philadelphia sunday for that 4:00 p.m. mass. big weekend. big week. it's been amazing already. this has been one of those days, one of those weeks that's just been nonstop news from morning until night. "weekends with alex witt" starts right now. >> one million people expected later at independence mall in philadelphia and thousands expected where the pope will appear against this back drop, independence hall. back in new york, we're bringing you some live pictures from the upper east side. that is where the pope stayed overnight and in a matter of minutes he'll be leaving here to travel to philly in the last leg of his trip to america. good morning, everyone. welcome to "weekends with alex witt." we'll begin with the pope's latest and last rousing events in new york city. they came out in the masses.

more than 80,000 people gathered in a locked down central park. the lines to enter the park stretched for blocks, dozens of people deep, waiting hours for just a glimpse when pope francis finally appeared. the crowd was roaring, tears were flowing. some making the sign of the cross and almost everyone taking photos. >> i had tears in my eyes and it was just -- it was just such a holy moment for us. >> and another 20,000 people, the lucky ticketed few, greeted pope francis for his evening mass at madison square garden in what has become a hallmark of his papacy, he blessed a family and their young child with a disability. pope francis then delivered his homily in spanish and called for those living in cities to care for the disenfranchised, to live in what he called deafening anonymity. >> translator: the people who walked in the darkness have seen a great light.

and we, christians, are witnesses of that light. >> and within this hour, pope francis will leave new york for philadelphia that is where the main events of this historic visit are still to come. we have several reports covering the pope's last stop here in the u.s. nbc's stephanie gosk and msnbc's casey hunt are in philadelphia for us. we'll begin with you casey, good morning, unprecedented security there. what do people have go through just to get a glimpse of the pope? >> reporter: good morning. well, philadelphia is on lockdown this is just at a completely different level. the entire center of the city here in philadelphia is walled off with barriers usually several feet above my head. people are waiting in line just to even access those areas, to get to the hotels they might be staying at. we saw yesterday a nun whose habit was being patted down by the tsa agents who have come in

for this occasion. this area where we are now, this is independence hall behind me. this is of course a storied building. that's so much symbolism for the pope. this is the building where the declaration of independence and the constitution was signed and i'm not sure if you can see the podium he'll be speaking from is the one that abraham lincoln gave the gettysburg address. this is a ticketed event. these chairs behind me are all assigned, so it's people who were able to get tickets through a certain way and then ycrowds are spilling out behind him. he'll come here at 4:00 a.m. or so after he holds mass at basilica. >> casey, you have covered a lot of things presidential and otherwise. you mentioned the security many washington, but i understand in philadelphia there's a 4 1/2 mile square area that's been put in lockdown.

put this in perspective. have you ever seen anything like this? by all accounts the kind of security being afforded the pope is even greater than what would be given to the president of the united states. >> reporter: it's greater by a factor of up to four, alex. i have worked quite a bit with the people who are putting on especially the media logistics for this event. one of them was working the super bowls this year and said that this is as big of four super bowls put together. they're describing it as the largest event logistics in history. they have been working on it for a month and a half an they had to figure out how to put up the magnetometers to this 4 1/2 square miles. you can't drive a car way beyond there. there are zones where no vehicles are allowed. it's normally a public area so imagine for those living here it's a complete change from the

day to day. and, you know, so far, everything has gone off very smoothly. very well. the u.s. secret service hasn't seen any major incidents or problems, but particularly here in philadelphia, if you think about it, what we're used to in washington, there's the capitol, there's the white house. there's all this infrastructure that's already present. they're used to dealing with big media crowds for example. philadelphia there's none of that. so they have literally had to build this from the ground up. >> casey, thank you very much. joining me here in studio is elizabeth leb. she's a professor at a university in rome. we're glad to have you. talking security, interesting with this pope, what kind of nightmare is it for those? for nose who have to guard him. he regularly goes off script, he loves to embrace the people. talk about that. >> one of the unsung heroes of

this story is that tall blonde man -- the tall blond man you see standing next to the pope. he's the head of pope francis's security service. he was the head of pope benedict's security force. and all of a sudden, 2013, pope francis was elected. and his job went from being something that was understandable within the realm of, you know, what you would expect to do as a chief security officer for the vatican city state to a pope who wouldn't live on the top floor of the apostolic palace, but went to live in a guest house that backs out into the road. and a pope who after mass he would sail outside of the vatican city walls so he's been a fascinating challenge for his security team who have risen to the challenge. one of the most interesting things i have been watching is the relationship between those two you can see them at times almost a little bit of tension.

the pope wants to stop, no, here you can't, here you can. it's turned into quite a beautiful relationship if you watch them together. >> that's fun, i'll have to pay more attention to that with regard to people and the way they approach the pope, we have seen people reach out to him and security protocol was such that you're not supposed to reach out and touch the pope, but he seems to embrace that. what is it about this man? his physicality, he approaches people, or is it a spiritual thing, or is it more than that? >> i was watching a cute ad on tv about latinos. we hug, we embrace and there's pope francis. pope francis doesn't want to talk at you or talk across the space. he's called the builder of bridges. but he wants to be the physical bridge you and joy. so he reaches out. he wants to embrace and in rome, in st. peter's square, he will wade right -- he used to wade right up into people. people coming towards him.

have you watched how many people feel comfortable with wrapping their arms around the pope, kissing the pope? >> yes. >> it's an extraordinary warmth that he exudes. >> yeah, it is extraordinary. well, while we have you we'll talk about other things. i want to go to nbc's kristen dahlgren, she is here in new york city and she is watching for any signs of the pope getting up and at 'em this morning. what is it like there? >> reporter: no rest for this pope here, alex, in new york city. yeah, early morning, he's expected to leave in about 20 minutes so we are outside waiting. you can see the motorcade lined up. somewhere in the line is the world's most famous fiat. he'll be getting into that and then heading towards jfk airport on his way to philadelphia. now, if there was any question of whether or not this is the people's pope, you only needed to come to new york for a little bit of reassurance. i think a lot of time visitors

worry about how they'll be treated by the locals, but no worries for him. there's been huge crowds and huge outpouring of support along the way. that mass last night here in new york. more than 20,000 people at madison square garden, between 80 and 85,000 people estimated out at central park yesterday. just to catch a glimpse of the pope as he went by in the popemobile. he also of course had events at the 9/11 museum, at the united nations, and touching moments with those kids in east harlem. so it's been a jam-packed schedule. he was last night an aide was asked how he's doing. he got around in the madison square garden in the golf cart so there was some concern he wasn't feeling that way. he was a little tired and the aide said, yeah, he's tired but that's normal. he's 78. so not totally unexpected. but the aide reassured everybody that he has energy for the next two days and what's bog to be a -- what's going to be a busy two days in philadelphia. 1.5 million people expected to

come out and see him there. so really just an exciting time. we do have a few people gathered this morning to try and catch a glimpse of him as he heads out of town, alex. >> kristen, thank you for standing by. we'll come back to you as soon as we see the pope emerge to that point, he's a 78-year-old man. there were times when he was visibly exhausted. you could tell. he's man who's also talked about his expectations for a short papacy which nobody wants. talk about his physicality, how healthy of a pope he is report to be. >> i think one of the things that any, any normal parent looking at these or any busy person is looking at his schedule, thinking how do you do that? we look at super parents, how do you manage to go to the gym, take your kids to school, blah blah blah. we're looking at his schedule and the amazing thing, he does it all with such joy and with a smile. i think there are a couple of things to bear in mind. maybe we'd ask what vitamins are you taking, are you juicing? and in his particular case, we know what nourishes him.

it's straight out of the gospel. there's a beautiful story about jesus was tired and he said, well, even if he's tired he brings one more sheep into the fold. and when the apostles show up, food, rest, he says my food is doing the will of the one who sent me. you're looking at it. you're looking at those words being lived out right now yes, i think we expect it to be a short pontificate, but this is true of many great saints. we might be on the early end but after this trip i think we're not. one of the great -- attributes of certain saint, they give themselves completely. the catholic church has a term called white martyrdom. instead of being killed or eh crucified or beheaded for jesus, but someone who pours his life out entirely. and that's really what you're looking at with this man. >> all right. well, elizabeth, don't go too far. i'm enjoying the class you're giving us, thank you so much.

coming up next, house speaker john boehner quitting congress. who will take his place and what does it mean for the government shutdown? and more on the pope and a rousing day in new york city. >> at every single mass, every single day, we pray for and in union with francis, our pope, and now here you are. when you do business everywhere, the challenges of keeping everyone working together can quickly become the only thing you think about. that's where at&t can help. at&t has the tools and the network you need, to make working as one easier than ever.

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at a quarter past, it is a big day in philadelphia, crowds are going to grow coming up in a couple of hours as another busy schedule lies ahead for pope francis. he will be celebrating mass at a basilica. he will then be speaking at independence mall, then this evening he will attend the festival of families. but before he heads to the city of brotherly love, he's in new york. he will be heading out of town at the top of the hour. in the meantime, new fallout today from house speaker john boehner's decision to step down. the speaker's decision could have a major impact on everything from immigration reform to a possible government shutdown. and nbc's kristen welker is at the white house. what more do we know about the speaker's surprise resignation? >> reporter: hey, good morning. really stunning. house speaker boehner, one of the most powerful republicans here in washington so his decision to step down as speaker of the house stunned the entire political world. still, with or without speaker

boehner, washington will likely remain a very sharply divided place. >> heads up, guys. >> reporter: washington is waking up to a new reality. this man of the house is leaving a house divide. a decision he made friday. >> i woke up and i said my prayers, as i always do. and i decided, you know, today is the day i'm going to do this. as simple as that. >> reporter: the move comes a day after boehner, a devout catholic, welcomed the pope to the u.s. capitol and after years of budget battles, revolts from his own party and a gridlocked congress. >> it's become clear to me that this prolonged leadership turmoil would do irreparable harm to the institution. >> reporter: the move sparked cheers from some rank and file republicans who were trying to oust him. >> speaker boehner announced he would be resigning. >> reporter: one immediate result -- he would try to prevent a government shutdown he's at least for a little

while, by forcing a vote. and some are threatening a shutdown over planned parenthood. but will it ease the partisan bitterness on capitol hill? >> if anything the tone in washington is likely to become more and not less confrontational. >> reporter: the chances for agreement on immigration and climate change, unlikely. the man expected to take boehner's place, majority leader kevin mccarthy, whom boehner all but endorsed on friday, the same day that president obama called boehner a good man while looking to the future. >> i'm looking forward to working with the next speaker and in the meantime, john's not going to leave for another 30 days. so hopefully, he feels like he's getting as much stuff done as he can. and i'll certainly be looking forward to working with him on that. >> reporter: now, even if boehner averts a shutdown for now, there are still big battles looming including over the highway funding bill and of course the debt limit. you remember that big fight from

20011, alex. these are fights that boehner will be happy to sit out this time around. >> you think, perhaps. but here's a question. without boehner's presence, is the government more or less likely to shut down? >> reporter: well, it seems like he is vowing to try to prevent a shutdown, alex. he said he's going to hold a vote. that is something to will rankle some of the rank and file republicans, however, if he holds a vote, he could get enough votes to actually pass the legislation. and keep the government open. but here's the key, alex. for how long? they're talking about a short term spending bill that would likely only last through the middle of december. so we could be revisiting this fight at that point even if boehner is successful at averting a shutdown right now. >> to which i respond with a deep sigh. okay. thank you very much, kristen welker. see you again from the white house. >> thanks. let's get some more now on the pope and nbc's claudio,

let's talk about the pope's schedule for the day at which point does he reach the beautiful and old i think national historic register of the basilica behind you? >> reporter: the pope is supposed to land here at 9:30, so he arrives here at the basilica half an hour later. at 10:30, he is expected to hold a mass inside the basilica and another 1,200 people attended, selected by the archdiocese of philadelphia. well, i can see behind the camera here, there's already a couple -- well, like a hundred people already waiting. three hours to go to the mass. not many. usually you see a lot more gathering up, but probably it's because people are finding it quite difficult to move around this morning. well, last night. as a matter of fact, when we arri arrived, eight feet tall metal fences and concrete barriers were put around the city.

roadblocks everywhere. magnetometers. quite difficult to move around, but i'm sure the people will trickle down to take a peek of the pope. >> claudio s this the first time that a pope has visited that historic cathedral or not? >> reporter: no, john paul ii was here in 1979. well, as a matter of fact, there would be a small relic of john paul ii inside the basilica that will make today more special, alex. >> all right, claudio, thank you so much. well, coming up, everyone, why it is important for non-catholics to hear pope francis' message. >> -- by your life. >> thanks be to god. >> please, i ask you don't forget to pray for me.

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welcome back, everyone. today's big headlines are all apope francis's visit. there's the bonus, the merchandising and the big delay. breaking it all down is regina lewis. good morning to you. first, let's get to the bonus. what it is from the pontiff's visit? >> well, there's upside. first of all, let me start as a nod to my catholic grandmother it's priceless he is here. very good marketing in particular for philadelphia. that doesn't get a lot of headline events. but the upside is different than say from a super bowl where people fly in with deeply lined pockets. some are traveling by bus, but it's expected that about half a billion dollars contribution, mostly to hotels and

restaurants. also area stores see suppressed sales, people don't want to brave the traffic and are tied up watching the pope. even on television so they're not headed to malls. >> what about merchandising? what are the hot sellers? >> well, we are seeing the usual fare nerms of buttons and bracelets and the plush pope doll is doing very well for $20. there's $160 life sized pope cutout that if you want him -- literally his presence in your room, that's the plush doll right there. there's cheese, inspired by santa shaped cheese so you can get that in philadelphia this weekend. a toaster, an insert. if you want to have the pope's image on your toast in the morning you can do that too. >> okay. let's talk about the big delay. you touched on the traffic and people's inability to get around. how is that affecting commerce? >> e commerce, including the

iphone 6 plus which people were expecting yesterday in the new york city area and they did not arrive. affecting about 404,000 packages. and some companies are finding work arounds. so comcast in particular in philadelphia, where they're headquartered today their customer service calls, the technicians are going to be dispatched on bicycles instead of in the xfinity fans. >> that was pretty good. of course, comcast is our parent company, but that was good thinking. all right, thank you so much. regina lewis. have a good one. well, coming up, the house chaplain talks about what it was like to be there as the pope addressed congress. plus, more highlights from the pope's visit as he prepares to head to his next stop, philadelphia. >> people who walked in the darkness have seen a great light. and we, christians, are witnesses of that light. ♪ [music]

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yoplait original with no artificial sweeteners, no artificial flavors, and no high fructose corn syrup. and welcome back to "weekends with alex witt." pope francis heads to philadelphia today for the last leg of his u.s. visit. more than 1 million are expected to come out to philadelphia and see the pontiff this weekend. and nbc's stephanie gosk is right there with more on today's events. and what is promising to be the biggest event of the week. stephanie, to you, good morning. >> reporter: good morning, alex. well, that big event the mass tomorrow morning and there's a big event tonight. you see behind me city hall in philadelphia and right in front of that is one of the check points, one of many check points that people are going to have to pass through to try to get to

the pope. and everyone here wants a glimpse of the pope. he's got a hectic schedule today. again, like every other city. he's coming in, he's going to do a closed mass at the basilica. he's then going to inddefense hall which is -- independence hall steps away from the liberty bell and then the festival of families where they're expecting more than a million people. this week, pope francis praised american democracy. >> god bless america. >> reporter: today, he is coming to its birth place -- philadelphia. the stop in his whirlwind three city tour fulfills a promise made to families. >> this city is going to be filled with hundreds of thousands of people walking the streets, singing hymns and just filled with joy. >> reporter: the biggest event of the week is sunday's public mass. a crowd of over 1 million people. the largest this city has ever seen is expected. the murrays will be there.

john paul actually met his name sake right here in philly. >> i'll certainly be happy to see the pope from afar. but i don't think we'll catch the magic in the bottle twice. >> reporter: 26 years later the family is hoping to catch a glimpse. >> the pope just didn't touch john paul, but everybody's heart. >> reporter: philadelphia is the pope's final stop and the biggest lockdown yet. a 4.5 square mile security zone rings the city. something we experienced first hand. so this is where my producer craig and i were unceremoniously dropped by the taxi. you have to walk and you have to go through security. it's a good thing i brought my walking shoes. we are in downtown philadelphia. it looks like someone has dropped airport security right in the middle of the road. the tsa is even checking people. so what are you -- >> we are from st. paul. >> reporter: the pope's trip to philly comes on the heels of a

packed day in new york city. addressing the united nations general assembly. pope francis met families of 9/11 victims and schoolchildren in east harlem. he rode through central park in an open procession. capping his night with a mass for more than 20,000 at madison square garden. >> don't forget to pray for me. >> reporter: once again, his desire to meet the faithful was on full display. families have been pouring in since the very early hours. i was up at 5:00 a.m. to come and do live shots. people are already walking and going through the security check points. all of them, alex, are hoping they can catch a glimpse of the pope, but what we're being told is it will be even harder in this city to see him than it was in washington, d.c. and in new york. back to you. >> well, given the incredible crowds i have to is you the tenor of people bog through the check points. it is one thing to go through the tsa screenings to get on a plane, but totally different to see a pope.

you didn't seem to mind the fact you had to walk and schlep your bag to get to the hotel quite a ways away. do you think people are good spirit and it, do you hear any complaints about security? >> the only complaints come from those who aren't part of this. if you live here it's difficult because you're talking about the complete shutdown of an american city here. but the people that come in a are -- especially those going to the events, they know that there's going to be tight security. they know already that they have to go through the check points and all of them are just so happy to be here that a check point and a couple of tsa agents isn't really going to get in the way of that. alex? >> well, let's hope these sentiments will last for a long day. thank you so much, stephanie gosk in philadelphia. well, one of the most astonishing sites of pope francis's visit came on thursday morning. the bishop of rome the leader of

a catholics worldwide addresses the joint session of the u.s. congress. >> mr. speaker! the pope of the holy see. >> joining me now is father patrick conroy, chaplain of the u.s. house of representatives. welcome, father, nice to have you here. i'm very curious what thursday's address meant to you personally. not only are you the house cap chaplain, but a fellow jesuit and an american citizen. what did this mean to you? >> well, that's a big question. one of things that so great i think about the united states of america and about our constitution, way of government is that all religions and certainly it's been historically true of the roman catholic church have been able to flourish under our system in the united states of america. and so having the pope come for

the first time is certainly a historic event and occasion. and it was -- i was, you know, not surprised that the -- that the jesuit pope, i think any pope would do this, but the jesuit pope kind of got that. and spoke to -- spoke to us about a -- you know, our democratic values and our values of freedom to, you know, to flourish. and, you know, within that context in a sense calling us as americans, calling the congress, but all of us to be our better selves. you know, to fulfill all the greatest ideals of our way of life and especially, again, you

know, a historical reality that even, you know, as it says on the statue of liberty, you know, that even the poor and the huddled masses ought to be able to come here for their chance to thrive. you know, also reminding us historically that's -- that is what's, you know, part of the greatness of the new world. >> absolutely that is something that's being echoed. that sentiment all over. i know you got a chance to meet the pope prior to his speaking there in front of congress. what did you say to him, what was your interaction like? >> well, i was privileged with the senate chaplain, dr. barry black, to greet him as he walked into the capitol building. and i -- you know, the schedule was very tightly held, so i knew i only had a greeting. so i speak halting spanish, so i didn't -- i didn't presume to begin a conversation with him.

i welcomed him. one jesuit to another. and then i asked him if i could give him a blessing. that's kind of a slam dunk question because i'm sure he was -- sure he would say yes. so i gave him a blessing and i -- you know, i asked that the power and the wisdom of the holy spirit would come upon him as, you know, he was at the capitol. >> that must have been a magnificent moment for you. you may agree, sir, that if any institution could use a few prayers it is the u.s. congress. pope francis delivered that message of unity and cooperation. i want to listen to a short portion of that. >> political leaders, there's one hope. with the interest of all in m d mind, seizes the moment in a spirit of openness and

pragmatism. >> father conroy, how hopeful are you that pope francis's address may inspire a spirit of cooperation between the parties that might last longer than say a week? >> well, are we going talk real politic here or are we going to talk religious hope? i mean, i'm hopeful that in some senses the pope gives people cover, you know, to maybe take a risk. and it would be a political risk to get along and, you know, perhaps revert to, you know, our ideals. the political realities though of life on the hill and life back in the districts, you know, i suspect -- you know, ought to carry a lot of weight. i mean, that's the way that our system works and, you know, one

hopes that people rise heroically, you know, to overcome habits of conflict or habits of disagreement, you know, that are hard to break out of. unless something comes along and triggers that. we have seen that, you know? we have seen that in our history and even in recent history. an event like the shooting in south carolina, it kind of moved people in ways that they weren't ready to move. so, you know, i have hope. it would be great. i don't know what that would mean, but it would be nice to -- and i must say being on the floor of congress while the pope was there and then yesterday after he was gone, everybody seemed to be in, you know, like better moods than they have

been. but something special happened. i think people were caught up in that goodwill. >> we'll see how long everyone can hang on the that. i'm curious, sir, how long have you known about john boehner's hope to bring the pope to speak there on capitol hill, speak to congress? was that something that you were part of from the beginning? how long was that in the works? >> well, i would like to say it was my idea and my initiative, but i learned about it when the news broke that the pope was invited. >> really? >> oh, yeah. that's the same way i learned about, you know, arnold palmer and jack nicklaus coming as well. you know, the speaker clearly people know now, you know, how devout a catholic he is. certainly in that sense, that, you know, i highlight of his life. i think he would say that the pope came, and that he spent

quality time with pope francis. so clearly, this was something that was very, very important to john boehner. >> true. >> but, you know, john boehner has been pretty good as a politician and as a speaker of holding his cards pretty close to the chest. so in the aftermath you can see how giddy he almost is. and how liberated now he feels. and i don't think that's a causal connection with the pope having come and said something that led to his announcing his retirement. you know, it's not causal, i think it's coincidental in that sense. but who knows? maybe he felt a certain amount of freedom that he -- that it was time. >> perhaps so. perhaps he just decided that was time and maybe that was -- if any relationship the pope's presence made him think more deeply than usual and follow his

heart. so anyway, wonderful to speak with you, father patrick conroy. >> thank you. let's get some more on the pope's overall visit. we bring in father kevin o'brien, the chaplain resident at georgetown university. welcome to you. what have your impressions been of the visit? >> yeah, good morning, alex. i have been struck how this visit has affected so many people. i have been here in d.c. and then i was in new york the last couple of days as well, and everyone seems to be talking about the pope and what he means and how the pope mak them feel. people, you know, we are seeing on the subway or in cabs or in the studios here with msnbc. so i have been struck by how much the pope affects folks personally. >> you wrote in the georgetown review, what pope francis is doing is nothing new, but how he goes about it is. what do you mean by that? >> right. so, you know what he talks about, the teachings of the church and what the church

stands for most fundamentally have not changed. but his style is so different, and i think that's part of the appeal. that's part of the reason why people have reacted the way they do. you know, he speaks in plain language. he uses symbols and stories which really speak to just normal, everyday people. he talks about normal, everyday working people like he did in his homily last night at madison square garden. he's really down to earth. and then he has not just words that reach people, but manners an gestures and styles. so he'll jump into crowds, he'll smile so easily. he'll engage people in informal conversation. he's pastor at heart. that's his strong suit, he's a pastor, a man of the people. he was a parish priest, a priest of the slums in buenos aires. he loves walking about with people. that's what -- that's what he does best and he loves connecting with people. and that connection facilitates people hearing the message he

wants to offer. >> all right. father, we'll take a short break here. i'll ask you not to go too far away and we'll speak with you again. which i look forward to. poverty is a major concern of pope francis' but how can his plea for help make a difference? >> god is living in our cities. the church is living in our cities. this bale of hay cannot be controlled. when a wildfire raged through elkhorn ranch, the sudden loss of pasture became a serious problem for a family business. faced with horses that needed feeding and a texas drought that sent hay prices soaring, the owners had to act fast. thankfully, mary miller banks with chase for business. and with greater financial clarity and a relationship built for the unexpected, she could control her cash flow, and keep the ranch running. chase for business. so you can own it.

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at 49 past the hour, about to give you a live look at the wall street heliport. that's where what is usually called marine one when the president is aboard is leaving and taking pope francis to jfk airport for his flight to philadelphia. of course, the final stop on his leg of visits here to the united states.

and one of the biggest issues that the pontiff has been talking about during this visit, global poverty. joining me the vatican on globl poverty. eric, with a welcome to you. we've heard this pope speak about the poor almost everywhere he goes. in fact, here's what he said at the u.n. friday. >> translator: the poorest of those who suffer most from such offenses for three serious reasons, they are cast off by a society, forced to live off what is discarded and suffer injustly from the consequences of the abuse of the environment. >> so as you heard him there, he makes the connection between the environment and what happens to the poor as a result. do you think his message is being received, it's being transmitted and people are getting it? >> i think he -- i think people

are getting his message, and certainly he's altered his message very specifically for the american people so they can hear it. you know, generally the central theme of this holy father's papacy is that we must all build an economy where no one is left behind, and when he talks about the environment, when he talks about peace, when he talks about migration he connects it all to economic issues. when we joined him at the white house and at congress his central theme was we must protect the vulnerable. we must protect inequality. at the united nations in what we just saw was what was amazing was to see how technical the holy father became about the policies that actually caused poverty around the world, that actually caused inequality. he went as far not only to make that particular reference about the environment but to talk about the need to stop the oppressive lending system and to stop what formally was a sin in

the catholic church, usury, lending to countries at a high interest rate to make profit. >> last night at madison square garden at the service he said to watch for glimpses from god amongst the poorest of the poor. >> translator: there are the foreigners, their children who go without schooling, those deprived of medical insurance, the homeless, the forgotten elderly. these people stand at the edges of our avenues and our streets in deafening anonymity. >> why is this message so important to the pope? >> well, it's because he is talking about we have to have an economy that includes everyone and he continues to reference the millions that are being left

behind. you know, since the financial crisis more than 100 million people, mostly women and children, have been pushed into extreme poverty, and these are the people that he's referencing. this is a central part of his message, and i think what's been so exciting is how specific and technical this particular pope is on these economic issues, that we need to change the structures. he's so specific, in fact, in his daily homilies, in his weekly addresses on sunday in saint peter square. he regularly references issues like corporate tax avoidance, corruption, public budget transparency, the need to stop secrecy jurisdictions, the need to stop the savage behavior of a small group of hedge funds that get their profits by exploiting poor populations. i mean, he's a popular pope with a popular message, but what really makes the holy father very unique is how specific and technical he's getting as he did at the united nations yesterday.

>> yeah. and i know your organization, eric, focuses on debt relief for the impoverished. you're listening to all of these particular details that come from the pope routinely, but my question is what impact have you seen in terms of debt relief in helping the poor? >> well, there are impacts, and i have to say, watching him yesterday was one of the most inspiring moments of my entire life. to hear what he was saying at the united nations. our organization, jubilee u.s.a. network, was founded by pope john paul ii and other religious leaders, jews and christians all over the world, in the great debt crisis where the number one reason that countries were dealing with inequality, just like today according to the international monetary fund, was because of their sovereign debt. so pope john paul ii urged us to win debt relief. since our campaign began we have won more than $130 billion of debt relief for the world's poorest countries.

>> yeah. >> by international law, that money has to go into building schools and hospitals in africa, in the poorest parts of the world, and right now what we've seen the pope do in his speech is actually follow up on specific policy recommendations he's made that are moving forward, both at the united nations and to some extent at the international monetary fund in congress. this pope actually called for the development of a global bankruptcy process at the united nations. he alluded to it yesterday and he said this is a necessity if we want to stop austerity programs in greece, if we want to build an economy that leaves no one behind. >> eric lacompt, thank you very much for weighing in on those things that are clearly important to the pope and to the global economy and to the poor around the world. we appreciate your insights. to all of you looking to the left of the screen, you are seeing the pope who has left the residence there on the upper east side. he is supposed to be going to

the wall street heliport. normally that would take enough minutes to put him behind schedule. he's supposed to depart at 8:00 a.m. from the heliport. if you're looking at a digital clock it's almost 7:56. i think even the pope may be running a little bit late. i think he's going to be a little bit behind the time. as elizabeth levery joins me, thank you for being here, elizabeth. this pope, how difficult is it for him to literally stay on the schedule? as i look at the rundown it is parsed out minute by minute as much as we see from the president. >> everybody who's watching this from rome is saying, where's your roman time? they're always late. i think francis wants to take the extra time to be with people. the idea that there's some sort of tiny little scheduled block for him to be with the people, he came here to be with the american people, to really reach out to them. you know, one of the things that

struck me in the speech he gave to the u.n. yesterday is that he used the word exclusion over ten times and the negative exclusion. the idea of negative. the one thing he wants no one to feel is excluded, so i think in his schedule he keeps trying to build time to make people feel included. >> joining us also from washington, again, from georgetown university, father kevin o'brien. he's the chaplain in residence there. father o'brien, to elizabeth's point there, this pope must be very aware of his significance and the way he touches people. as elizabeth was mentioning, he wants to greet people and spend time with them. he may have been taking time just to thank those who helped take care of him while he was staying on the upper east side. talk about that and his awareness of the effect he has. >> well, i had the opportunity to meet him once, and when you meet -- when you meet him you feel like you're the only person in the world. he looks you in the eyes, he grabs your hands and i think -- i suspect that he said thank you

to every person who worked at the place he stayed. i was involved in attending some of the events here in washington and i've been helping msnbc on their fantastic coverage this week. i am exhausted following the pope, i can't imagine being him knowing he's 78 years old. remember, he's got one working lung. his energy is inexhaustive it seems. i've noticed that he has different modes of relating. when he's with people, when he's with children in particular, he comes alive, right? and he also is very serious when he gives speeches. when he says mass, he goes into another more solemn mode, but when he preaches at mass he gets animated, alive, vigorous and he's a man of great passion. i mean, don't forget his south american roots, right? which is coming from buenos aires, a pastor of the streets, he loves the streets.

he loves the city. and, boy, what we saw here in washington and what we saw in new york, this pope loves these big cities. remember, he's never been to the united states before, and now he gets to go to another fantastic american city, philadelphia, where the crowds are going to be even greater than we've seen in new york or in d.c. >> and, elizabeth, when you talk about this pope now, certainly we're studying him. we follow his every move. but what was he like prior to ascending to this position? was he still very warm? was he always someone that -- was he quiet? was he introverted? is there a difference knowing this -- being the pope requires maybe a different approach? >> i think every single person who knew cardinal bergolio, they say he completely changed. he lived a quiet life back and forth from his apartment to his cathedral. there's one story he tells about

at the time he got kind of caught up in the way he lived. at one point a guy asked to talk to him. he was caught in in the things he was doing and he didn't stop. he got on the metro and he was going home and he realized. as the archbishop he realized he had to stop and take time for the people. we all remember when he was standing on the balcony and he was first presented, 2013, your new pontiff, pope francis. that kind of deer in the headlights look he had as there were hundreds of thousands of people in the square all looking at him with hope. and i truly think that moment he decided that this new person, with grace. in the catholic church we believe that this man has been given special grace. so he has a special grace to change into a universal pastor which has obviously shocked and amazed the world. >> as we bring in claudio deblanca.

we'll stay on this shot because we'll see the big suv procession and then the small fiat in which the pope wants to ride. you're outside the basilica where the pope will be speaking in 2 1/2 hours. how are the crowds? how is security. >> reporter: well, let me show you. look at this crowd. they are waiting for the pope even though they are not going to get into the basilica, but they know the pope likes to stop by, get off the pope mobile, cheer the crowds, kiss the babies and the disabled and speak to the people. he loves to do that more than anything else. now they are all waiting, this group. now it says here, i have one of them, i got it from them. it says here it's a pope emoji. to me it looks more like a lollipop, alex. >> i can't believe you went there, claudio.

there's a lack of reverence in your tone. we will be checking back in as i'm sure the crowds will be going with the pope's arrival in an hour and a half or so from now. for all of you, it is the top of the hour here at msnbc. i am alex witt. the pope is in the process of leaving new york city. he will leave behind a very healthy and ardent glow for those of us who have been covering him and who were able to see him. i think a lot of people's lives have been changed by his mere presence here, and we know that will be the same in philadelphia. nbc's kristen dahlgren has been positioned outside of where the pope stayed for the last couple of nights and he has left. what was that departure like, kristen? >> reporter: hey, there, alex. it comes with a whole lot of security. just a huge motorcade that moved out on the street behind me. the pope came out of the residence there. he was greeted by the cardinal

there and then he got into the fiat and the motorcade took off and took him to the heliport. he'll have an easy trip to the airport which new yorkers aren't used to. it's early saturday morning but the streets have been closed off. a few people were lining the streets trying to catch one last glimpse of the pope. tens of thousands of people have been able to see him over the past couple of days here in new york. last night a mass at madison square garden. more than 20,000 people got free tickets to that and they were able to see him and then yesterday afternoon between 80 and 85,000 people it's estimated were out at central park and lining the roadways there to try to catch a glimpse of him as he went by in the pope mobile. it really has been an exciting day or couple of days for new yorkers. he heads to philadelphia now where more than 1.5 million

people or so expected to see him over the next couple of days. that's an exhausting schedule for anyone, alex. so one of his aides was asked last night how he's doing. people were noticing that he got around madison square garden in a golf cart. they said that was prearranged, that he is tired, but that's not unexpected. he's 78 years old. they say he does get tired but reassured everybody that he has plenty of energy for the next two days of this trip. >> kristen, to me it just sounds efficient getting him around there in that cart. i mean, why make him walk through the crowds that way as well. thank you very much, kristen dahlgren from the upper east side of manhattan. elizabeth, my question, does this pope enjoy traveling, do you know? >> apparently this pope does not enjoy traveling. in his theater of action from a young priest, bishop to cardinal, his theater of action stayed pretty much restrained with the apparent begrudging trip to rome.

so, again, this tremendous transformation he had to make from someone who goes against his natural inclination. by the way, a natural inclination that's been in place for 76 years because that's how old he was when he became pope. an inclination to a little bit more of a quiet life, inclination towards more kind of just staying in the neighborhood. but i think what he did, i think the way he saw this, and i remember thinking this in the first days in rome when you saw him getting the hang of being a pope, instead he lived his life as a parish priest, then in a little town, then in buenos aires and now he's the parish priest of the whole world. he's trying to be the parish priest in every single continent he goes to. >> father o'brien, i'm going to ask you a question there since you are in washington and you'll understand the relationship. look, we are in the throes of a presidential campaign for election next year, and there are people who throw their hat in the ring to become president of the united states because they seek it, they want it.

with regard to becoming pope, is this a man who ever expressed interest in wanting to become pope? do the different cardinals and archbishops, do they make -- i mean, how political is it to say, i want to be pope? and of those who express that, how many actually become pope? >> right. i would say very few would -- whoever ambition to such an offer. especially in modern times. ambitioning to an office would disqualify you. whenever you get together there's politics because it deals with relationships. there's no evidence that this pope or recent popes ambitioned for this office. it is a demanding one. it's one that one is called or summoned to. in the catholic church we believe that the holy spirit, that god calls us to his office. and the conclave, the group of cardinals that selects the bishop of rome, the pope, really

is open -- is -- opens itself to be guided by the spirit of god to choose the best person for the time and for that particular moment in history. by all accounts, dr. lev can attest to this as well, that he had no plans to stay in rome. he thought it would be a quick trip to rome for the conclave. he was planning to go back home. so we have to remember that he has not been home to argentina since he was elected a few years ago. he still has not been home an it's ironic because jesuit priests, they were the first missionary order in the catholic church. i'm a jesuit priest. we like to say, our home is the road. what's remarkable, he mostly stayed in argentina. he did not travel much. i find it iconic that now at this age of 76, 77, 78 he is one of the most well-traveled

jesuits i know. >> elizabeth, does the pope have, i jesguess, jurisdiction r his own schedule? can he say, i would like to go home? >> he can, of course. he's the pope. of course there are things in this united states schedule that have been put in with his insistence. so the -- >> the school? >> visiting the school was very important. there's things he said, the ground zero monument. things he said, why isn't this on the schedule. the holy father makes decisions not from, well, i really miss having panatas in buenos aires. he doesn't make decisions based on his desires anymore. he has put himself entirely at the service of the one who sent him as it were. he's put himself to the service of the church so he goes where he thinks the church needs him. so really you see in every single day a self-sacrifice even just getting up and going

through his daily schedule in rome. >> i'm going to ask you to sit tight as we go to philadelphia. msnbc's casey hunt is at independence hall. is it hundreds or thousands that will be gathered behind you, casey? >> reporter: thousands, alex. what you're seeing behind me are chairs for people who managed to secure an actual seat. they are arriving later because they have a marked area, they know they can sit down. what you can't see is the sprawling independence mall that's in front of me. already i would say there were thousands of people here. we were talking to some people in the crowd. they've come from as far as away as los angeles, the dominican republic. people are waiving a banner from costa rica. many of them started this journey, they were online getting these tickets. right away those tickets sold out in about five minutes or less. some of the people here were telling us. then they got up extraordinarily early. one pair of college kids that i

think were the first people to arrive walked three miles from where they're staying with their friends in south philadelphia to get here at about 7:00 a.m. to wait more than eight hours to see the pope very briefly here on independence hall -- here at independence hall. i should say, this comes with a lot of american symbolism. this is where the declaration of independen independence, the constitution were signed. the podium that the pope is going to be using is the same one that abraham lincoln used to give the gettysburg address. a lot of very old symbols of the country here. we're expecting the pope to talk about immigration and religious freedom when he's here. at that point there may be as many as 50,000 people in this crowd. that's how many tickets were given out. i will say, immigration reform in particular is something that's very clearly important to a lot of people who are here. they're singing, chanting in spanish. i talked to one little girl, her parents didn't speak english. she did. she told me that in particular is something that her mother and

her father really wanted to come and see this pope have him bless them because they felt he was going to make a difference for immigrants in this country, alex. >> it's important to make a distinction between what you said, independence hall, independence mall. part of that benjamin franklin parkway area. that's where the difference of maybe 50,000 behind you to what is it, 1.5 million. go ahead. >> it is. it's extraordinary. we're expecting the pope will be here at 4:00 in the afternoon. he'll address the crowd. we're in a separate secure area than the secure area where the parade will be. the pope will move from this event over to the benjamin franklin parkway where he's expected to hold a parade and then give an address to as many as 1 million people, alex. so we're already seeing as we left that secure area early,

early this morning. we're seeing people go through the magnatometers. it is extraordinarily secure over there. while you don't necessarily have to have a ticket, getting into that area is way harder than getting on to an airplane in the u.s. you don't have to have an i.d. but they're going through people's things, there are barricades for some cases blocks at a time for people to try to get in. i did talk to one man who lives two blocks from where we are. he's a philadelphia resident. active in interfaith issues. he was describing how many of the people who live in his apartment building have gone down the shore, they've gone away this weekend. many philly residents throwing up their hands saying, we don't want to deal with the mess that is downtown. >> yeah, well, they can catch it on television, but in some sense they do also sort of miss this very difficult aura difficult as it may be to move around. >> yes. >> msnbc's casey hunt. glad you are in place where you

are supposed to be. >> so am i, alex. >> for all of you, we have watched the pope's security detail and that very special fiat arrive there at the wall street heliport. the pope will be exiting the fiat getting into the sikorsky getting to philadelphia shortly. elizabeth, it struck me that new york city and the area in which this pope has stayed, he was in a very tony section of the upper east side of manhattan where real estate prices and evidence of wealth really suggest a much different lifestyle and i guess approach to life than this pope has ever offered. is that not lost on him? it's almost as if the upper east side became very calming, if you will. i don't think that's the right word but i hope you understand. >> i do. when pope francis was elected and he first announced his name st. francis, for st. francis of assisi.

there's a lot of thoughts of, ah, yes, he's going to address issues of poverty. pope francis in his first address also mentioned the problem of spiritual poverty. he does harp on this. you may have everything. you may be able to walk in and out of all of the stores, but inside you have nothing. i think it isn't actually the beautiful symbol that he comes into this space, he comes into this place and he brings riches that are in the catholic sense far, far greater than any of the beautiful trinkets that you see in the store windows. >> there is that phrase, you can't buy happiness. i would like to bring in don borelli who will be speaking about security which actually can be bought. i wonder what the cost, the price tag, don, for keeping this pope safe. something that is astronomical. have you any idea on those statistics? >> alex, good morning. i have no idea on the statistics, but i can tell you there -- there are thousands of

security officials from multiple agencies that have been working on this long before the pope arrived. they had a large tabletop exercise in preparation for this that was hosted by nypd with i believe close to 50 agencies all having some type of role in security. you can imagine the amount of resources. you certainly can. i was talking with colleagues here. certainly in new york city and washington, d.c., we are used to having officials. the u.n. is regularly held here with global leaders, the president and the like. washington, d.c., goes without saying. philadelphia, not so much, and not at all to undermine philadelphia's ability to keep the pope safe, but what kind of challenges did that present for the city of brotherly love? >> it is, like you said, this happens all the time in new york. we have the u.n. every year, multiple visits, washington, d.c., the same thing. i think philadelphia is up for the challenge. they've been able to learn with what transpires from new york

and washington, d.c. there's a lot of degree of coordination between all of the cities so it's somewhat uniform and coordinated at a national level. so while they don't have this type of event very often, i think they're, you know, quite well-prepared. >> absolutely. how much does the vatican security and those people that travel with the pope, how much do they have to work in concert or do they i guess hand over the reins to the new york whether it's secret service or police or federal agents that are keeping on top of things? who's in charge? >> well, there are a lot of people in charge. in the u.s. the secret service is the lead agency for protecting the pope and other, you know, officials that come in from various countries, but it's a coordinated effort. i mean, the pope has his own security detail. they know the way he likes to do things. they have their own, you know, methodology. secret service is involved, but of course nypd has so many

resources that are brought to bear. remember, there are other agencies involved, state department, port authority, fbi. i mean, there are a lot of people that have a role in this, and that's why you have to have so much coordination and communication back and forth. >> and the pope when he heads to philadelphia, that entire area has basically been cordoned off and it's being called, i think, a frozen zone? is that the only way when you're talking about 1.5 million people attending a mass, is that the only way to, i guess, best ensure safety and security? >> i think the best way to ensure security is to have multiple layers of security. of course you have those physical barriers that, you know, control movement where people are allowed to be screened and that type of thing but also remember that there's a lot of intelligence and planning that goes in behind the scenes. almost a month ago a young man was arrested in philadelphia for plotting against the pope. now by all accounts that plot was aspirational and not a real

threat, but you need that intelligence to figure out, you know, who could present a problem to you? what are your threats? and then come up with a plan to either get those people off the street or at least have them under surveillance. so you need lots of things going on at the same time in addition to those physical security barriers. >> yeah. i'm bringing back elizabeth leven to our conversation. does this pope ever express concerns about his safety and security? >> he doesn't. i think he does have a concern about the safety of those around him. obviously his -- his love of waitid wading into the crowd and he has a certain level of concern. and also the tremendous responsibility of the host country, i think that's been -- that's been kind of clear in this visit, that pope francis has a lot of respect for the incredible work that the united states has had to do to arrange the security. for his own person i read a

wonderful piece. he kind of things that maybe he could be a martyr if it doesn't hurt too much. he doesn't like physical pain. he's actually spoken about the possibility of his own martyrdom and he speaks of it fearlessly. >> fearfully? >> fearlessly. he speaks of it as something that he is peaceful. he knows he's doing the wilf god, what he's supposed to do, and if that is interrupted abruptly by someone of some agent of this earth, he knows he's already got a place in the next world. >> that's interesting. well, the preparation has been extraordinary. john, our colleague, kate snow spoke with the commissioner of police in philadelphia earlier this week and talked about his plans to keep the city safe. well, i thought we had a sound bite of that. you know what, we're going to hear from him himself. here it is. let's roll it. >> working on it for a period of time, but it is a national special security event which

does put the secret service in charge of the overall planning but we've actually worked very well together. we're looking forward to the visit. we don't for see any particular problems. we want to get past this. >> don, it's been expressed that this city has been crawling with security and that they've been everywhere, even in places that we have not seen or i know that some of my colleagues have expressed about that they had camera angles and positions that wouldn't be afforded to the average citizen and they have seen an incredible presence of security. how thick a blanket do you think is in evidence right now in philadelphia? >> yeah, absolutely. they do have so many resources that are being brought to bear on this with security, that's seen security, unseen, command posts with multiple agencies talking back and forth and then a lot of specialty assets that have been prepositioned, things

like explosive detection units, units that can handle weapons of mass destruction. all of these type of things. these are worst case scenarios but these are all things you need to have ready and available. >> all of you know what we are looking at here. it is 21 past the hour of 8:00 a.m. here on the east coast. the pope will be leaving in the helicopter. we believe he is on board. we have seen the security detail and his black fiat which was much beloved in the cities of new york and had its own twitter hashtag as a matter of fact. he'll be taking off for a very short flight from jfk airport where he will get aboard a plane and fly to philadelphia. now the concern here is 21 past the hour he was supposed to be wheels up, let's see, at 8:00 a.m. so this is going to put things back just a little bit. they may be able to make up time in places, but this is a pope who doesn't want to be hurried along. he wants to say thank you to everyone. we saw him when he was saying

good-bye to everyone in new york city. he was saying thank you to everyone. i'm curious, elizabeth, what you think his sentiments will be when he leaves this beautiful place where there will be deafening roars and the crowd appreciating him everywhere he went. i mean, 12, 15 people deep in central park. i personally have not seen anything quite like that. you have concerts here, you have big parades, thanksgiving day parade just adjacent to central park. i've not seen anything like this where it was just this glow of joy. >> he never visited the united states before. and i don't think he knew americans very well. he didn't really know the citizens of the united states very well. i don't think he had much of a sense of what we're like and how we are, and i think he was dazzled. i think as much as we have fallen in love with him, he has fallen in love with us. to see him amazed at the sea of

faces, not just the children, but the faces of the adults and the people all dressed up, busy with places to go, stopping and looking towards him and looking at him. i think the encounter in both ways has been a truly amazing experience, both for us but also for him. >> absolutely. it has brought tears to many of our eyes as we watched him in the way, his effect when he touches people. father o'brien, i want to talk about maybe we'll play the video maybe in a partial part of the screen. we do want to keep our eye on that sikorsky chopper that looks to be taking off imminently. father o'brien, when the pope touched a child last night at madison square garden, this was a child that had special needs clearly and you saw the father break down and cry and the mother break down and cry at the joy of this pope. the healing that he has, there are children who believes he has healing powers, absolutely. if not physical, certainly spiritual.

speak to that. >> no, he would be the first to dismiss that he has healing power. i think he would acknowledge at first it's the lord that heals and he would acknowledge that he or any of us, any of us could be a source of healing for other people and so one of his constant refrains is to empower people like you and me and all your listeners to be agents of mercy, agents of healing in this very broken and beautiful world. on this trip to fillphiladelphi can speak of the big crowds that will be there. there will be two groups of people he will focus on in philly. one will be he'll be meeting with migrants and immigrants to this country and undocumented persons and secondly, tomorrow, he'll visit a prison or a jail. again, that matches his visit to the school in harlem. it matches his visit to a homeless community here in washington, d.c. as we -- as he has surrounded himself by privilege, by people of power and going to the seats of power in this country, this

world on this trip, he has balanced that with a very down to earth outreach to those people who i think are most dear to him because they're most dear to jesus. all those people in the margins and the peripheries who so desperately need some of the healing that not simply he can provide but we all can provide. so i think if there's some benefit to this trip, some miracle to happen, it's that millions of people are going to be inspired to make their -- the people in their lives just a little bit better. >> you're speaking about his visit as we watch that chopper take off from manhattan. there are probably a few tears being shed from those who enjoy the pope being here. he'll take off for jfk where he'll board a plane and fly to philadelphia. you're speaking about the correctional facility he'll be visiting. our president visited a correctional facility. it's my understanding, those who

live at this all male facility, they are good at furniture manufacturing. they've made a chair to present to the pope. what does he do with items like that? >> you know, actually, i don't know. my guess is they're preserved in the home city to be a memory of the trip so i don't exactly know, but i think, you know, he and the president are on the same page not simply on immigration reform but also on prison reform and in insistence on restorative justice which in the last decade has emerged as an alternative to mass incarceration. that is a system of justice that is based on healing the victim and restoring relationship between the victim and those who may have hurt the victim or their family to give punishment where punishment is due. and to give reparation. every visit the pope makes to any of these, whether humble

locations or the seats of power are tinged with the political. let me just -- there's been some questions about why is the pope talking about politics so much? why is he talking about debt relief, immigration reform, or prison reform as they will in philadelphia? why is he talking about these things. and this pope says what other popes have said before, that anything, any policy, any action that affects the dignity of the human person is the church's concern. so he does not hesitate to speak on behalf of any human being whose dignity is threatened. and he will promote the dignity of all human beings. >> all right. thank you for that, father. and want to give all of you a look at jfk airport, the tarmac specifically where the pope will be greeted by the throngs there as he heads up to the plane and takes off to philadelphia. i want to go to philadelphia right now. kathleen sproes cummings,

assistant professor at notre dame. she's in philadelphia. what do you expect to see today? first of all, where are you positioned? >> good morning, alex. i am right in front of the stage for the world meeting of families. it's really extraordinary to remember that this is the reason he's coming. when we look at all the exhilarating moments so far in this visit, the whole reason he scheduled this trip is for this. so in a sense this is the big climax, and everyone here is so excited. it's been a wonderful morning so far, but it's hard to believe that he's going to top everything he's done so far, but i think he will. >> let's talk about this families congress. it was something,s a i understand, that was instituted by pope john paul ii. it happens every three years. a couple of times it's been in rome. this is the first time it's been held in the united states. anything special to the timing of that? >> that's exactly right. it's the first time in the united states. it's in philadelphia. and it was announced in 2012 that it would be in

philadelphia. and it was pope benedict, actually, who promised that he'd be here, so pope francis was fulfilling a promise made by his predecessor to be here, and the entire visit was scheduled exactly around this. >> and how many people are expected there? 1.5 million people? >> 1.5 million. >> okay. in terms of chairs, how many chairs are there? >> i can't -- a lot. i see a lot. i think it's also interesting, this is philadelphia, a city that's not used to these big crowds for these big events in the way that washington, d.c., and new york are. so this has been -- this has just been a big planning event and i think it's going to go splendidly. it's taken philadelphia a little bit out of its comfort zone. >> kathleen, one thing about this event, i mean, certainly the pope welcomes young, old, families, anyone into his midst when he's preaching there in rome, but this is an event

specifically designed for what? it is to address family units? is that what it is? >> world meeting of families to address a host of issues that are related to the family. they were 2r56talking about fams and to celebrate families. that was an added bonus. it certainly added a level of excitement. >> i'm curious, kathleen, in your role with notre dame, how excited are your students when you were talking with them? how many have traveled from south bend? >> well, listen to this. students at notre dame are so excited that eight bus loads of them are giving up watching the

notre dame game tonight, the home game, that's big, to get on a bus and drive all night and get here at 8:00 in the morning. they'll spend all day getting ready for the big event, the mass at the parkway, and get back on the bus sunday night and are expected to attend class monday morning. that's devotion. when i talked to many of the pilgrims coming here, the students, i said, why are you coming? what's drawing you? they're so excited about pope francis. many of them said if they can talk to him, they want to say thank you for engaging them. it's wonderful to see how this pope is rejuvenating the millennials who are the future of the church. so i think it's wonderful that they're so excited. for those back on campus i know there are going to be a number of pope watches. at notre dame we have a lot of game watches. this week there have been a lot of pope watches. >> it will be a busy week end any way you look at it.

>> yeah. >> kathleen, thank you very much. i'm sure we'll be checking in with you again. i want to let you all know to the left of the screen what you are seeing, you are seeing the security, detail, if you will, in addition to the pope's helicopter. that sikorsky which is frequently identified as marine 1 when president obama is on board. that has been given to him to ease his travel from manhattan to jfk, get a little bit above the crowds here. these are the ospreys that will be following. they are a very unique kind of helicopter. they can fly in a helicopter formation, they can fly in a fashion that would have it more look like an airplane, but the pope is a little bit running late today. he was supposed to have already been at jfk, although this will facilitate things to get him there more quickly than he would have by car. i want to welcome to our conversation, george weigle, senior analyst and friend. it's nice to see you here in person. >> good to see you. >> put this trip into context. you're always so good at that. in comparing this pope with

previous popes that you and i have covered and his effect on the american people. >> i think pope francis's effect in creating an extraordinary feeling of warmth in washington and new york has been quite remarkable. it's not that his predecessors didn't do that, it's that it seems to be even more electric this time. kathy cummings is exactly right, that what we are going to see today and tomorrow is the whole point of this trip or at least major point of this trip. you've heard hints of it before, like john paul ii, like benedict x xvi, pope francis is concerned about the state of marriages and families. he's concerned about women abandoned by irresponsible men, he's concerned about the divorce rate throughout the western world. he's frankly concerned about the redefinition of marriage in some

parts of the world. why is he concerned about all of this? it's not just a matter of making catholic arguments, it's a matter of his concern that this breakdown in the fundamental human institution is making for an extraordinary amount of unhappiness, that people are hurting deeply because of this. so i think today and tomorrow we are going to hear a ringing reaffirmation of the church's understanding of the beauty of the vocation of marriage, the beauty of the family as what john paul ii called the first school of freedom. this is where we learn how to be responsible adults, how all those beautiful 2-year-old tyrants were when we were 2 years old learn how to be civil, decent, tolerant human beings, and he'll lift up the holy family, jesus, mary, and joseph as the model of the family for the future. >> i'm thinking back to when you

were with us in april of '08 when his predecessor was here at saint patrick's, pope benedict, and it was a different tenor to things. certainly there was the glory and the adoration for the pope's stance. i think my observation, can you tell me, when he's in repose he had a more stern appearance. i remember watching his face get up and light up and lift him up. that's when you felt like he was perhaps approachable. otherwise, he was a man much different in his discipline, wasn't he? he was an intellect, a scholar, correct? >> he was a very shy, not liked to be in situations where he was expected to be a performer. the papacy has become over the past 3 1/2 decades a job a job

where peter has to be a public personality. i think we've commented on this, no one expected cardinal bergolio to be this electric public personality. he simply wasn't that in buenos aires. but the grace of the office, if you will, has obviously touched him. what i remember most about that 2008 trip, alex, you may remember this, too, is that the extraordinary sermon of benedict xvi inside saint patrick which then was a darker place than this magnificent renovation -- >> gorgeous, yeah. >> -- and he talked about sometimes a church looks dark and forbidding from outside but when you come inside the light comes through. the light comes through the stained glass windows and it lifts the heart. i think we saw that all this week in a much more available, if you will, obvious icon in

saint patrick's. this is a -- this is a -- an institution which exists to foster what christ called the attitude. human happiness. the fulfillment of human aspiration. and all popes try to do that. that's part of their ministry as pastors. but this pope seems to have a singular way of communicating. the wish of christ in the church that everyone live in the nobility of which they are capable of god's grace. >> your description of pope benedict and, elizabeth, your previous description of this pope as being the shy man who did nothing to seek this office and then father o'brien had child in and said that, you know, those who do seek it usually are not going to be the ones to get it. it's so interesting to me. i sort of juxtapose the ability

of the pope to relate to everybody around the world and have an influence to some degree, whether catholic or not, but his message has spread, and then you have that of the president of the united states which is completely the antithesis. you have to throw your hat in the ring. you have to want it more than anything. and in some ways the papacy allows the pope to supersede that which the man who is -- potentially woman down the road, you never know, but they've always said the president of the united states is the most powerful position on earth. i don't know, i think that can be challenged by the effect of this pope, don't you think? >> i think we're dealing with something that is a little bit greater than having your hands on, you know, mighty weapons at the touch of a finger. it's a spiritual power. it's awe power to uplift people. it's a power to turn their heads and convince them without force, without wealth, without beauty, without -- you know, none of the trappings that we're usually

attracted to are here. it's reaching people on a far deeper level. i think a fascinating aspect of pope francis is that his favorite document, his go-to document, how to be a parish priest, was written by pope paul vi apostolic exhortationist. it announces the gospel. in that letter pope paul vi in 1975 identified that we have moved beyond words. man has moved beyond words and explaining and talking at him doesn't really help. they are now in an era of images. what we thought it was has francis left so many people in washington, new york city, soon to be philadelphia, images. images of him holding children, the tiny baby with the huge father who breaks out in tears because someone recognizes his struggle, images of these smiling faces of children. this is what he understands. >> i'm curious, father o'brien, i understand you're with us, chaplain in residence at

georgetown university, is there an afterglow effect? might new york experience that as well? do you feel washington during these two days while the pope was there, has it been touched in a way that you're still feeling the effects of him? >> oh, absolutely. you know, it's similar to what happens after a presidential inauguration where everyone has a great hope, everyone thinks that everything is going to be different and people are filled with great hope and openness to other people. it's that type of inaugural feeling amplified exponentially. i think within the church, and we spoke earlier about young people at notre dame, i'm feeling the same at georgetown and my colleagues elsewhere at other jesuit universities feel this is an important moment for the church to reach out to young people. and this pope loves reaching out to young people. he can speak to them with words and images that really matter. and he will often talk about two book ends. he'll speak about the elderly as those who can offer us the gift

of wisdom and then he'll speak of the young who can give us the gift of hope and i think this pope has inspired us to hope more. and let me just speak to your -- georgia's comment about the church and its role today. there's a couple of images that pope francis has used, which i think are very helpful. he has spoken about the church as a field hospital, that is, a field hospital which tends to people's wounds and so everyone within the church has got goad people to heal them. he has spoken recently in a homily on this trip, he spoke about the church as a home fire. the church is a home which is to be warm and welcoming to people. and finally he has fused the image of a church with not just simply open doors but a church that leaves the sanctuary of the church and goes out to the streets to meet people where they are at and to risk getting

our hands dirty a bit and our knees bruised to help people who are in need. and those are images that inspire a lot of people, but i think particularly the young, alex. >> okay. george? >> it's important to remember, alex, that everything father kevin just said is, i think, in the pope's mind ordered to what he calls a church permanently in mission. one of the most striking things pope francis has said in these past 2 1/2 years is that he is deeply fearful of the church becoming simply another nongovernmental organization. the church goes out into the streets, the church meets people where they are, the church celebrates the eucharist as was done so magnificently at madison square garden last night, in order to invite people into friendship with jesus christ. that's what the church is for. and that's what pope francis is about. he said at the very beginning of

his pontificate that he wants the church to get out of institutional maintenance mode and back into missionary mode. >> and do you think institutional mode rather than missionary mode, do you think that is responsible for many catholics, if not leaving the church altogether, becoming rather apathetic, lack of attendance? i mean, the numbers have been extending that way? >> i think, alex, that phenomenon, whether we're talking about western europe, which is becoming a religious desert, or a quite healthy local church like the church of the united states with vibrant parishes and whatnot, people drift away because they drifted away from christ. they haven't met him with sufficient passion. you go to church on sunday not to fulfill an obligation but to

celebrate this relationship with the lord, and when that dries up, when catholicism only gets transmitted through a kind of ethnic transmission, i'm a catholic, my grandmother was a catholic and came from guadalajara or poland or ireland or whatever, that doesn't work in the 21st century. in 2007 the pitch shops of latin america led by cardinal bergolio of buenos aires issued an historic document. it was there for 500 years, very closely tied to state power, the bishop said, there is no future in that. there is no future in that. the only future is in a personal encounter with christ, and the only way christ is encountered

is if he is offered. and that's why the church has to turn all of those institutions into launch platforms for missions. >> well, as we now see that the pope has arrived at jfk he will be disembarking there from what we call marine 1 when the president is aboard and he will be boarding that flight, a very short flight to philadelphia. that is where my colleague, nbc's stephanie gosk has been standing by. stephanie, i guess it's me giving you the official heads up that the pope is running late it looks by about at least 15 minutes at this point but it could be a good half an hour, which means anybody who's hoping to encounter the pope is also going to be a bit behind schedule. but security there still remains very, very tight. let's talk about the tenor of things in the city of brotherly love with you, stephanie. >> reporter: you know, i think people here don't mind waiting a few. they're in it for the long haul. we've been talking about security all week. this is the tightest that we've

seen it so far. effectively the center of philadelphia is in lockdown, completely shut off. it is like an open air pedestrian walkway filled basically with pedestrians and some food trucks and lots of law enforcement. federal, state, local. it really is an incredible operation. what you see behind me, one of the many checkpoints that allow people into what they call the black zone, which is the zone closest to the pope who goes through magnatometers. every bag will be checked. there are a number of items not allowed in, things like selfie sticks, coolers, more obvious things like drones. no drones can be flown anywhere near philadelphia this weekend all because this event tonight and tomorrow, the mass, are going to be the biggest events that we've seen so far this week. the biggest crowds that we've seen so far this week, and also for the city of philadelphia,

which is used to crowds in the half million to 700,000 range, that crowd size is going to double for them. you can imagine the city a bit on edge and obviously the people that live here telling us over and over again they have never seen anything like it. >> yes. >> alex? >> and may never again. my goodness, as we talk about this thing as the most detailed security operation in u.s. history. elizabeth, who are the people that travel with the pontiff? >> i'm looking around, i see a whole bunch of my friends at st. peter's basilica. this is the vatican is protected by the vatican city of state is protected by two different types of security. this is guards that everybody knows with the colorful outfits. they deal with the personal care of the pope. there are a couple of guards who travel with him. but the day-to-day actual security of the city of the vatican is entrusted to the

jean damarie, the vatican police force. you have some of the most senior members standing around pope francis. and also you have the right-hand man for security, someone who's become over this trip, you see him more than just the head of security, he speaks with an intimacy. dominico jon ne. >> he is greeting those there. i'm going to pick up on something and give a personal anecdote. when you say you are seeing all of your friends. elizabeth is not exaggerating. i had the pleasure a handful of years ago going to the vatican and spending the day with my son and elizabeth. what i was most shocked by until i learned about her history, literally walking through the entrance door through to where we would begin looking at the wonderful art and artifacts, every security officer, every concessionaire, they were all saying hello to elizabeth i

said, my goodness, you know everybody. well, yes, my mother happens to be the u.s. ambassador to the vatican. funny moment. oh, yes, well, that explains it. george, those that travel with the pope, they have to be very, very noble. their schedule is built around his. how many are there to actually help him? what kind of a not just security detail but assistants, who are those? >> the cardinal's secretary of state who is the senior figure always travels with the pope abroad. in this the substitute, which sounds like somebody far down the food chain but in fact he's the pope's chief of staff, giovanni antonio batu has been on this trip. he's the little guy you see in the casick with the red sash. paul bishop is the english man

who is the vatican foreign minister met with secretary of state kerry at the white house when the pope met with president obama. he's always on these trips. this pope, interestingly enough, does not have a powerful personal secretary. in the previous four or five or six pontificates i would say the pope's personal secretary was the go-to guy for a lot of stuff. this pope rotates two men in and out daily, one in argentine, the other an egyption, a coptic catholic egyptian. i haven't seen either one of them on this trip. liz may have seen them. so that's a bit different from the past. you have of course here cardinal dolan of new york, bishop nick dimartsio. i think i see bishop murphy of

rockville center. so the local catholic bishops. but those are the keogh figures alls who travel with the pope because while your pope is doing all these remarkable things we've been seeing, there are also serious discussions going on as there were in the white house, perhaps less so in the congress, but i'm sure at the u.n. yesterday, and this is an opportunity for a little face-to-face with the pontiff. >> those things you're talking about, are they lifelong appointments? no. >> some have been with pope benedict or is there a total changing of the guard? >> it can -- it can continue across pontificates. cardinal perilyn was named secretary of state nine months into the pontificate. the pope had a little trouble getting up the step there. >> he's carrying something. my goodness. this is the kind of thing you think about. what can you do? he probably insisted on carrying

his own bag. >> he's got a bit of a back problem and that flares up from time to time. it looks like he's in good mu who are. cardinal perilyn was made secretary of state nine months into the pontificate. archbishop gallagher so called has only been in that jobless than half a year. the chief of staff has been there for about two years and it really depends on the pope and his relationship with them how soon these men rotate out, although the cardinal's secretary of state tends to stay there for a while. >> i'm curious because when we see the president going on board air force 1 there will be a group of reporters traveling with him. >> sure. >> there will be someone, if not the president, certainly the press secretary will go and have a gaggle as we call it with reporters. does the media travel with this pope? is he comfortable speaking directly with the media? >> there's a -- there's a scrum. >> scrum. >> in the back of the bus so to speak, the back of the plane. >> that's where we belong.

>> this is what father lombardi, another figure you often see with the pope, the papal spokesman, this is what has turned his hair very gray over the last 2 1/2 years is the pope likes to do these give and takes with reporters, particularly on the flight home to rome. so there's always news being made, and even though we'll say good-bye to pope francis tomorrow night, father lombardi will go working into monday morning because there's an interesting article in "national geographic" recently. it prominently featured father lombardi. he said, this is a very different guy. i would go to see pope benedict after he met with some world leader, we talked about their following things. we agreed on five things, we disagreed on two. we agreed we were going to keep talking about three, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. pope francis says, i met him.

he's an interesting person. and evidently after one of these press conferences there was some confusion about something or other. father lombardi went to the pope and said, what did you mean? they got that sorted out. so lombardi said every time i go in to see him now he begins by saying, what did i do now? what did i say now? >> that's funny. john bore real borelli, i want you back in. once this plane is up and it's wheels up, immediately those in philadelphia get on all hands on deck type of alert but, in fact, that has been the case for a long time, has it not? >> absolutely. there's been so much planning and preparation. yeah, i think the pulse rate of

everybody on the ground is starting to rise. the people that have finished their task in new york are breathing a sigh of relief and the plane's wheels up. >> i'm looking at the time line here. it was supposed to be wheels up at 8:55. it will probably be another five or so before those stairs are taken away and the plane is able to taxi down the runway and head into the sky. how much does that challenge security operations or not at all? >> there's so much communication back and forth. the schedule got off early this morning so they've already baked that into the schedule at this point.

there's a lot of coordination and communication. could the crowds get antsy, things like that? people kind of get amped up waiting more time than necessary but for security people they'll work it out. there's so much coordination that it won't be a big deal. >> yeah, i'm sure. >> what is the biggest deal? both are expecting thousands upon thousands. is it the sheer presence or the number of people that affects the greatest challenge or is it location? >> well, i think it's both. when you have a location that's hard to firm up, that's a challenge. then you've got so many people. really the big challenge is there are so many things and

keeping the schedule. if there's a threat brewing in some portion of the city that everybody is in the loop. lines of communication are working together. the sheer number of people that can be managed, the real key that is all planning and preparation and communication that goes in way before the pope arrives. even though that's been done, everything should go off smoothly. >> father o'brien in washington, i want to ask you what you might suppose would have been this pope's greatest take away from the city of watching tongue. washington. >> that's a great question.

nchs the take away, with boehner's resignation, they should be pragmatic and find common ground. he bemoaned polarization, putting people into good and evil categories, the center and the righteous. what we speak about in politics is bipartisan or within the church collegiality and charity. what he left in washington is what i think he's leaving in new york and now in philadelphia, for us to really find common ground to -- and not -- not to demonize one another. and i think that's something that professional politicians need to hear and we in the church need to hear because if we -- and he said at one point on this trip, you know, people

are more important than positions. now as we get to people and positions, people are more important than positions. once you understand the person and you listen to them, it is thus possible to find some common ground. you can stand your own ground and state your position. it has to be in dialogue with someone else. in that dialogue, common ground is possible. and, again, we find the common ground in order to be helpful to people. >> right. father kevin o'brien, thank you for joining us the last couple of hours here. everyone, we've been on since 7:00 a.m. it is now approaching the top of the hour. i also thank my friends george weibalt, elizabeth lev. i'm sure all of your services will be employed as our special coverage continues. my colleague chris matthews will be taking us through the pope's arrival. i will see you again at 1:00 p.m. chris, a good morning to you.

>> good evening, i'm chris matthews in philadelphia this morning. thank you for joining msnbc's special pope francis in america coverage. you're looking at a live picture right now from john f. kennedy airport in new york where pope francis is on board the jet liner and getting ready to take off for here in philadelphia, not far away. he's going to touch down in philadelphia on day five of his whirlwind visit to the united states. today the pope will give a highly anticipated speech on immigration and religious liberty at independence hall. that will be his backdrop where both the declaration of course and the u.s. constitution were signed. he will speak at the very