race. >> that's right. if you stay away from policy that's the case. that is "all in" for this evening. up next rachel maddow sit go down with rick santorum. i'm going on run and watch it. >> good evening. i am very excited. i will admit tom. thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. black is white, up is down and night is day. dogs and cats living together peacefully. the news out of wisconsin today, there may be a freaking lion on the loose in milwaukee. a lion. a lion. i'm telling you, today is just today is a weird day. not just because milwaukee apparently has a lion. but also because as chris just mentioned, rick santorum is here. there he is in the green room of he is here to talk to me on purpose and he even knows it is me. he'll be joining us live in the studio.

we've got a lion in milwaukee and rick santorum here. i submit to you this. new jersey govern chris christie no longer loves bruce springsteen. it is tragic but it is true. i mean if there was one thing that made segs in this crazy world of ours it was chris christie's enduring love of bruce springsteen. look at him rocking out with full abandon. listen to how chris christie once describes hugging bruce springsteen. >> bruce and i had an opportunity to chat for a while friday night. we hugged. we hugged. yeah. and i -- he told me it is official. we're friends. so the hug was great. when we got home there was a lot of weeping because of the hug. and to be honest i was the one doing the weeping. >> i will treasure it forever. the exact phrase that chris

christie used to talk about, talking to and being hugged by bruce springsteen. i will treasure it forever. that was just a couple of short years ago. now apparently that's over. and here's how we know. chris christie and his wife recently sat down for a funny/quirky rapid fire style video interview with a conservative news site called life zette. he this answered quick succession, would you rather questions. so bradley cooper versus anderson cooper. ben and jerry's versus baskin robins. it was all going awkwardly according to plan until -- >> jon bon jovi or bruce springsteen? >> oh that's hard. >> is that a hard question? >> the music or the person? >> no explanation. >> bon jovi. >> bon jovi. >> after everything they've been through. after the hug, after the weeping, after i'll treasure -- but honestly throughout this

whole video, not just the heart bruce springsteen, governor christie just looks pained. he looks miserable. apparently this is the kind of thing you have to do to compete for the presidential nomination. after 130 that bruce springsteen concerts. if you want to compete for the republican nomination you have to consider bruce springsteen's bottom now. you have to throw bruce springsteen under the bus. that's the kind of thing you have to do. heart break. in general, if you really loved somebody personally somebody in your personal life you really love them. and they had a chance to run for president, would you want them on run for president? think about it. in all honest yirgs it must be absolutely no fun to run for president. chris christie does look genuinely pained doing stuff like this quirky video thing. it is hard to run. not just because of all the scrutiny. not just because you have to do hokie rapid fire interviews.

campaigning for president most of the time just doesn't seem fun. that fact alone should make the republican party this year feel quite lucky that they have such an enviable roster of folks willing to run. and i say that in all seriousness. the republican field this year is an embarrassment of riches in terms of real viable serious candidates. take chris christie. he is running on charisma and his personality. he is a charismatic, natural born politician. a two-term state governor. he tends to be a very big crowd pleaser in front of any crowd. a legendary fund-raiser. when he was head of the republican governor's associationering not only seat fundraising record he also got very unlikely governors elected all over the country including blue states. places like maryland and massachusetts and maine. he did that. he made that happen.

and that's the chris christie running for the. republican nomination this year. alongside him, you have the guy who served for 14 years as the governor of the state of texas. 14 years. governed the state through a time when texas grew its population and grew economically while the rest of the country was going through come appear i have thely hard times. he's executive leadership and a long government over a long period of time. plus he has amazing hair. absolutely top of the line presidential hair. then there is the current governor from the almighty swing state of ohio. if one state matters in presidential politicking, it is ohio. he's been twice elected in ohio. he has poll numbers through roof in that perfectly purple state. before being governor he had a long distinguished career in congress. he is also incredibly well connected at the king maker of king makers. he is incredibly well connected

at the fox news channel where he hosted his own show in between his congressional career and his gubernatorial career. but it just gets better from there. if none of those guys appeal to you, they have one of the highest profile women in the american business world. for a party on the wrong end of a very bad gender gap, carly fiorina is a hard edged aggressive candidate for the republicans to put forward when democrats will probably run the most famous woman in the world as their there candidate for president. and a current governor young, super energetic, not an old white guy. bobby jinldal is also a fire brand, super uncompromising religious conservative who talks about god and religion and being born again. every time he talks about anything and that can be a very important quality to a big swath of the republican base in particular. in addition to all those candidates they have biggest

foreign policy hawk in republican politics who named john mccain. he is the biggest forest policy hawk alongside john mccain. he's already been the nominee. they wonderful make him the nominee again. the only other person on national security issues and foreign policy and enthusiasm for wars of all kinds is senator lindsey graham. he is 18 years younger than his best friend john mccain. this year it is lindsey graham who is running for the nomination. and also in the republican race this year they've got the guy who came in second the last time around. the guy who won iowa 11 states. the last candidate standing against mitt romney. that would be rick santorum. and he has been pointing out on the campaign trail if you look at the modern history of republican nominees for president, the person who eventually ended up getting the

nomination and almost every modern republican primary was either a vice president, a son of a form he president, or the guy who came in second in the previous republican primary who decided to take another shot at getting the nomination. this guy we have two of the three in the running. we don't have a republican running. and we have jeb bush and the guy who came in last time rick santorum. so there is an embarrassment of riches on who is running on the republican side. even if you look at the small sample of the roster of candidates they are running, on paper, this is kind of as good as it gets in terms of a political field. but here's the thing. basically, none of those candidates that i just mentioned will be allowed to compete for the republican presidential nomination. most if not all of those candidates that i just described, most if not all of

them will be excluded from the first republican presidential debate. they won't be allowed on the stage. fox news of course is hosting the first republican primary debate. fox news has said they would only like ten candidates on the stage. the way they will fick ten candidates even though there are at least 16 running. they will take last national polls leading you know to the debate. that's it. fox news hasn't specified which national polls they'll use even though that debate is nine weeks away. the cut-off for getting in is less than two weeks away. they still haven't said what polls they're using. we've tried to guess how they might decide who is allowed to debate, to compete for the nomination. we've tried to guess using the vague fox news criteria. we've decided to try to figure out what the methodology might be. who might make it boo the

debate. we call at this time who's allowed to compete cable news derive random number generator. these eight candidates look relatively safe for making the debate but everybody else will be fighting for what we think are the two other podiums. the two other seats on stage that are arguably still up for grabs. the most recent national poll which fox news may or may not be using to decide who gets into the debate the latest poll we used shows an absolutely huge first place lead for donald trump. mr. trump is almost doubled his lead over the second and third place candidates in this "washington post" abc news poll. mr. trump is so far out in advance, it is hard to imagine everybody catching up to him in terms of the first debate. it is getting so the fight to even be allowed to compete in

the nomination this year at this moment when it counts, the fight to compete is right now. a fight to try to capture some of the attention that is going to donald trump. try to get one or two of his poll numbers he doesn't need because he is so far out in front. that baiks fact in republican politics is why this might be the greatest thing that ever happened to lindsey graham's national political ambitions. >> he gave me his number. and i found the card. i wrote the number down. i don't know if it is the right number. let's try it. 202 -- [ bleep ] i don't know. maybe it's -- three, four years ago so maybe it's an old number. 202 [ bleep ]. >> so give it a shot. your local politician. you know? he won't fix anything but at least he'll talk to you. >> donald trump giving out lindsey graham's personal cell

phone number is great for lindsey graham right? he's not going to get in the debate unless something radically changes about lindsey graham, his national profile right now. well, donald trump him connects their two name in the headlines. it allows donald trump to responsible with this strange, he has to destroy his phone because donald trump gave out his number how many else will lindsey graham make national news? >> i see rick perry the other day. and he is so you know he's doing very poorly in the polls. he put glasses on so people let's he's smart. and it just doesn't work. people can see through the glasses. but he has the glasses, the whole deal. >> that insult toward rick perry is the single best thing that ever happened to rick perry's

presidential ambitions. rick perry got to hold his big twr anti-trump speech today. not in south carolina but washington, d.c. what matters for him is the national press. the national press tends to hang out in washington, d.c. in order to compete this year you need national attention. the only subject republicans can get national attention is if they are responding to donald trump. that's lindsey graham and rick perry. that's their path right now. at this point in the race, this far out in the race. national poll numbers ought to be absolutely meaningless. this year it turns out they're all that matters. because of fox news. and the only way to get a bump in national poll numbers seems to be fighting with and getting yourself in the oernl of donald trump. and other candidates are trying to get attention many other

ways. john kasich said we should start a new ground war in the middle east. right now. we should put american boots on the ground to fipt isis. let's just do it em. jeb bush went to a fake abortion clinic. one of those clinic that's looks like they provide abortions to patients but they do not. scott walker is doing events in new hampshire with form he senator scott brown, which is inherently hilarious. you can do all sorts of funny or outrageous or provocative things. rick santorum said that iranians don't care about dying. iran will use a nuclear weapon. they don't care about dying. everybody thought saying that kind of a provocative thing, right? tripping that sort of wire somewhere would be enough to get a candidate national fangs would put your name in front of voters

and get two attention. donald trump is apparently the only on-ramp for candidates who want to compete. in that environment where no matter what you said and no matter what you did, it won't make news unless bits donald trump. if that were the environment in which you were operating and your political life depended on it what would you do? how would you deal with those circumstances? let's ask rick santorum next.

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the political right decided it was very controversial that president obama said one. thing he was for in a potential supreme court justice was that that person should have a sense of empathy. our friend michael steele was cheryl of the republican party at the time and he got on the radio at that time and he said this. and i quote. crazy nonsense empathetic. i'll give you empathy. empathize right on your behind. >> i'll give you empathy. empathize right on your behind. >> and so i bought empathize

right on your behind.com. we bought that website. then one day down the road. i didn't really make pals with michael steele i was able to offer him empathize right on your behind.com. i was able to offer that to him as a gift. we also known fred thompson is inherently funny.com. if i ever meet and make friends with senator fred thompson i look forward to giving him that web address as well. i have one that i've been holding on to all of these years and hoping to give to rick trul. in the 2012 race for the nomination, senator santorum went to florida and he gave a stump speech that included this anecdote. he was talking about long days door knocking on the campaign trail and one particularly hot day when a nice lady not only opened her door to him. she invited him in for a glass of water. the lady come back. she hands me the water. i'm patting the dog and attack a

drink. the next thing i know they have warm sensation. and i jump up and there on my tan pants is a wet spot where you don't want a wet spot. she said let me get that. i said no that's okay. i'm fine thank you. she says i can get a hair dryer. she said no. then she offered to have me take my pants off and put them in the dryer. by that time i was almost out the door. i thanked her for the experience. i get out the door and walk out on the sidewalk. i'm halfway through the neighborhood. what do you do? the sarasota union tribune in florida wrote up that anecdote and then they put this headline on it. dog pea can't stop trul. that was the headline. which seemed nice like they got the point of the anecdote resilience in the face of challenge, but it also seemed unfair. as a sort of gesture, we bought dog pee can't stop santorum.

i have kept that as rae direct to my own page all these years. particularly if you are on the left of the political spectrum there are a handful of things you probably know instantly when you hear rick santorum. he became nationally famous when he was discussing homosexuality. he discussed an egive religious will between same sex earch, you know, man on dog. that inspired the best response. the report he said i'm sorry. i didn't think i was going to be talking about man on dog with a united states senator. it is sort of freaking me out. after santorum lost his senate seat, he did keep up a hard edge on social issues. >> one of the things i will talk about that no president has talked about before.

i think the dangers of contraception in this country. the whole sexual idea. it is not okay. it is a license to do things of a sexual realm that is counter to what how things are supposed to be. >> if you know just one thing about senator rick santorum that right wing cultural warrior stuff is probably what you know. but widen the lens a little when you think about him. yes, he is running for president again, for a third time this year. and he is the one republican candidate who says he is in favor of raising the minimum wage. in my view he is the most forgetive communicator, the best speaker and that should count for something, especially in such a large field. he is absolutely correct on the issue of how badly the fox news channel is screwing up the republican primary by saying they'll only let ten candidates

in the debate even though 16 are running and they'll set the cut-off over who makes and it who doesn't based on national polling. rick santorum was the first to recognize how wrong that was and to be brave enough to say it out loud. even though that meant criticizing the fox news channel out loud. in january of 2012 ifls at 4% in the national polls and i won the iowa caucus. i don't know if i was last but i was close. the idea that a national poll has any relationship as to the viability of a candidate, ask rudolph giuliani that. ask phil graham that. he's right. he's been right on that for weeks and weeks and weeks. national poll are and should be meaningless at this point in the process. it is a perversion of the process for fox news to say national polls will decide who is allowed to debate and who isn't. he's right. that said senator santorum may

have been polling at 4% nationally when he ran and ultimately came in second to mitt romney four years ago. now he's barely pushing 1%. rick santorum is in the fight of his political life to stay in the running and be allowed to compete. how did it come to this? and how does he plan to turn it around? joining us for the interview, the former senator from pennsylvania and now presidential candidate. >> love that you're rubbing your hands there. >> i'm really happy you're here. >> relishing this opportunity. other people are not as excited to talk to you? i think you're as excited as i've seen some time so i'm encouraged. >> part of that is because republicans generally don't want to talk to me and i noticed a change in this. when rand paul first ran for senate, he announced his senate run on my show. we got along great. i used to have him and his dad

on my see. then we had this difficult interview where he couldn't answer about the civil rights act. did you not get that memo? >> i'm looking forward to the opportunity on get a chance to talk about i guess a whole range of shoossissues. and i gave up a lot. >> about two hours ago i had my picture with bono. i was with my daughter at madison square garden and we were about to go to the concert so here i am. so i'm giving up. >> what happened to your constituency from 2012. how come you're not doing better this year? >> i would say that most of the voters right now, if you asked them a polling question, this goes to your point which i just heard you say. if you did a national poll and asked them to name the republican candidates you would probably get three or four names at most. most people aren't paying that close of attention. and as you see with donald trump. it is who is driving it and who

is getting the number. that's not what i'm, i'm not driving that national mihm right now. i'm focused on what i focused on four years ago. doing well in the state of eye waffle building a strong organization which i'm doing. and if you go back four years ago, rick perry came on the stage about this time with tens of billions of dollars. tops in the polls after bachmann had won in the poll. neither got a single delegate. we were at 1% in iowa and barely 1% in the national polls. we are going to focus on iowa. >> this year the rules are different. because of that fox news rule that they're only taking ten people. they're basing on it national polls. if you're not there on stage, you and chris christie and bobby jindal and all the rest who probably won't make the stage, if you're not there, you're effectively not running. >> i disagree with that. i think what happens in july and august, it's like the las vegas

what happens in vegas, stays in vegas. what happens in august stays in august. lots of thing will happen of lots of folks will rise and lots of folks will fall. i always feel like the focus we're going to have is trusting the good people of iowa which did i last time. that when push come to shove, they start to pay attention on this race which historically is about two to three weeks out. they'll look at the candidate who is the best person to be the president of the united states at a time that is critical of this country. and i feel very confident after having spent the time there. and folks get to know me and kick the tires of all the models in the showroom we'll do just fine. >> fox will do this thing and i don't know if cnn will do this. what they are calling the kids table. you don't get to be in the real debate. >> i was over at fox today. i'm here in new york and they made the point to say we moved to it 5:00. almost quasi prime time. they'll be on the same debate

stage as the others. it will feel very similar. i was very frank with them. i told them i don't think that's a good idea. >> are you going to do it? >> look -- i'm here. i'm going to take every opportunity i can. >> i'll go anywhere. >> well if i'll a stepping stone to the kids table at fox news debate. >>. if you don't, interesting conversation with my staef the other day. i was making my case about that i think you are a good communicator. i disagree with you on almost everything. but i think that you, i think that a lot of people have worked very hard on their elocution. a lot of people look like high school debate losing team captains right now and you're very effective communicator. that's why i think it will hurt you if you don't get on the debates because i think such an opportunity cost for you. if you don't win, if you don't end up in the debates, if don't get nomination nobody picks you

as vp what else do you want to do? this is the third time you've run for president. >> second. >> second time to run for president. you haven't been in office since -- >> 2007. >> do you want to be chairman of the republican party? >> no. >> do you want to stay in national politics? >> look i've been pretty clear about this. this is the last race initial race i hope to run. i hope to be running for re-election in four years but if that's not the case i've given it my shot. and i've got seven kids and an opportunity to serve this country in other ways. and i'll look for that opportunity in the private sector or probably in the private sector. and do my best as i can and try to be a good dad and try to be a good citizen of country. >> i want to give you the best chance you have at making that debate. because i want you to come up with some we're going to take a commercial break. i would like for to us come up with a way that you can start a

very telegenic fight with donald trump. >> i saw how damaging personal attraction in a campaign. and i learned a lesson that i'm not going to take bate. i'm not going to take the bait of that that unless you attack someone. >> i don't need a personal attack. >> i know. that's why i'm on your show. i think you keep to the issues and i respect that. >> i won't allow to you leave. we'll be right back. it took tim morehouse years to master the perfect lunge. but only one attempt to master depositing checks at chase atms. technology designed for you. so you can easily master the way you bank. my constipation and belly pain feel

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the law of the land that the supreme court has the final say on anything. they do not have the final say on anything. [ applause ] is that the country you live in? >> republican presidential candidate rick santorum at the national right to life convention last month speaking to a very excited hyped crowd about the latest supreme court rulings. >> is that the country you live in? that the american people have the final say? >> well, the supreme court, it is the supreme court. >> yeah. but it is not a superior branch of government. if the congress says we disagree

with you and we can pass a law and get it passed by the president. >> you could not pass a law that could contradict. >> why? >> you can amend the constitution. they're ruling on the constitutionality of that law. >> what if they're doing it from an unconstitutional basis. >> they decide what's constitutional. >> that's not necessarily true. the congress has the right. when i took my oath of office as a united states senator, i would uphold the constitution. and my feeling is and i think it is clearly from our founding documents, that the congress has a right to say what's constitutional. the president has a right to say what's constitutional. that's part of the dynamic called checks and balances. >> but you're fundamentally wrong on civics. if there is if there is a question as to the constitutionality of a law, it gets adjudicated. the second syllable of that word means it get decided in the supreme court. >> but if they have -- >> you could not pass a law.

>> partial birth abortion statute. they used partial birth abortion to -- >> the planned apparently hood stuff. supreme court said it was unconstitutional. what did i as a member of congress was we passed a law outlawing partial-birth abortion. we listed the reasons why we thought it was wrong. we made a minor change in the bill. i passed it. president bush sign and it the supreme court reversed itself. >> you're not talking about changing the basis on which the supreme court decides something. the report that decides whether or not something is constitutional. >> could you say we disagree with that. >> yes. and if you do it in a way that districts supreme court, the supreme court wins. on the issue of constitutionality. on the issue of same sex marriage which is what this was about. do you believe congress could pass a national ban on same-sex marriage is and would it become law? of course. the congress could pass anything it wants to pass. just because the supreme court

said it is right doesn't him the congress's right to pass law. the supreme court can strike it down again. but the congress has a right to pass it. and a right to say to the court, you're wrong. i mean when we are -- >> would you want them to pass a moot bill? >> it wonderful be moot. you never blank the supreme court will do. maybe between the time, and this is, i think could be the case. maybe between the time they decided that decision and congress acted, things could have happened and they misread the tea leaves going on in america. i think what was going on with this court is what justice kennedy was saying. we see this definition of liberty is whatever we want it to be. this is where the culture is going so this is what we're going to do. he didn't tie to it any constitutional basis. there is no precedent that gives him the ability to create this new right in the constitution. so if it is created, it can be re-created. that's the role of the congress is to pressure the court to get it right. >> so do you mean that you would

want different justices in the supreme court? you would want this to go back to the -- >> what i would like to see as president, a whole new group of justices. if you have a new group of justices, i think you might get a different decision. >> can i ask you if you believe people clues to be gay? >> you know i've never answered that question. i don't really know the answer to that question. but i suspect that there's all sorts of reasons that people end up the way they are. and i'll sort of leave it at that. >> but it matters in terms of whether or not legally, the types of things that we're describing here. in terms of whether or not the congress should challenge the supreme court. if it is an immutable characteristic? you don't know sf. >> i don't know. if it is that leads to other situations. i mean we have for example, allowed in the law of the land. we have sex selection abortion. if you can determine whether one of your children is gay, should we say you can't abort a child because that child would be gay? you can't abort because you

found pout child would be a woman? how would you feel about a law like that? >> whatever is on your slippery slope over snowe how would you feel about. that if there are genes that make you male or female. >> you're worrying about the consequences of this without saying that you know whether or not it is true. >> because i don't. >> so do you think that some people clues to be gay? >> there are people who are alive today who identified themselves as gay and lesbian and who no longer are. i do know i've met people in that case. so i guess maybe in that case may be they did. >> do you think people choose can choose to be heterosexual? you chose -- >> i'm saying i do know people who have lived a gay lifestyle and no longer live it. >> do you believe it can be orchestrated? like you can person -- >> i don't spend a lot of time thinking about these things to be honest. >> you're very interested in gay rights though. you talk about gay rights all

the time. that's the whole reason you're a nationally famous figure before you ever decided to run. the man on dog thing. when you talk about the moral equivalent. >> i didn't do that. if you read the quote. and i challenge you to do it. the report he put the word gay in there. i never said that. i said the united states supreme court changes the standard to consensual sexual activity as the standard of privacy or protected tunneled constitution. >> the question you answered was about whether or not gay people should not have sex. you said you don't have a problem with homosexuality. >> go back to what i was discussing. the lawrence versus texas decision. this was all based on a discussion of the laurnlgs versus texas case. what i said was, if people have the right to consensual activity then they have the right to do these things. if you look at justice with scalia's disend and you looked at the majority decision in the 1986 case, the previous case on

this, it is almost word for word what i said. the reporter then took us off in a different direction and i said the things that i said. but the primary purpose of what i was talking about was changing the legal standard and that that would create a slippery slope which i think you're seeing right now. which is there are cases before the courts right now trying to change marriage to allow plural marriage. and there will be other things that will come around. and i'm saying the court opened up a pandora's box which at the time, lawrence versus texas. >> you're thinking bestiality. >> i'm saying people will make arguments for could not sense you'll activity. that's what i said. >> including -- >> what i said was -- >> why did you stay word dog? >> because i was quoting justice white in his 1986 decision and that's why i was referring to his opinion that that was the

majority opinion at the time. that's why i discussed it the way i discussed it. >> do you see how gay people -- >> i wish i had never said that. it was a flippant comment made to a report he who was, well not being particularly professional in my opinion in the way she was conducting her interview. that's not an excuse for me. i take responsibility nor what i am. >> and you regret it. >> absolutely. it was a flippant comment that should not have come out of my mouth. but the substance of what i am which is what i referred to. i stand by that. i wish i had not said in a flippant term. and i know people were offended and i wish you hadn't said it. >> senator rick santorum thank you for being here. i realize being at the u-2 concert. >> bring her back. >> we'll be right back. stay with us.

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show more of you. you don't have that much time to take away america's guns declare martial law and put hard working americans in fema camps. if you're going to do that you'd better get started. are you feeling, you know there's an ebb and flow to every administration, every president. it appears that you're feeling it a little bit now. you have this deal with iran worked out. you have your fast track authority. are you feeling like seven years in, whatever? >> i finally know what i'm doing? >> i'm figuring this thing out. is that how you're -- >> i tell you. there's no doubt that you get better as you go along. like any other job.

and you get more experience. what i do think has happened is that a lot of the work we did early starts bearing fruit later. and it just so president obama last night on the daily show. back to the beginning of his time in office. saying some of that early work has begun to bear fruit. now at the end of his presidency. not all of it of course. few days after his inauguration he sent an executive order to close the prison at guantanamo bay within one year he wanted it closed by 2010 he planned to vitt closed by 2010. the attorney general t defense secretary to get ready to prepare for moving prisoners ou of guantanamo in to prison cells in the united states. instead he found a maximum security prison for them in his home state of illinois. but he could not get congress to go along. that initial plan was put on

ice. and then the whole idea faded in to the background and stayed there for years. but then something started to happen a few months ago. last october, before the congressional elections, we heard reports the obama white house tried to close guantanamo without help from congress. then this spring the white house confirmed that the president quote had indicated a willingness to use as executive authority as he can to try to close the prison at guantanamo. that's a couple of months ago. the big question since then has been how would that happen? how would the president try to empty guantanamo close its doors if congress wouldn't go along. when would the president be ready to try it on his own if that is how he would have to do it. that is the operating assumption, if it is going to close it will have to happen without this congress. last night, they reported that the president may try to work

with congress one more time. ash carter they will deliver a plan for closing guantanamo to deliver john mccain as early as next week. senator mccain chairs the armed services committee and he was a proponent when he ran for president himself. it has been the main barrier to closing the prison because what do you do with the prisoners once the prison is gone? if that ban is lifted the plan would transfer lower level detainees to the u.s. bring higher level detainees deemed too dangerous for release to a military prison on u.s. soil. the "new york times" reported that yesterday, today the white house confirms the administration is in the final stages of drafting a plan to close guantanamo. and then they will apparently present that plan to congress. they are not going about it on

their own, at least not on the first try. what does this mean in terms of the likelihood of this getting done and if it does get done how will it get done. he has argued 24 supreme court cases including one that shut down president bush's military tribunals at guantanamo because they were unconstitutional. thank you for joining us tonight. nice to see you. >> thank you, nice to see you too. >> we have this news today that president obama is finalizing plans to close the prison at guantanamo. it will be a machine that he presents to congress as as soon as next week. my sense is that congress will never act to do that. but this must be the first step in a larger plan. >> yeah rachel. i guess i will try to be more linear than your last guest, which won't be that hard. look, he's got to work with congress at the first instance absolutely and talk to them. it's important to point out that a lot of people across the aisle

have said for years guantanamo should be close ed. colin powell said fit were up to me, quote, i'd close gitmo not tomorrow but this afternoon. even george w. bush said guantanamo is a terrorist recruiting tool around the world and a propaganda machine. it has been a policy failure and expensive at that. i think the president is doing the right thing right now. >> putting it to congress when you know that congress -- you don't know that congress will do anything. we can guess that congress will say no to this. is that sort of a prerequisite toward the president taking some sort of executive action on his own? i'm thinking of the precedent of immigration reform where the president tried to work it through congress, tried to bring people togethering to work on comprehensive reform and they decided not to do it and he acted alone to the extent he could. is that the temp plate here? >> it could be. i think it is important to approach in the way the

president has which is an optimistic spirit what about congress may do here. after all, gitmo has been a total disaster and failure. there have been only eight trials at guantanamo seven convictions reversed already or about to be reversed. it's not working. yeah i think he has to work with congress first. at the end of the day, i suspect he has some unilateral tools available but i'm sure he would do that in the last entrance and doing the right thing working with congress first. >> thank you for your time tonight. good to see you. we'll be right back. stay with us. when you travel, we help you make all kinds of connections. connections you almost miss. and ones you never thought you'd make. we help connect where you are. to places you never thought you'd

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always funny seth meyers and somebody considerably less funny but who likes talk about politics with him when she is not hosting her m msnbc show. here's a sneak preview. >> the one nice thing about it it's astonishing. the one nice thing is when you cover big-time national politics, there's almost never something unpredictable. in this case like that debate is going to happen. like is he going to pull his pants down? is he going to bite the head off of a bat? what else can happen? >> my prediction is he brings out a nicer, bigger podium. like little taller. >> late night with seth meyers tonight on nbc. i will be wearing this jacket but a different shirt. i will also be debuting some terrible new high-top sneakers that don't go with the pants at

all. that does it for us tonight. we'll see you tomorrow. now it is time for "the last word with lawrence o'donnell." lawrence. >> i will be taking style notes when i watch seth meyers as i always do with you. >> you are forbidn in this case. it is terrible. >> you are so right about donald. he takes the word boring out of any phrase involving political campaigning. it's no longer boring. >> that's exactly right. >> thank you, rachel. >> today rick perry asked donald trump a question that donald has not yet answered have you no decency, sir? but we will begin tonight with the arrest in and death of sandra bland. sandra bland's sister is our first guest. >> right out of the gate you see from that dash cam that this could have easily been avoided. >> we start with big developments this the investigation in