right? >> attack hillary clinton and the men? >> of course, sure. >> i'll leave it there. we'll be back next week. gosh, who knows what will happen in the next seven days. but if it's sunday, it's meet the press.

in the halls of justice, they have seen it all. >> i thought this is the one that is going to run. >> from the unbelievable. >> just down on all fours to scramble away. >> to the shocking. >> oh, my god. >> courtroom deputies caught by surprise. >> he swung his body away, making contact to my face. >> victims' families lashing out. >> i said the hell with it i tried to reach him. >> even judges pushed too far. >> you shut your damn mouth, sir. >> action that literally rocks the courtroom. i'm contessa brewer. welcome to "caught on camera." the courtroom has been a police

for high drama. it is the suspenseful, long-awaited scene in so many movies, novels and television shows you about this next hour is not about the fictional courtroom, it's about the real one, whether it is a victim's family coming face-to-face with a family who threatened a beloved family member, a suspect who grabs a deputy's gun to or a man who tries to escape. you will witness reactions that aren't scripted or rehearsed. chaos erupts in an ohio courtroom. >> i was shocked. i couldn't believe this was happen-ing right in front of me. chaos erupts in an ohio courtroom. >> it's november 16th, 2006, warren, ohio, a small town, two hours northeast of columbus. 24-year-old jason howard is about to be charged with aggravated murder for killing a man and shooting at two others. but it's the family of a victim in another murder case that suddenly charges into the courtroom in a raw and emotional outburst.

five months earlier, howard's ex-girlfriend, jamiel west and her three children are found dead in their columbus home. howard is not charged with the crime, but the west family believe he is responsible. this was very unique. >> i've been in courtroom where is somebody in the back of the courtroom would jump up and start screaming for a few seconds, but nothing quite like this. >> nick rich and reporter peggy sinkovich cover the trumbull county court. they arrive early for the hearing, hoping to talk to jason howard. >> he was here in warren, ohio, on a murder charge, but police in columbus were also looking at him on a murder charge there with his girlfriend and children, who are from this area. so it was a pretty big case. >> sinkovich interviews the suspect who says he's incident in the murder of jameila west and her children. >> i was a protector and provider for my family, but i

wasn't there to protect them and die with them. and i wish i was. to be honest with you, i would rather be dead right now. >> we finished the interview. nick turns his camera off, and i'm real happy, texting my news director, saying i got a good story. and two seconds later, those doors come open and a huge brawl breaks out. >> jamiela west's brother, louis, reaches across the divider and punches howard brutally. handcuffed and chained around the waist, he's completely vulnerable and can't defend himself. >> i grabbed the chains that he had and pulled him back. >> the deputy slams lewis west against the wall, trying to get the situation under control. suddenly, jameila west's cousin bolts in and hurdles the railing and belts howard. >> it seemed like it was going on forever, and i was like, is anybody coming in? >> a deputy is not far behind and is able to restrain the cousin.

jim lewis is howard's attorney. >> and i tried to pick up a chair to distract him so he wouldn't punch him and maybe a deputy could grab ahold of him. >> sit down, right now! >> absolute chaos. nobody was going to listen to anybody. had to use brute force to take control of what was going on. >> when it's over, jason howard slouches in a jury seat, speechless. the brother and cousin of jameila west are arrested and later convicted of misdemeanor assault. jamiela's mother is convicted of inciting violence. they are all given fines of up to $1,000 and up to two years probation. after family members are escorted out, prosecutor chris becker, who's running late, enters the courtroom. the mood is still tense. >> there were still hearts beating and, you know, blood racing and your emotions are really running high at that point. you know, i felt a little uneasy coming into the courtroom. >> for reporter peggy sinkovich, it's not quite the story she

expected to file for the 5:00 news. >> here i thought i had a good story and i ended up with a great story. >> despite the violent fight, no one, not even jason howard, is seriously injured. howard's hearing is rescheduled. he's later convicted of aggravated murder, attempted murder and aggravated kidnapping. he receives a life sentence with a chance of parole after 44 years. >> i think the acts that he's done and what he's in prison for are despicable and he's obviously serving, hopefully, the rest of his life in prison. and he certainly was entitled to the rights and benefits that any defendant's entitled to, including being protected here in the courtroom. >> howard hasn't been charged for the murder of jameila west and her three children. in fact, no one has. the case is still open and howard remains the only person of interest. in another courtroom, a family member, this time a father, loses control when he comes face to face with the man who threatens his daughter in a terrifying home invasion.

>> i was upset. i was ticked off. he just sat there, calm, like it's no big deal. you know, he had that smug look on his face. and i went after him. >> spectators are quickly escorted out of the courtroom in dudley, massachusetts. court officers tackle the 50-year-old dad, clifford margalia, keeping him away from the suspect, deric allen. according to police reports, on december 16th, 2006 at 2:00 a.m., allen breaks a window to get into the house. >> i was scared, i didn't know what to do. and i had my child in the house, so -- and she was away from me. >> 21-year-old melissa margalia sees it on her baby monitor and makes a desperately 911 call.

>> help, somebody's in my house. i have a baby downstairs. >> we got a child downstairs and she's upstairs. >> the intruder reaches melissa's bedroom as she continues on the phone. >> they're going up the stairs. melissa, stay on the line with me, okay? do you hear police? [ screaming ] >> you got to get in there! >> police! >> get off that bed! get off that bed right now! >> he has a knife! >> police catch deric allen. melissa and her baby daughter are both safe. >> she could have been killed. i mean, without question. if she didn't stay on that phone, absolutely, she could have been killed. >> when melissa's dad first hears the 911 call, he's

overwhelmed with emotion. >> i've never heard anything like that in my life. i picture her laying on that bed, with this maniac on top of her. you can only assume what might have been happened, but it wasn't going to be anything good. >> in the courtroom, margalia says allen appears to have no remorse, and hearing his daughter's voice on that heart-wrenching 911 call again is too much. >> i just said, the hell with it. and i tried to reach him. and unfortunately, i didn't. i came within probably a foot or so, and got tackled by this middle linebacker bailiff there. he hit me around the waist and i fell to the ground and he was on top of me. so, i could picture myself really doing some serious harm to him, so maybe it's a blessing i didn't. >> in 2008, deric allen is found guilty of armed burglary and assault and battery. he's sentenced to 10 to 13 years in prison.

for his courtroom outburst, margalia is convicted of disorderly conduct and gets one year probation. he says his anger spilled over that day and still does when he thinks of how much he loves his daughter and what could have happened to her that dreadful night. >> i have no regrets whatsoever. the reality is, she could have been killed. if you don't look after your kids, what's the point? you know, my wife and i live for our kids. that's what we do. give me a hug. you did a good job today. coming up, a defendant flees. and a scene that shocks the courtroom, when "caught on camera: chaos in the court" continues.

in the blink of an eye, a defendant bolts out of an oregon courtroom. >> it all happened lightning quick. you know, the adrenaline's

running. >> multnomah county courthouse in portland, oregon. it's april 23rd, 2007. 23-year-old wayne michael trent is in court, charged with stealing a police i.d. and impersonating a cop. travis sewell is the deputy district attorney in the courtroom who requests that trent be put into custody. >> the reason somebody would go into custody is if we deemed them a danger to the community or a flight risk, not to show up to court again. >> it turns out that posing as a police officer is nothing new for the defendant. in 2001, wayne trent, then wayne skein, breaks into the multnomah county sheriff's office. he takes a uniform, badge and cop car. trent is convicted of burglary and criminal impersonation, but the judge deems him insane and trent is taken to an oregon hospital for treatment. two years later, doctors release him. in 2007, trent is back in court and he's got one trick left up his sleeve. just as the judge orders trent

into custody on $250,000 bail, he makes a run for it. >> he put his hands behind his back like he was going to comply, and then he took a short glance at the door and that split second, i thought, this is the one that's going to run. >> a local tv station's camera catches deputy nicole morrissey o'donald immediately chasing after trent as he runs down the steps. >> my thought was, if he were able to get down the stairs, there might be possible weapons that he could access at the bottom of the stairs. >> the deputy steadily fires her taser gun at trent, who's about 20 yards away. he doesn't get very far. >> he stayed on the stairway. i got on my radio and called for assistance. about four deputies came down the stairs and we handcuffed him. >> the taser gun is what stops trent in his class. >> we just had taser recertification class two days before.

so, all the training was fresh in my mind. >> after 13 years at the multnomah county sheriff's office, this is the first time morrissey o'donald uses any of the weapons on her belt. >> he didn't say anything. when we walked him back to the courtroom, he was completely silent. >> the judge orders him into custody, again. he increases trent's bail $500,000. >> under oregon law, what mr. trent did after he knew he was going into custody is no different than if he would have tried to escape from the oregon state pen. >> trent is convicted of possession of a false police officer i.d. card and is sentenced to probation. but for his bold escape, he gets ten months in the slammer. >> he might not have gone to prison but for the fact he tried to run from the courtroom. i think it just goes to show people that you need to follow authority and you need to show respect to the court. and when you don't do that, you can end up with a harsher sentence than what you were

originally charged with. and from a bolt to a jolt. an earthquake rocks the judge penny show right in the middle of its taping. >> everybody relax, stay calm. >> all of a sudden, there was a rumble. you hear the stage manager say, "earthquake, get under the desk." >> july 29th, 2008. in los angeles, a magnitude 5.4 earthquake shakes one of the first tapings of a new courtroom television show called "family court with judge penny." >> i'm judge penny brown reynolds, and in my court, family comes first. >> it started as a totally normal day, yeah. for that taping, we had the gallery filled. >> stephanie draskovich, cofounder of 44 blue productions, is one of the show's executive producers. the tape is rolling and the case is well under way. >> i can still do for the children as though i, you know, planned on. he paid approximately -- >> as the courtroom floor vibrates, judge penny doesn't know what to think, but she tries to keep her exposure.

>> i said to the director, "did the cameras just move"? and he said, "yeah, i think something else is going on." >> there was a banging sound, like something fell and we realized it was an earthquake. >> everybody relax! stay calm. >> judge penny ducks under the bench. the litigants crouch under their tables and others in the courtroom calmly take cover under desks and chairs. >> it's okay, everyone. get under the desks. >> get under. >> a few seconds later, the trembling ends. >> let's start over. >> fortunately, there's no major damage and no one's hurt, just a lot of jolted nerves. now, order is back in the courtroom and judge penny returns with a sense of humor. >> well, i'm shaking things up in hollywood, huh! >> she became known as the earthquake judge, and you know, it's something we never could have planned, probably never would have asked for.

i think we can all look back and get a good laugh out of it. coming up, a defendant mouths off to a judge. >> you shut your damned mouth, sir. >> i'm not going to shut my mouth. plus, a shootout outside the courthouse when "caught on camera: chaos in the court" continues.

you shut your damned mouth, sir.

>> a judge is set off by a disrespectful defendant and the drama escalates as the two face off in the courtroom. >> mr. hastings, don't press your luck with me, son. don't -- >> or what? >> don't press your luck -- >> or what? you going to sentence me? is that what you're going to do? >> it's march 2nd, 2009, in vancouver, washington. and 30-year-old matthew hastings is in court, about to be sentenced for attempted murder. the prosecution is seeking 120 years. and apparently, hastings feels, at this point, he's got little left to lose. >> i don't really care -- >> you shut your damned mouth, sir. >> i'm not going to to shut my mouth. >> it was a high-profile trial. here, he had shot and almost killed a police officer. >> in early 2009, hastings is convicted of six counts of attempted homicide and possession of firearms. charles buckley is his defense attorney. >> he suffers from a number of mental issues. therefore, combining his mental

health issues with the pressure of being sentenced, he clearly was on edge. >> and things were about to set him off even more. hastings sees several deputies from the scene of his crime in the courtroom. >> mr. hastings was very uptight that there were so many officers in the courtroom that had been involved, which didn't help his mood any. >> it all begins when judge john wulle, known to discuss his rulings with the defendants, starts with a question. >> did you finish high school? >> no. >> buckley says hastings doesn't appreciate the history lesson and makes a face at the judge. >> next time, im going to have you gagged. >> you're going to have me gagged, huh? >> you're right, i am. to me, it was totally alien to everything i know happens in a court of law. i have never seen that kind of conduct in a court of law. >> defense attorney buckley sees

where this is going and tries to stop it. >> your honor, i would ask that -- >> mr. hastings is in contempt of court at this point, counselor, and i don't think anyone would disagree with me. >> suddenly, the judge calls far -- for a recess. >> can i see the attorneys back in chambers? i took a break to let me cool off, because i wanted to keep it on a professional level. >> now in the courtroom, it's a staring game between hastings and the deputies, but it doesn't stay silent for long. >> you're a failure. >> several court security officers move in around him in case he gets physical. >> then, judge wulle and the attorneys return, hoping to resume the proceedings more calmly. >> i would like to speak to the audience for just one second, please, and apologize to you. it's very rare that i lose my temper in court and use a word that i probably do not even use at home. so, i apologize to you for the use of the word "damned."

>> then the judge showed his disapproval and begins his ruling again. when you showed me your total disrespect for me as a person, for this court, for this nation, for everyone involved in the process, i see no reason to not stick with the decision i made. >> absolutely. i'm thankful for that, your honor. that's great. >> you're wasting your time with me now, mr. hastings. i know how to handle a guy like you. the only thing i can say to you on behalf of all the citizens of this community, bye-bye. >> thank you. that's great. is that it? two words? bye-bye. come on, you're smarter than that, your honor. >> trying to push my buttons, son? >> no, i'm not. >> but hastings clearly is. >> we have kids like you in my neighborhood when i was growing up and we know how to take care of you, but these police officers have been told by me that they're not to react. mr. buckley, do you want me to -- >> is that what you want? >> mr. hastings -- >> put mr. hastings back in his chair until we are concluded. >> or?

>> hold on until i'm done -- >> i thought you said they weren't supposed to react? >> sit down! >> judge wulle warns hastings his behavior won't help him later. >> you're really hurting your case in front of the court of appeals. they're going see your record, they're going to see how you're running your mouth, your honor. bye-bye, we know how to handle kids like you, son? okay, yeah, they're going to see that too. remember, you're on record, just like me, pops. >> finally, the judge gets in the last word, sentencing hastings to the maximum, 120 years in prison. >> all right, thank you, gentleman. in my world, i deal with nothing but ugly features of the human personality. i have to find ways to not let that affect the work i'm doing, so i can provide the next person coming into the courtroom with a fair environment. coming up, a lawyer is shot. a defendant goes for a gun.

and there are cries of shock and horror in the courtroom, when "caught on camera: chaos in the court" continues.

unarmed teen shot by a white police officer. we are expecting a call, and when they come to the mmpbs, we'll bring that to you live. stay with us for breaking news coverage. welcome back to "caught on camera."

i'm contessa brewer. so far we've seen brawls, escapes and even earthquakes shaking up the courtroom. but this next struggle happens not inside, but outside the courtroom. a man approaches an attorney as he's leaving and asks a simple question, then he opens fire. in one of the most unbelievable scenes ever caught on camera, a man is shot at point-blank range and ducks behind a slender tree as bullets fly. it's halloween, october 31st, 2003. reporters are outside the van nuys courthouse to cover a hearing in the murder trial of actor robert blake. but the real drama caught on camera that day is this. >> i just went down on all fours to try to scramble away from him. i knew something bad had happened, i didn't know exactly what it was. >> 53-year-old los angeles attorney gerald curry is leaving the courthouse after attending a hearing about a medical trust fund case. a heavyset man wearing glasses

confronts him and asks if he is mr. curry. >> and i said, "yes, who are you?" i just remember an incredibly it's a tragedy for the man who was shot. it's a tragedy for his family, and it's a tragedy for the officers involved in this. this evening, we had reports of lo looting, so we had a situation where a couple businesses had been broken into, in fact, one business, they went into, they took a cash register out, dumped it in the street, and we had really no presence down there at the time other than patrols. we had two state cars, two county car, and two ferg son

cars in the corridor. they ran from time to time into congestion with pedestrianed through there, but we tried to keep up patrol to provide security for the businesses. when the damage to the property and burglaries occurred, we deployed a system, which in this case, would have been five cars together, it was raining, we were hoping just to keep the officers inside the cars, staggered probably every 35 yards, but just for a couple blocks, just right there where the corridor is and where everything seems to be happening in ferguson and canfield and do that on both sides. we accomplished that on the east side of it, and we were able to lock that down pretty tight, but on the west side, a lot of people were lingering at that point. several of you were there at the time, i'm sure. we decided to bring more cars in to make sure we could do the same system on the west. we brought cars in from the north to the south, but when

they got in front of sam's market, they were hit with bricks and bottles and a few things like that so turned around and staged to the north because it did not look like it was going to be do able. chief anderson brought cars in from the south that would have their red lights and sirens on in effort to see if this would move the crowd. the problem was when that happened, the crowd took off towards the police cars and it did not really have the intended effect, so we ened up kind of being in a stalemate there in ferguson, and i only say all of this because the people that were there at the time in front of the police cars, several of them were unhappy and different things like that, but we did not really have right of way violation until we got a few glass bottles. when that happened and shattered near the officers, we switched them out one officer at a time to get helmets on and different

things like that. in the meantime, plain clothed detectives were further down to the south -- to the north, sorry, from where we are, where we were at the time in ferguson, and they were monitoring an individual in the crowd they believed was armed. they also believed three to four of his acquaintances were armed also. they put an informational bulletin out over the radio, this individual they described him, was armed, and that we should be aware of it in that area. the concern of the plain clothed detectives also at the time was that are we going to get in a situation to where perhaps shots could be fired at the squirmish line because officers are just standing there, and, of course, they are standing behind a lot of the folks that are out there protesting and voicing their opinions. i don't know exactly what time

it was, but we ended up with a situation, some captured on local media where several shots rang out. i'm guessing 40, 50, probably over 45 seconds. it could have been a little bit longer than that. it was an exchange of gunfire between two groups. they groups were on the west side near the same's market. at the same time, these plain cloefted detectives are located one building to the south of where the actual shooting, the officer involved shooting is going to take place. an individual they have been tracking crosses the street. he gets all the way to the shoulder. they think at the time he probably gathers himself and he's going to go back across the street. they turn out in an suv. it's an unmarked suv, but it has interior red and blue littles illuminated when they come out.

the suspect engages them with gunfire almost right at the grill of the car. strikes the hood, i don't know if you've seen pictures of it yet, three or four times striked windshie windshield, i think four or five times, plain clothed detectives return fire from the inside of the van, but they don't know if they hit him or not. they don't know. the suspect ran to the east on the north side of the building. he turned back around as the detectives got out of the car, and shots were fired again, and he ran around behind the building now to the south. that's a fenced area back there, so there was really nowhere to go at that point. he engaged the officers at the time. there were four officers in that van, all four fired at the suspect, and the suspect fell there. the suspect is in a local hospital, in critical, unstable condition in surgery. the officers were wearing --

while plain clothed, they had vests that said police on them at the time. there was another plain clothed unit that was in the area. >> all right, apparently, we have lost the shot. that live shot of the press conference. we are learning some very crucial information as to the shots that rang out tonight from st. louis county police chief john belmar. basically, he was saying that there was a situation on the west side near west flores street, a street we saw a year ago, a lot of violence break out. well, tonight, again, it seems like, in his words, reports of looting in that area, so they had some officers head there, but also there were plain clothed officers, detectives, that is, that were monitoring an individual in the crowd of protesters, and that person we

understand from the police chief decided to shoot at these officers that were tracking him, and he shot at the grill of the car. those detectives then returned gunfi gunfire. that's what we were learning about. i think we have the live shot back up. let's take a listen. >> i think that one of the things here that i underscored in the beginning is while this is a tragedy for the family of this man and certainly for the officers involved, and it is truly a tragedy, there is a small group of people out there that are intent on making sure that we don't have peace that prevails. i don't know how else to say that, but that's just about where i lie on this, and that's unfortunate. even with the folks that were in the street last night, listen, there's a lot of emotions, i get

it, but this is something different. we can't sustain this as a community as we move forward. we have other individuals out there who are armed right now. they are a part of this group. we need the public's help. we can't do it by ourselves. we have to have the community out here helping us, working with us to identify this and to make this stop. if you know who these people are, if you can help the police, if you have video of this, and you can give it to the police department to assist us, we would love to have that because we cannot continue. we can't talk about the good things that we have been talking about over the last year since last year's events if we're prevented from moving forward with this type of violence. it's unattainable at this point. i'll go ahead and answer a few questions. if you have them or as many as you have. >> chief, were body cameras in play at all? >> these were plain clothed officer, and they do not have

them. we have 75. we give them to the special operations people, and we give them to some of the street officers in two different precinc precincts, and until we can obtain more, that is what we have. i have 865 officers so they did not have them. >> chief, to be clear about what happened, there was a shooting between two groups of people on the west site, so mcdonalds area, around there. >> right. >> what happened with the individual who was shot on the other side, completely unrelated? >> he was one of the shooters that was involved in this situation. >> all right. >> he left that situation, looked like he was trying to perhaps leave the situation, like i said, i think he gathered himself, well, maybe i can go back across the street, but about that time, here comes the officers, and he encounters them right there. >> he just turned and shot as them as they came up? >> he did, he had a stolen .9

millimeter, stolen in 2014 from missouri, sir. >> that individual who was involved with the shooting between the two groups, he was not pursued by anybody in the two groups? when you say he tried to -- >> yeah, i think he was being pursued. he was afraid he was going to be shot, and that's why he crossed the road i can only speculate on that. >> did your officers track down the other shooters. >> no, they did not. immediately at the point in time when the officers that were involved in the shooting certainly didn't because they were involved with them, and we had gone to the east side to render assistance over to that scene, and, eventually, we got across the street to the west. we did see several people running towards canfield apartments, i did, i saw that along with the other officers when we got there that you can see run off in the zadistance.

the scene was not secure for quite a while. i hope you can appreciate that. it took awhile to understand whether exactly it had stopped at this point. once off of the street, it's dark. >> what was the race of the victim and officers? >> i'm not going to comment at all on the officers. 6-12 year veterans on the department, accomplished enough to be in specialized units. this is something we'll look at as far as policy and certainly it's begin to the prosecutor's office at some point regarding the justification of the shooting. sir? >> any idea what the -- [ inaudible ] >> you know, the night before last in front of the police station, we had heard that a group had becomae agage agitate each other because there was one individual in the crowd and the folks there did not preerlappre that he, they, whatever were m

armed. that could have. a part of it. this was what i talked about earlier. we can't afford to have this violence, not only on a night like this, but at any point in time if we're going to really move forward in the right direction. >> can you just explain what type of environment the police officers were working? >> plain clothed officers to support the clothed officers to move from time to time -- be more fluid and agile than the marked cars are. as soon as you're in a marked car, you know, it's good sometimes, it's bad sometimes. it's a tool we use. can i -- i'll get back to you, sir, since i got you once. go ahead. >> do you have any more details about -- >> five minutes before i walked in here. >> tony rice posted on twitter a video, detained, but not arrested, is that the video of the suspect that we're talking

about? >> that's it, yeah. >> talk about use of bullets or -- >> i have not been there since. we don't have rubber bullets or shoot rubber bullets. >> bean bags? >> we have bean bags, i don't know whether they've been used or not. i know that smoke's been used. smoke, that's what i was told. sir? >> the plain clothed officers, monitor protesters were there looking for shooters? >> they were there looking for shooters. i mean, they are basically just a backup for the police department to look for things that are unusual. it's not real difficult to monitor protesters. i mean, you know, they are out there. we can see them, and they are not trying to hide anything. that's really the beauty of it, you know, that's why we exercise first amendment rights. i think the other part of it is is it is troubling finding the guns and fun guy associated from time to time with this, and i

think that's kind of unique when it comes to demonstration and protests, and it's certainly making it very difficult to manage. it really does. you know, we're working very closely with chief anderson from the ferguson police department, been on the ground for just a couple weeks, working closely with the senior staff from the highway patrol and my senior staff. we're doing the best we can really just to kind of get this to the point where we can just have this conversation and move forward without the violence that, unfortunately, from time to time, has been attributed to this. again, by a very small group of people. >> were there any other injuries? >> i had an officer that was treated, i don't know if he went to the hospital or not for a laceration, took a brick to the face. yeah. >> any arrests? >> i'm sure there's been some arrests, but i'm sorry, i i don't know the answer to that. >> what did you do going forward as far as planning for today,

tonight, tomorrow night? is this going to change your strategy on how to contain this or deal with it in. >> we're going to exercise patience, professionalism, and bearing. proud of the officers out there, the way they act from time to time in the face of quite a bit rebuke, but they did good. they are good at that, they understand it, seeing it more than any other law enforcement in the nation at this point, so they understand that. they understand what their job is. it's our job to get together tonight, this morning rather, and as a staff, and talk about what to do, what it's going to look like, but it's my intention to preserve life, property, and everybody's first amendment, and all our right, and we'll continue that the best we possibly can, and my prayer is that we can move forward without the violence that is, unfortunately, been associated with this because the stakes are very high here, and i talked a lot about the fact, you cannot do this forever without a tragedy, and yet we have another

one. i think in my mind it was avoidable. this is did not have to happen. too many people worked too hard. i'm not talking about the police department, but people in the community. they worked too hard for this to happen to be undermine. i meet with these groups weekly. i shook their hands yesterday, this morning, and the day before. this really is an impediment to positive change. ma'am? >> do you know why the gunman -- [ inaudible ] >> yeah. because at the time, they -- we were not secure at all back there. we did not understand if there were going to be more shooters. we did not understand what the north side of the building was going to look like at the time, so it was very dynamic, no officers at the time could assure the safety of the public, of anybody, and all we would ask is if you want to shoot your video, we ask you to get back,

especially in a situation like that, comply and get back and move forward later. at the time, we don't have time to argue with people or debate it. you need to get back. that's the easiest way to c explain it. >> how many shots did the suspect fire at the officers? >> i don't have any idea. there's shell casings on both sides, certainly, we're talking about or you're talking about the east side, and it's a number of shell casings at this appointment. it's dark. >>. [ inaudible ] >> well, i would think that probably -- and, again, please understand i don't have the benefit of some information i'll have later, but there were probably six different shooters on the other side of the street from what i was told. we looked at some video, which showed gunfire coming from a couple different flash points. muzzle flashes is what i mean by that, so i don't know. i wish -- i would be speculating

if i tried to answer that. there were several people shooting. there was several rounds shot. >> the shooters all in that one strip mall on that site of the street? >> yes, everybody seems to really be together right there, and that was kind of a area that i looked at and thought, i was not alone, but that could be a problem. they were outside, not inside. >> fair to say the shooters were not part of the protest? were not protesters? >> no, they were criminals. they were not protesters. protesters are out there talking about a way to affect change, whatever that may be. that's not what's happening here with folks that are doing that. >> and on the smoke thing, why was smoke deployed tonight? >> oh, well, i guess it -- i could get into a long dissertation, i won't, but

sometimes you can't tell the difference between smoke and tear gas, and it's a nice way to -- we try to use it also as a warning, you know, and, hey, you know -- >> i understand what happened -- did a lot of people gather? >> oh, yes. again, i guess it's dynamic down there right now or has been. i have not been down there since about midnight, so i don't really know -- i kind of know what's going on, i know it's a problem, and i know that my deputy chief called me and said that they had their hands full, and i don't know much beyond that. again, i would ask for patience because we really -- this community where this is happening are folks that have invested a lot of money in their businesses. everything they have, their lively hood is wrapped up in this. it's up fortunate this happened. ladies and gentlemen, i appreciate your time and patience, thank you so much.

>> all right. we have been listening to the st. louis county police chief, john belmar there with a lot of new information as to exactly what happened over the course of the past few hours there in ferguson, missouri with the shots ringing out, and what we have gathered from this news conference is that he says the shooters were criminals. they were not the protesters. he says the protesters were talking about affecting change. the protesters were not involved in the shooting. now, who was involved in the shooting? what we know is at least one person was injured. here's what happened kooaccordi to the police chief, 40 to 50 shots in 40 seconds, plain clothed detectives followed this one person in the crowd, suspected of having a gun on him, and at that point, that person started to take off across the street, and the plane clothed detectives were in a

vehicle, followed him, and he shot at the grill of the police vehicle, and from there, those detectives still in the vehicle shot at the suspect. the suspect then went took off running and got to a fenced in area where he couldn't get away anymore, and those four plain clothed officers, detectives on the force from 6-12 years, veterans of the force, they shot at the suspect. the suspect was critically injured. he is in critical, unstable condition, and according to the police chief, in surgery at this hour. that's really all we know. we do not know his denty, but something very key to this press conference is that the police chief is also asking for the public's help in finding the others who were involved in this shooting. he says, we cannot do this alone. we need the public's help finding the rest of the group that fired the shots. he says it's a small group of people intent on not having peace prevail. that is what we understand went down this evening.

we're going to have msnbc up in a few minutes at the press conference to provide more information, but throughout the evening, all we had heard for so long was that there were shots fired. we don't know where the shots were coming from. we don't know who they were directed at, but we knew that police returned fire and there was possibly one person injured. well, indeed, there is one person injured tonight, and that person is in critical, unstable condition in surgery. we also know a little about the gun that was on that person. according to the police chief, it was a stolen .9 millimeter gun stolen from missouri. they are gaping a lot of information here, but to be very clear, once again, the police chief said that the shooters were criminals. they were not protesters. he made a very quick and solid distinction between the two. he said the protesters are talking about affecting change. the shooters were involved in this, they were criminals, not protesters. we're going to learn, still

more, as the day plays out, a lot of information still coming through, but, really, throughout the night and throughout the weekend, for that matter, this was a weekend to remember michael brown and what happened there a year ago. it was a peaceful protest. there were marches, silence, a lot of commemorations and all very peaceful up until about three or four hours ago where we got reports of shots being fired and that police returned fire, and when you hear about something like that, especially on a weekend that was meant to mean so much more and to sl so much hope and promise to hear shots ringing out, it's disheart enning and worrisome. there were people just waiting to hear information. there's no spark of violence that followed that. i want to take you now to msnbc inside that press conference.

bring us up to speed from what you gathered on what the police chief said. can you hear us? >> what initially began as a squirmish between two groups -- can you hear me? betty, can you hear me? >> yes, i can. go ahead, we can hear you. >> what began as a squichlish between two individuals groups of six shooters unfurled into a separate incident where police say -- you got me? >> yes, we have you. >> where this alleged gunman tried to cross the street to separate himself from the squirmish, when four officers plain clothed officers in an unmarked vehicle were trailing him, they said he turn on their lights, and as soon as he noticed lights on, he turned and fired on them and jogged around a building, they proceeded to follow that individual.

once they got back, they, again, exchanged gunfire. it's unclear how many times this individual was struck, but he's critically injured right now in the hospital. now the chief said they have not identified any of the other shooters, but he said at least six, and this is partly speculation at this point, but at least six shooters that were engaged in the initial squichlish. police are still gathering evidence. the officers involved in the shooting, four officers that are part of the elite unit between six and 12 years experience had been placed on administrative leave to be checked out to see if they were fit for duty, but, again, as details emerged, you know, the chief said this is unattainable and undoing a lot of hard work from many groups and organizers and protesters here on the ground. one other thing he said that was critical that needs were not protesters, but criminals. criminals push for change while these individuals were part of some group involved in criminal

activity. betty? >> a good point. i understand the police chief is asking for the public's help to find these people involved in the shooting because they can't do it alone. they can't be all eyes and ears on the ground and need help tracking down these people. >> reporter: that's right. this suspect was one of a number of armed individuals, such a cay yacht k situation it took a while to contain and control the scene there. as he said again and again that there's so much horde work done, but he needs the community's help. if anyone is aware of who these individuals may be, please report to police. again, the tone he struck here was, again, saying at this point in time where there's so many people pushing for change, the community cannot continue to bear the way of this violence and come together and push on.

they need everyone's help. >> absolutely they need everyone's help, and i guess the good thing in all of this aside from the fact that there was a shooting, one in the hospital, is the fact he made it very clear these were not protesters. that's a key point we want to illustrate and make clear to the viewers. >> reporter: that's right. that's the concern for protesters and organizers from the very beginning for the last year or so when the vast majority of the people pushing for change, out there taking to the streets, had a list of demands, they have been categorized as thugs and criminals. again, on both sides, always a concern that in this crowd of protesters still pushing there is a criminal element taking advantage of the opportunity to cause chaos, and the chief said

there are individuals bent on not allowing this community to come together and heal, and, again, the timing of this, one year later, this outburst of violence to undo all the hard work they've even working on. >> absolutely. we appreciate your hard work on the ground gathering more information as to what caused this shooting, and, again, one person has been shot. he remains in the hospital. we, of course, will continue to follow the story bringing you the latest. this sunday, is it donald trump has finally gone too far? >> you know, you could see there was blood coming out of her eyes. blood coming out of her wherever. >> the conservative backlash is fierce, donald trump joins me to react. plus i sit down with one of the kaeptsow who helped himselfn the gop debate. marco rubio. and our new poll, wait until you see who republican voters thought won the debate. also a leading democrat says no to the iran deal, so w