this morning, my question. who is atticus finch? plus the struggle continues in california. first the question that must be answered what happened to sand sandra bland? good morning, i'm melissa harris perry, and this morning we bring you a story that has more questions than answers, the story of sandra bland. sandra bland was a 28-year-old illinois native, and a few years back she was a student at prairie view a&m university a school about 450 miles west of houston. she performed school on a scholarship and was a member of

a sorority. after graduating in 1998, she moved back to illinois but then returned to texas to start a new job at her alma mater. on friday july 10 sandra was pulled over in clearview, texas by a trooper for failure to signal a lane change. during that traffic stop, sandra quote, became argumentative and uncooperative, according to a statement by police by the state's department of public safety, also called the dps. this is where the story gets fuzzy. a video recorded by a witness shows a woman lying face down on the ground with an officer's knees at her back. though the video is unverified by nbc, sandra's family attorney says that the woman being arrested in the video is indeed sandra bland. we're about to show you that video which captures the arrest but not the moments leading up to it. i do want to warn you, if you haven't seen it yet, some

viewers may find this content quite disturbing. sandra was subsequently taken into custody for assault on a public servant. she was then booked in the waller county jail and arraigned over the weekend. her bond was set at $5,000. on monday sandra was found dead while in the custody of the local waller county texas jail. the reason according to the autopsy, suicide by hanging. this is what we don't know. why did a routine traffic stop escalate into violence? why was her bond set at $5,000? what exactly happened inside that jail cell? waller county jail did not return our multiple requests for a comment, but according to a statement released thursday, dptps

announced, quote, that the department violated procedures on traffic stops and the department's courtesy policy. the policeman was let go of his duties and there is an investigation into sandra's death. the fbi is also investigating. sandra's family is still left with questions. more than 100 protesters marched in texas friday also calling for answers and wondering why sandra bland was driving toward a new beginning only to end up alone in that jail cell in waller county. joining me now are kevin lambert, attorney for the bland family and sarah cooper sandra's sister to discuss the question everybody is asking. what in the world happened to sandra bland? thank you both for being here. what do you think happened? >> thank you. >> we don't knowment. that's the problem.

we are really struggling to get a grip on what it is that did happen, and that's why we're down in houston and that's why we're going about the investigation we're engaged in. we're trying to find that out. >> sarah, did you know that your sister was in the jail over the course of the weekend? had you heard from her? >> yes. we heard from her on saturday july 11 in the midafternoon. she spoke with one of my older sisters. she was indeed in jail and did inform us of the cost of her bail at that time, which we were working on expeditiously to get to her. >> so let me ask you about this because i know all of us are mostly angry, appalled that this young woman ends up dead in this story. but part of what i feel like we skip over is so there was a routine traffic stop and then three days later she was found dead and i kept saying can we

pause on the three days later. i recognize there was a weekend here, but is this a standard practice that somebody would still be in jail three days after being stopped for an illegal lane change? >> it's pretty frustrating that for an illegal lane change she kind of went through the ordeal that she did. then for her to end up dead three days later, it just boggg boggles many many people's minds. i want to know why she was made to get out of the car. i have had occasion to see the dash cam. and i've got some problems with the way that this went down. i've seen the full dash cam, and i have real serious difficulties with the way that stop was conducted.

and i guess -- >> there is dash cam video and you've seen it. may i ask if the family has had an opportunity to see it? >> we have not. as you can imagine, it has been an extremely difficult week continues to be a difficult time especially given the difference in state, so that is something that even just the small clips that we have seen that is available for public consumption, that's difficult to watch. we have not seen the full video. we left that to our attorney. >> i want to play something that i'm not sure i want to play for you, but i do need to get your response to this. this is sheriff glen smith at a press conference, and he's talking about this idea that sandy committed suicide, that you all as a family simply won't accept it. let's take a listen. >> i have never dealt with a suicide that didn't have at least one family member or one close friend that always had a

conspiracy and was never satisfied with what happened. >> so can you respond to the sheriff in this? >> absolutely i would be happy to. i think in this particular case there are just several things that we simply don't understand and we need to understand them to get to a resolution. i think that it is okay to remain curious in any situation that you encounter in life and a situation of this magnitude calls for that level of curiosity and excessive follow-up in some of the questions that we do have. >> it's not just this family that has questions. the groundswell of support that this family has received both locally and nationally i know they're so grateful for it.

but part of the reason there is this ground swell is there is a national concern about what's been going on. >> let me ask you this are you able to characterize in any way for us what that dash cam video shows? >> well, it shows that she stopped. it shows that there is the officer that goes out and makes contact with her and initially after getting the license and goes back to his car and writes her up it seems -- or at least he alleges that he wrote her a warning, and then after asking her to get out of her car because he was, from my perspective, irritated with the manner in which she was addressing him, he then opened her door and was looking to force her out. so, again, the real question is why is it that he thought it was

necessary for her to even get out of the car when all he had to do was give her the citation he was going to give her, which was effectively a warning, and send her on her way? >> thank you. i appreciate you joining us this morning. >> thank you. >> thank you. before we go to our break, i do want to bring in my panel for a moment. based on what you've heard here what do we think has happened to sandy brown? >> well you know when you get stopped by the police for a traffic stop you expect that what will happen is you will get a ticket and be on your way. and here we just heard the characterization of that video as you know maybe this was a police officer who thought she was being mouthy that she was

the angry black woman, right? so here we have a black woman who is being dehumanized and treated criminally for just a traffic stop. we should not be surprised, but we should say enough. >> and it's the way black people seem to be put in their place over and over again by law enforcement, the fact we don't have accountability in these situations, and that law enforcement over and over can do these types of things without any type of retribution, without any accountability. >> what i found heartbreaking is the hash tag that popped up. sandra looks like someone who could be an organizer with me. >> her profile picture was just a blank sheet that said now legalize being black in america. so she is engaged spiritually with the black lives matter movement. she's engaged with it.

>> she's talking often in social media about tools of change and she would want us to say her name. black folks in america say if i die in police custody, and it's both powerful and heartbreaking for me to watch. it reaffirms no matter what your status, gender, where you went to school you could be the next hash tag. >> something about her moving back to the town where she was an undergraduate and beginning work at her alma mater -- i'm sorry i called her sandy brown a moment ago, i think mushing her and michael brown together in my mind, in part because there is something appalling about the idea that you get stopped for a traffic violation, we expect that to happen. we don't always follow all the rules. we don't expect them to open the door and pull us out. >> when you get stopped by the police, you have to question

why are you stopping me and what are you going to do with me once you stop me? >> you shouldn't get pulled out of a car for mouthing off to a cop. you shouldn't. especially for that. and i think there is few phrases in the english language that are less convincing than "hung herself in her jail cell." until we see a video or something from that jail cell we have a long history where i grew up. ron sellers hung himself in his jail cell in the 1980s. he did no such thing. >> and if you look at black women dying in jail cells, they are stunningly long. and if you look at suicides they are vanishingly small. she would be one of the only humans this has happened to compared to the numbers we look at when we look at people of color in police custody who end up harmed or dead.

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waller county texas outside of houston is a rural place with just over 47,000 people spread out over 500 square miles. it's fairly diverse. 44% of the population, 30% latino or hispanic and 26% black. this is where sandra bland died earlier this week in the county jail. she was arrested in prairie view a small college townhome to prairie view a&m, with mostly black students. despite adversity, there has often been opposition between

blacks and whites. she was about to start a new job. she marched for voting rights for college students. they said the students were ineligible to vote using their campus addresses and vowing to arrest them if they tried. the state of texas reaffirmed the students' right to vote. in 2008 more than a thousand prairie view students marched seven miles to protest the lack of voting places closer to campus in the march primary. and it was only in 2012 after years of fighting that students were able to secure a polling place on campus for the first time. joining me now from houston, texas is carmen rowe legal analyst. carmen, can you tell me a little bit about waller county's reputation? >> yeah. waller county has a longstanding history of racial

discrimination, and you mentioned some of the history there. the best thing i can say about the community is that there is an exclusively black cemetary and an exclusively white cemetary that still exists in waller county today. >> so the dead are segregated? >> absolutely. as much as the living. >> and it's my understanding, in fact, that even around that cemetary thing, not to push too much, but there was actually some concern about the fact that the african-american cemetary was not being kept up despite the fact everybody's tax dollars was going into it. >> that's exactly right, and there was even a litigation that had to occur because there was a white individual that attempted to be placed in the black cemetary, and they actually had to have a lawsuit because they didn't want to have any mix in the cemetaries. >> let me ask you a little bit -- obviously there are lots of questions in the cases. we will find out more detail but we just heard from the family's attorney that the dash cam video shows she was pulled

out of the car. we were just talking here at the table, is saying she was argumentative or maybe she wasn't differential enough is that a legal enough reason to pull a citizen out of the car or to arrest them? >> not at all. being mouthy to a police officer, argumentative or even disrespectful is not a criminal offense and it's not a justification to pull somebody out of their car. this was nothing more than a traffic stop and it should have ended with a citation and letting sandra go. there was no reason to pull her out of the vehicle at that time. >> i just wanted to point out that the local station there, kahu, said the jail was cited for violations for minimum jail teaching and they were observed

seeing her suicidal but saying these conditions couldn't be related to sandra bland's death. even if she committed suicide, if she committed suicide in their custody in the context of it not meeting their standards, are they culpable for it? >> i think that's absolutely the case. at the end of the day, we know right now that officials have said policies and procedures were not followed at the stop and they weren't followed at the jail. what we know is this was a preventable death and while she was in their custody at the stop as well as in the jail they had an obligation to ensure her safety by following those policies and procedures to make sure every individual that comes in gets to leave. >> thank you very much from houston accident houston, texas. i appreciate having a little more background. does that give any more insight to what happened here?

>> i grew up in north carolina. i went to school in greensboro north carolina and there was a history of police misconduct. it doesn't happen in a vacuum because there is a cultural system in place and it allows for these things to happen. it allows for disen disenfranchisement. >> i want to pause and let people know that story, that this man who was a sheriff, it was an elected position but when he was the chief, he was fired in 2008 around allegations around racism and brutality. he claims it's just politics but it is worth pointing out that a person who was fired from that job has been elected into another law enforcement position. >> when we say black lives matter it's important to know it was not just police violence

but any racist acts. >> you gave almost a spit take on the state of texas said this. actually, the state of texas in the last five years or so is one of the leading states in criminal justice reform. already we've seen the officer in this case come out and discipline them. we don't discipline officers until, like three years later, and they've already said there's been misconduct in this. on the state level, i think there's been important work and hopefully that work will now affect this case. >> what i want to connect, though, is exactly your point. i think that's right. i think there is some credit that can be given to texas around these issues. part of what i would say in the state of texas is the voting piece. when the state of texas tells

you that you have been voter suppressant, you are voter suppressant. this is a criminal justice piece but not exclusively that right? to look at for years and years students marching to be able to cast their vote and potentially a new staff member on their campus dying in police custody, these things are not entirely disconnected from one another. we have more. still to come, black protesters carry on martin o'malley and my letter of the week.

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officer placed him in a chokehold for sale of cigarettes. he said i can't breathe. the fact that grand juries decided not to indict the officers involved people saw it as police brutality and sparked a movement under the banner black lives matter. the movement has changed politics and american activism though some criticize it for not paying attention when black women die at the hands of police while in police custody, women like sandra bland. you started by talking about this idea of what police officers see when they see a black woman driving. i think they have the sense of a vulnerability of black male bodies, but maybe less of black women. >> as we know even from school age and school to prison pipeline work the way young

girls all the way through women are viewed are often perceived as unruly as wild. when we get older i know i've had it calling me the angry black woman, so these perceptions, then when they're turned into actions leads to unfortunate circumstances. and so -- and too often we forget because we think that the numbers of black women who are killed by police are lower because we disregard it. >> right. >> really what's happening is black women are dehumanized in the same ways and sometimes sexualized on top of that and we forget that story. >> that question then of how we -- even as we are insisting that black lives matter think about the different ways and different formulations of black life, would an older black life would a younger black life they are seen as distinct and yet still create vulnerabilities?

>> absolutely and getting folks to understand moving the conversation around black folks, around queer folks, around tran folks to the front of the conversation so it's not sort of a backdrop to these moments we hear about trayvon or eric garner garner but that we are that you canning about the full range of impact on our community. the sandra bland story and the attention it's getting, i hope is a real signal for us to begin elevating these moments. when we get policy change when we win policy change the policy change has to be big enough and strong enough to ensure that all of us are protected, that our full community is protected, and that's just different aspects of the community. >> i guess one of the things i continue to wonder is whether or not this vulnerability to state violence can also open up you know look i am not about to do a martin o'malley black lives, white lives, everybody's lives matter, but the vulnerability --

the vulnerability of black lives to state power should provide an anxiety for all of us about -- i mean, part of why i want to talk to an attorney about can someone just take you out of your car because you're mouthing off, in most circumstances that's going to be read from black bodies differently. but in any given moment it means vulnerability for all people, if that makes sense. >> here's a way of thinking about it. i edited a magazine that's been against the drug war as long as' i've been alive. we always look for arguments on getting people to change their mind. for a long time one of the arguments that worked is there is a racially disproportionate impact on arrests compared to what people do. black people smoke pot the same

right as white people, yet they are arrested shook down and it's actually an effective way to get the attention of people who think to themselves, oh maybe this is sort of part of a system that is more racist or has disproportionate effects. so it can be effective. i would also suggest, just to get everybody mad at me here black lives matter is great as a kind of testimony of individual worth in the face of a system that for too long has not valued those people and the media hasn't covered this. they're doing it now because there's video and facebook and twitter, and people can root around that but as an organizing tool for changing criminal justice policy i'm not sure it is as effective. you're going to take some fence sitters on this and say, look i want to change the system but you'll call me a racist. >> what they will say is we have a set of laws on the books that are not enforced fairly. the laws of marijuana are not

enforced fairly. so just to get a new set of laws or this current movement we have on loosening up drug laws around the country, will it actually help black folks if we don't build power? the laws on the books currently do not. black folks do not have to take the power in this system to hold law enforcement, to hold prosecutors to actually follow the law. so a whole new set of laws if people aren't actually valued and don't have political power, will not be seen fairly. understanding atticus is my first letter of the week. push your enterprise and you can move the world. but to get from the old way to the new you'll need the right it infrastructure. from a partner who knows how to make your enterprise more agile, borderless and secure.

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already shaking the way we understand it. assumptions like hillary clinton will be the democratic nominee. or the gop primary field is wide open and unpredictable. or, donald trump is the most outrageous republican running for president. after all, trump has dominated attention with both outrage and frustrated anyone else trying to get a shine on the republican stage these days. just yesterday he was at it again taking on former prisoner of war john mccain. he had this to say at a summit in ames iowa. >> he's not a war hero. he's a war hero because he was captured. i like people who weren't captured, okay? >> with juicy madness like that available at every turn, it isn't surprising that the media can't help but keep the cameras trained on trump. but here we are not buying the conventional wisdom and we are not conceding that trump is the most outrageous candidate

seeking to outvote the republicans next fall. that's why my vote is going to scott walker. dear scott walker, it's me melissa. just dropping a little note to say we see you. i'm not talking about the fact we saw you on monday when you went to wisconsin and talked about your candidacy. we see and hear your particular form of outrageousness despite all the fury surrounding your opponent, mr. trump. we saw you when you made your first post-campaign-announcing trip not to iowa but to las vegas where your campaigner resides. we heard your unanimous choice of the boy scout committee to drop the ban on openly gay scout leaders. your reason?

because the previous one did not honor scout values. after you thought children needed protection from gay men, you tried to say you meant that the policy for kids needed debate. but we're not buying that particular backpedal given you support a constitutional amendment to allow states to define marriages between a man and a woman even though the supreme court has quickly acknowledged acknowledged. we also know you shifted on abortion including a felony offense for doctors to perform abortions past a certain stage with no exemptions for rape or incest. we heard you when you claimed to be a fighter and cited your extreme decision to all but end collective bargaining for

employee unions a move the sentinel said went far beyond what was necessary. what the people want is someone who fights for the people, not someone who fights the people! so yes, governor walker, for the moment mr. trump is providing a largely largely imp erks nrksenetrable smokescreen. even in the donald haze we can see you. no matter what the conventional haze it may be you that is the most outrageous candidate in the race. sincerely, melissa. ♪ ♪ (vo) making the most out of every mile. that's why i got a subaru impreza.

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reviews. there's been a controversy over the book for years, whether or not lee wanted it publicshed or whether there should be a sequel. atticus finch in the first book fights to free a black man accused of rape. in the 1962 film adaptation of the novel, ahead. >> we get that with all kind of folks. you never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view. >> sir? >> to climb inside of his skin and walk around. >> in the new book said about 20 years after mockingbird, scout returned home to discover her father who is not who he thought she was. he's racist.

alex is pro gdp and he's telling her the negros are here not counting as people. what do you think of the new book? >> you know i actually liked the new book. i think it's very realistic. i think it is a lesson atof atticus has somebody who has beb deeply deeply. it is a time in which we need it. >> when i read it i felt the same way. the first text is harper lee's

editor after reading this to go and retell this story in a different way. is that how you read it? >> it doesn't really feel like a first novel or first draft. i think it could have been what we are seeing. the skeleton of the first draft might have been there. we see some passages that really reproduce verbatim in "to kill a mockingbird." it must have been a draft at some point, but she must have gone back to it and done significant revisions. there are just so many places where there is a clear assumption that we've already read this book. >> pop out of the book for me into the real world. people were having all the feelings about the fictional white hero or whether he actually is or not. really? in the midst of black lives matter we are all stressed out whether atticus firchl might

actually have been. use the. i think the movie version is probably who they respond to. he's anal truistic person and you did not condition them anyway. maybe they were the president bring back in and they're having a really difficult time accepting that he is probably the white man. >> i watch it because it goes back to atticus. everybody reads atticus because it still resolved itself in the end with the death of tom. i don't want to imply that death doesn't end. the guards call him to stop

they fire a few shots in the air, then to kill. they got him just as he got over the fence. they're talking about tom trying to escape. they said if he had two good arms he would have made it in. i want you to come with me to go tell helen and they go to tell his wife. i'm sorry. even harper lee couldn't imagine any other ending than ultimately -- >> the black man gets killed. >> and in response to this we were going to win on appeal and if only he had not been so childlike and had to run away. excuse me yes, all of that is there in the text. there is a possibility of like a racial paternalism. >> of course it's paternalistic. atticus finch was a great character for the time. we needed to have someone that everyone especially on the white side of the aisle, could aspire to. you needed to create a nobility

that somebody could wrap themselves around at the time. how many sylcivil rights movies have we watched that somehow the hero was a white dude? >> all of them. >> it was ridiculous in 1988 when "mississippi burning" was made. the director said he couldn't have made it otherwise at the time. i think now we live in a time where that's not necessary anymore, but in the fullness of humanity people were flawed. >> and wouldn't we prefer that you can nonetheless be a powerful part of justice despite your imperfection? >> this happens in civil rights too. jackie robinson these people

were flawed people. >> but that's not how people want to see atticus. >> we love him and that's why people are angry. it's like you tarnished our good white man, our good white hero. >> but i think this is more a nol in our own time -- he -- believe in an ideal form of justice. in time that can go hand in hand with a belief in segregation or equality. it's that combination, i think, that makes him appealing and human to me. >>. coming up next the latest revelations about bill cosby.

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>> it matters here in north carolina and the south because this was the place where there was so. it was actually passed really

quick through the legislature, and the answer is no it would not have passed muster it would not have been the law of the lands in south carolina. >> voting matters and the vote matters because those -- >> it matters because nothing can change without it. >> why was it important to have kids apart from therefore. >> i'm looking around at the not people of color. mostly white sheer. is that surprising to you? >> no i think definitely with increase in media that people are mora wear now of thee aware now

of the issues and they want to support people of color. >> we're living in a time where i never thought i would have to worry about these things these battles were fought for me. we need tholdo hold onto each other. my mother was a mother in the 'child in the '60s and they persevered through it and i think it strengthens my generation. >> i am inspired and i am just so thankful that we have some young people who are willing to pick up the banner and keep moving. >> we mobilized white skpand. when you say that this is our

selma, what does that mean? >> this is our selma because we are fighting to hold onto what we thought was secure 50 years ago. it's also our selma because we have to fight now the same way we did then. >> and it's that point right there, that 50 years later, rather than moving further along that arc, we struggle to gain the victories we've already won. civil rights organization and shawn robinson director of color of change america's longest longest. so racial justice is to hot right noul. on the one hand it was really

exciting, watching the city come alive in this particular way, but it's not something that's like our next step in the movement, it's this thing we did 50 years ago. >> this is our selma. north carolina is our selma because there are folks who want to take us backwards. and it's much more subtle but it is the same kind of mechanisms of trying to make sure that black folks don't have a voice in the election system. and so you know we're fighting this and we are present with the naacp, but the north carolina legislature knew what the impact of this law would be on black voters, and they know that black voters are important. this law could be the blueprint of this country. with the demographics, there are

people making sure others don't participate. >> we were talking with your colleague, and this is about a section ii case. you're bringing this under section ii and i just want folks to think they didn't miss all the various sections of the vra. vra still exists section 2 was still still enforced that once that wasn't way. >> exactly and this law passed right after the supreme court's decision and what the north carolina legislature did, they kind of waited as many states waited to see what was going to happen and then they knew they could pass restrictive legislation and not have to send it to the department of justice. that meant they could just i am reply meant it and we would to

the system. they say, wait a minute i thought we had voting rights. what are we doing marching for the right to vote? people already had this right to vote. i wonder if this is actually skepticism or much ado the fight for mashl justice that we need to carry on, we can't get off the offensive, and that power doesn't give up without a real fight. so as soon as a movement succeeds the next generation does not experience the worst of the abuses that the previous generations did, and they tend to forget that there's more to fight for or that we might even have to defend these particular victories for decades to come. >> i feel like you saying the

next generation doesn't inherit the wins of the previous generation probably just made david burkes. but it even sort of made me a little sad. >> does it mean passing it to your children? >> i think it does mean pass tg to your children but the children are going to see it intact and have to defend it. we can't get complacent about these things. it's going to come. i know it's depressing. it's hard to keep fighting the same things over and over again, but we can't actually move on into the new stuff we need to work on without having good defense of the old stuff we won before. >> so i wonder in passing along

these troubles, we needed to pass some protest. there was legal action but there was teachings instead of teaching all day. people sitting there in a room leading thingds, but that kind of three-pronged arkz. >> i think -- how we're attacked is going to be in three different ways. once the voting rights pass then you start -- sort of getting out the vote. then you have things like citizens united. the financial architect behind what's happening in north carolina to be able to use his money sort of in many different

ways. we had to use it decade ago to reshape the legislature, to ensure these laws get passed. in terms of our responsibility to fight and the strategies we need to employ we need to be thinking about how do we push these things legally but how do we hold business folks and others as well? >> there's one voting rights thing that gets underplayed and states liblg florida who prohibit voting. it exploits our minorities to a criminal degree. this past week we saw barack obama at a prison we saw bill clinton apologize for his role in the war on crime. we saw john boehner saying my role in criminal justice.

this is all. . it part of that package that will be galvanized. >> that broke off at that yesterday, and there were democrats that had good answers and others that had better answers. what happened when martin o'malley came face to face with the black rights movement is next. ♪ am i the only one with a meeting? i've got two. yeah we've gotta go. i gotta say it man this is a nice set-up. too soon. just kidding. nissan sentra. j.d. power's "highest ranked compact car in initial quality." now get 0% financing or a great lease on the nissan sentra. ♪

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yesterday a meeting featuring martin o'malley and bernie sanders was interrupted

when about 40 black protesters had questions of their own. while they watched on the stage, the protesters walked in chanting what side are you? someone was given a microphone to step up on the stage and speak. >> will you give a racial justice that will deal with this massive distrust in the united states? >> after o'malley answered let's say he didn't satisfy the protesters in the audience. he left the stage to a chorus of boos after he said this. >> every life matters, and that is why this issue is so important. black lives matter white lives matter, all lives matter. black lives matter. white lives matter. all lives matter.

>> i love that he said it a second time. the protest continued until martin o'malley entered the stage to talk about employment. we had martin o'malley's interview after the disruption. >> you were booed today after you said white lives matter. what was your response to -- >> what i said first was black lives matter and then i said white lives matter all lives matter. i meant nothing by that and i apologize if that's what i communicated. that was a mistake. what i intended to say was we're all in this together that black lives do matter and that we have a double standard of justice in this country. >> oh mr. o'malley just real quick, i think maybe you want to hear the answer that mr. sanders gave, because that was maybe not at the right answer. let's listen to bernie sanders. >> black people are dying in this country because we have a criminal justice system which is out of control, because we have

a system in which, as i just mentioned, over 50% of young african-american kids are unemployed, are out in the streets, and where we have right now it is estimated that a black male baby born today stands a 1 in 4 chance ending up in the criminal justice system. >> okay. hello, democratic party running for presidency when as you point out, after american votes are going to be critical often decisive. responses? >> yes, please. >> so all politicians, whether they are -- maybe just the white ones matter i don't know. all politicians, including democratic politicians, politicians who are thought to be progressive, they need to

understand that this generic language of the "all," if we all do better we'll all do better. that is not going to cut it here. we're in a moment where communities of color are organizing where they want their issues spoken to very specifically. this kind of tone deafness like we don't really have to pay attention, we can say white lives matter we can say all lives matter and it's going to be okay. that's not going to fly. i think martin o'malley really discovered this yesterday and so did bernie sanders. i actually in the earlier segment, i heard you talk about how --asserting that black lives matter might decrease some support from white folks for criminal justice reform because now you're calling me a racist. it evokes that. so one of the things that politicians have to be able to do is assert that -- it's the impact of the decisions that we make that's most important, and

that they have to be assert a definition of racism and oefrlt that there are things we do collectively and individually with all good intention, maybe, even, but that still have terrible racial impacts that cause terrible racial harm and it's like a muscle to talk about these things and if you don't practice it, the muscle is going to die out. >> i feel like you just did the work of exposing the thing we were trying to do across the context of the arc of the show so far, which is really to talk about here you have black bodies in the case of sandra bland, actually a dead young woman in a jail cell. then you have people having all the feeling about a fictional white male hero right, and this idea about where does racism live? because the point isn't really about whether atticus is racist it's about whether this place, this space, this time this

nation, we as reedersaders are racist that we can see if a character like atticus is even racist, and then creating this movement that is trying to engage, as we have heard there from our protesters, saying look we need to dismantle it not just us challenge it. here's my letter of the week. can i do one? >> yes. >> dear democratic party. you, too, have a serious problem. sincerely sincerely. it doesn't mean that you get under the circumstances, it doesn't mean that you speak to us it doesn't mean to really get at what black responses need answers to our issues. we have specific issues that have to have specific detailed responses. and if you can't do it then don't touch this.

i'm venturing to say that just about every one of these candidates' forums are going to be #shutitdown. >> we're going to shut down for the commercial but then we're coming back to get you riled up. . more when we come back. ousy. she's still there. new beginnings. goodbye. and sheer exhilaration. and sheer exhilaration. lock and load. roger. it's the event you don't want to miss. it's the summer of audi sales event. get up to $3000 bonus on select audi models now during the summer of audi sales event. ♪ i built my business with passion. but i keep it growing by making every dollar count. that's why i have the spark cash card from capital one. i earn unlimited 2% cash back on

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and in my castle we only eat chex cereal. chex cereal. it's full of delicious crunchability. no artificial flavors, and it's gluten-free. and that's something even my brother ... sister can understand. mom, brian threw a ball in the house! the issue of racial justice is becoming one of the key contenders to the presidency. from everything to key quality equality activists have called for structural equality prompting parties from both sides to respond. >> we have the responsibility to say clearly and directly what's really going on in our country. because what is happening is a sweeping effort to disempower

and disenfranchise people of color for people and young people from one end of the country to another. >> we decide to lock people up for 5, 10 15 years for making mistakes. it's a huge mistakes to be locking people up. >> we cannot dismiss the historical less agency of slavery nor its role in causing the problem of black poverty. and because slafvery and segregation were sanctioned by government, there is a role for government policy in addressing their lasting effects. >> that was a lot from rick perry. but president obama reminded us in his eulogy for senator clementa pinckney they have to

follow up with action. >> it is not just in the laws of segregation but the life and community in which our congregation resides. >> so here we are in a moment when the person who i liked best was rick no relation perry, right? and that's kind of stunning. so i don't know whether to way to think about that is now racial justice has become such a tool that it's not meaningful to hear candidates talk about it, or in the way you've been pushing, the right may have some legitimate basis to say we're at least in this game as much as the democratic party. >> there are some rick perry among them rand paul among them who i think they have gotten to this question the broader question of kind of racial justice through the door of criminal justice reform and it's changed them. rand paul says this in his

latest book. he first gave a speech at howard in which he was sort of telling everybody the history of civil rights, and he writes in his book i messed up i should have listened. he spent the next two years listening and put forth half a dozen pretty good justice reform bills. he's come to the conclusion that there is no way you can look at how things have disproportionately affected minority communities. there is no way to look at how people react to and feel the latest outrage and not see race in it. >> no no no. on june 9 -- that's not quite what you said. rand paul on june 9 is talking about criminal justice but is actually sort of unwilling to claim that it is racism. do we have that sound? we don't have that sound yet but it's coming in a few seconds. it's a real thing to say i recognize this but i'm not quite there to say that it's racist. >> i listen to him a lot. i feel he probably said

something like i don't know if this action was a racist action. i do know that the broader questions of how this happened have a complete racial element to it. >> let's listen to it real quick. >> the arrests in baltimore 15-1, black to white for marijuana arrests. if you do surveys, it's pretty close torefor black and whites. it's not racism. >> he's saying racism is boiled down to something that happens among people and it's not structural, it's not based on our laws. unless our political leaders are willing to address that we won't get to the heart of the problem. over and over again the republican -- i mean the democratic party treats black folks like we are sort of like their backup their side chick

at the end of the day, and they can come to us. come into our communities and branls. they don't address black folks' issues. >> let me say addressing issues is not just symbolic it has to be substantive. the flag came down and it actually felt like a good and important thing. but i want to play reverend barber. he said something sort of chilling to me on monday. >> there is a dangerous narrative coming out of charleston to me and that narrative to me is only black death matters. and if nine black lives, what you get with that is the lowering of the flag. reverend pinckney's district was protected by the boarding rights

act. his district he was serving when he died is now unprotected. this is our selma. >> the flag was important, right? but the issues that kind. we have black lives changing demographics. that's what we have to continue on work on. that's the harder work and that's the stuff i want to hear all these candidates talking about on the structures. >> matt welch, shawn robinson thank you. we want to make sure everyone knows tomorrow morning senator john mccain will be on "morning joe." this will be the first interview for senator mccain since senator

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think about the most challenging, painful and difficult experience of your life. can you tap into the memories of trauma, of fear of loss? maybe even of shame and self-blame. now go a little further and think of how you might feel just as you see the storm clouds break and the light at the end of the tunnel appear and you begin to believe, now i can take a breath. i think it's going to be okay. imagine right at that fragile moment, your boss, who happens to be a multi-millionaire, a vast influence, publicly blames your personal trauma for his regressive and greedy decision that will negatively impact thousands of your co-workers.

because this is what happened last year when aol's tim armstrong justified his decision to slash employee retirement packages by saying on a companywide conference call quote, we had two aol-ers that had distressed babies that were born that we paid a million dollars each to make sure those babies were okay in general. so when we had the final decision about what benefits to cut because of the increased health care costs, we had the decision, and i made the decision, to changely changebasically change the 401(k) plan. what followed was a firestorm, with mean tweets. it was the joke for the next week. but for people who worked for armstrong at that time, this story was not a joke. it was an invasive and human spectacle surrounding their daughter nela.

one pound and nine ounces unable to breathe on her own with skin barely able to hold itself together. today with doctors, nurses expert care and her own breathtaking will to live she's a thriving toddler. she's a person not a million-dollar burden. following the backlash armstrong apologized both to deanne peter and to the public. this brought a personal struggle to her colleagues and the world, so deanne decided she wasn't going to let armstrong tell her family's story she would tell it herself in a new book entitled "girl in glass." those parents join me next. the signs are everywhere. the lincoln summer invitation is on. get exceptional offers on the luxury small utility mkc mkz sedan... ...the iconic navigator.

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in the hospital after her pregnancy, they thought they were out of the woods. then they had the battle of a lifetime when ceo tim armstrong skirted their availability of benefits, thrusting the family in the spotlight. deanna took to the internet putting a face to the so-called distressed baby name and she continues the family's name? "girl in glass," how my distressed baby beat the odds. joining me now are author deanna fei and peter goodman, editor and chief of the "times." deanna, it is intense and in some ways three books in one what you're up to here but one of the things i found most powerful was pushing back against the idea of miracle. miracle is in the title, but you

push against it. can we talk a little bit about that? >> the first day my daughter was born and we were told she faced these incredibly terrifying odds, one-third chance of dying before we even brought her home one-third chance of facing disabilities, at the same time on the other side we were told things like, well she'll be a miracle. you have a miracle child. i felt from the gikbeginning to protect her from this notion she had to be a miracle child in order to justify her existence. i felt i needed to see her for who she is no matter what her life turned out to be and that was my job as her mother. she deserved for me to see the light in her hands, to hold her hand and just be a person. which is what she was as soon as she was born. >> that struggle though is not without cost it's not without moving forward and back. it's not like there's one moment of revelation and after that

it's all clear. and peter, you have written something about this as well. part of the story is that at the time nela was born, you had a 13-year-old son who was doing great, and it had been an uncomplicated pregnancy and delivery and all of that and you two individually and collectively struggling to find out what does life look like if it's not a life like this one? >> i think that's one of the most powerful things in deanna's book. this is something she certainly taught me. part of the things he were struggling was, one of them was this is a sense of how it's not supposed to go. you're in a better place to talk about that but i will say our 13-month-old son just saved us because he took us out of all that and reminded us there was more than this vigil we were keeping inside the neonatal intensive care unit. >> the book like i said is

three sort of books. at the end in that third part you do get to the politics of it you do get to the idea that at the moment you're finally beginning to see a light, nela has come home you're starting nursing. having a child born to seizureurrogace and then nursing and the feeling a mother has about similac, your privacy gets outed. i know an awful lot about you all now, having read this text. how do you make the choice to go further public after being exposed this this way rather than just pulling back? >> i definitely had an instinct to cower in shame when all of this happened. and part of that was my own sense of being a failure somehow and having not kept my own baby safe. i literally failed to hold onto

her. i think a lot of women shame themselves when a pregnancy goes wrong. i think that's reflected in society. we tend to preach that a woman can do everything right to have a perfect, healthy baby. that's probably what i myself believed when my first child was born. >> look how good i am. >> right, and that easily becomes a culture of blame when a baby needs medical attention at the moment of birth, and i think that was certainly implistic. the fact that he was zeroed in on mothers and children on the corporate balance sheets. >> you were the employee and i wonder in whatever shame or guilt you felt around what felt like a failed pregnancy at that moment given that it was your employer that was revealing your family, harming them in this way, what that then meant for you. >> i was enraged.

i was just really furious. i mean as you noted in your opening statement, we were just getting to the point where we were feeling like -- with an extremely premature infant you never know what's coming down the pike and that's how you feel as a parent in general. we were feeling, okay our daughter is now a kid in the world, and we're living our lives, and we're the parents of two babies and that's what we're doing. suddenly we're thrown into the spotlight. i mean my immediate reaction was just rage that my boss would take us back to this moment. it really wasn't until deanna started writing and thinking that it became clear to me that she had been carrying around all this time this feeling of personal failure which is deeply unfair. and for a now ceo of a publicly traded company, someone who made $12 million -- never mind the politics of individual employee

benefits versus ceo pay in an age of inequality, it was actually to throw my family under the bus and make my wife have to go back examineand think about all this again it was enraging. >> what became very clear to me after i came forward was that my family is fortunate. our daughter is thriving. her care was covered by employee insurance. i'm grateful for that but many people are not as fortunate and i was waking up to outpouring of messages from strangers around the country saying i've also been shunned in the workplace for needing medical care. many of those people were women and parents who were targeted for their children's medical bills. and it became clear to me that this culture of deciding that certain people are brooding in society is something that needs to be examined. it's not just about me and tim armstrong, it's not about

babies. i think we're demeaning society when we put price tags on children this way. >> everybody must heed it the idea that what is human worth and how that land nd thised in this moment. i'll also say as a parent at 3:00 in the morning, i couldn't put it down. i just curled up around my daughter. once you have a child that's vulnerable to the world, it's like a little part of yourself is out there. i'm so appreciative of this text. thank you, deanna fei and peter goodman. up next, using controversy as a backlash to victory.

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we begin this hour by talking about the quest for racial justice understanding. that conversation becomes even more complicated in the wake of a tragedy that involved the member of a group that was often targeted for profiling. police say a muslim-american mohammad youssuf abdulazeez opened fire at two military

centers killing four marines and a sailor. the family of the shooter has expressed condolences to the victims of the families. the shooting has once again sparked a backlash against muslims. almost 14 years after 9/11 muslim bigotry remains in america. 73% of americans believe muslims face a great deal or a fair amount of discrimination. this week, people are are challenging negative stereotypes. here to talk about it a host of an xm show and yeahheed who is comedian and co-producer of the muslim funny -- sorry, i totally destroyed it. >> that's fine. >> that's okay. >> it's a tough week. we had already sat down decided we were going to have this

conversation. and then dean here we're in a situation where we have a shooter who is muslim and therefore, in some ways from a predictable backlash. >> first of all, our thoughts and prayers are with the families. the five service men who were killed in this and down in chattanooga, tennessee, they had an interfaith event. i spoke to the leaders of a mosque down there on friday. all faiths standing together as americans. the struggle is that we will do a festival. you have great young muslims raising money in the south for the black church. $100,000 to rebuild churches. that gets overshadowed by this shooting. this defines us much more than all the good work we're doing. just like every other minority group, we don't want to be defined by the worst in our community. unfortunately that's where we stand. the comedy festival is to define who we are through comedy. >> this is the kind of the

constant work in the circumstance of being dehumanized is to put back humanity, to show humor, and joy. again, in the tragedy of the shooting to be able to say, look, people celebrate and they mourn and they're all of these different things. >> as much as i don't want to be associated with someone who committed such a horrific horrific action i am. and there's no way i can avoid that. it's funny, because also as a person with a disability the mental health community is often under fire. so normally i would like to throw it on that. but i can't. and what we're trying to do is say, i understand that you hold me responsible for the actions of 1.6 billion people who share my faith. but i want to show you who i am as a jersey girl as a muslim woman who's onstage doing comedy. and dean often says people say they don't know any muslims. i think they even know less muslim women. i want to go out there, and at

the same time the comedians are all professionals. we're not just muslims trying to be funny. it is diversity within our community, from race to devoutness to all different -- you're going to hear a bunch of different stories if you come out. i'd love to get a chance to show the other side. >> i love just to throw in jersey girl because all of us there's always these frames that we have for understanding what any title or any identity is. so you think, oh yeah i'm a jersey girl. >> i do a joke onstage about how there's live angry americans who tweet me and say go back to your country. my country is jersey. they understand that we're different, but we are americans. >> that's a great one. seriously, though, dean like at this point, don't you feel 14 years after 9/11 are we going to move to a place -- of course i mean obviously each and every act is then meant to be representative of the whole

community. >> it is a struggle. i try to put things in perspective for people. since 9/11 there's been 40 americans killed by islam related terrorists. two weeks ago it was reported double the americans have been killed in that same time by anti-government terrorists, by right-wing terrorists. so we live in a world where we -- it's a threat that's really small. you have a greater chance of being killed by your refrigerator. i'm not making that up. it's an actual statistic. we have gun violence taking 30 lives every day. we don't seem to be as outraged when a muslim does something like this. don't arebe -- muslims are under arrest, the three types of muslims we see. >> but does your refrigerator hate freedom. >> thank you to dean and maysoon. that's our show for today. it's time for alex witt. >> dramatic and scary moments from a surfer as he is struck by

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