ving your numbers. there's only one invokana®. ask your doctor about it by name. this sunday morning, the republican race. who do republicans think won wednesday's debate? who lost and where does the race stand now? we have brand new numbers and i'm talk to the front-runners of both iowa and new hampshire -- donald trump, ben carson and john kasich. plus, remember this moment from the debate? >> watch a fully formed fetus on the table, its heart beating, its legs kicking while someone says "we have to keep it alive to harvest its brain." >> what we now know those planned parenthood tapes show and how the fight over planned parenthood could shut down the government in ten days. also, hillary's dilemma. how does a well-known candidate like her win a change election?

it will be an issue for joe biden, too, who is inching closer to a run. finally, what does it feel like to be the wall street punching bag for both democrats and republicans? my interview with j.p. morgan chase ceo jamie dimon. and joing me this sunday for insight and analysis are author david maraniss of "the washington post," molly ball of "the atlantic," maria shriver, and radio talk show host and debate moderator hugh hewitt. welcome to sunday, it's "meet the press." >> from nbc news in washington this is "meet the press" with chuck todd. good sunday morning. the sunday morning after the big republican debate and we have the results of a brand new nbc news online survey conducted with our friends at survey monkey on who won the debate and where the reblican race stands. first, on the issue of who won the debate, for once the pundits were right. republican voters saw carly fiorina as the big winner

followed by donald trump. after that everyone else is in single digits and, by the way, the names you don't see, if your candidate is not there, it's because none of them topped 1% on that question. where does the overall race stand right now according to our new survey? trump laps the field at 29%, more than double of ben carson, and here comes carly fiorina moving into third place into double digits at 11% followed by jeb bush, ted cruz and marco rubio. if you don't see your candidate on there, that's because nobody else topped 3%. when you compare this survey to the results of the most recent real clear politics polling average, you can see the gains and losses. fiorina gained the most, eight points over and above her real clear average, and ben carson lost the most, six. so she got her support at the expense of carson. so with all that in mind we have three candidates this morning to joining us, ben carson, john kasich and my first guest, donald trump, who joins me by

phone. mr. trump, welcome back to "meet the press." >> good morning, chuck. i'm liking you more and more all the time. those are great numbers. >> you like the poll numbers i'm guessing. >> i certainly do. >> let me start with what you did in iowa. you brought your bible to the event. >> right. >> what do you believe a person's faith matters to voters? do you believe a person's faith should matter to voters when it comes to the presidency? >> well, i can't speak for everybody. to me it has a big bearing. the evangelicals have liked me a lot and i'm not saying i'm the perfect person, but they have liked me a lot and i spoke largely in front of evangelicals last night and we had a tremendous time and we had standing ovations and they had f fun. i brought my bible and they liked that. my bible that was given to me by my mother and we had a great time and, you know, the polls indicate that i'm doing very well with the evangelicals in iowa and elsewhere. >> in responding to this controversy about the questioner at your town hall in new hampshire you tweeted out you're not morally obligated to correct anybody who criticizes the

president, and i think you're right about that. but isn't it appropriate at times to raise the level of political discourse and to correct sort of mythologies that are out there so that we're ultimately all dealing with the same set of facts? >> well, i think so, but, you know, the president can defend himself very well. he's a very capable person for that purpose and he's able to do that and i sort of put myself in his position and i say, well, what happens when somebody says something about me? is he going to defend me? i can tell you emphatically the answer is no. so this man got up and he felt very strongly, whoever he was, he felt very, very strongly and very powerfully about something and whether we all agree with it or not, it wasn't my obligation to defend. in fact, as you note, because i also tweeted this is the first time i've ever gotten in hot water for not saying anything. i didn't do anything. >> but the other part of his question was it sounded like he wanted to get rid of all muslims from america. that's the part some people believed was the most offensive part of his question.

why not push back on that? >> well, i feel strongly the muslims are excellent -- i know so many muslims that are such fabulous people but there is a problem, there is no question about it and we can be politically correct and we can say there is no problem whatsoever but the fact is there is a problem with some and it's a very severe problem and it's a problem taking place all over the world. but i have such great respect and love for so many of the people. they are great people. >> can you imagine supporting or being comfortable if a muslim ever became president of the united states? >> i can say that it's something that at some point could happen. we'll see. i mean, you know, it's something that could happen. would i be comfortable? i don't know if we have to address it right now, but i think ts certainly something that could happen. >> you said you had no problem putting a muslim in your cabinet. >> some people have said it already happened, frankly, but, of course, you wouldn't agree with that. >> but let's get to that. why won't you concede that the

president is a christian and that the president was born in the united states? >> because i don't talk about people's faith. now, in all fairness he said he was a christian, he attended the church of reverend wright and so, you know, i'm willing to take him at his word for that. i have no problem with that. >> why not take the birth certificate at its word? >> well, i just don't want to discuss it. frankly, when you get into these subjects, i want to talk about jobs, i want to talk about the military, i want to talk about the vets and, frankly, how badly they're treated, they're treated like third-class citizens. we're treating illegal immigrants better than we treat our vets and those are the things i want to talk about. the other is a long, complex subject that i don't like talking about and i won't talk about it. >> don't you think you would have people more open to your message on jobs and the economy and things like that if you sort of put that other thing to rest? >> no, chuck, i don't think -- i think we have two things that are totally different. i just don't discuss it and it hasn't been brought up for a long time. i mean, you're bringing it up this morning, but i'm into the world of jobs.

i'm into the world of military and vets and, frankly, i discuss obamacare because obamacare, you see what's happening with the premiums. they're going through the roof. a lot of problems with obamacare. >> two quick questions. this week we'll see world leaders come to the united states, come to manhattan, probably hanging out at some of your buildings that you own. let me start with vladimir putin, your outside counsel intimated that you may have a meeting with the russian president. do you plan on trying to do that? >> well, i had heard that he wanted to meet with me and certainly i am open to it. i would love to do that if he wants to do that. i don't know that it's going to take place. i'm not sure. people have been talking but we'll see what happens, but certainly if he wanted to meet, i'd enjoy doing it. i've been saying relationship is so important in business and it's so important in deals and it's so important in a country and if president obama got along with putin that would be a fabulous thing but they don't get along, putin does not respect our president and i'm sure our president does not like him very much. >> let me ask you about the pope's visit.

he's been pretty tough on capitalism and people he believes overly worship money. you're somebody that likes to brag about how wealthy you are. what do you make of what the pope would think of sort of the way you speak about money? >> well, i think if he knew me he'd like me. if he doesn't know me, perhaps he wouldn't. if he knew me, he'd probably like me. he's a bit of a different kind of a pope. no question about it. he's taken on big political subjects like climate change and it's very interesting but he's got a certain way about him that's very unique and very nice. >> donald trump, i'll leave it there. i know we're trying to put together another face-to-face soon. i'll look forward to that. thanks for coming on the show. >> i do, too, thank you very much, chuck. >> you got it. joining me now is one of the top tier front-runners in the race, dr. ben carson, joining me this morning from georgia. dr. carson, welcome back to "meet the press." >> thank you, good to be with you again. >> i want to start with a criticism of you.

bill crystal writes this -- "did you watch the debate? neither trump nor carson has much of the grasp of the issues. carson is a christian gentleman and genuine conservative but he is not yet prepared to be president an he'd have to show an awful lot of growth to be ready a year from now." what did you say to bill kristol and other conservatives who like you but are concerned you're not ready for the job. >> i would say listen to what i actually say when i have an opportunity to say it in something other than a one-minute sound bite. that's a format that, you know, i have to grow accustomed to. that's not the world that i've lived in. but, you know, time will come down the road where i'll be able to adjust to that appropriately. >> do you view the presidency as something that you need to be a good manager where you don't necessarily have to have a full command of all policy issues? >> well, i think you need to have a very substantial command. but it's sort of like me as a neurosurgeon. i have know a great deal about

the brain, but if i have a patient who has a kidney problem, i also know a lot about the kidney but i don't know as much as a renal specialist does and, therefore, i would get a consult. >> recently you were talking about in dealing with isis you said you would be going after them with ground troops in iraq, but you would not go into syria. why? >> well, first of all, what i said is i would use every resource available to us. that includes financial resources, covert operations, special forces. everything that we have available to us and if that required ground troops would use those as well because it's unlikely a coalition will form behind nothing. and in terms of going into syria, i think you have to have sequential goals. one of the goals right now is to push them out of iraq which is the largest part of the caliphate that they have established. this is what makes them look very powerful.

they also control anbar and that's one of the largest energy fields in the middle east. push them out of there. don't allow them to have control of that. and i would be in favor of pushing them up into syria because there's going to be a a lot of conflict obviously with them there. let them fight each other because that's a very complex situation in syria. you have the russians coming in there now and establishing themselves. you have the chinese starting to establish some contacts there. you want to be very, very careful before you jump into the middle of that situation. >> it's interesting, there does seem to be a split in the field. you're one of those that says "let assad and isis a fight it out amongst themselves and then wait to see what happens and then clean up the questions later"? >> that is something that would certainly be on the agenda to consider.

>> let me wrap this up by finally dealing with what's been going on, donald trump in a deal with a questioner that claimed that the president was muslim. let me ask you the question this way -- should a president's faith matter? should your faith matter to voters? >> well, i guess it depends on what that faith is. if it's inconsistent with the values and principles of america then of course it should matter. but if it fits within the realm of america and consistent with the constitution, no problem. >> so do you believe that islam is consistent with the constitution? >> no, i do not. i would not advocate that we put a muslim in charge of this nation. i absolutely would not agree with that. >> and would you ever consider voting for a muslim for congress. >> congress is a different story, but it depends on who that muslim is and what their policies are just as it depends

on what anybody else says. and if there's somebody who's of any faith but they say things and their life has been consistent with things that will elevate this nation and make it possible for everybody to succeed and bring peace and harmony, then i'm with them. >> and i take it you believe the president was born in the united states and is a christian? >> i believe that he is. i have no reason to doubt what he says. >> all right. dr. carson, i will leave it there. i look forward to speaking with you again soon. >> all right, thank you very much. >> thank you. joining me now from mackinaw island in michigan is the governor of ohio, john kasich. governor kasich, welcome back to "meet the press." >> i always love being on "meet the press." many years. >> yes, sir. let me ask you -- you didn't get the greatest reception from some

of your home state papers following the debate this week. cincinnati enquirer "where was john kasich?" jootion columbus dispatch," kasich can be overlooked, and chrissie thompson wrote this, "kasich is a threat in new hampshire but candidates aren't visibly worried about him on the national station." what do you say about that? >> the fact is, in the debate, which was kind of like a demolition derby, i did fine in being able to tell people who i am but we all want more time, we all want to be in a position of where we get more time and one thing i don't want to be doing is jumping in saying "hey, wha about me? that's not the way to do it. by the way, the way this whole business works is state by state, not on the basis of what they think about you in nebraska. and if they're not worried about me, i have to try to figure out why they're all trashing me behind the scenes. so we're doing fine. there were so many doubts about whether i would get on the stage, whether i would raise the money. our campaign is extremely healthy and we continue to rise and i'm very pleased with where we are right now. >> right after the debate, day

after the debate, you were talking to a group of supporters and you said this when it comes to immigrants working in this country. >> a lot of them do jobs that they're willing to do and that's why in the hotel you leave a little tip. >> now, some groups took offense to your whole story here, feeling as if you were stereotyping latino immigrants. do you understand why they're offended? >> yeah. i would also tell you that the head of the hispanic chamber said he appreciated my comments and as you know, chuck, having followed me through this race, i've had a very reasonable position on immigration. i've always said that hispanics are such a critical part of the fabric of the united states. they occupy jobs from top to bottom. they're so critical to our country, they're god fearing and they're hard working. if i need to clarify what i meant by that, i'm glad to do it. that means they hold very important positions. i have a friend right now who's a doctor in oncology.

that just shows you how crazy it can get in this business, but to be clear, i believe that from top to bottom hispanics play a critical role in america, not only today but going forward. >> finally, i know you're not a big fan of addressing donald trump issues but let me ask the question this way when it comes to the president's faith. number one, should it matter what a president's faith is? >> well, look, i don't know about that, chuck. i'd have to think about what that means. it's not -- i believe the president, in fact, is a christian. if he wasn't a believer, that would be his business. but he is -- i believe he is. secondly, i don't agree with him. i think he tends towards redistribution, taking from those at the top and -- kind of the robin hood effect, i don't buy that. and secondly i think he thinks america should lead from behind on foreign policy and i don't buy that. but let me suggest -- and i've said this earlier today -- we need to respect our basic

institutions, whether it's the presidency, whether it's our teachers, whether it's our ministers or rabbis. we need to have great respect or the country begins to come undone, and so i may not agree with the president, but i respect the office and i respect the fact that he is the president of the united states, and hopefully i'm going to be. >> would you ever have a problem with a muslim becoming president? >> that's such a hypothetical question. the answer is at the end of the day you have to go through the rigors and people will look at everything. but i -- for me the most important thing about being president is that you have leadership skills, you know what you're doing and you can help fix this country and raise this country. those are the qualifications that matter to me. >> all right, governor john kasich, be safe on the campaign trail, i look forward to having you on again, sir. >> thank you. >> there you had it, our marathon of candidate interviews there, a lot to chew on, especially ben carson's suggestion that a muslim should not be president, that islam

does not fit the u.s. constitution. we'll get to all of that when we come back. plus, a look at the democrats and why it's looking more like when and not if for joe biden in 2016. wasteful either. ♪ you just gotta find that balance. ♪ where taking care of yourself takes care of more than just yourself. ♪ lease an mkz hybrid for $299 a month only at your lincoln dealer. ♪ ♪ [ female announcer ] everything kids touch at school sticks with them. make sure the germs they bring home don't stick around. use clorox disinfecting products. you handle life; clorox handles the germs.

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welcome back. let's turn to the democrats. there are many explanations people are offering up regarding hillary clinton's problem to maintain front-runner status and many have a familiar ring.

especially if you're al gore. was gore, many democrats whisper they like hillary but don't love her. as with gore, democrats lament that if she could only be like bill. it's standard some may say is unfair but may help to explain why there is a missing spark on the trail and why the chatter about an alternative, whether bernie sanders or joe biden is getting louder. >> have you considered bill as a running mate? >> like al gore in 1999, hillary clinton has inherited the perceived bill clinton baggage without channeling bill's charm to counter it. >> you know how much i love being interviewed. >> gore had trouble with the press. >> controversy over a canoe trip on a river with extra water pumped in to make it look better. >> she has trouble with the press. >> did you wipe the server? >> what, like with a cloth or something? >> the former vice president had trouble explaining fund-raising phone calls from the white house and a trip to a buddhist team. >> no controlling legal authority, no controlling legal authority, no controlling legal authority. >> the former secretary of state

has trouble explaining the e-mails from her private server. >> i do not send classified material and i did not receive any material that was marked or designatedlassified. any material marked classified. nothing that was sent at the time or received was secret. >> gore ran away from clinton instead of running with him, signaling he'd offer clinton's policies without the private mess. >> i felt that what the president did -- particularly as a father -- i felt it was inexcusable. >> hillary clinton is never going to run away from bill but for now her campaign is keeping the most popular democrat in america at arm's length while also hoping to be burnished by his economic legacy. and hillary clinton has this additional challenge -- winning a third term for her party. >> i am not running for my husband's third term, i'm not running for barack obama's third term, i'm running for my first term. >> it's not that different from the obstacle george h.w. bush ran in 1988. he ran a campaign that claimed continuity was enough change while proving he could be his own man. >> i want a kinder and gentler nation.

>> that worked for vice president bush, but gore could never thread the needle as effectively as he struggled with how much to hug bill. so far, hillary clinton appears to be using the bush 41 plakbook, trying to prove she's the change that voters need, a kinder, gentler obama. >> i get accused of being moderate and center. i plead guil. i think sometimes it's important when you're in the elected arena, you try to figure out how to bring people together to get something done. >> and a little news about joe biden and the potential candidacy. i want to tell you about one myth sources of mine want debunked, that's the idea that jill biden is not on board. in fact, that's not true. the vice president's wife is on board for a 2016 run should the vice president decide to do it. let me bring in the panel, david maraniss who has a new book about the city of detroit. molly ball of the "atlantic," nbc news contributor maria shriver and radio talk show host

and one of the moderators of the last debate, hugh hewitt. david, i want to start with you. you're the closest thing that's crawled inside the head of the clintons. you wrote a book on bill. >> it's a deep and dangerous place. >> this hillary clinton issue, it's -- she's not bill, right. that's really what you hear from democrats. that's ultimately why they're not rushing, they're sort of waiting to rush. >> yeah, the hillary dilemma is fascinating. you know, going all the way back to 1974 when she drove from washington up to fayetteville so they could attach their stars together, it's helped their rise together but it's also hindered her in two important ways -- one is she doesn't have bill clinton's charisma and amazing campaign abilities. you know -- and theater. you talk about authenticity. i always have called bill clinton an authentic phony. he really is good at that. hillary, if you look at it just as theater is a phony-phony.

she's not as good at it so that hurts her in comparison with bill. the other one is that because of bill clinton's history, there's been sort of an encrusted defensiveness to the clintons that hillary became sort of the pole star of defending her husband. and it became so second nature to her that i think that's what carried out through the e-mail problem as well. so i think she's had to overcome that. the parallel with al gore is fascinating because mrs. clinton, like al gore, is experienced, intelligent but she's also married to bill clinton and al gore he wanted. >> molly, you went through all that with -- earlier this week you wrote a fascinating piece like they can talk about all they want about repackaging clinton, trying to present her in a different way but hillary is hillary and what you see is what you get. >> she is. at the same time, you talk about her having trouble coming out from under bill's shadow, separating herself from obama and it's because she herself is not very well defined for people. and her campaign keeps trying to make this not about her, make it

more about the policy or the substance, that's the ground she's most comfortable on, but it's always going to be about her and she has trouble creating an image of herself in people's minds that really stands out and so you have her saying things like "i'm comfortable in the center, i want to bring everybody together." her new line now that she's stopped saying "everyday americans" because they decided that was weird. ts a little weird. so the new line is -- >> because the every other day americans, who are they, right? >> i personally am a weekend american, that's how i identify. so she has a new line "i want to be the president who's about the issues that you see on your tv screen and the issues that keep you up at night." so she's literally saying to people, i'm for whatever you're for and that's my identity. >> and that goes to this phony issue. this perception, is she just saying what i want to hear? >> it's difficult to put your finger on what's there. >> i think if we take a step back, she does have a tremendous amount of respect and a tremendous amount of support and i think to compare her to bill clinton is a little unfair.

she does have a long record, she's done a lot for middle-class americans, she's arguing to try to be the first female president of the united states and women ultimately will be the deciders of this election, be they republican or democrat. >> but, maria, you and i were talking earlier, i want to shift a little bit to biden. right now biden's never had it like this positively about a presidential race. he's only hearing from people that are saying "go do this, go, go, go, i'm with you." and trust me, you're hearing about it and it feels good to be drafted, right? you've had some experience with this in your family. >> that's true. let me just say i have so much love and respect for vice president biden and i think millions of people do and i think if you watch him even just recently on stephen colbert it was one of the best interviews i've ever seen of a public official. >> there was nothing phony about that. >> he's authentic, he's likable, people identify with his story, his loss. i think he's done more about the issue of fatherhood than probably any other public

servant. but having been involved with someone in my family who was drafted who was so important, you only heard the great thing, run, teddy, run. almost overnight polls went from "we love you we love you" to "what are you doing in this race?" >> this is ted kennedy in 1979. >> he was so popular and literally overnight it was like "what are you doing here?" so i think you have to be careful in these draft movements. you're never as popular as before you announce and you're never as popular as the day of your inauguration. >> hugh, i know you have a lot of feelings about joe biden but i want to stick to your party. react to what ben carson said about a muslim president. you're a religious guy. you study these things almost like a -- >> i'll be going from here to mass at st. matthew's cathedral and i believe in article vi of the constitution which is there shall be no religious test to enter into the presidency or any office in the united states. that's why i wrote about mitt romney in 2007. i'm an article vi person. so i'm surprised. i'll follow up on that. i think the answer ought to be,

president obama is a christian, anyone is eligible for the presidency of the united states, roger williams, women penn, charles carol roll, the first catholic signer of the declaration of independence. they'd be taken aback that religion is a hot button issue in 2015. it ought not to be. >> we'll pause it her. we've a lot more to talk about. planned parenthood insisted everything carly fiorina said about the planned parenthood tapes at the debate was "flat out false." fiorina stands by her claim. i'll try to sort it out after the break. when a wildfire raged through elkhorn ranch, the sudden loss of pasture became a serious problem for a family business. faced with horses that needed feeding and a texas drought that sent hay prices soaring, the owners had to act fast. thankfully, mary miller banks with chase for business. and with greater financial clarity and a relationship built for the unexpected, she could control her cash flow, and keep the ranch running. chase for business. so you can own it.

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in this week's nerdscreen, we'll look at the republican voters who are gravitating to the outsiders running for president, trying to get a better idea of who they are and here is how we define the outsiders.

they're the candidates who have never held elected office, carly fiorina, donald trump and ben carson. in the latest nbc news/marist polls we did out of iowa and new hampshire, these three candidates alone combine for more than 50% of the total republican vote. so you get an idea of who these people are. so who are they? well, most of them are unmarried, most are not college graduates and most call themselves conservative or very conservative. now, the unmarried and non-college grads tend to be more worried about their pocketbooks because they don't have two incomes or a degree to fall back on which makes candidates who have never served in the government and therefore aren't to blame in their eyes for the economy look like better choices. but it's the conservative or identifying as conservatives who really matter. why? because in 2012 those folks who called themselves conservative or very conservative accounted for a majority of primary voters in new hampshire and auge majority of iowa caucus goers. that's the good news, having the support of this chunk of the electorate ideologically is a big deal. now, here's the down side of

this coalition, unlike conservatives, people without a college degree, or who are unmarried, tend to be less likely to vote during the primary season. they may be general election voters, they don't always participate in primaries and this may be something that means that their numbers of the outsider candidates will deflate when the voting begins. we'll be back in a ment with a big controversy. what carly fiorina said about those planned parenthood tapes and what's really in them. at ally bank no branches equals great rates. it's a fact. kind of like shopping hungry equals overshopping.

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has 30% protein. support your active dog's whole body health with purina one. you aren't treated like a priority. we do things differently. we'll take care of it. we put members first. join the nation. thank you. ♪ nationwide is on your side as we saw earlier, carly fiorina was perceived as the winner of wednesday's republican debate by republican voters. one moment of hers that has gained extra attention is the claim about the undercover planned parenthood tapes. here's what she said. >> watch a fully formed fetus on the table, its heart beating, its leg kicking while someone says "we have to keep it alive to harvest its brain." >> awfully graphic there. fiorina was presumably talking about highly edited tapes made by an anti-abortion rights group and now fiorina's super pac has

doubled down on it, putting out an online video that appears to show what fiorina described. we're not going to show this on camera right now. but planned parenthood says of fiorina's claim "this is completely and totally untrue, every part of what she said is flat out false." planned parenthood says the fetus shown in the video was from stock footage edited into the tapes by the anti-abortion rights group and is not related to a planned parenthood health center. a non-partisan fact checking service called politifact says the anti-abortion rights group took an interview with a woman identified as a former tissue procurement technician talking what about she saw and edited the fetus video onto that interview. and politifact rated fiorina's as mostly false. highly charged issue, abortion always is. hugh hewitt, did fiorina go too far in her description here? >> i want to borrow from jack nicholson in "a few good men," planned parenthood can't habitual the truth. if the president of the united

states wants to shut down the government over these videos i hope they take kathy mcmorris roger, the chairman of the house republican conference, and have her speak three times a day with the shutdown with those videos rolling in the background. i watched them, i heard the technician. i believe carly fiorina intended to say that if you hear someone talking about this -- because that -- they're so terrible, they're so awful that they get jumbled in your head and you have to avert your eyes because it's murder. and so if planned parenthood wants to occasion the endless roll of those videos, which they're doing, they'll stand on that hill all day. but if the government shuts down and the president shuts the government down in order to fund planned parenthood's trafficking in body parts, that that's how they handle it. >> maria, i don't think planned parenthood believes this is what they're doing. go ahead. >> i think we can take a deep breath. you talked about what carly fiorina intended. that's different than what she actually said. you would agree with that, krengt?

>> she should have said "i heard the technician talking about this." but in that -- >> and everybody's agreed these videos are highly edited and we can also take a step back and say that planned parenthood does a lot of comprehensive -- >> i wouldn't call it highly edited. this is highly edited. >> this is live. >> well, yeah, but it's been edited in interviews chuck did earlier. >> but planned parenthood does a lot of good work. >> i'll stipulate on that. >> millions of low income families -- >> but they should not be funded by the federal government if they're going to trade in baby parts. they shouldn't. there shouldn't be a dime for them if they do that. >> they do health care work on behalf of women, they do testing, they do breast exams, there's a lot they do. >> not with my money. >> they don't trade in selling of body parts. >> molly, this is probably going to shut down the government and republicans are fighting -- i mean, hugh was -- i think you were doing your best, you wanted to put it on the president. the fact, is republicans are in disagreement with how to handle this issue. it's highly charged. the base of the party, frankly, most of the republican party, wants this to be their alamo.

>> absolutely. and you heard a number of candidates on the stage on wednesday night saying that they would agree with going there and you do have a lot of conservatives -- >> there was about half of the field was for it, i want to put up a graphic, and half of the field was against it. you can see here on screen of who was for it, using planned parenthood to shut down the government and those -- and it does split along your governing and non-governing lines. >> absolutely. and you have republicans saying well, first of all, how is this political poison when we just did it a couple years ago and went on to win big in the midterms? so this argument that we can't do it, it will kill the party, we'll never win a presidential election, a lot of them don't buy it. you have mitch mcconnell saying we can't do this, john boehner saying we can't do this and conservatives have heard this from them again and again and they are tired of it and they want this to be the hill they die on. >> yet i think some of the more pragmatic republican strategists look at the 2012 election and say obed dama usund planned parenthood as a way to motivate women voters in places like virginia and colorado.

>> i think this is -- i respectfully disagree with mr. hewitt on this and i think it actually is going to resound most to the benefit of hillary clinton. >> do you? >> i do. i think she can -- that issue is a winner for democrats, not for republicans. it's fine for them in the primaries but not in the general election. >> i don't think american people want to see the government shut down. they want to see solutions. >> i covered the '95 shutdown from the inside of the republican revolution and it was a disaster. and the last one wasn't as much but i think over this issue it will be. >> but, hugh, it's interesting. carly fiorina grabbed this issue away from mike huckabee, away from ted cruz. she's now the face of this. short-term politics, this is probably pretty good for her in the republican primary. >> she dominated the stage and i scored it, she won the gold and marco rubio got the silver and chris christie or jeb bush got the bronze but no one made a mistake. what she did is captured every moment that would mobilize voters. scott walker, by the way, is also very strong on this issue.

he hasn't gone around -- he's running the "harry potter" book series i was telling molly. it's the fourth "harry potter" book, the same story, he goes down and comes back up. he had good numbers on this, he's good on this issue in iowa. she captured emotional resonating issues in iowa and new hampshire and it will serve her and scott walker very well. >> we shall see. it's very different in a primary versus a general. all of this will be tested. later in the broadcast, why the visit to the united states this week by pope francis may have as much to do about politics as it does with religion. there's never been a papal visit like this that's coming up. how does it feel to be the face of wall street when both parties are saying you're the problem? jamie dimon responds. hey babe, last one home cooks? ♪ ♪ ♪ another tie.

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welcome back. it's not easy being the face of wall street, the top 0.0001% of the country. when both political parties see you as the problem of america's growing income inequality. that comes with the territory of being the top man at j.p. morgan chase. but still, some of jamie dimon's views might surprise you. i caught up with dimon in detroit, a city his company is investing a lot of money in to rebuild and i started by asking him why his bank is spending so much money in detroit. >> so j.p. morgan has a history

in detroit. then we saw all of a sudden a governor, a republican, and a mayor, mayor duggan, a democrat, start to talk in a way we thought was right. it wasn't about ideology, what does detroit need? they need street lights on. they need better police, they need sanitation. they need better schools and businesses. it's hard. they have to make that -- everywhere, you can't do it one at a time. you have to make the whole thing work. and we saw them being practical and not ideological and not partisan. we said we can see whether we can help. so we sent a team of people in to see what can jpmorgan do to accelerate the survival and hopefully the thriving of detroit. >> you're doing this for pr because people are so mad at the banks or are you doing this because it's good for the bottom line? >> it's -- we're doing it because it's good for the bottom line because we're here. we want -- i love america. i want america to do great so when we see problems, we try to help. >> let me borrow a phrase we're hearing a lot "china is killing us."

is china killing america? >> no, absolutely not. you saw recently they had a bump in the road and it was just a speed bump that showed you that the transition to where they are to where they're going won't be that easy. they're very smart, they're very educated but they have to move to real market reform and let the market make certain decisions, they have to broaden out, you know, what you might call their democracy, the 100 million people voting inside the communist party and they're going to have bumps in the road. >> should we be concerned that they hold so much of our debt? >> to the extent they're a peaceful neighbor, we try to help them. they own a trillion and a half u.s. dollars of our debt. our economy is worth a hundred trillion dollars. >> so this is a fear you think is unfounded? >> absolutely unfounded. >> the history of coming out of recessions. usually there's a faster acceleration in economic growth. we're not seeing that here. why? >> i give president bush, president obama, hank paulson, tim geithner, ben bernanke, enormous credit for it not

getting worse. they didn't want to take the risk, nor should they have. i think since then -- i won't blame any side here -- we've had a series of things which i think slowed things down. for example, the debt ceiling crisis, government shutdowns, gridlock on taxes, budgets. we didn't finish immigrati policy. those things are not good for america and i think -- i can never prove this, i think had we done all those things including a simpson bowles, chuck schumer and mccain came up with a detailed immigration plan which is moral, right, and good for the country, if we did the trade, if we do those things, we'd be growing a lot faster. >> so you're blaming washington. the economy, you're saying we would be at 3.5% growth without washington gridlock? >> i'm not going to blame washington because, remember, we elect those people. >> so you blame us? >> all of us. if we want people in washington to collaborate, let's elect people who will collaborate. >> we might be on the verge of another government shutdown. what do you say to conservatives

in the house that are thinking about doing this? >> i think that people -- i tell them you guys compromise in your family, you compromise with your friends, you compromise with your dinner, democracy is a compromise by nature, not a dictatorship. so anyone who says "my way or the highway" on one issue isn't necessarily thinking about the united states of america so i wish people would overcome that kind of stuff. a government shutdown is bad management. >> i'm going to get a bunch of e-mails that say "those fat cat wall street bankers they worry about their own compensation, he's paid too much." >> i completely understand because they see that things haven't gotten better for a large group of people. on the compensation thing, there are two things to say. if you took all the compensation of all the ceos of the top 500 companies in america, it wouldn't make a dent in this problem. so there are two things to keep in mind -- you're going to have free competition for people. you'll see it in sports, silicon valley, engineers, and that is a free market. you want that. that's companies -- people have

capital sharing their wealth with somebody but to get the wage going, what makes wages grow? and at the end of the day it's economic growth. >> do you pay enough in taxes? do you think your tax should go up? >> i pay about, i think, 50% of adjusted income and 40% -- i get deductions for charitable contribution, etc. i pay. but let me change the question. if you said to me "would you pay 10% more?" i'd have no personal problem doing that at all. zero. i understand that i should be paying more than my assistant pays or something like that. what the american public also don't feel is that money that goes to washington may not be properly used. so if you're going to raise taxes, for god's sake make sure it goes to productive use that people know can be properly done -- infrastructure, education, et cetera. >> it seems like the campaign trail, whether it's hillary clinton or bernie sanders or jeb bush and donald trump, all of them want to stick it to wall street in some of their tax plans and want to show the american public that they're

going to stand up to wall street. do you understand why they're running against you? >> yeah. we had a crisis, a lot of people got hurt, and the average american looks at what happened and they kind of blame wall street which is generally true, a lot of us were part of that problem and washington. and i would tell the american public it wasn't all banks. not all banks failed. a lot of these banks, what we did in the crisis, we were so steadfast, we lent money to everybody at the same price when the market wouldn't. so they couldn't get it here, they got it from us including illinois, california, new jersey, cities, schools, states, hospitals, companies, you name it. so we were there in the bad times and all the -- but banks did bad things and people generically blame them. so we've -- i think it's a good sign when people admit they made a mistake, which we have, we were part of making mistakes. we also did a lot of great stuff. >> you were a big supporter of the clintons over the years, in 2007 and 2008. will she make a good president and are you going to support her again? >> i am not going to get involved in politics at this

point. >> why is that? >> i think you guys are doing a perfectly good job laying these issues out. >> but you did get involved in politics. you were a big donor and raised money for her last time. why not this time? >> i don't know. i might, but i haven't decided what i'm going to do yet. >> you can catch the rest of my interview including his take on why ceos do not necessarily have all the skills required to be president on our website, metthepressnbc.com. before i go, david maraniss, i want to bring you in. at terrific book "once in a great city" that's a profile of detroit in its peak and when it started to fall in '26 and '64. detroit. the day i saw you in detroit jamie dimon was there, the vice president was there. there's a lot of action going on. is this real? is detroit's comeback real? >> in some ways ts, yes. and i've seen more energy every time i've gone back there. the midtown and downtown areas are booming. there's a lot of young people coming in reinventing themselves and the investment is there, but you have to remember what detroit gave america.

my book is about this magical time when it gave it not just the sound track of motown but also labor and civil rights and the middle class. and until you can bring back that working middle class into detroit, you can't call it a true renaissance. that is great start and i think it's starting to go from the symbol of a city of ruins to a city of hope but there's still a long way to go. >> the sense you get is people are now collectively rooting for it. it's a great book, check it out. back in 45 seconds. pope francis is in cuba this morning. why not everyone is enthusiastic about his visit to the u.s. this week. stay tuned for "end game" brought to you by boeing. everyone loves the picture i posted of you.

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and keep the ranch running. chase for business. so you can own it. time now for "meet the press" "end game" brought to you by boeing, where the drive to build something better inspires us every day. what you're seeing here are live pictures of the pope. he's in cuba. he was at revolutionary plaza. pope francis is holding a huge outdoor mass there. incredibly popular pope. he's been outspoken on his views about inequality and climate change, and when he lands in washington, d.c. on tuesday, he will not only have a religious schedule but a political one, too. maria, according to your shriver report snapshot poll of american catholics a full 86% think it's a good thing the pope emphasizes income inequality and environmental issues over things like abortion and same-sex marriage. remarkable. >> and i think catholics were tired of the discussion about

those other issues and they're really excited about this pope. it's historic he's speaking to the congress and in our poll it showed that they find his teachings very closely align with theirs and that they want political figures to also talk about these subjects. so i think that there's 70 million catholics in the united states who will listen very closely. they see him as a religious leader but also as a political leader. >> hugh hewitt, he'll speak before congress and probably mention climate changes. it will be uncomfortable for republicans, particularly conservative catholics. >> i won't be uncomfortable with anything the pope says. i'm looking forward to his visit here with cardinal dolan and then the huge family meeting in philadelphia. he's an energetic energizing figure for the church and any time a papal visit happens the church does well. >> david, we were talking earlier this week. you thought the pope's visit was going to -- it's coming at a fascinating time in our politics. explain. >> yes. well, you had donald trump on

earlier and i -- when i think of the pope i think mostly about the pope versus donald trump. and it will either be proved wrong or right very quickly. but my sense is the pope is such a stark contrast in what he represents from what donald trump and sort of the celebrity culture represents that it's going to get people in the middle thinking differently and it might have a profound affect on the republican race. >> molly, he's going to insert himself in the political debate in a way that -- i mean, i read george will this morning who just eviscerates the pope politically and you're just going is that what we're going to see? the pope get politicized like this? >> you've seen the white house try very hard to ride the pope's coattails. the president has talked a lot about trying to sort of embrace the pope's message, trying to sort of enlist the pope as an ally and i think, of course, the church doesn't want to be seen as on anybody's side but by emphasizing these issues, these liberal goals like the environment over the social issues that have been so divisive and that a lot of american catholics are not on board with, he's really changed the tenor, changed the tone of i

think how outsiders perceive the church. how the rest of the country -- now non-catholics view the catholic church. >> maria, you were saying you were impressed with him as a politician. that he's pretty good at this. >> he's very strategic. liberals think he's liberal, moderates think he's moderate and conservatives think he's moderate to conservative and they like him much better than the "institution" or the church he represents so i think there's a lot political leaders can learn. he's an outsider. people call him a prophet. he's the people's pope yet he's kept the people in the pews. >> and he's bringing people to the pews. it will be fascinating. i want to have a little fun here. it's a fascinating point. bernie sanders is starting to have fun trying to address this issue that he is a democratic socialist. take a listen. >> people call you a liberal and a socialist. why will you not accept those two terms as the insult they're meant to be? [ laughter ] >> does anyone here think i'm a strong adherent of the north

korean form of government? [ laughter ] and i want all of you to be wearing similar color pajamas. >> molly ball, this is -- i've had a lot of sanders supporters say stop calling him a socialist like north korea, that he was more for european democratic socialism. he is trying to redefine the word. >> but stephen colbert hit it on the head is because he refuses to take it at an i insult. people say "you, sir, you're a socialist!" and he says, "guilty as charged "ation and then he can get to the issues. it's working for him. >> the fact that he's showing a sense of humor, that's been bernie's problem. he needs to laugh at himself. that was the first time i'd seen that. wow, a packed show. we'll be back next week. big guest coming up next week. if it's sunday, it's "meet the press."

you are about to enter the "criminal mindscape" of serial killer reginald mcfadden. >> were you a monster? >> the worst of the worst. >> a man whose lethal vengeance towards society began in his teens. >> she started howling. gagged her, tied her up. >> convicted of murder, he gets life. but 24 years later, he's let loose. >> it was a really new beginning. though in my subconscious, there were other things. >> why does his second chance spiral into a deadly rampage?