tv Scenes of a Crime MSNBC September 27, 2015 7:00pm-8:01pm PDT
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>> i didn't do nothing. i swear to god. >> i think you're a liar. you're going to prove it to me. >> i didn't do nothing. >> the most difficult part of this case we knew we had going into it was the fact there was a written statement. and that there was a videotape. >> nobody wants to remember harming your own kid, man. if i harmed my own kid, i would repress that memory, too. >> it had adrian demonstrating certain things involving his child. >> walk around and boom, into a wall. >> it's probably the most critical single piece of evidence in this trial. >> you can be thinking, i don't know what to do. i can't take the pressure. it's building. i ain't had a job since february. settle this baby down, i can't do it. that's not intentional. >> i know the circumstance is when confessions typically
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contained. >> your mother-in-law nagging you. your wife calling you a loser. >> there is a fairly high incident of false con interrogations. >> show me how you threw matthew on your bed. >> to have the defendant throwing a binder as if it was your son. i knew this was important evidence. >> show me how hard you threw him on that bed. >> where did you grow up? >> the south. >> georgia? >> yeah. the south. >> we knew there was an injury to a child. we knew there were six other children. we didn't want anything to happen to them either. child protective decided they were going to take them children. >> part of our role was to stand
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by while they removed six children from the home and we wanted to talk to adrian about what would happen to matthew. >> we called the chief of detective. if you are going to talk them, i would like you to bring him down to the station. it's a 9 x 5 cell. the camera is a plastic bulb and there is a tiny antenna sticking out of the ceiling. you would not know it was there. we forgot about the camera. >> really bad for yourself. >> that's what the doctor case says. >> swear to god, man. >> doctor said it wasn't a case? >> he didn't seem like his son was in the hospital on the verge of dying. it didn't seem like he was very concerned about that. >> i believe the first person we spoke to of authority was the doctor. i asked him what happened. his words were somebody murdered
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this child. >> dr. edge explained this injury was a high impact injury similar to a motorcycle crashing at 60 miles per hour. >> he put his hands out and said it's like this. it's that a hard-hitting quick stoppage. this happens from somebody taking somebody and slamming them into something fast and hard. >> remember where thinking could happen where that baby was crying a lot? >> the baby was. it was progressed from friday to saturday. i'm not lying. >> we started to think adrian thomas did something to this child. >> i don't think anybody would hurt a baby on purpose. >> no. that's what i'm saying. >> i'm not saying you did it on purpose. this was an accident.
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>> when we are speaking to you, we are lying. we want you to tell us the truth. we'll say anything to get you to tell us the truth. we give you the outs. here is your out. could it have happened you dropped the baby and it hit the back of the crib? anybody could have done that? that looks intentional. no, that wouldn't be intentional. that is what a father of six people could have done because he's exhausted. >> i wouldn't drop no baby. i would know if i dropped a baby. >> did you walk with a baby like that? >> i wouldn't walk with a baby like that like a football. >> who could have done this? we need to figure out how this could have happened in your care. >> no. i could have bumped him going
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into the crib. no lie. could have bumped it. never out of anger. >> of course not. >> i wasn't certain that what he told me to that point caused the injury. i wasn't certain i was going to get that information at that point. >> normally when we take a statement we write the statements and have them read them over and sign the statement. we want to get something on paper. what that did was lock him into this is the way it could have happened. >> this is a synapses. >> none of that was what the doctor said at the medical center. >> i can't imagine how you must feel. we can get you help for that. >> we had to say maybe we should send him up to samaritan medical help. he did make the comment he did want to hurt himself. what do you want to do tonight?
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>> you know, i want to speak to somebody. i feel real bad. >> we'll bring you up there. >> i feel bad, man. i feel real bad, you know? >> he slapped boxed me 1 1/2 hours. here we have a man subject to this overwhelming catastrophic stress. groggy without sleep. depressed. has a baby still, in his mind, in the hospital at death's door. >> dent seem surprised to see us when he came out. he appeared to be in the same condition as he was the night before when we first met him. >> i can't imagine how you felt. since february? sitting in the house every day
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since february with seven kids, wife telling you, why you have a job yet? it's right in front of your head. you want to do the right thing. what's holding you back, adrian? you think you'll get in trouble for this? i'm not a man of my word. when i told you i'm not going to arrest you tonight, i'm hold you to that. right? you admitted to stuff tonight, right? if i wanted to arrest you and i could. i want to give you help. >> all detectives have different strengths. some people want to interview someone, but an hour and a half into it they're done. i'm someone i can interview someone for hours and hours. >> admitted you caused some of these injuries. did you or did you not cause injuries? >> i did. >> all right? did you or did you not?
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did you mean to cause the injuries? when you dropped the boyish in the crib, was it intentional or accident? >> accident. >> you threw the baby on the bed saturday night? >> yes. >> why didn't you tell me? we are trying to put a relationship here. you're lying to me. >> said intentional. >> here. hold that like you hold the baby. look at me. now. here's the bed right here. start thinking about them kids crying all day or night in your ear. your mother-in-law nagging you, your wife calling you a loser. show that aggression building up. don't try to sugar coat me. show me how hard you threw him on that bed.
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that's how you did it? >> no. it was not intentional. >> all three times did you it like that? >> police tactics were something we were concerned about. there was trickery and deceit that. didn't trouble me professionally. i know the law tolerates that. the law allows it. it's a generally accepted interviewing technique. carmax makes car buying stress-free, with fair, no haggle-prices for everyone, every... now wait a minute, can we, can we just hold on for a second? you know, we don't need any of this stuff. look, we're not splashy. we're not gimmicky. we're just a bunch of people like jeff... good people who sell good cars to good people. and that's what we mean by the bright side of car buying.
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my solemn promise and i haven't lied tonight, when we are done here, we are bringing you home. >> police being dishonest like this was a concern in our mind. how would the jury view the confession. >> that's not what we are here to do tonight. >> would they give less credit to the confession of adrian thomas after this. >> he's gentle.
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he's easy. everyone at home knows he's a good boy. i know he didn't do what they say he did. >> adrian wrote a lengthy statement what happened before and after the infant's death. he admits to violently throwing the 4-month-old into the crib. >> we dispute here and now adrian thomas caused the death of that boy. >> after determining this was a case we needed to hire someone of false con fissions. >> i study interrogations and they study them from miami, florida, to barrow, alaska. that became my principle area of work and has been the last 25 years. this one is particularly ugly, but only the shade of ugly norv that differentiates it from lots of others i've seen. >> myself personally when i hear of an interrogation of a suspect
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that, brings you back to the old cop days on tv or somebody's got a white light hanging over your head and asking point-blank questions you better answer. >> police interrogation in this country has been transforms over the last 80, 90 years. there was a time when the principle method police used to overcome resistance was called the third degree. that meant beating a confession out of a suspect. the supreme court handed down cases making it quite claire that the tortuous practices that went into third degree had been and remained unacceptable in america. this ultimately forced police to find a new way to interrogate. >> through extended research and years of experience, john reid developed a nine-step interrogation process. step number one --
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>> we've been to some interviews and interrogation schools, how to get confessions. i went to that one. you still have to talk to people. me and adam work well together and could talk to people. we to make things up as we guy along. >> i did a ten-day one-day seminar. i don't plan ahead of time for what my approach is going to be. i just do it. >> slight favor. >> the heart of the reid method is put somebody in a position in which they are given a choice between two alternatives. they use soft language, describe what happened in the least offensive terms. they also will suggest there's a
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reason for why this happened. >> when things happen in bars, they're not planned. what they are is spur of the moment. someone has a couple too many cocktails. someone makes a wise crack and bang, something happens. >> someone is going to look at this 4-month-old baby with a fracture in the back of his skull and say you didn't tell him he did it on accident? >> why did i do that? >> the way which this part of interrogation goes, the citing of a since in an individual i don't have power, they have all the power is by the interrogator introducing what i refer to as evidence ploys. evidence ploy is any statement which, if it were true, would link the person to the crime. >> there is a fracture on the back of the skull, okay? that's not something that happens that -- it just doesn't
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happen without someone being involved and someone knowing it happened? you follow me? however that happened, somebody knows. >> the interrogator will suggest the scenario for the crime and make it clear if this is the way it happened, you can go home at the end of the day. >> if you tell us accidentally you caused this injury last night or the night before, we'll still drive you home tonight. >> that's the magic word. accident. he keeps putting in, it was an accident, and it was an accident. >> do you think if you accidentally caused this injury we'll arrest you? >> yes. >> if we lie to you, you can use that against us. >> you walking in on a crying
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baby and saying, i hate this baby. i'm frustrated. this baby won't start crying. >> i didn't do it. >> it's a big difference. if you didn't do it, maybe that's how it happened with your wife. did she tell that you? >> no. >> the next move is there are only two adults in the house. if it wasn't you, it was your wife. >> this accident was caused by either you or your wife or some adults. >> sometimes you give her a scary look. >> we'll do whatever to do to make him tell us the truth. we'll tell us our own child did this just to get him to tell us the truth. >> who could have done that? grab the baby by the shoulders.
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>> who could hold a baby and drop the baby on a kitchen floor? >> if you didn't accidentally harm your child, your wife did. >> my wife is a good wyche. i'm not going to lie to you. i don't believe my wife did i have no idea my wife did that. know what i'm saying? if it comes down to it, i'll take the blame for it because i didn't -- listen, i didn't do it. i saw it if i come down for it, i'll take the rap for my wife. >> if he is saying he didn't do, his wife must have done it. we said that hoping to get some rise out of him. >> i'm saying i'll take the fall for my wife. i've got a good wife it.
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i didn't do it. >> tell us how it happened. >> then you can't take the fall for your wife. >> adrian can't tell them what happened. they don't seem surprised by that. they display nothing that suggests they have any understanding that you can coerce a false confession from someone ignorant about the crime. you can't get blood from a stone. >> i believe my wife didn't do it. i know for a fact i didn't do it. maybe it could have happened in my care possibly. >> adrian came around a little bit and took some of the outs. maybe the baby did fall and bang his head. >> he did quiet. i did bump his head. put him in the crib. at the same time he was crying. >> you think he bumped his head hard enough to cause an injury. >> if you can get that person to say, well, i might have held him
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a little hard because you're suggesting that and you're stru structuring that as a way out. you might have found a crack in the wall. >> we'll talk to him tomorrow. >> if you can find that crack in the wall, you can stick something in it and widen the crack and try to develop it. >> is that all right? >> yeah. we'll talk about it tomorrow. i'm not going to skip town. all i'm saying, i didn't do nothing wrong. >> i don't think did you anything wrong either. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪
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there is a skull fracture. he may have couched that it appears or believed. the next day it was determined there was no skull fracturing. it gave ammunition to the defense to challenge the accuracy of the prosecution medical testimony. >> this is how i defend criminal cases. i try to figure out what really happened. i called dr. leesma. >> it's the study of human disease, how it looks, what it looks like under the microscope, how it does its dirty business. i said look at this. there was obviously an infection
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present. i was interested to see what, if any organisms could be found in this area that requires a special stain. that enabled me to say these are loaded with bacterial form. the nature of the infection could be life-threatening. a cross of death right there. >> i did research and fought out who was the man, the physician, that is dr. jerome klein from boston. harvard med, a world class expert on spepediatric infectio disease sees. >> it is a clinical term that says there is infection. the child had been ill with
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vomiting, diarrhea, but on the morning of september 21st, the mom observed the baby at 6:00 and 8:00. there appeared to be respiratory distress and she called emts. in the diagnosis, sepsis was obvious. when the child was transferred to albany medical center, it changed from infection to child abuse. unfortunately, in matthew's case, he proceeded to deteriorate. he dropped to a white cell count of 1,000. failure to maintain stability of
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temperature. failure to maintain oxygen saturations. all reflections of overwhelming reflections reflections of seven everyone septic shock. >> this is jerome klein. he published 967 pieces of on infectious diseases. he's the man. >> the county medical examiner, there isn't one 0 word of sepsis in his report. >> they will bring their own bias to the facts. the biology of the disease is based on factual information. we have information of what the
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blood cultural revealed. the bone marrow was suppressed. >> once the possibility of abuse comes in it whites out everything else. i think that happened in this case. it happened frequently. >> the doctors suspected abuse was going on at this point. matthew was sent for a ct scan. >> there is a gap. an inch between the surface of brain and under surface of the skull. that is moderately black appearing there. that would indicate that is more water than anything else. if you have a clicollection of blood it will be while.
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as it ages, it becomes grayer and grayer. those things one could see on the ct scan of this child. indicates there are more chronic processes going on. probably many weeks, maybe many months old. >> i can't say what happened. i don't know how the older head injury got there. i don't believe anyone noise. >> what was the birth like? the circumstances at birth? we look into the medical record. born early. one of twins. difficulties surrounding the birth. bacterial infection. the mother membranes were broken early. f forceps used. this poor kid is struggling. birth is hard enough anyway, let alone with these particular problems which can start
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bleeding going in the brain that maybe doesn't show itself for several months. i think that is exactly what happened in this child. >> starting with dr. edge. he goes in there with a theory, a conclusion based on nothing. communicated in very, very highly emotional terms to the sergeant who communicates it to detective mason. we're off and running with nothing but a conclusion. because adrian thomas adopts sergeant mason's scenario and throws a notebook on the floor, they should be ashamed of themselves. i'm sorry. but demand for our cocktail bitters was huge. i could feel our deadlines racing towards us. we didn't need a loan. we needed short-term funding. fast. our amex helped us fill the orders. just like that.
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whirl wind that included a mass for 1 million people in downtown philly. president obama will be speaking at the u.n. assembly monday morning. the president committed to a new plan to eliminate poverty and hunger around the wormd. world.. world. we live in a country that pim involved in a criminal justice system charged with seeking and administering justice sometimes don't seem to care very much about it. >> he had a fracture in the back of his skull. guess what? that ain't true. he doesn't have a fracture on his skull. >> i was informed the original
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diagnosis of a skull fracture was not true. >> it's too bad police can't take a step back and see what's going on where we rush to judgment about adrian. too bad that didn't take place. >> it's just messed up. >> say a prayer for matthew, all right? say a prayer. lord, please help. >> you have a man here who never spent time in jail. no criminal history. who had been through a series of tragic things and i guess the best way i can describe him is a deere in head lights. >> we call upon to you help us for a miracle. >> desperate measure to get a statement they resort to so many offensive lies.
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telling him anything he could do or say would save his son's life when there is no hope for this child to survive. >> they have the ability to keep your son alive. do you want your son to be alive? >> i knew there was no chance saving matthew's life it. didn't feel bad telling adrian that. ultimately it was my goal to get the truth out of him. >> did you shake him? >> they are planting the seeds. >> host:ing something will catch with adrian. >> find that memory right now. this is important. >> we don't care finding out the truth. >> if those doctors can't save your son's life, what future will you have? >> i'm hours in the interview and i have no idea what caused the injury.
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>> for me to turn into the bad guy and start yelling at him wasn't a smart thing to do at that point. there came a point when sergeant was watching the monitor. come into the office and yell at him and call him a liar. i went back in. started going through the motions again with the interview. it was exactly what i was looking for him to do. >> i didn't do nothing. >> you took that baby and slammed his head. >> i couldn't have. >> the doctor said if injury was caused by rapid acceleration and sudden deceleration which means just like that. he thought the baby was in a car accident. >> i wear to god i didn't do that to my kid. >> you talk to him for a while,
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all right? if you need anything, give me a call. >> talk about lying to me. >> i swear to god, i'm not lying. that's what happened. >> i tried to make adrian feel bad for me because he made me look like a foot. i'm embarrassed you've got another detective telling me you're lying to me. i came up with that and thought that might be a good idea to get adrian to realize i am on the same level as him and he can trust me. it's worse than you are making it out to be, all right? >> they are just playing him. they are trying to get a story that is even worse than the story they've gotten. they don't now why this baby died. >> if you're suffering depression, you don't have to
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think, i'm going to hurt my child. you can think, i don't know what to do. i can't take the pressure. set this baby down because i can't do it. >> none of these demonstrations occurred at the initiative of adrian. they were initiated by detective mason. >> show me how you threw that baby on the bed. >> adrian, you did it harder than that. >> he had him demonstrate and do it again. do it harder. adrian looks him like a zombie. he can't tell the cop that. >> think about them kids crying all day and night in your ear. your mother-in-law nagging at you. don't try to sugar coat it.
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show me how hard you threw him on the bed. >> is that how you did it? >> once you found the buttons you need to push, i'm going to arrest your wife, separate your children. i'm going to take care of you if you tell a story that satisfies me. now you've broken him. you tell him, i want you to stand up and reenact this. i'll reenact it. why? because you now control them. false confession is probably the second leading cause of miscarriages of justice. a big part of that is because juries don't understand why an innocent person might confess. this kind of information can help a jury get to a just conclusion. (wind noise)
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during the course of the trial, the defense calls a doctor to the stand. we did note get prior notice which is customary that if you are going to call an expert like that, you are going to give some notice because it's such a contested area in new york state, the area of false confessions. >> it's hard for someone to understand the idea the innocent person might are gotten to give a false confession. you can't expect somebody to understand how interrogation works by watching an interrogation. >> the case was assigned to the judge who was fairly recent le a
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pointed to the point. the court decided the defense has not convinced him there should be testimony on the issue of false con fission. that was not something the jury did not need help. >> being denied to call the judge was a setback. on the other hand, we were confident based upon the medical evidence we were going to win. the judge said there is nothing an accepted field of knowledge much psychological coercion. >> we offer to the suspect psychological justification for the commission of the crime. >> guess what? the object is to get a confession without real concern about whether it's true or not. >> make it easy on them. we sandt way what happened, why did you do it, tell me about it.
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that requires too much effort on their part. >> interrogation when done properly is about getting someone to demonstrate they have knowledge of how the crime really happened. they now details that are not told to them so they are not contaminated. details not necessarily known to the police. >> set this baby down. i can't do it. >> everything adrian thomas said in this case was fed to him by sergeant mason. >> the mother was very cooperative. >> police would like to you believe there is arguments between him and his wife. i would pick up only matthew. all the kids are home. nobody sees anything.
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it's a small apartment, 600 square feet. his wife never testified that she had seen him be rough with matthew. i believe ms. hicks at the time of trial was still attempting to have returned to her custody all of her children who had been removed from the home. she was to have contact with him or assist in his defense that, could impact her ability to have her children returned. >> there was a long period of time where she was just getting visitation with her children. it was important justice be carried out, but extremely important her children be returned home to her. >> thomas testified he merely took the fall for his wife saying, "my wife was a good wife. i didn't want her to be arrested." i testified his confession was a
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called face lie. >> he had his nose up in the air and ignored all the itself as theyer being shown. >> adrian's appearance first in the videotape on the witness stand was two different people. very vulnerable in the interrogation. on the witness stand, some of the jurors said he appeared arrogant. >> they had testified he was looking for a job and i'm sitting there and i'm a human resources manager constantly looking for people. there are jobs out there. on the stand, he was saying way signed was not true. it was true because the way i acted during the actual video is, was his real being. >> the whole videotape seemed entirely the detectives were
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telling adrian what adrian did. >> yes, they told these little lies. but i don't think it was anything -- they didn't put words in his mouth. >> i was angry and the police and techniques they used. the lying, misrepresenting things didn't seem right. >> he could continue to deny it. you would go to your xwrafb saying no, i didn't. >> after time, adrian gave in and said i'm not going to say in he was innocent. i think he finally admitted after so long a time, prolonged time of being interrogated, but if that's what it takes, and i guess they've done it for a long time, i guess that's the way to do it. >> these are all the neighs
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jurors. >> what is leaning towards not guilty. >> how come? >> there was definitely too much reasonable doubt. >> there was enough reasonable doubt. >> defense using medical expert after medical spirit to convince the jury to blame infection. >> that was strong evidence showing how infected the baby was with the bacteria. >> sea monster inaken", bruce. it looks like he's going to go with a nine iron. that may not be enough club... well he's definitely going to lose a stroke on this hole. if you're a golf commentator, you whisper. it's what you do. if you want to save fifteen percent or more on car insurance, you switch to geico. it's what you do. this golf course is electric...
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my psoriatic arthritis i'm caused joint pain.o golfer. just like my moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis. and i was worried about joint damage. my doctor said joint pain from ra can be a sign of existing joint damage that could only get worse. he prescribed enbrel to help relieve pain and help stop further damage. enbrel may lower your ability to fight infections. serious, sometimes fatal, events including infections, tuberculosis, lymphoma, other cancers, nervous system and blood disorders and allergic reactions have occurred. tell your doctor if you've been someplace
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where fungal infections are common, or if you're prone to infections, have cuts or sores, have had hepatitis b, have been treated for heart failure, or if you have persistent fever, bruising, bleeding, or paleness. don't start enbrel if you have an infection like the flu. joint pain and damage... can go side by side. ask how enbrel can help relieve joint pain and help stop joint damage. enbrel, the number one rheumatologist-prescribed biologic. . the defense table is farther from the jury than the prosecution table. i thought she said not guilty. she said it softly. someone said guilty. i said, i don't believe it. >> adrian thomas' mother
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inconsolable. the jury finding his son's actions were cause of his baby's death. perhaps it was the dramatics that convinced the jury. >> we had wooden heads and stone hearts in that jury. simple as that. >> there were several things you could say to someone who would say i would never confess falsely. one thing you could say is, you don't know that. maybe you don't have any idea of what interrogation is really like and how you would behave. >> i wish we could have presented his testimony and let the jury decide whether he had things to add to the case or not. we'll never know how that might have impacted them. >> it would have been insulting. you sawed video. you could tell he was guilty. >> this could be my son or my
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brother. you want to convict someone on impressions, hunches and noigss, there is nothing a lawyer can do to stop you. none of these things are evidence. >> you are not going to be 100%, but you've got to be close to that 100% to find him guilty. what is close enough to that 100%. is there any little doubt? there's always that little bit of doubt, but it's not enough. it's not enough. we had to convict him. >> it's easy to be tricked. it's easy to sit down and talk with a police officer. if you are a person who don't commit crimes, you're an honest person, you talk with him. what do you have to hide?
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nothing. when you're bombarded hours, nothing, 15, 20 minutes, talking about hours with questions back-to-back, you know it's not the truth. i know it's not the truth. so i'm going to repeat what you're saying back to you. therefore, if you keep repeating telling me, i'm not going to be arrested, i'm going home tonight over and over, hey, let's get this over with so i can go about my business and see my son. i'm very, very angry. not just of myself from repeating from somebody else's mouth, but i'm mad at detective mason, fountain, the other officers that came in. i'm mad at those three because think kept pressuring me to go in and lie. it's a traumatic experience.
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it's nothing that i ever experienced in my life. why lie to do your job? that would be the question. why would you have to lie to do your job? no. i didn't kill my son. no. i didn't do those things that was stated. but yes, i don't know what happened to my son. when i was sitting down with the police that night in the police station. that is the truth. that is the real truth. >> if a february 2014 decision, the new york state court of appeals found the interrogation procedures coercive and the confession involuntary. they said it raised a substantial risk of false conviction. a jury found adrian not guilty in the retrial and was released
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the same day. he spent nearly six years in prison in jail. due to mature subject matter, viewer discretion is advised. i don't pray with bibles, i pray with false idols, smith & wesson and being suicidal, i have no enemies, just deceased rivals. >> no matter the circumstances that brought them to jail. >> i was walking my dog, had a pistol at my head. >> she said we were making out
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