obviously not successful there. this time you have chris christie, carly fiorina, rand paul also betting it. so john kasich has to breakthrough in a big way for the strategy to be successful. >> thank you both for joining us tonight. "hardball" starts right now. it's a bird, it's a plane, will nothing bring down the man from metropolis? let's play "hardball." ♪ ♪ good evening, i'm chris matthews up in new york. you're hearing it in the press rooms right now, people who don't even watch the news are asking what's with this guy trump who is zooming to new attitudes? is he the teflon don, impregnable to attacks that would leave anyone else crashed and burning. what has he got that they don't? dare we say he's got what the republican voter wants to hear and his rivals don't have a clue.

howard fineman, editorial director of the huffington post upon and susan page from "usa today." trump is not called trump for nothing. he trumps everything said against him. in late june, he catapulted in second place after calling illegal immigrants as rapists and murderers. the next week was a nightmare for the trump brand, univision, macy's, the pga, and nbc, all severed ties with trump's name and his beauty contests. by the next week, he was leading the republican field with 17% of the vote. less than a week after that, he got a media slam again after questioning john mccain's war record. the rnc said there's no place in our party for trump's comments. but then this title, don voyage. trump is toast. and lindsey graham called trump

a jackass, so trump gave out lindsey graham's cell phone number. on july 15th, the national poll had trump gaining support with 18% of the primary vote, still in first place. the hits kept coming at him. yesterday he distanced himself from a top aide who issued an apology for comments about marital rape. and today we learned that the billionaire koch brothers are trying to freeze him out of the campaign altogether. what do you make of this? it seems like everything is being thrown and nietzsche is being proved. what doesn't kill me makes me stronger and it seems to be true. the koch brothers are supposedly in charge of who gets the nomination. they don't want anything to do with him and he seems to have something of a shot now at winning this thing. >> i agree, chris. and it's not only because he's not a normal politician to use your phraseology earlier. he's not a politician at all.

and he's able to appeal across an unusual, if not unprecedented spectrum brand here. better watch out, he might become a liberal icon if he's attacked by the koch brothers. he's taking on the old establishments and the would-be new establishments. the koch brothers, rupert murdoch, the democrats, he's taking on everybody, and yet not attacking social security and medicare. not attacking wall street. he's saying everybody can get rich like me, let's have a party, and that's appealing. >> i think the people who are watching, the leaders of the conservative media like roger ails at fox and not to knock him, but this is commercial. i think he's hot right now, very hot. and rush limbaugh is not going after him. so the people that watch the meters, know which way the wind is blowing, he's got it in their world. >> absolutely. he channels the unrefined id of the conservative base -- >> by the way, where is the

republican id? >> i can't imagine. but the thing is, the conservative base, if you read right-wing blocks, if you read them online, they're not just mad at the democrats in the media, they're mad at their own party. they're mad at the republicans for what they see as capitulating, giving n being soft, losing to barack obama over and over again. they want someone to be offensive, they want someone to be openly mean and angry and to channel their inner rage, and he's doing it and he's not going to pay a price. because the people he's attacking are people they don't like. they don't like john mccain who only got favor because he put sarah palin on the ticket. what is he going after? women? these aren't feminists on the republican base. >> the latest poll, donald trump leading among american women. susan, your paper, is always to me, and i'm not putting you anywhere you don't belong, right

in the american center. it's the great reading on the country, when you look at who you put on the front page, you're right there with the "zeitgeist." where do you see trump with the american "zeitgeist"? is he catching up with the american people or only the fringies? >> for one thing, he's fun to watch. so you can like him or not like him, you cannot look away when donald trump is talking. and the other thing that's been remarkable is the characteristics that would undermine other campaigns has fueled his. he refuses to apologize. that's great. people like the fact that he won't apologize. he brags about his money. people like that. but i do think there's a cap. i continue to think he's not going to be the republican nominee. might run as a third-party candidate, that's possible. but we see him getting like 20% support among republicans, there's a ceiling on his support -- >> how do you know that? what is the ceiling? is it 30% in the republican party?

>> 25. i'm making that up. at the end of the day it's not going to be enough to win. >> chris, i think the interesting thing now, a lot of the decision-making about this is in donald trump's hands. taking on the koch brothers, if he's really going to do it is a brilliant move, number one. >> the media will love it. >> exactly. and if he has the ability to actually exceed expectations, which are extremely low on substance and to begin to actually put out a few somewhat carefully considered proposals, people are going to, i think, not only tear them apart, but maybe approve the fact that this guy is actually moving toward something serious. so he can kind of win either way over the next few months. >> howard, you first and then everybody else. i argue that trump has to be in the headline next friday morning, that he will be in the headline, he has to be. if he's not in the headline, he will begin to crest. what do you think? >> yes, i think he has to be in

the lead of the stories, and he wants to be in the lead of the stories in a way that's not about him having suddenly exploded. i don't see him blowing up like the hindenburg on the stage in cleveland, he's too shrewd and leathery and experienced with new york media. but yeah, he's got to be in the mix and the other people have to decide whether they want to let him be there. >> the story will be about what he says, about what other people say to him, but he is the driver of that debate. >> if he blows up after this debate, nobody's going to be yelling like in the hindenburg, the humanity! [ laughter ] >> can i just say, i think the stories will be about trump after the debate, because that's the way it's going to be framed. how do the other candidates try to overcome it? he'll be in the headline, but can i just say on what susan said, he isn't fun to watch if you're black or hispanic, or if you're a woman who is not a conservative woman. he's incredibly offensive. >> tell me why he's offensive.

>> he said barack obama is not smart enough to be president. >> does anybody believe he means that? >> no, but it appeals to the part of the right-wing base that wants to believe -- >> do you think anybody on the right believes that? you watch the guy in the press conference, you can spot his iq, it's so high. >> trump is at latest 30 in the latest poll. the media doesn't like it, there's a part of the republican party that is archie bunker. so it's exciting for them. >> i would argue more than that. i think he's entertaining and they're tired of the bs from the politicians. why is curb your enthusiasm a popular tv show? because larry david says whatever he feels like. trump has sarah palin in his corner, the former vp nominee. you nominated her, republicans, praised trump as a hero and

trump returned the favor. let's listen. >> if there is a trump administration, could you see maybe picking up the phone and giving the governor a call, picking her brain on some things, or have her along in some official capacity? >> i'd love that, because she really is somebody that knows what's happening. and she's a special person. she's really a special person. >> picking the brain of sarah palin. never heard that before. >> first you have to find it. >> okay. you elitest media pile-on. >> sorry. but i think that's donald trump pandering, which is something that he doesn't usually do. i think joy is right. i think in terms of the -- his politics is not dog whistle, it's fog horn. yes, there's more to it than the archie bunker crowd, chris, i agree with you. in his appeal, you can't tell how far it's going to go and in what direction it might go. but, yes, one of the core pieces of it, we don't like the changes happening in america, we don't like them. we're going to say most of those them are outside of the united

states. they're chinese, they're iranians, they're mexicans. but it's the "them" with the capital t, that donald trump's core appeal is all about, fear of the them with the capital t. >> to the expert, susan, you're on an airplane to australia, who do you want sitting next to you? bill clinton always won that in the past. you want that guy sitting next to you. nobody wanted al gore. who of those republicans would have a warmer context in that regard in terms of sitting next to somebody for 13 hours, than donald trump? go through the list. do you want huckabee? i don't think so. rand paul? i don't think so. rick perry? i don't think so. i'm going through the list. maybe in the end, howard, you all may be onto something. maybe this attempt to try and find reality will end up with kasich. i don't see how it ends up with bush. this search for the saudi buster, the working-class hero can't possibly end up after this set-up, this run-up, with bush. if they nominate bush after

this -- >> if they do that, because this is exactly what's angering the base of the republican party. they go out there and support a ted cruz, but they get mitch mcconnell in the governing. if they get a centrist, what the normal world thinks is conservative like mitt romney or john mccain imposed on them again by the establishment, what that turn-out go down. >> that's why i think it's walker or kasich. what do you think, susan? >> i'm going back to your previous question, if i'm flying to australia, i want to be with donald trump, because that means you're not only in first class, you're on a private jet. if you're huckabee or lindsey graham or somebody else, you are back in coach. >> that's nice. it's a class consciousness from the media. surprise to everybody. [ laughter ] >> my initial thought a few weeks ago was that donald trump is great for establishment candidates because he's so weird and wild that people are going to run to embrace somebody,

quote, normal. but there's such dislike for politics today. don't forget, congress's approval rating is 8%. it's never been that low in history. and even though the president was saying he could get elected to a third term easily, his approval rating is only 49%. the people's distaste for politics is such that i don't know what the limits are for a non-politician politician, and that's what donald trump is in spades. >> i think he's santa ana leading the charge against the alamo. whether you like him or not, he's got the numbers. your thoughts? >> i was going to say that the only way a republican alternative could emerge, he would have to put donald trump in his place and do it in the way that trump has done to other people. >> who can do that? >> i don't see anyone in the field that has the charisma or the credibility to do it. >> one of them has the ability to think on his feet, and i don't see the other guys doing it. they'll have their bites memorized and they might have a retort figured out. but he will have nth degrees of

them, after every shot he'll have the thought you're an idiot, buddy, and you're stupid for taking me on. and that will be the bottom line. the press will eat it up. thank you all. coming up, norm peddoris is now saying what so many in the right have been thinking. the only alternative to the iranian nuclear deal is to bomb iran. he wants israel to do it and right now, he said the right-wing's alternative to the deal we're in is war. and he just said so. plus, mr. perfect, tom brady, says he'll continue to fight the four-game suspension the nfl upheld as part of the deflategate scandal while his super model wife makes the cover of the new york post in a burka. n and the push to kill voting rights in this country after the 1965 voting rights act ensured the right to vote, many on the right have been slowly chipping away at it. finally, this guy went over to africa to kill a lion. this is "hardball," the place

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the triple choice sale is on now at sleep train. >> welcome back to "hardball." republicans have ripped president obama for suggesting the only alternative to his deal with iran is war. many say the alternative is to get a better deal. however, the leading ne-yo con thinker blows the argument on that whistle. he writes i'm unable to escape the conclusion that obama is right. given that the six other parties to the negotiations are eager to

do business with iran, could these stringent conditions be imposed if the united states were to walk away without a deal? the upshot is, if the objective remains preventing iran from getting a bomb, the only way to do so is to bomb iran. he's not alone. dick cheney told a crowd of republicans that using military force against potential threats of nuclear arms has worked before. a few others have openly backed military action. here they are. >> the unpleasant reality is the only way to stop iran from getting nuclear weapons is if somebody's prepared to use military force. >> would you expect israel will take action, or will they just sit back and watch it unfold? >> i think they should have taken action five years ago. >> what do they do now? >> they should act before it gets worse. >> i don't think we should put israel in the position of having to save both themselves and the united states.

i think it's time to bomb iran. anything that resembles a nuclear facility, with centrifuges, it's time to bomb. >> the day before this deal, there was a clear choice which was to increase the sanctions. and this go to war line is misleading. you can have strikes that setback their program that aren't going to war. thanks so much for being here. colonel, thank you. it seems to me, this is the game being played by the critics of the president. they're saying knock this deal down, vote it down, veto it, sustain the veto, or whatever, override the veto and we'll come up with a tougher deal, when all along, they know this president or any president is not going to come up with a tougher deal. it seems to me, once this deal goes down as a failure, rejected by the congress, if that happens, they'll be able to start beating the drum for war,

because that will be the only alternative then, it is their preferred alternative, i think. what do you think? >> well, i think if the alternative is war and that is the only alternative that has, let's say, a 99% credibility for eliminating iran's nuclear program. bombing by itself won't do it. by us, by the israelis will force the program underground, maybe delay it by six or seven years. all our analysis has shown that and like north korea, they'll wind up with a bomb. so the only way you stop it is by full military action. you invade and you eliminate the program, every aspect of the program. and we're talking about trillions of dollars, lots of men and women and a situation not unlike iraq, if not worse. >> mike huckabee continued to make world war ii comparisons, calling the leaders of iran

animals. let's watch. >> i believe history will prove this deal with iran is worse than munich 1938. i pray that i'm wrong. am i wrong? >> you're not wrong, you're right. and in part because it took an incredible apparatus to build the structure to murder people one at a time, or several hundred at a time. 10,000 a day in auschwitz. with one nuclear device, several million people in a day will be murdered. i think we underestimate the radical nature of these animals who run iran, a terrorist state. >> what is wrong with obama? >> i wonder when i hear a guy speaking with some authority, a republican candidate for president, about the islamic world being led by religious leaders, whether we like their views or not, as animals. if somebody wants an east-west war, that's the kind of talk that might generate it. >> it's the first thing you do

before you destroy somebody, you dehumanize them. i think that's what he's trying to do, also trying to get some attention, trying to make sure he's on the debate stage in cleveland. but these comparisons to hitler should sort of disqualify him from the debate. anybody who argues online knows the iron rule, if you bring up the nazis, you lose. the comparison of president obama to adolf hitler is troubling and beneath the dignity of huckabee, i think. >> here's why that analogy gets messy. he continues to insist he does not want war, but he wants to cast himself in the role of winston churchill. listen to this. >> we saw chamberlain before, and it took a churchill to help get us out. when that speech was made, after it, churchill said that there was a choice between war and dishonor, and they chose dishonor. i think there's another choice other than war. i don't believe that's the only choice we have.

but anything is better than allowing these terrorists to have nuclear capacity. >> well, the history of munich, just so everybody gets refreshed on this. you know from military history, colonel, basically hitler with mussolini's support, said we're going to march and do it very soon, like in a couple of days f you don't act. he gave the brits and the french a delay of a couple days. he said i'm coming if you don't let me have it peaceably. so where does huckabee get his history? yes, there were options back then, but right now in munich, we deal or we don't deal. and we go to war. your thoughts? >> i think the only similarity between this issue of appeasement and quoting munich as the arch typical example of it is often irrelevant. and in this case, it's so irrelevant it hurts. the only commonalities perhaps are that each side is armed.

every other historical aspect and current aspect, with respect to iran is different. and in most cases, dramatically so. this is not that time. iran is not germany. it's not 1935, 6, 7, 8, or 9. using historical analogies to influence people for political purposes that's basically unaccurate is unwise and not something that huckabee should be doing, especially when this is a man who wrote a foreign affairs article, if i'm not too far off, in 2009, that essentially said, diplomacy was a good option, that the military option shouldn't be taken off the table, but it should be pursued. he's suddenly changed. he's changed because he wants polling points. >> what do you think of the iranian government agreeing to a ten-year delay on their nuclear program? they have not agreed to march into israel. it's not like that. it's not like 1938. thank you both. up next, the patriots up in

new england respond to tom brady's suspension. big surprise, they're not happy with the nfl. this is "hardball," the place for politics.

>> welcome back to "hardball." 3-time super bowl mvp quarterback, tom brady and new england patriots owner robert kraft are talking back to the nfl today. after league commissioner roger goodell upheld brady's four-game suspension over deflategate. on a facebook post, brady wrote, there's no smoking gun and this controversy is manufactured to distract from the fact they have zero evidence of wrongdoing. while the league says brady ordered his cell phone destroyed, but brady said he got rid of it after his lawyers told him they had no right to examine it. this is about underinflated balls during last season's championship. >> i want to apologize to the fans of the new england patriots

and tom brady. i was wrong to put my faith in the league. >> patriots head coach bill belichick wouldn't bite on the brady controversy. >> it's already been addressed. >> it's already been addressed. >> it's already been addressed. >> but the "new york post" sums it up with one word, cover-up, with a recent pick of brady's wife wearing a burka. >> steve, thanks for joining us. what do you think. to me, it's like johnny most in the old days. they always say the home team is right. sorry, it doesn't surprise me the hub of the universe still thinks it's the hub of the universe and can do no wrong. your thoughts? >> to bring a political analogy into this too, i'm thinking today of rosemary woods, those 18 minutes of dead space on the watergate tapes and she claimed it was an accident. i think that's how the rest of

the country looks at this claim from tom brady. that it just so happens i switched out my cell phone and destroyed the old one on the day that i was going to meet with the nfl investigator looking into deflategate. from the standpoint of the court of public opinion out of new england, tom brady was convicted a long time ago. nothing coming forward this week is going to change that. it's only made things worse for him. so it raises the question, why is brady going forward with this? why is kraft standing by him so defiantly? it is a little bit of that rally around the home effect. the fans up here, those are bob kraft's customers. whatever happens with the appeal, brady will be playing for most of the season. kraft's rally around his player, the fans are loving it and brady's thinking in terms of his legacy. >> is this righteous indignation which always worked, we were screwed, whatever the old baseball term? we got screwed here? is that what it's about, or are you going to take the kraft side?

>> the patriots advocates in new england are never going to back down on this. they are convinced that the nfl's wells report is just a ridiculous piece of paper that they never really have any proof of guilt. so the advocates in new england are never going to back off this ever, no matter what happens. even if tom brady has to serve this four-game suspension. >> even though ted wells went to holy cross. [ laughter ] >> a tweet, boston is here to support the patriots, i will always believe in my team and tom brady. that sounds like my country, right or wrong. my team, right or wrong. >> it does. i'll phrase it, there are more sensible people up here who think that even if something did happen, that the punishment does not suit the crime and that the four-game suspension is too much for what he did. look at it. if it was a hockey player with a stick bent too far, he'd get a four-minute penalty.

this four games seems out of whack to people up here. >> can you quickly says what went wrong here, robert kraft thought he was haggling, arguing with a rug salesman. it didn't work because the cell phone thing broke in. is that what happened? >> well, the krafts thought there was a precedent. with disciplininary matters, the five games will be reduced to two or one, something like that. so he thought, i will eat a $1 million fine, give up two draft picks, very serious penalties and in exchange, tom brady will talk to the league, work something out, it will be down to two games, or less than that. so that was his expectation. remember earlier this year, he was attacking goodell. then he stopped attacking goodell. he accepted the penalties. now he's back to attacking. >> i predict tremendous support for the patriots more than ever in history. righteous indignation goes a long way.

it's the patriots against the world! anyway, steve and joe, thank you for joining us. up next, "the new york times" delves into the five-decade effort to restrict minority voting rights in this country after the signing of the voting rights act in 1965. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics.

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welcome back to "hardball." when lyndon johnson designed the 1965 voting rights act, he did away with the barriers that prevented so many african americans from voting in this country. particularly in the south. thereafter, we saw greater access to the ballot box. in 2012, black turn-out exceeded that of white voters for the first time in history. among those over 18 who were eligible to vote, 66% of african americans turned out while white voter turn-out was at 64%. now as we approach the 50th anniversary of the act's passage, "the new york times" is out with "a dream undone." it's about how the protections of the act are being eroded as legislation being passed by

republicans is affecting african americans at the box. including voter i.d. requirements which have been passed in nine states. "the new york times" reports it's rare to have states move en masse to pass photo copied laws all at once without a national crisis. michael waldman has kept track of the new laws. there's not been this many restrictive laws on voting laws in the states. >> tara dowdell, tell me about this. you're african american. i'm thinking, the voter i.d. laws, all these states, they seem to be copycat, one does it, somebody else photocopies the law, passes it again.

all republicans, all aimed at offsetting the republicans' problem. >> that's a great point. when you put that map up, what we saw are states where there are major demographic shifts taking place. >> you know a lot of hispanic immigration? >> yes, exactly. if you look at the voter fraud prevention software that no one talks about, the names they were talking about, jackson, garcia, kim, patel. again, no coincidence. this is part of an ongoing pattern -- >> african american names, south asian names and hispanic names? >> yes. in 2008, again, no -- >> whoever heard somebody named washington, they figured african american, we're going to nail this guy. >> right. but you look at 2008, that was the first time black turn-out nearly equalled white voter turn-out. what we saw was a ramp-up in these types of restrictions. >> for the defense, what do you

think? how does your party defend stuff like that? in pennsylvania, the party is saying, we're doing this to carve down the democratic vote. they're saying it. >> and that's the problem. they're using the wrong playbook. they should be doing something different. when it comes to voter rights, when it comes to i.d. -- >> you mean, telling somebody you don't want them to vote is not a way to get their vote? >> probably not. [ laughter ] when you limit who your pool of people are, elections are about adding, not subtracting. >> why doesn't your party go for the middle class black vote? >> because i don't think they know how to win it. they don't know what to do or how to change it. at this point, they're so settled in, they say, you know what, it's not going to happen and we can keep winning this way. so maybe they need a long walk in the woods to figure it out. but until they start opening their eyes and realizing that there is another place to go, they're going to keep creating these issues. >> nick, it's great you've done this.

it comes out as helping the democratic argument, but it's a fact. >> what we see is a retreat. there are two ways in a diverse country to win the votes of people of color. you can appeal to them or stop them from voting. it's a retreat from the big 10 philosophy. you can't be the big 10 party for the gop and the party that makes it harder and harder to vote if you're poor or a person of color. >> voter fraud in this country is not as widespread. quote, in-person voter fraud in which you impersonate someone or try to vote more than once is almost entirely non-exist in the u.s. an study found only 31 examples. that surprises me. i know in minnesota, and wisconsin, it's very clean. i'm surprised some of our other states it's that clean. >> that's surprising. you can't get anyone in this country to vote.

>> i'm amazed they're that clean. >> the voter i.d., put that aside. when you start passing laws that say sunday voting is gone, and mail-in voting is done. it's not about security or i.d. it's about having smaller opportunities for fewer opportunities to vote. that to me is a bad thing. >> you're a democratic person here. tara, when you have a big city, huge neighborhoods which are african american, hispanic and democratic. there's no republican person there watching the polls. there's nobody there to make sure somebody is who they're supposed to be. so how do you know there isn't corruption? everything is so gerrymandered and neighborhoods are self-sorted ethnically. we know that. there's nobody there to watch the other side. there's no blacks in westchester watching the republicans. who's keeping them clean? >> technically there are supposed to be poll watchers present from both parties. >> are they? >> they're supposed to be. >> and you get paid.

>> they pay the democrat and the republican, $120 to show up. >> paid poll watchers, that is true. and the other thing, different organizations all found that this is a non-issue. maybe back in the days in chicago, this was something that was far more prevalent in jersey city where i'm from, but -- >> i grew up in philly. [ laughter ] i saw a republican committeeman in the voting booth with the voter, behind the curtain. i said what are you doing in there? he said i'm rendering technical assistance. he said, this isn't your primary anyway. go to the democrats and complain about them. there is this partisan sense, this is our baby, leave us alone. >> there's a lot of poll watching going on in democratic primaries too. [ all speak at once ] >> i would not argue against your thinking. the roundtable is staying with

us. up next, a look at the bravado of donald trump the businessman. this is "hardball," the place for politics. you know the best thing about summer pizza? it tastes light. it tastes fresh. and it's pizza. try our new grilled chicken margherita pizza. a large for only $12.00. and, add a chocolate chip cookie for only $5.00 more. better ingredients. better pizza. papajohns.com.

>> side news, democratic congressman chaka fattah, along with four others, have been indicted on racketeering charges in connection to his 2007 run

for mayor. among the 29 counts, prosecutors allege he used charity donations to pay off a campaign loan and used money to pay for his son's students loans. the congressman has stepped down from his leadership position on the appropriations committee, but today denied any wrongdoing. >> this is not deflategate. we have actual allegations, we'll have a chance to respond, but i'll stand by my previous statement. i've never been involved in any unlawful activity or misappropriation of funds. >> we'll be right back.

i don't need anybody's money. it's nice. i'm using my own money. i'm not using the lobbyists, donors, i don't care. i'm really rich. >> i'm proud of my net worth. >> i'm not doing that to brag. i don't have to. >> we're back with the round table. donald trump says as he straight talking presidential candidate who unlike his many gop vifls free from the burden of raising money or owing favors to anybody because his extraordinary wealth is bank rolling his quest for the presidency. "the new york times" looked at it. under oath, donald trump shows his raw side. the times reported that hundreds of pages of sworn testimony by mr. trump over the past decade shows something less flattering. some of his claims made under oath and under pressure are shown to be hyperbolic, even outright misstatements. in rare instances, he turns boarish and it shows that mr. trump's relationship with the truth. a lawyer asked, have you ever exaggerated in statements about your properties?

trump applied, i think everyone does. well, that's where he is. i guess when you sell a property, you say, it has a beautiful view here. no traffic noise. you have the people come in when there's no traffic and they buy it. selling in america is hyperbolic. >> you always oversell. he was saying that, what he's saying on the campaign trail is i'm the anti-politician, right? and what he is saying is i sell buildings the same way a politician talks. and it kind. undercuts the brand a little bit. >> do you think? >> a little bit. >> do you think he will take loss for something he said in a deposition x-many years ago that "the new york times" reports? >> exactly. trump making up things about his business. i had not noticed. i don't know this will hurt him. >> what has he made up? >> he's overstated his wealth.

he is saying it fluctuates with the stock market. >> i think it is lower. >> lower than $11 billion? >> yes. probably somewhere around $2 billion. >> how do you know that? how do you do that? how did you just do that? you just took $9 billion off his books. >> just like he does. >> at least bloomberg did a real study on it. >> there's bloomberg. they've been studying it. >> i think the margin of error of how much he owns is a lot. he licenses his name. a lot of these buildings are not outright owned by donald trump. >> why do buildings want buildings named trump? >> he has a brands. that will be part of the problem. this deposition was just one little tiny crack of a million you're going to final. because he does have his name licensed to a lot of projects. he is used to being vetted through the gossip columns and business deals. his ego can't handle it.

>> you know there will be nine other guys there and you have to take on this guy. how do you do it? he is going to paste you. >> i think the problem that some of them will have, like jeb bush is, i don't think he can actually deliver the line without looking like he's delivering the line. >> to have a ready line. >> there will be a retort. >> and he is ready. what i think is someone like a mike huckabee who can deliver a very sugary line and challenge him on the conservative issues. that's someone who -- >> suppose you attack from a defensive position. my favorite military tactic. go out and talk about a new line of proposals. surprise everybody with something. something that blows people away. something on education, student loans. and wait for these guys to attack him. go ahead. and when they attack, he takes their head off. that's what i would do. i would wait for them to attack and if they don't, i noticed you said something about me the other day. up i was this. i was a jack ass.

that was interesting. you take his head off. you play from a defensive position. the american people always root for the person defending. >> we're talking about breast pumps today. his platform on the issues and what he would do with problems for the country is kind of -- >> pretty clear on immigration. he is pretty clear. >> i'm actually curious. >> build a wall. >> it's going on benefit from all of these people running because he's not forced to articulate positions. also the people who he appeals to aren't demanding that of him. so on top of it -- >> what do they want? >> they want what they're getting. they want uncensored, unfiltered. >> i think his attitude is a result of his attitude. they just want to hear a politician show with that kind of guts. they want to channel it. he is saying things about other politicians that they say about politicians. but he is able to say the on a bigger platform. how many people have you heard called idiots?

>> you made your point. the average voter, 8% respect congress. thank you. thank you all three. when we return, let me finish with this guy who went over the africa to kill a captured lion. you're watching "hardball." the place for politics. h. word. there's looters running wild out there. covered for theft. okay. that's a tidal wave of fire. covered for fire. what, what? all right. fine. i'm gonna get something to eat. the boy's kind of a drama queen. just wait. where's my burrito? [ chuckles ] worst apocalypse ever. protecting you till the end. now, that's progressive.

i like your place. oh, thank you, make yourself at home i'll be right back. hm. she's got x1. alright. huh, hm, ohh... monster? she seemed so nice at dinner. i'm back! ahh! uhh... whatcha doing? ohh, just... watchin' law & order. awww, you're nervous. that's so cute. call and upgrade to get x1 today. ♪ let me finish with this guy who went over to africa to kill a lion. i grew up enthralled with africa

and all its vivid wildness i treasure that we live on a plan pet does include the wonders of elephants and rhinos and all the rest just dice with america, that has buffalo still roaming in the west. we also include a world that has a human being who gets kicks out of killing big animals. who believes he creates a picture of himself be. this is about death, pure and simple. just death. that's all. the head of the lion this guy had cut off so he could mount it as a symbol proves nothing except his ability to put a contract on a captive animal. slaughter is not a profile in courage. only a staxt human disgraceful stuff now with the money he poured into his pathetic ego fmpl he wants to show off, he wants his ego to bulk, she leave the animals alone and go run for president or something. and if you want to do something about this, send some money to the international fund to the

people who care about saving the animals. not knocking them off so some guy can decorate his den with their heads. that's "hardball" for now. all in with chris hayes starts now. tonight on "all in." >> this is without question a murder. >> jaw dropping video of a police officer shooting an unarmed man. tonight we'll show you the body camera footage that led to his indictment for murder. >> go ahead and take your seatbelt off. >> and the mayor and police chief of cincinnati join me live. then the republican front-runner admits he told an attorney that her breast pumping was disgusting. >> i may have said that or something else. i thought it was terrible. she is a horrible person. >> the attorney in question, elizabeth beck, joins me tonight. plus, hillary clinton weighs in as republicans reveal their plot to defund planned parenthood and as outrage mounts over cease till lion.