with them, too? >> and the mega turnout for supposed gop front-runner donald trump. >> and why black is the new black. >> one thing that is constant when changing the constitution. good morning to everyone out there and thank you for joining us. lately the republican party primary has felt more like a constitutional law class as they've all been weighing in on the 14th amendment to the u.s. constitution. yes, that is the foundational 1868 ruling granting citizenship to everyone, quote, born or naturalized in the united states. and that clause was originally written to establish that all formerly enslaved and free african-americans were unquestionably citizens. and since then courts have read it to mean anyone born on american soil is automatically an american citizen no matter who their parents are or where their parents came from.

while it may be news to donald trump, that has been the precedent for more than a century. as the supreme court held in 1898, the 14th amendment affirmed the fundamental citizenship by birth in the most explicit and comprehensive term, end quote. but donald trump and many of his fellow republican presidential contenders are saying that's not how it should be. >> you want to get rid of birthright citizenship? >> you have to get rid of it, yes. >> i propose we join every other developed country in the world, save one, and put an end to the automatic citizenship for children born here to illegal immigrants. >> i think that's something we should, yeah, absolutely going forward. >> we should end birthrights? >> to me it's about enforcing the law. >> i'm not a big fan of the idea you come here, have a child, you're automatically a citizen. >> it doesn't make any sense to me that people can come in here and have a baby and that baby

becomes an american citizen. >> birthright citizenship is a forgiveness. the child is here now. the child is a citizen. i think if you have an open border, that's a mistake. >> we should end granting automatic birthright citizen ship to the children of those here illegally. >> it's a long list of people holding that position. because of the precedent here, the federal precedent i was just mentioning before the supreme court, to change this would basically require a constitutional amendment. while that amendment is not likely to get very far, you'd need a super majority in the congress and the state, it is worth pausing to understand just how radical this trump approach would be. i don't mean radical on today's political spectrum left and right. i mean radical as compared to every other amendment involving citizenship or voting in our entire history. look at it like this. of the 17 total amendments passed since the bill of rights, seven governed citizenship and political power, give or take. every one of those operates not

too narrow what it means to be an american but to protect and expand it. the 26th amendment ratified in 1971 lowered the voting age from 21 to 18, expanding the franchise to 11 million people at the time. the 24th amendment, 1964, allowed all eligible people to vote whether or not they had the means to pay those poll taxes. the 23rd amendment, 1961, the first time people living in the nation's capital had the right to vote in presidential elections, so that was new for them. 1920, the 19th amendment, gave women unquestionably the right to vote, expanding the franchise to 20 million people that year. 1913, the 17th amendment allowed voters to directly elect their u.s. senators for the very first time, removing that power from state legislatures. the 15th amendment back in 1870 gave the right to vote to all citizens regardless of race or color although, of course, we know the imposition of jim crow laws in the south curtailed that, a battle that continued

for another century. but the bigger point here is all of these amendments enhanced the legal definition of who is an american. who exercises power in our democracy and, thus, essentially who belongs? and that brings us back to the 14th amendment ratified in 1868 which for the first time in our nation's history gave american citizen shship to black america 4.9 million of them in 1870, whose compelled labor built the u.s. into an economic powerhouse, who had been bought and sold, who were not counted as full people, as 3/5 of a person in our original constitutional compromise. they finally became scitizens fr the very first time under the is 4th amendment's guarantee of citizenship to people born here regardless of who their parents were. and now 150 years later we find ourselves talking about whether to revoke that constitutional guarantee mostly because of this guy, republican presidential candidate donald trump and last

night he reiterated his claim that birthright and citizenship is in his view stupid. >> so we have 300,000 babies a year. 300,000 that you have to take care of. we all have to take care of. and, you know, in the case of other countries including mexico, they don't do that. it doesn't work that way. we're the only place just about that's stupid enough to do it. >> joining us now to deal with that stupid, jamal green, professor of law and vice dean at the columbia law school. also with us juan, president and general counsel of latino justice. good morning to both of you. jamal and janet will be with us all two hours as co-host. donald trump says it's stupid. we just walked through the history. what is going on that mainstream figures and conservative

politics want to go this far backward? >> well, it's a good question. usually when conservatives talk about the constitution they say, well, we can't change this document. we can never change it. but suddenly when it comes to the 14th amendment and a provision of the constitution that's expanding rights to people of color, suddenly it's an archaic document, we have to change it and amend it. >> can you think of anytime we've had an amendment to actually narrow citizenship or political power like this? >> no. as you mentioned in the leadup, all of the amendments that deal with what it means to be an american, questions of citizenship, have been expansive. there is a constitutional amendment that restricted rights and that was prohibition. we repealed that shortly after. it's not been our tradition to restrict rights of the constitution. >> i find it interesting this idea that we're trying to restrict instead of expand the idea. i want to bring you in here. some of these people are saying that we don't actually have to

change the constitution to revoke birthright citizenship. is that true? >> it's inconsistent with every case. going back to the 1800s, a child of chinese parents in the united states to be a citizen of the united states because it was born in the united states. not only inconsistent with what the letter says, as jamal says, the actual meaning, it will be inconsistent with every decision by the supreme court. >> this is an important conversation but this is being brought up in such a silly way with donald trump. as you're explaining the federal precedent doesn't match what he's saying. it's the way that he has this fantasy baseball approach to politics, anything he doesn't like he pretends it isn't there. >> sure. >> i do want to be fair to the republican field and show --

although there were many candidates who feel this way, jeb bush has staked out a little bit of a different ground here. let's look at that. >> look, this is a constitutionally protected right, and i don't support revoking it to suggest that people born in this country are not united states citizens and they don't have this in the constitution, i just reject out of hand. >> there's not only a bit of an ideological division here, there seems to be a division with dealing with facts as they are. jeb bush, whatever you think of his politics, seems to understand the history and the precedent you just referred to and donald trump either doesn't or doesn't care. >> because he think it's a quick fix. he can do it tomorrow if he wants to. let's just pass the law. sign an executive order. it makes no sense. it's a constitutional amendment. the last time this country signed an amendment was the women's right to vote. it was a long, arduous, and

lengthy process. >> jamal, if we didn't define citizenship as birthright, how would we define it then? >> the main alternative is defining citizenship based on whether your parents were a citizen. that's how some other countries do it. i just spent time in japan. it's difficult to overstate how much that goes against the american tradition of saying we don't define citizenship in eth any sized terms and bloodlines and racialized terms. the dred scott decision of 1857, which is what the 14th amendment was designed to overturn did exactly that. if you're an african slave or descendent of an african slave you can never be an american citizen. we were trying to go away from that precedent with the 14th amendment, look, we don't do bloodlines here. >> you look at the scale of this. we were looking at this in our nerd land research, u.s.-born children with at least one immigrant parent, that's 15

million people. and we're thinking about that community, and so this isn't just rhetoric. at a certain point it's really concerning to have a political conversation saying we need to amend this to go backwards, to make these people un-american it seems to traffic the conversation that was the feeling appealing to some antiquated notion of white ethnic politics. >> bring your poor, your tired, your huddled masses. it doesn't say bring your right, your anglo-saxon, your protestant. that's the ideal the civil war was fought over. >> let's continue on this. we have a lot more to discuss so stay with us. the story of how all this radical talk about immigration can turn in some cases violent.

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in boston tuesday night two men were arrested for allegedly beating a homeless man so badly he was hospitalized. both suspects are white, the victim latino. massachusetts state police said the suspects targeted the victim because they thought he was an undocumented immigrant. police told the "boston globe" that one of the suspects allegedly said, quote, donald trump was right. all these illegals need to be deported. a spokesman for the state police declined to comment to us on "the globe's" report. we want to be clear we are not claiming trump's stump speech caused this alleged attack directly or indirectly, but rhetoric doesn't exist in a vacuum. words can matter. trump has built his presidential campaign on bombastic rhetoric, around immigration and immigrants. in his campaign announcement alone he declared that undocumented immigrants are drug dealers, criminals, and rapists.

and says we should build a big, beautiful wall to keep them out. here is how trump responded when asked about the boston attack at a press conference on wednesday. >> i think that would be a shame. the people following are very passionate. they love this country. they want this country to be great again and are very passionate. i will say that. >> we reached out to trump's campaign to clarify those remarks and asked, does your candidate believe that this is the right way for his followers to express their passion? soon after trump tweeted this quote. boston incident is terrible. we must respect each other, treat each other with respect. i would never condone violence. so, juan, for me as a writer, the power of words, i believe they carry something. so i wanted to know how much does a campaign's rhetoric -- a candidate's rhetoric affect

that? what is that power? what weight does it carry? >> it's not just candidates. it's every elected official who believes that being anti-immigrant -- so mr. trump is doing it because he's running for office. all these words, the rhetoric does not help. we can't make cause and effect as we said at the opening. we have to change the hearts and minds of americans, recognize the value that all immigrants give to this country. and we're not going to get that far if we continue to hear this rhetoric about generalizing an entire nation of mexicans as rapists is unheard of and uncalled for. it doesn't help move the dial. we expect more from our leaders and candidates for presidential office. >> we've been talking about the idea of the constitution. so what are the obligations of a public figure with their speech? >> it's a good question what their obligations are.

they, of course, have a right like anyone else has a right under the law to say whatever they want. the constitution gives you the right to make an ass of yourself if that's what you want to do. when you're a public figure especially if you're running for president you're really running, i think, to be grown-up in chief. the fact you're able to do something doesn't mean that it should be done. and it's very important for public figures to understand that they have a platform and people are watching and watching what they say and people -- donald trump talks about political correctness as if it's a dirty word. it's really just about responsibility. it's about being a respectful person, being a decent person and using that as an example. >> you mentioned political correctness and that's his intention. we have crimes of violence related to hate and racism and ethnic tension. hate crimes in 2013 against latinos alone, according to the fbi 331. so you're talking about that at

a daily rate and that's what's reported. of course we had this terrible incident of domestic terrorism and mass murder in a black church which exists in context. and yet when you look at what the candidates are saying there and sort of the mood of donald trump, what he's tapping into is something very different than that, a notion that the people are actually somewhat oppressed, are americans who feel whatever you want to call it, social pressure not to say certain things. every time he's called on things, this is political correctness. that was the start of the famous fox news debate fight where he said, oh, because he's being called on sexism that's political incorrectness. saying that anyone on your side is being victimized in a particular way and we've seen it before. this is not the first time we've seen it. >> do you think, though, he's

speaking to something on the other hand has resonance? i want to say what i want to say? >> his first remarks it was a shame. by the way, he's trying to say if the number of people follow me who feel this way and he's trying to reach those individuals, also a way to describe what is ridiculous so we're looking at a person who actually believes they are prepared to do anything to get the country right again. >> or make america great again. >> you have to put the great in question marks and then you're good. >> i want to thank jamal greene and juan cartagena for joining us. still to come, sex, drugs for ladies at long last but a new pill coming packed with controversy. and donald trump's big campaign rally last night. we've been showing you the pictures. what did you see, a stadium half full or half empty? watch as these magnificent creatures take flight,

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welcome back. we have a pretty amazing story and an update here on heroism abroad. two u.s. military veterans and another american civilian confronted and took down a dangerous gunman on a train in france yesterday. listen to this story if you haven't heard it. the gunman walked in with an ak-47, opened fire aboard a train headed to paris and wounded a passenger. the specialist alex scarlotto of organizational guard and airman first class spencer stone rushed that would-be terrorist and disarmed him. >> ran a good ten meters to get to the guy, and we didn't know that his gun wasn't working or anything like that. spencer just ran anyway, and if anybody would have gotten shot, it would have been spencer for sure. we're very lucky nobody got killed especially spencer. >> stone was injured but is expected to be all right.

a british man and a college student named anthony saddler held down the guardman until help arrived. >> this is a college student, my last year in college, i came to see my friends my first trip in europe and we stopped the terrorists. kind of crazy. >> joining us now from london is nbc's kelly, the details pouring in about this act of bravery exciting a lot of people here and everyone glad there weren't more injuries. how are these people doing and what else can you tell us today? >> reporter: it's extraordinary, isn't it, the actions of these young men on this train from amsterdam to paris last night. the guys appear to be doing quite well if a little stunned by it all. in fact, two of them doing so well, those two there, anthony and alek that they're preparing to speak to reporters again in the next half hour or so. spencer stone, their friend, the member of the air force who was the first to go after the

gunman, is still in the hospital. he has a serious cut on his neck and also on his thumb. he was expected to have surgery, but fully recover. the mayor said that spencer is doing relatively well considering. anthony saddler's parents spoke from their home in california. they said they are stunned and relieved and can't wait to have anthony back home. >> as for the incident itself, he was having fun with his buddies and comes back france's national hero. i'm still wrapping my head around that. >> reporter: a british businessman also helped. he helped to tie up the suspect. all four of these men were given medals by the mayor and they have an invitation to meet the french president late they are week in paris. >> thank you, kelly cobiella in london. now to news here at home, the 29,000 firefighters battling

wild first across the west are getting expert help from across the globe. more than 70 firefighting experts from australia and new zealand will arrive in idaho tomorrow before being dispatched to california, oregon, and washington state. these crews are experienced in dealing with large wildfires on similar terrain. earlier this week three firefighters were killed in washington when their vehicle crashed and was overtaken by flames. joining me now is nbc's leanne gregg. leanne? >> reporter: yes, janet. resources have been a huge issue from the very beginning because there are just too many fires and not enough people even though they're using active duty military, national guardsmen, every wildfire crew in america is here somewhere in the west fighting a fire. it's still not enough. you mentioned the contingent from australia and new zealand. they will be a help.

unprecedented actions from the department of natural resources asking volunteers to join in this fight and they had a huge response, 3,000 people signed up immediately. today 200 of them will undergo some training for deploying emergency fire shelters and some other basics. they're really hoping to get people who are already certified firefighters and people who know how to use heavy equipment, that will be a huge help whether they are used and when they can be used, the volunteers, that is, will be based on firefighting personnel. those who can monitor them, take them into the areas, and direct them because that is an issue, just having enough people to do that. currently evacuation orders remain in effect for at least six towns and multiple rural areas. thousands of homes in this region continue to be threatened. they know homes were lost within the last 48 hours because of the huge wind that whipped up in

some areas gusting up to 60 miles an hour but at this point they just don't know how many homes. the fire behavior and performance and meteorology is now under investigation as it led to the death of the three firemen wednesday. that could take months. again, firefighters will be back on the lines today hoping to make some progress. janet, ari? >> thank you to nbc's leanne gregg. >> and now we are updated on the big stories. up next, donald trump takes alabama by storm. >> if it rains, i'll take off my hat and i'll prove -- i'll prove -- i'll prove once and for all that it's mine, okay? mkz sedan... ...the iconic navigator. and get a first look at the entirely new 2016 mid-size utility lincoln mkx.

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trump campaign is media buzz or his money or an unreliable polling surge. his event in alabama may have you rethinking donald trump's staying power. there's really no comparison to any other candidate in his party. you'd have to go to bernie sanders or, perish the thought, barack obama in 2007, to actually find a crowd count during a primary of crowds this size. the event was full of bravado. while 20,000 people is a huge show of force, that's just a political fact, trump aides still managed to undercut their own success with premature bragging and suggested he draw 40,000 and fill the stadium. that didn't count.

he did recount the interest. >> the hotel was great. they said something is happening here, we can't hold this. this is crazy weighs going on. we went to the convention center. we're all set and they said too many people. we can't put them in. so we came here. >> and joining me now on the trail campaign, you look at this, talk to us from your experience in reporting out there from the vantage point of a skeptical viewer who says, look, i get it, he's famous. there's buzz, but is this really a real political momentum. tell us what you found. >> reporter: you and i were talking before the event. there was a party atmosphere here. a lot of people i spoke to echoed the sentiment saying they

were there for the experience and to hear what he had to say. his policies on immigration, they talked about how he seems to support veterans. i was talking to one female veteran who says she feels he's the person to represent her and give her what she needs as a veteran and as someone who has ties to the military. another woman this morning while we were standing here said she missed the event, came right from work but just wanted to be here to be close to what she said was greatness. people are coming out because they feel he's resonating in a political way as well. one of the local officials said the unfiltered talk is getting through to people that maybe wouldn't be motivated by this process. i think when you see crowds of this size, i mean, i wasn't expecting to see thousands of people so early on especially in the late days of summer when the focus isn't always on politics

like it is for people like you and i. >> speak for yourself, ali. >> reporter: yeah, no. >> speak for yourself. i don't want to be profiled as a political junkie. i don't think that's fair. go on. >> reporter: you're right. i'm sorry to pigeonhole you. but really when you see crowds of this size coming out here, you really have to take a look at it in a serious way and say, you know, something is really building here and trump calls it a movement when we were up in new hampshire. i think that there is some believability to that. when you see people turning out, whatever their motivation to see him at this early point in the campaign is huge and it really is something we should be taking notice of. >> and that's the big political question. thanks, ali vitali, traveling with trump. we turn to bob franken, a veteran reporter who has covered many presidential campaigns. so we want your expertise here. does the crowd size and the field momentum present something of a turning point for a

candidacy that many had initially dismissed? >> well, is it premature to wonder who his vice presidential nominee is going to be? >> i think so. does it matter he can get people in states that are part of the gop primary calendar. >> well, i think that right now he continues to be in the minds of many, the flavor of the month. maybe the flavor of two months or anything like that. but he is also somebody -- and i'm sort of getting into janet's wheelhouse here, he's somebody who scores very high when it comes to the search engines, that type of thing. he hasn't really needed an organization. he's been able to rely on his celebrity. it was a masterstroke to have him in his jet to the stadium. there's a danger when you have to go to a stadium because some of the stories today we're talking about the fact that the stadium was half empty, not half full. and there's always a danger with that and look no further than 2012 and mitt romney where he gave a very important speech in

detroit about his economic plan and all that kind of thing, but he did it in a 65,000 seat stadium, ford field in detroit. >> we're putting up that footage in 2012. it looks silly. >> but you don't remember anything about that economic plan but you do remember everything about those 64,000 empty seats. that was a real mess-up when it came to the staff scheduling it there. >> but we do know in presidential politics, which is different than other races, when you run for the house, there is not as much emphasis in the media or political class on crowd size. it's not a dynamic. it is in presidential politics because of the necessity of f d finding people and turning them out in the primary. we know that barack obama's early crowds reflected something that hadn't caught up yet in the polls, was a big part of what they said was a movement

campaign. donald trump is doing something very different, much more top down, much more as a celebrity. take a listen to him invoking his crowds in new hampshire as a distinction with jeb bush. >> i love these rowdy crowds. isn't it great their smert? you know what's happening to jeb's crowd right down the street? they're sleeping. they're sleeping now. these are my people. >> bob, how important is it to his canned daytona that he invoke all these real people to distract from the fact in many other ways he's not like a lot of american voters being worth $10 billion and being a celebrity? >> he has marketed the fact from the get go and certainly now on the campaign that he is not like

the american people. he's more like their as spragss and he's been very successful with that. he's very quick to talk about how rich he is, how smart he is. we all know that. something coming from somebody else would antagonize people. they are loving it. as far as the crowds are concerned, he said it reminded him of billy graham who could pack a stadium, too, that kind of thing. right now i think developing crowds, attracting crowds is something that is self-feeding, self-fulfilling, and it means he can go out and say that he has a groundswell coming up. >> right, and that's something republicans will test when they vote. >> still to come this morning the little known political figure starting to give trump a run for his money.

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on may 9, 1960, a sexual revolution arrived in a tiny pink tablet when the use of a drug was an oral contraceptive called enovid. it gave women control over their reproductive health, to plan for or avoid pregnancy. nearly 40 years later in 1998 came the launch of what "the new york times" called the second sexual revolution, when the fda gave approval to drug maker pfizer to sell viagra. the main ingredient in the

little blue pill was studied for its ability to decrease high blood pressure but earned its reputation as a cure for male sexual dysfunction when it was discovered to increase blood flow. blood flow below the belt. in the first year alone sales of the drug that became known as pfizer's riser totaled $1 billion. that has been matched in one day by a new tiny pink tablet being welcomed by some as the next evolution in sexual healing. we'll tell you what it is, who it could help, and the controversy surrounding it when we come back. simpler faster sleeker earlier fresher harder farther quicker and yeah, even on sundays. what's next? we'll show you.

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welcome back. we're looking at a live shot here of a story we want to tell you about. we're expecting a press conference at some point in the next few minutes hearing directly from those americans who thwarted that attempted terror attack in france, a story we've been keeping an eye on and a harrows one.

now back to the discussion that janet kicked off on sex drugs. >> this week the food and drug administration gave approval to the drug who brought sexy back. the pill created by sprout pharmaceuticals will be sold under the brand name addyi beginning october 17. it is designed for women with hy hypoactive sexual disorder that cause as loss in libido unrelated to a medical or psychiatric condition. a 2002 study published by the national institutes of health reported the disorder may occur into up to one-third of adult women in the united states. while the tiny pink pill has been celebrated by some advocates as the biggest thing to happen to women's sexual health since the birth control pill, it doesn't exactly live up to the hype of being the female equivalent of viagra.

first, viagra fixing a mechanical problem by helping men achieve an erection. this targets the woman's brain to stimulate desire. it was seen as a failure there. no one is sure exactly how it turns women on but addyi increases the brain supply to dopamine and serotonin which is believed to flip the sex switch. a woman who takes addyi won't get the same sexual -- instant gratification delivered to men taking viagra. the drug must be taken every day to be effective. and in clinical trials women who were given addy ireported one more sexually satisfying experience a month than those who took a placebo. for women struggling with low libido may be better. it will be with the warning that

addyi has very serious side effects. addyi can cause low blood pressure, fainting, nausea, d dizziness. those side effects are part of the reason the fda previously rejected approval, not once but twice. the third time was the charm because of a lobbying campaign for women's health groups who believe the drug represented a step to gender equality, equity in sexual health. that campaign was funded in part by sprout pharmaceuticals two days after approved by the fda it was acquired by valeant for $1 billion. here at the table is emily

science that will transform your sex life. the president and ceo at black women's health imperative and from washington, d.c., cindy pearson, executive director of the national women's health network. does addyi live up to the hype? >> what the fda analysis found was 90% of the women who take the drug do not get any benefit from the drug. 10% got benefit. there's a small proportion who did experience some benefits. we want to go to france. they are addressing the press, let's listen in. >> tried to get him down.

>> as it happened, were you in fear of your own life? >> initially but then once you start moving you're not afraid anymore. >> when did you realize it was a possible terror attack? >> i stood up and saw a guy with an ak-47. [ speaking in french ] >> no, no, no, no, no. [ speaking in french ] >> they've shifted back into french. an attempted terror attack on a train yesterday in france. a man with an ak-47 barged onto the train, injured one person and three people, two american service members and a britt,

rushed him even though they didn't have weapons, beat him with his gun, subdued him. other passengers helped hold him down and the incident ended with a few injuries. no fatalities. could have been far, far worse. the two americans as chris norman, the britt i believe we're hearing speak right now although he's in french and we'll go back when he's in english, those three men being hailed as heroes in averting something that could have been much, much worse. we see a shot of them. in "the new york times" reading from it the suspect entered the train car carrying an ak-47 and a handgun. alek skarloto looked over and said let's go and rushed him risking their own lives trying to avert disaster. let's listen and see if they're going to english or not.

>> how do you feel? >> shaky. [ speaking in french ] >> they're still speaking in french. i want to be clear, they started in english which is why we listened in. again, more on why the story has captivated people really in europe and the united states, an attempted terror attack thwarted by these americans as well as a britt. one in the hospital recovering from wounds he sustained in thwarting the attack. a thumb injury and potential surgery. we are told he will be all right. reading more from what alek

skarlotos said, in recounting this story he said the assailant jumped, i followed behind him by about three seconds. spencer got to the guy first, grabbed him by the neck. i grabbed the handgun. from what little we do know about these events unfolding you would think that mr. skarlotos' military training helpful there. as for mr. stone, the other person who helped, he was sev e severely cut in the neck and hand but he's in a hospital in northern france. again, his injuries not life threatening. you can see on the screen on our upper corner, the other ameri n american, is said to be a hero, informs france as a student and joined in and helped out in this emergency. >> it seemed a powerful story of an exhibit of heroism, of course. terrorism is on top of people's

minds. >> as you say, janet, it's suspected terrorism when someone walks on a train, and we'll listen back in. i think they're back to english. >> salute the courage of the french train driver who was actually sitting in the row next to me. >> have you thought now that you've had time to absorb, have you thought what might have happened had you not intervened? >> now, yes. i don't know. it's very difficult to really understand. >> when did it sink in? >> when i tried to close my eyes last night. [ speaking in french ] >> what my family said to me? >> are you married? >> i'm married. my wife is looking after our two grandchildren. i'd like to get back to help

look after them and help her. >> have you spoke to your family? >> yes. >> what did they say to you about that? >> i don't really know. i haven't really spoken very much to them. i wanted to deal with that privately. [ speaking in french ] >> again, we're listening to a live press conference. we'll go back in live when it is in english. we've been talking about this big breaking story over yesterday and reaction is pouring in literally from all over the world.

the white house put out a statement about this saying we want to echo french authorities, president obama expresses his pre found gratitude attitude for the courage and quick thinking of passengers including u.s. service members who selflessly subdued the attacker, that's the white house talking about this and president obama having been briefed on it. while the investigation is in its early stages it's clear that their heroic actions may have prevented a far worse tragedy. we will remain in close contact as the investigation proceeds. that train was heading into paris and we know paris like new york city and many other parts of the united states, has experienced terror, has faced it, has seen it in various forms, bombs, guns, solo/lone wolf attacks. we've really seen this in a great degree of way. in the earlier investigation we can't say too much with the authorities not putting much out there with what the person was trying to do. let's listen back in to this

live presser. >> it was nothing more than that. we've seen enough of these kinds of attacks to understand that once they get started. my point of view, two guys who already started work iing tacklg him, maybe they needed help, and mine was purely survival. maybe i have a chance if i get up and i help as well. >> did he put up much of a fight? >> he put up quite a bit of a fight. but spencer stone is a very strong guy. they had a good go at hitting him. in fact, what i did, i helped hold his arm so he couldn't get hold of the gun.

>> listening to chris norman. this warranted potential terrorism on a train heading into france. he's been going back and forth from english to french. he said the reason why they were so willing to immediately rush this attacker who had an ak-47 and walked on the train they, quote, they will kill everyone when they get started. that was his assessment in the moment. obviously a quick thinking situation, janet. of what they had to do and paris has seen some of these attacks. i think many remember the isis sympathizers who used automatic weaponry to execute. they remember the "charlie help dou hebdo" attacks. he said, quote, this was purely survival.

that is something anyone can relate to and yet, janet, you just put yourself in a situation based on what we do know about it. a lot of people look up and see an assailant, they wouldn't know what to do. let's listen back in. >> we got him on the floor and i tied him up while alex went to look for other terrorists. >> what were you doing on the train -- >> no, i tied him up with a tie. [ speaking in french ] >> he was saying it was a survival instinct. quite honestly, i think that's wonderful. i don't know that everyone has that quick thinking ability combined with the agility to go when you're unarmed and confront someone holding an automatic

weapon. >> there always seems to be this thread between people who do heroic acts and there's this humility based there, right? oh, no, no, we were just going based on instinct. i agree with you, i don't think that many people's instinct would be to jump in and attack someone. he said held -- he, his part of it, talking about the incident, he help his arm so that the other guy could grab the gun. >> yeah. and so this was a quick thinking. we don't know much beyond the altercation about the motivations of this shooter when we talk about it being potentially terrorism. authorities obviously thinking of that possibility, an individual rushing a train. this is a high-speed train. chris norman speaking in french live about this amazing act. i want to read as well from secretary of state john kerry saying, quote, incredibly proud

of the three american heroes who subdued the attacker on the french train and wishing speedy recovery to those injured. earlier in the hour be in can confirm one individual in the hospital, one injury on the train, no fatalities which, again, the start of this story someone walking onto the train with an ak-47 to attack people and subdue with no fatalities, many calling that something approaching a miracle. >> and the climate in france, we have to also be clear, french lawmakers have passed tough surveillance laws in the wake of these attacks in order to hopefully secure their country and ensure that citizens feel safe at home. so could you just imagine being on this train that is a popular commuter train between france, belgium and the netherlands and germany and seeing something like this happen in this? >> i believe we'll go back to the press conference.

>> i think i'd like to leave it at that, thank you. no, i don't. >> we're seeing there the conclusion of really a dramatic press conference in arras, france. helping to subdue that attacker on the french train, the british civilian. he helped two take down a gunman traveling through france yesterday. if the u.s. servicemen come out and speak we will bring that as well. they're receiving praise, as i mentioned, from everyone from president obama to secretary of state john kerry. one of the other things i wanted to mention as we wrap the story, one of the other people on the train talking about this saying because of the way this attack began, being stuck on a train, you're obviously in a confined space, one individual said i thought it was the end, that we were going to die, that he was going to kill us all. we were all prisoners on the train.

it would have been impossible to escape that nightmare. that is why so many praising the heroism there. that is what we have so far. we will continue to stay on the story as we have all morning, janet. we want to take a quick break and then will reset. we have a lot more in our hour including some other stories of very different nature and a lighter note. we've been talking about the female sex drug. we have a lot of beyonce.

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welcome back. we've been following that breaking story in france, hearing from the individuals who helped thwart that attack. we heard from chris norman, the britt, recently and are expecting further statements from some of the american servicemen who also confronted that would-be attacker. we will bring that to you live

but also, janet, we want to continue with some of the other important stories also going on including the segment that we cut away from to take that live news. >> yes, before the breaking news we were discussing the controversial new drug addyi to treat low libido in women. here at the table still with us is emily na dpgoski from smith college and an author. joining us from atlanta is linda blount, president and ceo at black women's health imperative and from washington, d.c., is cindy pearson, executive director of the national women's health network. so, emily, i'm going to start back with you again. thank you for being so patient during all of this breaking news. we were -- i was describing how addyi seems to be something that's not so much fixing a physical problem like viagra with its instant gratification after popping a pill. addyi is something you have to take every single day in order

to achieve kind of what is a 10% increase? >> 10% of the women taking the drug experience at least minimal benefits and 0% of the women taking the drug experience not even minimal benefits. >> is it even living up to the hype of the female viagra? >> it is not as what viagra is supposed to do. it's not as remotely close to doing what it says. imagine if only 10% of people found the pill was minimally effective at preventing birth. >> so i wonder if it says something about our culture, right, the fact that we're making a big deal out of a 10% increase in this drug. cindy, i actually would love to bring you into this discussion. how much of demand for this drug is about a sexual dysfunction versus how women feel about the perception they may have a sexual dysfunction? >> that's a great question, janet, because so much of our experience of sexuality is

entangled with our experience of the culture around us at the time. 100 years ago women were criticized if they expressed sexual desire as that being abnormal. now with the development of viagra and now addyi, women are being positioned, some of them, to potentially feel an externally imposed problem. not to deny that some women themselves do experience lack of desire as a distressing problem. so it's not simple but you're right to point out that the external creation, the marketing, the hype is not going to play out well for all women. >> that's a great nuance that you bring into this. linda, your work centers the health of black women. does addyi, however imperfect it is, do some good for more research in conversations about what turns many kinds of women on? >> well, it does. it's a great start and it's a conversation we need to have but

i probably take a slightly different perspective on this. as an epidemiologist i look at what this may mean for black women. for hundreds of years black women have beenville andized. we've been perceived as hyper sexual or even over sexed. so my concern is with addyi or any effective drug that legitimately treats female dysfunction, black women may not get it prescribed because providers, physicians, are subject to the same negative perceptions as others and they may feel as though black women shouldn't have this or, frankly, don't deserve to have this drug. >> emily, what does the current -- the modern science and research tell us about where women are in terms of their sexual desire? i hear, what is the term about the hypoact ive sexual disorder. is that a real thing? >> so one of the difficulties is in the process of this drug being brought forward and rejected multiple times while that was happening, the american

psychiatric association's bible of diagnosis actually eliminated the disorder as a diagnosis. it doesn't exist anymore. it was replaced with female sexual interest and arousal disorder specifically because the science over the last 20 years has taught us is this standard narrative of how sexual desire works which is -- there's a cartoonist who illustrates it as a lightning bolt to the genitals, you want sex, you go and get it, it turns out that's just one of the normal, healthy ways to experience desire. there's responsive desire, spontaneous desire emerges in anticipation of pleasure. responsive desire emerges in response to pleasure and a lot of people who were participating in the drug panel actually had that intact so it's solving a problem that isn't actually a problem, it's just not conform to the cultural narrative. >> taking that point to linda and then cindy, speak to the context of the power and

economic dynamics in this type of research because we all know -- put the sexual issues even to the side, we know generally a lot of the pharmaceuticals pursued are the ones thought to be profitable. and there seems to be that dynamic that then feeds into, linda, what you mentioned first which was some of the other bias that may exist, speak to that in the context of a drug that isn't for everyone. but is coming out of imperfections to begin with. >> you're right. there is big money in pharmaceuticals and, frankly, if we had a drug that we knew was effective not at 10% but at 90% there would be plenty of women lining up to get the drug but the concern that we have is how this study -- how the research takes place. we have 28 drugs on the market for men. one now for women. not much money relatively speaking has been put into this research. so clearly there's a great opportunity for more serious

research from academic institutions not just pharmaceutical companies to investigate what women need. women are very different. we're very complex. our sexuality is very complex and you think about black women who have on average a higher level, the drugs people are pursuing need to take that into effect. they need to take into effect the experiences of black women so that we can make sure that they're effective for black women and for all women. >> i really do hope that the interest in the drug does push forward in terms of more research around women's sexual desire. >> thank you to linda and cindy and, of course, here in new york, to emily nagoski. >> an interesting discussion. thank you for hanging with us as we balance the breaking news. also still to come, they've proven they can do anything that their male colleagues can do. will the history making women soldiers serve alongside men in

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listen to what is involved in the ultimate endurance test. 62 days, 49 push-ups, 59 situps, a swim test, land navigation test, obstacle courses, air assault on helicopters, a 12-mile foot march in three hours or less with a 35-pound rucksack, carrying soldiers on your back, scaling mountains and slogging through swampy terrain in florida. i'm he can haexhausted just say. first lieutenant shea haver did it along with 94 of their male counterparts making them the first women to ever complete the most demanding combat leadership

course the army has to offer. they are both west point grads, were among a group of 19 women who began the course and the only two, the only two to complete it. at their graduation ceremony yesterday in ft. benning, georgia, they received their coveted black and yellow u.s. army ranger tabs, a mark of distinction described as proof positive of proven leadership under the toughest conditions possible. they hail from the elite army ranger school, the school's first ever gender integrated course which began april 20th. on thursday during a press conference in ft. benning, they spoke for the first time since overcoming the last hurdle of the course. a 25-year-old apache helicopter pilot, chose why she chose to attend the punishing ranger school. >> the reasons why i chose to come were the same as these men here, to get the experience of the elite, a leadership school the army has to provide to give

me the opportunity to lead my soldiers the best i can. we didn't come with a chip on our shoulder. i think we came our best prepared we could possibly be. >> captain grace, a 26-year-old military police platoon leader from connecticut, who has served in afghanistan, talked about the impacts of their achievement. >> i do hope with our performance we've been able to inform the decision what they can expect from women in the military, that we can handle things physically and mentally on the same level as men and we can deal with the same stresses the men can. i was thinking of future generations of women. i had that pressure on myself. >> the course based in georgia and florida includes training in the woodlands, mountainous terrain and florida swamp lands. out of 400 soldiers including 19 women only 96 soldiers completed the mission. there are no modifications for gender in ranger school said a

commander of the airborne and ranger training brigade. >> each and every one was treated as a ranger. it didn't matter if they were a male or female, they were treated the same. i'd be proud to serve along each and every one of the ranger graduates tomorrow in combat or elsewhere. the women impressed me. they met the standard and they are ranger qualified individuals. >> despite the honor, despite all they endured, the two women cannot aemploy to join the 75th ranger regiment, an elite special ops force. women are not allowed to apply and serve in position that would put them in direct frontline combat. a u.s. army spokesperson told us in 2013 then defense secretary leon panetta, formally lifted the official ban on women in combat. however, all branches of the military have until january 1, 2016, to decide which position, if any, they want to keep off limits to women. despite being barred from combat

positions, women have served in hazardous jobs and found themselves in combat. a total of 161 women have been killed in action in iraq, in afghanistan since 2001. more than 1,000 were wounded in action. captain griest spoke thursday about the lack of women mentors in the military says she may pursue civil affairs, a unit under the special operations umbrella that is currently open to women. first lieutenant haver says she will continue her role as an aviator and serve as far as leadership will allow her to. joining us now former captain in the u.s. marines and founder of the service women's action network. and joining us from atlanta, georgia, anna, defense and national security correspondent for the christian science monitor. and from washington, d.c., jesse jane duff, retired for the u.s. marine corps and a senior fellow at the london center for policy

research. first of all, thank you so much for being here. i want to start with you because i know so much of your advocacy and your work in your organization is about gender equity specifically within the armed forces. does this path clearing work when these two women -- does it help eliminate any of the barriers that are going on right now in the armed forces? >> it does. it's a huge game changer and i want to say these women have relieved generations of work and collective trauma on the service women's community. we are elated and so proud of them. they accomplished the requirements of ranger school at the same standard, the same level, the same thing guys did. as you mentioned, that's part of the story that they won't be able to go on and be assigned to the ranger regiment if they choose to. that's really the final bit of the end of sex discrimination in the military, it's up to secretary carter as to whether

he wants to allow women to be assigned to the jobs that they've qualified for by the standards of these schools. >> and so what factors would you say -- i would love to bring anna into the conversation. what factors should president obama, actually the secretary of defense, consider in making that call? what are those parameters? >> well, i think it's what we heard in this press conference. you know, when you look at these women and what they've accomplished, you heard their ranger buddies say in essence these women did everything we did. they carried the big guns when they asked each of their teammates in their unit, listen, can you haul this load for a while? and they said, no, listen, we're too tired, but these women stepped forward, we can carry the load. we can plan these battles and so i think when we heard, you know, these two women talk yesterday they said we hope this -- what we've accomplished about inform this discussion, the fact that we've gone through this program and not only have they met these

standards but you have all of their ranger buddies, almost to a man, saying they did it. we were right here beside them, and we would be proud to fight alongside them any place anytime. >> and, jesse, as a retired marine, i'd love -- i know you have a different point of view on this. i'd love to hear your position on how far you believe women should go in terms of combat and the front lines. >> i really appreciate that everybody is so supportive of women. i think that's commendable and particularly these two women who are west point graduates, but they have to understand close to 95% of the army that was surveyed, the women do not want to be in ground units that are in combat roles. women have served in combat but fighting in combat, kicking down doors, is completely different. and what we have to remember, we are going to send these women to be the tip of the spear, we do not have any long-term combat operation

operational data on women, and their rates of attrition, discharge essentially, many women and any woman who served in the marine corps can tell you we have a very high attrition rate just in our officer candidate school. it can be as low as 40%. but for physical disability or injury is three times that of males. women sustain 167% increase in injury. so here is my question to everybody. it's not about what she wants or what we want, it's for the best interests of our readiness, and i've seen nothing that tells me that a woman in hand-to-hand combat with isis is going to have a higher rate of survival than that of a man. they fight on methamphetamines. in fallujah i saw marines and soldiers killed. if you want to stick them in that cage like mma against a man, you're basically advocating for women to be murdered, raped, and killed by the enemy. >> let me ask you this and then bring in anu as a response. when you say all that, wouldn't

that logic you provided go how you deploy and whether women are up to these standards as we've been reporting they are rather than having a blanket and total ban and 161 women, of course, already have given their lives in afghanistan and iraq. we pay the ultimate price, they pay this price, why not let the military decide case-by-case rather than saying never. never a woman. >> let the military decide but that's not what's happening. the military is being pressured to make the decision. the marine corps said they are considering lowering the standards. equal opportunity doesn't exist on the combat field. you want to be the best when you go and swing that first punch. >> let me take it to anu for a response, lowering standards. your response? >> the marine corps has its own separate set of problems. it is right now the backwards force in the military. they are not -- they're not

interested in meritocracy. there's a story you're not hearing much about because the marine corps doesn't want the media to know much about that. we're talking about two women officers who graduated ranger school which is a phenomenal thing and really shows that women can lead, they are leaders in the army. on the marine corps side we have almost two platoons worth of infantry women who can do the job. it's the schools, it's military leadership that determines what makes an infantry men and so all of a sudden people are saying these schools don't count. standards have not been lowered. these women can do the job. these myths about rape on the battlefield really are a thing of another era. a bygone era. >> a final word here.

>> what's best for the military. the military has had a voice in this and they've said essentially we need these women on the battlefield and our current wars, these women can go where we can't go. working with special forces in order for us to be able to do our jobs at war. why should they not have this training that's only logical and they've proven they can do it. >> i want to thank anu here in new york city, anna from atlanta, georgia, and jessie. there's so much to unpack. stay with us. later in the show we have a whole panel devoted to beyonce and how she's changing a lot more than just music. 3 million lines of code, 40,000 sets of eyes, or a million sleepless nights. whether it's building the world's most advanced satellite, the space station,

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now we turn to an update on

new details emerging into how two veterans and another civilian confronted and took down a dangerous gunman on a train in france yesterday. in a "new york times" report one of the men involved explained how it went down saying the suspects entered the train car carrying an ak-47 and a handgun. i looked over at spencer and said, let's go. and he jumped. i followed behind him by about three seconds. spencer got the guy first, grabbed the guy by the neck. i grabbed the handgun. that is specialist alek skarlotos talking about spencer stone and how they disarmed that obviously dangerous gunman. stone was injured but it expected to be all right. a british man, chris norman, and another american, anthony sadler, a college student, helped hold the gunman down until more help arrived. >> just a college student, my last year in college. i came to see my friends on my first trip to europe and we stopped a terrorist.

kind of crazy. >> we are wait to go see if two of the three americans will speak. kelly, what do we know about how everyone is doing right now? >> reporter: well, the two americans who were not hospitalized, alek skarlotos and anthony sadler, appear to be doing well, possibly a little stunned by it all. but well enough to potentially speak to reporters in just a little bit. a member of the air force, stone, is still in the hospital today, expected to undergo surgery for a cut to his hand. the mayor of france said he's doing well considering. anthony sadler's parents spoke from their home in california earlier today saying they are stunned and relieved. they can't wait to have anthony back home.

>> he leaves here a young man on an excursion and comes back france's national hero. still wrapping my head around that. >> reporter: as you mentioned we heard from the man who helped to hold down the suspect and as he put it tie him up with a necktie. he also says that he was tha thanking alek skarlotos and saying without them i don't think i'd be here today. he said his first reaction was to sit down and hide but when he saw them go for the gunman he thought i'm probably going to die anyway. maybe i have a chance if i help. ari? >> incredible story. thanks to kelly cobiella for following it. what do we have next? up next we explain why the big fashion mags say this fall black is actually the new black. ♪ (ground shaking)

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this week the september issue of vogue hit newsstands and none other than nerd land's favorite queen b faced the cover. beyonce did not grant "very long" an interview making her the only cover star in at least five stars to evade a "vogue" reporter. beyonce had an essay about her star power in a cover shoot video released on "vogue's" website. the lack of an interview is not the only thing that makes it special. most "vogue" cover girls have been white. beyonce is only the third black woman to be featured on the magazine's coveted september issue in the 123-year history. at least five other black women are members of the september cover. only 14% of major u.s. women

were on the cover. this year serena williams won the title of cover star for new york magazine's fall fashion issue released last week. kerry washington handled "self" magazine's cover. >> that's a nice one. >> it is. i know you love her. sierra on "shape" magazine. beyonce has appeared on two other covers, and serena, kerry and been on numerous fashion mag covers in the past. the list goes on. the september issue carries a certain distinction as noted in the september issue. >> one in ten american women, almost 13 million people will get a september issue of "vogue." >> september is the january in fashion. >> i love that sound bite.

the "vogue" september issue is known in the fashion industry as the fashion bible and is sometimes filled with more than 800 pages of cover story material, articles, fphotos, photo spreads and of course ads. september issues are a big deal for readers. "vogue" for example, has an average total circulation of more than 1.2 million. as stated in the documentary the september issue leadership shoots up to nearly 13 million for "vogue's" september edition, right? that's a captive audience, a 13 million potential customers for the companies advertising their products in the fashion books. so if it all boils down to revenue, perhaps this year's striking display of black women september cover is this. they are bankable. that's the thesis most exemplified by the major sales rihanna brought in for 19 magazines in a year span between march 2014 and march 2015. when the singer was on the march

2015 cover of "harper's bazaar" sales increased by 0.8% and that is a huge jump. >> it could have been the shark, though. >> it could have been -- yes. maybe jaws. maybe shark-nado. who knows? but this is a huge increase for an industry typically plagued by declining revenue. when she was on the cover of "vogue" in march 2014 she beat out the taylor swift team selling 11.2% more magazines. that is bankability and perhaps the power and presence of black women could spark a change in the fashion world. joining me now is the editor in chief of "ebony" magazine and vp of digital contempt and one of my loves, and joyce chang, editor in chief of "self" magazine. so i want to start with you. your cover just came out for a september issue with, what, is

that seven, six black new supermodels, up-and-coming, who are killing the scene. what is it with magazines that are not targeted to a black audience like "ebony" that is making them recognized or at least put black women and women of color on the cover of their magazine? >> you know, i thought about it long and hard. i really don't know. and i say that because there have been moments in popular culture where black women have led. quite frankly the last 25 years have been led by -- janet jackson, let's say, she never made a "vogue" cover there were huge moments in black female life in america and how we kind of shaped the cultural paradigm. so what is it that is making this moment so keen for everyone? beyonce's a hung x-factor. she really is the queen of the universe. >> it's an outlier. >> but what she indicates and she symbolizes is permission for other publications that don't

typically cover women of color to say maybe we can take a chance. i worked at the magazine for four years and i think we did one cover that featured as cosmo girl that featured a black woman and, you know, not only that, i was only one of maybe two women in the building who were black, who were making editorial decisions. >> and i think that is a powerful distinction. we have two editors in chief of magazines, major magazines, who are women of color. how important is that to have a staff that is as diverse as its readers? >> i think it's important to have every kind of woman at the table. and at "self" what we want to cultivate is a strong sense of self. and certainly that comes from within. but we recognize that there are many external factors that also influence your sense of self. we want our readers to feel their strongest, their best,

their most beautiful and most comfortable in their own skin and so we chose kerry for our september issue because she is kerry washington, because she handles everything, because she has an amazing hit show that millions of viewers watch and because she takes care of herself and makes time to be the person she wants to be. but, of course, as a person of -- who grew up, it's in the back of my mind we want to reflect the world that we live in and i think as the world becomes increasingly multicultural, we want to make sure we give platform to a wide array of -- >> when these issues particularly hit all at the same time particularly for this month, i was shocked because i grew up with -- i grew up in a magazine/journalism, that's what i studied. that was my masters degree and i heard the myths that usually black girls go on january or june and july, which tend to be the fill-ins. i wonder what it is about this

climate. is it empire? is it all of those convergence of shifting dynamics? >> it's happening on television, it's happening in music, it's happening -- actors, singers, rappers. there's nicki minaj. all of these moments that come back to black girls at center. what's interesting to me how black women affirm themselves. black twitter, all about black girl magic. we're filling in the space when these moments don't happen. for us at "ebony" and other black magazines we're doing this every single month. we're making these affirmations. it's interesting for me to be both -- i'm a magazine aficionado. i love magazines. i have since i was a very young girl. but there's a time twh you're actually making magazines that you do say to yourself, what is it that we have to do to really drive home the importance of black life, black culture?

what is it that it will take for other publications to understand this isn't just a once a month thing, it's not a once a year thing, rather. >> and we want to go to a conversation about beyond just the cover but the actual content of these magazines. what's inside these pages? that's what's next. yoplait greek 100. the protein-packed need something filling, taste bud loving, deliciously fruity, grab-and-go, take on the world with 100 calories, snack. yoplait greek 100. there are hundreds of reasons to snack on it.

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well, several black stars covered this year's september issues, a casual flip through the magazine reveals that hundreds of pages of advertisements, articles, and spreads are overwhelmingly white. some magazines may include articles that feature blackness, but seem to specifically address phan black readers. take, for example, the "allure" hair tutorial displaying a curley fro kind of like mine modeled by a white actress and a headline that read "you, yes, you can have an after trow even if you have straight hair."

"allure" gave a statement to buzzfeed which read "in this story we show women using different air styles as an individual expression of style. using beauty and hair as a form of self-exsuppressionpression o happening in our country today it's creativity that is limitless and wonderful." but what happens when magazine covers mirror the diversity we see across the country while magazine content lags behind. so with me is kyrna and joyce from se"self" and "ebony" magazines respectively. how do we move beyond tokenization of a star and have it reflect the content. >> i am very happy with "self." one of the most common comments i get from my readers -- i have been at "self-"for a year now

and it has been a top priority for me to represent the world we live in in the ages of the magazine. so they often comment at how diverse the pages are for us. and tokenization is something that as a minority myself i would never want to celebrate anyone simply by virtue for the color of their skin and i would not want the same. people often ask me, you know, how do you feel about being a representative of the asian american community and everything i do i do because i love doing it. i don't do it because i'm asian, i do it because i love why i do and the reason why keri washington is on the cover is because she's an amazing star. and within our pages all of the content, all of the entrepreneurs we features, all of the models we feature, they represent a healthy balanced life-style which is what we talk about at "self." >> i want to know if there's a little bit of a tension of what's important in the culture and the politics.

because the political space if you talk to black activists or civil rights activists, there's an obvious rejection of any attempt at so-called color blindness because of what is it's associated with, a conservative attempt to push off the uncomfortable conversations and challenges that need to be dealt with by attending to race. but when you look at the september issue and why it matters, it's precisely, i have heard from some, because beyonce is there not as a black woman, as you mentioned in some other month and not put in some box or category but just there as this incredible obviously fashion forward cultural icon who also happens to be black and it's important to her and part of who she is but it is not otherize ord compartmentalized in that way. is there tension there and when you think about it with "ebony" being in a different place than the september issue, how does that shake out and since we're not hearing directly from beyonce as much lately, we don't know where she came down on that. >> i dare not speak for her.

but i guess i have to process that because for me race does inform and i believe as editors where where we comes from informs decision making. it's lovely to see joyce as an editor of a national magazine that speaks to all kinds of women because that's not typical, that's very atypical. it comes back to my central issues that the decision makers tend to look alike. there's a certain -- there's no accident that people reflect the things that are important to them and the things that are familiar to them. but magazines getting it wrong didn't just begin. i remember in the '90s, maybe the late '80s but there was a magazine that featured locks and it was a white girl and a poodle. the faux pas have been happening because the editors have not refler reflected all of america for a long time. this is very new.

i'm afraid this is just a season and that we don't know when we'll get this again. and i'm here to represent black magazines who do this and are committed to recognizing the importance of these women every single day. >> an important conversation, a lot of nuance. thank you so much to keirna mayo and joyce chang. that's our show. ari and i will see you again tomorrow morning 10:00 a.m. eastern. now it's time for a preview of week ends with with alex witt. page hopkins is filling in. >> thank you. the accuser takes the stand in the prep school rape trial. what her testimony meant to her case and what to expect when the defendant takes the stand. ted cruz goes up against the star of "juno" over same-sex marriage. and the painted women of times square, does their lack of outfits cause controversy or is it much ado about nothing? we'll look at that. i'll be right back.

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