>> attorney general eric schneiderman gets tonight's last word. chris matthews is up next. trump towers. let's play "hardball." good evening, i'm chris matthews in washington. for the moment, perhaps the week, maybe the month, maybe the election year, donald trump is making the noise. the master of monopoly, the man in the gold tower has got gotham and the rest of the country talking. tonight we've got a lot of trump, but also all of the men who may replace him as the republican party's number one challenger to the political establishment. texas senator ted cruz, he's author of a new book "a time for truth" reigniting the promise of america. there he is and we have him with us tonight. thank you so much. you know, you have a fascinating background. the son of immigrants. you've gone from a guy who came here with nothing, right? >> yeah.

>> your dad, who you obviously love, without a buck in his pocket. you're born. you went to princeton. that's a good school, right? >> so i'm told. >> you became a great debater, you went to harvard law, united states senator in one big stump. let me ask you about this thing about trump. now, trump is out there still playing the birther card. i just want to get your reaction to some news in an interview he did. let's watch him again today expressing skepticism about whether the president of the united states is actually a natural born citizen of this country. let's watch him here. >> a few years ago you led the birther movement. you sent investigators out to hawaii to find out whether or not obama was, you said, was not born here. >> well, i don't know -- >> it turned out not to be true -- >> according to you it's not true. >> he released his birth certificate. >> he's sticking to his guns on that. on the day you announced your candidacy, senator, trump also said that you were born in calgary, your father was working up there, could be a hurdle for your campaign. let's watch him here. >> he was born in canada.

if you know and when we all studied our history lessons, you're supposed to be born in this country, so i just don't know how the courts would rule on it. but it's an additional hurdle that he has that nobody else seems to have. >> well, actually natural born means that you were born to american parents. you don't have to be naturalized. i think you're completely in the clear here, as i believe from the beginning the president is because trump, he has never said that the mother of barack obama is not the mother of barack obama. but what do you think of the fact he still says it's a hurdle for you? by the way, you're quite open about how you grew up and where you were born. >> well, sure, sure. look, i like donald trump. there are a lot of folks in washington right now that seem to be crawling all over themselves to smack donald trump. i'm not one of them. i think he's bold, i think he's brash, and i think he's got backbone. >> why does he say stuff about you? why does he say it's a hurdle for you when no one else is causing you trouble. by the way, george -- by the way, george romney was born in mexico to american parents. john mccain was born in the canal zone.

barry goldwater was born in arizona territory at the time. nobody made a beef about that. >> the legal question is quite straightforward. the child of an american citizen born abroad is a natural citizen. my mom was born in wilmington, delaware. >> this is great. a lot of your book has to do with a very powerful theme which is about, and i agree on this completely, the betrayal of the cuban revolution. when i was a kid and castro came to new york after knocking because of batista, he was in pajamas and we rooted like hell for him. he was a democratic successor to a horrible dictatorship and he betrayed all of us. has that got a lot to do with all of your politics? >> well, it certainly has a lot to do with my passion. what i describe in my book is i begin with my family's story. my dad, my great grandparents coming to cuba. my grandfather growing up on a sugar plantation and my dad as a teenager joining with castro and

revolution. >> he believed in it in the beginning. >> he did. now, none of the kids knew that castro was a communist. they knew that batista was corrupt, he was a dictator and in bed with the mob. as my dad describes it today, the revolutionaries were a bunch of 14-year-old boys who didn't know any better. so my father ended up -- he was thrown in prison when he was 17 and he was tortured in cuba. one of the things i have in the book is his mug shot with his nose broken where, you know, cuban soldiers, they'd come in every few hours and beat him with billy clubs. shattered his teeth, broke his nose. when he fled cuba it was '57 and he was just 18. he couldn't speak english. >> you also talk about how your aunt was sexually attacked. you were very careful and respectful but that's another problem with castro. >> it was -- >> a serious problem. >> and our family's story reflects that of a lot of people in latin america. where my dad fought with castro. '59, the revolution succeeds, castro declares as a communist,

begins executing people, seizing lands. and my aunt, she was still there and she fought in the counterrevolution against castro. she would with her friends burn down sugar cane fields and she ended up being thrown in prison and tortured by castro's goons. >> how do you feel now, or do you think about we're opening up diplomatic relations. we're going to have an ambassador there. will you ever go to cuba as long as fidel and raul are running the place? >> you know, i don't know. >> would you go back as a principal while they're still there? >> i disagree with the obama administration's approach to opening up cuba. i think it's the same type of approach that this administration has had to russia and to iran, that it's dealing with our enemies with weakness. i think the consequence -- >> a lot of people -- not everybody -- i agree there's some people on the left who may take that point of view. i don't know what obama believes but a lot of people believe opening up to cuba to freedom

and commerce and free enterprise is going to bring down the communist government. you don't think that? >> you know, i don't, particularly because the way the rules are set, all the money goes into the government. so billions of dollars are going to flow into the castros' bank books. each chapter. book "a time for truth" features a truth teller. and the very first truth teller that i feature is a gentleman named guermo. he used to be a communist soldier for castro. his nickname was el coco, still is. he's been on hunger strikes, been in prison, he's been tortured. a year ago he came to the states. i interviewed him and another dissident in spanish for about a half hour and he shared his story. he predicted what obama will do. he said don't do it, it will strengthen the castros -- >> so you don't think the influence of modern cars coming into the country, not just '57 chevys, but the influence of people coming in with new technology, new phone systems,

they're going to come in with money, the cuban people will be what have we been missing here because that's what turned the east germans into being wanting to be part of the west. you say that won't west? >> we can always hope and pray. but it seems to me that the obama administration should have used some leverage. so, for example, the opposition, the dissidents are still being picked up and still being tortured an still being imprisoned. and we've gotten effectively nothing in exchange for billions of dollars. it's much the same as what we're doing with iran, sending billions of dollars to that nation again in a way that's undermining our national security. >> let's talk about the book. you said some stuff in the book that i completely agree with from a more liberal position. when you first got into the senate leadership lunches and you realized it was all a game, basically their job was to protect the party, protect the leadership, and so you discovered it wasn't about stopping debt ceiling from rising, it was about avoiding responsibility for doing it. so all they want to do is lower the threshold to 51 votes so it

wouldn't be 60 and they could all vote against it and let the democrats pass it. >> yeah. >> by the way, when i first came to work on the hill, the democratic leadership would pass spending limits. iron-clad spending limit of $285 billion and then pass two amendments exempting it entitlements and any appropriation that went higher so games are being played. what about campaign financing. you've got a big pac out there like everybody else with all this money coming, $37 million. the american people are supposed to believe that the guy who's running who's benefiting from the pac money doesn't know about how it's being raised and doesn't know who's running it. but you know the guy's name. how do you avoid meeting him, winking at him, talking to him to keep noncollaboration because that's what people wonder about. they think it's a joke. is it a joke? >> let me take those two one at the same time. >> start with the senator leadership if you want. >> well, yeah. you mentioned what happened with the debt ceiling. and the opening chapter of the book describes what happens behind closed doors in the republican lunch.

>> i thought that was a good chapter. >> and it's entitled mens today tee. it really highlights what i try to do. i recognize not a lot of your viewers are likely to be ted cruz fans. but if your viewers are wondering why is this guy fighting for what he's fighting for. if your viewers are wondering what happens. what happens behind closed doors in the senate. what this book tries to do is shine a light on the corruption on the role of money, and it takes on both parties. >> so you're saying this is a good book to buy. >> i certainly am encouraging folks to buy it. >> by the way, that part of the book i completely agree with, but campaign financing has gotten to be a double game. i only take so much from my campaign, $2700 ahead. is that part of the corruption? >> absolutely. and the current system makes no sense. right now most of the candidates in this race, the bulk of their money is in super pacs where it's illegal to coordinate. who in their right mind -- i mean as the result of this race,

i'm not allowed to talk to folks who are going to be spending more money communicating my message than i am. that's idiocy. >> it's a joke because you write a speech, they give a speech and they know what your message is and they put it on television. this idea of secrecy or noncollaboration is a joke. >> and that's why i introduced lentil -- legislation and what it does is real simple. it would allow unlimited contributions from individuals directly to campaigning and require immediate disclosure within 24 hours. now that actually you'd have sunshine, you'd have sunlight and the difference would be super pacs effectively would go away. people would give to campaigns and hillary could communicate her message from her supporters and we could all talk about if someone gives a gazillion dollars to a candidate, we could talk about, okay, are they on the take. but i believe in more speech and more sunlight is the best thing for democracy. >> you went after chuck hagel when he went up for the nomination on the issue of disclosure.

you said you want to know where his money came from. in the book here, another reason to read the book, you said it was a mistake to say he may have gotten the money from north korea. he did fight the communist in vietnam and had two purple hearts and you're saying he took money from the communists, which was a pretty strong charge and you said it was a mistake. >> well, i do talk about a number of things. i did say that i thought it was a mistake to mention north korea. >> of course. you apologized to him for that? have you ever said chuck, i'm sorry for calling you on the take with the communists? >> i didn't. one of the things i walk through in the book. >> i've got it underlined. and there are liable laws. you can't just say did you take the money from the communists. you can't do that. >> john adams famously said facts are stubborn things. what this book does is describe the facts. i didn't know haggel. >> let's look at what you said at his confirmation hearing when he's up for secretary of defense. >> i will point out that right now this committee knows absolutely nothing about the

personal compensation chuck hagel received in 2008, in 2009 or 2010. it is at a mineral vanity to know if that $200,000 that he deposited in his bank account came directly from saudi arabia, came directly from north korea. >> from north korea. here's what you wrote in your book. in hindsight i made a mistake when i uttered the words north korea. there was no credible reason anyone would believe hagel received funds from north korea. >> but there was credible reason to believe that he may have received funds from a foreign government. the reason is that i along with 25 other senators sent him a letter asking him to disclose his income. i'll point out that's the same question that was asked of hillary clinton and she willingly gave over seven years. it's the same question harry reid asked henry kissinger. >> but they didn't accuse someone of taking money from a communist government. >> but the difference -- >> that's different. >> chris, what you never mentioned on your tv shows when you were blasting me for that. >> yeah. >> is that hagel responded in writing there were seven checks that he received.

six of them he said i can represent they didn't come from a foreign government. the seventh, for $200,000, he said i cannot tell you -- >> that's in the book too. >> if they came from a foreign government. >> look, we agree. you shouldn't have said north korea, let's move on. do you agree? >> it was a tactical mistake because it enabled democrats to change the subject. look, i still think it's ridiculous that senators and the media did not care that a nominee for secretary of defense said in writing he may have received money from a foreign government and nobody cared to at least ask. did you in fact -- >> but your reputation preceded you there because everyone knows you're a very zealous anti-communist, which is good. when you mentioned north korea, people said it sounds like he's on the take from the communists. don't you agree? >> what i said in full is i said, listen, in writing he has raised the inference that he may have received money from a foreign country. i said there are contexts in which no one would care. if he received money from canada for a lumber dispute, no one would care.

and then i said on the other hand if he received money from some other countries, and i mentioned saudi arabia. >> okay. >> and foolishly, the reason i mentioned north korea, it was news then. that was a mistake because it let democrats change the subject and so i admit that was a mistake. >> anyway, let's talk about the election. 2000 election you had a bill role in the recount. it was the best thing i ever covered. you bring the supreme court in, which you were a lover of the supreme court then. you brought them in. they basically said the state lost its rights to recount because of equal protection. now, now on the issue of marriage equality, you say no equal protection, leave the states alone. so how do you be consistent there? are you consistent or inconsistent on equal protection? >> listen, i believe i'm very consistent. one of the things i describe in the book is how i've spent my entire adult life fighting to defend the constitution. it's been a passion -- >> and the court. and the supreme court. you've always been pro-supreme court. >> well -- >> until now.

>> i revere the court, as you know. i was a law clerk to chief justice rehnquist. >> as you would say it's in the book. this is the book, "a time for truth." now you're for retention elections. you've had to raise a ton of money to run for president. you'll be in the debates. should judges have to raise $37 billion to run for election? how can you put judges out there and make them politicians? >> i am reluctant to call for retention elections but i have done it because i believe that a majority of the justices are not honoring their judicial oaths. >> is that the solution, elections? >> look, if unelected judges are going to seize every major policy issue of this country. you know, there was a time -- >> they seized the presidency in 2000 and you did not complain. the supreme court said no to the state of florida. you can't recount even though it's a close election. you are not allowed to recount. we're giving this to our guy, 5-4 republican vote in the supreme court. if there was ever a case of partisanship or ideology getting

out of hand it was 2000 and you loved it. you loved it. you were cheering you said in the book. >> those are great talking points. >> but they're true. >> how many times did they count the ballots in florida? >> four. >> how many times did bush win? >> four times. they wanted to try it one more time. >> the democrats' strategy was we're going to keep counting and counting and counting and counting and eventually maybe enough people will cheat and somehow our guy will win. >> how do you know they're going to cheat? >> after four times -- >> okay. i just think it's a case of states' rights which you usually champion and equal protection, republicans champion equal protection and they have lost interest in it now. >> i describe how the first time the supreme court unanimously vacated what the florida supreme court did when it came down, you know what the florida supreme court did? it told the u.s. supreme court go jump in a lake. didn't even cite its opinion. >> they wanted to continue with the recount under the decision of the legislature. >> it was partisan defiance of the court, and frankly what the florida supreme court did in the

bush versus gore recount is the same thing the supreme court did with obamacare. >> you have a very good-looking family here, by the way. the back of the book is better than the front. >> you're very kind and i've said many times thank god my girls look like their mother. >> please come back, we'll continue with this. the book is called "a time for truth." thank you, senator ted cruz of texas, who's going to be in the debates. coming up, reaction from what we just heard from ted cruz and the incredible interview with nbc's katy tur and donald trump. trump is looking to connect with tens of millions of americans who don't trust politicians. so far i think it's working. plus donald trump said it's on its way to becoming greece. greece on steroids he said. cnbc's jim cramer tells us why trump, thank god, isn't right yet and could bernie sanders go rogue and run for president as an independent third party? finally, let me finish with the performance we saw from the ring master of the right. donald trump. this is "hardball," the place for politics.

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welcome back to "hardball." for reaction to my interview with senator cruise as well as a brand new interview with donald trump, i'm joined by michael steele, former governor of vermont, howard dean and howard fineman, they're all msnbc political analysts and i'm glad to have you. howard, what did you make of that interview with cruz? >> there must be something here in the studio because ted cruz seemed more like a supreme court clerk than donald trump. >> is that good? >> yes. i think in a way donald trump is so technicolor over the top that the ted cruz who we're used to seeing on the floor of the

senate, antagonistic to all institutions came off as a guy with an interesting personal family story who has some explaining to do about things like the hagel takedown on north korea. >> he retook it. >> he disagreed and took his medicine on that and he was ready to engage in a big conversation about the supreme court. that's the ted cruz who's intellectually impressive, i think, and a better guy with donald trump in the race. >> the other guy in the race tapping into the anger on the right is donald trump. in an interview today with nbc's katy tur, trump continued to hammer away at mexico. he accused the government of dumping people here they don't want in their country into our country. let's watch. >> don't try and convince me that there's no crime, that it's wonderful. the people that are being forced in, and these aren't just mexican people, the people that are being forced -- mexico doesn't want people. they're forcing them into our country, and we're taking them and we're putting them in our jails and our hospitals and we're paying them money through different sources. it's a disgrace.

don't tell me about safety. are you trying to justify safety on the border? i don't think so. >> governor, he was derogatory towards this interview. he had that sneer on his face like you're stupid. he was like using her as a tackling dummy for what he didn't like. >> this is a train wreck and donald trump is the engineer. putting the thing up to 150 miles an hour around an 80-mile-an-hour track. as long as he's in the race, nobody else will get a word in edgewise. how can you not cover a guy like this. >> i know. >> but the bad thing is, this is the image of the republican party. it may be totally unfair. >> i think every republican should know there's an angry part of the republican party that knows nobody is taking seriously the flow of illegal immigrants. they don't like the fact that they're totally unregulated. >> this guy is completely unreasonable and over the edge. he's going to drown out the legitimate debate on the republican side. >> he may push the argument to its extreme logical point or

some would say illogical point, but it forces everyone else to have the normal conversation. so you now have to come to the table with some credible analysis or plan or some conversation. >> but the problem is everybody willig nor the so-called normal conversation. nobody will pay any attention to it. >> i don't know that that's going to be the effect. i think donald trump like bad money driving up good, donald trump can lower the level of the conversation. ted cruz, who is as i say almost studious in his discussion with you might decide, you know, i've got -- >> he was asked why he wasn't on the campaign trail like the other candidates. let's watch. >> i watched them up there walking the streets and it didn't mean anything. i was actually getting more news coverage than anybody else by far because i'm the one that brought up the whole situation of the whole mess with immigration and what the mexican government is doing to us. >> trump singled out jeb bush, the front runner, saying he would be a very poor president and he said this to say about hillary clinton.

>> hillary clinton was the worst secretary of state in the history of the united states. hillary was the worst, in the history of the united states there's never been a secretary of state so bad as hillary. the world blew up around us. we lost everything, including all relationships. there wasn't one good thing that came out of that administration or her being secretary of state. >> not second worst, not third worst, the worst. i mean what kind of -- is this comic book talk or what? >> well, that's new york real estate salesmanship translated to television, translated to the campaign. >> michael. >> no, i agree with howard on that. look, he's pushing the point. but this is the key thing, chris, you said it earlier today. he is playing to an audience that's actually listening to what he's having to say. >> and don't trust the other guys. >> we don't trust the other guys. >> thank you. up next, jim cramer is coming here with his reaction to some of donald trump's claims that america is, quote, the next greece.

but is actually greece on steroids he claims. cramer will make you feel better. this is "hardball," the place for politics.

our country is in trouble. we owe $18 trillion going up to $21 trillion very soon. once we hit $24 trillion, we're greece. we are greece on steroids. >> welcome back to "hardball." donald trump said today america is going the way of greece. joining me is jim cramer. jim, is that true? >> no, not at all. greece is a bankrupt country. it needs not just financial help but humanitarian help. our country is the strongest country in the world right now and probably the fastest grower, so, no, i can't equate the two at all. >> what he's trying to do, and i understand the math, he's saying that basically our debt now is higher than our gdp. that our economy is able to produce in goods and services. we owe more than that each year. the greeks went up to 175% of

what they produce in goods and services. at what point is the tilt button going on the pin ball machine? what does it stop being too much debt, can you tell ahead of time? >> medicare, social security, those are very big issues. those are entitlements. leave it up to you whether the people in washington will ever be tough enough to be able to cut those back. it's a 2035, 2040 issue absolutely. it's very hard to imagine right now. but trump will be right during that period. but right now, no, we're very, very strong and our debt is strong. everybody in the world wants to invest in our bonds because we're the only safe haven. >> what i can't understand is the chinese have always gotten fat and rich. i've been over there and everything looks like -- the cranes are up and zooming and now we find out their stock market is plummeting. why? why aren't they rich like they seem to be? >> i think the chinese are paper tiger. i think we're too worried about them militarily. i think we're too worried about them and their growth. i think their growth is slowing. they are still growing. i think they are the country

that really has $300 trillion in debt that is ridiculously overlevered, but we treat them as if they are ready to take us over at any minute. i think if we had a president that would stand up to them either party, and i'm not endorsing donald trump, believe me, but i do think that the idea of going to china and saying stop polluting, stop wrecking our air and stop dumping stuff is not an absurd position at all. i think it's truthful. >> do you think the point he made about the japanese and the car manufacturing was smart too today where he said basically they make all the cars, they're making them in mexico and everywhere and we're buying them and we're the chumps. is that right? >> because they don't buy our stuff, yes. look, we do all these trade deals. we've never had a trade surplus in any of the deals that we've done, chris. i know that donald is given to hyperbole. by the way, you can pollute all you want in mexico. and the companies building, the

japanese and the germans that are on the planes in the central part of the country and they take a big train ride up from union pacific and they are in your showroom and much cheaper than we can make. >> okay, you're the greatest. i feel better. so i shouldn't worry about china, i shouldn't worry about -- how about greece, should i worry about that? >> worry that chancellor merkel wants to be -- >> what does that mean in america in today's english? >> it means she wants reparations. she wants a pound of flesh. enough already. >> oh, god. you're with krugman it sounds like. >> yes. >> "mad money" airs weekdays at 6:00 eastern on cnbc. thank you, jim cramer. up next, in what may be the year of the nonpolitician, what are the odds that donald trump and bernie sanders runs a third party campaign for president next year. that's next on the roundtable. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics.

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welcome back to "hardball." there's something strange happening in american politics as my colleague andrea mitchell put it earlier today, it is the year of the nonpolitician. a self-proclaimed socialist and big-city billionaire have jumped to the number two spots in each party's primary race.

bernie sanders, the independent socialist, and donald trump are leading movements that are disgusted with the political class. if jeb bush and hillary clinton are the nominees, what happens to these movements. in an interview today, trump said that he had many people ask him about running as an independent third party candidate. as the "washington examiner's" byron reports he left the door cracked at the end when i asked if he would rule out a third party run. quote, it's something i'm not thinking about right now, trump said. the roundtable tonight, april ryan, david cornish, an msnbc political analyst, and kristen soltis anderson, the author of "the selfie vote." all this money into this race between now and next spring, he comes in second and third, will he go third party? because he's basically running against the republican party as much as within it. >> he certainly is not being welcomed within the republican party, at least not the republican establishment at the

moment. the statements that he's made are so outlandish that a lot of republicans want to move as far away from him as possible. this is not the first time donald trump has toyed with the idea of running as a third-party candidate as president of the united states. >> isn't he already seemingly run -- >> he's kinds of his own guy. this weird combination of pat buchanan populism but reality tv flash and glamour, to the extent you can use that term with him. i think donald trump was in this to gain attention and notoriety. >> a combination of flash and tv apprentice and pappy canon's pitchforks. >> don't forget the fence. a very, very, very big fence. >> let me say this. i think donald trump, if he becomes a third party, the symbol for the third party will be a dollar sign. money, money, money, money will be his song. >> what do you mean? are you knocking him? >> yeah.

>> tell me why you're knocking him. make it clear. >> let me say this. the republican party has tried to embrace -- they realize the failures of their past. they're trying to embrace everyone, understanding that they have been viewed for the last four presidential campaigns as the white male or -- yeah, two or three really presidential campaigns, the white male group so now what you have is donald trump who's running against what they are trying to do. they are trying to embrace me and other people in black media. reince priebus told me we are more unified than divided and donald trump being who he is is not going up under this umbrella. if donald trump runs against what the republican party is trying to do, he will be a third-party candidate. >> you've got to look at this from the bottom up. the issue is not what reince priebus says to you or chris matthews -- >> he doesn't talk to me. >> we've got to get him to do that. >> no. >> it's what's happening with the republican voter. the tea party base of the party is angry.

they want to be vented at and with. the republican establishment may want donald trump to go away but a strong part of the base wants him to go on. if the establishment tries to push him to the side, that's when he'll go rogue. if he's not given a fair shake and they try to keep him out of the debates and say you're not good enough, the people with their pitchforks -- >> he is in the debate. he's in the debate. he makes that 10% cutoff. >> but how does it show up that they jam him out of the party? how would they do that physically so he could say i tried, they won't let me play ball in their sand box, i'm getting out of here. >> they're already doing official things, trying to set up agreements with him, treating him like any other candidate because i think they know you need to distance yourself from what he's saying but you can't pretend like -- if you want to run for president as a republican and you cross all of the ts, dot all your is -- >> you're saying they're stuck with him.

>> bernie sander is also going up to hillary clinton as being part of the political establishment. let's watch the senator. >> hillary clinton has been part of the political establishment for many, many years. when the top one-tenth of 1% owns almost as much wealth as the bottom 90%, maybe it's time for real political shakeup and go beyond establishment politics. >> today in an interview with nbc's katy tur, donald trump bashed hillary, he bashed jeb and he said our country is going to hell. >> i'm concerned about the country. our country is going to hell. they tell the truth. i say what's happening. jeb bush will never take us to the promised land. he doesn't have it. hillary will never take us to the promised land. hillary will be a disaster as a president. if we keep going the way it's going, america is going to be permanently scarred. >> you know what, my friend, david, the thing about him is he doesn't speak in half measures. >> no.

>> this is huge. hillary is an idiot and these guys of crumbs. there's nobody that's not a bad guy or he's trying, it's all of this outrageous and bar room talk basically. >> it's all at 11 as they say at the final tap. this is the problem the republicans will have when he's on the debate stage and someone asks the question, jeb bush, what will you do about china. i believe in proactive engagements. he'll go what are you talking about? i will use our military to get our jobs back. i will use our treasury to blackmail -- >> i'll get mexico to build a wall. >> i'll start a war with mexico. you're just talking like a wuss. >> who's closer to the american sensibility right now, him or >> he's closer to the tea party base sensibility. >> how much of the republican party is that? 30%? >> yeah, at least. >> it's a small percentage. >> small? >> it's a smaller portion than the majority. >> you've got 16 guys running, that's a lot. >> let me say this, donald trump throws a lot of these bombs out here to get you to listen.

i don't even believe donald trump believes half of what he says. he's doing the same thing that dr. ben carson did. he said a lot of shocking things. dr. carson said a lot of shocking things and he wound up getting people's attention. that's exactly what donald trump is doing. i'm going to say this too. he's talking about hillary clinton. i have been at fund-raisers in his own building where he attended a fund-raiser with hillary and bill clinton. >> i was there. >> now all of a sudden he doesn't like them. >> april is saying that politicians normally say what they believe. >> sometimes. >> this guy doesn't. >> he is not a politician. he is a businessman who works on his plan. he's not a politician. >> who's going to come out of the big debate next month on fox the winner. >> donald trump. >> i say donald trump. >> for antics. >> not antics. who will be leading in the polls afterwards. who's leading in the polls afterwards? that's how you know who won. >> well, he goes up. >> i'm going to say jeb bush which is the unorthodox answer

for this panel because i think there are still a lot of folks who hear the name bush. >> are you for bush? >> i like him, i'm a florida girl. i think he's going to prove to a lot of people that he's not like his brother, that he has a very different temperament, different ideas. i think that will wind up being good for him. >> someone close to trump has told me that he's not good at remembering things so we'll see how the debate prep goes. >> he's not going to prep for the debate. are you kidding me? come on! he doesn't need to prep. >> i'm sorry, you're great. by the way, when you go after guys for being too bombastic, i'm looking at you. i'm sorry. anyway, bernie sanders is out there fully embracing the socialist nation. he told them that if the american people understood the significant accomplishments that have gone on under democratic socialist governments -- he says it means something to me. >> unlike a lot of other candidates, if you ask them are

you for medicare or against medicare, a lot of republicans, they will hem and ha because medicare is socialism. medicaid is socialism. >> until you're 62 or 65. >> flood insurance for north carolina is socialism. and so they won't accept that. but he gets up there and he says what he believes and that's why he's doing well. it's not because of charisma or anything else, he's appealing to a wing of the democratic party. >> i think the government should stay out of medicare. have you ever heard that argument? i love it. and we'll be back with more of you. anyway, you were great. i just think a guy saying anything anybody is listening to. >> it's divisive. >> that's an argument. >> it's true. >> but they're listening to him. the roundtable is staying. and you're right. up next, i feel like i'm talking at home here. you're right. up next, we got a strong sense from hillary clinton about where she thinks the presidential election will be won or lost. she's taking an early shot at jeb bush on immigration, so she's going to go for liberals and the hispanic vote. this is "hardball," the place

for politics.

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the team says it will appeal today's ruling. we'll be back after this.

i am happy to have a chance to run my campaign the way i see fit. one of the thing that i learned last time, it is organize, organize, organize. >> that was hillary clinton. of course, responding to a question about the excitement surrounding her rival bernie sanders but she is looking past sanders and turning up the heat against her rival, jeb bush and the entire republican party over the issue, this is a big one, immigration. >> he doesn't believe in a path to citizenship.

if he did at one time, he no longer does. pretty much, they're on a spectrum of hostility which i think is really regrettable in a nation of immigrants like ours. all the way to kind of grudging acceptance but refusal to go with a pathway to citizenship. i think that's a mistake. >> that was a good capitalization of the two parties. saying hillary clinton will say anything to get elected. david, it seems to me that she just capsulized it pretty well. the democrats will go for the big coalition including his spannic voters. we're on your side. the other party will have people on the hard right like the most egregious would be the hell with those people who have been here illegally. even if he's working for me and working hard i'm getting him out of here. it seem she's nailed it. it will be are you for it or against it? tough on illegal immigration at all, or very tough?

>> this was a big issue in 2012. remember, mitt romney talking about self-deportation. it was a big issue in the primary when you had rick perry and mitt romney and others debating amongst themselves, how far to go. and running away from the pathway to citizenship. scott walker used to support the pathway to citizenship. and now he's turned against to it win the nominee. first you have that fight there with no one actually supporting what is a majority, and then in the general, you can have this very black and white distinction. >> jeb bush. she goes after this guy who has a mexican wife and she's the he's not good enough on immigration. that's really wrong footing him. oh, i have to go tell my wife. it is dill for poor jeb to explain in a republican party how does he do it? >> he has taken a position. >> what is it? >> his position is that we need to do something about the folks are here that doesn't involve deporting them.

i think it allows people to stay here in their communities. >> to become americans. >> i don't think he has supported a pathway to full citizenship. >> that's not very helpful to people who have been here 20 years. >> it is not sending them back home. >> it is keeping them that limbo. >> who said i was a liberal in. >> i think jeb bush is true to himself and his household. and i think that being married to a mexican woman, mexican native and having mixed race children, he stepped out there. when he made announcement, he let the republican party know who he was. for hillary clinton to say that he's flip flopped. >> wait a minute, wait a minute. >> i know he has. for her to go after him like that and understanding where he stands now. it is kind of wrong in my opinion, because they are both, she is going after the man that is primarily focused in on a subject that she is trying to really get hispanics on.

>> i don't agree with you. >> i'm in agreement. >> could it that be she's not afraid of jeb bush this week. she's afraid of bernie sanders this week so she picks a fight with jeb bush. she doesn't want to fight with bernie openly. >> every front runner doesn't want to have a fight with the people behind them. jeb bush isn't picking a fight with scott walker or marco rubio. he keeps talking about hillary clinton as well. >> you're saying she's deflecting from her own party. >> you want to fight with the other side to make your side stronger. thank you. i'm occasionally brilliant. great to have you on. please come back. when we return, let me win the the performance we saw today from donald trump. you're watching "hardball."

let me finish with a bit of pure american politics. like it or not know by donald trump or not, the performance he put on today was political gold. trump did what other politicians are not doing. connecting to millions of american people, to tens of millions. he is doing it by blasting the professional politicians for not doing what they should be doing. for not creating a workable, honest immigration system. for not honoring a workable way to protect their tax money. people want to know the people at the top are looking out for them. protecting the country from illegal immigration.

protecting the tax dollars and right now they don't think the big shots in either party are doing either. trump is on to something. he is saying terrible things about people coming across the border from mexico. they're coming here to work, work hard. he is suggesting most of them are criminals. what he is right about is that the politicians are doing nothing to stop the flow of people coming here illegally. because they're failing, he is succeeding. i have a lesson for republicans. they are the people who will pay the immediate and perhaps long term price trump is saying. if they don't get serious about passing the senate immigration bill, trump will be the only game in tounl for those angry about illegal immigration. if they don't pass this measure which includes tough new rules about hiring that ensures american employers are not hiring illegally, he will not only create a circus, he will be the ring master. that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "all in" starts right now. >> tonight -- >> i have great relationship with the mexican people. they love me.

i love them. >> donald trump lets loose in a wide ranging interview. >> none of your business. >> and once again, accuse mexico of deliberately sending criminals across the border. their the mexican government forces many bad people into our country. because they're smart. they're smarter than our leaders. >> the former president of mexico will join me to respond. then breaking news as the police chief of baltimore loses his job. plus, bill cosby's supporters seek justice. >> i can explain!