and likely another clinton. you can't say tonight that you can make that pledge. >> i cannot say. i have to respect the person if it's not me the person that wins. if i do win, and i'm leading by

quite a bit, that's what i want to do. i can totally make that pledge it i'm the nominee. i will pledge i will not run as an independent. i am discussing it with everybody, but i'm talking about a lot of leverage. we want to win. we will win. but i want to win as the republican. don't like fat pigs, dogs, slobs and disgusting animals. >> only rosy o'donnell. >> it was well beyond o'donnell. your twitter account has comments about women's looks. you once told a contestant it would be a pretty picture to see her on her knees. does that sound to you like at temperament of the man who is running our country. >> i think the big problem this

country has is being politically correct. and i don't frankly have time for total political correctness. what i say is what i say. and honestly, if you don't like it, i'm sorry. i've been very nice to you, although i could probably not be based on the way you have treated me, but i wouldn't do that.

11,000 people were laid off and people lost billions of dollars of investments. love him or hate him.

maybe none of the other candidates have said things on the lines of women. >> all i know is -- but they weren't even questions, but it doesn't marlt, i answered them well and i had a good time. and i got to know some of the folks i didn't know and they really are quality people. i think i have a lot of worthy opponents. i got to know some of them tonight and i think you have some really good people on that stage tonight. >> do you think you can beat

hillary clinton as an independent? >> definitely as an republican but independent is tougher. >> so he's given it some thought, this third party run, not just as an option. >> and they were saying it would be a death wish for him to go. he listed him in the same category of ross perot for example. >> robert do you think -- this is fascinating because we watched a two-hour debate is the news was made in the first minute. do you think there's a sense that fox has no roll? why would they feel they have the responsibility of cracking the whip of party discipline. they're just hosting the debate. they're not the party. is fox part of the republican

party? >> no, they're trying to provoke. i thought they were going to ask about the clinton call or the independent bid. you knew those were coming up. >> if you have to look at a poll and predict the next series of polls because you know we do bunches of five will he go up or down? >> i think he goes up. not another meteoric rise. >> i think that's clear -- a lot of these early polls are polling people who are paying the closest attention and a lot of them are the ones most jazzed up

by trump. and did they receive that same way those activists doand did they get behind him and feel angry and energized or is it a broader audience who says i want somebody who has experience potentially being a commander and chief? >> the fact we're now focusing on four bankruptcies, the fact we're talk ugabout trash talk about women in the past. did fox do a service to journalism by opening up those doors? >> it's only going to continue. who else had the same amount of energy and the same amount of crowd response on that stage? if you want to beat him,ia need to get attention and buzz. he had stumble but still came out as the king. >> i think a couple people bettered themselves tonight.

among them kasich and he had the crowd on his side. and second of all, he stood out on that stage more than i think many of the others. and that's what he needs to be doing right now. >> let's take a look at him. your ohio governor, john kasich. let's listen to his assessment. >> i was just saying to chris christie, they say we're out spoken, we need to take lessons from donald trump. he's hitting a nerve in his country, he is. people are they are fed up. they don't think the government is working for them. and for people that want to just tune him out, they are making a mistake. mr. trump is touching a nerve because people want the wall to be built. they want to see an end to illegal immigration but we all have different ways of getting there and you'll hear from all of us tonight about what our ideas are. >> well, there he is giving him credit for being the booster rocket for the conservative

issues. maybe doesn't have the right solution with the wall but raised the issue of illegal immigration. >> i think casey nailed it. kasich sneaks into this debate tenth spot goes right for trump's coalition. embraces the donald. says i'm your kind of guy. i'm a combative working class ohio governor. he thinks if trump fizzles out. >> who else is playing that card? >> cruise but he didn't really play it. >> not as much as kasich. >> they are all buying tickets on the trump express hoping the trump won't make it. >> you know, trump did a couple things to help himself tonight. despite maybe there were a couple stumbles but one thing he did for example was when fox went after him, he hit back. he didn't sort of accept the premise of their questioning and didn't apologize. he hit back. either a certain amount of -- >> what about when he goes like this to megyn, it may get tougher for you? >> i don't know new york hand

signals. >> what's that mean a little tougher for you? >> well, you heard him double down on that. i asked him about whether he was essentially saying no one else got asked questions like this on that stage to which i asked, well, has anyone else made comments like this and he said everybody i talked to says that the question was unfair. >> really? >> so he's going after megyn kelly and doubling down. >> how many people has he talked to since the program ended? >> many people. >> huge. >> you're all sticking with me. we'll get reaction, john kasich and this is "hardball" live coverage of the republican debate live from cleveland.

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welcome back to "hardball" live in the streets of cleveland with interesting people joining us in the streets. anyway, we've been watching the first debate. who came up on top and got the best punches and who was hillary clinton watching tonight and perhaps fearing? that's a strong word. joining me now is former united states senator from new hampshire john who is a big banker of john kasich. here is the governor of ohio talking about same-sex marriage tonight. >> because somebody doesn't think the way i do, doesn't mean that i can't care about them or can't love them. so if one of my daughters happened to be that, of course i would love them and i would accept them. issues like that are planted to divide us. i've been saying all along, we need to give everybody a chance, treat everybody with respect and let them share in this great

american dream. god gives me unconditional love, i'm going to give it to my family and friends and people around me. >> you know, that is an amazing appeal of compassion that reminds me of bobby kennedy, part irish cop and guy that talked like that and cared like that. will that work in the republican party today when there is so much anger and bitterness? >> absolutely. the power of the answer and many of john kasich's answers tonight is that it was the truth. he just talked about what he had done as a congressman, what he had done in ohio and drives and motivates him and his vision and when you talk about those things, passionately and from experience, leadership qualities come through. i mean, they see that you're poised and presidential so you don't have to say i'm a leader or presidential. it comes through in the passion and the clarity with which we answer questions and that's why john kasich did so well tonight. >> is the there a cloth coat

republican party? >> that's like two generations ago. i'm not sure what that means. >> it means is guys -- >> there is republican party. >> republicans, regan democrats that want someone who has experience that's tough that's honest that will tell somebody i don't agree with you and in that question, he was saying, i don't necessarily agree with everyone on this but that won't stop me from being a visionary and inclusive president. >> you got two message centers tonight, one guy that grew up in pretty low economic circumstances and a couple of them like that and the bragger out there saying i'm rich as hell and say what i want about women and you're going to for me because you look up to a guy like me. the guy that worked his way up to being a good governor or making $10 billion. >> they are choosing a candidate for the presidency of the united states and that requires

discipline and vision and leadership and not rhetoric, not attention getting, not reality tv. i don't think donald trump helped him tonight but we'll see. >> when do the lines trump, when do trump's lines start to go down? >> some think donald trump's numbers go up. they may. at the end of the day, republican primary voters want somebody that doesn't need on the job training and ready for the role and that's one of john kasich's strengths. >> i think the x factor senator is something that my colleague bob costa said, republicans that don't like to party and don't like politics and politicians. it's not just republicans. just fed up with the political system and the way it functions or fails to function. >> sure. those voters were there for pat buchanan and ross. it doesn't mean it can't be done

but people that speak with consecutive vision as john kasich has has governed with conservative principles but conclusively, that's the candidate that's been successful in previous republican primaries but also republicans that get elected president. >> i certainly do agree that john kasich cemented himself as part of the conversation, a real part of the conservation. >> he just squeaked into this conversation, let's not forget. let's look at this response from jeb bush who is sort of near the top but not very exciting to a question about iraq. apparently he bobbled the this one. let's take a watch. >> knowing what we know now with faulty intelligence and not having security be the first priority when we invaded, it was a mistake. here is the lesson that we should take from this which relates to the subject, barack

obama became president obama and he abandoned iraqi. he left, isis was created because of the void that we left and that void exists the size of indiana to honor the people that died, we need to stop the iran agreement for sure because the iranians have their blood on their hands and we need to take out isis with every tool. >> i don't know how you can keep talking with that with the evidence that runs against him. there was never any evidence they had nuclear weapons and dick cheney said there were. it wasn't just mistakes of intelligence of intelligence they had new clear weapons and that's why we had to go to war and we break up iraq is a fact and the reason there isn't isis is we broke up iraq and with the shia in charge. these are the facts.

the idea that we should have stayed there forever and avoided the problem the that we created seems to be contradictory. your thoughts about this because so sad to listen to a loyal brother cover for his brother. >> that's what he's doing. he reached this position after that long, long week of fumbling around and trying not to say it was based on what we know now. you know, i think -- >> we didn't know it then. >> is the correct version. we should have known. >> this under scores the narrative we had going into this debate. you have trump grabbing the headlines and jeb bush struggling to show in these kinds of settings that he is the front runner and while maybe his pocketbook is huge and we haven't gotten to the advertising stage, by the way, i'm wondering when mike murphy will air super pact adds on his behalf and maybe the campaign is wondering that, as well.

>> can you do biography ads of a guy everybody knows? somebody they are board with? >> this is his chance to introduce himself as something other than just bush and not convinced he pulled it off. >> i got to say at the republican watch party where i watched the debate, there was no passion for jeb bush. you did not see, you saw flashes of passion for most of the other candidates in someway, shape or form. i got to say, i didn't see that for jeb bush. >> he learned a lot tonight. >> this is a sample -- >> that's the dog that didn't bark tonight. the excitement for jeb bush. >> it may park in the coming weeks. >> for jeb? >> yeah. >> for all the candidates, you can't form get the early debates are about introducing yourself even if you're well-known. what's your vision and leadership and experience do you have and temperament? are you presidential and you can't assume that the voters

know who you are and some of the candidates did better at that tonight and some didn't. >> your guy did great. >> he did. kasich did well. everyone in the panel thought so. thank you for joining us tonight here on behalf of john kasich, our coverage from cleveland continues in a minute and later, john stewart's grand finally. we'll show you that if you weren't watching that station and this is "hardball" on msnbc, the place for politics. ross perot, ross perot.

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certainly, i think going third party is a death wish. i don't think that's any secret at all. i don't see that happening. you win an election against hillary clinton unless you're running as a republican. donald trump gets that and so we do, too. i've had great conversations with him and that at each step of the way, he's getting more and more comfortable in his process. i'm just telling you my own personal opinion experience in working here with donald trump. i think things will be just fine. >> welcome back to "hardball." that's chairman of the republican national committee talking about donald trump tonight in the debate spin room. joining me is engagement chair nina turner and casey and gene are we me. what's an engagement chair?

what's an engagement chair? >> out reach. >> right. >> let's talk about this may not square with your partisan views, which i love to not square with sometimes, i don't mind fighting. i think kasich did well tonight. i've seen governors of other states in the democrat or republican and seems like a better governor. >> chris, it might surprise you i think the governor did, too, and i warned my democratic colleagues not to sleep on governor kasich. he is from the great state of ohio, great swing state and won in 2014 overwhelmingly with help from the democrats. >> won with 60 points. >> yes. >> let me ask you about what wasn't talked. i'm proud of the fact on this show "hardball" and other shows on msnbc we talk about denial of voter rights. >> yes. >> almost every week because it seems to be an american value. if you're losing the campaign

because of demographics, you don't start preventing people from voting. traditional african american ways of voting and just saying let's tighten that up a little bit. >> yes. >> states like pennsylvania that openly said this is how they win elections for republicans. how about here in ohio? it never came up tonight in the two-hour debate. >> this is the 50 -- well, past midnight but the 50-year anniversary of the voting rights act and none of the commentators had the courage to ask the candidates where they stood on voting rights and the republicans had the pure gull to send out a tweet saying they want to give it to sacrifice and the way to do that is increase supporting. sometimes my republican colleagues subscribe to if we can't beat them, we cheat them and we redistrict in a way the voter doesn't get to choose those running for office and

then through trying to suppress the vote. >> gene, hard to sell young people on the fak but you know it's a fact when voting rights and civil rights passed, the republicans voted almost to the last man. >> absolutely. >> only a hand full opposed. >> the republicans never would have passed because of southern democrats. never would have gotten through. i grew up in southern california. very personal lease of legislation to say the least. this happens whether today or yesterday, appeals court struck down the texas voter id law of republican passed and promoted and because it curtails voting rights and violates the voting rights or what is left of it. >> so it just bothered me again tonight when i see how the republican parties are passing through the night. hillary clinton will talk about child development, education, all the things parents, mothers

care about and republicans didn't get to any of that stuff tonight. >> really? >> as if they don't have kids, they don't have families. i mean, those issues become democratic and tonight, a lot more talk about republican stuff, security particularly. >> one thing i would watch for as we heads towards the general election is the question megyn kelly asked scott walker. she talked about the life of an unborn child to the life of a mother and opposed abortion. >> not health but life. >> and life. and that could, i think, carry through in the event walker is the nominee, something you can hear in the general election. >> is there any hospital, by the way, catholic or not, mormon or not that honors that better the child than the mother? i never heard of that. i never heard of that protocol. does that exist? >> whether walker makes it or not and i agree but the disdain shown for women in general,

everybody has a mother. you know, some woman that you love and to just blanketly say you don't care and treating women as carriers and that's it. >> it was worse than that. >> his glossary of words choice is like dog, i don't want to get through them all but megyn mentioned a lot. he did look for donald trump embarrassed while she was reading particulars. he was almost blanching, almost. >> but the audience clapped, some folks at the audience clapped at that. that to me shows a problem that sexism is still okay. >> in part that was the dynamic and part it was the dynamic of the megyn going after trump and trump hitting back and some of the applause i heard more for the hitting back, i hope. >> well i would hope, too. i'm not so sure. >> i'm being optimistic.

>> this is tricky because it's always a winning issue for the republicans to go after the media and so many moments in the debates in the past where a candidate has gone after the moderator and succeeded. fox news doing it, a woman, megyn kelly, she's shown a willingness to get these -- >> ironically tomorrow there may be democratic ad writers calling out roger, can we use, can we have rights to use megyn kelly going after trump and his reponce? >> really. >> that would be fascinating. >> thank you. good luck in politics. thanks for being with us and gene robinson and casey will stick with us as live coverage from cleveland continues after this.

welcome back. i have to tell you, beautiful night. if you stay out all night, stay out all night in this weather in cleveland. this is like san francisco weather out here tonight. about 72 degrees and no apparent humidity. the debate, how it will affect the polls. it always will. there is no question donald trump will remain the center of attention. look at the stories for tomorrow. every paper will lead with what he said. i won't guarantee i'll run with the republicans. rand paul was the most aggressive in attacking trump. here is how paul went after him when trump said he wouldn't rule out an independent bit for the white house. >> he buys and sells politicians of all stripes.

look, look, he's already hedging his bet on the clintons, okay? so if he doesn't run as a republican, maybe he supports clinton or maybe runs as an independent but i'd say that he's already hedging his bets because he's used to buying politicians. >> well, i've given you plenty of money. >> we're going to move on. you're not going to make the pledge tonight. >> i will not make the pledge at this time. >> okay. >> rand paul's campaign manger and steve always in short sleeves. anyway, was this a connect or did you guys plannerly on you would take on the donald? right out of the bat you went after him. >> well, i think senator paul won the debate in the first two minutes when he was the only candidate willing to hold trump accountable for saying i would run as a third party and hand the white house to hillary

clinton. that is what it will take to beat the clintons. >> is it possible to get into a tangle with donald trump who seems to own the home court advantage on television to get a mano el mano? >> senator paul was aggressive and got the point across and people responded. i think that exchange demonstrated the ability to be articulate and do it against trump who thrives in the situations. >> what do you make of this steve? i thought paul was good at doing what he does which is defend the values against the security state. in a republican fight, it goes back to ron paul again. it goes back to that 9/11, say 9/11 and immediately you win the security argument. i knew people that were killed. that sentiment, which is fair enough, of course, just drives the audience and the audience goes.

they don't think in terms of who is in my pocket and who is in my computer house. >> that was the other big squabble of the night. donald trump and you also had rand paul and chris christie and paul and christi both helped themselves. we talked about rand paul falling out of the news. this was a chance for him to reclaim turf in the fight, picking the battle with chris christie and said going in, chris christie was looking for a moment where the republican party fell in love with. the guy -- >> the bully. >> he got a chance to mix it up with rand paul. >> what about high schoolish? when one guy says you were out there hugging obama and the other guy said you're nothing but hot air. sounded like a high school argument. >> when you get into an argument with chris christie, you never know which way it will go. at the same time, this is a

place where you know, christi is speaking from a depth of personal experience on the 9/11 issue in a way that some of these other candidates are not. to be able to say look i've gone to the fight support and tried to get warrants and that's in part why -- >> he got personal and went after your candidate and half hour putting him on the web. >> yeah, i think senator paul again, it was not backing down and being bold and demonstrated he would stand up for the entire bill of rights. we can't pick and choose which parts the debate was and throwing things out. people are looking for somebody out there willing to stand up and defend the constitution and really believe isn't going to be another politician sort of going along, getting along. >> your guy is not just another politician. after the debate tonight, donald trump explained on "hannity" why he didn't make the pledge to not run as an i dependent. >> if they don't treat me well, the establishment republicans,

if they don't treat me well, sean, why should i make the pledge? i may do it because i'm liking the accomplishment people rights and the group has been nice lately and, you know, at this moment it's great leverage and i might as well use it. this country should use leverage in trade deals. they don't believe in it. i knew that would be controversial but exciting and good way -- >> you're not afraid to just say i'm -- >> i'm not afraid. >> but if you didn't win, you would hope you would be able to support the republican nomination. >> 100% correct. i just want to be treated well, be treated with respect. 100% correct. >> okay. >> steve, seeing the militants of donald trump, no justice, no peace. i mean, that's what he's basically say. no justice, no peace, unless i get treated right, i'm going to war with you guys. >> this is the big story in the next few days, we saw a couple

weeks ago donald trump made the comment and the law of politics says you can't say what he said and get away with it. he did. we learned that law didn't apply. can you as a republican essentially go to war with fox news and survive because the coverage on fox, after this debate tonight has been absolutely brutal on donald trump. from the minute -- >> megyn i'm coming for you. >> he went after march key personalities. >> i've been saying for days he's going to meet his waterloo with megyn kelly because you don't go to war with her because she is judge and juror. she looks at you -- >> he stayed on as i think you had that interview in the spin room afterwards. he said look, she wasn't nice to me tonight. he didn't back off. he doubled down on it. >> and it's dangerous.

if donald trump loses fox news, then it is possible that will have a direct impact on his poll numbers. who knows? they have been teflon so far. >> donald, come over here to ms, we would like you here occasionally. thanks for being with us. when we come back, the other big story, john stewart, this was history tonight, all the heroes, letterman, they are all going. the final appearance on "the daily show," a really, really brilliant show and this is "hardball," live in cleveland for the first republican debate.

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so you move to a healthier mouth from day one. we're back from cleveland and the coverage, tonight "the "huffington post", as the republicans bashed each other tonight, john stewart signed off from the daily show. after an unbelievable 16 years he showed emotions a bit in his farewell tonight and here he is. >> i've been in show biz a long time and worked in a lot of atmospheres at varying levels of toxicity and this is the most beautiful place i've ever been. >> that's a common sentiment among guys like him and me. tomorrow night, watch our special on john stewart called john stewart has left the building and it area here on

msnbc tomorrow night, friday night at 9:00 eastern. that is going to be a novel item for us all. howard, you're with us. where are you, howard? there you are. you came in quietly. the big news he wouldn't guarantee he's running with the republican party. >> i'll end the night the way i began. this is not right now a debate between individuals, a debate between two ideas of politics. one of them is the politics that we're familiar with that you and i have been covering forever. the other is anything goes, parties don't matter, traditions don't matter, briefing books don't matter kind of politics and that's -- >> manners don't matter towards women. >> and manners don't matter, the less you have the better. >> carly fiorina -- >> the accuse tory tone, don't mess with me altitude, the

paranoia and the legitimate fears. i mean, trump may have stumbled tonight. i actually think that he stumbled a little more than you-all are giving him credit for discredit for doing. >> on the women's issue. >> on a lot and the fact that he's claiming not to be a politician, he was slipping and sliding around there on some explanations that made no sense that sounded very much like a politic to me but when john kasich, who we've rightly been praising here tonight also says listen to what donald trump is saying on for example fears about immigration, that in a way is giving trump credit. you used the phrase booster rocket before. >> they want -- >> that's how i see trump. >> howard, i think howard hit on a good point which is that the longer trump stays in this and the more he veers toward actually becoming one of these politicians, the more dangerous

territory he is in from the perspective of losing the people that he's attached to and i'm also wondering what is happening behind the scenes particularly with jeb bush, one of my sources said trump was particularly different when they interacted independently. >> when ryan said he's going to be okay, trump is going to be okay. there is the mistaken impression they can domesticate this guy. when trump was on the stage, he was very nice behind the stage and after but during the debate, he basically blamed the entire bush family for the modern failures of america. >> i think fox made news tonight. they made enemies inside the fight but boy, they got their headline in the first minute. anyway, let's take a look at some of the trump's most interesting moments from tonight's debate.

>> i cannot say i have to respect the person that if it's not me, the person that wins, if i do win and i'm leading by quite a bit, that's what i want to do. i can totally page that pledge. >> you call women you don't like fat pigs, dogs, slobs and -- >> only rosey o'donald. >> the republican party has been fighting against the single-player system for a decade. you're on the wrong side if you're still arguing. >> i don't think you heard me. you're having a hard time tonight. [ laughter ] >> well, i'll tell you what, with hillary clinton i said be at my wedding and she came to my wedding. you know why? she had no choice because i gave. we have a president who doesn't have a clue. i would say he's incompetent but i don't want to do that because that's not nice. >> the courses of the debate was surrounding us tonight because when somebody says you're hot

air and hug the guy, you know, and i go back to fiorina's comment, i don't know how you continue with the debate. i'm sorry, it's a conversation stopper. you go into a debate and all the moderator says, you're calling this person you're debating a liar. what do you do after that? stop listening or talking? >> here is the thing. picking up on what you say and howard says, two tracks here, right? talk about the fiorina approach and trump approach. that's one. the more conventional approach that's the second track and what interests me on that, the non-trump track tonight, i think there is two big stories, this was not a good night for jeb bush and a very good night for marco rubio, a quiet and good night because he's the most viable candidate outside trump, the most viable candidate -- >> okay, i think kasich did well but you're right about him being the best tonight. our coverage continues from cleveland right after this.

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thank you howard, my friend, casey and steve, my great surrogate, "hardball" for tonight. good night from cleveland.

have watched that first hour of debate and i'd like to start by getting their halftime estimates have watched that first hour of debate and i'd like to start by getting their halftime estimates of who is doing well. let's begin with chuck todd, moderator of "meet the press." what do you think? >> it was interesting that the moderators put trump on the defensive right from the start. that opening question about do you pledge to stay in the republican party. >> it was the most efficient way of doing it. i want in anyone in the stage to