pefully this will put an ending to it. sam, great to have you with us tonight. keep up the good work in arizona. that is the "ed show." "politics nation with reverend al sharpton" starts now. >> tonight on "politics nation," the confederal flag controversy, one of the most important voices in this debate south carolina state senator paul therman, son of strom therman joins me live. we have breaking news from nbc universal on donald trump over his highly controversial immigration comment and we're learning what happened leading up to president obama's amazing grace moment and how history will judge the defining moments of the last few days. welcome to "politics

nation." i'm live tonight from chicago. we start with breaking news out of the supreme court. late today the court blocked a controversial texas law that would have forced most of the states abortions clinics to close. it's a win for progressives and will be watching the gop response because two other historic court rulings are giving starting with gay marriage. a ruling some gop presidential contenders just can't accept so they are telling clerks not to issue marriage licenses if they don't want to. >> if they have an objection, they should be excused. it shouldn't be said it's the law of the land because there is no enabling legislation. >> should they be allowed to opt out of issuing licenses? >> absolutely.

ours is a country built by men and women fleeing religious oppression. >> they are basically saying go defy the supreme court, and it's forcing candidates like jeb bush into a very tough spot. after the ruling bush called on people to quote love our neighbor and respect others but what will he say on a debate stage in iowa? maybe he'll highlight the need to quote protect religious freedom. that was also in the statement he put out. remember religious freedom bills in indiana and arkansas triggered massive protest and a big republican retreat. then there is that other ruling, the court upholding obamacare subsidies, the gop is unified on this one. >> i disagree with their decision. i believe obamacare is bad for americans, bad for the country.

>> first, as to the supreme court ruling i'm surprised, i'm disappointed. >> i think it was a poor decision. >> this is a real problem for republicans. history moves forward, not backwards. the american people are behind the rulings republicans can get on board or get out of the way. joining me now is salon.com joan walsh. she's been writing about the gop's never ending culture warps and democratic strategist tara. thank you both for being here. >> thank you. >> thanks rev. >> what do yaw make of some republicans saying openly is okay for clerks to defy the court on same sex marriage. >> it's outrageous. it's terrible and flies in the face of what american people want and the law to act like a supreme court ruling is a matter of opinion, reasonable people

can disagree and religious freedom allows them to deny people rights. i mean this weekend has been self-pitying self-victimizing comments from the guys. mike huckabee comparing people who oppose gay rights to african americans in the south fighting jim crow and comparing himself to dr. martin luther king and their validation for disobeying laws they believe are unjust. it's a cavalcade of self-pit the ty -- self-pity. they were handed an opportunity to turn the page to pivot away from these dee vieissues and move on to job creation i don't know what they would be but move away from the divisive issues. they won't do it because without culture wars they won't have anything. >> i see you shaking your head

nodding yes, tara. >> yes, absolutely i agree with joan 100%. one of the things she points out in her article and you state is this never-ending culture war. that's the point. they won't stop. they will not quit. i think and i want to note something, a note of caution to democrats from a strategy standpoint, they should not expect that these attacks from the republicans are going to seize. they will continue to attack the supreme court decision that basically gave everyone the freedom to love and marry. they are going to continue to attack obamacare and democrats made the mistake before thinking that once they got past one hurdle that the republican attacks would ss would seize and it's a never-ending culture war as joan pointed out. >> joan let me get this right, the same people that are calling president obama lawless are telling people to defy the supreme court? >> to defy the law, exactly.

i mean they are just so confused right now, reverend al. they don't know what to do about this, but, you know especially when it comes to obamacare, the affordable care act, they have no alternative and they are acting like paul ryan said you know we don't have to come up we don't have to fix this law, we're going to come up with alternatives. they are living in a fictional world where they created alternatives and popular. they haven't done that. we know they haven't done that and on gay marriage yes, they are the lawless ones. they are -- if they continue with this and you know what they are talking about in texas, they are talking about giving clerks permission to defy the law, they are the lawless ones. they are disochobeying laws. >> 64% of americans polled say keep obamacare and what joan was referring to in texas the

republican attorney general of the state says clerks can deny to same-sex marriages if they object on religious grounds. how far are republicans willing to go to defy the supreme court in your opinion tara? >> they will so long as they are in the middle of a primary because for the base, base voters, these have appeal to the far right who is the most fervent and active part of the base. you'll see them retreat to some extent during a general election but right now it's all about the primary and everything they do when you look at mike huckabee who carved out and looking to carve out the most right-wing part of the base, several of them competing for that. you'll continue to see the rhetoric. you'll continue to see this kind of obstruction of laws and what

i find really ironic when the supreme court pasted citizens united you didn't see them being to allow corporations to give unfettered amounts of money and pour it into the political system and they had no problem with that. there was no religious freedom on that. >> no objection on defying gutting out a huge portion. joan polls show that 60% of americans believe same-sex marriages should be valid. now is this really an issue that republicans like jeb bush want to be focused on? >> you know i think jeb bush believes he can play the this there is a middle ground which involves saying it's the law of the land that it's settled law but then as you pointed out, grabbing this dodge of religious freedom where again, they turn

themselves into the victims. they are victims of these awful laws. he thinks that will headachemake him the statesman. tara is right to warn us to think it's easy now. the media gives them a pass. the media is constantly looking for a republican to do the right thing, step up, be moderate move away from hate and get an ordinate praise when they make the slightest respectful descent noises, so jeb bush could get away with seeming like he's reasonable -- >> jeb bush -- >> because he's not saying defy the law. >> jeb bush is in a tough spot here tara. >> absolutely right. i'm going to piggy back on what joan said. she raises an excellent point. the media does pick out and give credit for things people should be doing. [ laughter ] >> so that's the thing that people like jeb bush benefit

from. i want to ring the alarm once again, democrats have to be very careful when we think the republican ideas are so extreme and out of touch and out of main stream that we don't have to worry about them. that is a really really bad way to look at things in these situations. we saw in 2010 we saw in 2014 that just because they are extreme, just because they do these things that we see as terrible doesn't mean that they don't resonate with a certain amount of people and those people won't come out and vote. we should never take for granted their ideas are so extreme it's going to come back to bite them because that's come back to bite us. >> good point. thank you very much joan watching tara again thank you for your time tonight. >> thank you. >> thank you rev. coming up the fight to take down the confederate flag and one of the most powerful voices on this issue. i'll be joined live by south

carolina state senator paul therman, son of strom therman. also tonight it's being called historic transformative and moe mentive. we'll look at a week to remember for president obama and what it means for his legacy and breaking news on donald trump over the controversial immigration comments. that's next.

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breaking news tonight from nbc universal on donald trump. nbc universal saying at nbc respect and dignity for all people are corner stones of our values. due to the recent derogatory statements by donald trump

regarding immigrants nbc universal is ending its business relationship with mr. trump. to that end, the annual miss usa and miss universe pageants will no longer air on nbc. in addition as mr. trump has already indicated, he will not be participating in the celebrity apprentice on nbc. celebrity apprentice is licensed from mark burnett's artist media group and that relationship will continue. trump was asked about nbc's decision today at an event in chicago. >> well, i think nbc frankly, i've had a great relationship with them. they didn't want me to run because they wanted to do "the apprentice." as you know they renewed "the apprentice."

i cannot do it because of the fact i'm running and as long as i'm running for president, they were not happy with it. they wanted me to do "the apprentice" and now with my statements on immigration, which happen to be correct, they will take a different stance and that's okay. whatever they want to do is okay with me. i had a lot of great relationships with nbc. i think as far as ending the relationship, i have to do that because my view on immigration is much different than the people at nbc. >> in nbc's statement, the company said it ended the relationship. in mr. trump's statement, he implies he did. msnbc is part of the universal family. coming up the confederate flag controversy, south carolina state senator paul therman, son of strom therman joins me next. ♪

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since the mother emanuel church shooting the whole country is watching south carolina and the fight to take down the confederate flag from the state house grounds. according to the charleston post and coreyer, two-thirds support taking down the flag. enough for the bill to pass. one of the most important voices in that debate has been state senator paul thurmond son of the late u.s. senator strom thurmond. he spoke on the senate floor, on the state senate floor last week about what that flag stands for and why it must come down.

>> our ancestors were literally fighting to continue to keep human beings as slaves and continue the unimaginable acts that occur when someone is held against their will. i am not proud of this heritage. we must take down the confederate flag and we must take it down now but if we stop there, we have cheated ourselves out of an opportunity to start a different conversation about healing in our state. i am ready. let us start the conversation. >> he said it's time to start a conversation, and i agree and not to stop at just a conversation. i did something last week i never thought i would do. i called state senator thurmond because it's a painful and awkward history we share. in 2007 a new york paper revealed that his forfathers,

the thurmonds owned my forfathers, a woman named anna thurmond owned a young boy carl coleman who was my great grandfather. despite the awkwardness and the pain, i saw the power in what he said and reached out to thank him for taking that position on the floor and saying we must start a conversation and not end there. it is in these awkward and painful moments that maybe history can possibly move forward. in that spirit you're watching something you will not see on television often, joining me is south carolina state senator paul thurmond. senator, thank you for being here tonight. >> thank you, reverend for having me. >> what made you decide the confederate flag should come down and why was it important to

speak about it. >> the events of that wednesday night were horrible. i woke up thursday morning to having a bunch of text messaging and, you know information about it. it was just shocking that nine people had been massacred in my town, in my state and in this country, and as a result i had gone to a prayer vigil. the prayer vigil was powerful. really fell felt the love from that process and pray about it. i talked with my wife on that friday. she asked me why would you want to continue to keep it up? are your reasons? after trying to come to reasons, i realized that i was just making excuses. this was really the right thing to do. on sunday we had a bible study on the book of mark that

referenced having sewing seeds and having the seeds and eating fertile ground and i started to make the analogy of these circumstances and how this tragedy could be turned into something positive and by monday morning, well i should -- let me step back a bit. on sunday afternoon, the families of these victims showed a tremendous grace and forgiveness to this monster, and one in which i know that i would, they had to have been led by the holy spirit and one in which i would be challengeed to do myself so on monday morning i woke up and i wrote that speech and joined the governor monday afternoon and tuesday i gave the speech in hopes of trying to convince my fellow legislators this was the right thing to do. i'll be the first to tell you, it was not the comfortable process for me. the most comfortable thing would

be to stand by that kind of statement that there was a compromise and should go along with the compromise but over that reflection that process, it just became very clear to me this was the right thing to do this flag symbolized racism and hatred. these radical groups continue to take this flag and use it in such ways to really perpetuate racism and hatred and so it's time for it to come down, and it's time to end the conversation -- >> so you are saying the flag represents racism and you're saying what the flag has represented to many of us that as you said on the floor held against their will and many of us have a lot of personal you and i have personal history, but we can't move forward by dismissing the past but we can contextize it and not duck from

the uncomfortable position of dealing with things and moving forward. you served there in the state senate with senator pickney who served in there and you supported the camera on police bill and why that became important. did the fact that senator pickney, someone you knew and advocated that make you have the courage to step outside of your comfort zone and the comfort zone of a lot of republicans? >> reverend absolutely. senator pickney is a man of god. he was somebody that even in public service, he never got railed ralled up. he was calm and listened to you and had a passionate voice when it came to the body camera bill.

he gave one of the most amazing speeches in regards to thomas and just made it very clear his tremendous capability. people have referred to him as a prod gee prodogy. he started preaching at 13. it had me step back and look at the circumstances and what the groups were supporting and made me reconsider and reevaluate why i was comfortable simply going along with the position that you know this was a compromise it should just stay in place. i found that to be an excuse. i was ready to address it. i felt like if i was going to address it i needed to talk to the body and let them know that process that i had gone through and encourage them to have their own self-evaluation, their own reflection and encourage them to support the flag coming down.

>> what kind of response have you gotten to that speech? >> oh, it's been absolutely overwhelmingly positive. i've gotten -- >> really? >> -- e-mails and texts and facebook messages from across the country. i've had people reference that speech and indicate that it brought them to tears. indicated that they had finally heard a politician be honest and they were just so appreciative of my courage to step out and, you know, it's a little overwhelming, not really a position i'm used to being in so i've appreciated them in return that they were willing to write and express their views to me. two things that i thought were pretty interesting, one person contacted me and indicated that they after hearing that speech they went out and took their confederate flag down that they were flying outside their house. i had another reference they had a confederate flag tattoo the on

their arm and they made an appointment with a dermatologist. it was a tremendous outpouring of support to very very few, maybe a half dozen that i've heard from. again, i'm not saying that in hopes that i'll get all those haters to start e-mailing me left and right, but it's been an amazing outpouring of support and encouragement -- >> well i think -- >> i think we've got the votes. >> i think the votes are supposed to be there and i think you're right and i think president obama is right that a conversation is needed but can't end there. we must go a long way. the fact that even in our awkwardness for us to talk about racism means maybe, just maybe if we continue being honest and straightforward, not saying what each other wants to hear we can start moving in that direction. when i called you, i said to myself, it's a shame it takes nine lives to bring us to this

point, nine innocent lives. what would be worse, senator, is if the we lost nine innocent lives and didn't move at all. state senator paul thurmond thank you for your time tonight. i really appreciate you being here. >> thank you very much for having me. still ahead, a defining moment for america and the obama presidency. how history will judge the huge achievements of the last few days. also some surprising allies in the push to fix our criminal justice system. i'll talk to a lawmaker at this heart of this fight. super poligrip seals out more food particles. so your food won't get stuck and you can enjoy every single bite. eat loud, live loud, super poligrip. super poligrip holds your dentures tightly in place so you never have to hold back.

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ahead in president obama's charleston eulogy, one issue he talked about is the urgent need to reform this country's criminal justice system. there is a bipartisan push in

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every time something like this happens, someone says we have to have a conservation about race. we talk a lot about race. there is we don't need more talk. >> president obama saying it's time for action when it comes to racial injustices in our society. south carolina will soon vote on whether to remove the confed redt confederate flag from a state house monument. it's a good start but on friday the president talked about taking the next step with real policy changes in everything from voting rights to schools to criminal justice reform. >> perhaps it softens hearts towards those lost young men. >> amen. >> tens and tens of thousands caught up in the criminal

justice system. and led us to make sure that this system is not infected with bias. >> america has more than 1.5 million inmates behind bars right now. there is 25% of the world's prison population right here in the u.s. the racial disparities are shocking. in this country, one in 17 white men will spend time in prison but for black men, one out of three will become inmates, but now, there is a new bipartisan push to change our prison system. perhaps the most ambitious reform bill in a generation. it comes from democratic congressman bobby scott and republican congressman jim. the bill would cut sentences for drug crimes and give judges authority and reduce sentences for some current inmates and

reduce sentences for people with good behavior. the republican sponsor says the current prison system is quote not only fiscally unsustainable but morallytic sponsor congressman bobby scott is joining me now. thank you for being here. >> good to see you reverend al. >> congressman, is there a growing consensus now across party lines we need to address this problem? >> i think you mentioned the fact that we have 25% of the inmates who only have 5% of the population. the incarceration rate has gotten to the point where many recent studies have said it's actually counterproductive. so manyeople in jail. messing up so many families. so many people with felony records, and you're wasting so much money that you're actually adding to crime not doing anything about crime. and so on the federal level, it's gotten so bad we don't know how many crimes we've created.

we're having sound bytes time and time again and run up the incarceration rate and the rate has not counterproductive. what we have come together democrats and republicans have noticed, if you getbytes, there is a lot of common ground. many states democratic and republican run states have experience where is they have actually reduced incarceration, saved money and had initiatives that actually reduce the crime rate. what we did in washington is bipartisan basis established in the house judicial committee an over criminalization task force where we looked at the entire criminal justi prevention and early intervention all the way to parole reform what we can do to reduce crime and save money in a cost-effective manner. >> you know i want to push co-sponsors, ten republicans and ten democrats. people from congress eli

comings to ted yoho how did you get people from such opposite point of view on board here? >> once you get away from the slogans and sound bytes, it's easy. you're faced with initiatives that will reduce crime save money. you know it's hard to disagree but you got to get away from the slogans. the initiatives that reduce crime and save money do not produce the emotionally charged slogans and sound bytes that some of the foolishness does. some slogans increase the crime rate. there have been studies that many increase the crime rate. so once you decide to get away from the slogans and get to the evidence, you're faced with a series of initiatives that will money, and that's something that i think everybody can agree on. >> you're dealing with real people because earlier this month i spoke to a woman granted clemency by president obama after serving 20 years to drug charges. listen to her talk about what it means to her. >> i want to be the voice for

all the hundreds of others with the same situations as me that are still in prisons waiting for their second chance. there are good people in prison than deserve a second chance and we can get out and become successful people in society. and i'm going to prove that correct, and i'm going to prove the naysayers wrong. we can do it. >> a second chance congressman. is that what your bill is about for many people and families who are affected by this? >> if you look at the president's commutation initiative he has a program where if you served ten years for a low-level non-violent drug offense, low-level none-violentnon-violent, do not have a significant role in the operation and have virtually no criminal record he will consider you for commutation commutation. if you're low level first offender, no violence how did you get ten years to begin with?

the answer is mandatory minimums were not designed to be inflicted on low level. they were designed to be imposed on the people that are actually running the operation, but you've got so many people in jail, most of the people in jail today are on drug offenses and most of them have mandatory minimums where they get sentences that violet common sense. we want to impose them on what's needed and the fact that people are getting these kinds of sentences and low level offenses shows what the problem is. >> yeah. congress bobby scott, thank you for your time tonight. >> thank you. straight ahead, we'll look at a weak to remember for president obama and what it means for his legacy and why that amazing grace moment almost never happened. benny's the oldest dog in the shelter. he needed help all day so i adopted him. when my back pain flared up, we both felt it. i tried tylenol but it was 6 pills a day. with aleve it's

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we're learning more about that unforgettable moment at reverent pickney's funeral. >> amazing grace. ♪ amazing grace, how sweet the

sound ♪ ♪ that saves, i was home but now i'm found ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> when the history books are written about president obama, this moment will be front and center, and it almost never

happened. the president wasn't sure he was going to sing until that very moment. the singing wasn't in the script. but this eulogy came at the end of the a monumental and historic week for the president where we saw national movement to take down the confederate flag from the supreme court upholding his signature health care law, to the supreme court affirming march tig equality to the aspiring amazing grace moment in you're a fan of his or not, there is no denying barack obama is officially one of the most consequential presidents in american history. he's been a transformative president, and he still has more work to do before he leaves office in dyson. thank you both for being here. to be with you. >> e.j. we almost didn't get that amazing grace moment. how will that moment be seen in the history of the obama

presidency? >> it will be seen as a moment of his own liberation that he felt free to do that and i think it will be seen as very much a piece with what he was elected to do not just program but bringing social checkange and changing people's minds. the words of that song i once was lost and now am found, once was blind and now i see, is all about transformation and you saw that happen in south carolina when that flag started coming down. we pray that it will come down. you saw that when people were confronting a raciest past that people were kind of sweeping aside under words like heritage and so i think the president will be noted for some real achievements like obamacare, but i think it will be a period of unprecedented social change in the country that's going to stick long after he's gone.

>> dr. dyson, the president not only sang but in his eulogy he talked about real national things, and what needs to be done beyond a conversation. listen to this. >> for too long we were blind to the pain that the confederate flag stirred in too many citizens for too long for too long we've been blind to the unique unique mayham and perhaps it softens hearts towards the lost young men. tens and tens of thousands caught up in the criminal justice system. we search our hearts when we consider laws to make it harder for some of our fellow citizens to vote. if we can find that grace, anything is possible. if we can tap that grace, everything can change.

>> dr. dyson, voting rights, gun laws substantive change that's going to be the hard part. certainly taking down the flag is important and we must go beyond that to these things but if we can't take the flag down we can't get even the more difficult things done. >> so great point reverend al. all of this at a funeral. all of this is the celebration of life and the grieving of death of a man who was incredibly courageous and whose death helped to solidify the real harm when president obama talked about the unique mayhem that is done to african american and other poor people in the country. the fact he was such powerful terms and as profe transformational terms. he spoke to the america's grief and elevated us to a point of celebration of our american ideals, which we hold in common and you're right, the flag is a

symbol of all that we aspire aspire. how do we look beyond this moment and transform the extraordinary embrace of our common humanity in the singing of that song amazing grace to make it real? how do we get governor hailey or senator gram to talk about removing the flag but policies in place, voting rights which are being viciously assaulted and the supreme court weakened considerably. how do we talk about the inconsidersin incarceration of latino men? that will give flesh to the skeleton that he so brilliantly put forth as that funeral. it was such a great sermon i thought you had written it for him, reverend. >> i had nothing to do with it. i sat there as most of the crowd did in watching absolutely i

mean, i couldn't describe because he really was so moving. but you know o.j. the devil is in the details and i think as dr. dyson outlined and the president outlined we have some battles ahead but i think that for this president to focus on those battles and for those of us that have been out there to remain disciplined and focused is going to be the challenge if we're going to really achieve the social change you're talking about. >> well, i think one of the things to talk about is some real change has already taken place in these six years, a little over six years that are i gus almost six years that we've gone through because you had obamacare, which got confirmed by the court this week in a way that's going to make it very hard to rule it out. what is that about? that is about social justice.

it's about millions of americans who didn't have health care and that worked. if you look at the stimulus program, that was about getting the american economy moving but there were a lot of measures in there that were particularly about lifting up some of the poorest people in the heart that things can actually be achieved and that when you see the chance -- >> as we keep going. you know, it's funny you say that because dr.president, president obama took office amid economy with a stimulus and auto bailout, passed wall street reform over fierce opposition implemente regulations aimed at client change and the first president to embrace marriage equality and presided over the landmark decision legalizing it nationwide yet he's the brunt of such criticism. >> stunning to think about what he's head wind, with the opposition and

obstruction of congress not with standing this man did such extraordinary things and without the kind of help that might have made him or permitted him to achieve even more. it's astonishing to think about how this particular week last week transformed his legacy because as e.j. deon said this is a substance of social justice program in terms of health care and obama's legacy will be extra ordinary. >> you know, reverend any president who tries to do a lot of things gets criticized a lot. that's been true, lord knows, lincoln and roosevelt got criticized plenty. he can expect more but that doesn't mean he's not getting things done. >> e.j. deon and professor dr. dyson, thank you for your time tonight. >> thank you, sir. >> good to be with you, reverend. coming such price trip at the mlk memorial today. that's next.

just a short time ago, president obama took the brazil yen en president on a tour of the mlk monument in washington d.c. according to the white house the visit provided the leaders an opportunity to reflect together on dr. king's life-long work for equality and justice and against

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as i reflected in talking with state senator paul thurmond about 2007 when a new york tabulate veal tabulate revealed to me it was the forfathers of thurmond, that's how i got the name sharpton, that's who owned him, never knowing his name. as i walked around the cemetery and that church in south carolina seeing the thurman tombstones and sharptons, i was to where they buried the slaves only pebbles on their places of rest. the silence in that cemetery of slaves was deafening. there will be noise on the far right and the far left about

what paul thurmond has done and he and i are talking but the whole sound that resonates from that cemetery is louder than any voices of division and hate. we need some grace. not regular grace but amazing grace to move forward. thanks for watching. i'm al sharpton "hardball" starts right now. what a week let's play "hardball." good evening i'm chris matthews in washington. this is an unusual time for prog