but, i mean, i think the notoriety of this has reached the point nationally and internationally that people want to know what happened here. and if he's going to cut a book deal with some attorneys or a movie deal, you know, we've already heard there's possibly a tv show. >> right. >> a tv movie coming out about it. then what's he got to lose by not talking about it? >> exactly. i want to recap if people are just tuning in right now. the escaped prisoner david sweat was caught today in the town of constable where he was walking down a road. he is alive. he was shot in the shoulder. we believe he is in custody, and he's being transferred to the albany medical center. the governor will be speaking, governor cuomo, will be speaking at 6:45. and there's actually a rally that's going to begin right now outside of the corrections facility where he was. right now let's go to adam reese who's on the ground outside of the medical center. adam. >> reporter: just to recap, david sweat was shot just two miles south of the canadian border.

that is just five miles north of where we are. 48 hours after richard matt was shot and killed here. now, i just spoke with the malone police officer. he's right behind me. i asked him, how do you feel? he said he is incredibly relieved. he lives just three quarters of a mile from the location where sweat was apprehended. he said his wife is incredibly relieved. he had three kids at home. they were worried for three weeks. now there's some sense of relief. and julie molnar is joining me. not only does she live across the street from three jails, but she was here at the ambulance arrived. we have the video. tell me a little bit about what you saw as the ambulance arrived. >> well, i saw all the law enforcement people pulling up very quickly and blocking off the road. and i ran up as quick as i could to the parking lot where the ambulance was pulling in. and it was just -- it was very tense. >> reporter: tell me what you saw. obviously a lot of urgency as they moved him. what was the mood like among the

officers? what did you see? you saw a little bit of the stretcher going in? >> no, i didn't. i didn't get to see the stretcher. i was trying to get around, but they pushed me back. they didn't want me anywhere close. >> reporter: and what was the mood among the officers? >> they were very serious. very tense. >> reporter: let's talk -- you're a pastor, but you also live in a home that's across the street from three jails. so tell me a little bit about life here in malone for the last three weeks. >> well, actually, i live a little ways down from the jails. our church is across the street from the prisons. it's been very intense. i mean, people have been on edge. and people who don't normally talk about having a firearm close by them, they were. they wanted to make sure their family was safe. >> reporter: what were they telling you one on one as, you know, a pastor, confiding with their pastor? what were some of the anecdote taz thanecdotes about how really scared and worried they were? >> well, a lot of them said that they were praying with their families that they would be safe, and that's what we were also praying for all the people

in the area and especially the law enforcement that were out there every day. but people were just hoping and praying that it would be over soon. >> reporter: tell me the mood friday when one of them was shot and killed right here in town. what was the mood then? there was a lot of jubilation, a lot of cheering, but that quickly died down. >> yes, it did. you know, people were hopeful that they had the other one cornered. and there were a lot of rumors going around that they did. and we found out when the governor was speaking, i was there at the conference, troop "e" barracks, and he said they hadn't caught them again, and people were again going oh, now, we're back to square one almost. >> reporter: we were speaking earlier about what you said this morning during services. tell me a little bit about that, as one was down, still searching for the other, still a lot of concern here in malone. >> right. we well, my husband who pastors this church, he said we need to pray that he'll be found today. and we also need to pray for our law enforcement people, and we were just very thankful and grateful for all their

dedication and hard work. >> reporter: what are your feelings about the man inside the emergency room right now, inside here? >> well, i'm just glad that he's been apprehended, and i hope that they can get some answers from him as to what happened because there's a lot that they don't know. >> reporter: all right. well, thank you very much. we appreciate your time. >> okay. all right. >> reporter: david sweat is behind me. he's being treated. he was apprehended two pimiles south of the border, just five miles north of malone here, and we expect a press conference from the governor at about 6:45. back to you. >> and adam, is there any word on when david sweat will be transferred to albany? >> reporter: well, we don't know if that's the case. we thought early on if his injuries required that, if they were more serious injuries, he'd be taken to a trauma 1-level center in albany, but apparently he is still here. he'll be probably treated here, and detectives, investigators will certainly want to get to him as soon as possible to find out how did they get out. who was part of this plot to

escape from jail? we know about joyce mitchell. we know about gene palmer. we know about their involvement in what they gave, how they traded tools for artwork. we've learned all of that. but were there others involved? and once they were out here in the wild for three weeks, the adirondacks, dense mountains, how were they able to survive? did they get help from corrections officers? we know that a lot of these cabins in the area are owned by corrections officers. some were saying, well, that's kind of a little weird. was there a connection there? but there's so many corrections officers here, it's just quite possible that it was a coincidence they happened to land in a cabin that's owned by a corrections officer. so a lot of questions. they want to ask him and find out more about how he made his great escape. page? >> thanks a lot, adam. i want to go back to arthur roderick. arthur, it is a little bit suspicious, even at the time a lot of people were speculating that they would go to cabins that were owned by corrections officers. does that raise a flag for you? >> yeah, it does. and in these particular cases, i

really don't believe in coincidences. and they're really going to have to dig into that. you know, he could have heard about particular cabins that were -- well, either one of them could have heard, just in a passing conversation with a guard, but to go to that specific cabin, you know, somebody might have given them -- i mean, we've got two people that are being looked at right now that have possible involvement in helping them escape. those same two people could have given them locations of cabins that they knew that were owned by guards that possibly contained supplies, weapons, you know, food, clothing, all that type of stuff. >> right. because it seems very convenient. jim kavanaugh, i hope you're still on the phone with us as well. what do you make of that? >> yeah, page. i see that a little differently. i understand the question, and i think art makes some great points. i think it's a question that needs to be asked. but i see it a little differently in that i think

their plan ended when joyce dropped them at the manhole. i think that there's so many corrections officers in that little town of dannemora that they owned a lot of these cabins. and i think it would have been difficult for these guys, when that plot busted, to find their way through the woods to any specific cabin, in the middle of the night, in the rain. i think -- i think -- i don't -- i think the question must be asked like art described. i'm with him on that. i do think it must be asked. it has to be up covered. but i'm leaning more toward that it's just by chance because there's so many corrections officers up there. and really, they never had a plan to make it to a cabin 20 miles away. i don't think that was ever their plan. i think their plan was to get in the car and get really far away because 20 miles away, i mean, they would still feel the heat from a search from their escape. i think they planned to go, you know, a good drive away. maybe kill joyce.

>> right. >> take the car and, you know, drive up in ohio or something where they could cool off a little bit. the question must be asked, but i think it's likely to be just because there's so many of them up there. >> just a coincidence. >> yes. >> sort of a lucky coincidence for them. also we want to let our viewers know that right now there is a rally gathering in dannemora outside of the prison. a rally of support for all the law enforcement officials who helped in the capture of david sweat. it's really -- this has captured our attention so much, jim, national attention about this escape. you know, people were talking about movies and books. how do we make sure that these guys don't become butch cassidy & the sundance kid and don't become folk heroes? >> right, well, i think your reporting today has been spot on on that. talking about just who they are. the reporters on the scene up there, nbc, talking about just who they are and how vicious they are and what killers they are, and they're not geniuses or anybody to be admired.

their families were afraid of them. they probably would have killed joyce. the citizens were behind law enforcement. you know -- >> they're depraved. >> and hollywood -- you know, listen. there's great script writers in hollywood, and they could write some great mysteries and movies and prison movies. they don't need these guys, really. they don't need these guys to write those plots. >> right. >> they're free to pay attention to the news, but they certainly can write a plot that's even more intriguing, and we go to the movies all the time and watch those. so i'm not so sure all the hollywood writers are that enamored with it, you know. really they're just a couple of losers, and they were able to stay out there just because they had a bunch of rain they could drink, a bunch of candy and some provisions from some mountain cabins that they broke in and stumbled upon, some peanut butter and stuff. i don't think it's -- when you really analyze it, it's not steve mcqueen and "the great escape." it really isn't. >> and they weren't robbing banks. they were killing people,

dismembering people, torturing people. they're depraved human beings. >> exactly. exactly right. spot on. they're losers. they couldn't even escape, really. they sent -- i do think they plotted for months in there to get the saws, to get the bits, you know, to get the drill bits from joyce and to get on the catwalk, to scheme, the hot plate, all these little things. that took them many months. but it consumed most of their planning, i think. and short of that, it was get the car and, you know, hey. it's all going to be great. you know, we'll be in the caribbean. well, you know, not really. >> not really. >> they didn't really think it that deep. i don't know if that's a movie plot. it's kind of a loser plot, really. >> yeah. zeke, what are your thoughts on this? >> well, you know, if you look at the totality of the circumstances from when these men were originally arrested before they were put in prison, all the way through their history in prison, now you have an escape and a mastermind escape through a major security

penitentiary, then a manhunt. i have to disagree. i mean, these guys are animals, and i was hoping the other one would have been shot fatally. but i have a feeling that we're going to see more of this guy than we think. >> don't even say that. okay. i want everybody to stay with us. i'm page hopkins. we've been reporting on the capture of david sweat who is alive. he is in custody. governor cuomo will be speaking out at 6:45 eastern time. we're going to take a quick break, and we're going to come right back with more on this developing story.

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people. that is the sight of an ambulance carrying david sweat pulling up to the alice hyde medical center in malone, new york, after he was shot walking on a road in constable, new york. again, after david sweat was caught -- you can hear the cheers -- caught walking on a road in constable, new york, and shot by a police officer, he was brought to the alice hyde medical center. he was in that ambulance that you are looking at, a sight for sore eyes. we heard some cheers. there's also actually a rally going on in dannemora outside of the prison. you can see that, people clapping and cheering. we were just trying to listen and hear what some of the people are saying. but they're clapping in support for the police officers and all law enforcement officials who helped in the capture of david sweat. a lot of relief up in the town of dannemora today. obviously.

a lot of smiles on those people's faces. let's go back now to larry lawton. we were just talking about, larry, the danger that these guys might become folk heroes along the lines of, say, butch cassidy & the sundance kid. what are your thoughts? >> well, obviously people are going to get to know who they are. i mean, even the regular person is going to get to know who this guy is because of what he did. i think after time, because they only went away for three weeks, got away for three weeks, it wasn't like the eric rudolph who went away -- you know, got away for five years. so i do think it will wear its way down. i understand what somebody said about a tv or a movie deal. you know, they do get around that kind of stuff. but he won't be able to reap any benefits of any of this. and anybody who thinks he's not going to be in confinement for a long time doesn't understand the prison system and what it's really about.

he's going to be in confinement, and that's 23 hours a day lockdown. >> but someone was suggesting that perhaps through a lawyer if he did, in fact, write a book or screenplay or whatever, that he could reap benefits by having the money placed in certain trusts for perhaps family members. so there would be somebody benefiting from this. >> well, you know, again, there's going to be a lawyer who's going to come and try to figure out a way around anything. but i don't think he's going to -- i mean, what trust can they have that it's not going to be somebody, unless he signs all rights away to somebody else, which i'm sure anything can happen. anybody could say anything. but somebody said they think he'll talk for that reason. i think there's just -- unless his personality is just so narcissistic to just say what it is and i'm the man and i did it, if he wants to have any kind -- i'm salking about a semblance of getting an extra milk. and you know what i mean. when you're in that hole and when someone -- or just letting a guard pass another milk from

one cell door to the other, now, you know, how it's going to be for the next year or two, it's going to be, of course, lockdown. but again, maybe because of this, the whole system changes and they can start taking the right levels of inmates with the right levels of inmates and justifying some of this stuff. >> i want to bring back arthur roderick. arthur, do you think that we're likely to see some prison reform nationwide as a result of this? >> well, i definitely think you're going to see some prison reform in new york. you know, obviously, i think the inspector general in new york is already looking at this particular case, looking at how inmates are classified, looking at what benefits that they're receiving. you know, to me it just is unreal that two individuals that committed murder are in the honor block. that doesn't make any sense to me. and they weren't being monitored on a regular basis.

now, whether it spreads nationwide, i mean, there are associations out there. there are conferences where all this type of information is passed. you might see something happen nationally, but, you know, we do have a huge problem with overcrowding in just about all our facilities around the country. and i think as far as classification and putting prisoners in the right areas, that is one of the main issues is that there's just so many of them that it's difficult to go ahead and handle that type of influx of prisoners. >> and of course, right now we're hearing cheers as law enforcement officials go through the streets of dannemora, all the local people. so happy and grateful that david sweat has been found. this really -- the more we're learning about what went on in that facility, is this systemic? is that pretty typical of a lot of corrections facilities, that it's really a very separate world with a very separate code of behavior and hierarchy?

>> well, page, i mean, it's -- i mean, in the federal system, which i've dealt with most of my career being in the u.s. marshals, the federal system is very strict, and it's very professionalized. and you have strict guidelines that are put out by the federal bureau of prisons. in state and local facilities, county facilities, city jails, maybe not so much -- i could probably let somebody else comment on that. i know that the marshals service houses, at any given point, about 60,000 prisoners that are awaiting adjudication in court before they're turned over to the bureau of prisons. and the marshals service goes out and actually makes sure that whatever county or state facility, that the individuals are being housed in meet certain standards. but that doesn't go nationwide. >> right, right. and maybe that's what we're going to see more of. we're going to take a quick break right now. we want to remind our viewers that governor cuomo will be

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welcome back. you are looking at a podium where the governor will be speaking at 6:45. david sweat was captured this afternoon walking on a street in constable, new york. he was shot at after he was asked to freeze and drop to the ground, which he did not, and he was apprehended. he was brought to a medical facility. he is in custody. we believe he's going to be moved to albany, to an albany medical center at some point today. but take a look at this. those are people in dannemora so happy and grateful to law enforcement for capturing david sweat. we've been watching them gather for a rally amidst the rain, and they've been cheering every time a police car goes by. and congratulating the local police officers, and obviously a tremendous time of jubilation and relief for a lot of people

who were locking every door, not to mention sleeping with their firearms close by in some cases. i want to go right now to zeke unger, a bounty hunter. zeke, what can you tell us about the last few weeks? once they got out -- and i realize this is speculation, but based on your experience with people on the lam, when they broke out of prison and they saw that joyce mitchell was not there with the getaway car, what then? >> well, as a former marine, as one of them was, adapt and overcome, i don't really think they had a plan "b," but they sure came up with something real fast because they were able to elude the perimeter for 22 days. it slowed them down. it kept them from going further than they did, but they were able to get into that rural area where it took a while to get -- flush them out. >> it's quite incredible. we understand that they had a big bag of candy which they brought with them to sustain themselves. but are you surprised that they eluded law enforcement for three weeks?

>> no, not at all. it's -- actually, this is fairly timely. as you know, fugitives sometimes we see months and years. the tight perimeters, the canines, the special enforcement units, everybody working together really flushed these guys out quick. their minds were mush. you have to understand the high stress of being a fugitive on the run for 21, 22 days ends up walking down a road. this tells you exactly how much stress the human mind has taken over that time period. >> and what about what lays ahead for david sweat when he goes back to jail? we've been talking a great deal about that today. but is he sort of going to face a conflict within himself, i guess, you know, for murder who probably hasn't been very int introspective, but is he going to have to decide, do i rat out people, and maybe i'll get more favoritism in my next incarceration, or do i keep my mouth shut? >> well, he's going to be

incarcerated for the rest of his natural life. and i think he's not going to debrief. i think he's going to get an attorney. i think that he's going to stay to himself. i think it would be very rough for him in there if he chose to speak. so i think he will choose not to. >> even if he were in solitary confinement, which we assume he will be? >> absolutely. >> you think it would still be rough for him if he spoke? >> absolutely. >> just because of the code. okay. we are going to take another quick break but want to let you know that we are waiting for governor cuomo to speak. he'll be speaking in about 15 minutes. we're going to carry it live. again, fugitive david sweat caught this afternoon at 3:20 p.m. walking on a street in constable, new york. we're going to continue to follow this developing story. seems like we've hit a road block.

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welcome back to msnbc's coverage of this developing story, the capture of david sweat. you are looking at the podium where governor cuomo will be speaking in just 15 minutes. we're going to carry that live for you. and on the right side of your screen, you can see people outside of the correction

facility in dannemora, holding signs of support for law enforcement who captured david sweat. of course, one of the two fugitives whoes escape has kept all of these people on edge for the last three weeks. i want to go now to adam reese who is outside of the alice hyde medical facility in new york. and he actually has some updates for us. adam. >> reporter: page, i'm actually on the backside of the hospital. i am at the emergency entrance where they have set up curtains to protect the ambulance. he will go back in that same ambulance from constable. and he will be transported, we are told, to a local helipad and then choppered over to albany medical center for treatment at a trauma center there. apparently his injuries were such that he could not be treated here at the local hospital in malone, that he needed to be transported. i can tell you there's a small crowd here. they were cheering earlier when he arrived. and this was just a little bit of a cheer when they thought he was about to depart.

and i can bet that they'll be cheering as he leaves. there is some movement, so we expect he will be placed back into that ambulance from constable, transported to a local helipad not too far from here under intense security, page. there is very heavy security from the state police here. numerous vehicles. it will escort this ambulance over to that helipad, and he'll be choppered into albany where he will be met by more security there and taken to the trauma center in albany. page? >> so we can assume that he does have serious injuries as a result of that gunshot to the shoulder that could not be treated at the alice hyde medical center. >> reporter: it would appear that way, that they're serious enough that he needs a level 1 trauma center. and just to recap, just a few hours ago at about 3:20 this afternoon, sergeant jay cook, apparently alone, of the new york state police, spotted a suspicious man walking down a roadway in the town of constable.

he apparently yelled "freeze!" and sweat apparently ran back into the woods, according to one report, and he shot and injured him, and he is now here in the emergency room at the alice hyde medical center in malone about to be transported to albany for care at a trauma 1-level trauma center. and we're awaiting any moment a police escort to take him there. >> okay. thanks so much, adam. we'll check back with you in a minute. i want to bring back clint van zandt. clint, are you surprised at how sophisticated this plan was that these two inmates hatched? and yet they didn't have a plan "b" for joyce not showing up? >> yeah. and for most prison escapes that we've looked at over the years, there's always been two parts. there's the part inside. realize that's the part that the inmates actually control. these two manipulating sociopaths, psychopaths, they were very comfortable being in

control, cutting through pipes and punching through bar -- walls. these were all things that they could do. but the only control they had, once they got outside, because they didn't have family, they didn't have friends, they didn't have money to buy a getaway driver or anything like that, all they had, we're told, is joyce mitchell who by either hook or crook said she would meet them after midnight when they popped up through that manhole. when she didn't show up, everything fell in. and for the next three weeks, they were on the run, dodging law enforcement left and right. but i think everybody knew that two days ago when matt allegedly shot at a camper van that was driving past him, perhaps in an attempt to hijack it, that driver reported to the police he had sustained a round through his vehicle, that's when this thing started to get resolved. that's when law enforcement had a new ground zero to look at.

and i think that's when everybody became comfortable, we're only a couple of days away from having these two back in custody. >> in terms of prison outbreaks, was this a terribly sophisticated operation they pulled off? >> i think this is probably one of the more sophisticated because it takes -- there's multiple levels of it. number one, it's obtaining the tools. number two, it's taking this year's worth of time to punch through the walls and to get in the catwalks and to find their way through and to be able to cut off locks on the manhole. number three, it's manipulating people within that prison who would help them bring them tools, support them. and realize every night they had to have this hole from their cell that went back behind the wall, and because we're told one of the employees brought them paint from the outside, that was likely used by them to paint

some cardboard or something to put in place under their bed that defied the prison guards' ability to see where they're at. now, you know, one of your other guests may have commented on this, but one of the things some prisons do when they're dealing with dangerous people like this is every month, two months they put them in different rooms. they change them in different cells so they can't get that comfortable. in this particular prison, it looks like they were trying to keep some of these inmates on the honor ward comfortable so they wouldn't act up. well, you can't keep them comfortable and keep them safe at the same time, it appears, and that's where the system broke down. >> and i want to bring in larry lawton. larry, how did they accomplish all of this without anybody noticing? >> well, like he said, they had a lot of help from the other people in the prison. i mean, i think you're going to find out more things that people

helped them. and it could be other inmates, whether it was orderlies who brought them stuff and little stuff that, you know, helped them. and i also think they worked -- and i don't know this for sure yet, but i think they worked what they call cms which is the behind the scenes, the guys that do the electrical work, the plumbing work, carpentry. in prison they're usually inmates and they go around with the guard, they'll fix the stuff. the guard will be monitoring them. and while they're doing that, they're actually getting behind the walls. i always said from the beginning, there was more people involved than this one outside worker because how did these guys know the schematics of the prison, you know, where that pipe led to, that that pipe led to that spot? i don't think that girl knew that those pipes or the plans. i think they either worked in the prison industries where they can go back and look at the plans or something or, you know, there's going to be a lot -- they're going to find out a lot

of rules weren't followed in the prison. >> i want to bring in sherry burkeman now on the phone. she was in the area when david sweat was captured. sherry, what can you tell us about that? sherry? >> pardon? >> sherry? >> yes, i'm here. >> what did you observe? you were around -- you were there when david sweat was captured. what can you tell us about it? >> we actually came upon them standing in the road, the state troopers, and then running after him and surrounded him. when it was all going down. >> so you were just driving along the road? >> correct. we come upon three state troopers, so we pulled over. >> uh-huh. >> and a few of them were pointing. it was an open field. there were two or three standing in the road pointing and yelling some things, and then they just took off into the field, and they surrounded them. we could see around them. >> you saw david sweat. >> correct.

well, from -- yeah. >> from a distance. >> yeah. which we're assuming it was him, i mean. >> and they shot at him, or we have received reports that he was shot at. >> correct. >> because he wouldn't stop. >> that was obviously before either when we pulled up on it or before we had gotten there. >> and then you saw the police officers apprehend him? >> correct. they all just kind of ran right out into the field, and they surrounded him at that point. >> and then what? >> he was on the ground. >> and then an ambulance came up? >> well, they had told us to leave. a half mile down the road. we had taken off, and then, then we seen the ambulance going by. >> do you live in the area in. >> yeah, we're half a mile. >> so i imagine you've been on edge for the last three weeks. >> yes. >> so did you immediately think this might be the fugitive? >> well, we were actually out of town for a week, and i didn't really think that because we were warned that there was, you know, thousands of officers around. and when there's only three

state troopers, it didn't really dawn on me at first, and then wow, that it was happening. >> it must have been quite a sight. >> i expected to see a lot more, i guess. >> and how many officers were there? >> there were three state trooper cars when we arrived. we seen three or four in the road and a few running into the field. >> okay. and you shot some video that i understand you've given over to police? >> correct. >> okay. sherry burkeman, thank you so much, an observer who actually saw david sweat get apprehended. we are going to take a short break. we're going to come back and listen to govsher cuomo give a news conference about the capture of david sweat, so keep it right here on msnbc. ♪ turn around

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a podium, and that is where governor cuomo will be speaking momentarily. again, if you're just tuning in, we want to let you know that fugitive david sweat was caught this afternoon around 3:20 p.m. by new york state police sergeant jay cook. he saw sweat coming out of the woods in constable, new york, walking down the road. sources say sergeant cook thought sweat looked suspicious, told him to freeze. the sources say then sweat took off down the road. cook fired, hitting him at least once in the shoulder. sweat was handcuffed, taken into custody, placed on a gurney. he also was taken to the alice hyde medical center for treatment. he is momentarily going to be transferred to the albany medical center for further treatment because his wounds warranted that kind of attention. i want to go now to jim kavanaugh. jim, we are waiting for the governor to speak. so you'll have to excuse me if i have to cut you off if he gets up to the podium. but what does the capture of david sweat do to joyce mitchell's defense? >> yeah, well, joyce has got a tough case against her already,

page, because she's apparently given a statement to the new york state police detectives about her role in the incident. she's made some statements -- she was charged based on those statements. and they have quite a bit of evidence against her. i don't know that sweat -- i mean, certainly he could add to that evidence, but i don't know that it's necessarily required for the d.a. to prevail in that case. sweat may have some information from some other incidental help inside the walls like one of your guests was talking about, some orderlies or trustees or other inmates might have helped them with small things. but i don't think there's going to be large things because the high point, the high watermark, the zenith of this whole plot ended at the manhole cover. i mean, these guys had a great plot until they got to the manhole cover and joyce wasn't there. so the intrigue is all there, the month of planning, the saws, the drill bits, the access to the catwalk, cutting through the steam pipes, busting through the wall, carrying a guitar case full of candy, you know, all

those kind -- that's all very intriguing until you get to the manhole cover. >> right. >> and then it becomes pretty stupid, you know. running into the woods and that's about it. breaking into cabins. it really isn't very intriguing after that. i mean, the citizens were behind the police in new york state. when the citizens are behind the police, you're not going to get away. that's what happened here. everybody's reporting. they're seeing. they're calling. the state troopers, the commanders, they deserve to be commended. they kept the pressure on. they kept their head in the command post. they moved strategically when they knew that matt was spotted friday. they moved the customs and border protection tactical team in there. you know, matt shot in the head three times. we haven't heard if that's one tactical agent that shot. it might have been a three-shot burst from his rifle. a lot of times those rifles are fixed like that, or it could have been two or three agents who shot. so we don't really know. customs border protection will certainly outline that in the days ahead, i'm sure.

and here a trooper shoots sweat when he's trying to get away. and of course, sweat is a guy who poses an imminent risk of danger or serious bodily injury to any citizen he might come across, a desperate killer on the run whose partner's been killed, and here the state police have stopped him. you know, a good day for the police and the citizens of thne york. >> to get back to my original question, is it a good day for joyce mitchell? >> yeah, i think it's a neutral thing for joyce mitchell. i mean, i don't think that the d.a. needs sweat to convict joyce mitchell. her statements, the evidence they've gathered, i think they have a solid case on joyce mitchell. sweat can always add to it by testifying against her, but i don't think it's absolutely required. i think she's already incriminated herself sufficiently for that charge. and they have the evidence. they have whatever communications were between them be it cell phones or texts or writings. so, you know, i think they have a solid case against her. it doesn't hinge on sweat.

if sweat was killed, i think they would still be able to convict joyce mitchell. >> do you think they're able to get any information out of him now? we understand that his injuries must be somewhat serious because they have to transfer him to albany. what do you think? >> yeah, it's going to be hard -- yeah, it's going to be a hard question. my feeling is he doesn't have any information that's of tremendous import. i don't think he has any great, great information that the state police detectives don't already know. i think they've already determined how those power tools probably were accessed. they know what joyce did. they know the role the other correction officer played, you know, by breaking some rules but not actually knowing about the escape. i think they know 95% of it. i think there could be some gaps he'd still in. but i don't think there's blockbuster information that he holds that's crucial to either one of the prosecutions of those two defendants or to any vast conspiracy outside the walls because i don't think it exists. i mean, the vast conspiracy couldn't even get them a car

ride out of the woods there. so i don't think it really exists. >> i want to bring in arthur roderick. what do you think? do you agree with jim that there's really not much more information to get out of david sweat? >> yeah, i absolutely agree. i think the only information that would be nice to get out of david sweat would satisfy our curiosity as to where he went after they came out of the manhole cover. i think we said from day one that, you know, that planning this escape, the inside planning was really unique considering all the levels that had to be taken care of. and they just went ahead and, you know, only had one plan on the outside. and when that fell through, they just took off on foot. and i think just from a curiosity point of view, i would like to know exactly where they went and what they did from the time they got out of the manhole cover. >> and how they went unnoticed. >> yes, correct. >> for three weeks. >> yes. i think when, you know, i've actually been up in that area just a few months ago, and it is very rugged terrain.

i've actually also been involved in manhunts and that type of wooded area. and i'll tell you, if you can see your hand in front of your face outstretched, you're lucky. and i can understand how they could have avoided not only detection if they were traveling at night, but also hiding out in cabins during the day and getting whatever food and water that they needed from those locations. but i think eventually, obviously with the stress of all this coming down on them, it was just a matter of time, especially when you close that gap, we knew two weeks ago that they were in this cabin, 100% from the dna. so we closed that gap from the time they were in a jail to two weeks ago, and then we had this, obviously the shooting of matt here on friday. so that got us closer. then it was just the clock was ticking. and it was just going to be a matter of time before sweat was picked up. >> you talk about the rugged terrain up there, and there's been a lot of discussion about how difficult it's been for law enforcement. but it was also difficult for

these two guys. they've been sitting in prison for the last several years. they aren't survivalists. so the question is how the heck did they navigate through that terrain, and if you could describe it to us, and stay ahead of police for three weeks? >> yeah, it's hilly. it's very thick brush, heavily overgrown. obviously this is end of june, coming up on july. you could see it was raining up there today. it's been on and off rain since they've gotten out. so the greenery really provides some good cover for them. and then just the area is completely dotted with cabins and summer homes. and it was just a matter of which one they'd pick and which one they could hide out in. you know, we've heard talk of them only traveling at night. and of course, that does put an extra burden, and then they can't see very well. and law enforcement did have access to forward-looking infrared from the air and also had night-vision equipment on

scopes and binoculars. >> i was just asking jim this. what are your thoughts about what this does to joyce mitchell's defense, the capture of david sweat? >> yeah, it seems to me that i think jim's right on, too, on that point. that they probably have got everything out of joyce mitchell. it sounds like she's confessed to everything because more details are coming out every day as to exactly what she did and how she was going to assist them. so i think they pretty much have her boxed in at this point. sweat might be able to add some stuff to it. i'm not sure she even has any exculpatory information to help her out. but he might be able to add something to it, but they pretty much have her -- pretty much have her nailed down. >> and larry lawton, i hope that you're still with us. what do you think this does to joyce? >> well, you know, i agree with the guys about information.

i mean, i think he might have information just on the whole totality of the prison itself and what goes on. but i think she could be relieved that they didn't kill anybody, hopefully when they clear all the cabins. you know, because i think if there was -- somebody got hurt in this whole incident besides those guys, that it could have been more on her. it could have been maybe an accessory. i don't know how the law would work on that, but it might be. so i think she's a little bit relieved at that point that nobody got hurt. now it's about, you know, introduction of contraband. >> okay, larry, i'm so sorry, i have to interrupt you because we have a picture up of david sweat when he was captured. okay there he is. obviously bedraggled, does not look like he's been sleeping in the lap of luxury for the last few weeks. but he does -- he is alive. and he's sitting up. kind of remarkable given everything he's gone through. larry? >> absolutely. absolutely. i think, you know, him

surviving -- but i think what a lot of people don't realize, prisoners are survivalists. they have a lot of patience. they learn how to make things out of nothing. so in a way, they are survivalists. but they also have what they call sensory overload when they get out. and what i mean by that is, the average person today will make 1500 choices. what they're going to wear, what they're going to eat, et cetera. >> right. >> the average inmate makes 100 choices. so getting out, it's sensory overload. it's just a natural reaction of being incarcerated for a long time. >> and i'd love to get the other people's reaction to this picture. clint? how do you think he looks? >> you see the one officer with his hand on sweat's back, propping him up. he may be looking at the wounds. as you know, we've been told he's been hit either one or two times perhaps in that left shoulder. but, you know, he's sitting there. his eyes, his face, everything else. i mean, after having been shot and being in the woods over

three weeks, the guy doesn't look that bad. i mean, if he was -- if he was proned out, then we'd have a greater problem. you never know what that wound is going to do to him. that's why they're moving him to a trauma center where they can work on him better. you though, we're going to work very hard. we're going to save his life. and then we're going to lock him up for the rest of his life. >> and it looks as if he's even been shaving because he doesn't have a beard. >> yeah. and we're told that was the same thing with matt, too. that when the autopsy was done, there was different opinions. but at least one person suggested matt looked like he had shaved, looked like he had changed clothes. and i think what's interesting, too, you see the clothes that sweat has got on. he doesn't have on prison clothes. he has on clothes that he probably stole from somebody's hunting cabins to allow him to move around in the bush a little bit better. >> any reaction to this picture, arthur?

>> obviously he's got blood on the side of his face. and it looks like he might have some blood on his mouth which could indicate a lung injury. and i agree that i think the officer that's actually looking at his back is probably looking at a wound. and in that area could produce blood in the mouth coming up from the lung area. >> this is going to sound like a funny question, but i'm not trying to be. why would they even bother with shaving? wouldn't you want to grow a beard and disguise your face? >> well, not necessarily. i mean, they've been out for three weeks. if you're going to be looking at someone, if they're clean-shaven, you're not going to be thinking that they were hidden in the woods. so that's just another way of disguising yourself. i mean, having a heavy growth beard for three weeks, looking unkempt could lead to more suspicion than being clean-shaichb. clean-shaven. >> but he could have groomed a

beard just so he could disguise his appearance. >> but i think the pictures that were put out in the press earlier that did show the beard, they might have been able to get to -- you know, they might have observed that on tv and decided to change it. i mean, you know, i'm sure we'll know -- hopefully we'll know exactly what that's about, but it seems -- you know, in the autopsy of matt, that if he was shaven, then more than likely that was done to change their appearance. >> zeke unger, you're a bounty hunter. what are your thoughts as you look at this picture? do we still have zeke? >> high adrenaline for many days. he's wore out. and now shot. that's my opinion. >> and is that pretty much how you thought he would like when captured? >> absolutely. >> tired, pale? >> they say you can run, but you're just going to get caught tired. >> what do you think -- i mean, you've dealt with people who

have been caught like this. what is going through their minds? what are their emotions? >> believe it or not, right now he's feeling relief. the amount of stress that he's been under for the last 21, 22 days has been unmeasurable. again, having to do a crime to get everything, stealing, on the run, tired. these are the things that fugitives, you know, it happens when they're caught, they're so relieved, they say i just want to go back to jail. >> and i want to remind everybody that we're waiting for governor cuomo to appear at that podium and give a news conference momentarily. in the meantime, i want to bring in john cuff. who is joining us. john, can you give us your reaction to this picture? >> well, obviously, it appears that he probably cleaned himself up to a certain degree, but he picked up these camouflage clothing along the way somewhere. i mean, i know i just joined,

but this is a win-win for law enforcement today. it's a win-win for the public. it was a great ending. it's not over yet. but the amount of effort between law enforcement and the community involved, along with the media to get the message out is a great winning combination and great work. hats are off to all them. sergeant cook and all the entire law enforcement community up there on the ground that put all these tireless, many, many exhausting man hours into this hunt. >> do you think that this is going to shine a much-needed light on prisons and the culture within them? >> i think undoubtedly. there's a lot of unanswered questions. there's a lot of things that occurred and things that have been reported that happened during this particular investigation with respect to staff involvement and so on. mr. sweat here would be in a position to possibly shed some light on that to help answer

some of those questions. but in the long run, i think it will -- i haven't done many of these escapes, these after-action reports, you're always interested in lessons learned and how things can be improved. and certainly from the standpoint of correctional facilities for security improvements and so on. i'm sure this will serve as a template for corrections nationwi nationwide. >> it is the top of the hour. we want to let everybody know that we are waiting for governor cuomo to appear at that podium and speak about the capture of david sweat who you see on the left side of your screen. this was a picture taken right after he was apprehended. i want to go back now to jim kavanaugh. jim, we just heard that perhaps he's feeling some -- david sweat may be feeling some relief right now. that's what zeke unger told us who is a bounty hunter. what are your thoughts? what do you think he's experiencing right now? >> well, just to build on what john said, i agree. i think he is feeling absolute relief.