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good evening. i'm chris matthews in cleveland where we witnessed one wild debate. expectations were high. trump stole the show out of the gate and said i will not pledge loyalty to the party i'm debating within. an extraordinary moment. the moderator asked the candidates to take the pledge -- actually, told them they wouldn't take it to put their hand in the air and trump said i'm not ruling out a third party. let's watch. >> raise your hand now if you won't make that pledge tonight. [ cheers ] >> mr. trump. >> so mr. trump, you're standing -- >> i fully understand. >> the place where the nominee the nod -- >> i fully understand.

>> and that experts say an independent run would hand the race to democrats and likely another clinton, you can't say tonight that you can make that pledge? >> i cannot say i have to respect the person that if it's not me the person that wins if i do win and i'm leading by quite a bit, that's what i want to do, i can totally make that pledge if i'm the nominee, i will pledge i will not run as an independent and i am discussing it with everybody, but i'm talking about a lot of leverage. we want to win, and we will win. >> whose the we? the point is he's not a we. trumps just getting started. things got heated when megyn kelly pressed trump about his rhetoric about you might call it rhetoric about women. let's watch this heated moment. >> you called women you don't like fat pigs dogs slobs and disgusting animals. your twitter account -- >> only rosey o'donald. >> it was well beyond rosey

o'donald. >> yes, i'm sure it was. >> your twitter account has comments about women's looks. you once told a contestant on "celebrity apprentice" it would be pretty to see her on her knees. how would you answer the charge when hillary clinton who is likely to be the democratic nominee that you are part of the war on women. >> i think the big problem this country has is being politically correct, and i don't frankly have time for total political correctness. what i say is what i say and honestly, megyn, if you don't like it i'm sorry. i've been very nice to you but i could not be based on the way you've treated me but i wouldn't do that. >> well, i think the key line in his response is this hand movement, which i can get tough with you if you stay with that with me. a threat. a direct threat i would say. things got hot when moderator

chris asked trump about his company's bankrupt sis four of them. >> four times i took advantage of the law and so has everybody else in my position. >> sir, let's talk about the latest example which is trump entertainment resorts, which went bankrupt in 200. in that case alone, lenders to your company lost over $1 billion and more than 1100 people were laid off. >> well -- >> is that the way -- >> let me just tell you about the lenders. first of all, these lenders aren't babies. these are total killers. these are not the nice sweet little people that you think, okay? you're living in a world of make believe believe. >> absolutely extra ordinary if you follow that line. eugene robinson a columnist with the washington post and robert who does the a section work over

there. i have to tell you, i got to do my trump thing and put my hands out because there is nothing he can't get around. trashes the looks of women and says i'm only talking about, what's her name? >> katy -- >> rosey o'donald and says i only screw stiff people out of money in the trillions because they are bad guys. >> not the little guys. >> i watched the debate at a watch party at the american conservative union at the house of blues and first of all, wild cheers for trump. >> on those points? >> yes, got cheered on those points. he got through all these three points the third party pledge. >> rosey o'donald. >> comments about women and the bankruptcy thing, got through all of those just fine. the only time the applause for trump kind of quieted down a bit was toward the end of the debate when he seemed to run out of steam after, you know, how many times can you repeefat that everybody is stupid.

>> i think two-hour debate is too long. >> that's when jeb bush's people felt confident and i got notes saying this debate is shifting in our favor and there are moments that ultimately trump will come to regret. we'll see if that's the case but they felt much better. >> the first three-quarters was all trump. >> did you get a sense that people thought jeepb was on top of the situation? >> he didn't make major mistakes but at the same time he was given opportunities with the exception of the first answer when he went straight to his record as governor of florida, which is what he wanted to do in the debate after that he was defensive and a little bit muddled in the response. >> i love guys that write a section leads and i want to know the leads on the wires and washington post. what was the lead of the debate tonight? front page main bar? >> we got trump playing by his own rules. look at the first answer he gave brutally honest. he's playing to the part of the party that doesn't even like the party. they like that he's not facing

up to the establishment. >> is that the lead? >> he's not playing by his own rules, total trump, he's disrupting the entire field. they don't know how to handle him. he -- they are tossing him this question pledge loyalty to the party. he says no thanks. he's challenged on women. shrugs it off. they don't know how to control it and it's not ending -- >> we got news because you got breaking news now, moments ago casey interviewed donald trump in the debate spin room. let's listen to the exchange. >> i thought it was an unfair question. they didn't ask them of anybody else and it was an unfair question but the answers were good because everybody thinks i won. >> with all due respect, maybe none of the other candidates said any of those things about women. >> everybody came up to me they weren't questions but statements but it doesn't matter i answered them well and i'm very happy and really had a good

time. i thought it was an amazing debate and i got to know some of the folks that i really didn't know and they are really quality people. >> who is your most worthy opponent? >> a lot. i got to know some of them tonight i didn't know and i think there are a lot of worthy opponents. i think you have really good people on that stage tonight. >> do you think you could beat hillary clinton as an independent. >> i think i would beat her definitely as a republican, independent independent, tougher. >> he's given it thought this third party run, not just as an option. >> he has to say that and ryan said it would be a death wish for him to go as a third party. >> why would it be a death wish. >> he listed him in the same category as ross perow. >> robert do you think, this is fascinating because we watched a

two-hour debate and it seemed to be the news was made in the first minute. do you think there is a sense that fox has no role? why would fox be in charge of party discipline? why would they feel they have the responsibility to crack the whip of party discipline in a debate? they are just hosting. it's not the party. is fox part of the republican party? >> fox was trying to provoke and get, they see the front runner there. they want to get him talking. i thought they would ask about the clinton call or independent bid. he knew those were coming. >> let me get back to trump tonight. did he if you have to look at a poll and predict the next series of polls, the next five for example between now and september 16th when they look at the cnn because we know we do bunches of five will he go up or down? >> up. i think he goes up. not another medium rise. >> he hasn't crested? >> no i don't think he's

crested. do you? >> look i think -- >> did he make the headlines tonight is my first question? you said yes. >> that's clear. out of the gate. >> we'll hear the headline. >> the question is okay a lot of these early polls, polling people paying the closest attention and those are the con conservative activist and those are the most jazzed up by trump. the question is did this wider audience and it is going to be a wider audience did they receive that the same way and did they get behind and feel angry and energized or an audience that says i want somebody that has expert kbrensed being tog -- experienced being commander in chief. >> the fact we're focussing on four bankruptcies and talking about trash talk about women in the past. did fox do a service for journalism by opening up the doors? >> everybody has been looking into the businesses. it's only going to continue.

you question about trump cresting, who else had the same amount of energy on that stage? if you want to beat trump, you got to have momentum and get attention. no one else had it. he had stumbles but still came out as the king. >> he may have gotten -- >> i do think there are a couple people that better themselves. john kasich he's somebody that the crowd on his side and we know can really matter in a debate setting like this and second of all, he stood out on that stage more than i think many of the others. he had a couple good moments and that's what he needs to be doing. >> let's take a look at him. ohio governor john kasich talking about what pushed trump to the top of the polls. let's listen to his assessment. >> i was just saying to chris christie, they say we're outspoken outspoken, we need to take lessons from donald trump if we're really going to learn. here is the thing about donald trump, donald trump is hitting a nerve in this country. he is. people are frustrated. they are fed up.

they don't think the government is working for them. and for people that want to just tune him out, they are making a mistake. mr. trump is touching a nerve because people want the wall to be built. they want to see an end to illegal immigration but we all have different ways of getting there and you'll hear from all of us tonight about what our ideas are. >> well there he is giving him credit for being the booster rocket for the conservative issues. maybe doesn't have the right solution with the wall but raised the issue of illegal immigration. >> i think casey nailed it. kasich sneaks into this debate tenth spot goes right for trump's coalition. embraces the donald. says i'm your kind of guy. i'm a combative working class ohio governor. he thinks if trump fizzles out. >> who else is playing that card? >> cruise but he didn't really play it. >> not as much as kasich. >> they are all buying tickets on the trump express hoping the trump won't make it. >> you know trump did a couple

things to help himself tonight. despite maybe there were a couple stumbles but one thing he did for example was when fox went after him, he hit back. he didn't sort of accept the premise of their questioning and didn't apologize. he hit back. either a certain amount of -- >> what about when he goes like this to megyn, it may get tougher for you? >> i don't know new york hand signals. >> what's that mean a little tougher for you? >> well you heard him double down on that. i asked him about whether he was essentially saying no one else got asked questions like this on that stage to which i asked, well has anyone else made comments like this and he said everybody i talked to says that the question was unfair. >> really? >> so he's going after megyn kelly and doubling down. >> how many people has he talked to since the program ended? >> many people. >> huge.

>> robert costyou're all sticking with me. we'll get reaction, john kasich and this is "hardball" live coverage of the republican debate live from cleveland. did you know that meeting your daily protein needs actually helps to support your muscle health? boost® high protein nutritional drink can help you get the protein you need. each serving has 15 grams of protein to help maintain muscle, plus 26 vitamins and minerals including calcium and vitamin d to support

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welcome back to "hardball" live in the streets of cleveland with interesting people joining us in the streets. anyway, we've been watching the first debate. who came up on top and got the best punches and who was hillary clinton watching tonight and perhaps fearing? that's a strong word. joining me now is former united states senator from new hampshire john who is a big banker of john kasich. here is the governor of ohio talking about same-sex marriage

tonight. >> because somebody doesn't think the way i do doesn't mean that i can't care about them or can't love them. so if one of my daughters happened to be that of course i would love them and i would accept them. if she's like issues like that are planted to divide us. i've been saying all along, we need to give everybody a chance, treat everybody with respect and let them share in this great american dream. god gives me unconditional love, i'm going to give it to my family and friends and people around me. >> you know that is an amazing appeal of compassion that reminds me of bobby kennedy, part irish cop and guy that talked like that and cared like that. will that work in the republican party today when there is so much anger and bitterness? >> absolutely. the power of the answer and many of john kasich's answers tonight is that it was the truth.

he just talked about what he had done as a congressman, what he had done in ohio and drives and motivates him and his vision and when you talk about those things passionately and from experience leadership qualities come through. i mean they see that you're poised and presidential so you don't have to say i'm a leader or presidential. it comes through in the passion and the clarity with which we answer questions and that's why john kasich did so well tonight. >> is the there a cloth coat republican party? >> that's like two generations ago. i'm not sure what that means. >> it means is guys -- >> there is arerepublican party. >> republicans, regan democrats that want someone who has experience that's tough that's honest that will tell somebody i don't agree with you and in that question he was saying i don't necessarily agree with everyone on this but that won't stop me from being a visionary and inclusive president. >> you got two message centers

tonight, one guy that grew up in pretty low economic circumstances and a couple of them like that and the bragger out there saying i'm rich as hell and say what i want about women and you're going to for me because you look up to a guy like me. the guy that worked his way up to being a good governor or making $10 billion. >> they are choosing a candidate for the presidency of the united states and that requires discipline and vision and leadership and not rhetoric not attention getting, not reality tv. i don't think donald trump helped him tonight but we'll see. >> when do the lines trump, when do trump's lines start to go down? >> some think donald trump's numbers go up. they may. at the end of the day, republican primary voters want somebody that doesn't need on the job training and ready for the role and that's one of john

kasich's strengths. >> i think the x factor senator is something that my colleague bob costa said republicans that don't like to party and don't like politics and politicians. it's not just republicans. just fed up with the political system and the way it functions or fails to function. >> sure. those voters were there for pat buchanan and ross. it doesn't mean it can't be done but people that speak with consecutive vision as john kasich has has governed with conservative principles but conclusively, that's the candidate that's been successful in previous republican primaries but also republicans that get elected president. >> i certainly do agree that john kasich cemented himself as part of the conversation a real

part of the conservation. >> he just squeaked into this conversation let's not forget. let's look at this response from jeb bush who is sort of near the top but not very exciting to a question about iraq. apparently he bobbled the this one. let's take a watch. >> knowing what we know now with faulty intelligence and not having security be the first priority when we invaded, it was a mistake. here is the lesson that we should take from this which relates to the subject, barack obama became president obama and he abandoned iraqi. he left isis was created because of the void that we left and that void exists the size of indiana to honor the people that died we need to stop the iran agreement for sure because the iranians have their blood on their hands and we need to take out isis with every tool. >> i don't know how you can keep talking with that with the

evidence that runs against him. there was never any evidence they had nuclear weapons and dick cheney said there were. it wasn't just mistakes of intelligence of intelligence they had new clear weapons and that's why we had to go to war and we break up iraq is a fact and the reason there isn't isis is we broke up iraq and with the shia in charge. these are the facts. the idea that we should have stayed there forever and avoided the problem the that we created seems to be contradictory. your thoughts about this because so sad to listen to a loyal brother cover for his brother. >> that's what he's doing. he reached this position after that long long week of fumbling around and trying not to say it was based on what we know now. you know i think --

>> we didn't know it then. >> is the correct version. we should have known. >> this under scores the narrative we had going into this debate. you have trump grabbing the headlines and jeb bush struggling to show in these kinds of settings that he is the front runner and while maybe his pocketbook is huge and we haven't gotten to the advertising stage, by the way, i'm wondering when mike murphy will air super pact adds on his behalf and maybe the campaign is wondering that as well. >> can you do biography ads of a guy everybody knows? somebody they are board with? >> this is his chance to introduce himself as something other than just bush and not convinced he pulled it off. >> i got to say at the republican watch party where i watched the debate there was no passion for jeb bush. you did not see, you saw flashes of passion for most of the other candidates in someway, shape or form. i got to say, i didn't see that for jeb bush. >> he learned a lot tonight.

>> this is a sample -- >> that's the dog that didn't bark tonight. the excitement for jeb bush. >> it may park in the coming weeks. >> for jeb? >> yeah. >> for all the candidates, you can't form get the early debates are about introducing yourself even if you're well-known. what's your vision and leadership and experience do you have and temperament? are you presidential and you can't assume that the voters know who you are and some of the candidates did better at that tonight and some didn't. >> your guy did great. >> he did. kasich did well. everyone in the panel thought so. thank you for joining us tonight here on behalf of john kasich our coverage from cleveland continues in a minute and later, john steward's grand finally. we'll show you that if you weren't watching that station and this is "hardball" on msnbc, the place for politics. can a business have a mind? a subconscious.

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it took serena williams years to master the two handed backhand. but only one shot to master the chase mobile app. technology designed for you. so you can easily master the way you bank. certainly, i think going third party is a death wish. i don't think that's any secret at all. i don't see that happening. you win an election against hillary clinton unless you're running as a republican. donald trump gets that and so we do, too. i've had great conversations with him and that at each step of the way, he's getting more and more comfortable in his

process. i'm just telling you my own personal opinion experience in working here with donald trump. i think things will be just fine. >> welcome back to "hardball." that's chairman of the republican national committee talking about donald trump tonight in the debate spin room. joining me is engagement chair nina turner and casey and gene are we me. what's an engagement chair? what's an engagement chair? >> out reach. >> right. >> let's talk about this may not square with your partisan views, which i love to not square with sometimes, i don't mind fighting. i think kasich did well tonight. i've seen governors of other states in the democrat or republican and seems like a better governor. >> chris, it might surprise you i think the governor did, too, and i warned my democratic colleagues not to sleep on

governor kasich. he is from the great state of ohio, great swing state and won in 2014 overwhelmingly with help from the democrats. >> won with 60 points. >> yes. >> let me ask you about what wasn't talked. i'm proud of the fact on this show "hardball" and other shows on msnbc we talk about denial of voter rights. >> yes. >> almost every week because it seems to be an american value. if you're losing the campaign because of demographics, you don't start preventing people from voting. traditional african american ways of voting and just saying let's tighten that up a little bit. >> yes. >> states like pennsylvania that openly said this is how they win elections for republicans. how about here in ohio? it never came up tonight in the two-hour debate. >> this is the 50 -- well past midnight but the 50-year anniversary of the voting rights act and none of the commentators had the courage to ask the

candidates where they stood on voting rights and the republicans had the pure gull to send out a tweet saying they want to give it to sacrifice and the way to do that is increase supporting. sometimes my republican colleagues subscribe to if we can't beat them we cheat them and we redistrict in a way the voter doesn't get to choose those running for office and then through trying to suppress the vote. >> gene hard to sell young people on the fak but you know it's a fact when voting rights and civil rights passed the republicans voted almost to the last man. >> absolutely. >> only a hand full opposed. >> the republicans never would have passed because of southern democrats. never would have gotten through. i grew up in southern california. very personal lease of legislation to say the least.

this happens whether today or yesterday, appeals court struck down the texas voter id law of republican passed and promoted and because it curtails voting rights and violates the voting rights or what is left of it. >> so it just bothered me again tonight when i see how the republican parties are passing through the night. hillary clinton will talk about child development, education, all the things parents, mothers care about and republicans didn't get to any of that stuff tonight. >> really? >> as if they don't have kids they don't have families. i mean, those issues become democratic and tonight, a lot more talk about republican stuff, security particularly. >> one thing i would watch for as we heads towards the general election is the question megyn kelly asked scott walker. she talked about the life of an unborn child to the life of a

mother and opposed abortion. >> not health but life. >> and life. and that could, i think, carry through in the event walker is the nominee, something you can hear in the general election. >> is there any hospital by the way, catholic or not, mormon or not that honors that better the child than the mother? i never heard of that. i never heard of that protocol. does that exist? >> whether walker makes it or not and i agree but the disdain shown for women in general, everybody has a mother. you know some woman that you love and to just blanketly say you don't care and treating women as carriers and that's it. >> it was worse than that. >> his glossary of words choice is like dog, i don't want to get through them all but megyn mentioned a lot. he did look for donald trump embarrassed while she was

reading particulars. he was almost blanching, almost. >> but the audience clapped, some folks at the audience clapped at that. that to me shows a problem that sexism is still okay. >> in part that was the dynamic and part it was the dynamic of the megyn going after trump and trump hitting back and some of the applause i heard more for the hitting back i hope. >> well i would hope too. i'm not so sure. >> i'm being optimistic. >> this is tricky because it's always a winning issue for the republicans to go after the media and so many moments in the debates in the past where a candidate has gone after the moderator and succeeded. fox news doing it a woman, megyn kelly, she's shown a willingness to get these -- >> ironically tomorrow there may be democratic ad writers calling out roger, can we use, can we have rights to use megyn kelly going after trump and his

reponce? >> really. >> that would be fascinating. >> thank you. good luck in politics. thanks for being with us and gene robinson and casey will stick with us as live coverage from cleveland continues after this. woah woah marge... you're not marge? i'm sorta marge. we both drive a stick, we both like saving money on car insurance and we both feel integrity such as, that of healthcare in the america of the us and therefore. yes. thank you. no. no. please, stop! sorta you, isn't you. start with a quote from esurance and get a set of discounts personalized to you, not someone sorta like you. esurance. backed by allstate. click or call. [music] do you like cougars? terry will you shut up! you are adorable. thank you. ladies your belts all snugged up? why do we have to buckle up? the pick up stinks with diesel. [ding] you've got to be kidding!

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welcome back. i have to tell you beautiful night. if you stay out all night, stay out all night in this weather in cleveland. this is like san francisco weather out here tonight. about 72 degrees and no apparent

humidity. the debate how it will affect the polls. it always will. there is no question donald trump will remain the center of attention. look at the stories for tomorrow. every paper will lead with what he said. i won't guarantee i'll run with the republicans. rand paul was the most aggressive in attacking trump. here is how paul went after him when trump said he wouldn't rule out an independent bit for the white house. >> he buys and sells politicians of all stripes. look look he's already hedging his bet on the clintons okay? so if he doesn't run as a republican, maybe he supports clinton or maybe runs as an independent but i'd say that he's already hedging his bets because he's used to buying politicians. >> well i've given you plenty of money. >> we're going to move on. you're not going to make the pledge tonight. >> i will not make the pledge at this time.

>> okay. >> rand paul's campaign manger and steve always in short sleeves. anyway, was this a connect or did you guys plannerly on you would take on the donald? right out of the bat you went after him. >> well i think senator paul won the debate in the first two minutes when he was the only candidate willing to hold trump accountable for saying i would run as a third party and hand the white house to hillary clinton. that is what it will take to beat the clintons. >> is it possible to get into a tangle with donald trump who seems to own the home court advantage on television to get a mano el mano? >> senator paul was aggressive and got the point across and people responded. i think that exchange demonstrated the ability to be

articulate and do it against trump who thrives in the situations. >> what do you make of this steve? i thought paul was good at doing what he does which is defend the values against the security state. in a republican fight, it goes back to ron paul again. it goes back to that 9/11 say 9/11 and immediately you win the security argument. i knew people that were killed. that sentiment, which is fair enough, of course just drives the audience and the audience goes. they don't think in terms of who is in my pocket and who is in my computer house. >> that was the other big squabble of the night. donald trump and you also had rand paul and chris christie and paul and christi both helped themselves. we talked about rand paul falling out of the news. this was a chance for him to reclaim turf in the fight, picking the battle with chris christie and said going in chris christie was looking for a moment where the republican

party fell in love with. the guy -- >> the bully. >> he got a chance to mix it up with rand paul. >> what about high schoolish? when one guy says you were out there hugging obama and the other guy said you're nothing but hot air. sounded like a high school argument. >> when you get into an argument with chris christie you never know which way it will go. at the same time this is a place where you know christi is speaking from a depth of personal experience on the 9/11 issue in a way that some of these other candidates are not. to be able to say look i've gone to the fight support and tried to get warrants and that's in part why -- >> he got personal and went after your candidate and half hour putting him on the web. >> yeah i think senator paul again, it was not backing down and being bold and demonstrated he would stand up for the entire

bill of rights. we can't pick and choose which parts the debate was and throwing things out. people are looking for somebody out there willing to stand up and defend the constitution and really believe isn't going to be another politician sort of going along, getting along. >> your guy is not just another politician. after the debate tonight, donald trump explained on "hannity" why he didn't make the pledge to not run as an i denpendent. >> if they don't treat me well, the establishment republicans, if they don't treat me well sean, why should i make the pledge? i may do it because i'm liking the accomplishment people rights and the group has been nice lately and you know at this moment it's great leverage and i might as well use it. this country should use leverage in trade deals. they don't believe in it. i knew that would be controversial but exciting and good way -- >> you're not afraid to just say i'm -- >> i'm not afraid.

>> but if you didn't win, you would hope you would be able to support the republican nomination. >> 100% correct. i just want to be treated well, be treated with respect. 100% correct. >> okay. >> steve, seeing the militants of donald trump, no justice, no peace. i mean that's what he's basically say. no justice, no peace, unless i get treated right, i'm going to war with you guys. >> this is the big story in the next few days we saw a couple weeks ago donald trump made the comment and the law of politics says you can't say what he said and get away with it. he did. we learned that law didn't apply apply. can you as a republican essentially go to war with fox news and survive because the coverage on fox, after this debate tonight has been absolutely brutal on donald trump. from the minute -- >> megyn i'm coming for you.

>> he went after march key personalities. >> i've been saying for days he's going to meet his waterloo with megyn kelly because you don't go to war with her because she is judge and juror. she looks at you -- >> he stayed on as i think you had that interview in the spin room afterwards. he said look she wasn't nice to me tonight. he didn't back off. he doubled down on it. >> and it's dangerous. if donald trump loses fox news then it is possible that will have a direct impact on his poll numbers. who knows? they have been teflon so far. >> donald, come over here to ms we would like you here occasionally. thanks for being with us. when we come back the other big story, john stewart, this was history tonight, all the heroes

letterman, they are all going. the final appearance on "the daily show," a really really brilliant show and this is "hardball," live in cleveland for the first republican debate.

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everyone loves the picture i posted of you. at&t reminds you it can wait. we're back from cleveland and the coverage tonight "the "huffington post", as the republicans bashed each other tonight, john stewart signed off from the daily show.

after an unbelievable 16 years he showed emotions a bit in his farewell tonight and here he is. >> i've been in show biz a long time and worked in a lot of atmospheres at varying levels of toxicity and this is the most beautiful place i've ever been. >> that's a common sentiment among guys like him and me. tomorrow night, watch our special on john stewart called john stewart has left the building and it area here on msnbc tomorrow night, friday night at 9:00 eastern. that is going to be a novel item for us all. howard you're with us. where are you, howard? there you are. you came in quietly. the big news he wouldn't guarantee he's running with the republican party. >> i'll end the night the way i began. this is not right now a debate between individuals, a debate between two ideas of politics. one of them is the politics that we're familiar with that you and

i have been covering forever. the other is anything goes parties don't matter traditions don't matter briefing books don't matter kind of politics and that's -- >> manners don't matter towards women. >> and manners don't matter, the less you have the better. >> carly fiorina -- >> the accuse tory tone don't mess with me altitude the paranoia and the legitimate fears. i mean trump may have stumbled tonight. i actually think that he stumbled a little more than you-all are giving him credit for discredit for doing. >> on the women's issue. >> on a lot and the fact that he's claiming not to be a politician, he was slipping and sliding around there on some explanations that made no sense that sounded very much like a

politic to me but when john kasich who we've rightly been praising here tonight also says listen to what donald trump is saying on for example fears about immigration, that in a way is giving trump credit. you used the phrase booster rocket before. >> they want -- >> that's how i see trump. >> howard i think howard hit on a good point which is that the longer trump stays in this and the more he veers toward actually becoming one of these politicians, the more dangerous territory he is in from the perspective of losing the people that he's attached to and i'm also wondering what is happening behind the scenes particularly with jeb bush one of my sources said trump was particularly different when they interacted independently. >> when ryan said he's going to

be okay trump is going to be okay. there is the mistaken impression they can domesticate this guy. when trump was on the stage, he was very nice behind the stage and after but during the debate he basically blamed the entire bush family for the modern failures of america. >> i think fox made news tonight. they made enemies inside the fight but boy, they got their headline in the first minute. anyway, let's take a look at some of the trump's most interesting moments from tonight's debate. >> i cannot say i have to respect the person that if it's not me the person that wins if i do win and i'm leading by quite a bit, that's what i want to do. i can totally page that pledge. >> you call women you don't like fat pigs dogs slobs and -- >> only rosey o'donald. >> the republican party has been fighting against the single-player system for a decade. you're on the wrong side if

you're still arguing. >> i don't think you heard me. you're having a hard time tonight. [ laughter ] >> well, i'll tell you what with hillary clinton i said be at my wedding and she came to my wedding. you know why? she had no choice because i gave. we have a president who doesn't have a clue. i would say he's incomplimentetent but i don't want to do that because that's not nice. >> the courses of the debate was surrounding us tonight because when somebody says you're hot air and hug the guy, you know and i go back to fiorina's comment, i don't know how you continue with the debate. i'm sorry, it's a conversation stopper. you go into a debate and all the moderator says, you're calling this person you're debating a liar. what do you do after that? stop listening or talking? >> here is the thing. picking up on what you say and

howard says two tracks here right? talk about the fiorina approach and trump approach. that's one. the more conventional approach that's the second track and what interests me on that the non-trump track tonight, i think there is two big stories, this was not a good night for jeb bush and a very good night for marco rubio, a quiet and good night because he's the most viable candidate outside trump, the most viable candidate -- >> okay i think kasich did well but you're right about him being the best tonight. our coverage continues from cleveland right after this.

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for the ages going on tonight, one whose ratings i have to admit will absolutely dwarf whatever we are able to do here tonight but, you know what? jon stewart's grand finale on "the daily show" after 16 years at the helm of the best news and politics satire show that our country has ever had, this grand finale he is doing later on tonight, this is not just a tv event for the ages, it's something that is a big, important moment for us as a country.