jeb bush and donald trump are going at it. they're exchanging insults on twitter, posting negative fvides about each other. earlier today we went on the street and we asked people, is president obama a muslim? >> is president obama a muslim? >> i don't know. shoot. >> he probably, is right? >> i said i don't know. >> is president obama a muslim? >> christian muslim. >> what does that mean? >> he's a muslim but he's a christian muslim.

>> kind of like a jew for jesus. it's very common. very diplomatic. >> oh, my gosh. it's not friday, right? it's close. getting close. how are you doing? >> on set we have mike barnicle and you were really making fun of lewis there. >> yeah, you were. >> a little bit mean. i'd like to see you try it. >> mike, mika, a big day yesterday. i think "the new york times" reports securing the votes needed to save the iran deal. >> we'll have more on that in a few moments. i can't get my eyes off the image next to that of the migrant child,.3-year-old boy. >> there is a more horrific picture than that that they chose not to display which is

the body of the infant alone in the waves as the waves crest up over the body. it's horrific. it is horrific. the situation is horrific. their inability to deal with it is horrific. >> i'm absolutely stunned by how badly europe is set up to handle this crisis. and they've got to do something. the idea that you get into one country, you can move freely across, what, 28? >> yeah. >> and it's just -- this is a crisis that's going to continue until europe changes their rules. it's horrific. it's heartbreaking. >> we can address that with some of our guests today. we certainly should. we have a lot of politics to cover this block as well. the republican party is closing in on donald trump. we'll see what happens with that. but first, former top hillary

clinton staffers are expected to take questions in private from the house benghazi committee starting to day. cheryl mills and jake sullivan will be questioned behind closed doors but another former staffer has indicated he will plead the fifth to a congressional subpoena. he worked for the clintons during her 2008 campaign and at the state department. he's been identified in digital records as the person who set up her e-mail server. in 2009. now his lawyer said he would refuse to testify. they called his decision disappointing and said they urged him to testify. a campaign aide told nbc news, understandably, he may not wish to be drawn into a political spectacle. but wouldn't it clear things up? >> if you're pleading the fifth, that has nothing to do with politics. that has to do with become afraid you may say something that will incriminate you criminally. >> i think that if -- i mean if

he could help clear things up for her, it would make it much less of a spectacle. >> can we think that? >> he's worried about it being a spectacle, you don't plead a fifth. that's his constitutional right to plead the fifth. but you can't plead the fifth to try to stop yourself from being charged or going to jail. and then say well i'm doing this for political reasons. no. just the opposite. that's what the aide said, right. >> so reuters reports that so far they have found 87 e-mail threads with information given from high level foreign officials from prime ministers to spy chiefs. reuters reports the sort of information must be classified from the very start and handled through secure channels. >> here's what's really interesting. john heilemann, you look at the documents now that they're looking at, the e-mails that hillary clinton sent out yesterday. it wasn't classified when i sent it or received it. there was nothing marked on it.

it's because they were generating it as they went. but what happens in this process is they'll go back to the date that it needed to be classified by. they weren't classified at the time and they classified it later. they didn't see it to classify it. if you look at the dates, they go back to the original date, the second it was sent. >> yeah. >> it was deemed classified. this entire argument is just absolute nonsense. >> well, to me the most striking thing -- i read that story that first made this point. it took me a little while to understand what was being said. it is complicated, at least for mechlt. >> the clintons are suggesting -- but for people that don't understand and what it means is the clintons -- the time it wasn't important. it wasn't classified. no. the agencies are saying actually

it was important from the second you sent it. if things changed to make it more important later, they would have marked the date when it became vital. >> again, to me, the easier thing to understand is they just for simplest way to put it in some cases, there are kinds of communication that take place where it's automatically classified. if the secretary of state has a conversation with a foreign head of state or another foreign official and is then sending an e-mail about it a private communication, that falls into the car gotegory of automatical confidential material. those are things across government regarded as by definition classified. and now there appears to be a number of e-mail that's fall into that category according to reuters. >> right. mike barnicle, hillary clinton doesn't need to see the latest take of "i spy" or watch the james bond movies to know that

87 e-mails or threads with information given to high level foreign officials from prime ministers to spy chiefs. mika read that reuters investigated. you don't need to know -- you don't need to go to a spy museum to pick this up. >> i agree with that. listening to the conversation for the past three or four minutes, think about it. can you really blame brian pagliano for taking the fifth? he's an i.t. guy. he doesn't work for the secretary of state. he's not working for the campaign. he's an i.t. guy. >> he set up the server. >> so if you want to get involved in all of this, i'm sorry, i take the fifth. >> and presumably he has a lawyer saying, sir, this would be the prudent thing for you to do in this situation. he's sitting there saying okay. you want me to take the fifth, fine. that's what my lawyer says to do. >> like that guy said, it's his constitutional right. that's fantastic. but he's not doing it because of

a political spectacle. he's doing it was the fbi is investigating and the news just keeps getting worse every day. >> a new poll suggests hillary clinton's image is still on the decline. "the washington post"/abc news poll released yesterday shows 53% of respondents with an unfavorable impression of her. that is the highest of clinton's unfavorable numbers that have been in this survey since april of 2008. she also seems to elicit intense views from respondents. in a new poll, nearly four in ten said they had a strong unfavorable view on her. the good news for the clinton campaign, she is widely popular among democrats. her favorability number in her own party is at 80%, 10 points higher than vice president joe biden. speaking of which, the vice president traveled to florida yesterday amid mounting speculation about his plans for 2016. in a speech at miami-dade college, biden spoke at length

about education and general community colleges as a whole. but he couldn't help but crack a joke about the elephant in the room. >> let me say to all of those of you who graduated from high school and had -- took some time to get back. it takes a lot of courage. it takes a lot of courage when you've been out of school two, six, eight years to say, you know, i'm going back. i'm going back. and people aren't -- who aren't willing to risk failing never succe succeed. by the way, it's amazing how good this school s look at all the press we attracted. they're interested in community colleges impress me greatly. and i hope that's what they're going to write about. when there's been serious economic or social turmoil, we have been able to move forward. because people believe that

there is an american promise. there is an american dream. that if, in fact, you do all you can, you do all you can and play by the rules that you can get ahead, that is the american dream. there used to be a basic bargain in this country. accepted by democrats and republicans since the late 30s. that if you contribute the to the productivity enterprise with which you worked, you got to share in the benefits. you got to share in the profits. >> what do you think, mika? >> i hope he runs. i look at that and i think he might. from things i've heard, i think he might. >> yeah? john heilemann? >> i don't think he's going to run. >> you don't think he's going to run. why's that? >> i think that there's -- the reality is that there's a very narrow path for him.

there's been clear for the last couple weeks that there's not -- some of the people think there is sympathy appetite for him in the party that at this moment there still really isn't. there's a lot in the democratic party that is basically saying, we love you. and there is some scenario in which it may make sense to be in this. but right now she's still very strong within the party. it's pretty late. i think this human element of can get his family onboard, can he get himself to the point where he can still overcome the great degree of grief bessetting him, i think it's still too much. >> even with the "washington post"/abc poll we've shown today and the last several months about hillary clinton's favorabilities declining, trustworthiness in the tank, democrats still love her. they are surrounding her. they are defending her. 80% approval rating within the democratic party.

there's not an -- there's an opening if joe biden can magically jump to the general election. but he can't any more than jeb bush can. and the democratic party still loves hillary. >> 80% is a good number. the vice president travels every day, every moment of every day including yesterday to florida as a member of a club that nobody wants to join. a father, a parent who buried a child. and it's with him every moment of every day and i don't think he has the energy to conduct a presidential campaign which is, as john pointed out, as we know is all consuming in terms of the time and in terms of the drain that it takes upon you, the candidate as well as your family. >> well, to day the vice president will speak to jewish groups in florida and then he heads to georgia to talk about the iran nuclear deal. so he's got some energy. i'm not sure about that. i don't know.

i guess we wouldn't know. >> none of us know. >> i would guess he doesn't even know. >> correct. >> i think he's going out. i think this is a test run for him to see am i up to this? do i like this? will this revitalize me? there are two arguments. one is the tragedy of beau's passing is so terrible that he feels like he needs to stay at home with the family, with the grabbed ki grandkids. i think it's much more plausible. this is what he does. it's what he's done. and he knows that he's going to be better off -- i'm not speaking for him, but he probably knows he's going to be better off going out, staying busy, doing what he loves, fighting got fight, fighting the good fight that beau asked him to fight than sitting at home and staring at walls and --

>> one of the things people close to him said he does think back to the other tragedy in his life when he lost his wife and baby. throwing himself into work back then was part of how he recovered from that. and so there some of that where he thinks that's how it was -- when that happened, maybe this is the right way to proceed this time. that's the countervailing force to all the sadness. >> look at this interview last night with the "boston globe" last night. senator elizabeth warren spoke about her meeting with the vice president. she had that meeting last month. take a look. >> you met with joe biden the weekend before last. >> i did. >> how did that meeting come about? what did you talk about? >> he called and -- >> he called you personally? >> he did. actually, he called me twice. called me once, call me twice. and invite med down. we had lunch. and we talked about policy. we talked about what's happening to america's middle class. we talked about the direction that this country has been going

in. we talked about the capture of this country by those who have got money and power. it was good long rambling policy. >> was there any talk of a joint ticket even jokingly? >> it was not -- it was a long conversation. >> wow. that's kind of a surprise. that's the furst time i saw that. john heilemann? that is quite a surprise. >> i mean, incredible. >> that's incredible. >> either -- if actually there was such a discussion and for her to say that is incredible. and if no such conversation took place for her to say that is equally incredible. >> i'm not sure which one is more incredible. >> they're both -- either way, it is sort of incredible. >> yes. >> he who does not deny admits,

i think there was a latin phrase. >> i love watching the two of you. >> that is surprising. >> it's one of the rare moments in politics where somebody is asked a revealing question and does not react by just shutting the whole thing down. >> wow. >> let's now go to the other side of the aisle. let's continue to fly on the gop primary. jeb bush is launching a strategy of taking down trump. >> really? >> i think he might not abalobee in trying to do this. his campaign put out an online quiz that hits donald trump for advocating that hillary clinton negotiate a deal with iran and mo mocks his fear of germs. you would rather support a candidate that shakes hands everywhere or is a germ aphone when it comes to shaking hands. for his part -- i'm going to tell you why in just a moment. for his part, trump attacked bush yesterday for speaking in

spanish on the campaign trail, "i like jeb. he's a nice man. but he really should set the example by speaking english while in the united states." >> you know this is such a gift to hillary clinton. >> oh, god. >> this is such a gift to hillary clinton. >> i think there is something there. i don't want to say what it is. it's a foghorn. and donald trump is now also turning -- >> by the way, we had somebody on the set yesterday. when they watched jeb speaking in spanish and this talks about people look at things differently. >> that was yesterday. >> and somebody was shaking their head going, i can't believe he's being so stupid to speak in spanish. while i was thinking that's the greatest damn thing i've ever seen. if i ever ran for office again,

i would love to be able to speak spanish. this is the future of america. this is america's future. it's not speaking spanish. no dumb people out there, joe scarborough says speaking spanish is the future. no, i'm not. but it's who we are. it's who we are today. it's who we were with the germans came. it's who we were when the italians came. it's who we have been for 240 years. >> but it also at least for me, it gets to the embarrassing fact that the vast majority of americans don't speak a second language. you go overseas, people speak spanish and english. they speak french and english. >> right. >> some of us can barely speak -- >> we speak american. >> yeah. jeb bush is speaking two languages, good for him. >> yeah. >> when you look at the fact that the republican party winning the white house, jamie,

depends on winning hispanic votes and when you get like 26% of hispanic vote, you lose. you're fired. you're out of here. and that's what happened to mitt romney. donald talks about mitt romney and what a loser he was and how he let us down. if he had gotten the same percentage of hispanic voters that george w. bush got, we would have been talking about mitt romney's first term right now, jamie. this is simple math. demographics is destiny. you can't defy it. >> well, i think trump knew that at one point as well right after the 2012 election. he talked about how mitt romney was too mean on immigrants. obviously his plan where he's going deport 12 million illegal immigrants and then bring the good ones back is just unworkable. let me give you a counter argument to what trump criticized jeb bush about.

i'm kind of fine with jeb bush kind of giving a speech in spanish. there is a sense though for even those like myself who favor some type of comprehensive immigration reform that would legalize most of the 11 million illegal immigrants in the united states that part of this process you need to assimilate the immigrants into america's great melting pot. part of that is encouraging learning english even for the new immigrants that come. so there is maybe a spin you could put on this where he is saying, donald trump and i don't know if he is being nuanced here, part of this encouragement is not campaigning in spanish, campaign in english and have a common unifying language. >> it is just showing respect. when hillary clinton goes to the south, she remembers the southern accent that she had like 12 years ago or 15 years ago when she was in arkansas, or was it 30 years ago? nobody thinks she's a

southerner. it is just showing respect and showing we have a republican candidate who is not repelled by your very existence on our shores. >> i understand. i'm fine with jeb bush doing that. but there is a problem within parts of immigrants coming to the country where at least the first generation here, some of them they live in communities where they only speak spanish and they don't learn english and therefore it's harder for them to succeed that first generation by not learning english. >> i totally agree. but criticizing a candidate for going into a community and speaking -- >> i think there is a dog whistle there. >> he is making a nuanced argume argument. whatever you want to say about donald trump, nuance is not his game. >> i was being sarcastic about that. i doubt he is being a nuance here. trying to make the best out of his statement. >> i will say that in 1994 when george w. bush was running for

governor of texas, i traveled around with him. i was in brownsville, texas, with him and watched him on a saturday more thanning aning an soccer field and he wondered oren all day and spoke spanish to those people there and hung around with him. he had a little bit of spanish. i look at that and said this guy, he was welcomed there. i said this guy is going to win this texas governor race. this is an ability to campaign that is very powerful. >> right. >> his brother has it, too. >> do we know if the question was posed to him in span ish? >> i don't know. >> that's a good question. >> i think it was. >> trump is going to be meeting today in manhattan. and there is the issue that the rnc sent out a party loyalty pledge. so they're pushing trump to declare his loyalty. >> i think he'll sign it. >> and ben carson is raising so much money. just one other sidebar there. just so much going on in the republican side.

>> i'm telling you, the ben carson thing is crazy. >> and we haven't gotten to polls. >> a lot of people just love this guy. i think i would listen. if i needed brain surgery, i'd love him too. >> still to come on "morning joe" -- >> i don't know if i'd want him to be commander in chief. >> money is not coming from nowhere. he's got -- >> i know. listen, people love him. >> yeah. all right. the kentucky clerk refusing to issue same-sex marriage licenses faces a judge today. she's causing a split among the republicans running for president. she's got an interesting platform from which she judges people who marry. i'm just saying. plus, we'll talk to one of the candidates supporting her, mike huckabee. >> and a first hand look at europe's crisis and the fropt lines of the story behind the harrowing images is just ahead. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. let's discuss

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all right. it's 26 past the hour. let's take a look at the morning papers. the chicago tribune, a manhunt continues this morning in northern illinois for three suspects wanted in connection with the shooting death of a police officer. hundreds of officers, multiple helicopters and nearly 50 police dogs were deployed yesterday to search the area surrounding the spot where lieutenant joe gliniewicz's body was found. they have come up empty. authorities are also checking leads on social media as well. it comes as hundreds gathered in fox lake for a vigil to honor the fallen officer. >> joe was my best friend, my world, my hero, the love of my life for the last 26 1/2 years. he was my rock as much as i was his rock. every night he came home to me. >> a county clerk in kentucky is

expected in court today over her refusal to grant marriage licenses to same-sex couples. some activists branded her as a hypocrite bringing up the fact she's been married four time. kim davis is defying a series of court rulings because she says it goes against her religious beliefs and it's divided republican candidates running for president. >> there is a county clerk who is showing more courage, more conviction and more of a better understanding of the constitution than virtually any elected official in america than virtually any candidate for president and certainly more than many of the people who run our government in washington. i thank god for kim davis. i hope more americans will stand with her. >> i don't think anybody's going to have to choose between following their conscious and giving up their job and financial sanction. i think it's wrong to force christians or business owners in government today discriminate whether it's clerks, florists,

musicians or others. i think that's wrong. you should be able to keep your job and follow your conscious. >> while i disagree with the supreme court's decision, their actions are clear. i think in this particular case, this woman now needs to make a decision of conscious. if she prepared to continue to work with government and be paid for about it government in which case she needs to execute the government's will? or does she feel so strongly about this that she wants to sever her employment with the government and go seek employment elsewhere where her religious liberties will be paramount over her duties as a government employee? >> thank you carly fear reennen carly fiorina for not demagoguing the federal government and demagoguing something like this that is so patently clear that when the supreme court of the united states interprets a constitution

and it becomes the law of the land, the supreme law of the land, you can either follow it or you can leave your job if you're working for the government. now i personally think bobby agenda a jindal talked about a lot of different situations. i think a christian baker should not be compelled to make a wedding cake for a gay marriage any more than a black baker should be compelled to make a cake that they find offensive. okay? but we can have that debate. this debate is clear. she is a government official! the supreme court of the united states has interpreted the law and the constitution. i think they interpreted it wrong. i do believe that the federal

government shouldn't be in this business. it should be up to the states to make the decision. but once the supreme court speaks, opinions are irrelevant. you don't like it? elect a president and do it through the democratic process. this is outrageous. she is a -- she's overstepping her bounds much that's her business. she can leave if she wants to leave. but if you want to be president of the united states, i really would hope that you wouldn't be sending the message out that we only follow the laws that we want to follow. we only follow the supreme court rulings that we decide line up with our own individual beliefs. that's dangerous. and the republican party is driving, driving the bus over the cliff in august and early september and this s, dash,

dash, dash is going to blow up in her face next year. a lot of people cheering this are going to in january of 2017, they're going to have -- they're going to say how did this happen? we don't know how this happened. and they're going to be wringing their hands. come back to august and early september and roll the tape. and you'll see how it happened. this is outrageous. >> so now to wall street and what is haping up as another run -- >> i wants to be clear. this is outrageous that somebody wants to be president of the united states and they are saluting somebody defying the supreme court of the united states and ignoring what has been interpreted as and then becomes a part of the constitution of the united states. >> and mike heuckabee will be o the show today. >> and like forward to this

conversation. >> yes. >> yeah. >> he was cheering even more than bobby jindal was cheering. >> to wall street, attack rally helped the dow surge 293 points to rebound from a two day selloff. the nasdaq is now back in positive territory for the year. the u.s. futures suggest the markets will build on those gains today and all eyes will be on the weekly jobless claim numbers at 8:30 a.m. we'll bring those you to live. "the washington post" reports s.a.t. scores for the class of 2015 were the lowest since the test was overhauled ten years ago. >> you know what that suggests? >> bye-bye the s.a.t. >> donald trump is right. we need to make america great again. >> by the way, carly is getting ready for her s.a.t. she working on it. >> working really hard. >> we need to wear a cap. we need to get that cap, make america great again. i've given it to all my

children. they walk around with it. it pushes -- it pumps their iq up. >> they have red, white, and blue. >> all right. i need one for her to wear. >> she is going over all her s.a.t. prep in that hat. >> so the scores are down. what does that say? why is it important? because i took it. >> shower in it. >> yeah. they shower in it. jack is going to first grade in a make america great cap. >> really? >> you're not helping. >> you should make a make america great again lunch pail. >> you have to go to the campaign store. he's got it. >> coming up on "morning joe," president obama gets an unexpected lesson in fish biologiy. he dealt it with well. oh, my goodness. and later, oscar winning director is here with i had riveting new film on steve jobs.

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just sit there. >> up next on "morning joe," it's a mass exodus of biblical proportions. scott anderson is here with the jarring reporting of migrants pleai fleeing the middle east.

41 past the hour. the migrant crisis overseas has reached tragic new levels this week. as we report, there is no signs of a letup any time soon. we want to warn viewers that some of the images may be upsetting. >> reporter: it's been days, desperate families stranded outside a train station in budapest, no answers, no help, nowhere to go. >> we are human. we are human. you have kids. we have kids. >> reporter: hundreds are stuck here. the hungarian government refusing to let them board trains out of the country. this woman walked here with her children. her brother made it to germany. she's now alone, feeling helpless and hopeless. europe is a continent in crisis, a warning this disturbing image shows how bad it has become. the body of one small boy cradled in turkish police

officer's arms. he was from syria. his boat sank on the way to greece. >> and there's been mass confusion in hungary. just this morning, migrants are finally being allowed on trains again. but not being allowed to leave the country. chaos. joining us now, the contributing writer for "time" magazine, scott anderson. he spent time off a rescue ship in libya and he has a photo essay as the magazine's new cover story. msnbc contributor doran warren joins us as well. you saw some incredible things. >> yeah, you did. we always talk about world war ii and the part of world war ii we pass over is what happened in europe afterwards when over a million people displaced. this is not to that level. but this has to be the greatest migrant crisis since 1945, 1946.

>> that's right. and it's rapidly headed towards those sorts of numbers. already this year i think a third of a million people have come into europe. you have a couple months while the mediterranean is quite calm. it will taper off then. everyone is predicting it will be worse next year. >> and what you've seen and what you described, bodies stacked on top of each other in the hull of ships, everybody onboard not knowing how to swim and when they fall into the river, they sink straight down into the river. >> that's right. i think a lot of us have this idea somebody is in the water doesn't know how to swim, they thrash around for a minute or two. and, in fact, you have about five seconds to get that person a life preserver and if not, they just go straight down. >> oh, my god. so in your reporting, what do you think the story is that most people here don't really understand about this crisis? seeing it firsthand.

>> just the incredible numbers of people coming out and also the real barbarism is the smugglers and the way they're operating this thing. this is the closest we have to a modern day slave trade. they're being charged $1500 which for most countries that's life savings. >> they don't have it. >> they don't have it. and they're being crammed on to the boats without any protection and, you know, just taking their lives in their hands. what was the most shocking to me, if people see the picture of these boats, there are 370 people on each one of these boats. if you look at it, it looks like, you know, maybe you can fit 150 or 170. what was amazing to me as the migrants were being rescued off the boat, there is another whole layer of people underneath down in the hull. probably another 100 people literally being stacked on top of one another down in the hull. and it's down there where the

dying usually begins. and it takes eight to ten hours after they set off for libya what people start dying. >> whether we think of migration, we think in terms of push and pull factors. what are the push factors as to why people leave and why are they pulled to certain places? can you unpack some of the push factors from syria from libya, from east africa, from bangladesh? what are they? >> it's war and poverty. and repressive regime. so in different parts of the world, it's certainly syria and iraq, it's largely people fleeing the wars. in syria, you have a lot of men coming out now who as this syrian army gets depleted, they're worried about being called up to serve in the military. or they're fleeing encroachment of al qaeda or isis. what you're seeing from west africa is economic devastation. just, you know, you see it everywhere aren't world and people fleeing poor countries to wealthier ones.

most people on the boats that i saw being rescued is from an extremely repressive regime. it's a range from different countries. it's a range of issues. >> and the pull, the europeans are having to re-examine their immigration. >> that's right. >> the system is all too inviting to people who are ill-equipped to make the journey. i should pose that as a question. i'm serious. that's all i've read. >> yeah. >> i'm just curious. you've been there. why don't you tell us some of the factors. >> obviously, between the wars and the economic devastation that you're seeing of subsa hair an africa and south asia and middle east, europe is the beacon in a way that in earlier generations and other places of the world the united states is.

but i think what is really driving this whole force is just complete desperation. the idea these people -- >> but why now? the desperation has been building certain in the middle east but all across the world. why now? why this summer? >> that's a good question. what you've seen a steady -- starting as a trickle a decade ago and almost every year the numbers have gone up. certainly what you're seeing in syria now and i think syria is going to become worse next year is much larger numbers coming out. but you've always seen this coming out of sub-saharan africa. i don't know why you can pinpoint. >> mike? >> we have a horrific photo on the cover of "the new york times," a turkish police officer carrying a 2-year-old boy drowned, dead. that will galvanize people until about 10:00 a.m. this morning. should we just shut down the united nations for incompetence?

>> mike, i can't believe you said that. i look at what is happening in the middle east. as i was looking at these pictures, i was asking myself, where the hell is the united nations? where the hell are any of these international organizations? >> you have doctors without borders. you have international red cross trying desperately to deal with this situation. but there is no unifying government body, it seems, capable or willing to inject itself into this horrific historical tale. >> that's right. >> and doctors without borders, which is a fantastic organization, they personally rescued close to 12,000 migrants just since may. >> wow. >> in the mediterranean. i think also not even talking about the u.n., talk about the eu, this is all disproportionately on germany, that's the country that almost all the migrants are trying to reach. but it is points of entry, italy and greece.

they're being absolutely overwhelmed with numbers. the migrants were coming in through greece. they go through the balkans. all the migrants are terrified of hungary in particular. this he have to go through syria and serb yash -- serbia, i mean. they're being funneled up to northern europe and primarily to germany and the nordic countries. >> and once they get in to any of the 28 countries, they're free to move anywhere they want? >> yes. >> by law? >> yes. but it's complicated. in a lot of the countries, again especially the balkan countries, they just funnel them through. they're clearly not welcome there. there have been all kinds of physical attacks on the migrants. i don't think anyone stays in hungary, any of the migrants in particular by choice. they're all trying to move further on. >> right. >> all right. we'll be looking for the cover story in the "new york times" magazine. thank you so much, scott anderson. coming up on "morning joe," secretary of state john kerry makes another forceful case for the iran nuclear deal as president obama celebrates a

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mike, where do babies come from? so the president wanted to get attention for climate change but he also got an unexpected lesson in fish biology at one of the largest salmon runs in the world. as he spoke with a fish woman about her trade, the fish he was holding began spawning on him. >> did you see that? something got on my shoes. >> spawning. >> it was spawning a little bit. generally you don't want fish spawning on your feet. >> she said he was happy to see me. >> the president also sampled the salmon jerky pronouncing it outstanding. have you ever had a fish spawn on you? >> it happens quite a bit. yes. >> it's cute. >> up in connecticut river, yeah. >> exactly. >> two weeks ago. >> just two weeks ago. >> that's very nice. that trip is turning out quite well. oh, my lord.

wow. okay. you can see that. coming up at the top of the hour -- >> you can see that. >> it's just having babies, sfligt. >> yes. >> that's cute. >> what do you mean just? >> why is it so -- i don't understand. i thought it was something different. >> the "washington post" -- >> what did you think it was? >> new reporting on jeb bush's game plan for the fall and also elizabeth warren gives new details about her secret meeting with vice president joe biden and the question she would not answer which shocked heilman and myself. >> yes. >> bluplus the key person in hillary clinton's e-mail controversy is now expected to plead the fifth. we'll be right back. these two oil rigs look the same. can you tell what makes them so different? did you hear that sound? of course you didn't. you're not using ge software like the rig on the right. it's listening and learning how to prevent equipment failures,

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what a beautiful thursday morning. feels like it should be friday. welcome back to "morning joe." >> should have plead the fifth before he started working as attorney general. in fact, he should have just stayed athe home. he in spirit should have just golfed. he should have played five or six rounds zbhch. we're on television. we're going to introduce the second hour of "morning joe." top of the hour, everybody. mike barnicle is with us. john heilemann is with us still and jamie weinstein is with us. and on capitol hill, political

reporter for "the washington post," robert costa. a lot to get to this morning. vice president biden is not campaigning but he's definitely looking like he's campaigning. he traveled to florida yesterday. announcing speculation about his 2016 plans. he made a speech at miami-dade college and spoke about education and community colleges as a whole. andrew cuomo is also weighing in on a possible biden bid for president. he says it will be good for the democratic party but that he would still support hillary clinton. okay. all right. so that's good. >> thanks for your support. >> thank you. meanwhile, this is interesting. or at least your eyes popped out. >> i couldn't believe it. >> john heilemann, i never see you surprised. >> we're going to ask steve. meanwhile in, an interview with the "boston globe" last night, elizabeth warren spoke about another meeting with vice president biden last month. >> you met with joe biden the weekend before last. >> i did. >> how did that meeting come

about and what did you talk about? >> he called. >> he called you personally? >> he did. actually called me twice. call me once, call me twice. & invited me down. we had lunch. and we talked about policy. we talked about what's happening to america's middle class. we talked about the direction that this country has been going n we talked about the capture of this country by those who got money and power. it was good long rambly policy conversation. >> was there any talk with the vice president about a joint ticket even jokingly? >> it was -- it was a long conversation. >> steve? >> wow. >> john heilemann and i saw that last hour and couldn't believe it. you're not supposed to do that in washington. >> it's interesting.

she made a commitment, a very basic commitment. she will serve out the very six year term in blunt language in that she is asked a question that would call that commitment into question and she doesn't give a similarly blunt and unequivocal answer. that is the eyebrow raising response. >> you're just not supposed to do that in politics. >> like i said before, either the conversation took place or it didn't. but her answer -- that answer kind of opens the possibility of if it happened, she sort of seems to be confirming it f it didn't, she is suggesting did it happen. either way, fairly easy to say i'm sure it's a private conversation, i can't talk about that. >> i think the interesting thing about her is that months ago i -- there were a few people that wanted her to run. >> you being one of them. >> everyone is like she's too this. she's too that. she's too this or.

that and it will never happen. now she looks serious. >> you look at bernie sanders. you look at how bernie is doing and he's getting 20,000, 30,000. >> serious crowds. >> i worked with bernie. i love bernie. but as far as just sheer political star power, elizabeth war sen at the top of the list for a lot of progressives. she's got to be looking at these crowds and thinking, geez, if i had done this. >> it could have been me. it could have been me. >> all these -- you know, all the democrats. it's not just elizabeth warren. the democrats do have something of a bench that is out there and you look at the people that took their names out of consideration without even really thinking about it because they said hillary clinton is going to be the strongest candidate we've ever seen. and now they look up and they see a poll where she is ahead by seven points in iowa. the other interesting thing last night is joe biden was speaking at this fund-raiser down in florida. apparently he went out of his way to praise bernie sanders. >> right. >> bernie sand serz runniers is

without mentioning hillary clinton. >> it's so interesting. >> the great irony is the democrats that have taken a pass on it are doing the exact opposite of what one bill clinton did in 1991 when george h.w. bush was 90% in the polls. they said i'm going to pass on it. bill clinton jumped in when it made no political sense and, of course, he became the first democrat since fdr to get elected twice in a row. >> yeah. another interesting aspect of the elizabeth warren interview is that she kind of walked back her commitment she made running for the senate in massachusetts about completing her term. she kind of walked back a little which is, you know, leaving the door open. >> yeah. >> it happens. >> okay. >> it happens a lot. >> as one will remember about bill clinton in 1982 who took a pledge to serve out of his term. >> the attacks continue to fly

on the gop primary. you have seen this? steve? robert costa reports that jeb bush is launching a false strategy of taking down trump while courting conservatives. yesterday his campaign put out an online quiz that hits trump for advocating that hillary clinton negotiate a deal with iran and even mocks his fear of germs. quote, "you would rather support a candidate who strives to shake every hand everywhere or is a germaphobe when it comes to shaking hands"? >> come on. trump attacked bush yesterday for speaking in spanish on the campaign trail. "i like jeb, he's a nice man, but he really should set an example by speaking english while in the united states." i have already explained why i think this is a remarkable comment coming from the guys that basically leading in all the polls of a party that lost

the presidency in 2012 because we got 28% of the hispanic vote. and again for those keeping score at home, if mitt romney had gotten george w. bush's percentage of hispanic votes, we would be talking about mitt romney's fourth year in the white house. let's go right now to bob costa. bob, you're reporting -- i'm stunned. i am stunned that jeb bush's strategy is to attack donald trump throughout the fall. i could name 1,000 reasons why it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. and only one for why it does. and that's because his donors are bugging him. what can you tell us about the decision behind a high risk strategy for very conservative with a small campaign? >> my colleague and i sat down with danny bush's campaign manager. rarely speaks to the press. he went on theed record and said bush has to do two things. he has to fend off trump.

trump is defining bush as this low energy politician. at the same time, joe, can you tell me if it's going to work, he thinks bush has to double down what he's doing with his florida record, charter schools, hurricane relief, remind conservatives he has a conservative record down there. >> yeah. and i said it from the very beginning. low energy or high energy, jeb bush was a conservative, effective governor for a swing state that is hard to govern for eight years. and i'm surprised. any indication from danny? i'm surprised that he's not just doing that. any information from danny and the campaign why they have decided to undertake this high risk vat jstrategy. donald trump attacked me and now they're about to get out of the race. there is a lot of bravado there. i hear from my brother. i hear from a lot of conservatives. it seems it hurts the person that attacks donald trump. >> it is dangerous.

and bush people acknowledge that. they're going to this unchartered territory. they're moving away a bit from the florida focus. at the same time, here's why strategically they think it makes sense. bush needs to convince conservatives that he's one of them. if he goes at trump, calling trump a liberal and a democrat, that makes bush seem more like a true conservative, someone who comes from the right who can make a critique of the left. they think that reinforce what's they hope is their strength. >> well, they also, i think, you know on this show earlier this week steve schmitt used the word emasculate what trump is doing to bush. there is some element of -- they do recognize that they are being defined and they have to fight back. there is a belief in some people in bush's world that there are some number of supporters of marco rubio, john kasich, other establishment candidates that their frustrated that their candidate is not fighting back against donald trump. and this they can peel off some of the supporters by being the

guy that takes on the bully. the thing you'll see on the conservative front is not just the campaign but what mike murphy is planning to do at the super pac is start advertising in a big way on the reform conservative and try to educate voters. >> with all due respect to these people that know politics, certainly a lot more than i do. because i'm just a dumb country lawyer. it seems to me they got it backwards. what you do you is go up negative on tv because you have donald trump telling tim russert he supports partial birth abortion. you have him telling hillary clinton she will be a great negotiator. show the clips. they speak for themselves in 30 seconds. and have jeb stay positive. you don't want the attacks coming out of jeb's mouth. you want them coming on the 30 second ads. the attacks are true. you have the clips right there.

i just keep going back to 2004 where you had howard dean up high, dick gephardt attacking him. they basically eviscerated each other the last two weeks in iowa. and john kerry slipped back in. >> that's what kasich and rubio want. >> exactly. that's what i was going to say you to. this would be a dream for kasich and rubio. let jeb get into the fight. >> jeb is getting in the ring. kasich is holding back. kasich is getting the big crowds in new hampshire. rubio had this quiet summer. they're happy for jeb to go in and start throwing punches. >> maybe the party is behind -- this whole pledge thing. everybody might be closing in. donald trump is now turning his sights on a man running neck and neck with him in most iowa polls. dr. pben carson. in an interview, he said carson is a friend but would struggle managing an economy. i think it's just a very difficult situation that he puts himself into. to have a doctor who wasn't creating jobs and would have a

nurse or maybe two nurses. it's such a different world. i created tens of thousands of jobs. >> i'm sorry. when you read that, i wish we had a shot of steve, john and mike. because we all lowered our heads and started laughing. >> it's unbelievable. every day! there is something great every day that you would wait a whole year to get out of a candidate. >> a nurse or maybe two. >> he's a very nice guy. he's a very good doctor. but all he got is a nurse. >> a ground breaking doctor. >> that's all he's ever employed. >> there is a very big part of the story that we need to get. ben carson raising interest in a lot of money. $6 million in the last month and $20 million overall. >> jamie, talk about your interview and talk about the rights of ben carson. i've been the first to say i don't get it.

i like doctor carson. i respect a lot of people that are supporting him. i don't get it. i mean, he's not only doing well on the trail and in the polls, but raising a lot of money. >> you know, i think anything foreshadowed it. it was probably the book. i don't know if you remember, but his book outsold hillary's memoir by, you know, hundreds of thousands. hillary got something like $15 million for her memoir. so there is a groundswell of people that know ben carson's story. he's a likeable person. in the debate, denlt speak all that much. but when he did, he made a couple jokes. it seems like that's all you need to succeed to win debate this is day you is make a couple jokes and then you're president. but he's a likeable person. he's one of the most decent people i guess in the field. he is a great record as a doctor. he kind of rescuing people. is that qualified to be president? donald trump doesn't think so. but right now he's having his moment in the sun.

i'm not sure it will last as long as donald trump's will. but he's certainly rising in the polls. >> even more incredible that he actually bent medical history with only one or two nurses. bob costa, explain -- because you've been out there. help those of us that haven't been out on the campaign trail and seen dr. ben carson with people in iowa and new hampshire. explain the appeal. when you talk to supporters, what are drawing so many iowa voters especially to ben carson? >> i think the appeal is really in iowa. it's temperamental and religious. evangelicals connect with him the way he talks about his faith. those looking for a political outsider that live in northwest iowa, if they don't like trump the way he talks, carson is their guy. the problem for carson is where is the campaign infrastructure? he has a great grassroots campaign behind him. if he really starts to gain momentum, i'm not sure that national apparatus is ready. >> former clinton staffers are expected to take questions in private from the house benghazi

committee starting to day. cheryl mills and jake sullivan will be questioned behind closed doors but another former staffer has indicated he will plead the fifth to a congressional spp. brian pagliano worked for clinton during her 2008 campaign and at the state department. he's been identified in records as the person who set up her e-mail server on 2009. his lawyer said he would refuse to testify. the clinton campaign has called this decision disappointing and say they urged him to testify. a campaign aide also told nbc news understandably he may not wish to be drawn into a political spectacle. and reuters reports that so far they found 87 e-mail threads with information given from high level foreign officials from prime ministers to spy chiefs. reuters reports according to u.s. regulations, this sort of information must be classified from the very start and hand ld through secure channels.

>>, so steve, we had you on at the beginning of chris christ christie's bridge scandal. we saw that unfolded. and this seems to be a national version of that. just the drip, drip, drip every day. it's constant. it's got to be maddening for the clinton campaign. >> that's the similarity there is that pattern. it's the consequence. you go back to the beginning. the consequence of the clintons deciding six or seven years ago, look, we don't want to have the government e-mail address. we want to be able to control this ourselves which is a consequence of the 15 years before that thinking everybody is out to gep get them therefore we have to control it. now you see what you're dealing with is every time there is a new revelation, every time -- now today it's that looks like a bad headline, pleading the fifth. it just reinforces the sense that they are hiding something. that there is something amiss going on here. whether that's the case or not, it certainly starts looking that

way. >> it is also a problem that again it's not rush limbaugh and drudge going after them this time. it's reuters who has been on the forefront of this. it's "the new york times." it's the fbi. and it is constant from all these different sources. >> so, i mean, is having dinner with a democratic voter yesterday and, an attorney. these are the questions that come up. i'll ask them you to, steve. first of all, it comes up and i'm asked about it. and secondly, is it safe to assume that perhaps she took the job as secretary of state or perhaps even got the job as secretary of state and planned on running for president? do you think that was in her goal? >> absolutely. i think it is a little baffling. >> all right. so it's okay to say that? it's okay to say that? it's not just me? >> yeah. >> all right. so if you know you're going to run or if you think you might run, the question i'm getting

from folks who are not in the echo chamber or in washington circumstance slz why did she do that? >> right. i have the same question. can you do the math back in 2008. you can say barack obama is a two term president. hillary clinton is younger than ron aeld reagan was when he was elected. hillary clinton has the appetite to be president. the opportunity will be there eight years and getting 18 million votes in the democratic primary, she'll likely have a base. >> do you think she was first choice for secretary of state? >> i think, yes. i think president obama made a decision very early on that's the role he wanted her in. >> yeah. so you could ask the same question about the cash. if you know you're running for president of the united states, why does your husband go to foreign countries with business before the state department and get paid au$150,000. so you think it's unethical.

it makes no sense. and it just seems to constantly repeat the same pattern of behavior. >> i think a lot of people who know the clintons and have known them for many, many years would give the same answer to both questions. the question that mika posed to steve and the question that you just raised, the answer is that's who they are. >> i don't know if it's that. that's who they are. they sort of believe that there is a core conviction that the normal conventional rules of behavior in the political world do not apply to them. and they have had great success by operating by their own rules and there is not a lot -- they've had an incredibly

successful life. >> by the way, they're worth $200 million and bill clinton has been elected twice and hillary clinton thinks she will be elected. when she said she was approved, who approved it, her? because that is -- who approved this? she says it was approved. >> are you talking about the server? >> all of it, yeah. she says it was approved. who approved it? who runs -- >> you ask a question that you know the answer to. >> i'm asking john. >> why are you asking john. >> where y. are you contorting. >> i never heard her say it was approved. if she said it was approved, which she has, who approved it? >> i don't know. >> right. i think it's her. >> right. >> who else -- is it the white house? did anyone try stop her? >> no, she approved it. >> perry mason, what is the point you're trying to make here? >> i'm just asking who approved it. >> we know she approved it because the obama -- >> who approved it? >> i didn't hear her say that either, actually. >> it was approved. she didn't break any rules.

>> she actually said the state department approved this. >> what was the state department? >> mika, look at me. i'll give ut answer. why are you playing perry mason with people who just wandered off the street. now they're in a trial. they're not on the witness stand. >> mike? >> i will give you the answer. >> okay. >> because you're asking people who just wandered. and perry mason, you don't ask people in the courtroom. let me help you out here, mika. >> go ahead. i'm listening. >> let's put the train back on the tracks here. hillary clinton said that the state department approved this. >> okay. >> that's not the case. hillary clinton was the state department. >> so she approved it? >> she approved it herself. as i soend aid on tv the other if you listened to me, that one day i was on tv for 15 seconds, i said it would be like me saying, well, you know, "morning

joe" approved me coming here every day wearing untucked shirts and no socks. nobody's going to tell me what to wear on my own show. >> then it's okay. >> no, it's not okay, mika. the obama administration and you know this very well, i don't know what point you're trying to make. but the obama administration, several high ranking officials have told you repeatedly off the record that they had regulations that forbade this type of behavior. so, no, she was not allowed to do this. that's why when she said the state department approved it, you know very well that's not true. >> okay. >> what point were you trying to make? >> steve, thank you so much. >> don't you know that? >>wander off the set. i'm scared. >> you'll be fine. i'm sorry you can't follow. >> the spawning thing -- i'll never recover from that. >> we're going to be watching

"hardball" this week as you fill in for chris matthews. doing a great job. we appreciate you being here. robert costa, we're going to be looking forward to your report on jeb bush in "the washington post." and jamie, thank you so much. we're going to be reading your interview with donald trump for the daily caller. still ahead, we're going way back if time to show you when donald trump said money wasn't that important. up next, he says the kentucky clerk refusing to issue same-sex marriage licenses has more courage than most law makers in washington, d.c. i obviously disagree. our good friend republican presidential candidate mike huckabee is with us next. we're going to also ask him the question about the clintons. he knows them pretty well and has known them for a very long time. we'll ask him the questions that we were asking the rest of the panel. >> all right. let's discuss medical supplies i'm kind of happy with my guys. i think you'll love our newest line the stuff my vendor sells works fine.

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the ap reports that nine marines were hurt. information about the marine who was killed is not yet available and officials say the incident is under investigation. we'll be following that, of course. joining us now from columbia, south carolina, republican presidential candidate mike huckabee. good to you have onboard. >> governor, thank you for being with us. >> my pleasure. >> we're going to talk about what is happening in kentucky. first we want to talk about the clintons. you've known them for a very long time. in fact, you campaigned saying that you know how to beat the clinton machine. the one thing that we're asking you as a republican, a republican to republican question here, so -- let me ask you -- try to answer the question that we're trying to figure out why would the clintons do what the clintons have done over the past four, five, six years when they knew that hillary was going to be running for president? we don't understand the e-mails. we don't understand the servers.

we don't understand the president getting $550,000 from countries that had business before the state department or entities that did. in the most nonpartisan way possible for our democratic friends watching to day, could you explain this pattern of behavior as a guy from arkansas that's known him for nearly half a century? >> joe, the best way to say it is it's like the kid in the neighborhood who is always breaking windows or stealing a pie from the window and people just end up saying, you know, that's just little billy. that's just the way he is. and honestly, i think that people are so used to clintonesque behavior. but this isn't the '90s anymore. i think people will hold hillary to a standard of right and wrong that they haven't. look at what happened to the asent of bill clinton during the presidency and after and there's been this sort of attitude of

shrug the shoulders and say it's just the clintons. i don't think she gets away with this one because there's just too many strings out there. and it's really coming down to where a lot of american people are saying are there two sets of rules, one for the clintons and one for the rest of us? even if you're a democrat, a different set of rules. that's the problem. >> mike barnicle and i just loved the stealing the pie image from the window. you can actually see me doing that as a kid. i'm sorry. go ahead. >> why don't i ask you about the kentucky clerk? you made comments, thank god for her. carly fiorina had a very different point of view about this and it was more about rules. the rules of law. the supreme rules of law. and you just talked about rules. and how people play by different rules and it seems to me that you are critical to that type of behavior. i'm wonldering why -- >> not at all. >> why is it okay for this clerk to do what she is doing given

this is the law of the land? >> well, when you say it's the law of the land, can you quote the statute that has been passed by the people's elected representatives? no. the only law she is following is the kentucky law which by constitutional amendment defines marriage as a man and a woman. the specific form that she is required to fill out for a marriage license specifically requires male and female f the kentucky legislature decides they agree with the supreme court and they change the laws of kentucky, that's a whole different thing. >> but governor, you know that the supreme court doesn't have to have congress pass statutes for their interpretation of the constitution. that immediately becomes law of the land and supersedes all state laws. and whether i agree with you or not on state's being able to regulate this or not, anything that kentucky passed becomes

irrelevant as soon as the supreme court of the united states makes a constitutional determination, right? that's basic constitutional law. >> no. that's not true. look, you would have hated lincoln because he disregarded dred scott 1857 decision that said black people weren't fully human. he disregarded it because he knew it was not operative. it was not logical. jefferson warned against judicial tyranny which he said would be the case if we ended up allowing a court ruling to become law without the other two branches coming in to agree. when i was governor and the state supreme court had a ruling on school finance, we didn't just start writing new checks the next day. the legislature had to come up with a new funnelediding formul. i signed it and then the department of education sent new checks. the supreme court can determine something by way of review according to marbury versus madison. but they can't implement et without enacting and enabling legislation. i think we're getting close to

what jefferson said when he said that if we allow the judicial branch just to make up law without the people's elected representatives, you turn the constitution into a thing of wax. that's why i believe it's time to have a real clear understanding of what should be something that we learned in ninth grade civic that's the supreme court is not the supreme branch, it's the supreme court. and it's certainly not the supreme being. it cannot overrule the laws of nature and the laws of nature is god. >> so i guess i'll try this a different way. i want to be careful because i don't want to create a situation in that specific courthouse or add to it. why thank god for her? there say lot of judgement being cast on both sides of that story which i don't want to get into. it's pretty hypocritical. why thank god for her and do you actually want to see other court clerks doing this? >> well, i want people to stand

up for their convictions. i want them to have the courage of their convictions, not acquiesce. >> do you want them to follow law? >> well, again, i would say to you it is the interpretation of five unleelected lawyers on the court which is the way john roberts recovered to them. >> but those lawyers are supreme court justices. so do i decide what laws i want to follow and what laws i don't want to follow? >> no. we don't have that option. i'm asking you, tell met statute. tell me the specific law other than the law that that clerk is operating under which defines what the marriage license looks like. >> there wasn't a statute after brown v. board of education that was passed. but it became the law of the land immediately thereafter and dwight eisenhower got the national guaardeuararden acted that was the law of the land. you didn't have arkansas or

alabama or georgia pass state statutes. so you had the supreme court of the united states defining what the constitution said. same thing occurred after roe v. wade in 1973. again, whether we agree with or disagree with these decisions, neither we as conservatives or our duly elected officials in the state government have the right to decide what supreme court decisions they're going to follow and which ones they don't follow. is that correct, mike? >> joe, you have to have enabling legislation. let me remind you, if what just said is correct then abraham lincoln should bevil villified lawless president. he knew that slavery was fundamentally wrong. he refused to acknowledge the supreme court's decision as did jefferson on the act. these are presidents who realized that court was one of

the three branches of government and it did not have the power to overrule the other two. i just think it's time for us to have a serious reminder of the structure of our government was three equal branches and the court, if it is allowed to make a ruling and we throw up our hands and say it's the law of the land, there is nothing we can do or say, we have to fall in line -- >> but there something we can do. there is something that we can do. we can -- if i'm a conservative and i believe that this as i do believe that this should be handled by state and not the federal government, i can vote for somebody like who you know will select justices who will have the same view point as me. i have that power every four years to cast that vote. but i don't have the power to decide which supreme court decisions i'm going to agree with and which ones i'm not going agree with. >> it's different to agree with them. but to enact them without any enabling legislation. joe, i go back to my point. if i had simply said that

supreme court made an education finance decision in my state and i just arbitrarily started writing new checks, how do i do that? how do i exercise the power of the sword which is the executive branch without the power of the legislature? that's what we need to realize. we have one branch of government that is overruling the other two. and what roberts said in the dissent in this decision was that you in essence unelected lawyers making rule over all of our government. that's not how we function as a government. that's why i say this kentucky clerk standing tall for what she believes and what the law is in her state. >> governor, i have your basic nonlawyer's question for you. the clerk, kim davis and the licenses. are the licenses hers or are they the state's?

>> they belong to the state and the state specifically requires her to fill it out with male and female. and until they change that, i don't see how can you ask her to violate what is on that form and the kentucky constitution which is explicitly clear. >> are driver's licenses, or fishing licenses next? i'm not going to give a driver's license to someone? >> i don't know that there is anything -- >> where does it end? >> that's a real stretch to go there. i don't think you're required to list your gender in order to get a fishing license. but we're talking about marriage. we're talking about an institution that is survived and served this civilization for over 5,000 years with one definition, a redefinition of marriage is a pretty serious jump. there is nothing in the u.s. constitution in which the federal government has any role in marriage. nothing whatsoever. which was one of the points in the dissents of all four of the dissenting justices. in order to reach this decision, they had to go out and pick up words like spirituality and

intimacy. those aren't constitutional protections. and they made up a law. two of the justices performed same-sex marriages. i think they should have recused themselves. i think that's this case in kentucky may be first case in which a person for their christians convictions is going to be put in jail because they refused to bow to a decision that suspect at best. >> all right. let's turn to politics. john heilemann? >> governor, just to -- twii wa to say the notion that supreme court is overruling the other two branches of government, i believe the executive branch is also in the same place on the question of gay marriage that the supreme court is. so you'd have two of the major branchs in alignment on this. i want to ask you about the iran deal. you don't like the notion that -- you have a procedural issue with the fact that president can pass this iran deal even if there is disapproval on part of a

majority in the house and senate. why don't you explain what your objection to that procedure is as well? >> i'm concerned that this should have been a treaty not an executive agreement. it should have risen to the level of a treaty. it certainly has the force of it. i believe that the republicans in congress are dead wrong not to insist on that. and they've made a huge mistake and allowed this president to get us into a deal that violates what he and john kerry said would have to be provisions in it. for example, any time, anywhere inspections. that's what they said two years ago. that's not what's in this deal. they said there couldn't be any nuclear enrichment in iran. now they say there can. just not as much. we put a longer fuse on the bomb. iran never stopped the rhetoric of death to america and wiping israel off the face of the map. this is a dangerous agreement. i really resent that the president portrayed this as you either accept this deal or you want to go to war. i think that suttis utter nonse.

imis demagog that is demagoguery that puts israel and america and the rest of the world in a differedanger. >> we went nine or ten minutes without mentioning donald trump's name at least since june. >> i thank you. >> yes, exactly. >> and you think you're going to be on the main debate stage for cnn? >> as far as i can tell, i can't imagine any circumstances under which i would not be on there. >> okay. >> we'll be looking for you. really appreciate you coming on the show. >> thank you so much. we appreciate it. >> always appreciate it when candidates do that. >> i will say this about what the governor said. there has been a concern certainly in conservative ranks over the past 20, 30 years and, of course, in liberal ranks when there is a conservative court that supreme court has become a more powerful branch than the

other two branches. and so that message, even though we disagree with it around this table, i think there are a lot of people that will hear that message and will agree that you've got unelected judges making profound changes. they have been doing that for 200 years. >> all right. that's one point of view. we'll be back with many more "morning joe." here is a simple math problem. two trains leave st. louis for albuquerque at the same time. same cargo, same size, same power. which one arrives first? hint: it's not the one on the left. the speedy guy on the right is part of an intelligent system that creates the optimal trip profile for all trains on the line. and the one on the left? uh, looks like it'll be counting cows for awhile. so maybe the same things aren't quite the same. ge software. get connected. get insights. get optimized.

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do you like it? >> i'm speechless. >> oh, my god. >> it sounds almost like a novel. you can't make this up. >> yes, it is. >> we're talking about the "boston globe," dear hillary. and mika just stumbled across an e-mail that we're going to read next block. >> look at the subhead. i like it. >> oh, my gosh. >> we'll get to. that plus the cover of bloomberg business week when we come back. doers. they don't worry if something's possible.

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spiriva helps me breathe better. to learn about spiriva respimat slow-moving mist, ask your doctor or visit spirivarespimat.com mr. trump, what is left? you're 33 years old, you're worth all this money. you said you didn't say you want to be worth a billion. >> i just want to keep busy and keep active and be interested in what i do. that's all there is to life as far as i'm concerned.

i'm really not looking to make tremendous amounts of money. i'm looking to enjoy my life. if that happens to go with it, that's fabulous. >> 48 past the hour. joining us now, "wall street journal" reporter for bloomberg business week, max ableson, he's the author of the new cover story examining business legacy of donald trump. we'll get to that in just a moment. >> max, hold on a second. breaking news. the "boston globe," a guy if washington, d.c., dear hillary. you and the entire table exploded over an e-mail i haven't seen yet. >> there is actually -- okay. first of all, lesson one, don't assume that important people will believe the important things about you. i love hillary! and then you get one from -- let's see, who do you have? >> i have paul, thank you so much very much! i gave secretary clinton a plus in our dopey cnn report card last night. so did donna brazile. only two a pluses all night. >> you got the doozy.

>> i think we have a winner. >> who is that, mike? >> lenny avis. >> read the excerpt. >> i hate to e-mail you too much and to ask you i hate to e-mailh and ask for any favors. i feel as if i'm taking advantage of a great privilege of e-mailing you. aside from caroline, my four children, my immediate family, i consider you to be my best friend and the best person i have met in my long life. >> quite an extensive e-mail, quite long. i mean, it's filled -- >> i'm tired for her. >> please, please, please, note, there are three pleases. do not be bashful or keconcerne at saying something on my request. oh, my gosh. >> i love it. max, tell us about donald. >> i don't know how i can beat it. >> you can't beat it, but you can try because you have a great subject, donald trump. what do you tell us? >> first, i have to say although i have many friends at the "wall

street journal." >> i caught that, sorry. >> mika was so taken in by lenny's e-mail. >> my bad. >> i had a lot of fun with the story because i got to completely ignore the politics stuff and look at donald trump as a businessman, when is what he's been all his life. >> what have you got? >> this idea that he's a great builder of skyscrapers is not true and it hasn't been true for a few years. what he is is kind of fascinating. but it's also not true that shehe's a sham. it's in between. >> he's not a builder, explain. >> there was a long time in his life in the 1980s where he was putting up big, huge, new york skyscrapers and he fell hard, although he didn't go personally bankrupt, but what happened is he and his business had an amazing transformation afterwards. it's not as simple as he merely

became a brand that was lslappe on other people's products. he did use partners. for example, trump international, or the gm building, he had a tiny amount of money and much bigger partners trying to put them up. just because buildings are called trump doesn't mean he put them up. >> who owns the building where he has his interviews? >> that's the trump tower. when you look at his business, he has an amazing real estate portfolio, 40 wall street downtown, used to be one of the tallest downtown, is another trump building. on the other hand, he has these weird businesses like golf. i spent time with the cfo at one of his golf clubs. bedminster, we drove through the wonderlands and it opens on this fountain with lions with a pool and more lions. everything is this perfectode to the trump style. >> you say, people who suggest

he is not a good businessman -- >> right. >> -- are just getting it wrong. he's very good at what he does. >> i don't think there's any way you can look at a guy who fell that low and had to reconstruct his business and not be at least a little impressed he sort of was able to transform. he does have a profitable business from landlording and from golf and resorts. it just isn't exactly the impression you would get when he tells people i'm the biggest builder. i will build this big mexican wall. those things aren't necessarily true anymore. >> it's his opinion. >> licensing and marketing genius. i would -- i would take that business. >> wall street reporter for bloomberg business week. really good to have you on the show. come back. still ahead, a first look at the new documentary with a revealing look at nernl and private live of steve jobs. keep it right here on "morning joe."

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you guys read the lead of the back-to-back. actually the lead. roy spence wrote this to hillary clinton as she was leaving for prague. i love you, i respect you. i miss you. i cherish every moment of our remarkable journey together. that's what i said to you last week. >> that sounds like one of my e-mails to barn kl. >> the kissing up. it really is disturbing. hillar

controversy, if someone isn't me an e-mail like that, fire them. >> i'm going to send you one when this is over. >> you don't work for me. >> it's not so much kissing up as sucking up. >> that's what's happening here. anyway, the leading the fifth in the hillary clinton stuff, this is far more disturbing. joe biden looks like he's going to run for president. who knows. i wonder if people send him e-mails telling him they would like to lick the side of his face. >> donald trump takes jeb bush to task for speaking spanish. let me repeat again. jeb bush is attacked for speaking spanish. a crazy 2015. hey america, still not sure whether to stay or go on that business trip? ♪ should i stay or should i go

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oh, my gosh. it's not friday, right? >> it's close. getting close. what's going on? how are you doing? >> i'm fine. with us on set, we have mike barnicle and john heilemann. >> yeah. >> and in washington, senior editor of the daily caller, jamie weinstein. >> mike, mika. >> exactly. >> a big day yesterday. the president through a coordinated strategy, i think the "new york times" reports, we hear the "washington post" talking about his securing the votes needed to save the iran deal. >> i can't get my eyes off the image next to that, of the migrant child. 3-year-old boy. this crisis. >> there's a more horrific picture than that that they have chosen not to display, which is of the body of the infant alone

in the waves as the waves crest up over the body. it's horrific. >> it is horrific. >> the situation is horrific. their inability to deal with it is horrific. >> i'm absolutely stunned by how badly europe is set up to handle this crisis. and they've got to do something. i mean, they've got -- the idea that you get into one country, you can move freely across 28? >> yeah. >> and it's just -- this is a crisis that's going to continue until europe changes their rules. >> we have a lot of politics to cover this block as well. the republican party appears to be closing in on donald trump. we'll see what happens with that. >> first, former top hillary clinton top staffers are expected to take questions in private from the house benghazi committee starting today. sheryl mills and jake sullivan

will be questioned behind closed doors. another former staffer has indicated he will plead the fifth. the man worked for clinton during her 2008 campaign and at the state department. he has been identified in digital records as the person who set up her e-mail serve r i 2009. now, his lawyer said he would refuse to testify. the clinton campaign has called this decision disappointing and said they urged him to testify. a campaign aide also told nbc news, quote, understandably, he may not wish to be drawn into a political spentical. wouldn't it clear things up? >> if you're pleading the fifth, that has nothing to do with politics. that has to do with being afraid you may say something that will incriminate you criminally. >> i think that if -- i mean, if he could help clear things up for her, it would make it much less of a spectacle. >> if you're worried about it

being a spectacle, you don't plead the fifth. you can't plead the fifth from stop yourself from being charged or going to jail and say i'm doing this for political reasons. no, just the opposite. that's what the aide said, right. >> reuters reports that so far, they have found 87 e-mail threads with information given from high-level foreign officials from prime ministers to spy chiefs. reuters reports according to u.s. regulations, this sort of information must be classified from the very start and handled through secured channels. >> here's what's very interesting about this entire process. john heilemann, you look at the documents now that they're looking at, the e-mails that hillary clinton sent out. she said, oh, it wasn't classified when i sent it or received it. there was nothing marked on it. it's because they were generating it as they went. but what happens in this process is they will go back to the date that it needed to be classified

by. right? so hillary clinton says, they weren't classified at the time. they went back and classified it later. of course, they hadn't seen it to classify it. so if you go back and look at the dates on a lot of these documents, they go back to the original date, the second it was sent. it was deemed classified. this entire argument about, it wasn't classified when i sent it or received it, is just absolute nonsense. >> well, to me, the most striking thing, and i have read that story that first made this point, and it took me a little while. it's complicated, at least for me. >> the clintons are suggesting -- for people who don't understand at home, what it means is the clintons are suggesting, at the time they sent it, it wasn't important. it wasn't classified. no, the agencies are saying actually, it was important from the second you sent it. if things had changed to make it more important later, they would have marked the date when it became vital. >> but again, to me, the easier thing to understand is, just for

the simplest way to put it, in some of these cases, there are kinds of communication that take place where it's automatically classified. if you're -- you know, secretary of state has a conversation with a foreign head of state or another foreign official and is then sent an e-mail about a private communication, that's something that falls into the category of this is automatically confidential material. whether it's marked or not marked, those are things across government regarded as by definition classified. and so there's now appeared to be a number of e-mail that fall into that category. at least according to reuters. >> right, and mike barnicle, hillary clinton doesn't need to see the latest take of i spy or watch the james bond movies to know that 87 e-mails are threads with information given to high level foreign officials from prime ministers to spy chiefs.

mika read and reuters investigated. you don't need to -- you don't have to go to the spy museum to pick this up. >> i agree with that. you know, just listening to the conversation for the past three or four minutes, think about it. can you really blame brian for taking the fifth. >> no. >> he's an i.t. guy. i don't think he works for the secretary of state. he's not working for the campaign. he's an i.t. guy. >> he set up the server. >> yeah. >> so you want to get involved with all this? i plead the fifth. >> and presumably, he has a lawyer who is saying to him, sir, this would be the prudent thing for you to do in the situation. she's sitting there going, okay. you want me to take the fifth? fine. >> like i said, it's his constitutional right. that's fantastic. but he's not doing it because of a political spectacle. he's doing it because the fbi is investigating, and the news just keeping getting worse every day. >> a new poll suggests hillary

clinton's image is still on the decline. the "washington post"/abc news poll released yesterday shows 53% of respondents with an unfavorable impression of her. that's the highest of clinton's unfavorable numbers in this survey since april of 2008. she also seems to illicit intense fews from respondents. nearly 4 in 10 said they had a strongly unfavorable view of her. the good news for the clinton campaign, she remains widely popular among democrats. her favorability number in her own party is at 80%, ten points higher than vice president joe biden. speaking of which, the vice president traveled to florida yesterday amid mounting speculation about his plans for 2016. in a speech at miami-dade college, biden spoke at length about education and general and community colleges at a whole. at one point, couldn't help but crack a joke about the elephant in the room.

>> let me say to all of those of you who graduated from high school and had, took some time to get back, it takes a lot of courage. takes a lot of courage when you have been out of school two, four, six, eight years, to say, you know, i'm going back. i'm going back. and people aren't -- who aren't willing to risk failing never succeed. by the way, it's amazing how good this school is. look at all the press you have attracted. their interest in community college has impressed me greatly. i hope that's what they're going to write about. >> what do you think, mika? >> i -- i hope he runs. i look at that, and i think he might. from things i have heard, i think he might. >> john heilemann? >> i don't think he's going to run. >> you don't think he's going to run. why is that? >> that there's -- that the reality is there is -- it's a

very narrow path for him. it's been clear for the last couple weeks there's not -- though some people around him think there is some appetite for him in the party, that at this moment, there still really isn't. there's still a lot of the democratic party who is basically saying we love you. and there's some scenario in which it might make sense for you to be in this, but right now, she's still very strong within the party. it's pretty late. and i think this human element of can he get his family on board, can he get himself to point where he could still overcome the great degree of grief that's still besetting him. i think it's too much. >> look at this. interview last night with the "boston globe" last night. senator elizabeth warren spoke about her meeting with the vice president. she had that meeting last month. >> you met with joe biden the weekend before last. >> i did. >> what did you talk about? >> he called. >> he called you personally.

>> he did. actually called me twice. call me once, call me twice. and invited me down. we had lunch. and we talked about policy. we talked about what's happening to america's middle class. we talked about the direction this country has been going in. we talked about the capture of this country by those who have got money and power. it was, you know, good, lung, rambling policy conversation. >> was there any talk with the vice president of a joint ticket, even jokingly? >> it was -- it was a long conversation. >> wow. that's kind of a surprise. >> yes. >> hello. >> that's the first time i saw that. john heilemann. that is quite a surprise. >> i mean, kind of incredible. >> that is incredible. >> an incredible thing to say.

if actually there was such a discussion and for her to say that is incredible. and if no such conversation took place for her to say that is equally incredible. >> not sure which one is more incredible. >> they're both kind of -- either way, sort of incredible. >> it is. >> okay. >> he who does not deny admits, i think. i think there was a latin phrase. >> i love watching the two of you. eyes popped out. >> one of these rare moments in politics where somebody is asked a revealing question and does not -- >> does not react by shutting the whole thing down. >> yeah, wow. >> okay, let's now -- >> let's go to the other side of the aisle and see if that's as interesting. >> attacks continue to fly in the gop primary. jeb bush is launching a full stratege of taking down trump, and i think he might not be alone in trying to do this. yesterday, his campaign put out an online quiz that hits donald trump for advocating that hillary clinton negotiate a deal with iran, and even mocks his

fear of germs. you would rather support a candidate who strives to shake every hand everywhere or is a germophobe when it comes to shaking hands. i wouldn't have done that. i think people support that. i'm going to tell you why in a moment. for his part, trump attacked bush yesterday for speaking spanish on the campaign trail. quote, i like jeb. he's a nice man. but he really should set the example by speaking english while in the united states. okay. >> you know, this is such a gift to hillary clinton. >> i know. >> this is such a gift to hillary clinton. >> i think it's -- i think there is something there. i don't want to say what it is. >> i don't even think it's a dog whistle. >> it's a fog horn. >> and donald trump is also now turning his sights -- >> by the way, i have to say, we had somebody on the set yesterday. >> yeah. >> when they watched jeb speaking in spanish. and this talks about how people look at things differently.

>> what was yesterday? >> somebody was shaking their head going, i can't believe he's being so stupid to speak in spanish. well, i was thinking, that's -- >> pretty good. >> the greatest damn thing i have ever seen. if i ever ran for office again, i would love to be able to speak spanish. this is the future of america. >> was it you? >> this was america's future. it's not speaking spanish. no dumb people out there, joe scarborough is saying speaking spanish is the future. no, i'm not. it's who we are. it's who we are today. it's who we were when the germans game. it's who we were when the italians came. it's who we have been for 240 years. >> it also, at least for me, it gets to the embarrassing fact that the vast majority of americans don't speak a second language. you go overseas, people speak

spanish and english. they speak french and english. some of us can barely speem english. >> we speak american. >> yeah, and jeb bush is fluent in two languages, good for him. >> yeah. >> when you look at the fact that the republican party winning the white house, jamie, depends on winning hispanic votes, and when you get 26% of the hispanic vote, you lose. you're fired. you're out of here. and that's what happened to mitt romney. i mean, donald talks about mitt romney and what a loser he was and how he let us down. if he had gotten the same percentage of hispanic voters that george w. bush got, we would have been talking about mitt romney's first term right now, jamie. this is simple math. demographics is destiny. you can't defy it. >> i think, and you know, trump knew that at one point as well

after the 2012 election. he talked about how mitt romney was too mean on immigrants. and obviously, his plan where he's going to deport 12 million illegal immigrants and then bring the good ones back is just unworkable. let me give you a little bit of a counterargument to what trump criticized jeb bush about. look -- >> go ahead. >> i'm kind of fine with jeb bush kind of giving a speech in spanish, but there is a sense, for even those like myself who favor some kind of comprehensive immigration reform that would legalize most of the 11 million illegal immigrants in the united states, that par of this process, you need to assimilate the immigrants into america's great melting pot. part of that is encouraging learning english even for the new immigrants who have come. so there is maybe a spin you could put on this where he is saying, donald trump, i don't know if he was being nuanced here, suggesting part of this encouragement is not necessarily campaigning in spanish.

campaign in english and try to have a common unifying language. >> jamie, it's just showing respect. when hillary clinton goes to the south, she remembers the southern accent that she had like 12 years ago or 15 years ago when she was in arkansas. or was it 30 years ago? and nobody thinks she's a southerner. it's just showing respect and showing we have a republican candidate who is not repelled by your very existence on our shores. >> i understand, and i -- again, i'm fine actually with jeb bush doing that. but there is a problem within parts of immigrants coming to the country where at least the first generation here, some of them, they live in communities where they only speak spanish and they don't learn english. therefore it's harder for them to succeed by not learning english. >> i totally agree. but criticizing a candidate for going into a community and -- >> i think there's a dog whistle there. >> there's an obvious dog whistle. the idea donald trump is making

a nuanced argument. whatever you want to say about donald trump, nuance is not his game. >> i was being a little sarcastic about that. trying to make the best out of his statement. >> i will say that in 1994 when george w. bush was running for governor of texas, i traveled around with him. i was down in brownsville, texas, with him, and i watched him on a saturday morning go out to a soccer field that was filled with all hispanics. some legal, some illegal. and he wandered around all day and campaigned all day long and spoke spanish to those people and hung around with them. he didn't have spanish the way his brother did, but he had it a little bit. i looked and said this guy was welcomed there. i said he's going to win the texas governor's race. an ability to campaign that is very powerful. and his brother has it, too. >> still ahead on "morning joe," the story you will not want to miss if you have a child getting ready to take the s.a.t. also, why the republican candidates for 2016 are divided over the county clerk refusing

to grant same-sex marriage licenses in kentucky. plus, the first female coach in nfl history. we'll talk with jen welter about cracking the glass ceiling in a 60,000 seat stadium. you're watching "morning joe."

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county clerk in kentucky is expected in court today over her refusal to grant marriage licenses to same-sex couples. some activists have branded her as a hypocrite bringing up the fact she's been married four times. she's been denying a set of rulings and it's divided republican candidates running for president. >> there is a county clerk who is showing more courage, more

conviction, and more of a better understanding of the constitution than virtually any elected official in america. than virtually any candidate for president. and certainly more than many of the people who run our government in washington. i thank god for kim davis and i hope more americans will stand with her. >> i don't think anybody should have to choose between following their conscience, their religious beliefs and giving up their job. it's wrong to force christian individuals to discriminate whether it's clerks, musicians, or others, i think that's wrong. you should be able to keep your job and follow your conscience. >> while i disagree with the supreme court's decision, their actions are clear. so i think in this particular case, this woman now needs to make a decision of conscience. is she prepared to continue to work for the government, be paid for by the government? in which case, she needs to execute the government's will,

or does she feel so strongly about this that she wants to sever her employment with the government and seek employment elsewhere, where her religious liberties will be paramount over her duties as a government employee. >> thank you, carly fiorina. for not demagoguing the 14th amendment. and also not demagoguing something like this, which is so patently clear. that when the supreme court of the united states interprets the constitution, and it becomes the law of the land, the supreme law of the land, you can either follow it or you can leave your job if you're working for the government. now, i personally think bobby jindal talked about a lot of different situations. i personally think a christian baker should not be compelled to make a wedding cake for a gay

marriage any more than a black baker should be compelled to make a cake that they find offensive. okay? but we can have that debate. >> mm-hmm. >> this debate is clear. she is a government official. the supreme court of the united states has interpreted the law and the constitution. i think they interpreted it wrong. i do believe that the federal government shouldn't be in this business. it should be up to the states. to make the decision. but once the supreme court speaks, opinions are irrelevant. you don't like it, elect a president and do it through the democratic process. this is outrageous. she is a -- >> yeah. >> she's overstepping her bounds. that's her business. she can leave.

if she wants to leave. but if you want to be president of the united states, i really would hope that you wouldn't be sending the message out that we only follow the laws we want to follow. we only follow the supreme court rulings that we decide line up with our own individual beliefs. it's dangerous. and the republican party is driving, driving the bus over the cliff. in august and early september, and this -- >> oh, yeah. >> s-dash, dash, dash, is going to come back and blow up in her face, and a lot of the people who are cheering this are going to in january of 2017, they're going to have postmortems. how did this happen? we don't -- we don't know how this happened. and they're going to be wringing their hands. come back to august and early september and roll the tape. and you will see how it

happened. this is -- this is outrageous. >> the "washington post" supports s.a.t. scores for the classes of 2015 were the lowest since the test was overhauled ten years ago. >> you know what that suggests? >> bye-bye, the s.a.t. >> donald trump is right. we need to make america great again. >> the s.a.t.s going down, another sign. >> carly is getting ready for her s.a.t. >> working really hard. >> you need to give her the cap, make america great again. i have given it to all my children. they walk around with it. it pushes -- it pumps their iq up 15, 20%. >> they have red, white, and blue. >> we have all of them. >> really, red, white, and blue? >> i need one for her to wear. okay. >> all her s.a.t. prep in that hat. >> the scores are down. what does that test say? why is it important? because i took it. >> shower in it, you know. >> they shower in it.

jack is going to go to his first day of first grade in a make america great cap. >> you should get him a make america great lunch pail. >> we have one. you need to go to the presidential campaign store. >> can wall street see another day of gains after rebounding from a two-day sell off. >> plus -- >> they will tell you it's the hardest they ever worked in their life. some of them will tell you it was the hopiest they have ever been in their life. i think all of them will tell you that it's certainly one of the most intense and cherished experiences they will ever have in their life. >> a new film by oscar-winning director alex gibney explores the hard charging life of steve jobs. alex joins up in a few minutes. we'll be back with much more "morning joe." can you spot the difference? the wind farm on the right was created using digital models and real world location-based specs that taught it

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thought was important was this was where all the signatures are. there are all the people, the original group, that actually signed the machine. there's steve jobs. right in the middle. my name is over here. >> why did you do that? >> because the people that worked on it consider themselves, and i certainly consider them, artists. these are the people that under different circumstances would be painters and poets, but because of the time that we live in,

this new medium has appeared. in which to express one's self to one's fellow species. and that's a medium of computing. >> that was a clip from the new documentary, steve jobs, the man in the machine. with us now, the film's director, alex gibney. we also have brian sullivan anddorian warren at the table as well. alex, thank you for coming back. steve jobs. i never met him. i never knew him. i love him. he's inspiring. >> uh-huh. >> he's our thomas edison. he is remarkable. everything he touches turns to gold. blah, blah, blah. i believe it all. as you get closer to steven jobs, your documentary reveals the love dissipates a bit. >> well -- >> love by strangers, loathed by a lot of people who knew him. >> befoautiful from afar.

a lot of people thought of him as santa claus. there is that part of him. there are people who thought of him as the pod father. a corleoni of silicon valley. one guy we talked to talked about his exit interview with steve jobs when he's going to another company steve said you have been a member of our foomally for a long time. if you so much as take one member of our family with you, i'm going to take you out. >> shows an anecdotal bit of evidence, too. a guy who had no -- >> he famously ended all of apple's charitable programs as soon as he took the helm. >> why? >> he said famously he thought it was a waste of time. this is odd baz you think of steve jobs as the hip guy who used to vilify bill gates as the tupperware salesman. bill gates, after all, is the guy responsible for giving away

$28 billion. >> exactly. bill gate was supposed to be the stiff in this competition, and he was the guy that famously said, well, if gates dropped acid, listened to the beat ls, sort of the hippie genius, but certainly not the softer edges. >> i think steve fashioned himself as this counterculture hero, but it was kind of -- now we're learning more about him. kind of the afeckitations of the counter culture. >> i got to go to apple a few times when he was there. and to your point, you're exactly right. i mean, apple, we sart of focus, it's cool, it's cool. it is cool from a product perspective, but i can tell you that the cars were in the parking lot at apple headquarters earlier than other companies and they left later. it was a hard-working, high-pressure, hard-charging company. there's nothing wrong with that. that's probably why they're so successful. at the same time, your point of he was counterculture because he

was into yoga. he was thrown out of apple, he got burned by corporate culture after a while and then just got hard. >> the difference between young steve and old steve is he got power and he understood how to use power. at apple, they had their elbows out under the backboard, and i think that, you know, frankly, he was involved in a number of schemes including a stock backdating scheme for which i think he -- i know he threw a couple people under the bus. it's a little surprising to me that the s.e.c. backed off. there's a lot of darker stuff in the apple story that people haven't talked about. >> alex, let me get you to talk about the darker side. in your previous films, you explore this nicely. in this film, you explore two dark sides. one is the cost to us as consumers. you say the iphone inhibits your creativit creativity, doesn't enhance it. you also have this place on fox calm, which is where all the workers we don't see make our devices. talk to us about the darker side

of apple and its success. >> i should say whrx it comes to china, apple isn't the only company that manufactures in china. there's a lot of tough conditions in china for a lot of companies over there. one of the intriguing things or interesting things about apple, there was a chinese activist who was responsible for investigating a lot of environmental and labor practices in china. he engaged with all of the tech companies and they all listened to what he had to say. all except for one, apple. they wouldn't even hear him. the only time he got a hearing at apple is after steve jobs resigned. >> so, we were talking about the dark side. again, i never met him. so let's end on a point of light. what makes steve jobs such a remarkable inventor, such a remarkable businessman, such a remarkable designer? i mean, a once in a century, once in a generation leader. >> what made him great, i think, was that he -- he introduced us to this idea that these machines

that he was manufacturing, and they were magnificent machines, could be part of us. you know, before there was steve jobs, we were terrified of these things. suddenly, they became an extension of us, almost part of us. so he changed things in that way very much. steve jobs, the man in the machine, is in theaters this friday. alex gibney, thank you so much for sharing parts of that with us and great job once again. >> thanks. up next, weekly jobless numbers just released moments ago. we'll look at what they are and how they could impact wall street. plus, it isn't just mcdonald's. another fast food chain will now serve breakfast all day long. we'll be right back.

let's discuss medical supplies i'm kind of happy with my guys. i think you'll love our newe line the stuff my vendor sells works fine. and my budget's small, just so you know. ♪ should i stay or should i go when you choose to go for business, go to the new choicehotels.com it makes finding the right room faster and easier than ever. and right now stay two times and earn a free night book now at choicehotels.com brian, we're looking at the markets. up, down, up, down, roller

coaster ride. you can't really predict what's going to happen. but we've got weekly job claims out. jobless claims out. what are they and what does it mean for the market, what does it mean for interest rates? a lot of big things. >> a lot of questions, joe. 282,000, not bad. a little higher than expected. anything under 300,000 is fine. tomorrow is the big daddy, the monthly jobs number. that's the one that could determine whether or not the federal reserve raises interest rates in two weeks for the first time in nine years. >> is there a number thatual make a decision? >> unemployment rate is 5.3%. donald trump says it's higher, but the official number is 5.3%. as long as it doesn't move ma markedly away from that, we're okay. to your point of market volatility, eight of the last nine days we moved up triple digits. the fact we went up 500, down 400, up 600, down 400, it's just a sign that the market has issues.

the reason the public is a little annoyed. >> you know what happened with china last night? >> chyna has a holiday, thank goodness, because they have been driving the market. they have that military parade you talked about. they have a holiday. >> the military parade? >> big. >> very fascinating news out of china last night, which shows they're starting to feel the economic pinch. breaking news overnight that chinese government says they're going to cut 300,000 people from the army. >> they have to find something for people to do. i found that announcement surprising, joe, because they need to employ people, not fire people, because they don't have enough work for everybody they've got already. interesting to see what happens. china has been driving the bus. china has been slowing for four years. i mean, they're slowing to 7%. i mean, we would love to have that problem. slowing to 7%. i mean, we would be lucky if we could hit 4% again. >> yeah. >> i'm a little more concerned about our friends to the north. i know i'm a little out there. canada, they're in a recession because of oil's drop.

we import a ton from china. we do not export, don't sell a lot to china. we sell three times more to canada than we do to china. >> that's why we should build a wall, okay. anyhow -- >> quickly, mika. you know, first of all, i think -- >> that's a long wall. montana is a big state, mika. >> the people of mcdonald's earlier this week showed themselves to be people of faith who love god and love america. >> mm-hmm. >> and now, white castle -- >> yeah. >> stepping in line as well. >> are you serious, white castle? >> they brought us a breakfast food, the breakfast sandwich. they were incredible. please, white castle, send them back. we want more. >> starting on the menu september 10th, you can order an original slider with egg and cheese. >>. [ fst anytime. >> breakfast anytime. >> what do you think? >> i love it. >> this is a nice thing, but for me, i think mcdonald's is trying to be like, they're under pressure to be healthier.

they should maybe go the other way. look at jack-in-the-box is booming. here, have eight hamburgers with bacon, avocado, and a candy bar on a bun with a side order of a taco and that soars. >> that's breakfast for me. >> brian, you're done. >> no, he's not. >> question i had -- thank you, go hoagies. we're going to beat ohio state on monday night. >> you don't believe that. but you're saying it while looking into the camera. >> up next, she made history as the first female coach ever in the nfl. jen welter is next on "morning joe." [ male announcer ] eligible for medicare? that's a good thing, but it doesn't cover everything. only about 80% of your part b

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and help stop joint damage. enbrel, the number one rheumatologist-prescribed biologic. i started playing football 15 years ago. and i fell in love. it was -- actually, fell in love as a little kid, but i didn't have a chance to play until after college. and i changed my whole life around to be able to make that happen. but i didn't start playing football to be here. i didn't even dream that it was possible. and i think the beauty of this is that though it's a dream i never could have had, now it's a dream other girls can grow up and have. >> that was dr. jen welter when she was introduced by the cardinals as the first female nfl coach in history. why is it a dream you never could have? you never thought of it, we don't think of these things for ourselves? >> because there were no women in it.

no way i could look at somebody on the sidelines and think, you know, i want to be like that person. you know, there were no girls there. the no-girls zone. not allowed. >> not even a part of the reality. >> so how did it change? how did you change it? how did the cardinals change it? >> you know, after they hired sarah thomas, the first female ref, i was coaching in indoor football at the time. and i believe i was the first woman to coach in indoor football as well at that time, or at least one of the first ones. maybe they didn't talk about it. who knows if it existed. but when bruce arians said, you know, at the owners meeting that he could see a woman coaching football, why not? it became a situation where my head coach was like, we should call bruce. now, me being a girl on the outside, that's like the line you don't cross. that's the wall. that's the nfl. like, i kind of looked at him like he was crazy. >> really? >> absolutely. then he literally said to me, he said, can you give me the number?

i was like, i don't know. can i? i ended up calling on his behalf, and leaving a message. >> for bruce. >> for bruce, from devon. >> on behalf of you. >> on behalf of me. i don't think i said it was me. >> what are you, the secretary? >> exactly. >> whatever. >> i was undercover. so a couple weeks later, bruce called. >> i love that. >> yeah, a couple weeks, bruce called devon and they were talking, and i walked into practice the next morning. i mean, really tired. we used to practice add 6:00 in the morning. he said you would never guess who i talked to last week. i was like, i have no idea. this was a couple weeks before then. he said bruce arians. he wanted to ask me about you. they talked for a good long time. from there, one of the things that bruce said is, it's in my heart like i would like to consider jen for, you know, the nfl internship. and do you think she would do it? i believe devon said, you know, she didn't do it i would kill her. >> was there any part of the

process where you thought, you know what, i'm going to go for this. i want to do this. or was it such an impossible reality to you that you kind of fell into it? i'm wondering if you ever got the confidence to start -- and there's no bad answer. >> no, no. you know. >> it's so unprecedented. >> i really just kind of was like, wow, that would be cool, but i was scared to tell anybody because if it doesn't happen, they would have been like, whatever, it's not going to happen. no girls can do that. like i said, no-girls zone. so i just kept it really quiet. didn't even tell anybody. not even my parents knew that bruce arians had called to talk to devon about me. and then one of my friends had interned with the cardinals. we had known each other for years. and he called when he was coming into dallas. he was like, i really think that you should consider the nfl internship. i was like, what? how did you know this? >> i love it because the coach, bruce arians who is a virginia

tech hokie. >> come on. >> why not? did a great thing, mika. a progressive dude. >> he did a smart thing because she's really good. >> great thing, smart thing. all good. let's change gears. tomorrow could be the greatest decision in the history of human kind, the deflategate. you like the new england patriots. >> this is what we need in the nfl. >> what are nfl players saying about this, jen? what are the nfl insiders saying about this? >> i have said many times that i'm so sick and tired of everyone talking about tom brady's balls. i think his wife would have every reason in the world to get jealous. >> make tom brady great. >> the whole world wants to talk about tom brady's balls. >> to the other players in the nfl -- do they say this is bs, or wow, he's a cheater? what do they say? >> there's a little bit of both, but i think it really does start getting awkward to talk about balls that much. >> i'm with you. >> is that your favorite topic of conversation?

>> when you do deflategate, it's weird. >> it is weird. >> so, a year ago, we were talking every diabout what was happening with ray rice and the problem with the commissioner. this morning, the "washington post" has this story on the most powerful man in sports. the nfl is an extraordinary machine. >> it is. it is. it is a machine that changes our culture. if you think about it, i mean, everybody wants to ask me if, you know, if it is an nfl problem, domestic violence. i say, no, it's a societal problem that happens to be magnified when it's an nfl player. because now all of a sudden, we pay attention. and when we pay attention to things like that, whether it's an nfl player or someone else, it becomes a catalyst for change. so to see things that happened in the nfl become markers in our society for change, of course, you're going to say he's one of the most powerful men in sports

because everybody looks to the nfl. >> yeah. >> fascinating. could talk to you forever. dr. jen welter, congratulations on all your success in breaking barriers. we really appreciate your being on the show. that does it for us on "morning joe." "the rundown" is straight ahead right here on msnbc. what is that? it's you! it's me? alright emma, i know it's not your favorite but it's time for your medicine, okay? you ready? one, two, three. [ both ] ♪ emma, emma bo-bemma ♪ banana-fana-fo-femma ♪ fee-fi-fo-femma ♪ em-ma very good sweety, how do you feel? good. yeah? you did a really good job, okay?

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good morning. i'm jose diaz-balart in miami. you're looking live at pictures out of south florida. any minute, we expect to hear from vice president joe biden. he's going to be speaking to jewish leaders. he's going to be pushing hard to get them onboard with the iran nuclear deal. these are just live pictures getting in right now. this is his second day in south florida. second public appearance since talk of a 2016 run got serious. we're also watching the gop race and donald trump. later today, he's meeting with the head of the rnc. that meeting was announced just as the party sent a so-called loyalty pledge to each of the 17 gop candidates. it requires him to indorse the eventual nominee and not seek an independent run. trump was the only top candidate who se