♪ you are about to enter the criminal mindscape of ron luff. a man who tried to usher in the second coming of christ by systematically killing a family of five. >> within a few days both of us had prosecuted understood that someone could die. >> after joining a small group, luff become captivated. >> he came in and mentioned, well, he says i want it brought

out to the barn. >> he was willing to do anything to prove his devotion to the man who controlled his life. >> i was the one that led each member from the house to the barn and delivered into that pit. >> including murder. >> we had pulled out all the garbage in that room to get to the first pit. that night at 7:00 p.m. found the body of a the first adult male. >> anyone who would carry a little girl to her death that nobody a criminal. >> to be sucked in so far that they're willing to commit violent murders. >> forensic psychologist n.g. burrell sits face-to-face with this once mild-mannered family man to uncover how he turned killer. >> on a power trip. >> i really think it was just me trying to overcome the fact a

traumatic hell. if you were to look into the pit of hell, that's exactly what that looked like. forensic psychologist n.g. burrell has spent his two decade career on probing the minds of some of the nation's most violence criminals now he's been granted access to ron luff. in 1990, luff was convicted of kid. faing for his role in the cult murders that took the lives of five family members. he's serving five consecutive sentence tess ross correctional institute in ohio. >> what i'll be looking for

today in luff's interview is to try and get a sense of what this man's history is like, to see if there's anything unusual that would have contributed to his becoming a cult member. it is difficult to conduct an interview in a setting. usually being in a prison upsets the anxiety level. i guess the curiosity of doing this sort of thing, you can never predict how someone will behave. >> dr. burrell, thank you for participating in this interview. i want to start off with asking you very bake questions. what precisely are you convicted of? >> five counts of aggravated murder and four counts of kidnapping. >> the real question becomes, how did you get to that point? >> everyone has a time in their lives that they're vulnerable to a certain kind of setting. if that setting crosses a path of their life at that moment in

time it's a real train wreck. it's rare that it happens. >> did youen spend time going over the past asking how could i have been so cruel? >> i spent the last 20 years doing that. december 31st, 1989. curtland, ohio. the local police department receives an alarming tip from atf officials in kansas city, missouri. >> the dispatcher told me that they have a farmer who said there were five bodies buried in a barn. >> sergeant ron andels heads to the abandoned property to search for any signs of a possible grave. >> we talked inside and saw the floor saw nothing suspicious. i called at atf to talk to the farmer, draw a diagram and fax

it to us so we knew exactly where the bodies were located. >> the informant is a former member of a local religious group that used to reside on the farm. he draws a diagram to show where the bodies are located. >> once the dirt floor was exposed you could tell that the ground was spongy, like somebody had had been digging there. so we start digging that night. around 7:00 p.m., we found the first body of an adult male. >> five victims are eventually exhumed. within days, a man turns himself into authorities in kansas city, missouri. >> hes what the first man in custody because he turned himself in at the aft. he walked in and gave a confession. >> i would ask you to please state your name, spell it. >> my name is round luff. that's r-o-n a-l-d.

my last time is luff, l-u-f-f. >> let me ask you did you voluntary come into our office today? >> yes i doo. >> did you volunteer to give a statement? >> yes. >> how does a seemingly normal man turn into a mass murderer? >> and he came in and so then, he says, well, i want them brought out to the barn from oldest to youngest. >> what would drive him to aid in the killing of an entire family? >> and i was the one that brought them out. >> it's important to interview people like luff for many reasons. seemingly normal fellow comes from the midwest to garden country a young man who in his adulthood gets sucked into a

cult. then there's the whole idea how do you get drawn into a cult anyway? how does someone who seems relatively normal get sucked in so far that they're willing to commit violent murders? >> maybe we can even go backwards and find out a little bit about your early years when you're a kid. can you tell me about the family you were raised in. >> i was a fifth generation member. on a branch known as reorganized latter day saints, so i was really very active. >> inside the family, what were things like? what was the tone growing up in your house? >> the tone was pretty oriented around the church. it wasn't an appropriate lifestyle. i know for myself, i fell away from the faith a little bit later on in the high school years. >> let me stop you there, you say it wasn't a perfect house. what about living in the house

would not have been perfect? >> my dad was -- you know, we didn't really understand each other real well. one thing i saw in my dad he had a tremendous amount of love but he didn't always know how to express it real well. >> there is something in there, even his own temperament that left him feeling alone, disconnected and particularly in need of a bigger stroke here, like a different direction to make him feel part of something. >> like a lot of teenager, luff begins to rebel and distances hills from the church. >> i began to drink and act wild. >> it's not consistent with what they expected of you. >> as elementluff pulls farther he searches for new outlets to fill the void. at age 18 he joins the navy. >> navy would have been the next

big affiliation. >> sure, was a strong structured environment. so, yeah, i can i understand the time and place in that. >> after getting married and starting a family, lu if. f leaves the navy. a lack of structure leaves him floundering. he turns back to his religion for stability. >> he needed an awful lot psychologically. he talks about going to the navy and finding satisfaction with associating himself with a larger group, structure, he could follow directions and commands. on one side of the navy, still searching for something. in this case, what he was searching for was a certain kind of spiritual or religious certainty. >> luff's constant search for acceptance in a group setting starts him on a dangerous path that would change his life forever. coming up -- >> who art thou that judges --

>> there was no instinct or reflex or something that predated your involvement in this group? >> i wish there had been. to me, it was like in jericho. there was terrible carnage that day but it was something that was commanded. that's what had to be done. the sudden loss of pasture became a serious problem for a family business. faced with horses that needed feeding and a texas drought that sent hay prices soaring, the owners had to act fast. thankfully, mary miller banks with chase for business. and with greater financial clarity and a relationship built for the unexpected, she could control her cash flow, and keep the ranch running. chase for business. so you can own it. chase for business. i'm thethreed dad of messy kids. they get stains like you wouldn't believe. this tide ultra stain release and zap!cap helps me get out pretty much any stain. can i help? aww helps remove 99% of everyday stains tide, america's #1 detergent

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and marries 22-year-old suzie. a fellow mormon. luff leaves the navy two years to be closer to her. soon, a lack of structure leaves luff searching. he turns back to the church for guidance. >> so where does the story take its turn? so far -- >> well, the real thing that happened was in april of '84

there had been a world conference for the church. at this particular world conference, they introduced a new direction for the church. and now, for me i was getting out of military and i was starting a new life. but the church was a huge part of my life was in utter turmoil. >> looking for answers, luff takes a fateful trip with his family to an ohio town known as a kind of mecca for mormons. kirtland, ohio, a small farming town that hosts hundreds of mormon tourists annually, they come to visit the kirtland temple one of the first structures for mormons. >> it's primarily an historic land mark, it was built in the 1800s. >> in the spring of 1987,

27-year-old ron luff visits the temple on a pilgrimage with his wife and two children. there he meet eye a local tour guide. he meets jeffrey lundgren. >> there are people saying this guy, jeffrey lundgren really knows it and he's a special one. and he taught sunday school classes there. >> but a disagreement with the church elders over his teaching practices pushes 37-year-old lundgren out of the temple. he moves his small group of followers to a nearby farm. >> it was roughly in 1987 is when i started to see jeff lundgren and his people move into the farm on u.s. route 6. >> jeffrey lundgren has more than 20 disciples. they gather daily at lundgren's farmhouse, taking in every word. ron luff and his wife suzie are

captivated. it becomes clear to local authorities, this small religious group is quickly morphing into a cult. >> so, where does this come in? >> my faith was very much everything. i'm looking for a lot of answers to questions. i decide that i want to go to kirtland temple and just visit the place. i've never been there. pray, meditate, and see if i can -- god will touch me in any way or let me know anything that he wants in my life. what direction in my life. so i'd never heard of jeff lundgren before that day. and that is where we first met. we spent about six hours after that tour talking to him, his wife and some of the things going on in the church and so forth. and then we met some of the other people that were there. what there seemed to be is a collection of people who all seemed to have the answers to their questions. and that was very attractive to me because i was still not

finding those answers to my questions. everything i was reading was saying, okay, you have to go to ohio to get it. i became convinced that we would have to move up there if we were really going to get the answers we were looking for. >> abruptly, he decides to move his family from missouri to ohio. >> the step, it was like a seducti seduction, and people are awfully welcoming, they're awfully nonjudgmennonjudgmental looking for that attachment bigger than themselves finds the seduction very appealing. >> six weeks after moving to ohio, ron luff settles into his life with ease. the more time he espns with jeffrey lundgren, the more convinced this man will lead him into the path of salvation, a path ron luff is desperately

seeking. >> when you talk about any critical event that takes place, the pieces come together at the same time for something bad to occur. the idea that anyone in his shoes would have done the same thing, i don't know if that's true. i really don't know if that's true. >> how quickly was it that you sort of noted or gotten involved or decided this is what you wanted? >> you really have to understand mormonism and the book of mormons because prophesizes the choice. he will be the one that establishes the new jerusalem. >> luff quickly becomes convinced that lundgren may be the chief seer predicted in the

mormon scriptures. that this man about the one he's been seeking most of his life. >> this is when i began to realize there's something unique about this guy. >> how many months before you became convinced he was? >> oh, it was probably about six or eight weeks. >> in six or eight weeks, you're convinced that he's got the answers, and he was in fact a prophet is what you're saying? >> sure. by this time, i was convinced he was the prophet. >> as luff quickly emerges himself further into the group, he begins to lose touch with the outside world. his days are dedicated to lundgren's teachings. his thoughts are fueled by lundgren's words. >> it's not over night, but over time, i'm told it was a group thing where the thoughts and behavior continuously on a daily basis were reinforced by the fellow congregants or members. and it becomes very difficult to have independent thinking or

judgment of thinking. coming up -- >> there's threats of eternal damation going here. it's not just your own. it's your wife, your children, but the entire world. because if this thing doesn't happen, people will die. that detergent was like half the price! and we'll have to use like double! maybe more! i'm going back to the store? yes you are. dish issues? get cascade complete. one pac cleans tough food better than 6 pacs of the bargain brand combined. cascade. now that's clean. feel like this. look like this. feel like this.

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as ron luff and his wife become more immeshed in the cult, they begin to lose sight of reality. luff is captivated by the teachings of the group's leader, jeffrey lundgren. and like all the group's members is a devoted follower. >> you haven't considered yourself a cult. >> in fact, i don't think the idea came into mind, the whole notion of a cult which i knew nothing about anyway. >> how many could would be in the group at the time. when did the requests of dictates become even more unorthodox, more, i guess, opposed to the traditional church? >> oh, it's hard to break down

steps because there's so many of them. and they're gradual. ♪ >> lundgren's behavior becomes bizarre and even cruel. he tests his followers devotions by holding bible class from morning to 2:00 a.m. or later. and he challenges their willpower by insisting that they fast while he eats a lavish lobster dinner in front of them. luff follows lundgren's demands without hesitation. >> did any part of you ever say, gee, this is a little weird, i don't know? this fellow's maybe just -- i don't know. >> by the time you realize anything, you don't realize it. >> cults are not democracies, cults have a leader who calls the shot and there can be no

room for cloistering. >> isolated on a remote farm, lundgren is able to control all of his followers. he dictates their every move. and for some, even their thoughts. >> did you have secret discussions? >> no, in fact, that kind of communication control say huge part of the setting. without the setting, you don't have the effects that this kind of thing can bring about. >> how is that important? how do you impose the control? >> well, there's the subtleness of eventually keeping certain conversations restricted. in other words, there's certain things that you don't need to talk about. and there's certain things that you shouldn't talk about. and there's a lot of reprisal for anytime someone would do something. a form of nonphysical punishment. >> lundgren convinces luff and the other followers that their sins will delay the second

coming of christ. >> there's threats of eternal damnation going here. it's not just your own. it's your wife, your children, but also the whole world because if this thing doesn't happen, people will die. >> lundgren manipulates the group to convince them that there are consequences mandated by god if they do not follow his every word. >> they had a rabbit and a couple pets and things like this where they would end up dead. of course, it's pretty obvious, i think now that lundgren was killing these creatures. so every time that happened, he said that's because there's sin in the midst. that meant that there would be a cost. at this point, it was a cost to some animal. but it also meant that it would postpone this who we were supposed to be seeking which meant more people would die.

>> were you afraid living in this? was it a joyful experience? >> no, you become desperate to bring these things about because this is what has to be. it's the only access to life. >> he controlled his followers lundgren also uses guilt as a manipulation tactic. luff is told the sins of the world rest on his shoulders. it is a burden that is almost too much for luff to bear. >> the whole ethiopian planner is personally attributed to me as being failure on my lives as these people die. i remember tears coming out of class, my god, all of these people are dead, it's my fault. so i felt these things, they were real to me then. >> a terrible burden to bear. this entire famine rests on your shoulders. >> and the fate of the world. it's a state of dread.

you become completely dependent on the one in charge. you have no ability, no capability. so you're completely relying on him and it's dreadful because there's nothing that you can do about it. and so you're desperate. and it's as desperate sass somebody that is floundering around in the water looking for a breath of air. >> as lundgren's control begins to take a dark turn, some group members fear what is to come. one man flees the group and warns authorities that this group is on a path towards carnage. >> courage left the group and finally called the fbi and said he was afraid to leave. he was afraid that jeff had enough information, was powerful enough that he would track him down and kill him for sure. >> as the fbi begins to monitor the group, lundgren devices his next test for his followers. he tells them that the second

coming of christ will only occur once the group is free of sin. and the wicked are delivered to god for judgment. it is a price that can only be fulfilled through bloodshed. coming up -- >> you knew that something bad would happen? >> i would say within a few days at least beforehand. those of us who had prepared the pit in the barn understood that someone could die. now that was a leap. i was calling in every favor i could, to track down enough lumber to get the job done. and i knew i could rely on american express to help me buy those building materials. there are always going to be unknowns. you just have to be ready for them. another step on the journey... will you be ready when growth presents itself? realize your buying power at open.com who's worried about getting ttaken for a ride...r don't worry.

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i'm richard lui with the hour's top stories. pope francis is set to land shortly in atlanta for the start of his visit to cuba. and they ever arriving in washington, d.c. on tuesday with then visits to new york city and philadelphia. and the man arrested in the phoenix freeway shooting told a judge today they have, quote, the wrong guy. the judge set bail at $1 million for leslie allen mare red, accused of shooting four cars on

intestate 10 in phoenix. now back to our msnbc special. ron luff has been a devoted member of a religious cult for two years. one day leader jeffrey lundgren approaches luff with a plan that epitomizes all the control he holds over luff and the evil by which he's capable. it resolves around a family named avery who are fellow group members. >> the avery family had been part of the group early on. they had moved up there before we moved up. he had basically emptied them of everything they had. when they moved up, they had money and it was his. they had a second car, he got one car and left them the one that didn't run. when it got to the point where he had basically used them in every way, then he had no use

for them. they were seen as unwelcome. and, so, he looked at me. i mean, we were working out together, just the two of us, out in the barn. and he says, i just want you to know one thing, you're not bringing friends this time. lundgren approaches luff and tells him to dig a large pit in the barn. it is another command that luff follows without question. >> he knew that something bad would happen? >> i would say within a few days, at least, beforehand, those of us who had prepared the pit in the barn understood that someone could die. a tip from a former member of lundgren's cult leads authorities to the discovery of

a body. the body is found underneath an abandoned barn on a farm where lundgren's cult used to reside. experts are quickly brought in from departments across the county to aid in the excavation and search for clues. >> i sat down with him before we started this, and said, what do we know? and the main part they know is that they had been bound with duct tape. >> the process takes an emotional and physical toll on everyone involved. >> they had deteriorated badly enough that we just used white sheets and the ambulances carefully brought them up so they remained intact as much as possible for the coroner to identify them. i went home and burned the clothes i had on because it

stunk so bad. and then i cleaned out my nose with alcohol because the odor really is there. it's the taste of the death. it's really there. it's not your imagination. >> it takes crews two days to excavate two adults and three children. all five victims were found bound with duct tape and shot several times. during the excavation, police estimate the youngest victim to be 6 years old. >> there were three little kids, it's so tragic and so bad tos possess the human part of that, anybody who would carry a little girl to her death has to be a criminal mind. >> police quickly identify the victims as the avery family. they're also members of lundgren's group. >> i don't see how it could be much worse than you're talking about the murder of five family

members, including three children. i don't see how it can be much more precocious, much worse and violent. >> as they begin the search for suspect, they receive a surprising phone call. ronald luff has turned himself into authorities. he incomes them that lundgren's cult is responsible for the killings. >> a suspect in another murder case tonight, jeffrey lundgren, the leader of a fanatic religious group, tonight he and four of his followers are wanted by police. >> luff as professes to be a leading figure in the murder of the avery family. >> i want to reiterate, you have the right to stop this questioning at anytime. do you understand that? >> yes, i do. >> he makes his confession after hearing about the discovery of the averies bodies. >> the statement that you gave us previously, regarding your association with mr. jeff

lundgren and others was that statement made voluntarily without any threat of intimidation? >> completely voluntary. >> he provides authorities with details of the murders, as well as the motive behind their deaths? homicides was that they had to, what they call, clinch the fire of god, making the finest the fire. basically that's the interpretation of why they had to be killed. >> lundgren convinced his followers that the second coming of christ could only be possible through human sacrifice. >> clearly, you mentioned about feeding the fire. >> to put it in a simple explanation was that god's wrath must go out when there's wickedness. and there's always wickedness. and as wrath goes out, what produces the fire is that you send the wicked before him.

as before his altar. so it must be where the judgments are. >> how would he get rid of the wicked? >> he would kill them. coming up -- >> i placed them down in and then i walked away. >> you literally walked away? you didn't watch? >> no. >> did you hear them scream? >> no, trina said ouch. >> you heard that? >> yeah. look like this. feel like this. look like this. feel like this. with dreamwalk insoles, turn shoes that can be a pain

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became a serious problem for a family business. faced with horses that needed feeding and a texas drought that sent hay prices soaring, the owners had to act fast. thankfully, mary miller banks with chase for business. and with greater financial clarity and a relationship built for the unexpected, she could control her cash flow, and keep the ranch running. chase for business. so you can own it. april 17th, 1989. the avery family, along with several other cult members have dinner on the farm. it is not a typical night. ron luff knows that lundgren is preparing a test for the evening.

he knows it will involve the avery family. and that their lives hang in the balance. >> in fact, what i said before about no communication even within the group, you're cut off ties from the outside world, which you don't even talk about most things within the group. now, this form of isolation is -- it's just hard to imagine. but there's certain things you don't talk about. there's certain things you don't think. it was called supposing of yourself. for example, the night that the ave averies, when i brought them in the barn one at a time, now i didn't know what would happen with them? >> you didn't know? >> i had ever reason to believe. but what i'm saying is, at anytime he could have offered grace. but it wasn't for me to think that he wouldn't. do you understand? >> right, i understand in essence once the die was cast --

>> these people, you're let go of these people? >> that's right. >> there was no instinct or reflex that predated your involvement in this group? >> i wish there had been. for me it was like going to jericho. there was terrible carnage that day but it was something that was commanded, that that had to be done. and conscience itself becomes malleable at this point. >> when i compare luff's interviews with serial killers, serial rapists, luff is very serious. he takes this role in this crime seriously, in the sense he's not proud of what he did. >> after dinner, lundgren brings ron luff and five other men into a bedroom. there, he lays down their final test. he instructs luff to escort the

averys into the barn one by one. there they will be duct taped and put in the pit. it is the last time the averys would be seen alive. >> was it a power trip or something, like, i'm showing you bad people? >> i really think it was me trying to overcome the fact it was a traumatic hell. i looked in that room, a single incandescent bulb was in that room, it was hideous. >> the barn or the room? >> the barn where they were actually shot. if you were to look into the pit of hell, that's exactly what that looked like to me. >> did you look in? >> i don't have any memory of actually focusing on anything because i guess i just didn't want to. >> so, walking, escorting these people into the barn, you didn't wait to see them tumble into the hole? >> i was, i guess, the judas.

i was the one that led each member from the house to the barn. and then from there, they had to symbolically have tape around their hands and feet. >> after delivering dennis and cheryl avery to their deaths, ron luff retrieves their three young daughters, one by one. trina, rebecca and karen are inside watching tv. to coax them to the barn, he tells them they're going to see the horses. he gives the youngest daughter karen a piggyback ride. >> the avery children didn't understand this. this was just a game to them. it wasn't intended to be fearful. but cheryl seemed to fear it. but dennis definitely did. he felt -- he was, i guess, supposed to know.

that this was going to be bad. whatever it was going to be. and but, each person had to be prepared the same way and delivered into that pit. i placed them down in and then i walked away. >> you literally walked away? you didn't watch them get shot? did you hear them scream? >> no, trina said ouch. >> i don't imagine that there was an awful lot of ambivalence that he focused on, sizing the situation, probably that he was proud and able to participate in this thing as he was asked to do. >> after lundgren delivers the final shot, he leaves ron luff and the other men to cover up

the crime. >> did you assist then in burying the bodies. so you confirmed to the actual courts that you saw them? >> yeah. while we were covering the bodies, i don't recall really looking in. i don't think i really wanted to. i think that was sort of, you know, just didn't want to, and i didn't. and i have vague images of the pit, but i didn't really focus on that. >> immediately after the murders, the cult leaves the farm and roams the country for the next few months. slowly, the members disband. and luff returns to missouri. his role in the murders starts to weigh on him. >> mine monnine months, i got o. >> you got out? >> by this time, we moved back to missouri, that's where he lost control of the group.

it was unavoidable not to have contact with outside again. >> did you review your complicity in the crime at that point? were you able to say to yourself -- >> i began to doubt whether or not i could continue any farther because god had gotten too ugly. at this point, too ugly to follow anymore. that grew into serious doubts about what was right. and then eventually to a conviction that was wrong. >> luff's growing realization that he participated in a terrible crime prompts him to turn himself into authorities. it say step that initiates the end of jeffrey lundgren's cult. coming up -- >> how in the world. >> if you can recover. >> is that how you view this as a recovery? >> a recovery, you could say, a nightmare. all of those dreams of what was going to be turned sour.

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one month after the discovery of five bodies beneath a farm in kurtland, ohio, 12 of jeffrey lundgren's followers are under arrest in connection with the murders. including ron luff and his wife. >> the 39-year-old leader of a religious cult is under arrest in california. he's likely to be returned to ohio where he's charged with killing a family of five. >> an ohio jury has charged lundgren and others with killing a man, his wife and their three children. >> the highly public trial consumes the area as several

members recount each step of the murders. some members accept plea bargains to escape harsher sentences. >> by my hand they were to be killed. >> more than a year after the discovery of the bodies a dozen cult members plead guilty or are found guilty of sentences ranging from conspiracy to commit murder to aggravated murder. jeffrey lundgren is handed the death penalty. he is executed by lethal injection on october 24th, 2006. suzie luff is given sentence for 7 to 15 years. she's released on parole in january 2011. ron luff's role in the murders and his second in command position within the group pushed the prosecution to seek the death penalty. his attorney fights it.

>> my job as i viewed it was to keep him out of the electric chair. i wasn't going to walk him out of there. i just wanted to keep him out of the electric chair. >> luff receives 20 years to life for the murders of dennis and cheryl avery and 30 years to life for their three daughters. the judge orders luff to serve his sentences consecutively. ron luff will spend the rest of his life in prison. >> ron luff deserved the death penalty. there's no question he should never be able to step outside the prison again. those murders wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for ron luff and the other people that were involved. again, he may not have pulled the trigger, but he led them, each of them, one by one to their grave. >> after his conviction luff loses touch with his family. he hasn't spoken with his wife since then and has had virtually no contact with his two

children. for 18 years he has lived a life isolated from the world he used to know except for his own memories. >> i accept where i'm at. and i understand these circumstances. my only -- it's just like with this. my only point is to maybe help it not happen again. but i understand and accept where my -- where i'm at. i understand that. i have a hard time admitting because i never desired the averys deaths, i never planned their death and i never physically caused their death, but i'm responsible because i participated in their death. >> right. >> and so, yeah. i mean part of me says yes and part of me says, well, yes but. >> so you don't feel as guilty as lundgren. where you believe lundgren to be? the fella that pulled the trigger. >> i think he had a desire to take human life. and he found a way to act it

out. >> you sit here today and i think anyone listening to you speak would say, you know, i'm sure you're not surprised to hear this you seem bright, you seem rational. how in the world -- >> well, you can recover. >> is that how you view this? as a recovery from what? >> a recovery from -- well, i mean you could say a nightmare. but these settings can happen. people's lives can get grossly manipulated. i think the best defense we can have is to realize, realization that we have those vulnerabilities. we may not know what they are. we should at least recognize that we do have those and always question and never allow ourselves into a setting where those questions are not allowed. always keep the windows open for a little air cross flow, you know? always make sure that the exchange of ideas can be voiced. by not being able to voice it eventually you forget that it's your opinion. >> all right. i think that's what we wanted.

all right. all right. thanks. you know, he conducted himself in a rather quiet, respectful manner. he was willing to answer almost anything. until you're sitting in a room across from someone you really don't know how they're going to express themselves. in talking to luff about his early years, and i don't want to make it too simplistic, but this guy has always been looking for a father. in that sense we have a little bit of a clue psychologically as to how he would have been drawn into this kind of a cult. >> i was concerned with who these witnesses would be. >> the ability to think that through it, make good decisions, rational decisions, seems to have evaporated. that it was almost operating almost like a robot, if you

will, like a zombie. i think he recognizes that he really got drawn in. he was sucked in hook, line and si sinker. and as a consequence committed cold-blooded murder. i think that's something he finds difficult to live with. and you see, you know, in talking about the kids for example that it still weighs heavily on him. it seems that there is some memory of what occurred there. he was not unconscious. but i would probably make the psychological argument that he was not fully conscious either. there was a disassociation. and i think it's not shocking at the end of the day that it's even possible some 20 years later he still may be startled by a memory that gets shook loose. in fact, he whispered sort of when the cameras weren't rolling i'm not going to sleep for a couple of weeks now. and i believe that that may be the case.

i think it stirs up things that this guy just can't control very well. he was known as the most dangerous man alive. >> if i started murdering people, there'd be none of you left. >> in 1987 the "today" show went to san quentin prison and interviewed the infamous charles manson. he was unshackled and unapologetic. >> you know, if i wanted to kill somebody, i'd kick this book and beat you to death with it. and i wouldn't feel a thing. >> the interview sparked controversy within nbc. >> we here on the "today" show staff debated