good morning, i'm joy reid in for melissa. we begin with breaking news this morning. roeters reports that the plane that went down over indonesia has been found. the plane was en route to the town of oxibill after leaving jayapura. the flight usually takes about 45 minutes but the plane lost contact about 40 minutes after takeoff. let's go to kelly cobiella. what do we know about this plane being found? >> reporter: they are citing an indonesian transportation official as saying this wreckage has now been found. villagers in this remote part of indonesia had reportedly seen the plane flying low, then crashing into a mountain. now, search and rescue teams are headed to that area, but it is dark there now.

it's about 15 miles from the destination airport. they plan to begin searching at dawn, but that's still about nine hours away. this plane was a twin turbo prop owned by trigana air. that's a local carrier in indonesia. 44 adults, five children, five crew members on board, all of them indonesian. it was flying, as you mentioned, from that provincial capital of papua to oxibill. indonesian search and rescue officials telling nbc news that the pilot radioed saying the visibility was too poor to land. that was the last communication. again, joy, this flight was going in heavy rain, strong winds, fog, some very challenging weather conditions, and it's also a difficult place to search, dense jungle and mountains. in fact, some planes that have gone down there have never been found. at this hour it appears the

wreckage from this flight has been found. joy? >> a tragic situation. kelly kobe cobiella, thank you much. we'll check back in with you at a later time. an nbc aviation analyst. john, what can you tell us about this airline which is called trigana air services? >> trigana air services has been in production for a number of years. they have both turbo props and jet aircraft. they've had some pretty serious incidents in the past from 1991 till today. and that's something that the investigators are certainly going to look at to see if there are organizational or cultural problems that may have contributed to this accident. >> of course, we've seen two major crashes in indonesia in less than a year. can you talk a little bit about the country's safety record when it comes to air travel? >> well, indonesia is an area where there is a lot of growth in aviation but they also have

some real challenges. both the terrain, the mountainous terrain, the limited navigation aids that pilots can use, as well as a lot of the airplanes are operated by smaller regional carriers. you put all of that together, and, unfortunately, they are not at the top of the countries that enjoy the best safety record. so this is something that the indonesian authorities will be working with going forward. >> yes, absolutely. in addition to tert raihe terra have indications that the plane encountered stormy weather. as a pilot, in that kind of situation flying into a storm over very mountainous terrain, what is the protocol? >> well, if you have mountainous terrain, you always maintain a given altitude above it and you follow carefully laid out ground tracks using usually ground-based navigation, but occasionally satellite navigation to carefully position the airplane in a way that you

can get down and land at the airport. the fact that the weather is bad is not something -- pilots deal with bad weather on a regular basis. they have on-board weather radar and they're able to tell where the heaviest areas of precipitation may be. if it turns out that the reports are correct that the pilot said the visibility was below something, below landing limits, then it means they're going to have to start looking at an alternate airport, another airport where they'll go and land until the visibility improves. this is all relatively routine information and routine protocols for professional pilots. now the question is what went wrong with this flight. >> indeed. captain john cox in tampa, florida, thank you very much. >> my pleasure. >> we'll continue to monitor this breaking news and bring you any new developments as they come in. let's turn now to presidential politics, and specifically the candidacy of joe lieberman. yes, joe lieberman, who you may recall was on the ticket that won the popular vote in the year

2000, who mounted his own bid for the top of the ticket in 2004. and early on, he was the front runner in the polls based largely on name recognition and a campaign season not really yet under way. lieberman's closest rivals were the establishment candidates, congressman dick gephart of missouri and massachusetts senator john kerry. but then something happened in the summer of 2003. former governor howard dean began to surge. fueled by internet fundraising and popular rhetoric, dean became the highest standing of democrats. before the year was over, he seemed soon to win the nomination. al gore endorsed him, passing over his former running mate al lieberman. major labor unions endorsed him as well, and in iowa, dean rocketed to a commanding lead in

the polls. but while dean was busy surging, john kerry had been working a powerful message. >> iowa, don't just send them a message next january, send them a president. >> the message was loud and clear to democrats. you might like the red meat rhetoric that you're hearing from governor dean, but do you really think this guy is electable against a sitting war time president? working that strategy in iowa was a man named john huley. perhaps one of the best reads there is on presidential politics, and in particular iowa presidential politics, can found by getting onto google and finding roger simon's u.s. news and world report july 2004 piece entitled "turning point." it details the iowa campaign. described in that news report as

the magical mr. huley and a god-like figure, the article also noted, if there were any lingering doubts as to whether houley was truly magical or not, it was decided on the day he wanted a helicopter. a helicopter, whouley believed, would make kerry look even more presidential. the public is used to seeing presidents climb in and out of helicopters. kerry wanted to know who ordered the helicopter, and was able to get one after he mortgaged his boston home for $2.6 million. in 2004, john kerry nabbed iowa. howard dean came in third. then came the scream and the slide nationwide, and john kerry went on to become the democratic party's nominee. fast-forward to today in 2015 when, on the republican side, there is a candidate in the primaries with both the red meat rhetoric and the helicopter. donald trump leads in the latest

iowa polls. increasingly, he's looking like an actual candidate, not just someone running a vanity campaign. trump, love him or hate him, is even hitting the ground for some good old-fashioned retail politics in the early states like new hampshire and iowa. and he didn't wait until days before the caucuses to bring his helicopter to iowa. he did it in august. in trump's case, the helicopter even has his name on it. joining me this morning are republican strategists susan del percio, hector guzman, professor at the school of political affairs, david johnson, author of "divided: the pearls of our growing economy" and co-founder of crate.com. thank you all for being here. i'm going to go to jamal first, because we did talk about poor john kerry and what seemed for a moment like his ascension into kind of the center of being the front-runner for a while in the

presidency even against george w. bush. talk a little about that expectations game, of having to look like a president before people will accept the idea of voting for you to be president. >> absolutely. this is always the thing in presidential politics, which is why when people talk about the polls, which trump is consumed with the polls and consumed with the people who are in the crowds, but there are lots of other smaller, softer things that happen in the midst of a presidential campaign that matter, and what you look like actually does matter. you have to be strong yet compassionate. you have to have vision yet be somewhat practical. there is a lot of kind of play in the mix when running presidential candidates. i've been on five campaigns, some wins, some losses, and who wins is someone who is clear about what they're doing, they know where they want to go. the thing for john kerry and hillary clinton to pay attention to in this campaign is dean lasted too long. too many democrats in the democratic party got too excited

for him and it lasted too long, and john kerry was kind of never able to recapture the democratic party and get them on the same page in november. hillary has to pay attention to the burning thing early. >> i'll come to you on it, and that is an interesting point, because when you talk about iowa voters, and i know a lot of people both on the democratic side and even some republicans cannot stand the donald trump story, because they feel it's distracting, that it isn't real, that it's ain't real campaign, that it's taking away from the more serious candidates, but if you look at the polls, he's not 50% like hillary, he's at 22% in iowa, ben carson at 14, scott walker is at 9. jeb bush is not even in the top five. so they look to this as they believe are the front runners, which they're not even charting yet in iowa. is donald trump at this point a serious candidate who is making a serious play? and if he is, can excitement for

him take away from whoever actually gets the nomination if it isn't him? >> he's very much starting to look that way. if you had asked me that question maybe ten days ago, i probably wouldn't give you the same answer. the fact he has ten people on the ground right now working iowa is serious. the fact that he's starting to put out some policies that we're going to get to later on and will be unveiled this week, next week and in the months to come, if they're real, people have to start paying attention. but what's also important is what jamal talked about, is he comes across as a leader. he says, i am going to do this, and he doesn't falter. even when what he says may not even make sense, like i'll get mexico to pay for the wall, he says it with such force, he comes across strong. and now he's eating a pork chop on a stick, so he's doing the retail stuff. he really is starting to work, which means he's also realizing he has to become more of a professional politician in that you just can't say what you

want, you do pay attention to polls. for someone who says he doesn't have a pollster, i've never seen a man talking about polls so much. but he is moving in that direction. he's talking about putting out serious money, we'll see if he does. but other republicans would be remiss if they did not pay attention to it and start coming up with their own game plan. >> and there is -- david, i'm curious about whether or not -- part of it is celebrity and name recognition. you get to 22% very quickly if you have a famous name. what percentage of that 22% are serious. can we say these are people who actually would like to vote for him or they like the way he sounds? >> these are republicans, so if you look at the whole voting population, it's like 10% in the whole voting population in the country. number two, i think you're seeing in both donald and bernie, which is the same people who won elizabeth warren, this unhappiness of what's going on in washington. trump says, i'll make these

things happen. i'll humiliate the head of ford. i will force the mexican nation to pay for this wall, which won't stop illegal immigration, people will find other ways to get into the united states. >> yeah. >> i don't think it's particularly real except it reflects the offset. >> i'll have more coming up on the other end of the break, but this morning on "meet the press," nbc's chuck todd had a face-to-face interview with donald trump. want to know how it went? we'll show you, next. bring us your aching and sleep deprived. bring us those who want to feel well rested.

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republican front runner donald trump sat down for an interview with nbc's chuck todd from "meet the press" and he spoke directly to the issue of immigration and president obama's executive action. >> the executive order gets rescinded. >> you'll rescind that one, too?

you'll rescind the dream act executive order? >> we have to. we have to make a whole new set of standards, and when people come in -- >> you're going to split up families? you're going to deport families? >> no, we have to keep the families together but they have to go. >> what if they have no place to go? >> we'll work with them. we either have a country or we don't have a country. >> that exclusive interview unfolds on "meet the press" and the whole interview will be on nbc.com. >> trump may have the helicopter and the tremendous ego that goes along with running for president, but he also has a really big mouth that i think will get him into a lot of trouble. he has brought attention to himself early in prit marrthe p and maybe the show gives him better ratings, but the attention he's drawing particularly among the hispanic

populations is actually very negative. he claims he's loved by the latino population, but the poll in nevada that actually shows him ahead in the latino population, these are latino registered republicans that want to vote in the primary. the two or three guys that make up that big population. so yes, the two or three guys in nevada love the trump. fantastic, but i think he's doing the republican party a lot of damage by alien ating a lot of the population by these remarks. the more the party embraces him and the more his campaign becomes official, if it's not tamed in any way or he owns up to remarks like that that are increasingly very alienating, it's going to trouble in the general election. >> trump is not alone. he's in these societies where we see people pop up in italy and france, people like berlusconi in italy, sort of big personalities, and what happens is they tend to be more worldly

in their base, they tend to be more traditionalist and nationalist, and they have a say -- obviously berlusconi got elected -- but everywhere else they seem to be in the broad swath of people who say, no, we're not going that direction, but they start to poll the mainstream candidates over to the side of kind of the nationalist voices. >> but what he's saying, susan, is popular among the republican base even when it's offensive to latinos. >> yes, and that's true. the republican base and the republican primary, you cannot be for amnesty. it hurts you. that's just a fact. it doesn't make it right, it's just the fact. what's interesting is about four weeks ago, trump started to open up the door a little bit to amnesty in some regard. now he seems to shut it. he needs to actually put this out and i'm very interested to see what he does after this interview. does he put out a white paper? will he actually stand firmly behind a policy? >> he says he's going to deport

everyone. >> he talked about the deportation of millions of people. >> about four weeks ago, he did say we needed a path for some people. now he's come out and changed that position. that's part of the troubling past of donald trump is he's been pro-choice, he's been pro-life. he's been pro-amnesty, now he's not. i don't know what he's going to do a month from now. that's the issue with donald trump. in the insult from the first day he announced will stay and that will do harm and that will be problematic for him, but that doesn't mean that he will be the nominee. >> you don't call someone a rapist by saying, maybe i perhaps kind of like -- >> what we're doing is we're discussing what donald wants us to talk about. donald has a whole history of things he doesn't want us to talk about, right? his personal helicopter pilot was a major cocaine dealer who he tried to help get out early and the case came before who?

his sister, who recused herself. he did business with the two biggest mob families in new york. they built trump tower at a much greater expense than if he put up a steel girder building. it's a concrete building. he wanted to negotiate with nicky scarfeaux in new york city, and he didn't want to meet with the mobster guy, he sent someone. a lot of people believe he pro bono fixed things and he stiffed his vendors. these are the things that need to be addressed about his past, his unsavory connections to people and the things that have put him where he is. we need to get to a quick break and more of chuck todd's interview with donald trump, next.

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this is a little more of nbc's chuck todd's interview with donald trump on "meet the press." >> i love this country and i want to make it great again. it's not going to be great if we keep going the way we are. we'll be third world and we probably already are. >> we're third world at a stock market of 15,000. what? >> you also have this wave stagnation, and you have people with economic angst. people ultimately doesn't care. he might not get senate confirmed but he could get elected. he have this unique vision of it's grievance and aspiration kind of mirrored up together. he says we can make it under his baseball cap as long as we meet up with these criminals that come across the border. >> which has nothing to do with

it. the third world appeal is similar to the dog whistle. we're kind of now becoming a third world nation because we have a lot of third world looking people in america. get with it. america has changed and will continue to change demographically. the longer people take to accept that, the more problems our country is going to have with policing issues and all kinds of economic and other issues because it's a divide and conquer strategy. >> we were talking on the break about the people who subscribe to donald trump and the angst about the browning of america, how big is that? is it smaller than it is? >> i don't know if it's smaller, it's actually probably larger than we may actually think it is, but it's not the only thing that's driving them. right now a lot of what's appealing about donald trump is he has somehow become a billionaire that people relate to because of the way he speaks,

and he speaks in a frank, honest way. even if you disagree with it, people respect what he says because he just says it. he calls it the way he sees it. it may be new money but it's quite a few billion dollars worth of it. >> or is it because he's a television star? >> it's part of it, but he knows how to relate to people. there is an authenticity issue which is what bernie sanders brings to the ish you, and what some people say joe biden can bring and upset hillary clinton's candidacy. you can't underestimate when people feel they can actually relate to someone. they say, i may not agree with his position on immigration, but we really need to get this country going economically. my cousin needs a job, my uncle need a job, and that's what they relate to. >> we'll have to leave it there because we do have to note a passing, a very sad passing. civil rights icon julian bond has died. a lifelong champion of equality,

bond was one of the original leaders of the young activist's group the student non-violent coordinating committee where he organized protests among s segregating communities. he founded the senator poverty law center and served more than ten years in the georgia legislature. in 2014 he spoke with melissa harris-perry about the recent setbacks and voting rights in this country. >> 50 years ago we fought against these kinds of restrictions and we overcame them with the voting rights act. now the supreme court, under the leadership of the chief justice who has been opposed to voting rights since he worked for ronald reagan years and years ago, managed to eviscerate the voting rights act and the states have jumped into the battle and increased the kind of awful,

awful restrictions on voters. these voter i.d. and other things and made it more difficult for americans to vote. so we're really seeing a repetition of what happened 15 years ago. >> the co-founder of the law center said, with julian's passing, the country has lost one of its most passionate and eloquent voices for the cause of justice. he advocated not just for african-americans but for every group, indeed every person subject to oppression and discrimination because he recognized the common humanity in us all. julian bond was 75.

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the explosions occurred in warehouses containing dangerous chemicals. officials are investigating. the other story involves the currency of china, and it's going to affect everything from interest rates to the cost of your iphone. let me explain. most major currencies are determined by the markets, but china's government sets the value of the u.n. daily, and the chinese have long been accused of undervaluing it. this past week, china's central bank pushed the u.n.'s value lower for three consecutive days, dropping its value by nearly 3%. so why would china suddenly want a less availabvaluable currency? the chinese economy has weakened while the u.s. economy has made a comeback. so they're basically putting all the goods in the country on sale, making their products cheaper and ensuring a boost to exports. the yuan is more valuable in the

u.n., which in turn will cause our economies to suffer. still with me at the table, my panel, and joining us now, gordon chang, columnist for forbes.com. hopefully i explained that okay. >> perfect. >> how alarmed should americans be about this currency valuation? >> i think long term we should be concerned, and basically they can cause deflation around the world. you don't buy things if you think it will be cheaper next week and that's where things fall off. but the bigger thing is chit knees economy is really worse than everybody thinks. it's not even at the 2.2 that people in beijing are privately talking about. it's probably more like 1, but if it's not 1 today, it will be 1 just a couple months down the road, because this economy is falling apart. >> and that means for us? >> it means that the dollar is

more highly valued. that makes it more difficult for us to sell things that we export, for example. the country is probabthat's pro going to get hit here is brazil. they have a lot of exports like oil, and china is its biggest customer. but it certainly will hurt americans, and there is something we can do about it. the u.s. government could start buying u.n. in the market. at 6.4 to the dollar, we could start buying at 6 and money managers would rush to unload. that would drive up the chinese currency. then you're in a financial war, though, with china, which is not as bad as a hot war, but has its own problems. >> i think for a lot of people, this also swims around and becomes like a soup, right? for everyday americans in your day to day life, we talked about the iphone becoming more expensive, because it feels like the dollar being stronger is a good thing. how is that not a good thing? >> it shows confidence in the rest of the world in the united

states, but it's not good for u.s. exporters because their products become so much more expensive around the world. where it is a good thing for u.s. consumers is that your iphone will be cheaper in the u.s. because there is a manufacturing component in china that will get cheaper, but the real problem is currency war. we're starting to see this already in asia as other countries are dropping their currencies, especially vietnamese, and you have to think about the 1930s. this is a currency war. the dynamic, however, is the same. >> when you said the '30s, you mean the depression. >> the great depression. >> we've seen china manipulate their currencies for decades upon decades, but we've never seen what they're doing with their stock markets that we just saw in july and august. that's, i think, adding a whole new dichotomy to the situation, especially how our stock market relates to that and how our economy is moving forward and even americans put faith in that. so i think that's probably

another issue. >> the chinese leadership were all raised on documentary communism and really don't understand financial rates. but gordon hit on something very important that people need to understand. what's really going on in the world is a tendency toward a vast deflation. you can buy things in the future at a lower price if you hoard dollars today. american corporations right now, non-bank corporations, are sitting on $6.7 trillion of cash. that's $21,000 for every american, because they don't have anyplace to invest it. if, in fact, we have a deflation, that's going to be worth much more money. it's affecting us everywhere. i'm going to pierson airport in toronto, it was 700. if i waited two months, i would have only paid 500. >> stay with us, because this story in china also ties in directly to the presidential campaign. and, of course, the republican front runner has thoughts about

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>> some of you aren't into this, but bakely yesterday they did the largest devaluation in the history of china. what that means is you hear that sucking sound. you know what the sucking sound is? that means jobs, that means money, that means all of this coming out. it's the greatest theft in the history of the united states, what china has done to us. we have rebuilt china. our money has rebuilt china. >> that was donald trump speaking friday in new hampshire. gop candidates are already weighing in on what's sure to be one of the hot topics of the election. former hewlett-packard ceo carly fiorina has called china an oppressive totalitarian regime,

and ted cruz accused china of starting a cyber warfare in america. many are wondering how president obama will respond. i want to go back to one of the phrases that donald used, giant sucking sound, which immediately triggered in my head ross perot. it's bringing back this economic angst that americans have, even on paper it's good. >> one of the things that's hard for human beings, especially for americans, we see the world as america at the center and everyone else impacting us. china are moving people from rural areas into cities, they have to build places for them to live, they're trying to figure out health problems, they have pollution issues, we saw this explosion. so there is a lot going on in that country, and i think donald trump is tapping into an american angst that exists about

china that we all have to be responsible for. >> donald trump, i can say he's flip-flo flip-flop odd a lot of issues. he has talked about trade in china for decades. this is something he has been consistent on. every time his name comes up for president, this is usually what he starts off with. he does bring up a good point on how he can deal with china, and i'm very curious to see what the president will do because there are things that can be done about trade. i think that's one of the things that if the united states wanted to focus on in this meeting, that's it. >> i think there is now a consensus that he's right in one respect, and that is that we have not negotiated good trade deals with china and we certainly haven't enforced them. the issue going forward for trump and for the president is going to be, what do we do about it, and we haven't heard very much about that from any political candidate right now. but that is a critical issue, because there are all sorts of very important trends that are going on that we've talked about, and they're going to

affect this country in ways we cannot predict but very soon. >> one of the trends is the manufacturing base eroding in this country, and uft questions is if china is deteriorating, does that mean that manufacturing can come back in the u.s.? >> manufacturing has come back in productivity, but we've lost 300 million jobs just to china. it's trading that is unbalanced, at the core of that. if the chinese currency were to rise, then, of course, it would be easier to bring more jobs back to the united states, but we've also lost a lot of technology to china. years ago i exposed the rare earth transfer of all that technology paid for by american taxpayers to china. you can't build an iphone or ipad or microphone or a smartbomb without neodemium, and yet we sold to china through wall street funds all this technology. and the bush administration would never explain to anybody why they allowed this to happen.

the clinton administration had to keep it in the u.s. >> is one of the reasons we've gotten more competitive in manufacturing is because the cost of manufacturing has gone down? i'm from michigan and all these jobs that used to pay 10 to $11 an hour now pay $14 an hour. >> which is a bad mistake. >> there's something to that, but they're not the jobs we think of that my grandparents had that paid for my parents to be able to go to school. >> one of them is that there's now a feeling between companies that you have to be close to your customers, and in china wage increases are about three times productivity increases. that's unsustainable. so you see people leaving china for places like bangladesh, and the big industry now is india, because the largest factory in china has now announced a $5 billion investment into india. >> it sounds like a serious issue we could start talking about in 2016.

before we go to break, i want to give you an additional update on breaking news we've been following this morning. officials say a plane that lost contact with air traffic control this morning has been found. the twin turbo prop plane carrying 54 people lost contact about 30 minutes into its 45-minute flight. stay with msnbc and we'll have a live report at the top of the hour. still to come this morning, the story of the 14-year-old boy shot seven times by police in trenton, new jersey while reportedly running away. but up next, scott walker signs off on spending $250 million of taxpayer money to build a sports stadium. if you have moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. isn't it time to let the real you shine through?

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this week hillary clinton rolled out her plan to deal with student debt, including allocating $17 billion in grants to states that maintain or increased their funding for state higher education. that may not sound like a big ask, but it would reverse the

nationwide trend of slashing higher ed budgets. 48 states now spend less per student than before the recession. one of those states is wisconsin, which in its latest biannual budget saw a quarter million dollars cut from the university of wisconsin's system at the hands of clinton's potential opponent, governor scott walker. but walker has found a cause he thought worthy of this same amount of public money: a brand new arena for the milwaukee bucs basketball team. walker signed a bill of $250 million over 20 years for the project. but that figure balloons to $400 million. why would walker, who is running his campaign based on fiscal conservatism, would spend so much in taxpayer money on a fancy new stadium bringing criticism from the right? well, because the nba demanded it.

according to paul fagan, they threatened to buy back the team and sell it to a wealthier city like las vegas or seattle if there were no plans to build a new arena. the governor's office estimates that the loss of tax revenue generated by the franchise would amount to $419 million over 20 years, with walker arguing that it's cheaper to keep them. the deal raised some eyebrows as john hams, a minority owner of the team, serves as finance chairman of the walker campaign and recently donated $150,000 to a pro walker superpac. but fear of losing the team also has walker forming some unlikely partnerships. current bucs owners are contributing $150 million for the complex. and lazry happens to be a major fundraiser for hillary clinton. and herb coal, a democrat from wisconsin, chipped in $100

million. and much like walker's more controversial proposals, this one passed with broad bipartisan support, but many economists are skeptical at how much the cities actually benefit by spending on sports facilities. economists at the college of holy cross found that the evidence of significant direct economic benefits from sporting events and franchises is lacking. sports may make a city happy, but they are unlikely to make a city rich. team pride may not be enough. as a local union leader said, the billionaire owners and the nba are blackmailing city and county leaders into bankrolling an arena in one of the nation's poorest and most segregated cities. it certainly sounds, dave, like bla blackmail. give us the stadium or we take the team away. >> not only that, i don't endorse this, but previous

societies would have cut walker's hands from his body in protest at this kind of bribery. it's difficult for me not to think about the passing of julian bond in the context of this story. julian bond lived his life according to principles of social and economic justice, and this stadium deal is the antithesis, and i say this because the county of milwaukee is now going to owe the bucs' ownership $4 million a year for 20 years to pay for it. how are they going to get that money? the word they've used is going after scofflaws. i hope we learned from ferguson what that means when police are basically put in the role of being aggressive tax collectors, going after poor and minority people, imprisoning them, being mora gress sieve with ticketing,

mo more aggressive with traffic stops in this case to pay for a stadium for the richest people in the united states. this is so absurd. one of the county officials said if an alien came down to planet earth and saw this, they would say, what are you guys doing? i think it's about time we stepped back and said, when it comes to public funding for stadiums, this is the one case where the emperor, or in this case governor walker, truly has no clothes. >> david, it seems like this issue comes up time and time again. i know this happened in miami when we were looking for a stadium. they seem to get the idea that this is a big wealth transfer to the rich. why is it these stadium deals succeed almost every time? >> it's because of political contributions. the bipartisan nature of the bucs ownership to me gives all this away. you mentioned lazr, big hillary

donor. he also promoted hillary clinton at his hedge fund, and chris hams who is not only the co-chair, he also bought acres of land around the area where the new stadium will be built because of the expected gentrification. that's an issue of racial justice, and that's why i have no doubt that julian bond would be on the front lines opposing this stadium build. i think frankly it's our own cynicism that keeps us from hounding scott walker to this where he would slink away in shame, plus everyone in this country are complicit in these awful stadium deals. the fact remains, these are one of the few things that they largely agree upon, that there is no economic benefit to cities to giving billionaires millions of dollars in public funds. >> i wonder, because as you say, this isn't just the nfl, this isn't just the nba. in glendale, california, there was an nfl hockey team the

coyotes that did the same thing. what can the public do, if anything? >> the main thing the public can do, there's nothing else they can do at this point, is raise hell and protest about this. and they can make sure that the jobs that are produced by the stadium construction are produced as living wage jobs as much as possible, union jobs, and make sure these stadiums are actually places that raise up the city. and the demand that should be made on top of this is that public spending should come with public ownership. it's ridiculous that the money automatically turns into private profit for hedge fund owners. that's the demand we need to push, and there is great knowledge for it that scott walker says is his favorite team, and that's the green bay packers. it would be amazing if he took the principles of the green bay packers owner and actually applied it to how he views other sports teams in the state of wisconsin. a las, we don't see those principles coming out of the walker campaign. >> thank you.

here in new york i also want to thank my panel. still to come this morning, has the time come to decriminalize sex work? amnesty international says yes. and the leaks coming out of the freddie gray case in baltimore. how the defense seems to be trying its case in the public eye. more in nerdland at the top of the hour. (vo) maggie wasn't thrilled when ben and i got married. i knew it'd take some time. and her sensitive stomach didn't make things easier. it was hard to know why...

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when something works, people stick with it. more people stick with humana medicare advantage. because we stick with them. humana medicare advantage. the plan people stick with. welcome back. i'm joy reid in for melissa. we're following breaking news out of indonesia where indonesian officials say a plane that lost contact with air traffic control has been found. the turbo prop plane with 54 people on board was en route to the town of oxibill after leaving jayapura. the plane lost contact after about 30 minutes after takeoff. kelly kocobiella, what are they

telling us? >> they say they saw the plane fly low and then crash into a mountain. reuters says the wreckage has been found citing an indonesian ministry official. but officials in indonesia are cautioning against confirming this. they say they haven't actually located this wreckage yet. keep in mind it's the middle of the night there. they've sent search and rescue teams to this remote part of eastern papua, but because of conditions on the ground, mountainous, dense jungle, nighttime, they're waiting until dawn to start this search in about eight hours. the plane is a trwin turbo prop. it's owned by trigana services. the pilot actually radioed in at one point saying the visibility was too poor to land and that

that was the last communication. this plane was flying in heavy rain, strong winds and fog in a mountainous area, a difficult place to search, joy, dense jungle. in fact, some planes that have gone down there have never been found, but it looks like that will not be the case in this instance. joy? >> all right, kelly cobiella in london, thank you very much, and stay with msnbc for the latest. now to the criminal death of freddie gray which continues to make its way through court. six police officers have been charged in gray's death from charges of misconduct in the office to charges of murder. all have pleaded not guilty. gray died from injuries in the back of a police van. he was arrested when police said he made eye contact with police and tried to run away.

at one point he was placed head first into the van lying on his stomach with his handcuffed behind his back and his legs shackled. officers allegedly ignored thhi pleas for medical attention. he was found unconscious in the van, and his severe injuries resulted in a crushed spinal cord at the neck and a crushed voice box. it created riots on the day of his funeral. although the officers' trials will not begin until april, people have been furiously filing public court motions, each accusing the other of misconduct and trying to frame the narrative before the trial begins. they have accused prosecutor marilyn mosby's office that freddie gray may have had a history of injuring himself to get cash settlements, including once in police custody.

the officers provided no evidence of such a history. but they claimed a prosecutor stopped internal police investigators from exploring evidence of the so-called crash for cash schemes and allegedly said they shouldn't, quote, do the defense attorney's jobs for them. prosecutors say they have turned over all evidence to which the defense is entitled. the defendants' claims harken back to just before gray's death, when police claimed that another man being transported in the same police van as gray heard him banging his head against the walls as if trying to injure himself. that man, dante allen, later gave interviews denying he ever said that. >> we went straight to the police station. all i heard was like a little bang for about four seconds. >> as the trial approaches for the six officers, all of whom once again have pleaded not guilty, it seems part of their defense may be that gray, handcuffed in the back of a police van with no seat belt,

caused his own death. joining me now, msnbc contributor and host of "the docket" and civil rights attorney. professor of public affairs, attorney for the family of freddie gray and former circuit court judge for the city of baltimore, and amy meredith cox, assistant professor of african-american studies at fordham university and the author of "shape shifters: black girls" which are officially on my reading list. on these claims by officers about freddie gray and the supposed history of crash for cash schemes, is there any evidence of that? >> absolutely not, and nobody has heard of any such evidence, and it's a classic example of the defense reacting to a rumor by putting it on the prosecution and accusing them of not giving evidence to substantiate the rumor. it's a crazy tactic but it

evidently is working, because we're talking about it on msnbc. >> and the day that prosecutor mosby filed the charges initially against the officer, she said this case is not going to be litigated in public, and yet it is, in a sense. >> it's not the prosecutor who is doing it. the prosecutor is reacting against the brazen attempts of the defense to change the subject. think about it. what's this got to do with what the police did to freddie gray? we know he went into the van as a healthy man. he may have been injured during the arrest as well. and he comes out with a partially severed spine, 80% severed spine and three broken vertebrae. how does that happen? how could it not be somebody's fault? and to blame it on freddie gray is the height of absurdity. >> and sema, i want to come to you on this as a former prosecutor. it does feel like part of what we see in these cases of police-involved killings is an immediate jump to try to say the

person caused their own death, that something they did is to blame and not the police actions. that pattern seems to be continuing here. >> if there is this cash for crash scenario, then it definitely deserves to be investigated. i am surprised that anyone would make these accusations, any lawyer would make them without some type of good faith basis because it's what we learn as lawyers. you don't make frivolous motions, right? but it's certainly relevant if there is some type of causation conne connectivity to his death, to the autopsy. >> but there is already evidence of the defense making false allegations. and they say, why haven't you given me the evidence to support this unsubstantiated rumor? >> weren't they given all the discovery? >> they were given something like 52 gigabytes of discovery. >> so it seems like quite a bit. >> they've been given

information about 30-some witnesses in the case. so this attack strategy is normally a sound strategy unless you've got irresponsible allegations, and that's what we've had so far. >> the question i would have also is just getting the allegations out. even if you don't have anything to substantiate them and getting them in the baltimore -- >> so this is about narratives not just that are fought in the courtroom but what happens in public opinion. it's very strategic. in some ways it matters less whether or not these allegation are true but what it does to not only delegitimize the fact that black men, women and even children are being killed across this country and have to prove their humanity in the face of this killing, but also this large narrative of collective protest is a way to squash these collective challenges to state violence. >> what we've seen over the last few years is the delegitimizing versions of what happens. there is something that happens that the police claim the person

caused for themselves because they were afraid, and the community and everybody outside looks at the same set of facts or what they know and say, no, that's not really what we observe. so more and more we're seeing the police side sticking to one version and the public realizing that what may have happened is something very different. what we need to look at is why are we in the spaituation over d over again. my conclusion is that poverty, racism and guns just don't mix. >> what we're seeing is a 350-year-old pattern emerge in the public eye for the first time. the police role in the black community has never been legitimate. first they policed slavery, then they policed the aftermath which was just as bad as slavery. in 1964 we saw some changes -- >> a video shows a new version of what happened, and reality needs to be shaken up a little bit. >> here's what happened in 1968 that white folks just whitewash.

richard nixon relegitimized racism by inviting the dix dixiecrats into legitimacy where they have found a home, where they have found a voice, and now they say racism doesn't exist. >> i want to talk about a change of venue in this freddie gray case, but more on this issue of policing after the break. it took joel silverman years to become a master dog trainer. but only a few commands to master depositing checks at chase atms. technology designed for you. so you can easily master the way you bank.

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as a gas service rep we are basically the ambassador of the company. we make the most contact with the customers on a daily basis. i work hand-in-hand with crews to make sure our gas pipes are safe. my wife and i are both from san jose. my kids and their friends live in this community. every time i go to a customer's house, their children could be friends with my children so it's important to me. one of the most rewarding parts of this job is after you help a customer, seeing a smile on their face. together, we're building a better california. so we're continuing to talk about this issue of policing, and there was a case recently in alabama where an officer was pistol-whipped by somebody he stopped with his gun, and one of the statements you see coming out of the union representing those officers are, well,

officers are sort of holding back now, they're afraid to act. but then you still see these additional incidents around the country. one of them that i think a lot of people were particularly outraged by was a woman in texas who was subjected to a vaginal cavity search during a routine traffic stop. i want to play a little bit of sound of her talking about her experience. take a listen. >> my hands are already handcuffed behind me, you know, so she pulls my pants down, and then she tells me to bend over. so, you know, i kind of hesitated because i'm like, bend over? and i just -- i bent over, and she proceeded to stick her fingers in me, and i popped up immediately and said, no, what are you doing? you can't do that to me. and she tells me, i can do what i want to do because it's a narcotics search. >> whether it's this case, the sandra bland case -- >> no. a body cavity search has to be done in the precinct after

certain steps have been taken. the traffic stop was fine, right, she was legitimately going through a stop sign, so that's step one. pull her over. i smell marijuana, can i search your car? yes. he sercarches the car. again, we're fine. we don't find any marijuana. at that point i think the inquiry stops. you give her a ticket for running the stop sign, it's over. that's it. you don't strip search people and then rape them. >> we talk about police violence in this larger history of the sexual assault of black women in this country. this is a continuation of a historical legacy and we really don't talk about how sexual violence has played out in policing until recently on black women's bodies. so if you think about the fact that black women make up roughly less than 15% of the population and 60% of those black women before the age of 18 have experienced some sexual assault, right? and for every one woman that comes forward and talks about the sexual assault, there are 15

others who say nothing. so if you think about the public shaming and silencing of sexual assault and you have a case like this where a woman can be violated on the side of the road in public by an officer of the state who is there to protect, what does it mean for all the other women and girls who have been sexually assaulted? so this trauma, this terror, i would say, are not about these individual cases of sandra bland, but what happens to the larger population of this country. >> it's about power and authority and the assertion of that power and authority, and don't let anyone question that. which is why the narrative about the policeman being pistol-whipped is exactly an attempt to reinforce that power, saying, unless we have absolute power to do whatever we want and we're the ones that decide how we're going to do it, when it's going to be done, and anybody who defies us are going to be under the gun -- >> if sandra bland did not even have the right to smoke her cigarette in her car, how could

the woman in the case of the vaginal cavity search even assert her right to say no to that kind of violation? >> i did a video called "the 10 rules of dealing with the police" and one of the things we learned is you can't be restrained, you have to be laid back, you have to be polite, you have to be cooperative. but cooperativeness has its limits. you don't have to give in to a body cavity search, you don't have to give in to not smoking your cigarette. police will change only when we put those la pel cameras on them so we can monitor everything they do. and that's right around the corner if we keep up the pressure. then we'll have real evidence and we won't have the swearing contests that the police always seem to win. >> well, i want to thank all of you. first of all, thank you to hector guzman. i appreciate you being here. up next, she is the mother of the 14-year-old boy who was shot seven times by police,

reportedly while running away from them. she joins me live in studio after the break. hi my name is tom. i'm raph. my name is anne. i'm one of the real live attorneys you can talk to through legalzoom. don't let unanswered legal questions hold you up, because we're here, we're here, and we've got your back. legalzoom. legal help is here.

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ask your doctor or visit spirivarespimat.com two police officers shot and killed a 14-year-old boy in frent trenton, new jersey. here's what we know. according to the attorney general who is investigating the shooting, officers were responding to reports of gunshots when they approached 14-year-old rodez hearns and two friends friday night. two of the boys complied with the officers' orders, but rodez ran away. one of the officers opened fire. bullets struck rodez in the legs and buttocks, according to the attorney general. according to rodez's attorney, the teen was shot seven times, five in the right leg, one in the left and one bullet lodged in his pelvis. his attorney says he was in the

hospital for a week and is now recovering at home. according to the state attorney general, witnesses saw rodez reaching for his waistband as he fled. the ag also said a gun was recovered at the scene underneath a car. but rodez's attorney said the 14-year-old didn't have a gun and he was only trying to hold up his pants as he ran away. officials have not said whether the officers saw themselves rodez reaching for his waistband and we were unable to reach the attorney general's office, the sheriff or the new jersey state police for comment. rodez's attorney says he has not been charged with any crime, and the attorney for one of the officers involved, none of whom have been identified, told the website nj.com that rodez, quote, certainly had a gun. and the attorney said the actions of the police officers were justified under the law. these officers did nothing wrong. it's a justified use of force. new jersey congresswoman bonnie watson coleman whose district includes trenton has called for

a federal investigation into the incident. and the u.s. attorney's office said late friday that it will observe the state's investigation. meanwhile, trenton mayor eric jackson has asked his constituents not to jump to conclusions before the state attorney general finishes his investigation. joining me now are salima jackson, mother of rodez hearns, and samuel herman, attorney for the family. i'll just start by asking you how rodez is doing. >> he's progressing. he's still in a lot of pain, so he's still working on walking normally again. >> and then so i want to go to you on some of the discrepancies in the facts of the case, samuel. the police say that rodez ran from them and that he had a gun and that a gun was recovered. what is wrong with that narrative, in your view? >> let's talk about what happened. on the night in question, rodez and two of his friends were walking towards the corner of

louise avenue and calhoun streets in trenton. at that time, an unmarked van approached them, and three individuals jumped out of the vehicle with their guns drawn. at that time, rodez did what anyone would do, is he turned around and ran in the opposite direction. he took about three or four steps and was struck seven times. >> what about this issue of a gun that was found? how close to this intersection to where he was shot was that gun found? >> we understand that the gun was found further down on calhoun street. the issue with that is that the gun was found underneath a vehicle, but there are no vehicles that can park on calhoun street probably for about 50 to 100 yards from where the accident occurred. what we know is that there was no gun found in the path of travel that rodez traveled in from where he encountered the officers to where he was shot and fell. >> and when was that gun recovered? >> the gun was recovered 12 hours after this incident.

>> and ms. jackson, has rodez explained to you or told you why it is that he ran away rather than stay and talk to the officers? >> my son was scared. he did not know what was going on. if someone, you know, pulls up out of a vehicle with their guns drawn, i'm going to run, too. i don't know what was going on. so he just wanted to get away. >> and samuel, were any of the three teens, the three boys, charged with any crime? >> we understand that one individual was detained for the night, but no one has been charged with any crime. >> and the one young man who was detained for the night, he was detained but not charged? >> he was detained and released the next day. >> released to his parents. is it your understanding that rodez is facing any charges at all? >> at this time rodez is facing no charges. >> so the question would be in terms of the shooting. what have you, ms. jackson, been told by police in regards to the shooting itself? have you had communication with the police? >> no one has spoke to me.

i have no information on their behalf of it, no. >> what about as far as the identities of the officers who were involved in the incident? much of it seems to be sealed from public view. >> that's the problem in this whole ordeal is that there's been no transparency between the attorney general's office to the public, and that's what's causing the unrest. >> is there a timeline that you know of for this investigation when the family can expect to have some conclusion as to what happened? >> we've been given no assurances as to a timeline as to when this investigation would be completed. >> i wonder in general, ms. jackson, what is the relationship like between police in your community and the young people, young boys and girls of color in the community? >> well, it isn't a friendly one. you know, the kids would hang out, the teenagers hang out, associate with one another. the cops will come around and pull up on the sidewalk and, you know, tell them to disburse.

just nagging and picking. it's not a friendly relationship with the cops, no. >> and you're now looking to the federal government to also get involved? >> yes. >> that's what's you're hoping for. i want to thank both of you, ms. jackson, and thank you, samuel, for being here. up next, writer michael denzel smith joins me to talk about the rebirth of black rage. (vo) what's your dog food's first ingredient?

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righteous rage of african-american people is having a moment. it's a moment that has a long historical precedent, and it reminded the nation contributing writer, michael denzel smith, of another conspicuous display of black rage in the aftermath of hurricane katrina. >> george bush doesn't care about black people. >> in an article entitled "the rebirth of black rage," smith writes, black rage announces itself in the women's convention in akron, aye and says, ain't i a woman? black rage stands before hundreds of thousands at the lincoln memorial and says, america has given the negro people a bad check, a check which has come back marked insufficient funds. black rage says to the democratic national convention, i'm sick and tired of being sick and tired. black rage says [ bleep ] the police and fight the power.

i love when you focused on that moment when you said george bush doesn't care about black people. why do you suppose that moment was so powerful? >> let me start by saying peace to the memory of julian bond who makes all this current organizing possible because of his work. >> yes. >> it captures something very real that people feel, right? you know in your heart, like george bush does not care about you as president, right? he disregards your existence because he's never paid attention to black people very much, you know. but kanye goes on national television and says it, and says it in a very cutting and decisive way that gives voice to that feeling. as we watched hurricane katrina, the floodwaters, the negligence of racism in the united states. so it gives birth to that moment, but then it sort of

seeps away because we have, like -- we became invested in the institutional, right? the black rage sits on the outside, for the most part, and it cuts at the core of white supremacy. but what we've done in the wake of the civil rights movement in the advances that we had is we've run for office. this is not a bad thing, but what it does, then, is mean we have to compromise because that's what electoral politics is in this country. >> i'm glad you mentioned julian bond because snik versus scsc was was it going to be confrontation or work from power to get them to do what we wanted them to do and they were told to calm down at the washington march, for instance. do you feel that black rage has been marginalized so much that it's unexceptional as a strategy to calm violence against black people? >> absolutely not. i think it's more necessary than ever. what we're experiencing is the

limitations of what electoral politics can do, and the way we have to push our candidates, whether it' bernie sanders or jeb bush, and that's what black violence does is it gets people talking, even saying, well, we should get police body cameras. that's the biggest compromise we're willing to make instead of talking about the ways in which the laws and the policies put police in our communities and make them more aggressive towards us, and the things that are defined as crime in our communities where black people are policed far more. >> let me play this moment from president obama which has become the moment for him in 2015 and talk about this comment between black rage and black grace.

♪ amazing grace >> is it too big a demand that black people be given grace as well as justice? >> yes. how can we be in the face of such injustice? we've managed it so far, but why keep doing it when we have the outcome of that, why is it that injustice continues? even in that moment with obama in that church singing "amazing grace," that's the product of this new black rage, because he's been the moralizing figures that have talked about our shortcomings as people. any time he gets to talk about racism, it's always couched in these sort of politics of accountability and respectability and what we need to do. in terms of recently where he's been has been less of that talk and it's been like visiting a

federal prison and talking about our failures in drug policies, things like that. so even president obama, who has been the hope and change, has pushed for this. >> we saw they sort of merged and became one. thank you, michael denzel smith. you're going to stick around for us. after the break, we're going to get into the debate over sex work and the major international organization that says it's time to decriminalize it. but before we go to break, we have more on the passing of civil rights activist julian bond. bond was a lifelong advocate of equal rights, serving as one of the original leaders of the student nonviolent coordinating community which was in our civil communities. he served in george's legislature for 20 years where he advocated for programs to help minority and low-income residents. just moments ago, president obama issued this statement. julian bond was a hero and i'm

privileged to say a friend. justice inequality was the mission that spanned his life, from the leadership of the student nonviolent coordinating committee to his founding role with the southern poverty law center, to his pie nearing service in the georgia legislature and his steady hand at the helm of the naacp. michelle and i have benefited from his example, his counsel, and his friendship. and we offer our prayers and sympathies to his wife pamela and his children. julian bond helped clang the country for the better. and what better way to be remembered than that. julian bond was 75. es. your call is important to us. thank you for your patience. waiter! in the nation, we know how it feels when you aren't treated like a priority. we do things differently. we'll take care of it. we put members first... join the nation. thank you.

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♪ they lived. ♪ they lived. ♪ they lived. ♪ (dad) we lived... thanks to our subaru. ♪ (announcer) love. it's what makes a subaru, a subaru. amnesty international, the largest human rights organization in the world, voted to establish policy that would push governments to decriminalize sex work worldwide. the organization spent two years collecting research opinions and

experien experienceal agencies, international aids organizations and other sources before calling for a policy that seeks attainment of the highest possible protection of the human rights of sex workers. the organization has in newman rated newman rights issues that it says must be taken into account including maximizing protection of the full range of human rights in addition to gender equality, women's rights and non-discrimination relate ds to sex work, in particular security of the person, the rights of children, access to justice, the right to health, the rights of indigenous peoples and the right to a livelihood. taking appropriate measures to realize the economic and social and cultural rights of all people so no people enter sex work against their will. and every state's obligation to make sure sex workers are protected from exploitation and can use criminal law to address acts of exploitation. the organization says it's addressing the issue raised on international human rights

standards and is creating the policy in an effort to help governments across the globe protect the rights of all people, including marginalized sex workers. it also aims to reduce the risk of harassment, violence, abuse by law enforcement and exclusion from health care and housing services that many sex workers currently experience. amnesty international says its policies can be stated while still outlawing prostitution. but they are concerned that decriminalizing sex work will further enable the exploitation of women by decriminalizing the acts of pimps and sex buyers. sidney mccain, for example, the chairman of the human traffic advisory council maintains that sex work and sex trafficking cannot reasonably be separated. sex work fuels the demand for commercial sex which is the in disputable driving force behind

the sex trafficking industry. supply will always meet demand, and in this equation, supply is often too vulnerable to men, women, and at its worst, children. joining me is a defense attorney, chloe engel, amy cox, michael denzel smith, contributing writer at the nation.com, and andrea powell, founder and director of go girls. andrey a i'm going to go to you first. those who are skeptical that decriminalizing sex work will do nothing but proliferate it, how would respond to that argument? >> first i want to speak from my perspective as executive director of fair girls, and we work with young women and girls who have experienced sexual exploitation, and one of the core violations that they've experienced is over half of the girls we've served, some as young as 13, are arrested for

prostitution prior to getting help and being identified as victims of exploitation. so one thing that's really motivating us to speak out is the fact that we know that arrest destabilizes their entire life, it's humiliating and it leads to further pushing them underground into that world of exploitation. pimps and traffickers actually say to these girls, you are going to be arrested if you try to get help. by doing so, we confirmed that and don't uphold their human rights. so really what i say to people who say, well, if we decriminalize them we further give opportunities to pimps and traffickers, i actually think potentially the opposite is true. if we give sex workers and those involved in sex work as victims the opportunity to speak out without fear of arrest and further abuse, we're actually giving them the power to take control of their lives. >> but andrea, in some instances, isn't the potential that law enforcement is the only intervention, that potentially a third world child who possibly

couldn't have chosen to go into this line of work, might that be the only intervention that child might get? >> right. so if we're talking about decriminalization, we're not talking about the fact that we want children to have the right to be involved in sex work. that is always sex trafficking under the trafficking victims protection act. any child who is involved in a situation of commercial sex, whether he or she says she wants to or not, is automatically considered a victim, and currently there is a nationwide push to be sure that children aren't arrested and prosecuted. currently only a few states out of all the states have that policy, but we're definitely pushing in that direction. and that really speaks to where we're at as a country in talking about decriminalization kind of overall. we're still trying to make sure children aren't being arrested. >> i want to get the panel in on that as well, and chloe, maybe i'm just a huge skeptic that maybe somehow this will solve the problem?

>> georgia grant wrote on this issue, she's been on this for a long time, and she made the point that andrea speaks to which is that most of the violence that sex workers are experiencing is coming from police. not from their clients, not from their pimps but from the police, that policing is the problem. so i'm really glad we're doing this segment immediately after talking about policing because we cannot separate these issues. we've been having a really necessary conversation about unwanted, unnecessary, unwarranted police violence, and that conversation has focused largely on young, unarmed black men, as it should. it should also focus on people who are additionally marginalized because they are pushed further from the mainstream, further out of the limelight because they are practicing what is currently an illegal activity. >> i want to understand this. i think this is ridiculous. so there is a few points. one is the consent issue because the policy is saying, oh, if you consent to this, then it's okay. that's why the pimps aren't going to be prosecuted. i think the pimps have to be

prosecuted because that's how we find weather sex trafficking exists. i think the problem of decriminalization of prostitution is because that is the vehicle to investigate whether sex trafficking also exists. not to actually prosecute, though. at least in new york, there is a tremendous headway with you arrested prostitutes, you give them every single opportunity in the world to get the services like housing, and then you don't prosecute them. this is the way we find out if there's sex trafficking. and i've seen hundreds of prostitutes testify for the defendants, for the pimps, because they won't cooperate with the prosecution. people don't understand, prosecutors aren't just to put people in jail, prosecutors are ministers of justice. they're trying to protect these women. when you come to me and say that it is okay to be called a ho because that's what these girls -- they get up there and testify and they say, it's okay

they call me a ho. i'm a ho. that's who i am. tell me there's no problem. tell me there's no problem with slavery. >> i think we put into question of how practical it is to criminalize one side and not the other. in fact, a lot who have been talking to journalists say criminalizing pimps, criminalizing demand make it tough for sex workers to have their own safety. >> these girls, let's say you're 13, joy, and you get roped in but you don't get arrested until you're 16. then andrea is saying, it's all right. >> i want to ask that question about whether it's ever consensual or whether people choose this life. we're also going to hear the perspective from a pimp. soaring away from home towards the promise of a better existence. but these birds are suffering. because this better place turned out to have a less reliable cell phone network,

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one of my quests also hosts the online program on shift by msnbc. april with dennis hawk who runs

a legal brothel in nevada called the moonlight bunny ranch. his legal brothel is, of course, quite different from all the cases we've been discussing. this is a brothel featured in an hbo reality show called "the kas house." i want to pay the portion of the interview where he talks about the decriminalization and the background of the women working for him. here you are reading an xempt from his book that references a friend critical of his business. >> there's always something tragic in their background that led them into this type of work, always. >> always is a broad word. it's a employment opportunity. whether you think it's a good one or bad one, people go into the business for a different reason. if you think every girl has been molested or had an incestuous relationship, you're wrong.

it's a terrible business until you legalize it. >> i worked for over a decade in a homeless shelter in detroit, largely composed of young black girls. and i'm most concerned with how we -- in legislation, that we protect the world's most vulnerable populations. how do we create strategies to protect those populations. how do we connect sex work inevitably to poverty. to access to health care. to the ability to be able to feed yourself and your children. i'm skeptical of the state's ability to do that, to provide that access. but i think we're also not making a clear distinction between legalization and decriminalization. which is a very important thing to make that distinction. think about the fact that sex work, how do we think about sex work as labor, how do we think about labor rights? i do feel in this conversation, we are also kind of blurring the lines between what we mean by

sex trafficking, and sex work. which is a really important distinction to make. depending on who you are, typically who you are status-wise, whether you're seen as a sex worker or victim of sex trafficking changes. it's really dangerous, especially when we're talking about black women, girls. and voluntary and involuntary is important. >> the critical flaw right now in this conversation, is no sex work advocates here. we have to also recognize na trafficking happens across different types of labor. and the violence that sex workers are facing happens across different types of labor as well. the criminalization does not help. and i think the people -- the reason is that people can't separate the demoralizing behind whether sex work should be existing. and i don't think wall street should exist, but i think workers should be protected. i think that's what we have to tease out.

>> andrea, can you just sort of button it up by talking about the sort of distinction between criminalization and legalization? >> sure. when you're talking about decriminalization, you're mainly focusing on nonarrests. what that means is, law enforcement come across a young woman, and yes, over 90% of the girls that we serve at fair girls are young women and girls of color. when you're talking about legalization, then you're involving the state. you have a situation where you can organize this top level, and it's controlled in a different way than decriminalization. decriminalization strips away the fear of arrest. that's really what the amnesty policy is looking at. i wanted to point out here in the district of columbia where we're based, we're seeing a shift with law enforcement in continually not arresting those who are on the streets, either identifying a sex worker or potentially being exploited trafficking victim.

instead they're turning to service providers to link the young girls and boys up to services while they focus on the pimps, who are the real criminals. and while this is a relatively new effort, and a long time coming, we would like to explore this further and explore this model of decriminalization to see if it's going to work. >> i'm sorry to have to cut you off there, but that is our time. thank you to andrea, and to michael, and chloe and amy. that is our show for today. thank you at home for watching. be sure to be back in nerdland next week when janet and murray will hold down the fort. melissa will be back a week after. now it is time for a preview for "weekends with alex witt." >> i'll have a tough following that. you did a great job. >> thank you. the plane crash in southeast asia. a plane takes off and vanishes for hours. where it was finally found. donald trump face to face

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