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lives of teens who sexed. and the cameras are gone in south carolina. the struggle to heal continues. but first, election 2016 and the return of fear to voting on the campaign trail. good morning. i'm melissa harris perry. friday was the 14th anniversary of the september 11 terror attacks. the fear felt in the country was real and sustained, lasting not just weeks or months, but for years after the attacks. and there are signs that the fear is finally dissipating. the "new york times" reported that friday's memorials were smaller, quieter than in years past. it only shows that american voters, while still concerned about terrorism, rank it as less important to their vote as the economy and health care policy. for me the fear was always around the issue of flying, so

this friday i flew to new york, like i do almost every week in order to host this show. what was remarkable was i flew on september 11, something i had gone out of my way to avoid for years after the attacks out of fear. the fears that we all felt had very real policy consequences, the continuing war on terror, the creation of the department of homeland security, the patriot act. good or bad, these policies and practices were a direct consequence of a very real sense of fear. that is why it's so important to see the 2016 presidential candidates believe we're afraid of. for the past two weeks or so, several republican candidates have focused on the fear of crime fueled by two fatal attacks on police officers in houston and outside of chicago. in particular, they have blamed the black lives matter movement, and sometimes even president obama for making police officers gun-shy, em boldening criminals and causing a spike in violent crime. >> it's the liberal policies in this city that has led to the

lawlessness that's been encouraged by the president of the united states. >> i think they're trouble, i think they're looking for trouble. i looked at a couple of the people that were interviewed from the group. i saw them with hate coming down the street, last week talking about cops and police and what should be done to them, and that was not good. and i think it's a disgrace that they're getting away with it. >> i do think we're seeing the manifestation of the rhetoric and vilification of police that's coming from the top, that's coming from the president of the united states. >> governor scott walker, the only republican to be asked a question about black lives matter at the first gop debate last month. he seemed to blame president obama for the recent deaths of police officers. quote, in the last six years under president obama, we've seen a rise in anti-police rhetoric. instead of hope and change, we've seen racial tensions worsen and the tendency to use

law enforcement as a scapegoat. by blaming obama and black lives matter for an increase in crime or new attacks on police officers, they're working to conjure the fear and uncertainty of the '80s and '90s, when violent crime was at an all-time high. and capitalize on them. in 1993, you were more apt to be a victim of violent crime than in the 2000s. it has led to the over-incarceration of african-americans and the militarization of police, the very thing black lives matter are fighting against. republicans may be hoping they can link the movement of democrats like hillary clinton to the fear people felt at the peak of the crime wave and turn that fear into electoral victory. he writes, quote, it's worth

noting the extent to which those appeals come at the same time that republicans need to increase their share of the white vote to win a national majority. i would hope going negative rather than positive is a winning electoral strategy for republicans, but not so much they want to attract more white voters but because it would keep more people from coming out to the polls at all. when morale is low, republicans tend to win. the people who are durable voters tend to be older, whiter, more likely republican voters. when turnout is high, democrats have a more chance of winning because young, black and brown voters go to the polls, too. the effect of negative campaigning is it can often lead to lower turnout. it's called shrinking and polarizing, a term coined in 1995 by the political scientist steven ancazare in his book.

he wrote, negative politics rane rates disillusionment and distrust among the public. attack resonate with the popular beliefs that government fails, that elected officials are out of touch and quite corrupt. joining me now, meredith cox, assistant professor at florida university and author of "shape shifters, black girls and the choreography of citizenship." he is a columnist of the daily beast, and reverend thea jones, president of the illinois theological seminary. and reporter perry baker jr. thank you, all of you, for joining us. perry, let me talk to you first. do you think this campaign -- you've been following a lot of campaigns, but do you think this

republican primary is more negative in general, or are we still just very much in the land of normal politics at this point? >> i still think we're in the land of normal politics, but i think what you see is this -- because donald trump, who i would argue is a more negative candidate or the cultural views from the past, he was the leading birther in 2011, i think the fact he's done so well on these cultural appeals, in the beginning of his campaign, jeb bush, marco rubio as well, talked a lot about how they wanted to expand the electorate, speak more in spanish, bush speaks spanish all the time, bush's message hasn't really worked so far. trump talking about americans the way he does has worked. so i'm not surprised ted cruz have eaten the message of black lives matter, because trump has taken the voters and have to

figure out how to give back to the conservative right and win back the voters trump is currently getting. >> part of what i hear from perry there is if the issue of primary versus general election, right? so this idea of shrinking and polarizing is really troubling in a general election. but in a primary, you actually do have already small and already highly partisan voters. so i'm wondering if it kind of generates a space where fear-based politicking is rewarded. >> right, and i think part of what is really important to understand is that when we have a disproportionate, ridiculously small segment of the population that has accumulated vast wealth and power and the politicians who support this segment of the population, the biggest threat to that power is a populous that is educated, more informed, and especially united. the best way to squash solidarity is create this fear of difference that we see now

through the negative campaigning we're seeing happening right now, which is the creation of this dangerous other who is defined as unamerican, who is defined as a non-citizen, usually non-white, right, and sort of attached to systems of poverty that are used to blame the victim in many cases. and so what happens, even though this is a primary, the representation of this idea that somehow what we think of as this idealized, mythical american nation that never really existed is under attack by these threatening others. >> which to me feels, dean, like it connects so culturally with september 11. part of the reason i wanted to come in with talking about that was i genuinely -- and i think most of us did -- felt afraid after september 11, right? there was a sense of vulnerability, national vulnerability that in the 20th and 21st century had not been something that americans had previously had to cope with. but the shift from that sense of

genuine vulnerability based on a real threat to the kind of anti-muslim discourse and the kind of willingness to give up civil libertys, it felt like that's where that fear goes from useful to deeply damaging. >> i think that fear, irrational fear drummed up by politicians will help. friday was my 14th anniversary of no longer being white in this country. before that i looked white, but i'm defined as a minority. i view the world as a minority. i'm very, very sensitive to issues like black lives matter and dehumanization by the right. i really expected, frankly, that the politicians would pivot from gays to demonizing muslims in this race. i never felt they would demonize latinos. attacking us is easy. we're a small group. they turn to latinos and black

lives matter. politically it makes no sense to me except internally in the small sport of the gop primary. i still think sadly they're going to come back to us. i like attention but i don't need this kind of attention. >> all of you have set out here this idea of -- even whether or not it makes sense politically, for me there's also kind of a big moral sort of arc question out there about the policy of democracy itself, and if this kind of discourse, the black lives matter is responsible for rather than the victims of violence, then we actually invert where power ought to rest with the democracy, it ought to rest with the people. >> and what we see happening, sadly, we can trace it back to 9/11, but it's been from the beginning of the united states a core, natural part of our identity. it's to drive politics by finding a group of people to

marginalize and oppress and turn into the demonization of the group. now in the swirl of that story of slavery, you find gay people pulled in, you find iranians pulled in, muslims pulled in, latinos are pulled in. it just sucks the whole world into it and drives the political population that requires it. what does america think of black lives matter? we have some exclusive polling data to bring you next. stick with us.

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they have a positive view of black lives matter moovrmt. 25% have a negative view. i don't know where this other 35% are, but they're either negative or haven't heard of black lives matter movement. a majority of people, black, white and latino, believe the country needs to do more to give equal rights to white americans. the same is true of democrats at 78%, 55% of independents but only 42% of republicans. a slim majority, 51%, say enough has been done already. that's changing even within the republican party. a year ago only 27% of republicans said there is more to be done with equal rights. so we've gone up 15 percentage points in just 12 months. maybe the black lives matter movement is working in some important ways. i wanted to come to you, because on september 2nd, nicki haley

was doing some amazing things. >> most people live in fear because local police are too intimidated to do their jobs are black. black lives do matter, and they have been disgrace ffully jeopardized by the movement that has laid waste to ferguson and baltimore. >> perry? >> i guess wow would be the first comment about what she said, but i'm not surprised by it. haley was very involved in removing the confederate flag in ferguson, and i applaud her for that. that said, there's talk about will she be a new leader, will she change the republican party. the answer to that is no, i thought ferguson would be a one-move action.

haley very much wants to be covered for governor in the republican party. and she was separated by people with those visceral comments. somehow she needs to be in the mainstream of the party, and most of the party wanted the flag to come down, but they also aren't very happy with the black lives matter movement. >> there was a little piece of brilliance saying black lives do matter, but then shifting the blame to ferguson. i guess part of what's interesting to me is trying to figure out, then, what are the strategies to push back against that? that really is brilliant. i'm going to bring the flag down. you can't make a claim that i am aligned with this symbol of racial intolerance and slavery, but also i'm going to level this critique against the movement. >> the strategy to it is just to

speak truth, and the truth is black lives matter is not trying to destroy the country, they're trying to make the country the country they claim to be, so it's just going back to fundamental values. to call us social movement for justice, the kind of evil sbenty it's being made into? what is the new testament if not a story of jesus leading a social movement for justice that upset everybody around them, but it was true, and it was the work of god and the world. >> there is something both about what you've done there in terms of a reclamation of a space that i think often gets handed over to the right. the religion exists on the right, that's theirs, so we have to talk about a republicly indicati -- replication of black lives matter. this feels like a choreography of politics very clearly about

stoking a certain kind of fear, and at the same time with your hand on it saying, i'm with martin luther king. >> any time you have a segment of the society that's the most vulnerable to state violence and to the extreme inequities in this culture, when they speak out, when they stand up, when they fight back, they are immediately categorized not just as defiant but disruptive to the democracy, disruptive to the social fabric in some ways. >> which they are. it actually is disruptive, but on purpose. >> right. so part of what i think is really important to understand about black lives matter and how this is sort of being concealed through this rhetoric is that black lives matter, the fight against state violence is not just about these very visible, spectacular deaths of black youth by police officers but is about the slow death that black folks, primarily poor black folks and poor people in this

country experience on a daily basis that is brought to light time and time again -- we see it happening in the civil rights movement. this is not new what black lives matter is doing to use these events to talk about deaths that are not spectacular, deaths due to poverty, deaths due to lack of education. >> i want to listen to ben carson for a moment who also does an aversion flip on black lives matter just to get a response. let's take a listen. >> i'm very happy to meet with black lives matter. you know, my beef with black lives matter movement has been i think they need to add a word, and that word is "all." all black lives matter. including the ones that ar are eradicated by abortions,

including the ones that are eradicated on the streets every day by bombs. >> yesterday he said it was bullies. he said the black lives matter movement is bullies. he said the audacity of being able to stand up and speak out against police brutality -- we finally see it through videos, and they say, well, the police are being gunned down. statistics say that's not true. in fact, 20% less police officers were killed by gunfire so far this year than last year. they were killed many years while bush was president. >> it's not as though black people have not also been actively fighting against street violence, the accessibility of guns that are the kind of routine parts, the idea that somehow black communities aren't and haven't been deeply motivated and activated around that, and even around the way -- even if we're kind of a pro-life, anti-abortion stance, they said, hey, there are

economic justice issues associated with that as well. perry, let me come back to you one last time before we go. how much do you think black lives matter is going to be a central feature determining in the context of the republican primary, sort of where people are positioned on it? >> i don't think it will be very important, because jeb bush also criticized the movement. jeb bush said a few months ago all lives matter. one thing i think is important is the rise of ben carson is not an accident in terms of black lives matter. conservatives like to hear this kind of person who is black saying this movement is invalid and not great. i think the fact that ben carson is doing so well is a symbol of conservatives having someone they believe criticizing president obama the way he does. he's in second place now. i think you'll hear about that on wednesday in terms of candidates criticizing black lives matter. it will be hard to win on that because they all have the same

position. >> harry bacon jr. in washington, d.c., thank you so much for joining us. up next, fear, voting and kim davis. some republicans running for president want to believe big l! wasnthat big steve... hey! come back here, steven stay strong! what's that? you want me to eat you? honey, he didn't say that! he did, very quietly... you can't hear from back there! don't fight your instincts. with each 150 calories or less, try our chocolatey brownies, tangy lemon bars and new creamy cheesecakes. fiber one. go on, have one! when your windshield needs for these parents, driving. around was the only way... ...to get their baby to sleep. so when their windshield got cracked, we can't drive this car they wanted it fixed right... ...so they scheduled with safelite. our exclusive trueseal technololgy means a strong...

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. race is not the only sorts of electoral fear-mongering going on these days. >> we will stand with kim, we will stand with the constitution, and we will stand with our faith and will not be bullied no matter if they incarcerate us! >> that was republican presidential candidate and former arkansas governor kick huckabee with kim davis, the county clerk in kentucky who was jailed because of failing to follow a court order of issuing licenses to same-sex couples. i battled about this a little bit, not because i have any question where i stand on this

status, but because the conscientious objection fueled by moral critique of law is central to a moral movement i care a great deal about. so tell me what's going on with ms. davis is not the same thing. >> i agree, and the history of the united states is having matters of conscience based in religion not participating in practice you find morally offensive is very important. in this case kim davis doesn't even want to not just herself do it, she wants to stop her clerks from doing it. she wants to say nobody can do it. that is so fundamentally different than our traditional understanding of conscientious objection. it's just become a religious spectacle and it's embarrassing to claim that this is christianity asserting itself in this form. >> this idea of shutting people out and not allowing them to -- >> no. >> do you think the pope's visit is likely to complicate this narrative that this constitutes what public christianity looks

like? this pope is still very traditionally catholic in a variety of ways but also is pushing some of the boundaries about action. >> i think some of the fear-mongering is swirling around because of the anxiety created in conservative religious america about this man who is the most powerful religious speaker in the world coming to the united states and preaching the gospel of love, of acceptance, of tolerance, of inclusion. it is a terrifying moment for people for whom that narrative signals the end of what they value. >> dean, you wrote a piece in terms of thinking about this question of religious liberty writing. "does religious liberty apply to muslims?" about a flight attendant who asked for the accommodation not to serve alcohol because of her religious beliefs which the airline granted and then revoked. this is this idea that religious liberty is only for a particular

version of religious belief. >> i support religious liberty for all americans. there is a difference, though, between an accommodation -- i used to be a lawyer under the civil rights act, title 7, where in your religious beliefs are compromised, you go to your employer and discuss it. in the case of the clerk, she's saying, no, my law applies to all five clerks. they say the one most opposed is christian shia law. that's what she's trying to do. it's shorthand for saying, i'm taking my religious text and making it my own. that's what she was doing, christian sharia law. she's not saying no on the flight, so don't drink alcohol. she's saying i'll do other work.

the other flight attendants will serve drinks and i'll do other work. it's up to them whether it's a hardship or not. they may have revoked it and now it's going to the courts to decide it. you had ted cruz, you had huckabee. ted cruz said the gay community is becoming a jihad. this is almost the doorstep of violence. he's bringing people to that doorstep and it's scary. >> we have ted cruz saying today's judicial lawlessness crossed into judicial tyranny. today for the first time ever, the government arrested a christian woman for living according to her faith. this is wrong. >> it is sort of trotted out by huckabee, for example, as this

thing to be transgressed and used religion to talk about that transgression. then we have to think about how is allowed to transgress the law and under what conditions -- >> you can't even be impolite to a police officer and it's not against the law. >> this is not about her religious freedom, this is about her homophobia, right? this is also about the anxieties and fears around this idea that the heterosexual, normal family is disappearing, and there's this idea of a christian family and what this new pope in many ways symbolizes in his refusal to exclude folks, his refusal to create these boundaries around who can be seen as a human, who has rights, you know, who do we call products of this larger christian-loving family. so when we talk about religious freedom and we talk about the law, it's just interesting to note who has the ability to transgress or to talk about --

>> of course, the fascinating part of the pope is because he's global. it's not just civil rights, it's not just as an american or citizen, it's the human rights story. when it comes to fear of voting, the ultimate bogeyman is still the bomb. republicans are playing that card, too.

in northern california, two fast-moving wildfires are forcing thousands of residents to flee their homes this morning. the newest fire northwest of sacramento grew from 50 acres to 40,000 acres in less than 24 hours. four firefighters are hospitalized after getting second-degree burns battling the flames. mr. schwartz is in california with the latest. >> reporter: just over here,

this used to be a neighborhood. there was a duplex just down the way that was completely in sin rated. we got in town about 12:00 midnight, and here is what we saw. this is main street middletown. you can see there is all kinds of torching going on. there's house after house, building after building that's going up in flames. all through town we're hearing explosions. those are propane tanks going up. we've heard a dozen of those explosions so far. right now they're calling a few firefighters back over the fire radio. we've heard them calling firefighters back after structures like this are just so fully engulfed in flames, there is no saving them. four firefighters who were burned earlier after being caught by a flare-up were rushed to the hospital where they're now recovering from second-degree burns. while an army of their fellow firefighters are on the lines

across the state at the over 60,000-acre valley view fire. >> there are so many homes leveled, burned to the ground. >> reporter: firefighters are saving the type of catastrophic damage seen in middletown, california. it's so sad seeing this fire. you'll see five houses completely down, one standing, and then more houses completely obliterated. more bad news out here. we're told in the middle of the night in the middle of the fire fight, the firefighters in middletown completely ran out of water. they're dry. it's up to the firefighters to conserve the water in these trucks and make sure every drop is used where it needs to be. >> this has been a particularly difficult fire season in california. at least 13 fires are burning across the state. officials are hoping cooler temperatures in the coming days will help firefighters gain the

upper hand. this is something to be afraid of. stay with msnbc for more on this developing situation. up next, fear of voting. ted cruz says you should be afraid for your life. i work on the cheerios team. and when i found out that my daughter-in-law, joyce, can't eat gluten, we found a way to remove the grains that contain gluten, from the naturally gluten free oats that cheerios are made of. so now we can have cheerios together, anytime.

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welcome to windows 10. the future starts now for all of us. this week president obama secured a major victory when on thursday senate democrats blocked a recovery effort to hold the sixth nation accord with iran. the house rebuked the agreement with iran in a somewhat symbolic vote referencing 9/11. not a single republican voted in favor of the iran deal and 25 democrats went with president obama to join them. the vote cannot stop the agreement from being adopted next month, and earlier this week, gop candidates ted cruz and donald trump drew hundreds to capitol hill to protest the agreement. >> if this deal goes through, we

know with absolute certainty, people will die. americans will die, israelis will die, europeans will die. we're now talking about giving the ayatollah a homicidal maniac who hates america every bit as much as bin laden did, giving him $1 million to carry out his murderous plan. >> never, ever, ever in my life have i seen any transaction so incompetently negotiated as our deal with iran. >> you were in iran recently. can you reflect on this deal in ways that might sound a little different than mr. cruz or mr. trump. >> oh, my goodness. so contrast what they're saying with my experience in the streets of iran where i'm running into young iranians, millennials -- they're

two-thirds of the population there. when they find out we're americans, they run up and hug us. they say, we love you. they want to talk about music, they want to talk about television, they want to talk about global politics. they love the fact i was a christian. they wanted to hear about my christian background. they were eager to share their muslim identity. it was a very open experience of love and excitement about what this means for that generation in iran and the future of the world. there is no better antidote to isis than iranian millennials. they are the force that can contain exactly the thing they should be talking about, which is isis, which is a real threatment nthreat. not a make-believe threat. >> part of what i hear you saying is a sense of curiosity and open connection with the rest of the world, and that these millennials, a standard portion of their population, reflects that. part of what i'm wondering is, if part of our challenge with

americans is if we don't know why iran has nothing to do with 9/11, where it might even be on the map. we actually are, in so many ways, globally illiterate or insufficiently illiterate, and because we don't have anything to push back against it, it's all in a vacuum. >> it sdrks adoes, and to make personal, only 25% of americans have a muslim friend. people don't know much about muslims. they don't know much about other parts of the world. sometimes they're busy, sometimes they're lazy, sometimes it's a combination. >> we don't teach about public schools because it's not going to be on the test. >> you can see it in florida and other parts of the country. they're like, how dare you indoctrinate my children? islam is part of the faith.

i think you'll find people who are great around the world and like america, you'll have people in iran saying horrible things about america at the same time. i'm hopeful the iran deal is helpful to us. i hated the rhetoric of ted cruz and donald trump. i hated the fact they were at an event co-sponsored by one of the biggest islamic folks in the country. i wrote about it in "the daily beast." that upset me as well. >> if we go back all the way to 1964, we see a kind of fear-mongering used on this side by one of my favorite presidents, lbj. let's look at the act in '64. >> one, two, three, four, five, seven, six, six, eight, nine, nine --

>> eight, nine, six, five, four, three, two, one. these are the stakes. to make a world in which all of god's children can live. >> so this idea of the kind of existential threat to the nation being -- and the idea that any president, democrat or republican, wouldn't do absolutely everything they can to protect the nation. >> rhetoric and ignorance is the most dangerous combination. so part of what's happening here with the rhetoric, particularly with trump. there is this language of, we're losers now, we can't beat anybody. >> we get tired of winning. >> we're going to win, win, win with no real plan, right? what this does is also feed into this fear of this mysterious other. we have these mysterious others who actually live in the borders of the united states, then we have these mysterious others

that we don't know where they live, we just know they're browner and maybe more dangerous and have bombs. part of that language of we can't beat anybody and we're losers also feed into this very american idealogy of competition, and there's no way that we can resolve conflicts with folks that -- overseas, that we can't have this global way of understanding each other's cross-difference, that we can't come to resolution. we always have to have an enemy. >> so this idea of the global world in our position, i think that's one of the other fears currently being stoked. the fear of others, one of the most controversial questions here, is about the response to the syrian refugee crisis, and in general how we think about refugees and immigrants. that's up next. now that's a full weekend.

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this weekend response to the refugee crisis in europe has led

president obama to allow 10,000 refugees into the united states beginning february 1st. reaction to that came from peter cain in new york. he said, quote, our enemy now is islamic terrorism, and those people with coming from a country filled with islamic terrorists. we don't want another boston marathon bombing situation. i could think of things that are not the same in one sentence. >> peter cain should get a reward. he said the threat from america is far greater from the right than it just is statistically. donald trump says we're letting in more muslims than christians. statistically it's not true. about 60% being allowed in are christian, 40% are muslim.

there were 4 million syrians to leave the country in flight. they are leaving in the hopes of making a better lives for their children. we've only taken 1500 of the syrian refugees, others have taken a thousand. now we're talking about 10,000. that's the least we can do as a nation. we're a christian nation, let's act like christians. >> in addition to boston, syria, all those things together, there is also a way that gets connected to this anti-immigration discourse. donald trump released on instagram what feels very much like a contemporary horton scare video, but this time about immigration. let's take a look. >> yes, they broke the law, but it's not a felony. it's an act of love.

>> so obviously it's taking what bush was saying out of context. bush at that point was talking about people who cross borders in order to connect with and be with their families, to do better for their families, but their interperspectispersing ths with people who have committed crimes. >> the power of language and the power of representation in this political campaign is we can't overstate. what i'm most fascinated by is how these candidates are reaching back, right, reaching back to the '80s, to images from the '90s, and they still have traction. why do these representations and i am ajz a-- images and fears o other keep turning out. why can we still use the same language in so many different

contexts. >> in part i keep wondering -- because if we're talking about the european refugee crisis, i'm just reminded of our refugee crisis last year. the language of refugee meant people seeking refuge and so many other people across the southern border, many of them were children who were unaccompanied. and yet our response isn't to provide refuge, it's to push back, to build the wall. >> and to make just a not so subtle point, except for native americans and african-americans brought here as slaves, every single person came here as an immigrant, and a vast majority of them refugees. that's us. >> it doesn't necessarily get to empathy. let's witness marco rubio here, someone who has a much more proximate mat stostory of comin those circumstances. >> i would be open, america has always been open to allowing a

certain number of refugees coming to the united states. we need to be careful that terrorists don't infiltrate themselves with innocent people. >> his personal familial story is connected to seeking refuge, but yet terrorism. >> we have to be honest, fear-mongering, it's worked for the right and people on the left. so for them to say, look, there is a fear and i'm going to save you from it is a staple of politicians. it doesn't get traction with us. until we change the people, they're going to keep doing it. why change? they're not inventing a new wheel. they're putting their voice and scary figure in that reel and sending it out to us, and as long as we buy it, they're going to keep selling it. >> we keep getting the democracy we deserve because we keep making those choice. all my guests will be here in the next hour, but coming up next, feeling the burn. what the election of 1988 can

tell us about bernie sanders today. plus, teen sexting and prosecution politics. there's more coming at the top of the hour. i work on the cheerios team. and when i found out that my daughter-in-law, joyce, can't eat gluten, we found a way to remove the grains that contain gluten, from the naturally gluten free oats that cheerios are made of. so now we can have cheerios together, anytime. before i had the shooting, burning, pins-and-needles of these feet...e pain, ...served my country...

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welcome back. i'm melissa harris-perry. we could spend a whole hour talking about the presidential primaries, but let's hit pause and hit rewind and go back to the presidential campaign of 1988. in that year they called the ranks of the democratic candidates vying for the nomination, there were two contenders left standing. massachusetts governor michael do you cau d dukakis who had delegates, and ike turner, who had a clear run for the presidency. just days before the july 18

start at the democratic national convention in atlanta, there remained a stalemate between the two candidates. did dukakis want jackson to follow along behind him as the nominee? but jackson had fought a hard-won campaign primarily of african-americans, along with gay student and liberal voters. jackson believed that as the presumptive nominee, dukakis was responsible for bringing the party together by reaching out to jackson and his constituency. in the end, after a series of 11 hours of controversy between the two campaigns, they appeared at the convention side by side in a show of unity. jackson had fought for a number of changes in the party's platform, some of which he won and others which were voted down by delegates in the convention. dukakis also agreed to give jackson and members of his staff

positions in the fall campaign. but the perception by one group of voters was clear. opinion polls found that many white voters believed that dukakis had been too accommodating with jackson. looking back at dukakis' loss in 1988, the perception, quote, made it more difficult than it otherwise would have been to appeal to relatively conservative democrats, particular particularly, but not exclusively in the south, who react angrily at what she see as special treatment for jesse jackson. president obama blazed a trail for the democratic party. as james reed writes, party

leaders had every incentive to view jackson as a fulcrum, against whom the democratic candidate could pivot toward working class white voters. that's exactly what jackson did. clinton took the opportunity when jackson was sitting right next to him to level an attack against rapper sister who had appeared at congress a day before. >> she told the "washington post" about a month ago, and i quote, if black people kill black people every day, why not have a week and kill white people? she said, you can't call any black person in the world a racist. we don't have the power to do to white people what white people have done to us. if there are any good white people, i haven't met them. where are they? right here in this room. that's where they are. >> it was a rebuke directly to

sister solja, but to the people in the room. the message was clear. i am not a constituency of african-american followers, and clinton's strategy helped him win the presidency. fast-forward to presidential election 2016 and another democratic frontrunner who, in the latest poll, is facing real competition from another unlikely candidate who is trying to build a diverse coalition from the left. a poll released this work from quinnipiac university, bernie sanders has edged out hillary clinton 41% to 40 in the iowa caucuses. last week a meredith poll put him in the lead over clinton in the primary state of new hampshire. there is much to be fascinated about in the polls and sanders' emergence as a real contender

against clinton. the big d party is still alive and well, and the little d democracy can still prevail over political inheritance that surrounded the days of the clinton campaign. but there is no doubt that a sanders-clinton match-up brings lessons to the nominee. what did the lessons of 1992 tell us what it meant for democrats when it came to elect a president for the election. so nice to see you again. >> same here, melissa. >> i'm using this in part because i wonder if the enthusiasm on the left about a bernie sanders push of hillary clinton actually ends up pulling her to the left in a way that actually could potentially make it more difficult for her to win come generals. >> it's a good question. the other examples you brought up in past elections, the issue of race was built into it.

right now that doesn't seem to be it, because bernie sanders is not doing well among black voters in the democratic party. he's getting less than 5% in most polls. but hillary clinton has made some statements recently that suggest that she understands that she's getting attacked from the left, so she's talking about campaign finance reform, which is a big issue of bernie sanders. and there are a number of other issues, and certainly what's going on now with black lives matter, as you've been discussing this morning, is certainly playing a role into this. they could be tied together. we're now looking at polling on the democratic side. i'm seeing a democratic base that's actually happy with the idea of having a challenger to hillary clinton to keep her honest, as it were. i'm not talking about the honest and trustworthiness of e-mails -- >> responsive. >> yeah. even when she was leading in the polls by 60% earlier this year,

the democrats said, she could still face a challenger. she needs to prove her bona fide is with the party. i'm looking at the polling that says hillary clinton supporters would be happy with a bernie sanders nominee and bernie sanders supporters would be happy with a hillary clinton nominee as well. >> so it's not blood letting at this point. bernie was actually on "meet the press" this morning and was talking a little bit about a need for a robust turnout. let's take a listen. >> we are generating a lot of excitement not just in iowa and new hampshire but all across this country. and that means larger voter turnouts. >> so he's making a similar point. this isn't about, that means i can win. when he says larger voter turnouts, does bernie sanders -- when you look at the poll leader, do you feel what is staying power? it's not about these early states, it's about what obama

and clinton were able to do in '08 when they went kind of the whole 50 states. >> i think people want to see this debate play out. democrats want to see this debate play out. it's not an anti-hillary vote, as i said. it's this idea of this is generating some ideas and this is making us excited as democrats about this whole campaign. and in the end, while there's some danger here for hillary clinton because, as you showed, he's ahead in both iowa and new hampshire, and if she loses those two states, she could still build up her delegate majority, but it would seem to be a damaged candidate. the good part about this is it's making democrats excited about it, and turnout is going to be very important. the question is, does it move him too far to the left? there is the plus and minus of this. >> let me talk to you about the language you're using that it's not necessarily an anti-hillary vote. at the same time the polls may be showing that among actual ordinary voters, we're starting to see the rumblings of

democratic party leaders talking about plan b. this has become the language of maybe there is this defection somewhere, and i'm wondering if even reporting on the idea that party members are talking about a plan b, they're saying, wait a minute, maybe they're not as strong a candidate as they thought she was. >> you're not hearing that among the democratic base, you're really hearing it from the leaders. it's interesting, we hear these rumblings all the time, and it happens in both parties when it looks like their frontrunner may be getting a little weak and not do as well in the general election. she still is a strong candidate. what they're worried about is something that hasn't dropped yet, typically around the e-mails. and that could hurt her, and that's what they're more worried about. they're less worried about the idealogical moves because they feel she's confident enough that she can shift back and get that same groove that her husband got. and it's certainly not the same type of turmoil that we're seeing on the republican side when they don't know who the

frontrunner is. >> in fact, can we talk about the republicans? because the first time you and i had the chance to speak together, i was filling in for rachel, it was during a trump week, and part of what you said to me is, hey, this happens. especially in a crowded field, you get four weeks, six weeks. talk to me in a few weeks and we'll see whether or not trump is still trumping. sir, it has been a few weeks and trump is still trumping. what do we say now about what's happening? >> this is amazing on the republican side. it really is a tale. when we look at the democrats and republicans, it is a tail of two different electorates. democrats are happy with their leaders, they're happy with the leaders in congress. republicans tell us they're not happy with the leaders, it doesn't represent us. the congress has not served their own party well, their own voters well, and that's why they're staying they're sticking with donald trump. this is where he's getting his staying power from in an

incredibly angry electorate. >> that's fascinating to me that part of this is disa affection on the republican side. but this, i kind of like the democratic side leads to this complacency. up next, bernie sanders joins forces with professor cornell west. yep, that happened, and we're going to talk about that when we come back.

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on the love train. that's what bernie sanders' campaign is. it's a love train! >> i will now present to you, brothers and sisters of all colors, my dear brother, the next president of the united states, bernie sanders! >> that was professor cornell west giving a rousing introduction to dear brother bernie sanders yesterday where a crowd of about 1,000, a historically black college. joining me is my panel. let's just -- i want to start first with numbers and then we can kind of go to the cultural politics here.

in south carolina, there will be the first test where there is a portion of primary voters in the state. what if sanders performs very well in iowa and new hampshire. does he have a chance? >> not right now, but there is the possibility, and the opinion leaders, the thought leaders in communities throughout south carolina -- we see that everywhere. it doesn't matter race, creed, color, your community leaders in a primary will really guide you toward who you should vote for. there is a real question whether bernie sanders can make inroads to church leaders and community leaders in south carolina, because he's not polling as well as hillary clinton with african-american voters, because she and her husband have a track record with them. >> right, and they earned recognition and all, but it's also true the man who is now president, president barack

obama, was quite far behind in south carolina this far into the process in 2008. i wonder about the visual process that occurs when we saw bernie sanders directly addressed by black lives matter protesters who stepped up on the stage, and then cornell west, who is a long time leader in the community, who, in fact, has been doing work with black lives matter around the country, and he is representing bernie sanders as kind of the inheritor of the martin luther king legacy, and whether you see that as a disconnect or being a sharp inn sharpener to bernie sanders. >> there is this black lives community that supports the same people, and even in the black lives matter community we see different tecxtures to folks in power. yes, bernie sanders is the same

in terms of being on the street and being supportive while in the black lives matter movement weaver seen disruption of bernie sanders' political campaign and a pushback. these two things don't necessarily have to be in opposition to think about the history of folks in the black community that we were just talking about, holding our leaders accountable, all of our leaders, regardless of what they look like, whether they look like us or not, but really the challenge to understand in the black community what has been concealed, especially in the ways that politicians tend to pander to black folks, right? like doing the nay-nay, or this addressing a complex, entire group of folks is what we see within the black lives matter movement, specifically, people are responding to public figures in various ways. >> part of what i'm watching --

again, there are still large capabilities in black lives matter. his responses to president obama were observed. i wonder whether hillary clinton or potentially vice president biden have a similar sherpa, a similar sort of introductory -- obviously there is a ton of african-american leaders on the side of hillary clinton, but someone who can come in and say for us, for this reason, this person now. >> cornell west was great, what we just saw. i want to vote for bernie sanders after that. it was funny, it was moving, get on the love train. there was so much passion there. then you follow bernie sanders who is lower energy. the option of this 77-year-old man coming on is striking. only 24% view bernie sanders positively, some not knowing him.

just my radio show, i had callers call who were african-american, and i said, you're supporting bernie sanders? they said, i like him, but if he's a nominee, i'll definitely support him. >> i'm going to ask you a quick question about this before we go. >> let me tell you this. in my strong view, the republicans did not win last november. the democrats lost because a lot of their supporters are demoralized, not coming out to vote. working people, young people. >> we talk about race, but super fast, working people, young people. does he have the ability, bernie sanders, to get the crowd? >> i don't know if he does. it's too hard to get young voters out. coming up next, hillary clinton goes to church. >> whose lives she touched. my husband and my daughter.

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right now presidential candidate hillary clinton and daughter chelsea clinton along with former president bill clinton, they are all at washington, d.c.'s church to help celebrate the church's bicentennial. hillary was invited to talk about her reflections of the church. let's listen for a minute. >> there are so much in this community and this world who have so much to offer but never have the chance to live up to their god-given potential. talent and universal, but opportunity is not. too many people are held back by economic pressures and social barriers. it's still too hard for too many to find a good job that pays enough to support a middle class life. too many children don't get the education they need to succeed, and too many families find that no matter how hard they work,

they just can't get ahead. and as we've been reminded again and again recently, there are still hard truths to face about race, gender and sexual orientation in america. not too many people want to let their light shine, but they can't quite get out from under that bushel basket. it is way too heavy to lift alone. and that's where the village comes in. together as a church, a community, and yes, a country, we can open doors that are still closed. we can lift each other up and leave no one behind. we can unlock the potential of every american, and when we do that, we will unlock the potential of america itself. bou boundary has helped people for the past 200 years discover

their gifts every day through worship, hospitality, community outreach -- >> again, you're listening there to hillary clinton. she's speaking at the bicentennial of the church where they were members. she also spoke earlier. the former secretary of state is expected to spend the rest of the day in washington, d.c. fund raising for her campaign. joining us at the table is dr. theo jones, president of the theological seminary. we heard some of what the secretary of state had to say there, she used very clearly gender, race and sexual orientation, and the village needs to come in to provide those opportunities. that's pretty darn clear. >> what's there not to like about that message? and the fact she's doing it, we shouldn't miss it in the pulpit of a church. in a republican context where

right wing is being used as a weapon, she is using christianity as a way to open doors. and the first woman pastor of that church was just installed last year, so to have these two first women there together leading in a religious context is so powerful. >> i want to know a little about this church. there are churches where, if you're standing in the pulpit, and you say race, gender and sexual orientation, even just acknowledging those identities exist, you have blown up what that church normally is. is this a church used to hearing that kind of analysis from the pulpit, or did she just do something that's kind of on the boundaries? >> this is a church that has a long history speaking out about progressive politics and those words are common in so many pulpits now. she has this message, clearly a message, open doors, love. then we see donald trump's message, forget love. and yet donald trump is attracting millions of evangelical christians. who are these christians?

what bible are they reading? it's astonishing to see the contrast in the two of them with respect to not only just the political face they have but the way they're orienting themselves religiously. >> i wonder also, often when we see presidential candidates in pulpi pulpits, they are in someone else's pulpits, right, so they're not in their home connotation. clearly she knows she's on television and she's running for president, but it's a different kind of thing to be standing in your home church. >> right. and she grew up methodist. this is deeply and authentically who she is with respect to her liberal christianity. >> that's another thing because the authenticity question keeps coming up. >> i was thinking that when i was watching her, she comes across as somebody who knows who she is, knows where she belongs. it's extremely important to voters in the democratic primary, it's important across the board, and taking to the

pulpit like this, and we ever a visit to the pope coming up in a week, and he's going to give an address to congress where he's probably going to make a lot of republicans uncomfortable with the things that he says, and we are kind of seeing this movement where there is a movement on the left to try to retake religion for themselves. it's not just about being anti-abortion or these other things, that there is another side to religion. and i think she's trying to hook into that mentality that might be going on right now. >> look at all those women in the pulpit. good job making that call. that's pretty amazing. thank you to amy meredith cox, reverend thea jones. three months after the church massacre, we have an exclusive interview with the survivors.

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down in june have been called the emanuel 9. they want us to remember there were 12 people inside that church that fateful night. the survivors are grappling with the horror they witnessed. we sit down with two survivors and here's some of what they had to say. >> reporter: felicia sanders holds her blood-stained bible as a symbol of her faith and a memory of the horrific june evening that took so much from her. >> any connection i have to my aunt and my son, i'm going to keep. >> the clothes worn that day? >> i'm going to keep it. >> the bible? >> i'm going to keep it. >> it was them who drew her to the service that night, and now it's her faitheir faith that su them. >> my eyes were closed when the

shots rang out. >> reporter: around 12:00 noon, her aunt, 11-year-old granddaughter and son tywanza. >> i remember hi son saying, mama, he shot me in the head. and my granddaughter was hollering, saying she was so afraid. i sa i held her against me so tight and i had my other hand against tywanza and i said, just be quiet. i tried to talk to dillon. i can't say anything more because i had my hand on him the whole time, and then he shot tywanza more. i think back to those last moments. my hero. my hero.

and i watched him take his last breath. >> reporter: before leaving the room, the shooter stood above positive polly shepherd who hid under a table, praying there would be some survivors. >> did i shoot you yet? i said, no, i'm going to leave you to tell a story. >> this week they voted unanimously to create a memorial for mother emanuel. symbolic for a city that is still grieving and coping with the consequences of the massacre of t . joining me now, his district includes charleston county, from the radio show. how is the community doing in general? it's so easy for news media to move on. you all are still working through this, clearly. >> yes.

day by day. day by day. we're working to get back to a normal way of life, but at the same time still remembering, and that interview that you just played is so very, very important, i think, for us to individually and collectively understand that we owe it to the memory of these people to work to operate with more understanding, more togetherness, more love and to try to put a halt to some of the hate that has been involved in politics in our world right now. >> i wanted to ask you a little bit about the confederate flag. obviously -- you know, the huge national outcome that emerges as a result of this massacre is that flag coming down in south carolina. but i'm wondering if once it came down we thought, okay, great. we've had a win? and whether or not there is some other way we ought to be doing

justice to these victims and to these survivors. >> well, that's a very good question. i think the key point is, and it was great that the flag -- the confederate flag came down. but aside from that, there is a flag agenda. i think there are so many folks that are in love right now with senator clemente pinckney and the survivors. there was an agenda with pinckney, public education for everyone, professional jobs for everyone. i want everyone to go with that political philosophy he had. i think everyone would be better for that. >> obviously the forgiveness of so many of the family members

was just distinct in those early days. i'm wondering how the family and community is feeling right now about the decision to seek the death penalty for mr. roof? >> it's a mixed bag. folks have different philosophies, different beliefs as it relates to the death penalty. but at the same time we want justice to be done. we want to be able to move on in a better way, because -- and have a commitment to do that. i love the definition of commitment. commitment is what you do after the feeling is gone. so i think the big question is how, again, individually and collectively, we move on from here to make ourselves better, not only in our community of south carolina but in this country. >> thank you to state representative david mack iii in south carolina for reminding us that justice will require us not to look just to the flag but the flag agenda. i appreciate that insight.

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okay, a big part of making our tv show is having the best visual images to help tell a story. for this next segment we are going to be what we like to call picture poor, because this is one where we intentionally view very few images because this segment is about teenagers sending each other naked pictures. you know, sexting. in north carolina right now, a 17-year-old boy, he's a high school kid, and he plays quarterback for the school's football team, well, he's facing felony charges because he and his girlfriend exchanged nude photos of themselves. they were both 16 at the time, and as far as we currently know, there is nothing to suggest that the photos were sent or received without consent. but this case has highlighted the bizarre way that laws meant to protect our children sometimes lead to getting them into trouble. under north carolina law, 16-year-olds are considered

adults when charged with a crime, but in north carolina you are still considered a child until you turn 18 when it comes to sending and receiving sexually explicit messages. so legally too young to be allowed to send me a naked picture of yourself, but old enough to be charged as an adult for doing so. after the student's school found out about the charges, the boy was suspended from his high school football team and he's charged with two counts of second-degree sexual exploitation of a minor and three counts of third-degree sexual exploitation of a minor, and he could face up to 10 years in jail. the possibility of having to register as a sex offender for the rest of his life. his girlfriend faced similar charges but took a plea deal to avoid felony charges and received probation. joining me now are sema ire, host of the docket. she was a prosecution attorney here in the city.

and columnist of "the daily bea beast." in his last life he was also a practicing attorney. and host of nyc's "note to se " self." nice to have you all here. just straight up about the laws. >> basically, reproducing any picture of a minor is against the law. >> even if the minor is you. >> that's correct. and melissa, let me tell you this, because you found this so surprising, that as a defense attorney usually i get a pact of information, police reports, discovery, right? the prosecution can't give me evidence, the pictures. instead i am subjected to sitting in a room with a police officer looking at child porn on a laptop. that's the law. >> i got to say -- look. i get why we want to be aggressive legally on the question of the exploitation, sexual exploitation of minors.

no one thinks that's a bad idea. except that this is clearly not protecting children, this is criminal -- consent matters, right? >> this is crazy. in the state of north carolina, a 16-year-old can have sex with each other legally, but if they take a picture of their body afterwards and send it to each other, it's a felony. now you're having a child, a 16-year-old with a felony, and he might get a felony conviction at 17 years old. this would ruin his life. >> he also has that picture lingering in the cloud available for other people to see. >> granted, i hear you. but i guess there is -- there's got to come a moment when our law meets with our technology in some kind of way that makes sense, right? so in a new world where people are selfing -- it just means something different to say, this is how i want to present myself to the world. maybe i'm even using bad judgment to do so, but bad

judgment in kids -- >> that comes with the territory. bad judgment is not illegal. if you look at what's happening with kids, 90% of them text each other all day long. the average teenager, 118 texts a day. is anyone st >> is anyone studying? is anyone going to class? >> one out of five of them have sent and received sexts. how about some sex ed? >> you want to talk about safe sex. safe sex from a viewpoint of stis or pregnancy. if you're sending a picture, it's pretty unlikely you'll get pregnant from that or get a sexually transmitted disease from it, but it might not be acceptable, right? >> if you're in a relationship with someone and you share this picture and they break up and there's a revenge type of thing where you post it, that's the

only thing. but that happens to people of all age. to make this a crime, a felony, is pretty extreme. >> but you could say sexting is the greatwateway drug. >> oh, come on. >> you're having sex. >> back up, though, because you're talking about sexually transmitted diseases. >> right. our human hormones are the gateway drug to sex. that often happens over time, but the idea of criminalizing these acts -- i guess i'm wondering where the prosecutorial decision making and judgment comes in here instead of, oh, it's against the law, therefore i have to put a kid in jail. >> the girl goes through probation and has the ability for the fellow to be expunged, and i don't think she would have a record after that. i don't think this boy should be

a registered sex offender. i don't think half my clients should be registered sex offenders, so certainly that's going beyond the scope. >> what prosecution would take this case against them? >> they're trying to use her as an example. >> but it's not the policy, it's the statute. they have to follow the statute. stick with us. we're going to talk about keeping the sexting secret and how technology can help. like... welcome to . it's fu, it's full of cool stuff, like...

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not that any of us in nerd land have sent a selfie kept private. but let's say hypothetically we had. we would be comforted to know that apple actually keeps our messages encrypted. messages using the imessage system cannot be read without the phone being unlocked either by using a security code or fingerprint. not even apple can see those messages. government agencies and law enforcement want to scale back

encryption and turn over user messages, but apple has pushed back giving users increasingly secure encryption software. we just made sexting safer. there's one concern here around the, like, cracking down on child pornography. shouldn't we make the technology better? >> let's say hypothetically you get this picture from your husband. you save it, chances are if you save it into the cloud, then the authorities can ask for it. >> go to settings and turn that off. >> right. >> because you can with apple. you can say, don't send all my stuff to the clouds. >> i think that's where jennifer lawrence got into problems. >> is it up there forever? >> you can go in there and delete it. who remembers? nobody remembers what they've done to their devices and they go about their business. who knows what's up there. >> part of the reason i wanted to push on the reputational

technology piece a little bit, i've been watching this play out a little bit in pop culture. vanessa williams coming back, not that she was gone, but coming back to miss america, in what had been the revelation of the naked photographs. she's gone on to have 20 years of an extraordinary career thereafter. are we having a little bit of a moral panic around, like, our concern that one naked picture is going to be the end of your career and your life and capacity to be a lawyer? >> i think we've always had that panic, that it's going to come up, and it's going to haunt you and you're going to be confronted with it. now i think the law has caught up in that accepts in terms of privacy. in june of 2014, now fbi, prosecutors, if you want to get into the phone, you're going to need a search warrant unless it's an emergency. now we're more protect. apple changes privacy policies as well. everything is in the cloud unless you adjust your settings. >> i don't think i'd send a

selfie of a naked selfie of myself to anybody. >> i've never sent one. i understand people -- it's a real fear. not just for celebrities, for the average person. >> it showed up in politics, right? we've seen donald trump attacking hillary clinton because her adviser's husband, anthony weiner, sent these unsolicited sexts. that's a trail of responsibility. >> it's great what you said before about bad judgment. bad judgment is not criminal. that's what i've been saying about hillary clinton all along. perhaps she exercised bad judgment in dispensing of certain e-mails, but it's not criminal. and it shouldn't be. >> you're not suggesting that the server had sexts on it.

>> oh, i hope they do. >> that would be a whole different story. >> let's hold presidential nominee more accountable than we do a 16-year-old boy, right? at a certain point, it's your responsibility to know where your technology is going. it's your responsibility to exercise judgment. and in terms of apple, i mean, i think this is an interesting war that's going on basically between the federal government, the fbi saying you've got to give us a back door. this is not cool. and apple saying, no, we've decided to brand ourselves as the tech company that cares about your privacy. >> i have a 13-year-old daughter. do i want -- the thing that we're most worried about is protecting her from traffickers, or is the main thing that i want her to protect her from her own bad judgment? i feel like i want both of those things to be true. because again, along with teenagers comes the reality sometimes they make bad choices.

>> but you as a parent could make her give the pass code so you could get the pictures off the phone. whereas apple can't. the government can't get that pass code. they cannot get into the phone. and apple cannot comply with the search warrant if that information is in the -- >> a lot of the mommies are more likely to have it on their phones than their kids. we keep putting this off on their kids. anthony weiner was nobody's teenager. >> that's true. i spoke to a social worker giving a sex ed class, and all the girls said, you know, we all have these on our phones, and they all look so different. why do they look so different? >> maybe we should have that conversation. >> a teachable moment. >> that is our show for today. thanks to you at home for watching. and from all of us here in nerd land to everyone celebrating the jewish new year tonight, very happy holiday to you. up next, "weekends with alex witt." alex will talk to erin

brockovich about the toxic wastewater spilled from a colorado mine this summer. hear why brockovich feels the epa is not telling the truth about what happened. it is very important. stay with us, next. everyone loves the picture i posted of you. at&t reminds you it can wait.

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california burning. new and fast-burning wildfires forcing thousands to leave their homes. the pictures are as dramatic as are the stories. donald trump is an entertainer. >> throwing down ahead of this week's gop debate, the candidates pull no punches. how ugly might it get? the huge gold mine spill in a colorado river. environmental activist erin brockovich said we're not getting the whole story from the government. i'll talk to her about the toxic situation. some of america's most lovable characters get a new show. we'll tell youit