good morning, everyone. i'm alex witt. welcome back to our special coverage of pope francis in america. at this hour, the pope has been meeting with prisoners at a correctional facility in philadelphia. we are looking at him as we bring you live pictures following his address to some 150 or so inmates there inside of the curran-fromhold correctional facility in philadelphia. he's making his way to others that have been brought in, those who work within the facility and family members that were brought in for this very, very special occasion. of course, this pope has made much of wanting to have inclusion from all facets of society, much of his papacy has been addressing that issue. he will be leaving here and

moving to a small office adjacent to this gymnasium which was transformed. he'll be meeting with 30 or so correctional officers. and speaking with them about the job they do and the hope for education within the prison system and helping to afford futures to these men inside the correctional facility for when they get out and hope to change their lives in a positive way moving forward. let's listen to little bit to what the pope said while addressing these inmates at the curran-fromhold correctional facility. we'll play part of that right now. >> translator: i stand belong you a pastor, a shepherd, above all, as your brother. to share in your plight and make it my own. i am here that we may join in prayer and bring before our god everything that causes us pain.

but to also bring everything that gives us hope. >> let's bring in will bunch, senior writer at "the philadelphia daily news." will, with a welcome to you, this is in your hometown, this correctional facility. what can you tell us about it terms of the type of prisoners that are held there? >> there are all types of prisoners. in fact it came out this week that pope francis is going to -- the list of approved guests include kd people accused of murder, rape. they haven't been tried or convicted yet in mose cat cases. majority of these inmates are people awaiting trial. in most cases bail has been set and these people are too poor to make bail so they end up staying in this prison awaiting an outcome on their charges for a long time. there's been a severe overcrowding problem in philadelphia's prisons for some

time. >> that's not a unique situation across this country. you wrote in advance of the pope's visit, will, that in an american city or county lockup, many prisoners shouldn't even be there. victims of a flawed system that locks people up for months who have not been convicted of a crime, simply are too poor to get bailed out. based on what you've seen of this pope thus far, do you think he's going to acknowledge this problem of just who goes to jail in this country? >> i think he's just made a powerful statement just now just by his presence. just by the fact that he put curran-fromhold prison as a stop on his schedule. we just heard his remarks and i think the message he was trying to say is that society is not focused enough on rehabilitation, on the basic question of how do we reintegrate these people in a society that we have a system that's too punitive. and the bail problem that i wrote about is part of that whole situation. a system that looks at ways to

keep people behind bars instead of how do we get people out into society being productive. these people who are in there for months at a time because they can't make bail, sometimes not always but sometimes on nonviolent charges like drugs or prostitution or that sort of thing. they lose their homes because they're not paying their rent. they va family relationships torn apart. the pope's entire purpose of being in philadelphia is to promote families and the strength of families and nothing tears families apart more than incarceration. >> we've been watching just some extraordinary photos here. can you imagine being someone who's locked up in a correctional facility and having the pope come and speak to you, and not only speak to you, he's walking among these prisoners. he's shaking their hands, allowing them to kiss his ring, to embrace him. give them warmth and smiles. let's listen right now as we have the pope address again.

[ speaking spanish ] >> the chair is beautiful. thank you very much for the hard work. thank you. . >> the pope was specifically referencing this chair. many of the prisoners inside the curran-fromhold correctional facility work in a couple of vocational training programs that includes a print shop that

produces material for city agencies but also a furniture around upholstery workshop and they initially when they get into that workshop they earn about 45 cents an hour, if you can believe that. but they crafted this nearly six-foot tall walnut throne, if you will, for pope francis. they also are going to be presenting him with a basket of fruit that was picked from the prison orchard. also an engraved plaque. it's been said the pope will need an awful large carry-on bag to take home everything he's been given on this trip. i want to get back to you and talk about the prospects of these men who get into these correctional facilities, and then look at this -- the magnificence of what's happening to them today. they've been able to speak with the pope one-on-one! so often throughout -- i mean what do you expect the cause and effect will be of this? >> well, i think a lot of what's happened today is just showing that these people have worth. you were just talking just now and showing pictures of the chair that these inmates --

>> which is beautiful, by the way. >> it is beautiful. right. and that's not our -- that's not the image that many of us have of people who are incarcerated. right? that these are seen as the worst of the worst, that they're labeled as unproductive. and yet here they produced this wonderful thing. that doesn't mean -- that's not to excuse the terrible things that some of them have done, in some cases, to put them there, but it does show i think that their worth as human beings is more complicated than the pigeon holes that we put these people in sometimes. and i think pope francis coming there is the same thing. i mean what strikes me as a philadelphiaen, we've had problems in philadelphia's prisons for several decades, overcrowding, inmate abuse, people there for too long. it is just hard for activists to get people to pay any attention to these issues. now here's pope francis, one of the most powerful and maybe most

revered figure on the planet, coming to pay attention to this problem that local officials too often have ignored. i think that's very powerful. >> i understand one of the terms -- i guess a lot of locals call that the "up on state road." they don't even refer to it as the curran fr-fromhold facility. >> it is an old industrial road that goes along the delaware river and northeast of the city. this is a road that used to be lined with factories. philadelphia used to be the workshop of the world, the big manufacturing city. and now like much of the country, we have prisons to lock people up. we have another prison in philadelphia called the house of correction that was built during the eeulysses s. grant facility.

they're debating what to do with it. but some of the conditions that these inmates have to experience is just not up to standard. >> also, will, remind our viewers the derivation of this name. >> in 1973, the warden and deputy warden of the facility, mr. curran and mr. fromhold. the early '70s was just a terrific time ofiolence in prisons. this happened two years after the attica revolt where i think about 41 people were killed. so these were very violent times in our prisons and the name curran-fromhold honors those two correctional leaders that were killed. this is a complicated issue. we don't want to write off the fact that there are some dangerous people in there. we don't want to write off the

fact that this can be a very difficult job for our correctional officers to keep order in these facilities. i mean i think they would want more modern facilities and less crowding as much, if not more, of the inmates. >> will, i welcome you into our conversation. i hope you'll stay with us and join us. george weigel, is our nbc news senior vatican analyst who's been with us throughout this last week pretty regularly. i want to speak to you about the make-up of the prison population. i understand it is one-eighth catholic. about one-third muslim. about one-third christian. 70% african-american. talk about the pope's ability to transcend as he seems to have done here. he speaks to christians, to jews, to muslims. i had early on my broadcast a jewish rabbi and an imam from a muslim mosque. they felt as moved as anyone by this pope's presence. >> the pope is doing what we have popes for. and that is to strengthen the

brethren. in the 22nd chapter of lushg's gospel jesus says to peter your job is to strengthen your brethren. when the pope met with bishops attending the world meeting of families in philadelphia, he was reflecting outloud in a very powerful way on what he said seemed to him to be the root of so many problems in contemporary society and that's loneliness. we're surrounded by large numbers of people. even these prisoners in prison. and yet there's a disconnect. so he is calling us to be present to one another in a way that summons up what's noble in the human heart. and in doing this, this is a sunday. it is not a bad day to reflect on the bible. he's doing exactly what he ought to be, what any christian ought

to be doing. if you're going to take seriously the junction of christ, as to how we're going to be judged, i saw you hungry and i fed you. you saw me thirsty and you gave me a drink. you visited me in prison. that's part of that famous text, too. so it is a kind of ministry of presence that lets people know they're not alone and that there are in fact bridges that can be built across divisions of religious conviction, across racial and ethnic divides. and his own manifest human warmth and decency is what allows that message to be communicated in a very powerful way. >> powerful indeed. all right. will bunch, senior writer for "the philadelphia daily news," thanks so much for helping us through this live coverage. we appreciate that. for all of you, we heeard earlier from the pope and he was

speaking in the chapel of st. martin. he held what was called an address of families. those are those who are involved spiritually and professional with the workings of the catholic church. he talked about sexual abuse victims. we'll talk more about that on the other side. you're watching msnbc. bring us your aching and sleep deprived. bring us those who want to feel well rested. aleve pm. the only one to combine a sleep aid... plus the 12 hour pain relieving strength of aleve.

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before the visit to the jail, the pope made remarks to 300 bishops at a chapel. there he condemned the sex abuse of minors by church officials. let's take a listen. >> translator: in my heart, these stories of suffer iing of those that were sexually abused,

and it continues to be on my mind, the people who had the responsibility to take care of these tender ones, violated that trust and caused them great pain. god weeps. for on the sexual abuse of children, these cannot be maintained in secret and i commit to a careful oversight that ensure that youth are protected and that all responsible will be held

accountab accountable. >> powerful words there. let's go to nbc's claudio lavanga. what do you think the significance of the pope addressing sex abuse on this trip and in front of that audience? >> alex, i think that's exactly the point. it is not only the message that's important it is where he delivered that message. now he delivered a mess am in front of 300 bishops saying that the crimes and sins of sexual abuse to minors cannot be kept a secret anymore. why? because there are different layers of the problem of sex abuse in the church, that is the catholic church. first of all of course is the perpetrators, the one that commit that crime, the priests that break the trust of the minors by abusing them. and then another layer is when the bishops or those who are in charge of the diocese or the archdiocese of the church where this crime has taken place keep that a secret. that has happened many times in the past and that is the point that the pope was making.

this pope -- around we need to remember -- what is done in the past now one year ago. well, in the last year he set up a tribunal in the vatican that will try and hold accountable the bishops that do not -- that keep this a secret, that do not address the problem of sexual abuse in their own archdiocese or a diocese. to the point that later last year the highest clergy, highest level clergy that was accused of pedophilia, polish archbishop who was accused of paying for sex with children while he was appointed to the dominican republic. he was defrocked, he was sent back to the vatican and put under house arrest and he was about to be put on trial in this tribunal but recently, about august, he died of heart attack before he could be tried. as you can see, this is a pope

that he's pushing the matter forward. he has created this tribunal. it is important to know who was there with him when he delivered that address. it was cardinal sean o'malley, in charge of the commission for the protection of minors. the biggest significance the fact that he delivered that message right there in front ever those bishops. >> claudio, thank you very much for weighing in on that. i'm joined now in studio in new york with george weigel, senior vatican analyst for nbc news. as kathleen cummings, professor of studies at notre dame. kathleen, first to you. we were talking yesterday about the eight bus loads of university of notre dame students that were coming to hear this pope. you are a teacher there. to what extent has this conversation been under way about sex abuse within the church? has that been suggest discussed in your classroom, and if so what's the reaction been?

>> we have discussed it and alex, those students arrived at 7:30 this morning after a night spent on a bus and are as excited -- you wouldn't believe how excited they are to be there. . >> i can imagine. >> yes. they're tired but i'm told they had pop-tarts for breakfast. yes, we do talk about that in my classroom. i teach about the history of religion in america and what it means to overlap as religious believers and members of a society. and i think here pope francis has done that so many times during his visits, built those bridges. he spoke yesterday at independence hall, the birthplace of american freedom, but speaking about a more radical freedom, the life dwoes devoted to the service of god. he talks about sin and forgiveness going together. he talks about mercy and judgment going together and he gives hope to that. we've talked over the last couple days about the historical

challenges for catholicism but for the last decade it has been the ramifications of this tragic abuse and the cover-up of abuse. and this is something that students are aware of and they want to understand how it fits in to the larger story of catholics in america. >> george, to you. i think you could say that while he did make this address specifically to those that were in his audience this morning, if you look at where he went immediately afterwards, he went to a correctional facility, a place where people have been convicted of any number of crimes. those would include crimes of sexual abuse of minors. is there a broader context here you think for his remarks? >> the pope underscored that in a very powerful way by meeting with abuse victims this morning between 9:00 and 10:00 i think it was. maybe it was between 8:00 and 9:00. those were victims not only of clergy but of abuse within the family which is where the overwhelming majority of sexual

abuse takes place in the united states and throughout the world, and abused by teachers which is another side of this problem that rarely gets discussed. so the pope was broadening the story line, if you will. and making us recognize that this problem of the sexual abuse of the young is a societal plague. it is not simply a plague within the catholic church. and indeed the catholic church has done more to address this over the past difficult 12 years than perhaps any other institution in our society. catholic institutions in america today are the safest environment for children in our country. and that needs to be recognized. and that needs to be maintained. so i think what the pope was saying to the bishops was, you had to make some tough calls. thank you for doing that. let's not take our eye off this particular ball. but by meeting with abuse victims who were abused within

their families, or by teachers, he was broadening the discussion in a very powerful way. >> it's intolerable, wherever it happens. >> it does connect to the prison visit in that we know in terms of what we might call the epidemiology of crime that people who are treated badly as young people tend to have real problems later in life. >> yes. over and over again you see that. >> and that is a huge part of the problem of crime in our country and in other countries. >> many of those people who commit the crimes have been victims themselves. so it is just the constant scourge in this endless cycle of victimization. kathleen, you mentioned the students that are there after their pop-tart breakfast, what's on their agenda? they've got a long day after being on a bus all night and this mass doesn't begin until 4:00 p.m. the pope won't be appearing until then. what are they doing to fill the time? >> well, they are -- they parked

by the stadium, took the subway down to the parkway. they got here. they're ready to go. they're excited. one student said i'm stoked for this pope. they can't wait. i think it is a great reminder that we've all been following all week. we've been here. but pope francis has said all along the most important event of this whole visit is the mass that will take place this afternoon. and so for the students who have just arrived, they're bringing that fresh excitement. they can't wait for the build-up. they're just wandering around. they're talking to people, they're talking about how exc e excited they are. they don't seem tired to me. they are a lot younger than i am, though. >> i know. the pope doesn't seem that tired today, either. looks like he got a great bit of risk. >> i hope he did. >> good for him. i'm sure i'll be speaking with you again in the next couple hours, kathleen. we'll take a short break. when we come back we'll look for

our friend, msnbc's kasie hunt, who is among the masses waiting for are this mass. we'll see if we can find her. from are thousands there already. we'll point a camera in her direction after a break. ♪ ♪ hp instant ink can save you up to 50% on ink delivered to your door ...so print all you want and never run out. plans start at $2.99 a month. ♪ the most affordable way to print. hp instant ink. hi mi'm raph. tom. my name is anne. i'm one of the real live attorneys you can talk to through legalzoom. don't let unanswered legal questions hold you up, because we're here, we're here, and we've got your back. legalzoom. legal help is here.

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approaching half past the hour, we'll go to philadelphia's grandest boulevard where the mass of the masses is happening. nbc's kasie hunt is out there. i was literally worried about finding you. i'm so glad you are there. it is a crowd growing by minute since the wee hours of the morning, apparently. including you being there. what's it like? >> reporter: you could easily get lost in this crowd. it's growing by the minute, as you say. there are thousands of people now here. they started getting here as early as 6:30 in the morning waiting here. i talked to a few young people from kansas city. take a listen.

>> my catholic faith is a huge deal to me. it is the most important thing in my life. and so coming to see the man that jesus christ put in charge of the church is a really cool like once in a lifetime kind of experience. the fact that i don't have to fly all the way to rome to do it is kind of night. it's been kind of ridiculous actually, just the atmosphere. especially when we first got here, we were told by locals, they drained the city. a lot of people didn't want to be here for this. it refilled it with everyone that's come to see the pope. jut of the atmosphere that everyone wants to help you and everyone wants to be nice is just incredible. >> reporter: we've heard that from everyone here, the crowd is so inclusive and interested in helping each other out. back here i think the found the most popular couple in all of this particular crowd. this is doug and julie. they are here from indianapolis. i think it is your hats that have drawn all the attention. can you explain your detigs to

ma decision to make these? >> we're both teachers. we were looking for a fun creative inexpensive way to show our support for pope francis and our catholic church. >> just poster board and duct tape? >> that's it. 33 cents between the two of us. >> have people taken selfies with you? >> we're the local celebrities of this section. >> what makes you so excited to see pope francis? what do you think makes him different? >> his connective with everyone. last night at the mass, or prayer service, he invite have had everyone to come to the mass today. he's like, oh, yeah, what time's mass tomorrow? he's just very human in everything he does. and it shows. and us as followers at the church, we're so appreciative of someone s someone like the pope. >> i teach middle school, i think especially at that age it is so important for them to hear his messages that we are about

the universe and about the universal church and being there for each other when we need that extra support. >> reporter: thank you so much for your time. alex, it's been hard for us to keep anyone back from them. i've actually been interrupted several times by people who have been trying to take their own photos with them. >> they've got to be a lot of fun. look at what they've written on the hat. i think the students in their classes are pretty clulucky. >> philadelphia has francis fever. thanks, alex. >> thank you. see you again. will the pope and his use of social media. who's helping him get his message out to the world. plus his message this morning about the downside to all of this. our cosmetics line was a hit. the orders were rushing in. i could feel our deadlines racing towards us. we didn't need a loan. we needed short-term funding fast. building 18 homes in 4 ½ months? that was a leap.

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welcome back to weekends with alex witt. pope francis on his final day in the u.s. met with victims of clergy sex abuse promising to

hold those responsible accountable. >> translator: in my heart, these stories of suffer iing of those that were sexually abused and that continues to be on my mind that people who had the responsibility to take care of these tender ones. violated that trust and caused them great pain. god weeps. >> nbc's anne thompson has more on that. anne, what a powerful statement from the pontiff. let's talk about who the victims were that the pope met with. >> reporter: well, there were three women and two men and they were victims not just of priests but also teachers and family

members. but i think really the most -- first of all, alex, this meeting was expected. we didn't know when it was going to happen but we always expected that somewhere along this trip in the u.s. that the pope would meet with sexual abuse victims just because of what the impact of the scandal had been on the catholic church and the still resounding effects of that scandal. he really has two audiences here to three audiences, i think, today as he held that meeting. first, the most important audience were those five people there who he spoke to and listened to as he said taking their stories into his heart. that's a very important audience. the next audience is to his fellow priests to say, you know, i understand the pain you have been through, i understand that you bear the burden of shame for what some of your brother priests have done, but then the third audience is is to the larger church and that's where

his promise that those who were responsible would be -- will be held accountable is very, very important. it's important because, first of all, survivors will tell you that it's not just enough to take -- to arrest and throw out the priests who actually did the abuse. they want the bishops and the cardinals and anybody who had any hand in moving abusive priests from one parish to another, which is something that happened a lot, unfortunately, in the '70s and '80s, they want those priests held accountable. and then secondly, they want to make sure it never happens again. and the only way you can do that is to make sure that everybody understands that this is not a problem that the catholic church is going to sweep under the rug anymore or look the other way. this is a problem that the catholic church is going to face, confront and do something about. and those are the promises you heard from francis this morning. >> and we hear from this pope in a more profound, direct, strong

way very clear in his convictions on what he wants to do, how he wants the church to take responsibility and handle this, if you will. does he have, anne, a stronger position from which to make these claims and these promises than previous popes? because when all of this was revealed and the scandal all came to light, he was never in the position of power as being pope. it's almost like it didn't happen under his jurisdiction sew may be the one to clean it up, if you will. >> reporter: well, i think the process was already under way and quite frankly, first it had to start at the local level. and that began. when the u.s. conference of catholic bishops instituted a zero tolerance policy, i believe it was in 2002, that was the first big step. but i also think that there have been critics who said francis has been very slow to move on this issue and to address this issue.

it wasn't until after a year into his papacy that he formed that committee to protect children that boston cardinal sean o'malley heads. and some people felt that was too slow. you have to remember that pope francis has an awful lot on his plate. there are a lot of things that different factions of the church think are wrong with the catholic church, starting with the bureaucracy in the vatican. and so he's had a lot to do. but i think the most -- the important thing here as i said is that, yes, i mean because he wasn't in power when the scandals broke, both in the u.s. and europe, that gives him -- he doesn't carry that baggage, if you will. but the other problem is that so many catholics have such great expectations of pope francis, the danger there is that whatever he does is not enough to live up to those expectations. but i think by meeting with victims today and then making that very strong statement about accountability, that goes a long

way to helping ease some of the fears that he isn't either serious enough or it isn't really high enough on his agenda for some people's liking. >> okay. anne thompson, thanks so much for joining us from philadelphia. i know it is a big day for you ahead as you have a long day but a day you will no doubt enjoy. >> thanks, alex. security surrounding the pope's visit has been extraordinarily tight. this afternoon's open air mass may pose the biggest challenge yet with a million people-plus expected to attend. earlier i spoke with the city's police commissioner on this issue and how police are handling such large crowds. >> careful planning. the mayor has been involved in this for several months now, along with a lot of other people that really have devoted a good deal of time toward planning and all the different agencies involved, and so forth. and even though a plan never goes 100% according to plan, this one came pretty close. and we've been able to, so far,

maintain a lot of peace and calm in the city. >> let's check in now with nbc's stephanie gosk who's right there on philly's benjamin franklin parkway. stephanie, yesterday it wasn't so bad. people didn't seem to mind. how about today? >> reporter: so far we haven't really heard anything negative. the people that you're seeing here that are flowing in, these are the people that haven't encountered the lines yet. they're being directed by volunteers in ornl shirts that are trying to get them to the shortest lines. we saw one of the checkpoints earlier. the wait had grown from half-an-hour to an hour in a very short period of time. officials are encouraging people to come down here early because those lines are just going to grow. they're going to get longer and longer as the day goes on. but as i mentioned, what we've encountered, even with people that have been standing in a line for over an hour, they're

okay with it. they realized there was going to be tight security, they knew that was going to be part of this. quite honestly, there's just a lot of excitement to see the pope so they don't seem all that bothered. >> i guess it depends on what you're going to do on the other side of security there. it is one thing to be going through tsa checkpoints because you have to get on a plane and sit in a cramped seat. but when you're going to go hear the pope or standing through to get through to the global citizens festival which is efforting to end extreme poverty, it makes a big difference when you know what awaits you on the other side. let's hope everyone's spirits stay up. i know you'll monitor the security for us, stephanie. see you in just a little bit. next up, we'll turn to politics and hillary clinton's appearance on "meet the press" this morning. she defended her use of a private e-mail server. what she told chuck todd next.

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the leads in the 2016 race are narrowing. on the republican side, donald trump is still on top but ben carson is only one point hide. marco rubio is climbing, too, while jeb bush continues to fall, now into the single digits. the prospect of joe biden entering the price, it's taking its toll on hillary clinton. without the vooiice president i the mix the lead over bernie sanders doubles. hillary clinton appeared on meteth press this morning. >> i can't predict what you companies are come up, what charges or claims they might make. i have no control over that. i can only do the best i can to try to respond. the justice department has the e-mails. they have the server. they're conducting a security inquiry. they will take whatever necessary steps are required to get this matter resolved. >> you all can see much more of that exclusive interview on the debut tomorrow of chuck todd's new msnbc show "mtp daily"

airing at 5:00 eastern time. president obama will be meeting with russia vladimir putin tomorrow over friction over syria and ukraine. it will be their first mace fac face meeting in nearly a year. kristin welker has more. >> reporter: based on my conversations with administration officials, the view inside the white house is that president putin called this meeting so president obama wants him to set the agenda, wants to know why and what putin plans to offer in terms of dealing with the crisis in ukraine and syria. as you mentioned. but this meeting comes as russia has escalated its presence in ukraine and its military build-up in syria which russia says, by the way, is aimed at defeating isis, but u.s. officials believe that russia's trying to gain a foothold in syria in case that countries collapses. in a statement one u.s. officials says, "given the situations in ukraine and syria,

despite our profound differences with moscow, the president believes that it would be irresponsible not to test whether we can make progress through high-level engagement with the russians." you can expect president obama will press putin on both of those issues and urge putin to de-escalate tensions in ukraine and to stop propping up syrian president bashar al assad. at least that's the expectations. russia could be slapped, by the way, with more sanctions if it doesn't find a way to draw down its forces. foreign policy experts say the relationship between the u.s. and russia is at its lowest point since the cold war, due in large part to the situation in ukraine but also of course the fact that russia has been harboring nsa leaker edward snowden. the last time president obama and president putin met was the g-20 summit in australia last november. so a lot of time has elapsed. not a whole lot of expectation that this meeting will yield real progress.

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new comments from pope francis questioning society's use of social media. he spoke before 300 bishops at a seminary outside philadelphia and talked about how the most important thing today seems to be to follow the latest trend or activity. >> translator: accumulating followers on any of the social network networks, and we human beings get caught up in what contemporary society has to offer. loneliness with fear of commitment in a limitless effort

to feel recognized. >> let's bring in ryan crable, the founding director of the waterhouse family institute for the study of communication and society. it makes you the perfect person to talk to about this. the pope, as you heard, he says we have a consumption that does not create bonds, that has little to do with communication. what is your take on what he calls this culture of loneliness? >> good morning, alex. thanks for having me on. it's a very interesting issue because you have on the one hand a pope who is more popular than ever, perhaps as a result of social media efforts. yet at the same time him talking about some of the reasons to be cautious and skeptical regarding the impact and actually the social consequences of such technologies. >> yeah, that's very true. so he's -- he doesn't give an air of hypocrisy in doing this, right? the things he tweets out,

whether he's the person that's pushing the button on a phone or somebody is trying to convey a message. clearly he understands the use of it. he specifically does not participate in facebook. it's a consideration but they didn't do it because of what? he didn't want to have to respond to people one on one as you do friending and defriending and all that kind of thing? >> i think you're right one of the things the vatican is interested in doing is reaching out globally, using communication technology but being cautious. for instance is it really appropriate for the leader of the world religion to be personal friends with someone on facebook and to be liking or disliking things. from the vatican's perspective, something like twitter is much more suitable because twitter allows the pope to engage in that conversation with global audiences about the nature of values or social justice. but in a way that's much more oriented toward this global

community he's interested in reaching and less of a personal relationship. >> we saw so many people lined up, phone in hand, documenting every detail of the pope's trip. how can the vatican reconcile with this reality that millions of people use social media so much. >> i think one of the things the pope is interested in doing is using social media to also engage people about those social media themselves. so i think in part what makes his message effective is he's not saying i'm sort of someone from the outside who doesn't believe your technologies make any sense. on the other hand what he's saying is i'm engaging these technologies themselves but we should stop and look at one another and think about what these are actually doing to or for us. >> i'm curious, the only place you can find pope francis is on twitter. where would you expect him to appear next? >> that's one of the things our students, wfi interns at the

vatican have been doing. it's one of their services they're able to offer the vatican is saying what are the new communication technologies that's people are using and how is it they're using them because one of the things they can do is say here's why for instance the pope wouldn't want to be on snapchat but here's why something like instagram might make more sense. i think they're constantly looking to see what kind of technologies they might be using but doing so in a cautious and deliberate manner. in some ways having our students there when you have these digital natives, it provides an insight that otherwise they might not necessarily be able to have. >> villanova professor brian crable, thanks so much. the new nbc/"wall street journal" poll numbers which show the republican field is getting closer. we'll take a closer look in our next hour. but to get from the old way to the new, you'll need the right it infrastructure.

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pope francis this morning hugging and shaking hands with several inmates at a correctional facility in philadelphia. during remarks there the pope stressed the importance of rehabilitation. it's a message he's been reiterating throughout this entire week. hello, everyone. it's high noon in the east. 9:00 a.m. out west. welcome to "weekends with alex witt." the pope's trip followed a meeting with seminarians and bishops where he's staying just outside philadelphia. he began the speech by condemning the sex abuse of minors by church officials. >> translator: in my heart, these stories of suffer iing, o those youth that were sexually abused, and it continues to be on my mind that people who had

the responsibility to take care of these tender ones violated that trust and caused them great pain. god weeps. >> nbc news confirmed the pope met with survivors of clerical sex abuse and other forms of abuse at the seminary this morning. let's go to nbc's claudio lavagna. what do you think the significance is of the pope addressing sex abuse at this point of his trip and in front of this audience? >> it's very, very significant, alex, especially first of all, the message where he said the crime cannot be kept a secret anymore. that he will do everything in his power to bring those responsible to trial and to be held responsible. now the place where he delivered that message was also very

important. now he delivered in a chapel full of bishops. 300 bishops because while in the past it has been found that many bishops or archbishops have been turning a blind eye on sexual abu abuse on clergy that have been found guilty of sexually abusing children. that's as big a crime as the sexual abuse itself because it will just allow these priests or clergy to continue to abuse children, whether they are allowed to stay in their parishes or as it has happened in the past if they are just moved away to other parishes far away so that they wouldn't know who they are and what they are accused of. and now the pope is quite serious about targeting also this kind of crime or the turning a blind eye on the crime. he's set up in the vatican a tribunal where bishops as well can be held accountable if they do not address this problem

properly. well, now recently we have the highest ranking clergy to be found responsible or to be charged with the -- not turning a blind eye but in this particular case with paying for sex with children. he was defrocked and taken to the vatican and about to stand trial but he died of a heart attack in august. >> claudio, thank you for that. we'll turn to casey hunt who is on the very crowded benjamin franklin parkway where the final u.s. mass is about to start there in about four hours. so you've been out talking with all sorts of folks in that growing crowd, including the two teachers from the last hour who were festive and very popular. what are you hearing from the folks there? >> well, alex, this crowd has been growing by the minute here on the benjamin franklin parkway. that iconic road in philadelphia where the pope will be in just a few hours. i want to take you and show you

how much this crowd has grown over the course of the past few hours. you can see people have set up chairs, tables, many of them are sleeping on blankets all just hoping to catch a glimpse of this pope. they had to go online and get their tickets. many people here have stories about family members who tried hard to get those tickets but weren't able to. i also wanted to tell you i talked to one couple, his sister had come all the way from iowa just for a chance to get a glimpse of the pope. they got on a 5:30 train this morning to get here really early. take a listen to why they're here. >> this is once in a lifetime experience for me. i am just thrilled to be here. i mean, he is just an incredible man. he certainly is loved by the catholic church but also by those who are not catholic. and i'm just so glad that i've had the opportunity. >> i was here in '79 when john

paul ii came and the mass was over the -- in front of the cathedral. so i find it thrilling i can be back 36 years later for a similar experience. i wouldn't have missed it. >> so john paul ii was here in philadelphia. he actually founded this world council for families in 1981 that pope francis is coming to speak at. this mass is the culmination of pope francis's entire visit to the united states. it's the reason he's here and it's why we're expecting up to 2 million people on tlliopeople o today. secret service are telling people to get here as early as possible. the lines are already extraordinarily long, alex. >> can i just ask you from your experience, you've covered presidents, inaugurations and candidates and stump speeches and everything. have you ever seen anything like this, these crowds? >> like these crowds? no, i haven't. nor have i seen anything like

the security that surrounds all of this. and while we've seen a shrinking of the security zone, more of the city is open today than was open yesterday in certain ways. but frankly the scale of the event of the number of people that have to move to get into these areas is just astonishing. i've covered inaugurations in particular. one of the event organizers was talking about what it meant to move people like ureporters, the media around. it was the equivalent of four superbowls. you think about the size of one super bowl as an event in americana, this is vastly, vastly larger. >> fashionable as you are, i hope you're wearing tennis shoes. >> boots, but they're flat. they are flat. >> that works. i would have worn them, too. thank you so much. we'll talk more about the pope's last day. i'm joined by a professor at duquesne university's rome campus. and with a welcome to you.

i think i want to jump off with the visit to the correctional facility today and the pope's message by doing that. the image, that which he imparted in terms of what he said in his speech but also the way he greeted those men afterward. warm embraces. all down the line. >> i think this is a familiar sight for those of white house live in rome because the pope every holy thursday for two years running has gone to wash the feet of the infates of the correcti correctional facilities. when he began explaining the throne that he's in, the throne made by these inmates, the idea of the pope's seat from which he teaches. you see the two ways he teaches. he started out by speaking to the inmates and then got down and got among them. these people who are excluded from society who are able to be embraced by the pope. it's a tremendous message that not only that, it looks back into the message of the family.

here is where you see the damage done to the family. the real rounds happening here. the huge percentage of men incarcerated because they have no fathers. the millions of children left parentless because of incarceration. this is a man here to heal the family on every level to make sure that no one is excluded. everyone is included. >> and i think to that point this is a group of 150 inmates who were brought in. a population at a facility of about 2800. in terms of the entire prison population make-up, 1/8 is considered kath lurcatholic, on muslim and the rest a mix. do you think these 150 who i'm presuming are going to be catholic. they've shown rigors of theological teaching there, tried to behave themselves accordingly. do you think this message then will carry out and permeate the different facets of a prison

society as we expect it to do in the open society? >> first and foremost, pope francis has made a point in his visit to prisons in rome to make sure there are people who aren't catholic in the crowd. that his mission of outreach is to -- it could perfectly be many different faiths or lack of faith in that room. but more importantly, i think this idea of these people live behind walls. they see people behind glass. they are processed through numbers. and everything francis has been saying is look at the faces and not the numbers. the great universal message he sends when he breaks down that wall. that homily he gave the other night. he breaks down the wall and walks into these people who are really still considered in society as one of the untouchables, and he touches them. these people need to come back and join us because they are one of us. >> it's funny just when you said about his touching them.

remember the aids epidemic and princess diana had this platform on a global stage she'd touch aids patients, and it really did change thunings. does this man have the same power? >> it goes back to jesus. one of my favorite stories is the story of the gospel of the woman with the hemorrhage of blood kept so outside. don't come into the city. she knows that if she can just touch the hem of his garment, she'll be saved and she reaches out. she dares to touch him and jesus welcomes her. when you read the gospels in that first century eye, that touching that jesus does of the blind people, of the deaf people, of the people who are considered the untouchables. that beauty and outreach and opening that really warms us all. >> elizabeth, i know you'll be back shortly. thanks so much. we'll turn our attention to the presidential race. donald trump is on the move, but is it up or down? and what kind of impact is joe

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today the clintons are on a pr offensive against the e-mail controversy surrounding hillary clinton's campaign. bill clinton has said he's never seen so much expended on so little. this morning the democratic front-runner made an appearance on "meet the press" where she spoke about the history of accusations against her. >> i have as you're rightly ponting out, been involved from the receiving side in a lot of these accusations. in fact, as you might remember during the '90s, there were a bunch of them. all of them turned out to be not true. that was the outcome. and when i ran for the senate, the voters of new york, they overlooked all of that and they

looked at my record and looked at what i would do for them. i was elected senator after going through years of this kind of back and forth. and it is regrettable, but it's part of the system. >> over on the republican field, carly fiorina is standing by her criticism of planned parenthood. at a football tailgate yesterday a group of planned parenthood supporters, some dressed as a pack of birth control pills chanted and screamed at her for telling lies in response to fiorina's call to defund the organization. this morning on "meet the press" she fired back. >> i believe this is something we must stand up and fight for. because it is about the character of our nation. taxpayers are funding this activity and not only that, not only are taxpayers having to fund this butchery but planned parenthood doles out millions of dollars every single election cycle to democrat candidates. this is a political slush fund.

>> new national poll numbers out today shoring a close and crowded republican field and more concern for hillary clinton's campaign. according to the lates nbc news/"wall street journal" matchup, dr. ben carson is favored by 20%. that's just one point behind donald trump. marco rubio and carly fiorina are tied. hillary clinton leads bernie sanders by just seven points. if you take biden out of the equation, the lead is just seven points. good to see you. ben carson has a ten-point jump since july. what do voters like about him? >> there are a couple of things he has going for him. he's able to channel that outsider appeal that republicans are looking for. it's not surprising that you

have donald trump, carly fiorina and ben carson, one, two and three with marco rubio tied also for third. those three people at the top are people who are political outsiders. they have no previous experience in elected office. and the other thing that separates ben carson from the pack, at least from donald trump, is his christian faith. where he's so much more explicit than donald trump is. you add up that outsider appeal, plus his christian faith, and it shows you why he's taken off a bit in the polls. it's important to know our poll and ben carson's ten-point jump. the last time we were out in the field was in july. that was even before the first republican debate. we didn't come out until you have conclusion of two republican debates, and this is what the field looks like right now. other polls that have come out in the last couple of weeks had also shown ben carson starting to move up in the polls. >> we should say that donald

trump did carry a bible with him at the summit. there were strong debate performances this last time around. both of them have seen a significant jump in the poll numbers. do you think that's the next headto head we should watch? >> i think we should continue to watch every debate. it seems every time we have a debate the order gets changed up a little bit. to look at where rubio and fiorina have come from. in our last july nbc/"wall street journal" poll, carly fiorina was at 0. now at 11%. marco rubio was at 5 percentage points back in july. now at 11. that's a six-point bump. they've both had a bump up in the polls. the question becomes, what is the situation look like at the end of october, early november after cnbc holds its debate in late october. >> we've been keeping such close watch on joe biden. all these numbers this morning, should they give the hillary clinton campaign pause?

>> i think really headline is if joed bien does get in the race that hurts hillary clinton more than bernie sanders. her lead with biden in the field is seven. when you remove joe biden her lead is 15 points. you can see joe biden says he'll not run. you'd end up seeing more establishment support for hillary clinton. her numbers would start to go up. if you have a three-person race, that's makes it a much closer contest. so i think it will move. political world continues to watch for joe biden. does he make his move? a lot of respects, it needs to come very soon for him to put on a credible campaign with a lot of money and ability to fund-raise. >> mark, we saw a little bit of chuck's interview with hillary clinton. what's the big takeaway and how long will this e-mail server

story keep going? >> i do think that, to me, the big takeaway was even hillary clinton's recognition this isn't going away any time soon. a lot of it is not going to come to an end until two things happen. that she's able to answer all the questions about benghazi committee hearing on october 22nd. and which i expect we'll see a lot of sparring between her and the republican members on that committee. and then the federal bureau of investigation has to give her a clean bill of health. until those two things happen, she really can't put this away entirely. even as she recognized, there's a drip, drip nature to the story. she still leads the democratic race double digits without joe biden. this has taken a toll on her campaign but i'd imagine almost any politician who would find themselves in this type of drip, drip, drip story would see their numbers bleed. >> mark, good to see you. >> thanks, alex. how some newspapers are

covering the pope's visit in the u.s. that's next. he streetlights in detroit,

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because it matters. 25 past the hour. the crowd continues to grow on the benjamin franklin parkway ahead of the pope's final mass in the u.s. up to 2 million people are expected to attend this afternoon the service. authorities are using bag searches and crowd control cattle chutes. in an effort to keep everyone safe. we'll have a live report on the security procedures coming up in a few minutes. a look at how pope francis is making headlines in some of the nation's newspapers. first the front page from where the pope is ending his historic trip, "the philadelphia inquirer." give, getting love with his arrival at the festival last night. just to the south of philly, the sunday news journal shows a photo of the pontiff waving to

the crowd at independence hall. "brotherly love." that says it all. and this front stage from the stuart news on florida's east coast. a powerful image of the pope kissing the head of a baby accompanying the headline "pontiff looks to family." some of the highlights from this week. schoolchildren share their thoughts about meeting pope francis and we'll hear those endearing memories, next. covergirl wants you to blast your beautiful! lash blast - a blast of mega volume in an instant! clump crusher - 200% more volume with zero clumps and covergirl fusion - a big blast of volume plus length. big bold mascaras... big bold lashes - no matter how you blast it. blast mascaras - from easy, breezy beautiful covergirl. show us how you blast it at covergirl.com/blast

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very thorough ones as well. stephanie gosk is there for us. stephanie, i know you had to get through a couple of security points to move around yesterday and today. what's the mood like? people frustraitted with line or they know what's at the end of that security line and that keeps them happy? >> we've seen people really cheery. all these people walking down here have yet to hit those lines. we talked to a family that last minute had flown in from miami and they seemed all right with it. >> wasn't that bad. my son and i left the perimeter so we had to come back in, and it took a long time. they were definitely being thorough. i thought even more so than an airport. >> we also had an opportunity to walk and go check out one of those lines. we spoke to some of the people in them. all the way up at the front people had waited an hour. in the time they'd been there, the line had doubled. you can only guess the people at

the end had a two-hour wait in front of them. officials have been advising people to come as early as possible because those lines just keep getting longer and longer. >> oh, my goodness. that poor family when they leave and had to come back in. it's not like in disneyland you get your hand stamped and come back in. the fact the security area is shrinking, right? they have opened up parts of the city now that we really only have this one area to focus upon. >> that's exactly right. where we're standing right now on ben franklin parkway has been opened up. you needed to go through magnetometers yesterday where we were in our location to get to where we're standing now so they've shrunken that area and people now can walk through here. but they will still need to go through security checks if they want to get along the route where the pope is expected to pass or closer to where he's holding that mass. and just from what we've been seeing today, alex, it just

seems like these numbers are eclipsing the numbers from yesterday. people will have perhaps an unwelcome surprise when they reach those security lines. >> pack your patience is one advisable phrase for the day. stephanie gosk, thank you so much for that. beyond the headlines that pope francis is making, the holy father is touching lives in immeasurable ways. no doubt he'll have a lasting impression on the children of east harlem's school. >> it was amazing and a great opportunity. my head -- it felt like my head dropped all the way to my foot and like i was crying. >> what i did for the pope is show him how to use the smart board. the pope was not very good at computers. >> he touched my head. so i'm not going to wash my hair for a while now.

>> it is going to be donated to charity. he's good at being nice. he's good at being a friend. >> i asked him to pray for my dad because my dad has a lot of surgeries. and so he's not too healthy. so i want him to be healthier. i asked the pope to pray for him. >> made me emotional and i started tearing up. in my heart, my heart was pounding so fast. it was crazy because not a lot of people get to meet him. imagine being eye to eye with him, right in front of him, and then he told me only one thing, to pray for him. and that made me the happiest because who tells you to pray for them? especially the highest, the pope. the pope himself telling you to pray for him. that's just incredible. once in a lifetime. you don't see that every day. >> that's for sure. those are the thoughts of some

fortunate and inspired children who no doubt will ever forget their time with the pope. it's not just the schoolchildren. our next guest got that chance to meet with pope francis during his visit to washington. mary jo copeland joins us from minneapolis. welcome to you. you described your meeting with the pope like touching the face of jesus. tell us about that experience. >> it was such a warmth, such a beautiful heart of love and compassion that you can't help feel that energy when i touched him. when i went to hug him, and he hugged me back. it was something you can't explain. he's such a wonderful man. when i said it was like touching the face of jesus, it was. jesus is kind like him and he sent him to be able to give that message to the world. i'm touched by the fact i had that opportunity. i asked him to pray for me. i've been doing this work for 31 years, and, wow, i think i'd like another 30.

he shook his head, he's going to pray for me because i want to continue to help the poor like i have. >> i'm psaassuming given what you've done in all that volunteer work is that what allowed you to meet with the pope? was it through your work? >> it was through my work of the poor, soaking the feet, taking care of hundreds of families and children, giving them hope. it was so beautiful because bishop's cousins is the auxiliary bishop. he wrote a letter and i wrote a letter and months went by and finally it said you come and see the pope. the pope would love to see you. i couldn't believe i got the call. i'm just a little servant. i'm not much of anybody but i've always been faithful to god's call to take care of his people. this is really god blessing his work to continue this work because this work's gone throughout the country. i have so many people from

somalia and sri lanka. i bet i'll get people from syria, too, and i'll help them, too. >> you are pretty impressive. i wanted to ask how your meeting with the pope is going to influence what you do to help the poor? >> it's energizing so many thousands of volunteers to come to serve meals, tutor the children. i've got 100 units of transitional housing. so many people involved in that. and it's going to energize the community to know that the pope has asked everybody to embrace humanity as they are. not as we want them to be. not worrying about love doesn't know any color, religion and that's going to bring an extra message to people that might have had their doubts or what's going on. that's going to help my work a lot. it's not my work. it's god's work but it's going to help people be fathful to their commitment to come to serve. like i said, i have thousands of people that help. >> mary jo, if you could pinpoint point one thing that

you think will stay most prominent in your mind and heart, what would that be? >> from a moment when i asked him, pope francis, holy father, if you would ever come back, would you come to sharing and caring hands, and we could soak feet and you could help all the kids, and he actually laughed and smiled. i think i'll remember that always. i believe he could come here some day. i really do. and his message, i guess i just felt it in him. i've always said pray, love, hope, pray, love, serve and forgive. he can come and we can do that together. >> mary jo copeland, a most impressive woman. best of luck to you continuing with your work. appreciate it. >> thank you, alex. thank you, and god bless you all. >> thank you. pope francis greeted throughout his trip in the u.s. by adoring fans and admirers. he certainly has his critics among some conservative

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♪ the most affordable way to print. hp instant ink. now to a few questions you might have been asking yourself. who is pope francis? and what did his journey to the vatican look like? the pope this morning touching on a vision for the church that's become the hallmark of his papacy. >> translator: christian are not immune to the changes of their times this concrete world with all its many problems and possibilities is where we must li live, believe and proclaim. >> joining me to give us a behind the scenes look at pope francis is the author of "pope francis, the struggle for the soul of catholicism."

with a welcome to you, let's talk about what pope francis did today. he brought up sexual abuse right in the beginning of his remarks. in your book you write about bureaucratic opposition within the church when it comes to addressing the sex abuse crisis. where does pope francis fall into this equation? >> there are many people in the church who still feel it's bad for the church to wash its dirty linen in public and they are against the pope setting up his commission on sex abuse and the action that's been taken. pope francis took a year before he launched that commission. he's got some kinds of hesitations himself. when he meets victims, he's very open to them and very compassionate, but he's also aware of the fact people can make false accusations against priests. he wants the systems to be very careful. he's kind of on the middle of it rather than being fully behind the cleanup.

>> what about traditionalists? how do they view him? >> on the sex abuse question or in general? >> give me the sex abuse question and then let's talk about it in general. >> well, generally, they think it's better if the church covers things up and presents a clean and blank face to the public. they don't like this kind of thing. >> is that even possible given the fact that the scandal has saturated the news media? it's not as if anybody who knows anything about the catholic church of late has glossed over that. so isn't he taking a hands-on approach because he sort of has to? >> well, you could say that and i might say that, but there are people in the vatican who think that it would be better if there was a veil drawn over all of this. and it's part of the bubble they live in which the pope is

constantly criticizing. he talks about clericalism and people who live in this clerical world and don't have proper contact with the reality that you and i are in touch with. >> all right. so then more broadly, paul, traditionalists in terms of viewing this pope sknrergeneral. what do they feel about him? >> they feel he doesn't share his priorities. he just never talks about them. so for instance, when he was at congress and talking about the seamless attitude of the catholic church to life, they all thought he was going to talk about abortion but he immediately talked about the death penalty and how it should be abolished. it's not just that he disagrees. he just thinks the church is obsessed about that too much. that's his word. he said the church has been obsessed with abortion and needs to focus on more important things. he shifted the focus away from sex and on to money. >> something else he did today,

paul, he went to a prison. he went to speak to prisoners. he hugged them. they embraced him back. he does this on holy thursdays in rome. he goes and washes the feet of incarcerated italians there in prison. this is something that a u.s. president hasn't done. how do conservative catholics see this? >> well, conservative catholics think he should be only washing the feet of priests in these services. he's got a different attitude. he thinks the gospel is not about the church or institution but about getting the message out to the wider world of how jesus sees the reality. and as he said in that clip that you played, that reality changes, as time changes. he's a man who -- i tell the story in my book of the way his life changes. he started off rather conservative figure and he's turned to his experiences with

the poor and through his experiences with having real really -- up as a leader of the jesuits. he learns from experience and is looking at the world from the bottom up. the furst pope from the developing world and he looks at it in a different way than conservatives do who tend to look at it from a european or north american point of view. >> paul, what is the most misunderstood thing about pope francis and his teachings? >> i think people look at him through a political template and say is he a conservative or liberal. he's neither of those. he's a kath electrcatholic. that means concerned about social justice and poverty issues and he thinks the pope are hit first and worst by climate change. he's concerned about those things which seem like left issues but they're part of a harmonious social order view of the world that's catholic. and then concerned about issues of personal morality on which

hooe he'd look to the secular world like a conservative. he holds all of that together in a harmonious catholic view of the world which is different from the political view. >> all right, well, paul valley, author of "pope francis, the struggle for the soul of kath l catholicism." the gop contenders, next. ♪ (stranger) good mornin'! ♪ (store p.a.) attention shoppers, there's a lost couple in the men's department. (vo) there's a great big un-khaki world out there. explore it in a subaru crosstrek. love. it's what makes a subaru, a subaru. have you touched the stuff?. it's evil. and ladders. sfx: [screams]

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york for meetings ahead of monday's u.n. general assembly. one of the most closely watched meetings will be between obama and russian president vladimir putin. it will be their first face-to-face meeting in nearly a year. nbc's kristen welker is at the white house for us. with another good day to you, how did this meeting come about? there's some question about that. >> hey, alex. good afternoon. it's interesting. president putin requested this

me meeting with prtdesident obama. they hope he has something to bring in the table but they doubt it. they think this may be just for the optics. the meeting comes as russia has escalated its presence in ukraine and military build-up in syria. you can expect president obama to press putin on both of these issues. he's going to lightly urge putin to start to withdraw from ukraun and stop propping up bashar al assad. russia could be slapped with more sanctions if it doesn't find a way to draw down its forces in ukraine. they've imposed several rounds of sanctions on russia. four policy experts say, look, the relationship between the united states and russia is at one of its lowest points since the cold war. that is due in large part to russia a annexation of crimea but also the fact they're harboring nsa leaker edward

snowden. another big meet, president obama will be meeting with cuban president castro on the sidelines of this meeting as well. this comes as the two countries are normalizing relations. the last time they met was in april. alex? >> all right, kristen welker, thank you for that update. are donald trump's sky-high poll numbers finally settling bit more down to earth? the new nbc news/"wall street journal" poll is out today. and trump is effectively tied with ben carson. also up is marco rubio. he started a war of words with trump, and it looks like the added attention may have helped the florida senator. joining me on the front, howard dean and republican strategist susan del persio. howard, i understand your home cam wasn't working today so we're bringing you in by phone. >> i'll have to call the cable company and see if i paid the

bill. >> since susan made the effort to get here -- just kidding. ben carson is not exactly a moderate republican who can steal some of the middle of the road voters. is the republican party doing the democrats' work for them? >> i wouldn't say that's happening right now. what you see in these poll numbers again, republicans do not want an establishment candidate. and that's never more clear than when you look at jeb bush's numbers. jeb bush went from 14% to 7%. he should have picked up some of walker's supporters. >> where did that go? >> walker went from 15% to 0% because he dropped out. and it looks like it went to rubio and carl i fiorina. carson took a little away from donald trump but those numbers are tied. right now the voters are still saying we want an outsider. what -- if donald trump is going to actually keep moving up, what

is he going to do? because the name calling fell horribly flat. he got booed for calling marco rubio a clown. just happened. and that is making trump look bad. he needs a second act and he's going to have to do it probably with this tax plan and show he has some real ideas. this is getting really thin. the name calling isn't going to work. >> he touts himself as being the ultimate businessman. >> he's got to be specific on this. >> governor dean, not a great picture for your candidate on the democratic side, hillary clinton. you look at her numbers against bernie sanders. she's steadily declining. you can look at one particular poll and say snapshot, it's one poll. but it did say four months. what's happening? >> well, first of all, bernie is becoming known. anybody could be within 16 points ahead of somebody if nobody has ever heard of them. bernie has run a graduate

campaign. hillary has been on the most prolonged attack of her career. if you saw the nbc "meet the press" today, she's back. she did a great job. she looked presidential. she couldn't be shaken no matter how much the interviewer, chuck todd, tried to. i think she's on the right track and she'll be fine. i'm not the least worried about this. >> let's play a clip from "meet the press." because chuck todd specifically asked her about the poll numbers. >> is the issue not truthfulness but how you've handled it? >> let me say this, chuck. i have tried to the best of my ability to be able to respond. and if people are uncertain if they have concerns about these questions around the e-mails, it is their choice to say, that's going to influence how i think about the election. i understand that. i get it. >> that's a somewhat fatalistic

stance, howard. is it too late to -- >> it's very, very smart. it basically says if the voters continue to want to delve into what is essentially a media scandal, quote/unquote, let them. but the voters don't want to do that. what the voters want to hear is substance. there was very little of that in the interview today. if you turn off the sound, that is how you tell if somebody is doing well. i turned off the sound and watched her. she looked presidential. she did not get defensive. she looked relaxed. i was a huge plus and i think it's a turn-around. >> back to this fight between rubio and trump. trump took a real swipe at rubio at the values voter summit. he didn't get the usual cheers but i want our viewers to see what hand there. >> like you have this clown marco rubio. i've been so nice to him. i've been so nice.

and then -- no. >> you said he needs a second act. it's like we heard that before. the clown and the -- >> and marco rubio has clearly gotten under donald trump's skin. at very clear now he's going after. but he realizes now, hopefully donald trump realizes now he has to go after rubio on substance, not on this name calling spree. it's very interesting that donald trump is coming out with this plan tomorrow amidst the president's visit to the u.n. there will be a lot of news. maybe he's hoping people will skim over it. what does he have to offer the public? that's what we're waiting to hear. if he doesn't offer anything specific you could see his numbers go down further. that's a wrap of this hour. coming up, pope francis has one more event today before ending his six-day stay in the u.s. in a moment back to philadelphia where more than a million people ever b expected to attend this afternoon's papal mass.

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