perhaps the dna they picked up in the cabin, do you think they could have used that to find them? >> no, because it was about 15, 20 miles away. it was a week ago, more than a week ago. before you they wouldn >> but they wouldn't be look fogger that from where they were eventually? >> no, it was 20 miles away. >> too far. i want to bring in clint van

zandt, former fbi profiler. give us your thoughts, now that we know david sweat is in custody finally. >> i say finally. once matt was in custody, i don't think there was any doubt in most searchers' minds they had to find sweat. they just had to have a wide enough perimeter and collapse that perimeter slowly and they would have him. there were candy wrappers a mile from where sweat was shot. whether they were left there then or later, that is something to determine. the fbi believed that the fugitives were going to head for canada and it appears that may well have been the case here. of course, the canadian authorities were sitting on the other side of the border like a big catchers a mi's mitt, waiti come that direction. so law enforcement tightened and tightened a circle. look, when you have 1300 cops

and federal agents, in all hones honesty, ought to be able to find this guy. it is terrible, rough terrain. jim cavanaugh and i have been in terrain like that and looked for individuals like this before. we have never had -- i have never been with 1300 people searching at one time. to me, that's the largest search in one area concentrate i had thinkive ever heard of. >> incredible -- >> in this case, brought them n >> incredible they were on the lam for three weeks. doesn't that amaze you? >> well, oh, it does. >> this will be a tv movie. no doubt about it. did they have any help or were they able to do it by themselves? we know other fugitives on the run, the olympic park bomber was on the run for five years. the individual who shot the pennsylvania state trooper was on the run over a month. these guys had survivalist i can estimates, clothing shall food and probably had outside support. the issue comes here, did these

two now just sweat have any assistance whatsoever once they popped out of that whack a mole manhole, realize they didn't have a ride and they just took off to the woods? i have read one bit of information suggesting that matt looked like he had cleaned up somewhere along the way, maybe add shower, maybe even shaved while he was on the way before he got shot in the head three times when he had that shot gun in his happened. but i think it's positive that sweat, number one, we always want to capture somebody alive in law enforcement. number two, we would like sweat to tell us what happened. the issue becomes what can we bargain with? sweat knows if he had anybody on the inside other than george mitchell and palmer, anybody else who helped him, if he tells, he will be labeled a snitch and he will be in solitary for the rest of the time he is on the inside.

>> right. so, what's his incentive? >> let's make a deal. >> so,centiveincentive? >> we are going to take his hot plate away from him, make him show his head at night, all of these privileges he had are going to be taken away, so how do you incentivize somebody like this who has got nothing to gain and perhaps something to lose? here we have, again, he had a choice to surrender or die perhaps. law enforcement able to find that middle ground, eliminated the threat and brought them back alive. hat's off to them. >> that's right. certainly a great day. all right, clint -- bill -- clint, excuse me, i want you to stay with us. bring in bill stanton, former nypd on the phone with us. bill, what do you think right now the police are doing with david sweat? are they interrogating him? are they trying -- what's going

on, do you think? >> i think do everything by the books, read him his rights, charge him with the appropriate crimes but eventually, i do believe they will negotiate some type of deal where he will give everything up. what this is, this is a multimillion dollar lesson in human fallibilities, human factor. complacen complacency, we make mistakes in complacency and we see the prison system and we know that there is drugs. we know that cell phones are smuggled in. we know that there is sex and non-consensual sex going on in these prisons. we tend not to think about it. but this does happen. all this does is highlight what happens, you know, daily, in prisons around the country. not the majority, the minority. happen because of human failings. >> does this speak to sort of an

overhaul of our prison culture? >> oh, it -- this is the thing of it, talk about it today and possibly next week. i can pretty much guarantee you, nothing will be done. there will be a knee-jerk reaction because, you know, the money doesn't want to be allocated. these prison guards, the correction officers, they do a heck of a job. but essentially, they are paid to be in jail. they sleep at home when the bad guys sleep in a bunk. we have to ask ourselves the question, these two are on the honor block. how do you kill a police officer, how do you chop somebody up in pieces and you're allowed any privileges? >> exactly. which is what so has everybody wondering as we have been learning more and more about these prisoners, how they formed these relationships with the corrections officers. it is sort of incomprehensible. >> well, time is on their side.

it is all a game, many of these inmates, they are a master of psychology. i call these guy two smart mental morons. they were able to game and get on the good side of so many people and we are going to learn, you know, i'm -- i'm confident, we are gonna learn exactly how they did this and it is going to be interesting how the correction institution is going to address these problems. will they or will they look the other way? we see this with the tsa. over 95% on the penetration on the red team test, they got through. this is after 9/11 and the it s a was wide open. why are we to believe this is going to change with the corrections? >> we would certainly hope it would after a prison break of this magnitude that's really captured the country's attention. do you think that if we gave more psychological counseling to our corrections officers, our prison guards, that this kind of a scenario would not happen?

>> absolutely. and i think we need -- i think we need -- especially the correctional officers themselves. again, they do a thankless job. but they need, you know, they need oversight. they need review. they need to rotate these guys. when the nypd, you don't have precinct commanders stay in charge of a precinct for too long. now, may not be official policy. the reason why they rotate them is to prevent corruption. we see it in politicians. we see it in people of power. when they get in a police too long and get too comfortable, well, guess what corruption suspect far behind. so we have to look in the mirror and ourselves, the law enforcement body and we also have to examine how we treat, you know, human filth like these guys. again, one killed a cop, the other chopped a person up. they don't get a hot plate. they don't get a color tv. they shouldn't get anything. >> you said at the beginning of our conversation, you thought

they would make a deal with david sweat and they would get him to talk. but he has no incentive to tell them anything. >> sure he does. sure he does. you know what? you can either look over a grassy knoll or you can look at a brick wall. that makes a difference when you're spending the rest of your life in one place. you know, there's a big difference, a view, no view, one shower a week versus two showers a week. i'm just giving you, you know, minor things. this guy will make a deal, make no mistake. you think he will? >> yeah. and it's not going to be -- they are not going to offer him a lot at all. you know, whatever -- whatever they can give, whatever minimal, you know, you don't -- you don't get to do what he did and get much leeway either way. >> were you shocked, as we are learning, that they were sort of on the honor block and given all these privileges, did you know -- did you know that? >> i knew they were on the honor block but it is a sad commentary that the -- not only did they

take lives, but the way they took lives. that they are afforded that level of luxury. i'm sure the families of those slain didn't know that and i'm sure if they did, they didn't like it. again, there's a reason why no one broke out of that prison in such a long time, it was the complacency and the fal bills of the human element. again, we don't come from the planet perfect, we come from the planet earth, but this shouldn't have happened. >> this was sort of a perfect scenario. bill, i want you to stay with us. in case you are tuning in right now, we want to let you know that david sweat has been captured. he is alive. he is in custody. the manhunt is over. we are going to be learning more about that as this -- details become available. i actually want to go to adam reiss on the phone with us now, who has some updates. adam? >> reporter: learning more details about where it happened. it was the town of constable, about two miles south of the

canadian border, where he was shot. we don't know his condition. we believe taken to a local hospital here in malone. several ambulances flew by. we believe he was the only one who was injured in this altercation between law enforcement and david sweat and do believe he has been taken to a local hospital. again, he was shot in the town of constable, that is about go miles south of the canadian border. so he was headed north from the perimeter area where richard matt had been shot just 48 hours ago. back to you. >> okay. again, he was shot in the town of constable, which is two miles south of the canadian border. so we can only imagine that he was probably making his way up there. do you know anything else about his condition, adam? adam reiss? he was just -- okay. we are going to go back to adam in just a moment.

we -- excuse me, we are going to be showing you pictures right now of people cheering as law enforcement is driving through that area. the crowds are swarming. um see police vehicles. everyone, of course, very excited and very relieved in that area that this search is over. this has gone on for three weeks and really captured the nation's attention. and that was our local affiliate that we were just looking at. again, just tuning in, david sweat has been taken into custody, he is alive, he is in custody. we know now he is at a hospital in malone and he was two miles south of the canadian border when he was found. people, needless to say are elated in that area. i want to go back now to jim cavanaugh. jim, are you still with us in. >> yes. still here. >> jim, what -- what do you make of the psychological profile of these two men and their relationship?

was this just the strongest of best friends? what can you tell us, based on your expertise? >> well, you know, clint's talked about that a lot. he is a profiler. as a commander, i relied on those profiles to give us that assessment of people in many, many cases, from the behavioral analysis section at the fbi, which was staffed by the fbi and atf. so, i'm not a profiler myself, but certainly, a agen agent a l time. i just thought when they got out and joyce dropped them there, when they were seen in the backyard by the neighbor, that their plan was gone. that they didn't have anything else. there was nobody else to help them. i don't think they had a vast network. they are not members of organized crime. either one of these guys committed basically individual crimes. they split had another confederate with them. they weren't members of la cosa

nostra, ms-13 gang, didn't have confederates to help them escape. if there was people to help them get out, they comment find a ride. they only had joyce mitchell. tells a lot about what happened here h. >> okay, we want to -- i'm sorry, just going to show everybody a picture right now, david sweat is in the alice hyde medical center in malone. you are looking at a picture of it. that is where he is right now, we can only imagine what is going on within those walls as officers are probably talking to him. we don't know what his condition is at this moment i also want to go to clint van zandt, clint, if you are still with us, what can you tell us, because you are a profiler, about their friendship or their personality traits that would bond these two men together like this. >> well, we have got the symbiotic relationship. their two cells were side by side. they probably realized this was a two-man job. we know this has been planned at least for a year.

i would say the two of them probably got some level of enjoyment or satisfaction in their combined ability to manipulate those inside the prison to include either the -- either the security guards inside that as well as joyce mitchell and perhaps others. again, they may have felt it was a two-man job, getting their way out from their cell, punching through the walls, cutting through steel. so all of this caused the two of them to come together. now realize, i think one or the other, two have killed each other in a new york minute if they thought there was a reason to do it. and when one or the other started to fall behind in this particular hunt, i would say they would have abandoned each other and went their own watch so in this case, when you get psychopaths like this, they are best of friends until they don't need each other and then they could care what happened to the other. >> i want to bring in joseph

jack loan, a former nypd officer. we know david sweat has been taken in custody. how is -- >> what's going to happen now, we are going to make sure that he stays alive, 'cause he is the key comp month to this whole investigation, from everything that your previous guest callers are talking about. this is -- he is a treasure trove of information. we need to get out from him how he did it, how this was planned, who else was involved. ness again, a question we have all been talking about. what are the incentives for him talking at this point? >> well, he is not going to be a very popular guy in prison right now because they are going to be cracking down on all these little perks that everyone is getting, i'm sure. so he is not going to have any friends in that prison, wherever he goes. he might be better off talking about what he knows so that maybe they can make his stay a little bit more comfortable for the rest of his life. >> isn't it also true if he does tell them anything, he is a snitch and then his life in

prison will be even worse. >> yeah, certainly is. he is going to have to choose between what -- how he thinks he is going to be able to survive, because at this moment, he is stuck between the proverbial rock and a hard police. so he is going to have to figure out for himself what is more beneficial and what the inter gators are going to convince him of. >> i want to go back to clint talking about the personalities of these men and how they formed this friendship. clint, at the end of the day though, they are both murderers. these are not the most trustworthy of individuals. so how did they within the walls of prison identify each other as someone they can trust? >> well, in this particular case, i think they both decided they wanted to escape. we know, for example, that matt, the last time he went to trial, he was considered such an escape risk that the local authorities had snipers up on the roof. they had him tied with chain. they had a vest on him that would shock him and put him down

if he tried to escape. so mentally and physically, everything was there within him. and realize, we have, as jim cavanaugh says, we had two cold-blooded killers. i mean, matt chopped up his boss into pieces, tortured him. we know sweat allegedly shot a deputy sheriff 22 times. there was no tears on the part of law enforcement trying to bring these two guys in. and if they didn't surrender shall there was only one other alternative they likely faced and of course, we industrial to hear what the final fate of mr. sweat might be. >> exactly. i also want to bring in eric fogle, maryland state police, retired. eric, you have worked with blood hounds, haven't you? >> yes, ma'am, i have. training for about 21 years and actually handled them myself. >> what can you tell us about the search that went on for david sweat? >> i can tell that you most likely use blood hounds.

any time they found a point or article of clothing or article they would have touched, i'm sure they would have put a blood hound on that trail to make an attempt to find the direction of travel and kind of lead them to do an area that they could put all their resources in. >> how does that work exactly in the bloodhound picks up the scent of the person and then how long can he search for that scent? 's worth of work for this dog or what? >> yeah, i mean, they are able to trail for several days. the fresher the scent, the better. so if, let's say that he had touched something, an article of clothing or any type of object that you can confirm is him, they put the dog on that, at least determine the direction of travel. the human scent is basically your dead skip cells coming off,

when you touch something, they connected that, you walk away, you are leaving the dead skin cells. what the dog does is trying to establish trail, hoping to lead to the suspect, but if nothing else, bare minimum, they can have the state police and the other agencies involved give them a direction of travel. >> as we find out more about how they did, in fact, capture david sweat, we will find out what role those blood hounds plays in finding him. i want to go back to clint van zandt, talking about the prisoners and what their life was like on the inside. clint, it likely that any other inmates knew about this plan and if so, why wouldn't they say something? or why wouldn't they want to get in on it? >> number one, i think it's every inmate's fantasy that they are going to get out that they are going to pull the great escape. and you know, your last guest, the former trooper who is the dog handler, we know that somewhere along the way, camp where these two individuals were staying, they found a pepper

share. now, i think it is a common belief, especially on the inside, with inmates that that's one way to deter a search dog is either to put pepper on yourself or put person on your trail. it would be interesting to hear what your other guest has to say about that. >> yes, unfortunately, eric fogle had to run so we can't ask him right now. leave that hanging. >> we will leave that hanging. sure we can find out more about that but i wanted to ask you, clint, within the prison, how come -- other inmates must have known that they had hatched this plan. >> oh, yeah. and i think so, too. realize that as much as this honors wing, ward, whatever it is, even though they had rock 'n' roll music and dance parties and they were cooking burgers and everything else, there was, as the governor said when this first happened, there was a lot of sound, punching through walls, drilling, grinding metal and everything else. inmates know what those sounds

are, they know what's going on. yet, i would say anybody close by was probably living somewhat vicariously through these two and the idea that they may have been able to pull off an escape like this. >> are you surprised that we haven't heard more from inmates coming forth with information, helping the investigation? >> well, again, we talked about the idea of being a snitch earlier. if the word gets out that you did -- if you're an inmate and you did anything to stop these individuals or to halt their escape, i think it would have been hell to play on tay on the now the issue comes out, the prison is going to lock down. the honors floor is going to go away. these special privileges is going to go away. there's going to be flashlights in every inmate's face every night and they are going to blame sweat for this. so i think it's probably up likely that they will put him back in this same prison. they will have to, should he survive his wounds, probably

have to consider putting him somewhere else. >> but things will be very different in that correction facility going forward, for sure. >> yeah. >> and what do you think about more psychological vetting of the corrections officers and support? >> well, i think there's going to be more training. you know, i -- a number of us have said, how could this be? how could they give these guys these privileges? you have to look at it from the perspective of the prison side, too. when you have these stone-cold psychopathic killers who could stick a knife in any guard or any other inmate any time they wanted to, what type of a carrot do you have to get good behavior, to tell them, i know you're in prison for the rest of your life, but if you don't do anything bad like you have done on the outside, we can do x for you. looks like x grew exponentiaexp, as far as what they had, but have to be able to offer something to somebody other than

tell them your entire life is lost on the inside and there's nothing we can we can do to make it better for u that's when i think you really have people, even as bad as these two are, you have to extend to them some tape of hope, but again, these two guys turn around and bit the hand that fed them and they probably ruined this for everybody in this face fit is not facilities all across the country. >> and again, i just keep wondering how these two identified each other as a worthy accomplice. of all the other murders and criminals in there. >> knock knock, who's on the cell next to me? who worked in the prison tailor shop with me? who had access to joyce mitchell with me? who knew the guard -- the same guards on the honor floor? both of these gays, it starts with the cells next door to each other and then the commonality that they had in their jobs, the

people that they interacted with, i think it was natural, you saw this terrible bonding of these two psychopaths with one idea in mind, getting out. you know, is it worth getting out for three weeks, where one's dead and the other is critically wounded? only one of them can even answer that for us. >> i want to bring back bill stanton, former nypd. bill, we know that david sweat was shot a couple miles from the canadian border. he was -- we can guess that he was probably headed that way. what did he think would happen if he got to the border? >> i mean, we have extradition laws. i don't -- what is frustrating to me is that they didn't have a concise a, b and c plan. it's almost like these video games where you get to one level, you know, once they got out and apparently, they weren't picked up, they had no backup plan. but as an earlier guest said,

they had no intensic value to anyo -- intrinsic value to anyone. they are the lowest of the level human filth. if you had to break out of jail, who would help you it is not like they had some buried treasure somewhere, where they could offer value to anyone. they were on their own. and they deserve everything they got. and unfortunately, this -- as i said earlier, this was a multimillion dollar lesson on human frailty and, you know, the human fact to the mistakes that we all make. so by mistake and some by corruption. i'm sure they will comeingenuit inmates. let's go to adam reiss standing outside the hospital, the alice hyde medical center. adam, what can you tell us? >> reporter: i can tell you that officials here have confirmed that david sweat is here at the hospital. i can tell you it is the most secure hospital around here.

they have secured a perimeter around the hospital. they have let the media in. and there are some local people who have come in just to take a look, to see where david sweat is after over three weeks. now, this is the emergency room. it is quite possible, depending on his injuries, that they may transfer him to a level bun trauma center, we don't know because we just don't know the level of his injuries at this time. they got him here pretty quickly. he was shot in the town of cop stab. that's about two hours south of the bored we are canada. and again, he is here at the alice hyde medical center in malone, not too far from where richard matt was shot. page? >> security must be very tight even outside of the hospital? >> reporter: it is. it is. there is state police, local police, sheriffs, they have all come around here and i can tell you, seeing around up to on our way here from where we were before at titus mountain, a lot of the other law enforcement agencies are slowly starting to

make their way out. i can tell you, they are greatly relived, working 12-hour shifts for weeks there, now seems to be over. we are hearing the people were cheering. did you notice that when you were on your way to the hospital? >> reporter: i didn't see that, but i can tell you a bunch of locals that have gathered here at the hospital, they are certainly relieved. i can tell you all over town, they are relieved that these two men have been apprehended, one dead, one injured. but that they can go about their lives, not worrying that there are two men, to two convicted murderers roaming in their midst. >> also wondering if it is possible, adam, for your cameraman to pan a little bit to see the security? >> reporter: absolutely. absolutely. we will give you a look. you can see right here, there's a police checkpoint, as more law enforcement come here. they are going to wimauma want to talk to him. they will want to interview him. they are going to look to find out as much as possible about

what happened prior to the escape, who was involved shall who was complicit, how did they survive for over three weeks out in this wilderness, 6 million acres of wilderness here in the north woods, in the adirondacks. so, this hospital is very secure. they want him to survive. they wanted him to be caught alive. and they were successful. we believe no other officers were injured in the a prehelps and they have got him alive and they are going to want to interrogate him, find out, again, how did they do it? who was involved? were there other jail officers involved other that joyce mitchell and jeep palmer? we know those two. but were there others? it seems like a lot of people knew about the alleged sexual relationship that the two or maybe at least one of them had with joyce mitchell. what else did they know about what was going on? and there's going to be a very

close look at the companditions that prison. why were they allowed so much freedom on the honor block? why were they allowed to have hot plates? why were they allowed not to be checked upon every whour a light? and why were there allegedly two towers unattended on the night of the escape? page? >> that's what's just amazing. i want everybody to get a look at the cheering that we were talking about. mike cronyn, he is our affiliate wptz. earlier, he was reporting and we could see people cheering if we can throw that up for everybody, take a look at that. >> we are just outside the entrance of the alice hyde medical center. right behind me here, you see police and troopers and also some people out here gathered to check exactly what's going on out here. but as i said earlier, we are up in route 122 and route 30 and that's where we saw two ambulances, as well as several troopers and police cars heading south toward malone here. and steve's gonna flip around and show you what's going on

right here. people applauding as -- [ applause ] some of the law enforcement driving off and heading down toward the entrance of the hospital there. certainly, a joyous mood around here from folks, a sense of relief from people here, as we have learned that david sweat has been shot and captured. >> yeah, so a big sigh of relief for everybody up there i want to bring in jim cavanaugh. jim, we know that david sweat is inside the walls of the alice hyde medical center right now. do you think they are going to bring in some sort of special psychiatric investigator to try to break him down? >> no, i don't think so, page. you know, i think that most of the answers to this question are already held by state police. i mean, i think they have 95% of what went on. like clint and the nypd officer, these guy also no support on the outside.

the question we don't know, the state police may know, is how did they get and work the power tools inside the walls? >> right. >> if they have that -- [ inaudible ] if they know how they accessed the power tools, when they did it, time of day, night who gave them access, whether that was one officer been charged or some other or it was another contractor or whether they were just able to map nip late themselves because of their given privileges, that's really gonna be the remaining thing. i don't see this, from what we know, being some vast conspiracy, corrections officers or outside people helping them, like i said, couldn't even get a ride. and so, basically, how did they survive? you asked the question. they took a load of candy. they had plenty of access to water in that wilderness in the streams and creeks and it rained quite a bit. you can go a long time without food. they had the candy. they broke into the cabins and stole and ate peanut butter. ate some berries. they were getting weak and they

were getting by bugs, but as long as you have water and the climate was tolerable, wasn't freezing cold, zero degrees or something, they were able to last and really, it's -- that's not the mystery. that's not a mystery and i think the state police, commanders and everybody who participated in this, all the agencies, the marshals, the fbi, everybody in customs and border protection, you know, they used their heads. we talked about profiling earlier, but the commanders made the right decisions. and i think what's going to be interesting, page, how did they locate what sweat here today? >> right. >> did a citizen see him and call him in? did an aircraft see him walking along a road? >> blood hounds used. right. exactly. >> did a camera pick him up? somehow he was found, the assets were moved in and he was shot. and when he was shot, it makes me think he might have had a firearm. so, that remains to be seen as well. >> you brought up the power tools inside prison.

it just baffles people that they could use power tools and nobody would hear them. i don't care how loud the music is. that's almost incomprehensible. >> when i was a young officer, i started out working in a detention facility. they made us all start out there as county police. you know, it's up believable what happened in these facilities. the public sometimes just doesn't understand the society in there. but the noise is not unheard. it maybe unrecognized as being an escape plan or if it's heard by an inmate who knows what it is, he just keeps his mouth shut. you know, a silencer does not totally elimb that the sound of a gunshot. it reduces the sound so far that you don't recognize it as a gunshot. so it sounds like a screen door slamming and you don't really register it. you still hear it you still hear noise. and the same can be done if there's legitimate construction

going on in the facility and they are masking their cutting with the same activity. so, if there's saws going on for some improvements that are legitimate, these guys can then cut a steel at the same time. so it may be heard but not recognized. so, that's another one. >> you said this we don't understand the society within prisons. tell us a little bit more about that. >> well, it's -- everything is magnified. we talked about thatter yefrm everything is magnified a big deal. inmates are always playing long game for an advantage. they want an advantage. even if that advantage is not escape, it is an advantage for something. they want extra books to read. they want extra cigarettes to smoke. they want extra privileges, food, a change in cell, a change in facility. but they want a reduction in sentence, they want a new hearing, they want a different lawyer. they want more stuff than anybody on the outside wants. they want, want, want. and they always are may beplayi

game for it. just the stuff they get in the eyes of the step citizens, we s them as minimal. in their eyes it is huge. huge. i am not surprised at all by the hot plate and the bay the corrections officer reacted to it, inmates make a big deal out of that a big deal for him. he fell for it he fell for it. they used it as cover. it is very difficult, like you thought, page, you recognized and everything, clint and the nypd officer did as well, help the officers inside get some training by psychologists to recognize the long games being played on them and -- >> manipulation. >> the manipulation of you and how to defeat that and keep everybody safe. it is a difficult job. i have faith in governor cuomo and commanders in there he has been on top of this, in front about it, i think he is clearly upset about it. i just cannot see the governor

just doing nothing. i really think he is going to take some action, some definitive actions for the whole department of corrections to improve it, to change it, to fix it. i see that pretty quick. >> we will see though. of course that also requires money. it will be interesting. the watch towers were unmanned. does that surprise you sore tor that something uncommon? >> that surprised me. i think it does happen because everybody thinks, well, they are not getting over these 40-foot walls, not to worry. depending on where those towers were located, that can be a tremendous advantage to matt and sweat. if the manhole was in sight of one of the towers and the tower was unmanned. i don't know if it is or not i comment tell from the map, if the dour have seen the manhole, but i mean, if he is there an officer in the tower and two guys pop out of the manhole, that's risk to them. they know that those manholes

are unmanned. i'm sorry, those towers are unmanned when they are going to come out of the manhole that is a great advantage to them. that's how they seem. one of the famous breakouts, "escape from alcatraz," the inmates studied for years, as i recall, it was maybe 13 years. and they watched a corrections officer in a gun gallery above the locked door where they were in would drop a can of string down whenever that had to be opened. they watched toer years, how that happened. they studied it. when ever anybody had to come in or out, the officer in a gun gallery, completely behind bars, completely separated from anybody that could protect him, to drop a key down and the lower door was opened and they bet their whole eskcape on it. this is one of the later attempts. and what happened just by chance that night hurricane the officer didn't drop the key, he put it in his pocket and they tried to make their escape and busted

out, their whole escape didn't work because that one little thing wasn't the same as it was every day for years. the change. so, these how meticulous they are. >> these two -- these two men apparently didn't plan on not having miss mitchell meet them. they didn't have a backup plan, so shocking, given how much planning went into their escape. >> she is the only person they had access to manipulate. they couldn't map nip late anybody else. there is no one on the outside for them to manipulate. they are just too vicious. they are not members of a criminal organization or gang. they had nobody that would come help them. they are not al qaeda. they don't have someone willing to die for them. they had joyce mitchell. they played her. they worked her. they threatened her. i think that was their undoing, because, you know, mitchell's husband told matt lauer in the interview that joyce mitchell told him that matt had threatened her, matt had threatened to hurt her if she

didn't go through with the plan. and that scared her. and i think matt's viciousness there probably was his undoing. he scared her too much. and then she didn't go. once that happened, it was all over, just a matter of them running out of candy. >> so you think they just didn't have a backup plan because they didn't have that kind of support network, they didn't have any network outside of her? >> right. right. i don't think -- right. and they are not archcriminals, we want to assign, they've cl clever plan like this and get out of the facility, we want to assign them great genius-level thinking and planning. that is not what they have. they get ahead in the criminal world just because they are so dang vicious. >> right. that's how they -- >> sweat escaped from his armed robbery because he was so vicious to kill that deputy hero, shot him 22 times.

matt's the same way. you know, vicious murderer of his boss and dismember the body. not because they were great or clever or brilliant, just because they are so vicious. and that viciousness really is what led joyce to be scare and the -- scared and not show up. that didn't help them. i don't think we are going to find out that much more intriguing information. >> about these two.