i think it stirs up things that this guy just can't control very well. he was known as the most dangerous man alive. >> if i started murdering people, there'd be none of you left. >> in 1987 the "today" show went to san quentin prison and interviewed the infamous charles manson. he was unshackled and unapologetic. >> you know, if i wanted to kill somebody, i'd kick this book and beat you to death with it. and i wouldn't feel a thing. >> the interview sparked controversy within nbc. >> we here on the "today" show staff debated among ourselves

whether to air his answers. half of our staff said absolutely not. >> in the end just seven minutes aired on the "today" show. now 20 years later former fbi profiler candice delong examines the entire interview. >> he certainly has his issues, mentally. but he is not seriously, seriously mentally ill. >> making sense of the mind of manson. >> friday night in los angeles a movie actress and four of her friends were murdered. the circumstances -- the news out of los angeles august 10th, 1969, was shocking. five people had been brutally murdered. among the dead roman polanski's wife sharon tate. she was eight months pregnant.

>> she'd been stabbed, repeated stab wounds. one of the victims had a hood placed over his head. and the word pig was written in blood on the door. >> but the carnage wasn't over. the following night police found two more victims. >> a supermarket owner and his wife have both been stabbed to death. repeated stab wounds. on his body the word war had been carved in the chest. then with blood the killer had scrawled on the refrigerator door the words, death to pigs. hoods have been placed over the heads of both victims. >> despite the obvious similarities between the two murder scenes, los angeles police failed to make any connection until jailed manson follower susan atkins began talking. her story was chilling. >> along a girl involved in the peculiar gang which may have killed sharon tate and her friends described the killings today. the lawyer said five people

dressed in black entered ms. tate's home after cutting the power and telephone lines and went methodically about the business of killing five people. the next night he said they killed a husband and wife, took a shower in their home, calmly ate some food and left. caruso wepts susan atkins, a member of the gang or commune. she said she and the others were completely under what they call the insane influence of charles manson. >> charles watkins who did most of the killing, patricia, leslie, susan atkins all convicted and condemned to die in the gas chamber. their sentences however were later commuted to life when california temporarily dropped the death penalty in 1972. not long after the fbi began research --

got breaking news tonight. pope francis has just arrived in havana. the first trip by a pope to cuba in 17 years. thethree-day visit to the communist island nation coming before this pontiff makes his first-ever visit to the united states. we're watching his plane just landing moments ago here. the door opening on this al italia plane that just landed. nbc's correspondent is covering this for us. claudio, a lot of interesting facts behind this today. this only the first visit in the last 17 years by a pope. and raul castro, the president there -- and there we have him. he's coming out of the plane. claudio, he's never been to cuba. >> he's never been to cuba. he's actually been where he is

now. at the airport. he just stay there for an hour or two as a layover on the way to another country. so he never really set foot outside of the airport. he hasn't been outside the airport of cuba. this is particularly significant because as you said he's the third pope to visit this island in less than 20 years. not many countries of 11 million people can claim that, but of course cuba is very special and has a very special relationship with the vatican. this pope is very special to the cuban people and also the cuban state. well first of all of course he is the first pope from latin america. he speaks spanish as his first language. and he played a key role in the restarting of normalizing relations between the u.s. and cuba. of course that makes it very, very important. people are looking forward to greet him and to thank him for that as well. well, of course the embargo has not been lifted altogether. that's the job of congress. but people around here hope that his visit will put even more pressure to congress where he

will be speaking any way next week as the first pope to do so to actually lift that embargo, richard. >> what a year it has been for cuba, not only the deals that have been struck and are now being worked out as you alluded to with the united states. now you have the pope flying from rome coming to visit. first stop in a ten-day tour. the united states included in here. the 78-year-old argentine. what's interesting as you look at president raul castro there in the glasses and blue tie, he is not catholic. but he has said if this pontiff continues to do what he has done with regard to speaking out against the excesses of capitalism, as the pope has done in the past, raul castro saying i might rejoin the church.

>> well, yes. very important and significant words. he even said he's going to attend every single mass that the pope is going to hold here in cuba. that's of course also very important. now, the first mass the pope is going to hold is tomorrow here in cuba in revolution square. there's up to 1 million people expected to attend in a square that can only contain 700,000. and he moves onto a town on the east holgan where he'll hold another mass. he's got 300,000 people expected to attend there. so he's going to spend almost as much time here in cuba as until the united states. it's almost kind of showing that there is a balance there, richard. >> you know, the pope just spending a couple of moments to hug some children as he has not really even left the plane and it's area and the steps itself. and being so famous for his add ration for children, hugging children with lepracy, all

around the world, such a significant message. and the pope taking on an arc that has been very different than previous ones. >> well, yes. richard, also what he talks about touches very much the heart of the cuban people. he talks about of course inequality about for the care of the environment, for social justice. these are of course themes that are very popular here. so he speaks the cubans language in more ways than one. but what you're seeing there of course is an official ceremony. but what's more interesting is what's going to happen today after that ceremony. now officials just arriving to the apostolic -- basically the vatican ambassador's house where he's going to spend to sleep throughout his stay in cuba. but there are hints from the

vatican that he may meet with fidel castro himself, richard. >> claudio, thank you so much. stay with us on msnbc as we continue to follow the trip of the pope. his next stop, the united states. and clearer skin. this is my body of proof that i can fight psoriatic arthritis from the inside out ...with humira. humira works by targeting and helping to block a specific source of inflammation that contributes to both joint and skin symptoms. it's proven to help relieve pain, stop further joint damage and clear skin in many adults. doctors have been prescribing humira for nearly 10 years. humira can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis serious,sometimes fatal infections and cancers, including lymphoma, have happened, as have blood, liver and nervous system problems, serious allergic reactions, and new or worsening heart failure. before treatment, get tested for tb. tell your doctor if you've been to areas where certain fungal infections are common, and if you've had tb, hepatitis b, are prone to infections, or have flu-like symptoms or sores.

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i see myself as maybe an entrepreneur. internet essentials from comcast. helping to bridge the digital divide. in 1967 in san francisco was the epicenter of a wide open anything goes atmosphere of the late '60s. it was here that small time crook charles manson landed after seven years in prison for running prostitutes and writing bad checks. manson claimed to be like everybody flocking there. he told most people he was searching for peace and love, just like them. but his dark side soon took over. >> manson was in his early 30s at the time that he was in the

had ashbury developing what became known as his family. so there were all these young people there looking for something. many of them using drugs. and he gave them what they were looking for. he said free food, free lodging, free sex, so free love as it was called then. all just flowed. because he played a guitar. he sounded like he knew what he was talking about to an 18, 17-year-old runaway who might have, wow, this guy's really something. and the family grew. >> as his family grew, manson a racist at his core became increasingly pair noparanoid abt a war between blacks and whites. then in december 1968 beatles released the song "helter-skelter." manson believed the lyrics predicted a race war. he began calling the war helter-skelter. >> one of the things that

apparently he was trying to do was hide out in the desert with his clan. and when the race war was over, everything would be fine for him and his family to come back in essentially and take over. a rather elaborate what i would call delusion based in personal hatred. >> and then he would spark it with these murders. >> but he would spark it. and that these murders the word helter-skelter was actually written at one of the homes. >> in the book "manson in his own words," manson admitted to planning the tate and la bianca murders. but in this 1997 interview he steadfastly refused to admit guilt or show any remorse for his actions. >> you won't face the fact that there's a holy war moving upon the planet earth. you couldn't see the blood splattered all over the walls. now you say you want to blame one guy for it. i seen it. i witnessed it go by. i seen the children what they were trying to do.

and i was sympathetic with them. but you might say i'm a devil in this respect that i never broke will or entered into anyone's circle with breaking will in any respect whatsoever. i just watched the ble-- go downstream. >> that reminds me of the night they entered the labianca home. and he tied up those two people. and then went outside. but he didn't have anything to do with a knife plunging into a chest. therefore he's okay. >> from your words as mr. emmons quotes them in this book, it was clear you were guilty of murder. yet he says in all of his conversations with you he never heard you express remorse. have you never felt it? >> remorse for what? you people have done everything in the world to me. doesn't that give me equal right? >> well, there's your confession

right there. remorse for what? look what you've done to me. doesn't that give me the right? i take that as a confession. >> i can do anything i want to you people at any time i want to because that's what you've done to me. if you spit in my face and smack me in the mouth and throw me in solitary confinement for nothing, what do you think's going to happen when i get out of here? what do you think's going to happen to you? the things that you create in here. >> that was deliberate. what do you think's going to happen when i get out of here? and then he turns and looks right in the camera and opens up those eyes of his. it's a threat. it's i'm really dangerous and you better learn it now. >> and what keep me in here where i am where i'm safe? >> actually, the day before if not the morning of charles manson's release from prison -- there were many releases from prison. but the last one before he went in for these crimes, he begged

the parole board not to release him. he said he could not live on the outside. he had tried it. he had always failed. >> there's no need to feel guilty. i haven't done anything i'm ashamed of. maybe i haven't done enough. i might be ashamed of that for not doing enough, for not giving enough, for not being more perceptive, for not being aware enough, for not understand iing for being stupid. maybe i should have killed four or 500 people then i would have felt better. would have felt like i really offered society something. >> have you never felt remorse for the crimes you committed? >> what crimes? i told you i haven't committed any crimes. i don't break laws. i don't need to break a law. why should i break the law? i'm in god's will.

do you feel guilty? do you feel guilty for the thousands and millions of indians that you destroyed? do you feel guilty for the gas chambers where you've killed the jews? do you feel guilty for timeless endless -- how far can you go back and say guilty of what? guilty of what? there's no need to be guilty. then you're going to make me suffer say, okay, now i felt guilty. do you feel secure now that i feel guilty? was that going to make you feel better if i feel guilty? guilty, hmm, i wouldn't do anything that i feel guilty about. >> big rant about guilt, isn't it? >> big rant about guilt. i don't believe he feels guilty about the nine people that died. >> you believe that he does think it was a small rather insignificant thing compared to what the wider society has done to him? >> that is his belief. and that is -- he's not going to let go of that. when we come back. >> follow me. did you have any choice? you'll all follow me.

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the book says you get a lot of mail from people who want to follow you still. >> follow me? did you have any choice? you'll all follow me. you know, you got these people over here that want to live. you want to live? get in line. we'll live. you don't want to live? hurry up. you know, the gate's open. do your thing. man, here, give him some coke. all charlie's friends get free coke. give them cocaine. let them go, man. they want to commit suicide, get some suicide parlors out there and let them all self-destructive idiots go. all the people that want to live stop cutting down trees and stop polluting the ground. you dig? let's clean up the world we live in, you know? hey, hey, hey, how you doing? you still in there? is anybody there? >> susan atkins, patricia kren

winkle, leslie, tex watson, they followed charles manson and killed for him. all young, impressionable and looking for another way. at one point manson had more than 20 followers. many of whom believed he was christ returned. some stayed devoted to manson throughout the trial and later a prisoner. a testament to his influence perhaps, or their gullibility. >> i can see how charles manson did what he did and the power trip he was on. what's fascinating to me are people that will become the followers of someone like this and stay devoted to them beyond reason. and do things -- >> and for such a long time. >> for such a long time. yes. it certainly makes you wonder about the core personality of someone who so willingly essentially devotes their life to another person. yet we see this kind of thing over and over.

waco, texas, and there's others. >> you used the word flocks, those flocks stay with the leader in many other cases besides this one? >> frequently. >> what is it? is it the fact the initial commitment was so enormous that they somehow can't psychically can't afford to let it go? >> it might be that. it also could be that the devotion takes on an obsessional nature. if someone is prone to obsess, they're not going to be likely to let it go. they won't want to let it go. >> you say you could never have had in the world as many followers as you've had because of the sensationalism. >> i never had any followers. i had a lot of friends. they weren't followers. they were friends. they were people we sat down and we were honest with. we smoked grass and sat in a circle and looked at candles. you know, there was no followers. it was no leaders. >> he corrects her when she says followers. and he says, no, no, these were friends. many of them were so afraid of him they refused to testify or

cooperate with the police in any way. and a number of his friends ended up dead under unusual circumstances. one with a bullet in his head, supposedly that he got from playing russian roulette with the group. so his friends were very frightened of him hurting them. >> it's just a bunch of intelligent people trying to put some order into their existence. they're trying to get out from underneath what their parents left them. they're trying to get unlocked from the second world war. they're trying to get out frft burning monk that's in the street burning himself to death because something's not right, something's off balance. did you ever take it back upon yourself to say that you're responsible for helter-skelter? did jerry rubin and amy hoffman and dr. timothy leery take responsibility for the children they said that i influenced? you know, you want to drop the blame on charlie and say it's all charlie's fault. >> what did you do? >> i do the best thing i know

how. nothing. i [ bleep ] -- and i smoke a little grass now and then because it helps me and relax a little bit. i don't see anything wrong with drugs. drugs are all right if you don't misuse them. if you use them and are misinformed about them you make a bad thing of them. that's what the public has done. >> charles manson, drug counselor. he's going on and on about not misusing drugs. he used drugs, serious drugs, mind altering drugs, lsd, extensively with his followers. some of them have reported after the group would have dinner they would drop acid. and he would get on this pedestal kind of thing and do his preaching to them. he definitely knew the effects drugs could have and he used it to his advantage. >> you know, if i wanted to kill somebody, i'd take this book and beat you to death with it and i wouldn't feel a thing. it'd be just like walking to the drugstore. >> i believe that.

>> but yet you want to come and say, do you feel blame? are you mad? do you feel like -- [ inaudible ] won't you blame little babies? >> mr. emmons -- >> i got to take a [ bleep ]. would you excuse me? you don't mind if i'm directly to the point, do you? >> not at all. >> it don't take me to tell you that you're about ten pounds overweight, does it? >> thanks. >> but i can be honest with you, can't i? >> that is the worst thing you can say to a woman who makes her career in television? >> i think he managed it. >> he did it with a smile on his face. >> so he's not terribly happy with the way this thing has gone. >> i think that may well be in his mind he thought he was hurting her. probably i believe it because he's angry. >> when we come back. >> first of all, my mother was a

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to do homework when you're at home. internet essentials from comcast. helping to bridge the digital divide. i'm richard lui with your hour's top stories. a live look in havana, cuba, where pope francis arrived minutes ago kicking off his ten-day visit to north america. the pontiff met with pomp and circumstance. you see cuba president raul castro meeting with him. this is the first time a pope has stepped foot on the island nation in 17 years. francis will make his way to the united states on tuesday with scheduled stops in washington, d.c., philadelphia and new york city. now back to our msnbc special. how are you doing? >> good. how are you this morning? >> charles manson was responsible for the murders of nine innocent people. he became a terrifying cultural icon. >> how do you do?

>> we've invited former fbi profiler candice delong to watchmanson's 1997 "today" show interview and shed some light on one of america's most notorious killers. what was the point? >> i think where the violence comes in is the psychopathic or anti-social nature of charles manson. this is a man who had, to say the least, a troubled, undisciplined, abusive childhood. and neglected. and did not have good parental supervision. it just was chaotic. a chaotic life. >> charles manson was born no-name maddox in cincinnati ohio to 16-year-old kathleen d maddux. a hard partier first and mother

distant second. spent the bulk of his life in reform schools and prisons. he never knew his father. and as for his relationship with kathleen, it was to say the least complicated. though his mother denied it, manson often claimed she was a prostitute. >> if you got a game going, you know, and you need somebody for an excuse, first of all my mother was a prostitute. and she lived in the street. so you can't very well say that i pimp my mother when she gave me some milk. do you see what i'm saying? in other words i was raised in that alley. that alley is where i live. i live in the street. i live where it's rough and it's tough and it's hard. nobody gave me nothing. everything i got i had to bite for it and scratch for it. so it's the same principle when it comes down to surviving. if me and you are on the street,

you're the strong one. you're the one with the power. i take second seat with you. i say look here, girl, here's our problem, what are we going to do about it. now, if you got to give up real something on the side to do there no jealousy in me. what you do is your affair, but we're hungry here, moms. so broad went out and made a few dollars. she come back and said here's some money. i said money, that's what we need. so i took the money. now, the law and the government calls that pimping. >> when he was young, very young, it appears based on what i've read she repeatedly rejected him. and gave him to relatives to take care of. >> and like a lot of children who feel rejected by a parent early on they spend the rest of their lives trying to somehow win respect of the parent. >> right. win their love, win their favor. which is why i think he repeatedly went back to her. there was at least one time condition of his parole was that he not live with his mother, which is exactly what he did.

>> what happens to a person's attempts to become a mature human being when they feel they're lacking that kind of love and support from a parent? >> it can be very difficult for a child who suffered parental depravation of the magnitude that charles manson did to develop a whole, complete, mature, loving, warm personality that doesn't have a lot of flaws. >> do we know anything about what his mother's run-ins with the law may have been? or her behaviors? >> well, she had him when she was 16. and relatives describe -- some people describe her as being, oh, she was loose and liked to drink and live on the streets. >> early prison reports describe manson as having an intense need to call attention to himself. and a tendency to involve himself in fanatical interests. manson was an follower of

scientology for a time. his greatest passion was playing guitar. talent for singing and song writing as well as manson's entourage of available young women that grabbed the attention of some in los angeles as music elite including beach boys drummer dennis wilson. >> i lived in hollywood. and i had all that. the rolls-royce and the ferrari. and the pad in beverly hills. i had the surfboard and beach boys and the neil diamond and elvis presley's mr. bestiallies and all them guys. the din na martins and nancy sinatra, will you do it to me i hear you do it good honey and will you come to my house later. so i went through all that. and i seen that was a bigger prison than the one i just got out of and i really didn't care to go back to prison. see, prison doesn't begin and end at the gate. prison is in the mind. it's locked in one world that's dead and dying, or it's open to a world that's free and alive.

drugs, lsd i don't consider a drug, i don't consider paoti a drug, those are more or less religiously significant awareness mind expanding apparatuses that come from the intelligence of the universe. the reason that the girls like me was, hey now, hey now, i'm all around you, around you, hey now, hey now, up on your heart i can see through you and i play and i sing. and they say, hey, man, you got soul in that music. and i said, yeah, i play a little bit, you know. i like -- and they say, man, you're really somebody. i said, oh, i am? i just got out of jail. i don't know what somebody is. they like my music. they say, man, we want to get you over. i said get me over for what? they said we take you down here to beverly hills and we want to get you in because you're a star. i said i'm a what? they said you're a star. so they took me to the beach boys. and i went and i got on a

surfboard and i rode around and looked and said, gee, this is more trouble than what i just got out of. you got nine -- look at yourself. you got to wear that whether you like it or not you got to do things. you got to get up and go through all kinds of changes. whether you want to or not doesn't matter. your whole life is put in your paycheck. you couldn't pay me all the money in the world to do something i don't want to do. if i'm shoveling a barn and you want me to go -- i say no, no, i'm doing something right here. i'm helping this blind man. >> that story is fascinating. he says he was offered something in beverly hills. >> yes. he says he was offered something in beverly hills. he very much wanted to make his life as a musician. thought he was better than the beatles. apparently he was good at playing the guitar. he met a man who knew terry mel cher who was a music producer, a very successful music producer. and that man told manson, you know, a friend of mine is in the biz, maybe he can launch your

star. so he brought manson to meet terry melcher. and terry m,elcher listened to his music and passed on it. they all got in the same car and they gave melcher a ride home. manson was in the car. terry's home was 10050, later to be the scene of the tate murders. manson had been there before. and the time he was there was at a time when he had been rejected by someone in the business for something he wanted very, very much. >> he was going to be a star. >> yes. >> that's the man who told him he wasn't going to be a star. >> that's right. >> and the place they dropped that man is where the murder occurred? >> that's right. >> so it was a revenge killing. >> i believe it was. but they got the wrong people. >> so disguise within a disguise. a man who claims he is trying to launch some sort of revolution or start a war between whites

and blacks -- >> actually wanted to be a rock star. >> thinks he's killing the guy from preventing him from being a rock star. >> right. one of the most basic motivators of murder, revenge. when we come back. >> the only thing i did at that ranch is i said don't you lie. if i catch you lying i'll take you out behind the barn. and we just never lied to each other. we started telling each other the truth. >> the truth according to manson. i was out for a bike ride. i didn't think i'd

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the only thing i did at that ranch is i said don't you lie. if i catch you lying i'll take you out behind the barn. and we just never lied to each other. we started telling each other the truth. >> charles manson was convicted of orchestrating the murders of nine innocent people. manson admitted his crimes so this ex-con who put it in a book

called "manson in his own words." but for charles manson it seemed that facts are beside the point. truth is perhaps a relative term. >> did he lie about you in this book? >> lie. now there's discrepancies. in words. words have many meanings and they lean on each other. and each person has their own interpretation. i'm not talking about a philosophical hodgepodge [ bleep ] you learn in school. i'm talking the basic simple challenge 5-year-old truth yes, mom, i did or, no, mom, i didn't. >> is this book true? >> true? it's true from his point of view. it's the way he sees it. it's true for the people. it's true for his wife and children. it's true for the people that want it to be true. that's when you're dealing with the public. you deal public off the bottom. you deal them what they want to buy and what they want to hear.

there's a certain amount of honesty that exists in the world of crime. the outlaw must be honest with himself first of all to be able to face the things that run in the world of the outlaw. someone comes to me and says we're going to kill so and so. what do you think about that? i don't think about it. i'm not mad at him. i don't even know the dude. said we're going to get it. said, well, what do you want me to do? they say you want to come with us and help us? i said nope. i'm not breaking no laws this time. i'm not breaking no laws this time. can't that come into your brain? i did not break the law. jesus christ told you that 2,000 years ago. you don't understand me. that's your trouble. not my fault because you don't understand me. i don't understand you either. but i don't spend my whole life trying to put the blame over on you because my cigarette didn't light, or because something

didn't work right. what do you want to call me a murderer for? i never killed anyone. i don't need to kill anyone. i think it. i have it here. i don't need to live in this physical realm. i walk around in the physical realm and i put on the faces and i talk and i play and just a big act, man. in the spiritual world is where i live. i exist in places you never even dreamed of. >> you know, you almost hate to think of manson thinking that he contributed something personally to knowledge about human behavior, but he has, hasn't he? >> what we learned from manson is how somebody can be affected to a point of having psychiatric problems and still be charismatic and manipulative enough and have enough going on upstairs to plan and organize two massacres. very organized killings. >> i don't fit in society. and i am incompetent. i never been a success at

anything. i even got to the point where i didn't want to be a success at anything. what would being a success mean? money? i've had all the money in the world three times and had to give it back. that's the stupid little game, you know. i don't even think about it too much. it's hard for me to remember breakfast. in fact, if i didn't have two or three girls to help me, i would pretty much be lost and i wouldn't know what the hell i'm doing. >> i think that's the most sincere statement he's made in the entire interview. he's calm now. he's relaxed. his whole demeanor i think is changed from the rest of the interview. >> in my whole life i've burglarized a grocery store, stole some nickels and dimes, busted open a stamp machine, stolen a few automobiles and cashed a couple checks. i'm a petty car thief. i've been with prostitutes and bums all my life. the street is my world.

i don't pretend to go uptown and be anything fancy. i can, but i find more real in the world that i'm in than i do the tinsel. and the real world is the one i have to deal with every day. believe me, if i started murdering people, there'd be none of you left. >> the final threat. >> believe me if i started murdering people there'd be none of you left. >> there'd be none of you left. >> huh. >> just a few minutes ago he said i've never hurt anybody, i've never been successful, i can barely get through the day, i need help to get to the bathroom and now he comes across with the ultimate i'm going to kill everyone threat, or to let you think that. >> and my children are coming. i told you 20 years ago. i told the judge can't you see what you're doing here. he didn't care. nobody cared. only a handful of children cared. they cared enough to give their

all. >> he's off in every imaginable way here. >> yes. he has his drum that he beats. he's got his ongoing themes. but his repertoire actually isn't all that big. it's the environment, using it as a shield. the i'm not so bad, the i'm very, very bad. the i don't feel guilty because i've never done anything wrong. the i should have killed 400. >> at the base seems to be a very serious persecution complex. i wasn't chosen. i should have been chosen. or something to that effect. >> uh-huh. i didn't have a chance. i'm so talented. i'm so -- why can't other people see it? >> when we come back. >> bottom line is this. you guys are going to have to take responsibility for some of this yourself. take it off of me, put it where it belongs. >> could manson ever be released? hey babe, last one home cooks? ♪

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behind bars, charles manson is no longer considered a cult leader. much less the most dangerous man alive. he's just california state inmate b-33920. manson had been denied parole 12 times. his next shot won't come until around 2027, some time near his 92nd birthday. a lot of people worry every time he comes up for parole, what if he gets out? now, the likelihood seems slim, but what if he did get out? >> i agree with you the likelihood is very slim that he would get out. however, i don't see charles manson as the most dangerous man in the world as he's been called. but i don't see him as a harmless man by in means. there's no reason to believe that his belief, which i believe borders on if not outright is a delusion, is ever going to

change. that delusion that it's society stinks and needs to be punished will probably die an hour after he does. >> murderer. that's the damneddest thing in the world, murderer. when you go to the abortion clinics, is that murder? when you take a man's life a day at a time in a cage, do you feel guilty about that? all these kids you got locked up in these cages over here, do you feel guilty about it? do you feel guilty? do you feel like your money's got blood on it? when you take in your news media and you lead a whole wave of children into gang busters and lead them into ram bbos and combats and go off in some crazy let me take you down the strawberry fields, bottom line is this. you guys are going to have to take responsibility for some of this yourself. take it off of me, put it where it belongs.

make sense? you'd agree with anything any way. [ laughter ] so would i. so here you come. you want to pick on the murderer, the devil and the hiphi hippie cult leader. i'm in the world of a 5-year-old, i go in the vision room and all the kids run over, all the kids come to play and they get in my lap and little 5-year-old get in my lap and he'll say i'm charlie manson, give me your money. and he takes their money away from them and he laughs. he's only 5. but that would make me a bad guy because you would say i was influencing him. but how about him? is he influencing me? i see what it boils down to. i didn't grow up the way everybody else grew up and i didn't grow up. i'm still a little kid. i don't read too well and i don't write too well. i'm satisfied with being stupid.

but i still no matter how far i go i can't get away from politics. i can go to death valley and dig a hole and hide in it and i can't get away from politics. there's only one way i can be free. is that insane? i go back to solitary confinement and when you all leave, do you feel guilty that a man spent 18 years in solitary confinement in the united states of america? why don't you go ask the russians if, you know, if you can help them with your human rights. and here's another thing i'd like to flash on you guys. all you johnny carsons and all you comedians who get up and tell jokes about charlie manson,

what would you do if i was in the same room with you? would you tell jokes about me then? i'd like to go on the johnny carson show. you know what this beard covers up, johnny? you know what this beard covers? [ bleep ] now that's not moral. and when you go to church -- and when you go to church, you ask the nuns if they won't go out and deal a little bit of that to save starving children. you want this wedding ring i got with all these xs on it?

>> strange man. >> he employs a profound disconnect between being involved in the murders of at least nine people and deserving to be in prison. >> so watching a tape like this, watching this particular tape, what do you take away from it? >> i think what i'm seeing here it makes me sad. this is what happens when we don't take care of our children. warm, happy, nurturing families do not produce people that grow up and kill other people for fun or revenge. the probation and parole agencies need to be more mindful how they treat and what they deal with preadolescent and adolescent juvenile offenders. >> there's a notion a lot of people have is born bad. that charlie manson must have been born bad. >> i think there probably occasionally is a bad seed and despite good nurturing and good parental love and supervision a bad person can come from that.

but the vast majority of men that became serial killers came from very dysfunctional families and were victims of physical abuse, mental abuse, and sometimes sexual abuse at the hands of their own mother. >> lesson is go back to the beginning. >> treat your children well. >> thanks so much for being with us. >> you're welcome.

on this edition of msnbc reports. >> something drove me to do this. normal people just don't do this. >> for more than 30 years he lived among us, father, scout leader, serial killer. >> i am bt killer. >> now exclusive jailhouse recordings obtained by nbc news reveal the twisted mind and motives of the notorious killer dennis raider, the man called btk. his own chilling words reveal the monster inside the man still craving attention. >> i really feel pretty good. i feel like a star right now. >> little