the nominee. no question. >> we have to end it there tonight. thank you for joining us. chris hayes is up next. trouble in river city. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. so ladies and gentlemen, is donald trump the music man? is he just some traveling troubadour that comes to town? is he a real live professor hill promising to bring us a boy's band with 76 trombones? or is mr. trump something different in american political life? a candidate who has not just figured out what ails the country, but what will cure us. and is in the process of giving it to us straight. what is trump, the same old same old in politics, full of empty promises or something new here.

a true phenomenon. michael steele, paul singer. anyway, in trump we trust. donald trump has dominated the republican field on all the big issues. catch this. 34% of republicans say trump is the best candidate running to handle the iss%hs/-jeátt(s immigration. he's got a 32-point lead over jeb bush who is at a distant second place. one in eight republicans and republican leaders think bush will solve the problem. republican voters apparently like what they're hearing from trump on the subject of illegal immigration. here he goes. >> i will build a great, great wall on our southern border. and i will have mexico pay for that wall, mark my words. we have drug dealers coming across, we have rapist, we have killer, we have murderers.

they have to go. >> what if they have noplace to go? >> we'll work with them. either you have a country or don't have a country. let me go to john walsh. joan and michael steele and paul. joan up in new york. of the people that care about illegal immigration and don't refer to it as undocumented workers, who really don't like illegal immigration, this guy seems to be scoring. >> yeah, because he's telling them what they want to hear, that it's going to be an easy problem. that proposal would create essentially a police state, to round up and move out 11 million undocumented immigrants and possibly their american-born children. >> so who else has a solution to illegal immigration? >> good question. >> well i asked the question, i want an answer. who has a good answer to those who are concerned about illegal immigrations. most people in most countries do worry about it. they're not all feverish about it.

what do you think is the solution to illegal immigration? >> the senate worked hard on a bipartisan bill that wasn't perfect but that was going to make a difference. and you know, the answer is definitely not rounding people up and putting them on cattle cars and. >> i'm just trying to get to the point why i think he's popular. what is out there that would stop illegal immigration besides him talking about it? >> i think we've done a great job stopping illegal immigration, actually. it has slowed down. >> stopped? >> i don't think you can ever stop it, chris. i'm not sure people can stop it. people are washing up on the shores of greece. when people want to get someplace, they get in. >> you think that answer will sell with people, they've just got to live with it? >> well, i'm not running, you know. >> i'm asking a journalistic question. name anybody else who is talking about a way to stop illegal immigration. i just want to make my point. maybe i'm being too rough here.

but what is the alternative to donald trump if you want to get rid of illegal immigration? who is the alternative? it ain't jeb bush. >> no, it's not jeb bush. but this is not a simple question. if you're asking me does anyone else have a simplistic answer -- >> no, any answer. paul, your turn. who else is offering a solution to the person angry about illegal immigration? >> that's two different questions. >> how is it different? >> right. >> because the question is do you want to solve immigration -- >> who has an answer? >> or do you want to solve the outrage? marco rubio was part of this bill -- >> where is he now? >> and walked away from it. >> who is out there saying they're going to do something about illegal immigration? >> well -- >> you try. anybody up here? >> you guys have been way too polite. the answer is no one, period. no one is answering the question that the american people want asked. if you want to get a sense of why he's connecting on this issue, read his eight-page plan. i read it again today. i was sitting there going, i get

it, i get it, wow. >> but you can't do it. >> you can't do it. >> no, there may be parts of it you can't do but there are aspects of that plan that you can do. >> wait, okay, wait. >> and that's what people are excited about with him. >> when you say people and chris, several times this is what the american people want. michael, this is what the american people want. no, it's not. this is a quarter of the republican electorate which whittles down to 10% of what the american voters want. if you want to talk about who panders to voters who don't understand the problem and don't understand how to solve it, it's trump. >> no one else but -- >> don't confuse that. >> rallying the base of the -- >> illegal immigration. >> but obama -- >> what's his plan? what's his plan? >> he said he was sending troops to the -- >> come on, troops to the border. you and i would get through the troops. >> he's tripling border enforcement. >> they did stop the flow of

children. >> you know what the dirty little secret is of the republican party and "the wall street journal," i hope you're listening, top of the editorial page, they want illegal immigrants because they want cheap labor. they don't want them here on compassion. they want the guy across the border next week and ten years from now because that guy will work for the cheapest amount and work the hardest. that's what they want. the democrats want the votes. that's why a guy like trump who may well be a demagogue is saying something that people can hear. joan, you're right about the numbers, but the people on the right that will decide this nomination certainly loud and clear saying trump is the only guy they believe in. >> then they'll lose the election. >> see what hillary has to say about it. >> that's if hillary is the nominee. >> three people out there with guts to stand up on the senate bill who are even involved in politics today. lindsey graham, of all people, has been solid on this, the late ted kennedy was solid on this, and chuck schumer who i disagree with on other things was solid on this.

trump runs ahead of the field, again 45% say -- i find this hard to believe, too. he's the best candidate on the issue on the economy right now. he leads bush by 37 points. trump has promised to make everyone rich. i know it sounds absurd. 8% trust mr. establishment, brother and son of presidents. 8%. that's nothing. look at trump, 45%. let's watch him. >> we're going to be thriving as a country, thriving. it can happen. i will be the greatest jobs president that god ever created. i tell you that. i'm really rich. i'll share you that. and by the way, i'm not even saying that in a brag -- that's the kind of mind-set, the kind of thinking you need for this country.

so we've got to make the country rich. it sounds crass. somebody said, oh, that's crass. it's not crass. >> this is so close to the "music man," he comes to town. i'm going to get a boys band with the uniforms. give me the money. in this case, give me the votes. but regular guys and women say that guy's really rich. he must know what he's talking about. look how rich he is. you tell me why they believe him. >> it's the voice of winning. how many people do you know that have that kind of confidence, i'm going to make us great. america, go get them. >> the other guys don't did that. >> we have problems, the government's not doing it right. things aren't proper. there's fear abroad. >> mike, you're the republican here. what is it in your party that's so hungry for a little rah rah. >> you're talking aboua base that's been lied to for 30 years, about jobs and the

economy, lied to about health care. they've been told all these things were going to get fixed. elect us and we'll take care of it. we'll give you the supreme court to deal -- and none of it's come true. along comes trump who, you know what? they're lying to you. i'll tell you straight up what i'm going to do and how. >> we'll see. trump's the most trusted republican candidate when it comes to handling isis. this guy has no military background, no diplomatic background. beating bush 2-1, mr. establishment. let's watch how he talks. >> i would hit them so hard and so fast that they wouldn't know what happened. i would bomb the hell out of those oil fields. i wouldn't send many troops because you won't need them by the time i get finished. you go in and knock the hell out of the oil, we take back the oil. >> it will take ground troops. what you're talking about is ground troops.

>> that's okay. >> you know, you got to sympathize with chuck todd there because he says this stuff and what is your next journalistic reaction. let's go into how much ordnance it would take and what's your targeting method here and who are your ground spotters to tell you where to hit. those are normal questions. but with him just bomb and turn them into a parking lot. >> ground troops, we'll throw ground troops in if we need them. >> what about the people in the country that aren't just isis. we can't just blow up the whole country because they have isis there. >> why it works is because across america in living rooms that will be watching donald trump talk about this, someone just turned to a cousin or husband and said, you know what you do, just bomb the hell out of them. >> who is oom? >> on them. and trump comes in there and says what the brother or uncle says 20 minutes ago. that's the connection.

real, authentic, what people are thinking. >> he's saying exactly what your crazy uncle says. you're right. >> not your crazy uncle, joan. again, that's the -- >> that is crazy. that's crazy, michael. just bomb the oil fields? >> let me ask you something, a hard question. i don't know the answer yet, that's why i end my show tonight with it. every couple of years somebody comes along, some character with a shtick and he has something to offer and it sounds great whether it's 999-cain or briefly michele bachmann? is he one of them? i'm going back and i want to set this up a little bit. when bill clinton said that barack obama who really is a phenomenon in american political history, a phenomenon, his name and background, the whole way it sort of worked for him, even though working better than ever. remember how bill clinton, oh, he's just jesse jackson. some of the old characters, old people.

like everything else. i remember this in 1942. i'm so tired of people saying he's just another whatever. i think he's something different or maybe the times are different. but there's a hunger for something out there, and this guy's offering up at least the snack, at least -- what do you think's going on? you're as good as i am at this. >> i think he's something different. he's not herman cain, or michele bachmann. he has staying power. that big debate we all watched and marco rubio was the winner. he barely moved in the polls. nothing is seeming to matter. these guys are lifeless and wan and sad. >> wan. thank you, a word, wan. the word is wan. i keep saying a hot knife through soft butter. >> we waited for trump's numbers to drop after that debate, and they didn't. >> a lot of us waited for john kasich to zoom, but people didn't see it.

you're all part of america's pastiche of wonderment here. >> i'll get out my dictionary. >> coming up, no surprise here, senator bob menendez under federal indictment right now and facing huge legal fees has come out, big surprise here, against president obama's nuclear deal with iran. he says it's a matter of, excuse me, principle. hmm. we'll talk to a former president of a group opposed to the deal that quit because he supports the agreement, the nuclear deal with iran. democratic sources tell nbc news today that joe biden is not ready to challenge hillary clinton for the democratic nomination. stick with us for that. biden is fascinating. clown car tuesday. jeb bush is behind the wheel. he says taking out saddam hussein was a good deal even if it cost 200,000 lives and gave iran control of iraq and led to the creation of isis.

finally, a historic fact of things that actually happened in american politics, not always rational, smart or necessarily sane. this is "hardball." today something entirely new is being built into bounty. dawn. new bounty with dawn. what a novel idea! just rinse and wring, so you can blast right through tough messes and pick up more. huh aren't we clever.... thanks m'aam. look how much easier new bounty with dawn cleans this gooey mess versus soap and a sponge. thank you! new bounty with dawn. available in the paper towel aisle. obviously!

hillary clinton took questions from the press out in las vegas today. and she defended her use of e-mail while secretary of state in a tough exchange with reporters. here she is. >> the fbi believes that you tried to wipe the entire server. did you try to wipe the so there would be no e-mail. >> my personal e-mails are my personal business, right? so we went through a painstaking process and turned over 55,000 pages of anything we thought could be work related. under the law, that decision is made by the official. i was the official. i made those decisions.

and as i just said, over 1200 of the e-mails have already been deemed not work related. so that's all i can say. >> did you try to wipe the server? >> i have no idea. that's why we turned it over. >> you were the official in charge. did you wipe the server? >> like with a cloth or something? >> no, you were the official. >> i don't know how it works digitally at all.

the agreement that has been reached failed to achieve the one thing it was set out to achieve. it failed to stop iran from becoming a nuclear weapons state at a time of its choosing. in fact, it authorizes and supports the very road map iran will need to arrive at its target. i have looked into my own self and my devotion to principle may once again lead me to an unpopular course. but if iran is to acquire a nuclear bomb, it will not have my name on it.

>> welcome back to "hardball." that was new jersey senator bob menendez, the invited lawmaker who faces huge legal bills on corruptions charges. according to "the new york times" his legal defense fund includes support from some of the country's most prominent pro-israeli billionaires. despite loud opposition to the agreement, it's unlikely opponents can get enough anti-obama votes to override a presidential veto as senate majority leader mitch mcconnell conceded this week. three more democrats have announced their support for the deal. senators jack reid and sheldon whitehouse of rhode island. also today a nonpartisan group of arms control and nuclear proliferation experts backed the deal calling it a net plus for international nuclear nonproliferation efforts. one of the most prominent groups opposed to the deal suffered an embarrassing defection. its president.

when the bipartisan advocacy group united against nuclear iran decided last week to mobilize opposition against the deal with tehran, gary samore knew he could no longer serve as its president. he had concluded that the accord was in the united states' interests. gary samore joins me along with valerie plame who specialized in nuclear weapons. she signed today's letter supporting the agreement. give us your story, your account of when you decided to break with those opposed to this agreement. >> well, after the agreement was announced in mid-july, i took a couple of weeks to study it, =m weigh up the strengths and the weaknesses, and i concluded after looking at it, that the agreement, while not perfect, certainly, was acceptable in terms of preventing iran from building nuclear weapons for at least 15 years.

>> the opponents of the agreement, those who don't agree with president obama and including obviously chuck schumer and now menendez who has a couple of motives here, fair to say, they say they can get a better deal. bob corker who is not a bad guy, from tennessee, we can get a better deal. i wonder how that argument works to someone like you. can we get a table somewhere, geneva or new york and get together all the people including china and russia, not exactly the bobbsey twins and cut a better deal? who believes that that's feasible or plausible? does anybody really believe that or is that a red herring? >> i think people genuinely believe it, but i think it's a risk certainly if we reject this in the near term it would create disunity in the coalition that created the current agreement.

it would at a minimum lead to some erosion of sanctions. the iranians would take advantage of our rejection to unfreeze elements of their nuclear programs, so they would advance further in terms of bringing additional centrifuges online and so forth. at the end of the day, you might get back to the bargaining table after some additional time and additional economic pressure, but i'm not convinced you'd be able to negotiate a significantly better deal. and many of the critiques of the current agreement call for measures that i think are probably not attainable in the absence of much more pressure such as a military ultimatum, which this country's not prepared to issue. >> i'm not even sure the hawks are willing to say that. oh, yeah, sign this paper or we'll blow you up. sort of like luca brasi style. i'm not sure we'll pull that number internationally. anyway, we're not that kind of country. valerie, great to have you on.

an area you've been an expert in. not how you are well known. but you were outted as a special agent. but this is your specialty. tell us how you look at it and how you look at it now, the deal. >> good to be with you, chris. as it turns out, i just came from lunch with a noble laureate nuclear physicist murray gell-mann. he's in favor of the deal. that's good enough for me. i don't know who is advising senator menendez. i would not question his motives, but he's wrong. because the truth is if this deal does not go through, it is not approved, israel and the united states will be isolated. iran will continue with its nuclear program. there will not be daily inspections, robust verification and what mr. samore just said, the sanctions will go by the wayside, maybe not immediately

but already our allies in this, russia and china as well as many other countries are looking to get in and take part of the iranian economy. >> let me ask you first, then back to mr. samore. valerie, i know you so i can call you valerie. can we actually watch this verification? is this something we have to trust them for or we don't have to trust them, we just watch them? >> i don't think there's any trust. given iran's track record of cheating and lying on their nuclear program, it would be foolish to trust them. so what i'm impressed with is that the inspection of the monitoring system has a number of measures which i think will improve our ability to detect efforts by iran to cheat and, in particular, to try to build clandestine facilities to produce nuclear material. that doesn't mean you'll catch everything. no inspection regime is going to be perfect.

and certainly this regime is unlikely to be able to detect small scale research and development activities, but in terms of major substantial cheating involving production of nuclear material, i think the inspection regime is an asset. >> valerie, do you trust our ability to keep an eye on them? >> i do. we have absolutely state of the art verification inspections that are in place and will go ahead. without question, no one's saying that this is a perfect deal, but i disagree with those who say this is somehow overblown rhetoric, that the other option is war. it might not be right away but ultimately that's where the neo cons who brought us the iraq war will lead us. so if this falls apart and iran then will, of course, go back into their nuclear program and the neocons deja vu all over again.

we have no choice but we need to go forward. >> you don't have to think through the neocons. people out there saying they want to bomb now, right now. they're doing it right in the op-ed page, their favorite way of thinking. thank you very much gary samore for joining us and your courage and valerie plame for joining us again. we'll look back at the country's greatest storms. guess who is coming to tell us about it? a great guy. al roker. you'll learn something about the strange weather we've been having. when a moment spontaneously turns romantic, why pause to take a pill? and why stop what you're doing to find a bathroom? cialis for daily use, is the only daily tablet approved to treat erectile dysfunction so you can be ready anytime the moment is right. plus cialis treats the frustrating urinary symptoms of bph, like needing to go frequently, day or night. tell your doctor about all your medical conditions

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welcome back to "hardball". it seems extreme weather conditions are the norm in this country. in washington state close to a thousand firefighters battling wildfires that have consumed homes. in california more than 12,000 firefighters battling 18 active wildfires out there.

in idaho just last week a fire-nado was caught on camera. look at that. extreme conditions formed a flaming vortex that went hundreds of feet in the air. imagine looking at that. a nasa climatologist says we should we prepared for more epic weather coming. >> it's been building and building and building, and at this point it definitely looks like it's going to be the real deal. this potentially could be the el nino of our generation. >> today the national hurricane center says a tropical depression has formed in the atlantic. if named as a storm, it will be called danny. of course, next week marks the tenth anniversary of hurricane katrina that wrecked the whole gulf coast from florida to texas. here's a look back at the cruelest victim of katrina, the state of new orleans. >> there's a big part of this story that you can't pick up on television alone. when you come here you get that part of the story. the other thing you notice is

the absolute desolation. we've been driving in here for 20 miles from the outskirts of the city and there's no one here. imagine someone at a viewing when they've died and they seem like they're okay because they've been made up by the undertaker but they're dead, they're gone. that's what it felt like then. joining me is "today" show co-anchor al roker. his new book "storm of the century." the great gulf hurricane of 1900. al roker, an honor to have you on, sir. i have to let you talk about the hurricane of 1900, but i want to talk about climate change tonight. what's going on in a place like d.c. where we always like knowing it was going to be horrendous in july and august but at least predictability hot, humid, 100-degree weather. you can't even predict that any more. start with 1900. >> we start with 1900. this is still to this day, it is

the deadliest hurricane, natural disaster -- forget about hurricane. deadliest natural disaster this country has ever suffered. an estimated 10,000 or more perished in a town of 37,000 in galveston. the devastation was complete. cut off from the mainland, this sand bar that a hundred years earlier was occupied -- was a little outpost occupied by the pirate jean lafitte. and had become one of the most prosperous cities in america. in fact, there were more millionaires per capita in galveston in 1900 than there were in any other city in america, chris. >> there were hurricane deniers back then. just like today they deny climate change. >> exactly. the city fathers wanted to put up a sea wall. well, one of the preeminent hurricane experts, isaac kline, who was also in charge of the galveston u.s. weather bureau said there was no need, that there was a natural curve to

hurricanes and that no major hurricane would hit the texas coast. and, of course, unfortunately, on september 8th, that was proven wrong. by the way, chris, national hurricane center now naming tropical storm danny, our fourth named tropical storm this year. and it is expected to strengthen to hurricane strength by thursday. >> what do you say to the climate change deniers when they bump into you somewhere, because they think you believe this the science? >> i say you can deny it at your own peril much as the folks, the deniers in galveston did and 10,000 people lost their lives. i think that the deniers are behind the science and behind most -- most americans. i think you look at the surveys. most americans believe there is climate change going on. and they want something done about it. >> let's take a look at some of these deniers, among the 2016 republican candidates who

publicly deny the science you understand. ted cruz says he's got the scientific data to show we shouldn't even be worrying about it. here he is, cruz. >> they scream you're anti-science when in the last 17 years satellites show no warming whatsoever. >> more of this to feed you more of this. here's donald trump, al. take a look at this guy. we've got a whole list of these guys. >> it's freezing all over the country. you look at places like texas. they're setting record lows. and oklahoma where they never had problems, they have snow. >> sure. >> so what's gone on? and it's not the -- the hoax doesn't bother me. >> what do you mean hoax? >> it's a hoax. the scientists are having a lot of fun. >> jeb bush he's the sophisticate. he says there's confusion. >> it's convoluted. for people to say the science has decided on this is really

arrogant, to be honest with you. this intellectual arrogance that you can't even have a conversation about it even. >> yes, and -- >> go ahead, al. >> gravity, that's convoluted. >> let me ask you -- i want to use a rokerism here. in our neck of the woods, our neck of the woods down here in superhumid washington where it used to be you take a shower in the morning, you go outside, a hot wool blanket would be thrown over your head and you couldn't breathe for two months. how come it is not exactly like that any more? >> that's what climate change does, it creates instability. you look at what's going on in california right now. i mean, this is the fourth year and counting of a horrendous drought. we've got drought right now in the northeast. there's drought down in florida. and yes, you've got -- and by the way, houston set a record

for 95 plus degree days or more. i don't know what data mr. trump's looking at. but the fact of the matter is -- we don't just look at one place. you have to look at the globe as a whole. it's not just us. we have to look at the entire globe. and by the way, other countries have to do their part as well. we can't do this by ourselves. it has to be a global effort. >> you should be president. thank you so much, al roker. >> who can take the pay cut? >> don't talk down on that too much. did you make up the phrase "neck of the woods"? was that yours? >> no my grandfather used to say that. it's i believe an old colonial term. but he would say, hey, grandson, what's happening in your neck of the woods? >> i want to look up what a neck of the woods is anyway. al's book is called "the storm of the century." what a great book. he's taking david mccullough's job away from him.

vice president biden is not ready to run in 2016. that's next.

welcome back to "hardball." vice president joe biden has been thinking about jumping into the 2016 presidential race for the nomination, but today nbc news' kristen welker report that multiple people around the white house say it's unlikely that biden will run. a democratic strategist familiar with the thinking inside the white house says while the vice president is reaching out to allies and supporters, he does not seem to be putting together the ground game or taking the concrete steps that one would take to launch an actual bid for the white house. last night cnn reported there are concerns inside the white house about a possible joe biden candidacy. a newspaper in south carolina is pushing the vp to run. the editorial from the post and courier last week said, run, joe, run. time for the roundtable.

steven mcmahon, anne gearan and jason johnson, contributor to nbcnews.com. the fact, what do we know from inside and around the white house about this biden boot lick or bomb -- is it a trial balloon or what is it? >> clearly it is a trial balloon, but it's a different thing -- >> did he put it up, his son put it up, mike donnelly? i'm asking you, who put it up? >> all of the above. biden has a circle of devoted loyalists, many of whom would like to see him run. we have no indication from our reporting that president obama is among them. if the president wanted his vice president to be his anointed successor, we would know that by now. there's absolutely no indication that's the case. >> people loyal to obama are trying to do, kill the buzz or kill the prospects?

you can stop people from talking about it. does that stop joe from running if you stop people from talking about it? >> no, i don't think you can stop joe biden from doing anything. obama can't be seen to be squelching this, right? however, he's not encouraging it either. >> is he afraid this will hurt hillary? >> yes. >> if joe runs? >> yes. and hillary has clearly been selected as the most viable vessel for the obama legacy. >> was there ever a deal -- here's a great question. was there ever a deal -- when hillary gave that wonderful speech in 2008 when she left the campaign, it was more than just, gee, whiz, i lost, i guess the other guy won. it was warm, wonderful, it was even powerful. and i didn't know then but i always like to think about this thing. was she promised secretary of state at that time or was she promised something like it? was there a hint-hint? and this time around -- or maybe back then, did he promise it was her turn next? >> she certainly was not

promised secretary of state. that actually came as a surprise. >> was she promised it's her turn next? >> we would love to know. some people think that it's true. >> the answer, steve. >> i talk to people who are present in the first obama administration and asked them because a curiosity to me why is it so much of the obama machinery that moves so quickly and seamlessly to hillary. >> this time around. >> yeah, but started moving six years ago. and why did no one even consider joe biden. everybody said nobody thought biden would run. everybody loves joe biden. everybody thought he'd be a great president. everybody inside there believes he's been one of the best vice presidents a president could have. >> what's the age difference, five or six years? >> four years. and nobody thought he would run. now they're sitting back there, geez, we always liked joe. >> did he think he would run? do we know whether he had ever ruled it out? i think dick cheney probably ruled it out. >> i don't think you could ever rule it out.

when you finally get this close after so many times of trying, i don't think you can ever rule it out. it would actually help. hillary needs competition. i don't think she'll do well in this primary steamrolling every everybody. >> is that what you call this process, steamrolling? >> she's marching over everybody. >> he has ran twice before. once a long time ago and once more recently. as gene mccarthy said, it's easier to run for president than to stop. i probably said that too often, but it's true. i worked for senator kennedy. >> he ran. >> he ran. once you believe you might be president, you believe you joe probably did when he's not around. anyway, only next door to his office. up next, clown car tuesday. you know that. and driven today by jeb bush

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hillary clinton has broken with the obama administration on a new decision to drill in the arctic. clinton tweeted this morning, the arctic is a unique treasure. given what we know now, it's not worth the risk of drilling. that comes a day after the obama administration announced it would allow shell to drill in

the ocean. by the way, the former secretary of state has yet to take a position on the controversial keystone pipeline. we'll be right back.

it's clown car tuesday, of course, because it's tuesday. leading the convoy, jeb bush of all people, the scenest among them. the former republican front-runner -- former -- is defending his brother w's decision to invade iraq. he's calling the disastrous war a good deal.

here he was at a national security forum in iowa. >> isn't it also the case that had we not invaded iraq in the first place we wouldn't be dealing with this isis problem? >> look, who knows? it's such a complicated hypothetical. who knows? i can't answer that i'll tell you taking out saddam hussein turned out to be a pretty good deal. >> you know, you have to wonder just in the bush house where there's reasonable people like scowcroft and jim baker, they have conversations. he asks like they've never had it. that's not a hypothetical. we've been arguing for the last 15 years whether he should have gone to war. i was against it, he was for it, he's still for it but i can't believe he's bragging on it. why is he saying it's great -- 200,000 people are dead now. 4,000 americans are dead. we have given iran iraq. we've given the entire officer corps to isis. and he's saying it's a good deal. >> it's cowardice and a bad strategy.

>> because he's afraid of the right? >> you mentioned family. he needs to take the old brother on the lake and say "look we have to separate." >> you mean fredo? >> he has to treat him like fredo. at the end of the day if he doesn't separate he can't win the primary. >> but fredo was praying hail mary when he -- [ laughter ] >> you have to separate. you have to give him the kiss and break away or it won't work. >> carly fiorina has leveled the harshest attacks on hillary clinton of any of the republican candidates calling her untrustworthy, unaccomplished and calling her a liar and she sure did at the republican debate. but buzzfeed uncovered a 2008 video of fiorina as a surrogate for john mccain and when she praises clinton. here she is and the clip. >> i have great admiration for her because i know what it takes

in some small measure to do what she has done. she is obviously incredibly intelligent, focused, tough, determined, empathetic of all the tens of millions of people that she was trying to represent in her quest to become the first woman president of the united states. and as a woman i take great pride in the fact that hillary clinton ran for president. >> she's no part of the sisterhood of the pants suit or whatever it is. she's wonderful there and now she's terrible. what do you call her now? what is this about, this breakup? >> well, i mean, it's politics, right. what's funny to me is that her spokeswoman was saying "she doesn't remember saying that" apparently she said it like eight times. >> isn't video great? >> it's fantastic. and there's actually a quote from carly fiorina about how great hillary clinton is on the wall in the clinton headquarters and carly fiorina's --

>> i don't know, it doesn't surprise me. it does somewhat depress me. when you build somebody up that much, stick with them forever. at least a couple years. >> it isn't very often that one piece of footage can be a primary and a general election ad and that footage can be both. >> thank you. great to have you on. steve mcmahon, i guess biden isn't running according to this crowd. when we return, things happen in american politics that aren't always rational or smart and not even necessarily sane. you're watching "hardball," the police for politics. i hate cleaning the gutters. have you touched the stuff? it's evil. and ladders. sfx: [screams] they have all those warnings on 'em. might as well say... 'you're gonna die, jeff.' you hired someone to clean the gutters. not just someone. angie's list helped me find a highly rated service provider to do the work at a fair price. ♪ everyone can shop, but members get more with reviews,

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♪ let me finish tonight where i began. i'm going through what most of you are going through right now -- a bit of wonder. we know on the facts not to take donald trump seriously. on the fact he's told us, for example, that the president of the united states was born in some far off country, that his mother baked up his iowa birth certificate as a pineapple pie to confuse those. yeah, it was part of this woman's plan along with marrying a guy from kenya and naming the kid barack hussein obama to make her son president of the united states. so on the facts, at least the facts of national american politics and people who put a great deal of importance in getting the facts straight, donald trump has not made a great first impression.

that said, i have loved following american politics all these years for two reasons -- one, you can learn enough to know the patterns of the thing, the ways people get ahead in this business, how they make alliances that bring them into power, how they deal with enemies, how they make deals and make big names for themselves so there is an art if not a science of the business of getting yourself elected and keeping power. but there's this other thing, this wondrous fact that occasionally people don't do what they're used to do -- like when the republicans start acting like democrats now and have a wild free-for-all for their presidential nomination or when the democrats begin now to act like republicans simply asking whose turn it is. well, yes, the wild does happen, like it did in 1964 when the republicans picked barry goldwater over the nationally popular nelson rockefeller. like in 1972 when the democrats picked george mcgovern over the much-admired edmund muskie. so before the masters of the political guild rule mr. trump out of order, think about the historic fact that things actually happen in american

politics that are not always rational, not always smart, not even necessarily sane. that's "hardball," thanks for being with us. "all in" with chris hayes starts right now. tonight on "all in,". >> this is a constitutionally protected right. >> republicans line up on either side of the latest immigration conflict brought to them once again by donald j. trump. >> you want to get rid of birth right citizenship. >> you have to get rid of. yes, you have to. >> tonight, why even the candidates' rebuttals are bad politics. >> as to the 11 million, let's be practical. then the resurrection of repeal and replace. >> we have to repeal and replace the health care law. >> repealing obamacare entirely. plus new footage of black lives matter activists meeting with hillary clinton. >> look, i don't believe you change hearts. i believe you change laws. >> reporter: and things get rough on the campaign trail. >>