tennessee. the fbi reviewing a text message the chattanooga gunman sent to an friend just before the rampage. the nightmare question now -- are lone wolf attacks america's new normal? also the iran nuclear deal. >> i believe it poses a great deal to america and the world. >> we have all sides of the debate covered with british prime minister david cameron, secretary of state john kerry and a key republican critic, arkansas senator tom cotton. and the trump factor. republicans pile on after trump says this about john mccain. >> he's not a war hero. >> he is a war hero. >> he's a war hero because he's

captured. i like people who weren't captured. >> is this the moment republicans decide enough is enough with trump? >> i'm chuck todd. joining us thomas friedman of the "new york times." nbc's andrea mitchell finally back from vienna. danielle pletka and bill richardson. welcome to sunday. it's "meet the press." >> announcer: from nbc news in washington, this is "meet the press." with chuck todd. good morning. new developments into the investigation into the mass shooting in chattanooga that killed five u.s. servicemen on thursday. those victims, lance corporal skip wells, gunnery sergeant thomas sullivan, staff sergeant david wyatt,er is. gent carson holmquist, investigators are now focusing on a text message that mohammad

youssuf abdulazeez sent just hours before to a send saying this. whosoever shows enmity to to mine then i have declared war against him. his family offered a statement offering condolences to the victims and stating their son suffered from depression for many years. for the latest on the investigation i'm joined from nashville by the governor of tennessee, governor bill haslam. good morning to you. >> good morning. >> what more can you tell us about the investigation that we don't know any new developments on your end, sir? >> you know, the fbi has been incredible, i think, in terms of being willing to chase down every lead, working with state law enforcement and local folks to try to ascertain is this somebody that was just totally operating on their own, was there someone else pulling their strings, just what caused this person to get to the point where he did what he did. i have a lot of faith they're going to drill down on exactly

on what happened. like i said, so far, i've been really impressed with their ability to go to every end to see where that will take them. >> here we are 72 hours in and we don't have breadcrumbs that lead to us a conclusion that many people have already come to, that this was a terrorist attack. what's been the struggle here? >> i think one of the scary things for all americans is the chance -- very good chance this is just a lone wolf out there operating on his own where we had no predictors of what he would do. it makes it really hard, obviously, to think, how do we protect ourselves against that in the future. i think that's one of the fears all of us has, is that he might be motivated by someone, someone might be pulling his strings but when he's operating by himself, it's a little harder to ascertain exactly what we do about that. >> many of your fellow governors have decided to figure out ways to increase security at

recruitment centers particularly for the national guard where government agents are there. what are you thinking about doing as far as tennessee is concerned? >> we'll have a directive that asks our general to review safety at all of our facilities, not just armory, the store front recruiting units. we have those like the one that was attacked on thursday. number two reviewing where it is appropriate for our officers to be armed, to a better degree than they were in the past. both where that's appropriate and where it's legal. one of the challenges we have is that many of our armories, our facilities are federal facilities so we don't want to put our adjunct generals in an difficult position of giving them an order that they can't carry out because it is on a federal facility. we're doing a complete review to see what we can. we are concerned, obviously. we don't want to leave our folks out there as targets when we've had such a horrible event happen three days ago. >> so you may need an act of congress?

>> ultimately, that would help clear things up because on federal grounds we have limited authority as what we can do. we're going to do everything we can. at the end of the day, it would be better if we had clarity from the federal government. >> governor i know it's been tough on you, on your state. my condolences. and thank you for coming on this morning. >> thank you. chattanooga is a great city with a broken heart. we have some people that have reacted -- i think all of us mourn for four marines and a sailor and their families that have lost and are suffering today. . >> joining me michael leiter welcome back to "meet the press." i feel like we meet here monthly. that's the part of this that says, this is the new normal. what do you say? >> unfortunately, it is. we saw this in 2009 starting at ft. hood. then another shooting in arkansas very similar to this at a recruiting center. of course the attack in texas, the machete attack against the nooipd. nypd.

we see lone wolfs motivated and directed, and it's very hard to control and stop especially when you have soft targets like these in chattanooga. >> it looks like we're looking for evidence to back up a conclusion that's already reached, that this is islamic terrorism. yet we haven't found evidence yet. correct? >> that's correct. fbi is being appropriately cautious. it's 72 hours in. it is, but what's so frighten to officials, how little of a trail there was before. 72 hours later and we see nothing. that's the speed and rapidity of radicalization for this individual which is very very concerning. it makes finding the next one that much more difficult. >> but if his name weren't mohammed would we say this is a mental health situation? >> we might. the line between meant tally ill and terrorism is a thin one. in this case i think the targeting of the individuals who were in the military, at least some early indicators put it in that lane. of course, we shouldn't divide

these. often those who have mental illness are the ones most attracted to a radical ideology. >> if you were still in the administration, you have to say that every attack is preventable. now that you're not, we're at the point where we can't protect ourselves from this. >> if i were in the administration, i would be telling the president, every event isn't predictable and every event isn't preventable. when you have weapons in an open society and individuals who can in a very isolated a way become radicalized, you can't find them all. you have to minimize the damage and respond effectively to minimize the victims. >> in chattanooga, in a strip mall, anywhere america. scary. >> it is. >> michael leiter, thank you. now to the other big story dominating washington and the world this week -- the nuclear deal with iran. if you believe the prime minister of israel netanyahu netanyahu, the deal will go down

in history. on capitol hill, the deal doesn't appear to have a lot of support in congress. in iran, the deal has been welcomed. though the country's supreme leader eye toe ya khomeini did warning this weekend that his country will oppose arrogant american foreign policy. it wasn't just the united states negotiating with iran, it was the p5plus one. the world powers of russia china, france, germany and the united states. on friday i was joined by the head of one of those powers, a key advocate, british prime minister david cameron. started by asking him, why he decided to sign off on this deal. >> because i think it's so much better than the alternative. i think that if there wasn't a deal i think we would face iran with a nuclear weapon and that would have given a terrible choice to the west of either enabling that, allowing that to happen, or a very difficult decision to take military action. this is the better outcome.

it keeps iran away from a nuclear weapon. a successful negotiation for the allies and i think we should be proud of a good deal done. there are those that complain of details of the deal but fundamentally this is the toughest set of proposals put in place and verification put in place and inspection put in place that i think we've seen in any of these sorts of negotiations. i think this is a good deal. it was right to get on with it. the sanction pressure worked. i think that's all to the credit of the u.s. administration, to barack obama but also the action taken in europe, too. >> a lot of the criticism that's coming here in the united states and from some of key middle east allies of both great britain and the united states, i'm talking israel and saudi arabia in particular, is that this deal did not demand any other behavior changes in iran outside of their nuclear weapons program. it didn't demand changes in what they're doing in syria, what they're doing in yemen.

essentially, the influence that they're -- undue influence they're trying to exert in the middle east. why not include all of that? >> this deal was about the nuclear issue. the right way to conclude the deal was to make it about the nuclear issue. but we shouldn't be naive or starly-eyed in any way about the regime that we're dealing with. i'm certainly not. i spoke to president rowhani yesterday and said that we want to see a change in the approach that iran takes to issues like syria and yemen and to terrorism in the region. and we want the change in behavior that should follow from that change. so we're not starry-eyed at all. and i've re-assured our gulf allies about that. but actually taking the nuclear weapon issue off the table, that is a success for america and britain and our allies and we should be clear about that. >> there was one expert here named richard haas said his biggest concern is if iran does comply with the deal for this

reason -- he believes if iran complies with the deal then in 15 years they can have a nuclear weapon. what do you say to that? >> well, i don't believe that's right. actually, this deal says it's never acceptable for iran to have a nuclear weapon. obviously the time frame for which the safeguards are in place and the inspections in place is for a particular period of time. but the deal actually says it is not acceptable for iran to have a nuclear weapon. again, what we've done is make sure the timeline for them possibly getting a nuclear weapon has gotten longer, not shorter. >> prime minister netanyahu and many people in israel do not believe this makes them safer. everybody in the united states, on the obama administration has argued that it does. i heard you argue that it does, too. why is he wrong and you guys are right? >> well, i quite understand the concerns of people living in israel. you would if you had to deal with the terrorism of hamas and hezbollah, if you had the threats to your country and you

know what a threat iran has been to your country. i fully understand their concerns. but i would say to my friends in israel, including the israeli prime minister, look, the threat of a nuclear-armed iran, that is now off the table. and i think that's a success. >> david cameron, prime minister of great britain, thanks for coming on "meet the press," sir. >> thank you. >> a little bit more on david cameron you can see on the website. friday i sat down with secretary of state john kerry who has been making the rounds all over the place this past week in an effort to sell the iran deal to a skeptical congress and a divided american public. i asked him why the four americans believed held by iran weren't part of the deal, and why the u.s. focused only on iran's nuclear capabilities and not their overall capability. here are his responses. >> we have a plan in order to deal with pushback by iran's behavior with respect to military interdikdzctioninterdiction, stopping

the flow of weapons, dealing with counterterrorism, dealing with special forces training and capacity for some of those other countries. there will be plenty of pushback, chuck, but the simple reality is, if you're going to push back against iran,ist better to push back against an a iran that doents have a doesn't have a nuclear weapon rather than one that does. this focused on getting rid of the principle problem in the region, which is iran's threat to israel, their threat to the region, to have a nuclear capacity. we believe with this, for years into the future, we have this incredible capacity to have access, inspections, hold them accountable. by the way, even though the arms and missiles, they were thrown in as an add-on to this nuclear agreement. it was always contemplated if iran did come and deal on the nuclear program, that was going to be lifted. >> do you wish you would have held firmer to get these detainees? >> on the detainees, we raised them at every single meeting, we're still engaged in discussions with them and i hope

they'll come back to the united states soon. that's my hope. we're working continually to get them back. >> are you willing to do what have asked the administration to do which is postpone the u.n. vote on this deal until congress acts. >> we can't do that. i spoke to senator corker to tell him the agreement we made with our partners, who, by the way, don't feel they should be bound by the united states congress, they feel they've negotiated under the u.n. >> this jams congress. doesn't this jam congress? >> no. absolutely not. i'll tell you why. because we specifically to protect the congress put in a 90-day period before it takes effect. so nothing will change. the u.n. will do what it needs to do to meet the needs of our negotiating partners all of whom want it to go to the u.n. because that's what they were negotiating under. >> to see extended versions of both the interviews with prime

minister cameron and secretary of state john kerry, visitmeetthepress.nbc.com. up next one ever the strongest opponents of the iran deal joins us, senator tom cotton of arkansas. later on, donald trump says john mccain is no war hero and republican candidates finally say publicly what they've been saying privately about trump. is on. get exceptional offers on the mkz sedan... the luxury small utility mkc ...the iconic navigator. and get a first look at the entirely new 2016 mid-size utility lincoln mkx. your choice of mkc mkz gas or hybrid for $369 a month with zero due at signing. new york state is reinventing how we do business by leading the way on tax cuts. we cut the rates on personal income taxes. we enacted the lowest corporate tax rate since 1968. we eliminated the income tax on manufacturers altogether.

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welcome back. secretary of state john kerry is headed to capitol hill this week hoping to sell the iran deal to

a skeptical congress. one critic not likely to be swayed by kerry is republican senator tom cotton from arkansas. he now joins me. welcome back to "meet the press," sir. >> morning, chuck. great to be on with you. >> you heard both -- i know the david cameron interview and john kerry interview. let me start with a specific when it comes to john kerry and congress. he said there is no need to delay the u.n. vote. there's enough time built in to respect congress' role in here. do you agree? >> no, chuck, i disagree. i think it is regrettable that the. sfrags administration is going to the congress first. at bottom, united states' sanctions are most important and i'm confident the american people, as they learn more about this agreement, are repudiating it and congress will ultimately reject it. >> explain the fundamental divide. it seems on one hand you have the administration and many world powers who believe iran is a regional power in the middle

east and you have to just live with it and manage it. and there are opponents like yourself, prime minister netanyahu of israel and saudi arabia who say no, iran should not be a regional power and all this deal does is give them more power. is that the divide we're looking at here? >> that's one of the fundamental divides, chuck. iran is a terror-sponsoring, anti-american outlaw regime. they have the blood of hundreds of american soldiers and marines on their hands. we should not be empowering such a regime to be a successful regional power. we should be confronting them in every day. this deal gives them $150 billion of sanctions relief. it even lifts the conventional arms embargo and the ballistic missile ban. ultimately, even if they obey every single detail, puts them on the path to be a nuclear state in eight to ten years. if you think iran is going to change their behavior in a decade, i can tell you how unlikely that is.

they were trying to kill me and my soldiers. we were lucky. hundreds of american troops are not. >> you heard the arguments from john kerry and david cameron, which is the alternative was war. the alternative was a nuclear iran. this at least at a minimum post poens the postpones the timeline for a decade. isn't that better than nothing? >> unfortunately, chuck, as i said, even if iran obeys the deal, they'll be a nuclear weapons state in just ten years. i think we have to assume they'll cheat on the deal and the inspection and varfy cakesification fyverification and enforcement mechanisms i believe, are too weak to do so. in the end, i don't think it's a good thing to give such an outlaw regime nuclear weapons capability. but we are where we are. the question isn't what is the alternative, it is what is the alternative. i think the alternative is for congress to reject this deal and demand a better deal. send our negotiators back to the table with the threat of both tougher sanctions and military

force and get a better deal for the military people. >> before i let you go. you're a veteran. what did you make of donald trump's comments on john mccain? >> a disagree with mr. trump's comments. john mccain is a great american. everyone knows he was a p.o.w. for over five years. but what most people don't know about him -- his dad was a senior admiral at the time he was a p.o.w. so vietnamese offered him. an opportunity for early release in direct violation of the code of conduct of prisoners of war. john mcclain declined that early release and obeyed the code of conduct so we should all honor and respect john mccain's service. >> do you think this makes donald trump unfit? >> like i said, i disagree with his comments, chuck. i would recommend he apologize, retract them and get back to the campaign that at the's been running on important issues like this iran deal and the threat that it poses to the united states and world. >> tom cotton, republican from arkansas, i appreciate you coming on and sharing your views, sir. >> thanks. >> tom friedman of the "new york times," he interviewed president obama the day after the deal was

signed. andrea mitchell, who is now a resident of austria, danielle pletka, bill richardson, former democratic governor of new mexico and former ambassador to the u.n. on behalf of the united states. welcome to all of you. tom, you heard david cameron there. you interviewed the president. who did a better job selling the deal, david cameron or barack obama? >> i'm not going to get into that scorekeeping. obviously, both of them are quite emphatic about it. that's how i found the president. chuck, i would go back to the very beginning why we're in this situation. it seems to me this dates back to -- we launched a war in iraq. we failed to succeed in that war. the minute that failure was sort of locked in, we lost the military option against iran. iran understood that. the bush administration's approach was we're not going to allow you to be a nuclear state. we're neither going to go to war against you or structure a different alternative for you. when bush came into office iran

had 200 centrifuges, when they left they had 9,000. obama came in and said we're not going to let you become a nuclear state. we don't have a military option but we're going to structure a diplomatic alternative built around greater sanctions in return for the kind of deal we forged here. perfect was not on the menu. it's still not on the menu. in this region when you take military force off the table, the balance of power between the two sides becomes roughly equal. as a result, i think -- my own position right now is let's make the best of this deal. i think give it a chance. try to make it work. >> you don't think it was good? >> i don't think good was ever on the table. any deal that allows iran to continue to have these capabilities is problematic but i think it is a deal that can serve american interests provided we do two things. one is make sure the implementation is there. we can't let this be the obamacare of arms control where we do a deal and don't follow up with the proper oversight. secondly, i think the u.s.

congress should pass resolution right now authorizing the president to use force. this president or any future one, should iran seek to obtain the nuclear weapon. >> andrea, why is the military force rhetoric gone from this administration in selling this deal? cameron was rhetorically stronger than the president. >> if you listen to what the president and john kerry and all the other leaders are saying, they think diplomacy is the alternative to force. they don't want to use military force. they really don't believe in it. what the highest level of senior israeli officials are saying is that their greatest fear is that iran won't cheat. that for ten years, they will obey the rules, they'll get all the billions of dollars, they won't have the sanctions, then they will break out. they do not believe in the verification down the road because they say then their intelligence and ours are not as good as they think it is. they had a full reactor in syria until we knew it, underground activities in iran they didn't know about. they're concerned they did not

get any conditionality against terrorism by proxies throughout the region by iran. >> danielle, you're an outspoken critic of the deal. >> yes. i think i'm the only one at the table, actually. look, this is terrible in so many different ways. first of all, it front-loads all benefits to iran. we've already said, it lets them continue supporting hezbollah, hamas, supporting assad's murder of, what, up to 300,000 people who have been killed in syria with iran's help, with hezbollah's help, the iranian revolutionary guard corps. it's got very ineffective inspection mechanisms very inefficient oversight mechanisms. and the worst part about it is if iran is unhappy with anything any of us do, they can back away from the deal. it provides all incentives to accept iranian malfeasance. it's the worst constructed deal? >> why didn't we demand changes? it seems we took too many things off the table early in the negotiation.

>> i am troubled by the deal. i'm a supporter of president and his foreign policy but i wish the conventional arms embargo, we stuck with it. i think it's bad ballistic missiles, conventional arms can go to syria. to yemen. i worry about israel. i want these hostages back. reporter -- amir ramadi who is a marine was insulted by trump. he's there in iran and the fbi agent. now, i read -- i read the 109 pages. >> right there. >> there are some good on strusive instrus ive intrusive inspection regime. the snap-back provision at the u.n. that allows russia and china not to veto. that's good. but it is a 15-year agreement.

at the same time, if i were voting and a congressman, i would want to just work on the hearing, see what's going to come out. i think as a condition for improvement in the relationship there should be the release of this reporter the marine the fbi agent as a gesture that iran is entering as a community of nations. >> we're going to talk about more on this coming up after the break. up next though it's been a busy weekend. donald trump has done it, claimed john mccain is not a war hero. you heard one person come to his defense earlier in tom cotton. the man who says the comments make him unfit to be commander in chief. that's former texas governor rick perry. he'll be next. >> announcer: "meet the press" is brought to you by morgan stanley, where capital creates change. but to get from the old way to the new you'll need the right it infrastructure. from a partner who knows how to make

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so, i never liked him much after that because i don't like losers. frank, frank, let me get to it. >> he's a war hero. >> he's not a war hero. >> he's a war hero. >> he's a war hero because he was captured. i like people that weren't captured. okay? i hate to tell you. >> that was donald trump at saturday's family leadership summit in ames, iowa, talking about senator john mccain. senator mccain, by the way, was held prisoner for 5 1/2 years and tortured in north vietnam. by attacking john mccain's military service, it gave donald trump's rivals the freedom to do what they've been itching to do but afraid to do. denounce him. within 90 minutes a half dozen candidates called his comments

stupid slanderous, hateful and disqualified. three dozen weighed in as offensive, outrageous and idiotic. >> john mccain is a war hero. >> i think he's insulted everyone who's served in the military today. >> we should never, ever, ever question the patriotism and heroism of someone like john mccain. >> much more on donald trump's comments. with a man who says they make him unfit to be commander in chief. former texas governor and a veteran, rick perry. ♪ ♪ (vo) making the most out of every mile. that's why i got a subaru impreza. love. it's what makes a subaru a subaru.

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on tax cuts. we cut the rates on personal income taxes. we enacted the lowest corporate tax rate since 1968. we eliminated the income tax on manufacturers altogether. with startup-ny, qualified businesses that start, expand or relocate to new york state pay no taxes for 10 years. all to grow our economy and create jobs. see how new york can give your business the opportunity to grow at ny.gov/business welcome back. yesterday might now be remembered as the day the republican party turned against donald trump in full. after his attack on john mccain. my next guest, former texas governor rick perry is one of trump's rivals for the 2016 nomination and has been ahead of the crowd against the real estate tycoon most recently hitting him over comments over john mccain. governor perry, welcome back.

>> thank you. >> donald trump this morning has already put out a statement that not only does he not know owe john mccain an a i poll gi but john mccain owes an apology for his comment calling supporters of donald trump crazies. how do you respond to that? >> over the top, bombastic rhetoric from donald trump. this time he's been able to offend one of the most beloved groups in america, and that's our veterans. i just -- i really don't understand his strategy here of taking on a bullet that went through john mccain and a hit a lot of us that wore the upniform of this country. this is really offensive. we need someone to be bringing this country together. chuck, there's a reason that when i announced for the presidency that marcus latrell, morgan latrell, mike thornton a medal of honor recipient. all of those veterans were standing on the stage supporting me because they know what i've

done to support veterans both in my professional life as a governor, but also in my personal life that a lot of people may not have known about. it matters that we have a commander in chief that respects what those individuals have done. i still stand by my statement. until mr. trump apologizes directly to john mccain and also to the veterans of this country, i don't think he has the character or the temperament to hold the highest position in this country. >> well, are you comfortable appearing on stage with him to debate or do you think he should be kicked out of the debates? >> well, i'm going to let the folks who are putting the debates together, but i'm real comfortable being on the stage with him and confronting him on a host of issues he's just wrong on. there's one thing to spew ininvestigatives and spew rhetoric out there. but america's looking for somebody that's got some solutions. and i'll be real honest with you, i haven't heard any solutions coming from donald trump. just rhetoric.

>> is this a reap what you sow issue here for the republican party? there was an -- the party embraced donald trump four years ago. mitt romney sought his endorsement. a lot of you were courting donald trump when he dropped out during this whole birther craze at the time. you actively reached out to him. in hindsight was that a mistake for the party to embrace trump four years ago? >> his twitter handle is the real donald trump. i'll suggest to you, we're seeing the real donald trump now. >> and that is what? >> well, we're seeing an individual who's more interested in throwing invectives in this hyperbolic rhetoric out there rather than laying out solutions. listen, we need somebody, as i laid out ten days ago, two weeks ago, about how the republican party needs to be reaching out to people of different cultures and races and ethnicities, what we've done in the state of

texas, for instance, to let african-americans keep more of what they work for, graduate from high school at some of the highest rates. as a matter of fafktct, the highest rate in america. that's what the republican party needs to be about. that's what we need to hear. frankly, that's what americans are begging for. a leader that has solutions to give them hope that the best days are in front of us as a country. >> rick perry, thanks for coming on this morning, former governor of texas, appreciate it. i want to remind viewers, i talked to governor perry yesterday as well. we had a more extensive conversation on a variety of issues, including border security, the state of his own campaign and much more. see more of that on our website nbcmeetthepress.com. get some reaction from the panel. danielle, has donald trump hijacked the republican party? at what point do you say, enough is enough. >> he's an idiot. he's in this for himself. that's always been the donald trump story. he's a rich guy spending his money to promote himself and to mouth off. he wants a tv show. he wants popularity.

he'd light his hair on fire if someone would pay attention to him. believe me, it wouldn't be a bad thing. >> at some point he might if it runs out. >> he's a side show. he's not a legitimate presidential contender. even though i'm trying not to be political here, i'll tell you, he's offended every veteran, offended every hispanic with his comment on immigration. the guy is not a legitimate political -- he's got no organization. he's a celebrity run amok. he's insummited -- i think what he said about mccain. i disagree with mccain on a lot of issues but here's a guy that was tortured. here's a guy that has defended this country. a war service that's is exemplary. for him to say what he did is not just disgusting and wrong, but it should -- you know, if i were a republican candidate, i would not get on the stage with

him. they should demand -- they should demand the republican candidate 15 or 18 or 30 that are there that they will not participate in a debate with trump. >> listened, i've talked to campaigns who are desperately hoping this is the moment. >> in fact the way he really hurt himself with the group, at least the evangelicals and i last night was not about john mccain. what people were talking about afterwords is what he said about communion, about confession and god, what he said about his marriages. that's the rhetoric and the language he has to worry about in iowa. that's what may have really hurt him with that group. i think the republicans -- it's interesting to note as democrats are saying, they did not stand up against him when he talked to abusively about president obama -- >> as collectively, there are plenty -- >> collectively. republican candidates this year did not -- collectively -- there were some jeb bush marco rubio, >> collectively did not stand up

when he's talked about mexico and immigrants with such racial rhetoric. it was only when they -- when he attacked john mccain that the group -- >> let me bring tom in here up. you write sometimes about this larger sometimes narrative about this state of american politics. are we reaping what we sow? the reality show atmosphere of how politics get covered, where we have made it easier for donald trump to blow up our campaign process? >> we've turned politics into sports, it's pspn, politic sports network, not just espn, and when you do that, someone takes it to a logical conclusion and that's what trump is doing. the tragedy is it's happening at a time when we're in an incredible high speed in terms of a change and the pace of change. >> globally, millennials, it's all over the place. >> governance matters all the time but right now, governance

matters -- >> danielle, i interrupted you. >> i thought you were being a little unfair to republicans. i think everybody is at the beginning stages of this process. it started too early. it's starting earlier and earlier every year. there's more and more time for clowns, ridiculous behavior. and i think the republicans haven't found their ground yet. i think that's one of the reasons -- >> well -- >> no, no, no, no. i don't think anyone in the republican parties who thinks calling -- >> hispanics are rapists. he said -- >> i don't think there's anybody against -- anybody in the main stream of the republican party that thinks it's okay to denounce one group -- >> ted cruz defended him. >> speaking of -- >> mainstream. >> -- of what's happened here in the immigration -- >> so much for ted cruz. >> one of the things we got to remind people, people that do support donald trump are angry about politics in general in washington. they know trump is kind of a clown. >> they're voicing something that's very important. >> that's right. we can't ignore that aspect of it. when we come back, though, i want to take a closer look at donald trump's claims about illegal immigrants. we do this in a much more thoughtful way, our immigrants

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visit pge.com/checkup and get started today. "nerdscreen" time. 2016 race is in full swing and thanks to donald trump, it seems

like people want to talk about one topic right now, and it's immigration. that's one thing donald trump is right about, without him we wouldn't be talking about it as much. before we get to our substantive immigration debate we want to separate some of the facts from fiction that you've been hearing from him. it turns out there is no fame evidence to back up trump's now famous claim that immigrants are rapists and bringing crime to the united states. in fact, we couldn't find a single study that links violent crime and immigration. moreover, we actually did find one study that says the crime rate among first-generation immigrants, those born elsewhere, is lower than overall crime rate among all residents in the united states. trump has also said we have no protection at our borders. well, of course, he's right there is a border problem. but number of illegal immigrants is down. in 2007 there were 12.2 million unauthorized immigrants in the united states. that figure dropped to 11.2 million in 2012, the last year for which we have figures. and then there is his other claim here, are mexicans flooding into the country, as

trump suggests. net migration between united states and mexico is, get this, zero. meaning there are just as many people emigrating to mexico as there are mexicans coming from mexico. ready for this? according to government accountability office border security in the southwest is about 84% effective. that's not perfect but that is a "b" average. the cost to seal the southwest border is an estimated $28 billion a year. roughly the annual budget of the entire justice department. the last time the amount of money we've been spending was $18 billion a year. so, we have to find another way if we want to do even more money on that front. there's a lot to say in the immigration story. in fact, i spoke with two strong voices on either side of the immigration debate. congressman joaquin castro congressman from texas, and a republican congressman raul labrador from idaho. define the scope of what you think -- do we have an illegal immigration problem in this

country right now? >> we do have an illegal immigration problem in the country but we also have a legal immigration problem because we're dealing with legal immigration system from the 1950s. we have to update and modernize the immigration system. we have a problem at the border where we don't know who's coming in, who's leaving. we have a visa entry problem where we -- we know who's coming in legally but they're not leaving and we don't know if they're leaving, why they're not leaving. >> same question to you. do you believe we have an illegal immigration problem in this country? >> we're always going to be concerned about securing our border. we were concerned about it five years, ten years ago and we're concerned about it today. i respect raul a lot because a few years ago he was part of a gang of eight in the house of representatives that was trying to come to some kind of solution on immigration reform. but i do disagree with the facts. the border has never been more secure than it is now. i know there are a lot of folks who don't believe that people don't like to hear it.

but the fact is the net migration with mexico is zero. if you look back 20 or 30 years ago, that was not the case. so, a lot of the hysteria you see now about illegal immigration is really about politicians on the right wing like donald trump, who are playing to a very angry base of people who are engaging in stereotyping immigrants and really blaming them for a lot of the country's ills. but we've never committed more resources at the border than today. >> define the idea, perception versus reality. do you think there's a little overhype? >> there's always overhype especially when you talk about trump. he overhypes his ties, his suits. everything he talks about he he's going to overhype. but he's hitting on an issue -- you have a gentleman that crossed the united states border five times illegally. the only reason he was caught is because he was committing crimes. finally he's caught because he just killed a young woman in san francisco.

that's not overhyping. that's a reality. under this president's administration, and he's claiming he's prioritizing criminals, this person was able to be released to a sanctuary city -- >> that's where i want to pause. sanctuary city. congressman castro, should we have them? i understand the motivation of some cities and why they did it. it was sort of prosecutorial discretion. it was sort of what do you prioritize? but has it gotten out of hand. has it made it where there's this weird gap between federal authority and state and local authority? >> the first thing is in texas we don't have sanctuary cities. in fact there is no legal definition of a sanctuary city. as you know, chuck and raul, that term has often been used pejoratively. >> but there are cities that have passed laws -- >> absolutely. >> -- that talk about what can be turned over to i.c.e, immigration enforcement of the federal government, and when should people that are picked up not be turned over. correct?

>> you're right about that. but i think the focus on the relationship between the local and federal government is the wrong one. >> is it broken, though? >> oh, absolutely. the whole system is broken. but the focus should be on the question of, who are you going to allow to stay here and obtain legal status and who are you going to deport? >> i want to get to this undocumented issue but i also want to get to border security. do me a favor. define amnesty. >> i think amnesty is no questions asked. anybody who's here gets allowed to stay that you don't vet people that you don't prioritize criminals versus others. >> what do you think of that definition? >> i disagree. amnesty is giving someone the benefit of their illegal action the benefit of what they were seeking. that's amnesty. >> so under that then on the 12 million, any path to even legalization is going to be defined as amnesty by some opponents. right? >> it could be. that's why we need to deal with the issues that actually trump is talking about. that's why people are so excited about what he's saying, even though i don't agree with the

way he's saying it. people are concerned we have a broken immigration system, a border that is broken we have a seize system ha is broken. they want those issues to be solved first. the american people are rational people. they're good people. they're going to decide what to do with the 11 million once they feel safe and secure in their homeland. right now they don't. >> what do you think about doing it in that order? you've been more open-minded about that than others. other democrats haven't been. >> i would say we're open to seeing any sequence at this point on immigration reform, whether it starts with border security or something else. we just haven't seen it. they have literally passed nothing since they've taken the majority. >> that's not true. joaquin seeps saying that. we passed an immigration bill three years ago that i was one of the chief drivers of it that was going to deal with the high-tech immigration issues. it passed the house overwhelmingly. what most republicans voting for it, it went to the senate and the president said he would veto it. he said he would veto it because there was no comprehensive immigration reform. >> why do you think there's so

much -- maybe it's fear, maybe it's concern. why do you think it's out there? is it economic driven? is it rural versus urban? what is it? >> the period we're in is no different than when the germans came and experienced a lot of the same biases, when the irish came and there were signs up, italians the same thing, the chinese exclusion act. so, we're in a period for latinos and other immigrants that is similar to that. and i think we will get past it, but it is a fear of the unknown. and it's also exacerbated by people, unfortunately, like donald trump stoking that for political gain and political purposes. >> i'm going to leave it there. hope we prove that -- you guys disagree but you did it with smiles and you did it with the way congress should work. thank you for doing this. >> thank you very much. >> and you can see much more of this debate on our website, including the discussion on whether there's too much legal immigration here in the united states. all of that is on meetthepressinnocent.com.

blk all of that is on "meet the press" nbc.com. coming up, our end game segment. hillary clinton's enthusiasm gap. how serious is it? >> announcer: stay tuned for "end game" brought to you by boeing. >> announcer: stay tuned for "end game" bro are you moving forward fast enough? everywhere you look, it strategy is now business strategy. and a partnership with hp can help you accelerate down a path created by people, technology and ideas.

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>> shoe just really turns me away and he fired me up. bring out her authentic self and her true self. >> if she becomes the nominee -- >> oh, yeah. >> -- will you still turn up and vote for her? >> absolutely. >> absolutely. >> i would definitely vote for her. >> those are activists at net root nation. it is a progressive gathering which hillary clinton skipped this year because of "scheduling conflicts." clinton may win their votes but their lack of enthusiasm may hurt her with scandal. 17% of her campaign money came from individual contributions of $200 or less. by comparison, bernie sanders raised three-quarters of his money from small donors. he had more small donors than barack obama did in his first fund-raising report eight years ago. clinton leads her nearest primary rival by nearly 40 points. why is she being forced to prove again and again she's likeable to the juggernaut she appears to be on paper. watching hillary clinton here

trying to appease the progressive movement while also try not to go to far to the left to make her unelectable in the middle. this is a different democratic party, though, isn't it, even the one you ran from? >> i didn't do too well so don't take my comments too seriously but i do think let's talk about the demise of hillary clinton and the lack of enthusiasm is so premature. look, we're six months away. i can tell you that iowa and new hampshire are the most progressive primaries. i suspect she'll get some setbacks there from sanders but you go into nevada south carolina, super tuesday, new mexico, where there are a lot of women and minority voters. she's going to be strong. you know, this talk about the demise, let's remember presidents are elected if they're centrists, if they're moderates. i think she's headed in that way. i think it is the right

strategy. >> her communications director anticipating the sort of noise that's out there about her campaign, she wrote a little memo and said it's true hillary is left in the terrible position of having the most resores of any candidate and being the voters' top choice to be the next president of the united states. but there is something missing that obama had. >> there's a passion missing. she has to thread this needle, she doesn't want to offend all the people in new york and wall street that have always supported her but she has to deal with progressive and anti-wall street, elizabeth warren and bernie sanders, passionately and getting huge crowds. she's trying to, as i say, quit -- court this middle ground. not offend so she can win a general election. and i think, so far, the lack of passion is going to be made up by what she hopes will be the women and minorities that then after -- >> sure. >> i agree, though, iowa and new hampshire are going to be troubling. >> tom, what have you seen from her?

is she a different candidate as eight years ago or do you feel like it is the same hillary clinton? >> it feels a lot the same. it feels like a campaign made in a test tube in a laboratory. where every chemical is carefully balanced for each voter, each district. i think she would greatly benefit from surprising us by saying, i know it offends the base, but i supported it as secretary of state. i think it's good for the country. sorry to offend you, but it's the right thing to do. >> you mean a sister soldier moment. >> yeah she would get a lot more traction on that. >> i have to leave it there. we tried to jam a lot in. viewers are hopefully the ones that benefitted from this today. that's all for today. we'll be back next week because if it's sunday, it's "meet the

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