we continue to follow breaking news as we come on the air this afternoon. two shootings just 6 miles apart in tennessee. the first at a military recruiting center. the other happening minutes later at a naval reserve center. officials say a single gunman is responsible for both. he is now dead. we are waiting for an update from authorities. but we did hear from the governor a few moments ago. and we expect to hear from him again this hour. >> lives have been lost from some faithful people who were serving our country. and i think i join all in being both sickened and saddened by this. >> pete williams has been working his sources on this. reset here for us. >> now told by several officials, state and federal,

that three people were wounded and five people are dead as a result of today's shooting. all of the fatalities -- >> pete we're going to go right now to chewing. authorities there are giving us an update on the shooting. >> two different locations, people who proudly served our country. over the last couple hours i've spent a lot of time with individuals who work for the city of chattanooga and for hamilton county who work at our medical facility at erlanger who proudly deserve our thanks and praise for the way that they responded. they were amazing in what they did, and we know of no active issues right now. we do know that we have four individuals who were killed who are victims. we know that the shooter was killed at the scene as well. also one chattanooga police

officer was shot in the ankle and has been treated very well at erlanger as well as there were some other individuals who were shot and have also been treated. i want to say again it is incomprehensible to see what happened and the way that individuals who proudly serve our country were treated. two different locations this individual went to. and as a city we will respond to this with every available resource that we have. i have behind me individuals from the fbi, the atf, hamilton county, chattanooga police department, the u.s. attorney every single resource that we can summon. this is, as i said a nightmare for the city of chattanooga. one to which we will respond.

with that i'll give -- >> very quick. the shooter or is that a fifth person? >> that's a fifth person. chief? >> thank you mr. mayor. the mayor shared all the details of the incident and the investigation that we're prepared to share right now. i'd like to echo his apology for taking a while to get to you all. our primary concern was the welfare of our community, checking on our officers and making sure we coordinated with our partners from the county, the state and the federal government. what we do know is somebody brutally and brazenly attacked members of our armed services and that officers responded immediately and they were able to make sure that no further loss of life happened. i'm extremely proud of them and the community of chattanooga for making sure that we responded in a timely and a courageous manner. thank you. >> i'm the united states for the

eastern district of tennessee. this is a sad day for the united states. these service members served their country with pride and they have been the victims of these shootings. we are conducting this as a -- an act of domestic terrorism. the fbi is now in charge of this investigation. and i will turn over when i get through to the special agent in charge to discuss with you what he can and what he will about this ongoing investigation. i have nothing but praise and admiration and congratulations to the city of chattanooga police department, hamilton county sheriff's department for their quick and effective and efficient response. we have a combined federal,

state, and local investigation. we cannot and will not share facts of that investigation with you. at such time that we can admit certain facts or present certain facts in evidence to you, we will. that investigation will be a joint one with atf coordinating at -- i'm sorry with fbi coordinating, with atf, homeland security tennessee's department of homeland security chattanooga police department, and others. again, we are treating this as an act of domestic terrorism. ed? >> afternoon. again, i want to echo the mayor and the chief's comments and the

u.s. attorney's comments and that is that the response by the local law enforcement was overwhelming. they were able to neutralize the threat and there is no longer a threat to the communicate that we're aware of. we will conduct a thorough investigation in concert with chattanooga police department and our other partners to make sure that this matter is completely resolved. that's all i have. i don't know if anybody else wants to speak. it's ed ryan hold. i'm the special agent in charge of the fbi. >> can you or the chief put further perspective of how the gunman ended up dead? was it at his own hands or -- >> at this point, i'm not going to discuss any of that. we're in the preliminary stages of this investigation. we have active crime scenes that we're investigating right now. we have significant amount of resources, both the fbi and chattanooga police department, and other agencies have dedicate

the significant resources. we expect probably by the end of the day, we will have several hundred fbi resources on scene to conduct this investigation. >> you can't tell us if he shot himself or someone shot him? >> at this point again we have not conducted a complete crime scene -- >> you don't know the answer to that question though? >> i have a suspicion to the answer to that question. >> are we currently at a threat level? >> no higher threat level than we were before. >> can you confirm the two -- >> i'm sorry. >> can you confirm the two different locations? >> there were two separate locations. both of them were military facilities. both naval reserve facilities here in chattanooga. >> is there any kind of timeline for which shooting happened first? >> we believe the one over on lee highway occurred first and i believe this is probably part of the record chattanooga pd began

pursuit of the individual is. >> where exactly were the marines killed? >> all of the victims that were killed were over at the naval reserve center on amnicola highway. >> were there victims wounded and not killed in the exchange? >> yes. there are some victims being treated at local hospitals. i believe total of three including the police officer. >> is there any indication that this might be tied to the trial that's going on? >> we have no indication it's tied to anything at this point. >> do you know if the suspect is local from chattanooga? >> we believe he's probably from this area or at least residing in this area prior to the event? >> do you know where he was living? >> no not at this point. >> does he have a military background himself? >> not that we're aware of. again, let me emphasize. this is a brand-new investigation. we have received a lot of information to this point we're trying to process. we want to make sure we get it right before we release any

information to the public. >> can you tell us why you think it's domestic terrorism? that's a strong statement to make this early. >> no. we will treat this as a terrorism investigation until it can be determined that it was not. >> what was the suspect armed with? >> numerous weapons and i'm not going to go into details as to what those were. >> was he wearing body armor? >> not that i'm aware of. >> nothing bullet action right? >> i'm not going to discuss what he had on him at the time. [ inaudible question ] >> because the families have not been notified, we're still in the process of processing the scene, i'm not going to release any particulars about the victims at this point. >> does that rule out any link to possible isis maybe? >> no. we are looking at every possible avenue whether it was terrorism, domestic international, or whether it was a simple criminal act. >> do you believe do you believe

the shooter has accomplices in chattanooga? >> we're at the beginning of this investigation we have not ruled out any possibilities at this point. >> how can we get more info? >> you can contact the public affairs officer at our knockville office or the headquarters in washington d.c. >> you have not determined it's an act of -- >> we have not determined it was an act of terrorism or whether it was a criminal act. [ inaudible question ] >> again i'm not going to discuss him at this point because we have active investigations and i don't want to put any of my personnel or the chattanooga pd's personnel at risk at this point. >> pardon me? >> did the shooter die on amnicola amnicola? >> he did, yes. >> how many rounds did he shoot? >> we don't know yet. >> what time did the two different incidents happened? >> it started around 10:45 and

ended within 30 minutes. >> are there any other military installations within the state or area that are also maybe on lockdown or on alert at this time? >> we've notified other military facilities in the state of tennessee or within the area. it's their decision whether or not they wanted to go into lockdown or not. >> what's the difference between a terrorism investigation and a crime investigation? >> the investigation itself probably not a whole lot of difference. it's just determination of the motivation. >> so motive determines whether it's terrorism or just crime? >> yes. >> what's the difference? >> a disgruntled employee, for example. i'm just using that example because he did not work at the facilities. if he's motivated by say, isil or somebody else then that would be an act of terrorism. >> have you determined any kind of motive or if he had any connection to any of the marines that were killed? >> we have no. >> did he have other tarkts in

chattanooga? >> not that we're aware of. >> people still locked down in businesses, is that lockdown lifted or is it at the discretion of the business? >> chief? >> we have officers from this -- from my jurisdiction, from the hamilton county sheriff's office and neighboring jurisdictions making sure everybody in this community is safe. those decisions are made with the business owners and the homeowners. the decisions are made for the specific conditions of that area. we've seen units to every place that might need them. >> is it possible people could be staying the night at their place of business? >> absolutely. if they need help they should call 911. and chattanooga police department is here to help them. >> are recruitment centers considered gun-free zones? >> i don't know the answer to that. it's federal property. typically someone cannot bring a weapon into federal property unless they're authorized to do so. >> what steps are going to happen now in the investigation? >> obviously we're going to look at the shooter.

we're going to do an intense look at him to see if -- what his connections are. we'll look at his friends, family associates anybody associated with him to determine the cause or the reason why he conducted this attack. >> will surveillance metta data from the nsa and other agencies be used to determine the use of his phone, computer, searches and other things like that? >> i will say the fbi will use any and all means available to conduct a thorough investigation. >> how old was the suspect? >> i don't know yet. >> did he have a phone? >> i'm not going to discuss what he had with him at the time. >> was chattanooga ever designate add no-fly zone today? >> i believe there was a no-fly zone over the area of the crime scene. >> any reason to believe others involved? >> no, we believe it was a single shooter at this point. >> what was the time -- [ inaudible question ]

>> it's about a 15 mile distance. so probably five minutes between the two shootings. >> [ inaudible question ] >> he was in a vehicle, i'm not going to describe it. you've probably already seen it. >> was there prior indication that there might be an attack today? >> no we had no intelligence indicating an attack today. >> the officer shot was he responding or ambushed? >> he was involved in the pursuit and engaged the individual at the location there. >> is that the officer who was injured in the gunfire? >> i believe it is yes. chief? >> there are numerous chattanooga and hamilton county officers who responded. they arrived on the scene extremely quickly and they actively and enthusiastically engaged this braszen criminal. and one of those officers was injured by gunfire from this criminal. >> so you don't know if it's the same officer who pursued from the first location? >> we are confirming that.

there were several officers involved. this incident occurred very close to where you're standing right now which shows the brazen nature of the act. police officers came from around this community to make sure that everybody here is safe. >> let me say one more thing. do not get caught up in labels. the fbi and the other agencies are going to investigate this case thoroughly. they will determine after the facts are determined whether it's an act of terrorism at all, whether it's a crime and what the nature of that crime is or whether it's a combination of those. and i would encourage you to not put a label to the investigation at this point. whether it be international, domestic or any other kind of terrorism, including criminal acts. >> i've got a question. the illegal federal spying system from the nsa is very good at forensic recreation of crimes

and arrangements and plots. how -- was that -- was that system at all in play in trying to pin this off or was there any word on that -- the buildup of this confrontation? >> i will tell you that the fbi and the other agencies will utilize every resource and every personnel they have to thoroughly investigate that case. and they are doing that as we speak. they will continue to. >> that the shooter was former military? >> we don't have any information on that. no comment. >> are you going to his home to see if he had anything there? is there any type of investigation going on there right now? >> the fbi and the other agencies are thoroughly investigating this case. they will use every mechanism, every procedure, and every available resource to do so. >> all right. thank you all very much. we'll update you when we have something new to report. >> thank you. >> listening to -- you have been

listening to authorities in chattanooga, tennessee, including a special agent at the fbi giving us an update on the shooting that happened there earlier this morning around 10:50 a.m. first at a naval recruiting center. then 6 miles away at a naval reserve center. they believe it was one gunman. they were praising the first responders that got to the scene this morning. as of now, they say no active issues at this time. five killed one of them was the gunman. they say a chattanooga police officer was shot in the ankle. currently being treated. we expect to hear from the governor of tennessee in just a few minutes. i want to bring pete williams back into the conversation. we interrupted you for this press conference. if you can reset this for us. >> well, so here's the situation. at 10k 45 this morning, a man with a gun started opening fire at a combined armed forces recruiting center in chattanooga on lee highway. we think one person was injured

there. then this gunman drove to a second location 6.5 miles away at the u.s. navy marine reserve center, continued firing. was fired on by police and when all of it was over, according to state and federal officials, the gunman was dead although we don't know if it was because the police shot him or he shot himself, three people were wounded including we believe a police officer and two people who worked at that second facility, and four marines were killed. and the officials have not yet said anything about the motivation or the identity of the gunman. they have been fairly straightforward in staying that they don't know whether he has a military background. they don't know whether he -- they did say as far as they knew he didn't work at either of these two facilities. so it doesn't sound like some kind of workplace violence. but whether he has a connection

to the military whether he was inspired by social media, whether he was inspired by terrorism, they say they don't know any of that yet. i think it's fair to say that they probably do know his identity. we don't. i think it's fair to say that they are now searching his house or apartment, wherever he's from. remember, that they have his car, that they could work from. so that would be one means of identifying him and he may or may not have had identity on him when he was killed. so they have many means to try to identify him, including fingerprints and other things available to them. so presumably they know who he is and they have started to do searches look through his social media. but they did say, i thought it was interesting, that they believe he acted alone. no one else was involved in the shooting today. >> in the press conference we heard, talking about they're exploring this as a domestic terrorism.

is that a common place to start in an investigation like this? does that give them different functionality? speak to that a little bit if you can. >> frankly, at this point, it doesn't mean much. because these were federal employees at federal facilities that were targeted that's really what makes the big difference here. that's why the fbi is in the lead now to investigate what happened here. but whether it's domestic terrorism or not, that doesn't frankly mean anything. and the u.s. attorney came back and said don't get too hung up on labels. they just don't know yet. >> thank you so much for joining us. joining us now is former fbi profiler clint van zandt. and retired fbi special agent in charge jim cavanaugh. the atf is one of several agencies involved in the investigation right now. walk us through what they would be doing at this moment. >> atf's on all the joint

terrorism task forces. they assist fbi and all that. aff's going to be looking at the weapons. the agent in charge for the fbi said there were a lot of weapons there. or the chief did. one of them said that. so they're going to be tracking those, what are they where did he get them. they look at the bombs, guns bullets trying to work that angle for the terrorism task force. but the fbi, the police, the sheriffs, the state troopers they're all going to be trying to find out where this guy lived, get search warrants. get in there, get his computers. get the data out, sue if there's any co-conspirators. he is a one-off actor. if he's dead there's no prosecution to be pursued. >> clint van zandt, let me get you in here. i just wanted to get your reaction to the press conference that we were just listening to. any pieces of information that particularly jumped out at you

as being significant here? >> well, again we talk about this as domestic violence, domestic terrorism, i should say. right now, we don't know and i think as pete williams said, we don't really care. the fbi is in there. they along with atf and any other federal agencies they'll take the lead because it was a crime on a government reservation, because it was a crime against u.s. military personnel. so they'll have the lead. but by and large, should there have been a prosecution, it likely would have been at the local level first. you know and to say this guy has acted alone, this shooter has acted alone, i think right now all we know is that there was no second person in this so described mustang convertible with the top down. as jim says, the fbi tells us there were multiple weapons that this individual had. so there's a lot of investigation still open. >> clint, how much harder is it

to figure out the motive here? the gunman is dead. they say that they do have access to his car. at this point, is it more difficult if the shooter is not alive? >> well, yes and no. i mean he's not -- he's -- in a position obviously that we can't question him. but what's more i guess important at this point for the investigators hopefully they have his cell phone, they'll have his computer. again, they'll be developing this wiring diagram with social media, with conversations with his workplace, they will move from person a, b, c, d they'll move out away from him as far as can. and again what was his inspiration? which was someone simply mad at the military? was this someone taking an inspiration from isis who suggested the military should be attacked? somewhere in between lies the motive. but one of the things we want to

know too is why today. why not yesterday? why not next week? what was the catalyst that had this individual strike today as we try to understand and prevent incidents like this in the future. >> yeah, jim, to clint's point about motive the fbi special agent seemed to say they don't think there's any further threat today. also they think it's a single gunman acting alone. how do they make that determination so quickly and does it still behoouf them to think there may be others involved? >> great question. i can tell you, just like clint said, you're the agent in charge of these things you don't know if there's others that could have supported him and not been present. there's nobody else known to be present, nobody else known to with in the vehicle. so they don't have any other information that he acted in concert with others. that's what they're saying basically. could there be conspirators that

supported him, shipped him guns money, help, encouraged him. you know in 2009 we had a guy from tennessee named carlos bledsoe. he was born in memphis. he got radicalized. he went to yemen came back. he wound up going to an army recruiting center in little rock arkansas and killing a soldier there. he's got life in prison in arkansas. but he came back to nashville. he fire bombed a rabbi's house. he was going to shoot up another recruiting center. so recruiting centers have been the target of various motives, including inspired international terrorist actors. so what the fbi agent in charge is saying is they got a handle on this guy as far as being on the scene, acting in concert with others they think he's alone. they really don't have all the other answers but they're looking for him. in his computer phone, house tracking the guns interviewing witnesses, neighbors and family. the picture's going to come together pretty quick.

and his computer like it is for all of us will be a picture into his mind and into how he's thinking and planning, regardless of the motive. if it's revenge on the marines because he's kicked out, mad because he wasn't let in or some kind of terrorist motive. >> when you read the details out of local media it seems like a bit of a wild west scene. it was a drive-by. reporting 25 to 30 shots fired from an automatic. in the second location, the gunman's able to kill four marines. surely that takes a lot of bullets. what do you make of that volume of bullets flying out of this shooter? >> it sounds like a rifle to me. you know sounds like a high velocity rifle, semi-automatic at least. i think colonel jacobs talked about earlier, a 30-round magazine is pretty standard fare for all these automatic weapons.

22, 25 rounds in the front doors of the recruiting center. and then he gets in his car while the 911 calls are going in and drives up lee highway to go to the naval reserve center up there on the tennessee river. we don't know yet, but he gets out and apparently four marines are dead. probably a high powered rifle. a witness on earlier said extremely loud sounded like a jack hammer. when i hear a witness say that it sounds like a rifle. because a rifle, when you're outside next to one of these rifles, they crack they're so loud. it really stands out in your ear, you really notice it. that's what it sounded like, the repeated crack. and they're very deadly high velocity. so these marines, you know, if that's what it turns out to be sailors maybe, service people. just tragic. they might have been walking across the campus or something. then the chattanooga pd arrives

and pretty quick response. they're responding to active shooter. the guy is mobile. i've gone on those things myself as a uniformed officer. it's tough. the guy's moving, you're shooting. the officer get there is and somehow engages the guy apparently and gets wounded and may kill the guy or the guy kills himself. we're not quite clear how that occurred. >> clint as jim's pointing out there, as we listen to the details of this attack. it was incredibly brazen. it also seems from the choice of the target to the multiple locations, it seems very planned out, very intentional. of course, the gunman did not survive the day. does this bear the hallmarks to you of someone who didn't intend to survive his attack here? >> many times we'll find these individuals engaged like this may not plan to survive. let's grab two recent shooting situations. the one that took place a few

years ago at the navy yard. the individual who had credentials to get inside. he was able to take a pistol away from one of the guards there so he had two weapons. we know of course holmes the shooter in colorado he had a shotgun, a rifle and a handgun. most if not all he used. and the fbi has just told us that there were multiple weapons. so when we see an individual come in with multiple weapons, lots of ammunition this is one who really in his mind in his demented challenged mind saw himself going to war. but he's going to war against innocence. he's going to war against people who can't fight back. he's identifying these locations to go and shoot because he knows our military personnel are represented, but they're not carrying arms. they're not able to defend themselves. so this is someone who fully planned, it would appear, to commit perhaps multiple acts of

mass murder. and then whether he chose to live or die and at whose hands, we still have to determine that. >> you mentioned the shooting in colorado with james holmes. we believe that the verdict will be out tonight at 6:00 p.m. james holmes the verdict will be out at 6:00. we heard from authorities just a few moments ago in chattanooga, tennessee, telling us there is no active issue at this time. the shooter is dead. he went first the naval recruiting center then 6 miles away at the naval reserve center. five have been killed. one includes the gunman. i want to bring in colonel jack jacobs jacobs. unfortunately, we are seeing too many of these scares these actual shootings happen most recently in d.c. at the naval yard. give us a sense how prepared these military facilities are when something like this

happens. are people more on edge? are people more capable of stepping up the minute this happens? >> they are more on edge but there's a great difference between a situation that happened today and on an installation like the navy yard or ft. hood. it's much more difficult to get into a secure military installation. there are fences all around. there are guards at the gates. many of these places do a 100% id check. they also inspect vehicles make them open their trunk and so on. it doesn't make it impossible for people to get on with weapons, but it makes it extremely difficult. here you have a store front. it's in a shopping mall. the military people are not armed. they're on desks just on the other side of the plate glass that the shooter shot through. so i mean those people who are out in the community are especially vulnerable.

they sometimes -- if you talk to police, for example, who are at the cutting edge, at the pointy end of the spear in the communities doing policing they have the same sort of risk as we saw the military people today. they're not behind barb wire. there aren't people on the gates checking people in to see whether or not they're armed and so on. so that's the first thing. it's extremely difficult -- there's a sense that you're at the front of the line but that you're not being -- you're not able really to protect yourself. and at the end of the day, that's their business. their business is to be in the community. the second thing that's of interest here that was not spoken about at any great length in the briefing that we saw and which will come clear over a longer period of time when they get all f information together is the nature of the weapon. we chatted about it a little bit. he had -- it struck me that he

had multiple weapons. it's not surprising but i hadn't thought about that. what was really interesting about the weapon is that though we don't know, it sure sounded like it was an automatic weapon. now semi-automatic rifles are legal. pistols are legal. in most places if not all places, you have to get a license before you can actually buy them and a lot of places you have to make application just to get ammunition. all that notwithstanding, if he had rapid fire weapons and firing 25 to 30 rounds at a time it may very well be that he had a fully automatic weapon. now, fully automatic weapons, machine guns assault weapons that are capable of firing on full automatic are illegal everywhere. it is not rocket science, you don't have to be a gunsmith to change a semi-automatic rifle into a fully automatic rifle. but in any case, because of the

nature of the crime, he went to two separate places he had a lot of weapons, it certainly indicated that he had a lot of planning that went this. including perhaps even changing this particular weapon from a semi-automatic weapon to a fully automatic weapon and having the kind of magazine a magazine that holds as many as 30 rounds and is capable of firing 30 rounds in just a few seconds, indicated that he had a -- a great deal of planning went into this assault. >> thank you all for being with us. we're going to take a quick break. just a quick update. five have been killed. one of them in the gunman. we heart from the authorities in chattanooga tennessee moments ago. we'll be right bag with a lot more on the shooting up next.

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in two locations. we are waiting for the governor to come out and address the nation about the latest about that situation. here with us now, a retired british senior officer. on a day like this and you know because you served for many many years, we speak mostly about the shooter, right, the killer. but i want to speak a little bit about the viblgts and the importance of them. we don't have their identities yet. but we lost four marines today. it takes a lot of time a lot of money, a lot of knowledge that's been build up over many years to build and create marines, some of the greatest fighters in the world. speak about the -- the pain and the difficulty for this country losing four of our best men. >> well, i think the expectation has been over the last 15 years whether you're part of the u.s. marines, the navy the air force, the army is that the most dangerous place to go and serve is either iraq on afghanistan.

we've lost over 4,000 u.s. service men and women in that environment. but the more the islamic state and terrorism me tast sizes from the middle east around the world, it's becoming quite apparent that actually it's a very dangerous place to be as a service man or woman back home as well because you are a target. whether we like it or not, you are a target. back in the u.k. service men and women have been targets of the ira for many many years. it is now coming home to roost on the radical islam side. now we're starting to see that within america. america -- america's borders are no longer the protective borders that we used to think they once were. this is a new mind set we have to start getting into now. we're spending billions if not trillions on foreign policy and

execute policy abroad we have to start thinking what is the security situation like at home. >> this is happening all too often these days. it seems more now than ever at military bases. we heard from officials in chattanooga, tennessee, a few moments ago. there were a lot of questions from reporters about whether this is terrorism, whether they're treating this as terrorism or not. you're speaking to this new world we're living in. a lot of folks that are just unsettled etspecially with isis now trying to get people to go out and hurt people where they are. the mayor spoke to this. he said, as far as we are considering it now, we are treating it as terrorism. speak to that. he said also it's a broad term. what does that mean to treat it as terrorism? >> i think it's -- i think it's a great question. we're definitely living in a new word order at the moment. we're having to adapt to asymmetric warfare.

that means the enemy is no longer in a uniform, they don't abide by conventions. but the definition as far as i'm concerned of terrorism is achieving political objectives through intimidation and violence. at the moment what we see in this particular scenario is we still don't really know the circumstances. we know that four military service personnel, u.s. marines, have been killed. but when we start labeling it as a terrorist act, we're then getting into the motivation side. i don't think we have enough information to understand what the motives were of the shooting. we have seen plenty of reasons that we could put the label of terrorism on. if you look at "charlie hebdo," if you look at you know those type of scenarios, then absolutely. but i don't think we have enough information yet to be able to say this is a terrorist act because we don't know who the shooter is and we don't know what the intent and the motives

were behind that. >> without getting that far, though, what do you make of the significance of the military targets? >> a military target they are by definition or should be a harder target to prosecute. so again, i think the fact that military and service personnel were targeted would, without wanting to speculate, would sort of indicate there is a reason why those military personnel were targeted rather than someone walking into a church in charleston for example and just shooting up the church. now, if there is an association of someone wearing a military uniform with maybe foreign policy or what's going on in iraq or what's going on in syria, what's going on in egypt or somewhere else around the world, we don't know yet. but that could be one of the motives. you target someone who isn't on a military base who doesn't have the usual equipment you would see from a military service

personnel operating abroad. it makes them a slightly easier target and they're a target because of the uniform they're wearing. >> critical to the definition of terrorism, and we're not sure if this is or is not, an attack by soldiers or a person who believes himself to be a soldier on civilians. when you are attacking marines who are not at their post, who are at a recruiting center who are not armed, in this country, not in a soldier's posture, you are attacking basically people who are acting as civilians. that seems to be to tip this more toward terrorism. the authorities are saying let's not fixate on that term. speak to that a little bit. just because we don't know yet what his political motive is doesn't mean that it wasn't. it could be an insane political motive. >> well, it's definitely a crime. it's a homicide and there is a crime scene.

and with every crime scene you need to start looking at the evidence and you need to understand exactly what happened in terms of the way the crime scene played out. and then you need to understand the motives behind the shooter. the shooter doesn't have to be someone in the military. it could be someone that has some sort of either self-proclaimed affiliation or more structured affiliation with maybe a terrorist group. but it could be someone who -- has a mental issue. it could be someone that was bullied at school. it could be someone that maybe tried to get into the services, the u.s. marines and was rejected. there's a whole plethora of reasons for why this might have played out. we jump to the conclusion that it has to be something with radicalization or has to be something with propaganda from the islamic state. we shouldn't be doing that just quite yet. >> right. still a lot of questions that remain to be answered. stick with us.

just to note here we are still waiting on a press conference from the governor. that should be coming any time. i want to bring back in clint van zandt. i was hoping you could pick up on that conversation because i think a lot of us have the sense that our service members and also our law enforcement officers have become more of a target here on our own soil in the u.s. is that in fact the case? >> well, i think it is. and whether it is isis inspired or whether it's some other inspiration, personal or otherwise, our men and women in uniform, whether that uniform be of the military or be of law enforcement, have become targets. and what we find is a shooter like today many times will go to what he believes may be a soft but a target rich environment. in essence a recruiting center

some other place where he knows he's going to find particular targets that he's looking for, but also in his mind he doesn't expect them to have the capability. especially with the weaponry we're talking that this individual may have had to fight back. it's not -- within the last couple years we recall the attack against parliament in canada where that shooter went in and he was going after another symbol the symbol of government, after having gunned down the soldier outside of parliament. he went in and he was going to start gunning people down. and had it not been for that retired police officer who happened to have a gun who was a sergeant at arms he would have gone in and committed an act of mass murder there. so every time one of these incidents happens, unfortunately, it makes us think that we have to secure our facilities and our personnel. and it makes those in uniform,

especially recruiters in military who aren't normally carrying weapons, think that they may have to do something like that to protect themselves. it is a dangerous world we live in. >> that's absolutely right. the first shooting was at the naval recruiting center. and then the shooter went 6 miles from there to the naval reseven center. we don't have all the information in terms of how he got from one place to the next. we also don't know how he ended up being killed. if he shot himself, if police shot him in that situation. in that moment when they're wanting to catch this guy and figure out what the motive was, would they have wanted to keep him alive? >> well, law enforcement i don't think ever goes into a situation to kill anyone. you go to a situation to limit or stop the threat that he presents. again, it's -- you know, in television you see people shooting a gun out of somebody's

hand. the reality is in law enforcement, when bullets are through flying left and right, you're lucky to hold that gun steady and get a sight pattern. so would we like to take anybody alive in a situation like this and the answer is of course we would. not only baulz it's the right thing to do in most cases, but because we're looking for a source of information, too. but again as jim cavanaugh and i and major jack, colonel jack and others have talked about, there are going to be other sources of information, computers, cell phones automobile records as this wiring diagram is created for this person. whatever his inspiration. whether it's just some type of mental illness, whether he didn't like the military for personal reasons, whether he had a significant owe that had been in and out, or whether he was

inspired or self-radicalized on the internet or by other types of readings. the fbi and other agencies will find that out. we heard the fbi's special agent in charge say this afternoon there would be 200 agents on the ground. they'll find out what they have to. >> all right. want to take a quick break. we're waiting any moment to hear from the governor of tennessee to give us an update on the shooting in chattanooga tennessee. we heard from officials a few moments ago five are dead. one of them was the gunman. we'll be right back in a few moments. t! alright, now for the best part. lets see your pour. ooo....let's get those in the bowl these are way to good to waste right?! ohhhh......yeah let's go for it, around the bowl annnddd... share what you love with who you love. kellogg's frosted flakes they'rrrr grreat! good catch, dad! and now try new kellogg's frosted flakes with energy clusters!

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welcome back to the cycle, we are two hours away from the verdict being red in the aurora colorado theater shooting. we're focused on that killing of 5 people in chattanooga, continue ten where a gunman opened fire four marines are dead. we have colonel jack jacobs with us. i want toably you back? and talk again about the marines that we lost today, you're a professor at the war college, you understand the depth and importance of the time and energy that is spent into creating and building marines. your thoughts on the loss of four impeccable extraordinary young men today? >> well you bring up an interesting point, these are the best people this country can produce. we have decided that we are going to have only volunteers

defend the republican and that means we've outsourced the defense of the country to a small number of young men and women who are willing to do it. this is good news of course for a wide variety of reasons. they're all highly motivated and so on but it opens up a big gap between the people who are served, people who are being served, and the people who are serving. i wouldn't begin to argue that an incident like this is a function of that gap that we have a very small number of people who are serving and the fact is that almost nobody in america knows somebody in uniform, but it does contribute having this wide gulf it does contribute to situations like this, and it's something we need to keep an eye on. >> we know the gunman is dead we don't know how he was killed whether he shot himself or if he was killed by police. give us a sense of what would be going on when they do make contact with the shooter, in

terms of the rules of engagement here, is this a situation where they want to keep him alive to figure out what the motive is? i'm assuming there are times where you don't have a choice? >> rules of engagement is a buzz word. they vary from the police forces and the domestic security forces to what your rules of engagement would be. the jenness ens are when you're apprehending someone, it should be a graduated and proportional response up to and including the use of lethal force. that is what is going on in your mind. i did three tours in iraq and afghanistan. things happen very quickly. so before you pull that tricker, you have to asimulate the facts incredibly quickly. you have to work out whether the person you have in the crosshairs is an immediate threat to a colleague, a civilian a member of the public

or to infrastructure. you have to make that assessment quickly. in a dynamic situation it's incredibly hard. if this person's already killed four people i would suggest that the police would err on the side of caution. >> sources now suggesting that law inforcement will be raiding the home of the suspected shooter. you've done these investigations before, what kinds of things are they looking for? >> they want his computer all his writings the contacts his e-mail list everything about him. his papers they're going to interview his neighbors, his family. they're way ahead of us they know why he did this i'd say, there are three or four hours ahead of us. they have an idea now what caused this. >> jim, clint, colonel jacobs thank you all for being with us. we are waiting to hear from the governor of tennessee, we heard earlier this hour there is no active issue at this moment. five have been killed one of them was the gunmen.

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we continue to follow breaking news this hour out of chattanooga, tennessee. officials have confirmed that four people as well as the gunman are dead following a shooting spree that spanned two different military facilities late this morning. all four victims were marines. a police officer and two others were wounded according to law enforcement. the attack began at a navy recruiting center and ended nearly 6 miles away at a separate naval reserve center. the four marines were killed and the gunman was shot the shooting