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correct the mistakes of the past? fresh off the anniversary of the iconic fill being i found myself wondering about those presis questions as i thought about correcting the mistakes of presidents who came before him. castro announced that the federal government would finally be fulfilling a past commitment and to enforce the dismantling of segregation in the creation of racially integrated communities as required by the fair housing act. the act was passed and signed by president lyndon johnson after the assassination of martin luther king jr. sparked riots in 125 cities. and when he charged with investigating the underlying causes the truth about residential segregation in america.

what white americans have never fully understand but what the negro can never forget is that what so siciety is deeply integrated in the ghetto. white institutions created it maintain it, and white soeoociety condones it. reassembling with integrated mixed income communities the law banned racial discrimination and housing but it also required the government to play a proactive role in transforming america's segregated communities and affirmatively furthering fair housing. if they wanted housing dollars, the fair housing act said they had to show they deserved those numbers. however, as nicole jones reported in her 2012 deep dive decade after decade the federal government failed to enforce the law.

president richard nixon set the precedent when he shut down the efforts to give the law some teeth and, according to jones, over the next four decades a succession of presidents democrat and republican alike, followed nixon's lead declining to use leverage of hud's billions to fight segregation. those billions hud didn't get much for its money because it doled out all those dollars this exchange for communities still as segregated today as 50 years ago. the new rules announced by the obama administration are designed to ensure the federal government gets what it pays for. local governments will now have to explain in detail how the federal housing money they receive will be used to reduce segregation and will get help from washington with finding previously hidden barriers in their communities and figuring out how best to move those barriers out of the way. housing advocates and civil rights groups welcome the new rules as a long overdue step to achieving the goals set by the

fair housing act so many years ago but the promise of what that future could be leaves me wondering about what the present might have been. as "the new york times" wrote in a may editorial a growing body of evidence suggests that america would be a different country today had the government taken its responsibilities serious which brings me back to the question what if? how difficult if the government took its responsibilities seriously all those years ago? if hurricane katrina struck an area where people were in an area low to flooding. if it was an economically diverse cross section of the city. how might asthma rates be different for black children if they weren't so much more likely to live in communities where they are exposed to toxic chemicals and where they breathe polluted air. what if baltimore was a city where government actively worked to expand opportunity instead of as researcher richard rothstein

said created policies that quarantine the black population in isolated slums. if chicago's gangs had not been dispersed by the breakup of housing projects meant to confine african americans to a segregated corridor of the city, what else might we be counting other than the tally of those killed? if people of color were not concentrated in communities where they are easy targets for predatory lenders peddling subprime mortgages, what if the social economic and health disadvantages compounded by living in the wrong zip code were diminished by a government deeply eliminated 50 years ago? what would our country look like now if we made those choices then? joining me now is lisa rice executive vice president of the national fair housing alliance the executive director of the new york state democratic party, james perry, community activist and advocate as the executive director of the fair housing center and is my husband, and professor of social and cultural

analysis and history at new york university. so lisa, i want to start with you. can you answer that question? how would the world look different right now if this rule had been actively enforced at the beginning of this law? >> i can't answer that question. the world would look very differently. the united states would be a much more integrated society. if you remember if you look at the census historically america has always been integrated. it wasn't until governments and municipalities started implementing policies and rules and ordinances to drive segregation, to drive residential segregation that america became a segregated society. >> so we tend to think of it as segregation as the kind of natural state of being and somehow the notion of social engineering to create this new america but, james, let me ask you this. i have watched you over the years doing this work and i wonder is this enough especially

given that there are now 50 more years of this inequality and sort of deepening of segregation? >> it's progress but is it enough? of course not. the issue is the rule as good as it is doesn't have enough teeth. when it comes to the money that we're talking about, some of the most flexible money you can get in the city. if you are married and have this money, you want to use it in a way that supports all of your political goals and it becomes difficult for the federal government to make them spend it in a way that desegregates a community. >> help me understand that more when you talk about the political goals. i want to come to you on this because here we have a late administration, we have a president within his last year of his second term making an announcement like this and maybe a policy with some teeth or not enough team. man, does this end up being a tool for, for example others to push back against it?

>> they're certainly going to do that. we've seen with obama care the republicans talk about states' rights. a lot of republicans say we don't want the federal government telling us what to do, how to construct and plan our cities. going back to an earlier comment, this is an empowering thing. when you think about wealth in communities particularly among african-american households, there's a pugh research that says the average assets for the median white household is $142,000. i think it's an appropriate time for -- >> if we break that down for unmarried african-american women, we're down in the handful of dollars. single digits. >> and i think for the president, for this administration, if you want to tackle -- one of the things you want to tackle is trying to solve the wealth gap that i think the minimum wage laws can do but not do enough of. >> tom, walk with us more on that then this idea of wealth. i do think it can get a bit

confused in our public conversations where we talk about jobs and economic development which matter greatly putting people back to work in the unemployment rate is our one measure, but this notion of housing is tied in so many other ways to economic well-being in a longer sense. >> absolutely. we hold most of our assets in the form of real estate in the united states. the house is the way that we accumulate wealth and pass it down from generation to generation. it's a way we help subsidize kids going to college. in form of inheritance. across metropolitan areas means wealth gaps we've seen gain progress over the last 50 years since the fair housing legislation of the 1960s but not in household wealth. there we've seen stagnation and decline. >> lisa it's been 50 years almost since the passage and i

report over and over again on this show our communities are nearly as segregated today as 50 years ago and in some parts of the country more segregated than they were except for some small portion of african-americans, latinos who generated some portion of it. oprah can live wherever she wants but everybody else is in the other circumstances. >> and chris rock had to live next door. >> right, exactly. not that there's anything wrong with dentists. thank god. thank god for dentists. i wonder about that. is this whole notion how we're going about generating integrated communities, this just isn't the way to do it. >> i want to go back to a point james raised earlier and that is that the way that municipalities use their funds, in particular in this instance their federal

funds, can help drive these issues you're talking about so, yes, we have made progress but we would have made much more progress had everybody been on the same page and had this particular provision which does not have a private right of action been effectively enforced. there are many examples of that. >> they were not allowed and you said -- i mean my whole brain went, what? who? >> you can sue someone. >> oh, right. okay. all right. we're talking about the capacity to use the law to sue somebody. >> exactly. >> and i'll give you a perfect example. the city of zanesville for over 50 years refused to give water to african-american residents. it's segregated like every other city in the country. there's a section african-americans had about pushed. the city of zanesville used in part federal funds to run water lines up to cold run, around cold run, and then back out

refusing to give those residents water. so think of what that did to the property value of those african-american residents. it helped to keep those property values depressed. >> they had to use well water. >> oh, no dear they were catching water in huge cisterns catching rainwater in huge cisterns. yes. >> welcome back to the 18th century. >> we're going to pause on that because, wow. and then when we come back we're going to talk more about housing and who isn't being held accountable if these moments. and move, groove, wiggle giggle, swerve, curve. lift, shift, ride, glide hit your stride. only always discreet underwear has soft dual leak guard barriers to help stop leaks where they happen most and a discreet fit that hugs your curves you barely feel it. always discreet underwear so bladder leaks can feel like no big deal. because hey, pee happens. get your free pair and valuable coupons at always discreet.com

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on wednesday when hud secretary castro announced the new rule used to enforce the fair housing act, that it could literally save lives.

>> st. louis can expect to live 18 fewer years than a child ten miles away in the clayton area. in baltimore a child born in the seton hill community has a life expectancy that's 19 years less than one from the upscale neighborhood of roland park. a zip code should never prevent any person from reaching their aspirations. >> i want to circle back on we have him saying a zip code shouldn't prevent a person from reaching their aspirations. >> i want to make clear this is a big deal. this is so brave of the obama administration to put forth this rule and brave not just because of how it challenges republicans but black democrats in particular. this idea you might be elected in a black district you're an african-american candidate. you have no incentives to want

to integrate that community because those black people elected you. >> oh, right. or to integrate it beyond a certain level because you have your base. >> you have a vested interest if you want to keep your job, you want to keep the district the way it is. you may want to keep it as an african-american district. this is a very brave step for the obama administration. >> it's a point and question i was in a conversation yesterday about this idea of integration and i heard that response which actually attempts to desegregate is bad for the black community because they undermine the existing constitutions whether they were schools or hospitals. it's a golden age of segregation narrative, right? and i guess part of what i want to do is undermine that by saying, no it generates

vulabilities. >> i think the most important way to think about it is the allocation of resources across space. segregated communities concentrate poverty, concentrate poor or underfunded education. mediocre housing. they concentrate assess gaps between blacks and whites. these are devastating for health outcome, jobs and economic opportunity. it's not about somehow the magic of whites rubbing off. >> magical integration. >> it's really about how we distribute resources and power. >> and the distribution of resources, i can't help but think about banks. as we're holding local

communities, state governments accountable, the other thing is lenders. we think about wells fargo and the big settlement but, you know the democrats have been a little bit cozy with the banks. they've been rubbing shoulders a fair bit. >> governor cuomo when he was hud second talked about public housing. in our recent session with respect to rent regulations this issue came up in a way because there was an issue of poor doors which is incredible right? you had segregated housing within complexes and so the point being that i think democrats now led by a few are

starting to push back quite a bit. there is a groundswell of support. >> it's also true that as much as banks can be the bad guys they pump money into your community. you have to partner with them. they have assets. >> and sometimes they invest bad capital. >> that's true. one of the things they camouflaged the fact we have always had mainstream lending redlining in america. had it never gone away. subprime lenders with but, unsustainable credit came into communities of color and they were able to do that because those communities were hyper segregated, came in with bad capital, gave people mort gamgsgages they could never sustain, were designed to refinance, not

designed for the long term. when the economy went down people could not get refinancing and lost their houses wholesale. now communities of color are foreclosed on 50% foreclosure rates. >> i feel like i have seen and heard those subprime commercials are re-emerging. stay with us everybody. up next a supreme court decision that is part of all of this because it was part of determining and protecting a key tool in the fight against housing discrimination.

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discrimination on the basis of race and at issue the question whether the law prohibits only intentional discrimination or what seemed race neutral. the court settled the question policies that cause disparate impact are in violation. joining me from dallas texas, the vice president and deputy director. so nice to have you this morning. >> hello, how are you? >> good to see you. help us to understand how the security decision is part of -- and the decision to uphold is related to the effort to affirmatively further fair housing. >> the decision and the rule coming out ran on two separate tracks but at the end of the day both deal with fairness and

breaking up segregation, right? and so with the disparate impact tool you're able to use some of the data and some of the information that you have to show the patterns that have existed way back to let's say 1937 overlaying that with maps of what's going on today. these municipalities taking hud rundz to take data maps and those kinds of things to see what's going on. as they make their planning their decisions on how to use that money. so in both instances it's critical to see what's going on historically, today, and on the ground. the real exciting piece about this new rule is that they'll be able to better use with ease the hud data online and be able to

tell folks, hey, this is what's going on. you need to connected what's going on with how you're going to use it. >> stick with us. i want to ask you on this in part because my understanding is it was a fairly big risk to bring the case and some if the housing community were nervous about this supreme court ever weighing in on disparate impact and it's been a pretty good year. >> it is a very good year. the reason people were nervous is because there had been no split at the appellate level whether or not you could use this doctrine. all appellate courts agree, yes, the technical term so people surprised why would the supreme court take it up? it's clear from the congressional level that congress intended for it to be covered.

pem thought they want to undo disparate impact. it only takes four justices to agree to take up a particular question. >> it may have been those four on the wrong side of it. how important is that role of litigation? we've seen a supreme court decision and a new administrative rule. what other pieces are necessary? >> it comes together to change communities. the thing lisa didn't get to someone we know lit gitigate litigated that case. they'll have water from the city and not a cistern. you have political entertist. you have lawyers litigating and you have the supreme court. by the time it's done hopefully we won't be debating the issue. >> we have resources to do

effective enforcement. the fair housing advocates group in akron, ohio, went down and investigated. >> so let me come to you on this. now the case your organization will be brought out of texas upholds and sustains disparate impact. what were the kind of strategic decisions and what might others learn from that? >> i think the main thing we learned from that is what we hinted at earlier. local folks on the ground have got to dig in and get the data. whatever level it is if you have seen the data of what's

going on that will help hold them accountable. putting it in the context of here is the data and here is the decision you made. and there's a mismatch. >> one quick political question for you. big, splashy headlines on this. coming out of activism but ending up in a big administrative people. is the secretary of hud hillary clinton's choice for the vp? >> wow. i do not know but he is a very attractive lead erer. he's very popular in san antonio. a lot of folks have talked about him. >> east texas. latinos just got a big win. >> i think he should be on the list but who knows what ultimately happens. >> i was just hoping for a yes or a no. okay. thank you. also here in new york thank you to lisa rice and thank you to

james perry. tom and basil will return later in the program. but up next the bold reform that could keep thousands of low-level offenders out of jail and, still to come the judge who gives defendants homework assignments. what we can learn from her courtroom. ♪ to steady betty. to steady betty. fire it up! ♪ am i the only one with a meeting? i've got two. yeah we've gotta go. i gotta say it man this is a nice set-up. too soon. just kidding. nissan sentra. j.d. power's "highest ranked compact car in initial quality." now get 0% financing or a great lease on the nissan sentra. ♪ happy anniversary dinner, darlin' can this much love be cleaned by a little bit of dawn ultra? oh yeah.

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super poligrip. ♪ [music] ♪ defiance is in our bones. new citracal pearls. delicious berries and cream. soft, chewable, calcium plus vitamin d. only from citracal. ka leaf spent three years in jail on rikers island with many of those months spent in solitary confinement without a trial. he'd been accused of stealing a backpack but maintained his innocence. once his case was dismissed and he finally got out he struggled still with flashbacks paranoia and depression. last month he committed suicide. according to the new yorker he was held in rikers because his family could not pay the $3,000

bail. jerome died in his cell in rikers at the age of 56. officials said his cell overheated to more than 100 degrees and the mentally ill homeless man basically baked to death. he was awaiting trial after he was arrested for trespassing, for sleeping in the stairwell of a housing project rather than outside in the february cold. he was in the cell where he died because he couldn't afford his $2,500 bail. the new york city system of cash bail that keeps people there while they wait for their case to be resolved. bail is meant to ensure defendants show up in court and if they can pay, then they're released pending trial.

they will get the money back even if they're convicted. if a defendant can't make bail they're held in jail until they get a date in court which could be weeks or months or years. a defendant in new york city waits years for trial. now the city is trying to do better. officials announced that some defendants charged with misdemeanors will be able to go home while they wait trial without paying bail. city officials say it will reduce by up to 200 people a day and it could make a big difference in their lives. but still it's a drop in the bucket in a facility that has a daily population of about 10,000 people. the new rules could have saved the homeless man who died in his cell. they would not have saved kalief browder. he was accused of robbing a man of his backpack and roughing him up. he was charged with second-degree assault, a violent

felony and so he would not have been eligible for the new bail rules. relaxing bail for some defendants is a good step but new york city still has a lot of work to do to make its criminal justice system look anything like justice. so up next more on criminal justice reform with the judge who gives defendants homework. i heard you lost a close one today. look, jamie, maybe we weren't the lowest rate this time. but when you show people their progressive direct rate and our competitors' rates you can't win them all. the important part is, you helped them save. thanks, flo. okay, let's go get you an ice cream cone, champ. with sprinkles? sprinkles are for winners. i understand. thank you so much. did you say honey? hey, try some? you know i'm always looking for real honey for honey nut cheerios. well you've come to the right place. mind if i have another taste? not at all mmm part of a complete breakfast

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take advantage of our summer offers. the 2015 cadillac srx, a crossover with space safety, and style. lease this from around $339 per month. ♪ ♪ judge victoria pratt treats defendants quite differently than most do. she demand they write essays. she explains legal concepts in plain language. she and her entire court staff applaud when a defendant makes progress by for example completing their community service or going through detox. judge pratt is a pioneer of what's known as procedural justice and in a recent profile of her "the guardian" described the philosophy like this. people are far more likely to obey the law if the justice

system does not humiliation them but treats them fairly and with respect. the honorable victoria pratt, chief judge of the newark municipal court. why is treating people with respect a revolutionary idea in our court system? >> that's an interesting question to ask. i think under the concepts and tenets of pred ural justice, some of the things that come natural to other people in other professions sometimes get lost in court and also with becoming a judge. the idea you should treat the person with dignity and respect. it can be more than just good morning, sir, good morning, ma'am. it can be how you address someone when they come before you. the transgender female whose male name is on the file. what the judge decides to do when they're called up and how that changes the interaction. the person actually when they came up i said their male name

low so it would be picked up on the record but the female name so when we walked down she was addressed that way and she said judge, i've been watching you and you're not two-faced. look at that. she's judging me as much as i'm judging her. >> there are aspects of the american court system which if you've been in court for the smallest thing, a traffic ticket or anything that are set up to not lead us to this procedural justice. judges sit higher and talk down they talk to the attorneys and not to the defendants. is there something that we could institute beyond the individual revolutionary judge more broadly? >> i also practiced them in the context of the community court which is a community solution. the participant should be able to be heard. also the proceedings appear to

be neutral, so the judge isn't just joking around with the prosecutor or public defender, those kinds of things are really important to the pro session. when the court planners came in they immediately started to have these community engagement meetings, what they thought about the court, what they thought about crime and what they wanted. and telling the court this is what they wanted to see. they wanted people to receive assistance assistance. they didn't want the drug addict to get out two days later and just be a drug addict again. >> this is also an important way of shifting our discourse. you estimate 85% to 90% have substance abuse problems and that many have both.

how does thinking about people struggling with addiction and mental illness change how you respond to them? >> well-being it changes how everyone in the courtroom responsibilities to responds to the case before them. why did you commit this offense? we're looking at why is this person offending? the ultimate goal is to actually not have them on this conveyor belt of justice but to support their families and communities. when you have a prosecutor a public defender a police officer in the courtroom, those who have specialized training and they use their own life experience to begin to look at the condition of the person who presents in court it's a totally different experience. >> i know why i as a college professor assign essays why do you as a judge assign essays? >> the essays are about

answering the question and the answers are always inside. they are cathartic. they require people to think. some of of my young guys or women, no one has ever asked them what are you going to do in the next five years? they wake up -- when you wake up and you don't have a plan for yourself, you become a part of somebody else's plan or their foolishness and most it have is being a part of their foolishness. i want them thinking about what are they going to do in the next five years? how are they going to support themselves? how are they going to support their families? how are they going to make a contribution and to think bigger than the four corners of the block they live on really important they begin to have that. i also give out essays powerful essays, some of the older gentlemen who have lost their sons to the street to the violence, to the gun violence that we tend to see in our urban centers. letters to my sons. some of them have lost them. some of their sons are still alive. and those are so powerful

because the fathers are taking time to apologize to their families for what they haven't done because they've been dealing with their own addiction. and powerful when a father is addressing his son who is in prison. >> accountability. >> accountability. >> judge, i am a fan. really at the base level i am a fan of what you are doing in terms of procedural justice. a new report on the history of abuse for many girls in the juvenile system. we don't ask them either how they ended up there.

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in oregon 76% of the girls sexually abused before the age of 13. i want to make this clear, these are not the rates at which girls experience abuse while in the custody of the criminal justice system. sexual abuse is one of the predictors of girls' entry into the juvenile justice system. girls are often detained for exhibiting common reactions to trauma and abuse. drug and alcohol use, truancy, running away. in some cases, it is the abuse itself that lands the girls in court. in many states underaged girls who are forced into sex trafficking can be arrested on prostitution charges. joining me now malik, executive director of human rights project for girls, one of the organization's behind the report and the reverend executive director of college and community fellowship and co-founder of the education inside-out coalition. and back with us is also tom

from new york university. this report is both appalling and the least surprising thing that i have read all week. how are girls different for the reasons they end up in our system versus boys? >> so there's been such remarkable work on the school-to-prison pipeline, which is really the boys he' story. when we look at the girls' story it is the sexual abuse to prison pipeline and that's because what plays out is that girls who are sexually victimized who have trauma instead of seeing them as victims and survivors that they are, they are criminalized so this is the way that our girls are being criminalized not because they're more violent. not because they're the new gang members, but because their experiences are of being raped, of being abused are seen through the lens of criminalization.

and i think the point you make that is the most egregious is a girl who is being forced to be trafficked, who is being bought and sold for sex, is arrested for prostitution. and there's a racial dynamic. >> thank you. i just want to say there are some girls who we are able to see as victims and others who we have a much harder time seeing as victims and i'm just wondering what might be the difference between those girls. i wrote a note to myself hint had been hint, race. >> race is a huge issue. we see time and time again especially with girls who grow up in poor -- if communities of color, that the way they find acceptance and love is to get involved with gangs and other activities. in other communities that are better resourced they get therapy. they get all kinds of attention because they're seen as victims.

>> and i want to be clear. obviously the revictimization of young women and girls who experience sexual abuse is not racial in the sense that it exists everywhere for the particular criminalization of it does feel to me like it is this understanding of what we think black women'sies are. so despite the fact i'm turning away from the two women of color at the table but it is in part to ask you this question tom, because it seems to be part of the problem as if i'm 13 and i'm a prostitute that's nonsecular. you can't even consent to sex at 13. how could you possibly be engaged in criminal sexual activity? but our ability to see a young girl in that way does seem so deeply related to our racial expectations. >> absolutely. what we see is a recapitulation of old themes in america's racist history which is the demonization of african-american

girls and women as jezebels as responsible for their own deviant sexuality rather than looking at them as victims of oppression of the system, of relationships of abuse. >> let me ask what i think is a tough question. i think the detention centers, the criminal justice system they're a tough target but in certain ways for communities of color they are also an easy target to call the bad guys. if sexual assault is the gateway experience for so many girls and we know that sexual assault for all communities except for women is likely to happen within the community, what do we do about stopping the initial sexual assault that is occurring often right within our own families and communities? >> i think we do need to pay attention to that and i think it's not just within our own communities. we need to have that conversation throughout the country. we have a very hard time acknowledging in all communities

the pervasiveness of sexual violence against our girls. and i want to reiterate this is a conversation about children. we're not talking about women. this is about very young girls -- >> 10, 11, 12 13 14. >> and numbers like in oregon that girls who are reporting sexual violence when they come into the system report being sexually abused at least three times before the age of 12. this is about the pervasiveness of sexual violence in our communities. the question that has to be asked, why when it comes to poor girls who are black and brown girls to recriminalize that experience of violence. it does go to the issue of racial methodologies that oversexualize our girls of color that deny them the status of being a victim of survivor of violence.

>> judge pratt does this think of asking people about themselves. quote from a young girl who had been held in juvenile on prostitution and solicitation when she was 15 again at 16 and 17 saying no one assessed me or ever even asked me what got me there. judges not even asking how in the world did you end up here? >> and it's not just judges. young girls are abused within a safe space like their church and when young girls come forward they're not believed because the person who committed the act is too respectable. they're the pastor or the deacon and they couldn't possibly have done that you're making this

up. and girls need to be relieved. it doesn't even matter if we ask if we're not going to believe what they say. >> the girls who were truant were running away from abusive situations in the '70s and now here we are the same patterns. thank you to saar. yesterday the confederate flag came down. again, from south carolina. the activist who took it down the first time. also, you know so sorry about this, but donald trump has taken that border pollitics to a border state. i can't believe we have to talk more about this. it takes a lot of work... to run this business. i'm on the move all day long... and sometimes, i just don't eat the way i should. so i drink boost to get the nutrition that i'm missing. boost complete nutritional drink has 26 essential vitamins and minerals including calcium and vitamin d to support strong bones and 10 grams of protein to help maintain muscle. all with a great taste.

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that's huge for my bottom line. what's in your wallet? do you like the passaaadd? it's a good looking car. this is the model rear end event. the model year end sales event. it's year end! it's a rear end event. year end, rear end check it out. talk about turbocharging my engine. gorgeous. what kind of car do you like? new, or many miles on it? get a $1000 volkswagen reward card on select 2015 passat models or lease a 2015 passat limited edition for $209 a month after $1000 volkswagen bonus. welcome back. i'm melissa harris-perry and yesterday the confederate flag was removed from the state house grounds again. just a few weeks ago the flag had come down in the hands of an

activist in a courageous act of direct resistance but it was returned to full staff just a few hours later. this time was different. this time the flag came down with the force and fineality of law. [ cheers and applause ] as the flag was lowered for the last time some in the crowd chanted usa while others shed tears and waved american flags. the honor guard carefully and dutifully folded the flag aware of the history being made in that moment. >> hearing the roars of the crowd, again, me personally just gave us a sense of how people come together under tragedy and just to show that unity, if you

will was very humbling to me. >> lieutenant gamble. the flag was later taken to the confederate relic room in a museum as spes specified in the bill that nikki haley signed after debate on the stays house floor wednesday. ultimately the house decided 4-20 to remove the flag which has been displayed on the state house grounds since 1961 when it was put up to symbolize in opposition the civil rights movement. for more than 50 years the flag has flown in the state capital city prompting debate protests and even boycotts over the decades. there was readily visible to residents and visitors alike a constant tangible reminder of the state's rebellion in both the 1860s and the 1960s. until friday. the flag's removal is certainly a symbolic accomplishment that has generated a lot of state

pride as governor haley noted while signing the bill on thursday. >> today i'm very proud to say that it is a great day in south carolina. one person started this almost two decades ago and that was governor david beasley and the last time i saw him i said you started it and he said i need you to finish it. >> now i'm going to have to pause for a moment because i was traveling yesterday at the moment the flag was removed and i watched the ceremony in an airport in north carolina. even as the gate agents started boarding the flight none of us could take our eyes off the screen. i did not expect to be moved. i didn't expect to even care all that much. after all, this isn't a legislative victory for a substantive policy or a supreme court of great consequence. just a flag. it's just a symbol. but there i was holding my breath stunned to see this moment live and i could not stop the tears. it turns out it mattered to me

move more than i thought. so what is it that just happened? what have we accomplished in this moment and what is the work left to be done? joining me now from philadelphia naacp president and ceo cornell william brooks. and joining me by phone from charlotte, north carolina is the activist arrested for removing the state flag last -- the flag from the state house grounds last month. bree, let me start with you. you were one of the last you and the other activists who work with you, in a long line to take it down. why does it matter? >> thank you for having me on. i really think this is a battle over ideology and really a historical narrative that is manifesting in this battle over the single flag. the reason there are so many emotions tied up into this is it is about the reconciling with the past and deciding where we want to go with our future. and so just the very fact that

you know us removing the flag even as we did, we didn't burn it or cause any damage to it it still struck a very strong nerve with the nation because a lot of these issues are still unresolved. we are steel really dealing with issues of racial injustice and segregation in america. >> corenell, let me come with you because despite the overwhelming vote of the state of south carolina lawmakers, the u.s. congress decided to have a contentious debate about the flag this week. we also know that seven states have kind of rebel flag-inspired designs. is it over or is this just the beginning? >> it's far from over. it's a delight to be here. i want to say to my sister bree, as a son of south carolina and president of the naacp, i commend your patriotic gutsiness in terms of retrieving that flag. the naacp maintained an economic boycott for 15 years running to

bring down that flag. and the prospect in the wake of the tragedy, in the wake of bree's civil disobedience getting bigger the governor pressured the legislature to bring the flag down. we expect to see the same elsewhere in the country. i can certainly imagine a similar scenario for example in the state of mississippi. but we have to be clear here. the issue is not merely dealing with the symbol of bias and bigotry but the substance. we have some serious voting rights challenges serious school inequities serious employment challenges and so the naacp meeting in philadelphia this week we're not merely talking about the flag. we're talking about bringing down the confederate flag and symbols of that bygone era in terms of the confederacy but we're also talking about, for example, americans' journey for justice, marching from selma to washington, d.c., in august to deal with voting rights to deal

with employment, racial profiling. so we have to be clear here. we're not content to feast on a symbolic victory only as important as it is and that was a tremendously moving moment for me. i want to be clear here. i grew up in south carolina. i grew up in and around charleston. what bree did moved me profoundly. the flag coming down moved me profoundly but also the sacrifices of people for years, years on end, that moves me because they understand. we have to have symbolism and substance which means we want more and that means this fight continues. >> indeed. bree i want to come to you on this idea of symbolism and substance. the sense that all of us had watching you just a couple weeks ago initially as active civil disobedience retrieve that flag, i am reminded you were an

activist before this moment you will continue your work after it, but you will always be connected and you personally even more than all the activist community that was around you, that was supporting you in that moment, and so i wonder about that if you can reflect on how the work of symbols and the work of the work can sometimes become difficult because we're not just trying to purge symbols, we're trying to make real change. >> absolutely. i think what president brooks spoke to is entirely correct. part of what i'm really striving to do is make sure that people don't forget the recent history. that's the only thing, a lot of times these symbols and these symbolic gestures like with the civil disobedience can be very important moments of revelation for us but it's important that we don't just get caught unassembled. it's not just about the flag coming down. i mean i'm trying to make sure

everyone remembers that this flag was raised in 1962 as a statement against the civil rights movement. and like president brooks said people have been fighting ever since to have the flag taken down not just because it's about the flag but because of what it represents. and so the whole choice that we made at that time about me as a black woman taking it down and handing it off to a white man and both of us being descendents of the south and descendents of this heritage and this legacy is to make sure we elevated the the conversation. if we allowed the process to go through and the legislature to remove the flag all of that might have been lost. we wanted to make sure it's not just about a flag. it's about our culture. it's about our values as a nation and everything that we have come through and taking a stance. we don't want to be in this position in another 50 years. we don't want to keep fighting this battle. >> cornell, let me ask you a

last brief question here. bree was talking about the recent history. nine south carolinians slaughtered, murdered in their church. yes, there was a flag flying at that moment. yes, it maintained at full staff after their murders. i also don't want to lose them. we feel so good about the victory but i want to keep remembering that those nine lives were lost. >> absolutely, melissa. we have to think about this. the blood of african-americans is not free. and the fact that nine students of scripture, our brothers and sisters, could be slaughtered in a church. that a bureaucratic state, a criminal check system led to dylann roof having that gun.

we can't blank the fact our president called for strengthening the nation's gun laws and was criticized and subject to criticism that dylann roof got the gun lawfully and therefore we can't talk about the unlawful purchase of guns. the point here being we have to have symbolism with the reck nichl the blood of the slaughtered, the blood of the slaughtered must not be forgotten here. those nine families remember and we have to as well. >> i want that flag down but i want those nine people back even more. there's nothing we can do but i don't want to forget that either. cornell brooks in philadelphia have a great naacp conference. all eyes will be on you all and thank you to bree newsome on the phone from charlotte north carolina. as soon as you can be with us, bree, we're excited about the work you do. we'll talk about white house hopeful donald trump. no really we'll talk about his comments on immigration and why

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iran and six world leaders have given themselves until monday to reach an agreement. the foreign minister said talks had made some progress and thursday secretary of state john kerry stressed these negotiations are very technical and should not be rushed. joining me now is andrea mitchell nbc news chief foreign affairs correspondent. host of "andrea reports." we understand the sides are divided over a set of u.n. sanctions. what more can you tell us about this? >> reporter: melissa good morning to you. there is a big sticking point and there has been all week. the question whether they are narrowing their differences on this. iran emphasizing this week they

wanted the security council to lift the arms embargo, three different resolutions that have been banning arms deliveries to iran and sales from iran including on ballistic missiles since 2006. there were three resolutions in 2006 2007 2009 and those are very important arms embargo resolutions according to the white house, but russia is backing iran on this. this was the first instance since we've been here really since 20 months ago when this all started, that russia was siding with iran russia and china, from the security council, on how this u.n. resolution would be worded and whether or not that arms embargo would be lifted. their self-interest, they are an arms sales country. they wanted to make money by selling arms to iran and the fear by the white house as testified to by the chairman of the joint chiefs only this week was that would mean more arms going to prop up syria's president assad and other arms

dealings that iran has in the region. so it was a nonstarter from the white house perspective. a lot of pressure from even democrats in the senate this week on the president not to yield on this point and the iranian complaint was that they thought there was some give on kerry's side until he spoke with the president at a secure videoconference on wednesday night and they argued that then the u.s. was reneging on what compromises may or may not have been offered. my take is there's a lot of posturing on both sides. neither side wants to be blamed from walking away from the table after all this time. the u.s. does want to get it done. they believe that every time the iranians go back between rounds that they get toughened up because of all the pressure from hard-liners in tehran and john kerry will have to sell this to a lot of skeptics on capitol hill from both parties. we don't know if it will get done this weekend. a lot of signs pointing to a possibility at least of tomorrow. >> thank you to nbc's andrea

mitchell in vienna. all eyes will remain. this is of crucial importance to the whole globe. up next, the presidential candidate who has had much to say about immigration. he's heading to a key border state today. bring us your aching and sleep deprived. bring us those who want to feel well rested. aleve pm. the only one to combine a sleep aid... plus the 12 hour pain relieving strength of aleve. be a morning person again, with aleve pm.

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they're not sending you. they're not sending you. they're sending people that have lots of problems and they're bringing those problems with us. they're bringing drugs. they're bringing crime. they're rapists and some, i assume are good people. >> despite being inaccurate and being offered many chances to walk back his comments he's continued to double down as he did in an interview with nbc's katie tur this week. >> i have great respect for the country of mexico. i love the mexican people and their spirit. the country of mexico is killing us. the country of mexico is taking our jobs. they're killing us at the border. >> he repeated that sentiment again in california last night after meeting with families who say they've lost loved ones killed by undocumented immigrants. in the wake of his inflammatory and, again, mostly false comments, companies have rushed to cut ties with trump.

while many doubt trump has a serious chance for the presidency, it is clear that he is being taken seriously by some important voters. a poll show him leading the gop field in the super tuesday state of north carolina. and in a close second in new hampshire. that means the republican establishment has been forced to take trump seriously, too. several of the presidential candidates have denounced his comments. "the washington post" reports that rnc chairman reince priebus spent nearly an hour on the phone wednesday urging him to tone down the comments. trump tried to paint it as a congratulatory call but did say he asked him to dial it back a bit. he will appear with the controversial sheriff of maricopa county known for his, let's call it tough approach on undocumented immigrants.

joining me now from phoenix, amanda, what in the world is donald trump up to today? >> reporter: good morning, melissa. it's significant donald trump will be appearing next to a self-described toughest sheriff and one of the most divisive in the immigration debate so far. this opens a preview of what to expect later this afternoon. i mean he has been federally convicted for racially profiling latinos. he's currently in the midst of a contempt of court hearing after he admitted to actively defying a court order to stop racially profiling folks, and it doesn't even end there. he even admitted an attorney of his hired a private investigator to spy on the wife of the judge presiding over the case. so all around this he is not the typical sheriff you would see for a presidential campaign. yeah, he's bringing in massive amounts of crowds here. we're expecting some 5,000

people to come to phoenix here later this afternoon. in many ways he does have a following, he's a vigilante, going above and beyond immigration laws even if federal courts are deeming them to be unconstitutional but it is significant that donald trump will be coming here. this is a place where there's a very active pro-immigrant rights community where they had to battle many of these divisive laws in arizona. we're expecting them to protest in pretty strong numbers outside of the crowd here and so we should see an interesting dynamic on the border state later this afternoon. >> thank you to amanda sukuma in phoenix, arizona. juan manuel benitez, political reporter and host on new york one, basil michael, executive director of the new york state party. alina daz, the immigrant rights

clinic at new york university of law. and joining me now is christina jiminez, co-founder and managing director of united we dream. let me start with you. there is a kind of joking about this whole trump discourse going on in the media and for many of us. oh, it's so funny he is saying these sort of patently ridiculous and, again false final with data kind of things. it doesn't feel funny at all to me. >> this is not at all funny, melissa. the latino and immigrant community are taking donald trump's comments very seriously. they are deeply offensive. and, to be quite frank, what you have seen in the last couple of weeks, he has completely galvanized the latino immigrant community. you're going to see protests today in arizona, you will see he will be in california the next few weeks and you will see them wherever he's going to show

up. that is the reality. but one of the things i want to mention here is what he is really showing here is the divide that exists within the republican party, right, when you have seen a party that the only thing that has promoted is deportation, deporting people like my own parents, like myself, and a party that has been promoting hate and fear when it comes to immigration. >> so hold on for me. this is exactly what when i very first heard trump's discourse and now as he keeps doubling down on it, is it a public art project project, taking things that have been turned into dog whistle and just laying them bare saying them plain. >> i think he's just trying to take this as far as he can and so far he's been really successful. he's a media savvy person. the problem for republicans he has effectively hijacked the republican primary process and also the republican party because now every single presidential candidate is forced

to react to every single new issue, new topic that donald trump brings out on the table. so it's really worrisome for the republican party and some members of the gop have tried the last few years to really court the hispanic vote in many different areas with many different messages. now all the work they've done is destroyed. >> and yet -- so on the one hand that's my feeling of, like, in a certain way, welcome -- welcome, mr. trump, to this conversation because the things you say lead to this distancing. on the other hand i am worried the repetition of some of this discourse when there is so much anti-immigration, the sort of latent bias can inflame it in ways that we may not fully expect at the moment. so we're just looking at the crime stats, right that in fact undocumented immigrants are less than 4% of the total population, that four out of five drug arrests involve u.s.

citizens not people who are undocumented or otherwise. non-u.s. citizens make up 5% of the prison population. these are the realities but it's hard not to flick that anti-immigrant bias on. >> absolutely. trump's remarks really tap into a long and ugly history of using fear of crime as a way to target racial and ethnic minorities in this country, and it's a real problem because it's not only inaccurate, as you said. study after study including a recent report by the american immigration council out this month have shown that immigrants are less likely to commit crime than u.s.-born citizens and immigration including undocumented immigration has increased as crime rates have fallen. so there's really not this association. more than that it's a dangerous political game to be playing because when immigrants do commit crime, they don't commit crime because they're immigrants. they commit crime for all of the reasons people generally commit crime and by saying that

deportation or harsh immigration issues is the solution you're taking attention away from the real problems. why aren't we talking about getting guns off the streets or increasing treatment for drug addiction? these are the kinds of issues -- poverty, education -- that are involved with driving crime. but, instead, we're targeting hard-working people and calling whole groups of people criminals when it's simply not true. >> when we come back basil, i want to ask you about how then to go back to the point on how then this operates for the democratic party as well and then start asking the questions that we're not asking in the midst of all of this madness. up next, a homicide arrest has ignited the debate on sanctuary cities. fire it up! ♪ am i the only one with a meeting? i've got two. yeah we've gotta go. i gotta say it man this is a nice set-up. too soon. just kidding. nissan sentra. j.d. power's "highest ranked compact car in initial quality."

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an undocumented immigrant and a mexican national with a lengthy fal any wrap sheet and five deportations. he's pled not guilty to first-degree murder. also on trial the policy. like these cities limit cooperation between the local police and federal immigration agents. they say the seven prior convictions should have caused him to be deported. he finished serving a multiyear prison sentence for felony re-entry. he was transferred to the custody of a san francisco county sheriff's department based on an outstanding arrest warrant. weeks later released from the city jail after local prosecutors dropped a drug

charge against him. u.s. immigration and customs enforcement, known as i.c.e. said it had issued a retainer of his release so they could deport him. instead san francisco authorities released lopez sanchez without alerting the federal authorities. the detainer was not honored says i.c.e. spokeswoman in a statement that we received via e-mail. san francisco's sheriff says they do not comply with immigration detainers and only turns over people to the federal government if there are active warrants against suspects. for more on the role of sanctuary cities the director of the immigrants rights project joins us from san francisco. so help us to understand what a sanctuary city actually is. >> good morning, melissa. first, the murder of katherine steinly is a tragedy all of us who live in san francisco are grieving about but all of the media frenzy that's been driven

by false information has led to an unfortunate and dangerous situation for public safety. it's important to note this phrase sanctuary city can encompass a very wide range of local policies that either cities or counties or in some cases, states have decided to implement. number one in the name of public safety and, number two, because federal courts have held that it is unconstitutional for localities to detain this people based on the say-so of a single i.c.e. agent who issues this piece of paper called an i.c.e. detainer. we need to be clear about the media discussion and in the policymaking discussion that's going on right now. san francisco's city ordinances did not have anything to do with the fact that sanchez was on the

streets and shot her. i.c.e. could have picked up sanchez. it knew that he was in san francisco's custody. i.c.e. failed to pick him up and put him in deportation proceedings. that's the plain and simple fact. san francisco after many years of study and a history of law making going back to 1985 came to a considered decision that it wanted to avoid liability for holding people illegally on the say-so of a single i.c.e. agent and, secondly was focused on public safety and the pronven fact when local police departments get into the business of enforcing civil immigration laws, they alienate a whole portion of the local community and people are afraid to come forward and report crimes and serve as witnesses. cities and counties and states around the country have similar

policies, and the rush to judgment right now is an unthinking knee-jerk reaction based on a very unfortunate and unusual case. that would be a shame. >> cecillia that point basil, i want to come to you on. nothing is more important in an election year than unthinking knee-jerk reaction to public policy. that's what drives our electoral politics. i just wanted to think about how this is impacting the democratic side as well. hillary clinton saying on the gop this question about sort of when she is talking about trump, i want to listen to that and read what she said in relationship to this case. >> they're on a spectrum of you know, hostility, i think is regrettable in a nation like ours, all the way to grudging acceptance but refusal to go with a pathway to citizenship. i think that's a mistake. >> if you're responding to trump, you can do the continuum

of hostility. in response to the san francisco case, mrs. clinton saying the city made a mistake not to deport someone, that the federal government strongly felt should be deported and, by the way, had been deported five times. so the deportation might not be that useful. how a moment like this becomes basically an immigration willie horton. >> i think that's a fair point in that this is about knee-jerk reaction and raw emotion as you mentioned earlier. and i think she's correct in that. no republican has really come out and said this is wrong. we should not be having this kind of conversation. and what it does it forces the republicans to be not a national party but a regional party or even just a congressional party. and every major argument supporting immigration reform undermines every republican argument against it. in terms of economics, just the

fact if you promote immigration reform, you grow the gdp 4.8%. my point is that i think what hillary is saying and cecillia said earlier, you can't blame cities for, in some respects saying we don't want to be in the business of going after folks that are undocumented. we don't want to be in the business of that. we need them to help us do our jobs. in terms of the federal government, maybe we need to strengthen certain aspects with cities. we certainly should not alienate these communities. >> cecilli an thank you for making the point this is a tragedy. it's tough but it's also not the best context for making reasonable, informed policy. thank you so much for joining us from san francisco. we are going to stay on this topic when we come back and i'm bringing back in cristina jiminez and the rest of my table. enez and the rest of my table.

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message jeb bush had a more sympathetic view because of his mexican-born wife. in new hampshire on wednesday bush had this response while outlining how he would reform immigration policy as president. >> you can love the mexican culture. you can love your mexican-american wife and also believe we need to control the border. this is a bizarre kind of idea that somehow you can have an affection for people in a different country and not think the rule of law should apply. this is ludicrous. >> there's a lot of mexico love going on in the gop these days. >> this is really problematic. >> you think? >> republicans think that donald trump controversy sooner or later is going to disappear. he's going to self-destruct. however, this is the summer of anti-immigration sentiment thanks to donald trump so next year when jeb bush tries to portray his wife front and center to put her out there to appeal to mexican voters as a

mexican wife of the presidential candidate, mexicans and latinos are not going to buy it because they're going to ask him where were you when we were being beaten up by the republican party last summer? >> remember we also have republican debates starting in a few weeks. >> that is right. >> and so he is going to be there front and center and there are other candidates that might not even get a seat at these debates and i wonder then what kind of tacit support other republican candidates are going to have for a lot of the statements? will there be broad repudiation or will they stand there and let him pontificate? >> cristina i wonder what air this is sucking out of the room for a more substantive conversation? what questions are we not asking about being undocumented in the u.s.? >> exactly. this is beyond the conversation about, you know border security. the question for republicans and, honestly all presidential

hopefuls, is what are you doing about the fact that immigrant families are facing deportation every day? in florida, in texas, in arizona we're seeing people continue to get deported an injunction has halted the program, that would have protected up to 5 million people including people like my own parents from deportations. it's such a shame and it's a little gain. so the question is, you know for jeb bush trump and others do you support a temporary programs that can protect people from deportation right now, and if you don't, you don't start with our communities. saying that you support immigration reform is not enough. we need the details. we need the commitment from all presidential hopefuls that they are with immigrant families that they will protect immigrant families and, honestly we don't have short-term memory. latinos and immigrant voters are going to remember what trump, what bush and others have said. and up to this point, all republican presidential hopefuls

have said that they are against a temporary programs and they're not really offering solutions. >> what can republicans substantively do? >> they really need to come out strongly against this rhetoric, and we see it from both parties. both parties are now taking some subset and demonizing them. the republicans are demonizing the larger group, to be sure. they use labels like criminal aliens and other kinds of fear mongering words in order to justify mass deportation. what any leader that's coming out should say is that we want to create a system that's fair for everyone. it's not about who deserves it. most americans don't know that people face deportation without the rights to counsel. we need to change that.

>> thank you to cristina jimenez in washington, d.c., and here in new york thank you to juan benitez and basil smikel. i'll try to have you badge for our "magic mike" conversation tomorrow. our foot soldier this week helped helped. ugh! heartburn! no one burns on my watch! try alka-seltzer heartburn reliefchews. they work fast and don't taste chalky. mmm...amazing.

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of women the world over, the nonprofit bakery finances an ambitious baker training program by selling a wide selection of delicious, diverse breads out of its east harlem cafe. our friend dorian warren host of "nerding out" went to hot bread kitchen to see what it's cooking up. >> i'm at hot bread kitchen with the ceo and founder and jessamin, i want to ask you about bread. >> i think what makes bread amazing is that it is global and it's universal. nearly every culture in the world has a staple starch or a bread that they're passionate about. the hot bread kitchen is more than a bakery. we bake bread to create educational opportunities for women. most parts of the world women bake bread but in north america and there europe men get good jobs in the baking industry. so i had this idea of creating a social enterprise that married

the passion and skill that women have in this art form and hopefully creating a new job pipeline for women who would succeed in their work. >> reporter: so walk me through how the training program works. >> what we offer is a paid on-the-job training program which is quite intensive. in addition to that we offer classroom education that includes english classes, kitchen math, computer literacy resume and interview skills. >> >> reporter: what do you enjoy most? >> everything. i never touched anything in the kitchen so for me to be doing this is a big step for me. hopefully i'll be going to a nice bakery. that's what i would love to do. i want to keep on baking so i can learn more and expand my horizons. >> reporter: many of the women you've recruited to work here and be trained here bring recipes from their home countries. >> i like to say we're the

united nations of bread. since we've started, we've trained women from 21 different countries. >> just use your hand. >> we have breads from morocco and iran mexico poland. many of the breads that we produce here everyday come from the recipes that women know. so something they might have made at home something their mother might have taught them or something they just loved eating at their home country that we work to develop here in the home kitchen. >> what does hot bread kitchen mean for this community? >> a lot of opportunity. if you want to come work here, that's a big opportunity or if you want to just come here and buy bread, that's another big opportunity because you know you can never run out of bread. i live in east harlem everyday i walk to work proud. >> reporter: what is the most satisfying aspect of all of this for you? >> we have placed women at some of the best bake reis in new york city. when women come back who've gotten a promotion after being

placed in a bakery or some of our managers are graduates from our program, to see their success and to see their kids one year at the company picnic and see them the next year and their mother is telling me about the promotion she's got at work i get a lot of motivation pride, glory out of the successes. >> >> reporter: i love it. i'm going to give up on this one. that was perfect. i don't want to ruin any more dough for the day. so i have in my hands some persian flat bread, one of over 70 breads made here. i'm going to take a bite. delicious, sesame seeds, it would be even more amazing with hummus. fantastic. right here hot bread kitchen. >> dorian warren kneading bread. thank you for that report. we want to welcome the newest member of nerd land joey

salzman. zoe arrived on monday congratulations to eric and his wife sara and zoe's big sister lucy. we can't wait to meet the newest the igs to our nerdland family. thanks at home for watching. we're doing "magic mike" tomorrow. also i want to mention that while we were in nerdland serena williams won her sixth wimbledon title, which is her fourth grand slam championship in a row. congratulations. when we come back tomorrow 10:00 a.m. eastern we'll talk about women and sports and the real, real magic of "magic mike." i don't know if i can beat dorian warren. now it's time for a preview of week end's with alex wit. >> this is exciting. there's zoe, magic mike serena. there's a lot going on. thank you for that. plus the bread. i'm hungry now. let's get to this everyone. the debate over so-called sanctuary cities is getting more heated.

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