ceilings, behind furniture, when you're told to take cover, when told to lock down, especially when you can hear what you understand to be gunshots, people will do whatever they can to hide and some of them, it tough to convince them that it's safe to come out and that it's law enforcement. >> it doesn't take long, brian, for these stories to become somewhat political for people to start weighing in with their points of view. we've gotten word that hillary clinton, out on the campaign trail, was asked about the tragedy today. she said, it is just beyond my comprehension that we're seeing these mass murders happen again and again and again, and as i have said, we've got to get the political will to do everything we can to keep people safe. i know there's a way have sensible gun control measures that help prevent violence, prevent guns from getting into the wrong hands, and save lives. and i'm committed to doing that. also, some very strong words

coming from the former attorney general, eric holder, who was attorney general up until recently, on his twitter account saying, enough, now oregon, what reason now to oppose safety measures? >> 5:00 hour here in the east. this is normally the time slot of our friend and colleague chuck todd. but we are in live rolling coverage of this horrible, latest mass casualty event that the nation is coming to grips with. it was 10:38 local time this morning in oregon, when the first 911 call went out from a community college. the death toll, we're now reporting, at 13, though we have reason to hope that that number perhaps goes down with some good news. over 20 wounded. the gunman, a 20-year-old male killed in an exchange of gunfire with police. it is, like so many other community colleges, mostly populated by older part-time

students but there's, of course, a student body of 3,000 who just graduated from high school this past september and have started their studies there. the fall semester really in its fourth day. joined on the telephone by kenny ungerman. you're a student. full or part time? how old are you? >> full-time student, i'm 25. >> and tell me what you saw today, including any contact you had with the gunman. >> i was -- let's see, i was outside snyder hall, in my jeep, talking to a national guard recruiter and we heard a gunshot. so we looked up, and for a quick second i saw the gunman with a small caliber handgun, then he went in towards snyder hall. i heard three, four shots, me and the recruiter got behind my jeep and heard more shots.

>> is it common for a national guard recruiter to be on campus? >> the reason why he was on campus was he thought there was -- i forget what it's called -- he had a meeting there, i believe, why he was there. >> and can you describe the gunman for us? >> i saw a 20-year-old white male, i saw number jeans, it was quick before he went off towards the hallway. >> he didn't look familiar to you, like anyone you shared a class with? >> not -- no, he didn't. >> and what -- you said he was shooting at first with a small caliber handgun who was he engaging with? was he -- was he firing his way into a building? >> i was in the parking lot, i saw it quickly, i saw him fire right at the corner, i'm guessing he was firing at a student in the hallway. i didn't see him shoot anyone. i was in the parking lot, i had

a blocked view. i heard multiple gunshots, people screaming he's shooting, get out of there. >> this recruiter, was he armed and in uniform. >> he was in uniform, not armed. he was there for a meeting. he was not armed. >> and then, tell us what happened after you heard the rounds go off inside. >> so we hear a few more rounds off. we were behind my jeep. we got up, we hopped in the vehicle, we went down the road, we got out of the vehicle and stopping traffic from getting into the college. >> and as far as you knew, that's when law enforcement started descending on the campus? >> yes. when we were down the road, we were stopping traffic, within two, three minutes of us doing that, osp was on scene. >> and have you yet told law enforcement that you're a witness to at least you saw a shred of the guy? >> i called the sheriff's office

and left a number. i was told they'd be contacting me shortly. >> so there's a possibility, because you only saw him briefly and for a distance, that perhaps you had him in a class, perhaps you encountered him somewhere else, i guess? >> it's a possibility. i see so many faces around ucc. but as far as i know, i didn't recognize him. i just heard the gunshot go off and my military training just told me to get to the ground and help as many people as possible. >> you're a veteran yourself? >> correct. navy. >> okay. and how many years? when did you first go? >> i was in the navy four years starting 2009. i got out in 2013, to pursue my career choice of being emt and a firefighter. >> and you're from that area? >> born and raised in roseburg. >> tell us what else, you've obviously been in touch with

friends of yours to make sure, do you have anyone unaccounted for in your life? >> not right now. i got a hold of all of my friends through facebook and through the phone. right now i don't know any of the victims, i heard a few names from friends, not that i'd want to release. as of now, all of my friends are account for. >> how about instructors, did you have any in the building. >> yes, an english teacher in the one of the classrooms there. >> have you heard anything else about what might be motivation, where this might have culminated? >> i have not. >> can you believe this happened at your community college with a 20-year-old student? >> it's crazy to think this would happen. i was also at roseburg high school when that shooting happened back in i think 2006. so it's crazy to think that i've -- i'd be on campus when

another shooting happened. >> that's unbelievable, a tranlic story of modern day america. though your military deployment was perfectly safe for you? >> correct. yes, it was. >> thank you very much, kenny ungerman for being with us. i hope you share your story with law enforcement and an incredible turn of events at this campus we're looking at from the air where apparently 13 have been killed by a 20-year-old man. since killed in an exchange of gunfire with police. kate snow is here with us. >> brian, i am at a loss for words. that young man survived two different campus shootings. what does that say? as you say, about the state of our country right now. and that's what a lot of people are weighing in on right now on social media, we're getting statements from many, many politicians and lawmakers, you know, many with thoughts of prayers and thinking of the

victims. but some from mainly democrats, saying that we need to assess what's going on in this country. as you know, we haven't gotten much more information about the shooter. we know he's a 20-year-old man. we don't know if he was a student at college campus at time. we've seen pictures on an endless loop of law enforcement with dogs, k-9 units going into the parking lot, checking certain cars. that's from earlier this afternoon, i believe, i think we're rolling tape now. >> yes. >> as opposed to live images. and we're just waiting for more information. you can imagine the families trying to reunite with their children right now. some young children, some older, but it doesn't matter. people who are separated from each other are running to each other now. we talked to a student a little while ago in her 20s who said she was on a bus being bussed out to the fair grounds, which is where they're taking all of the uninjured people and she

could see her looking out the window, she could see her family and her sister crying. >> this picture of people being with their hands on their heads, remember, when law enforcement first arrived, even if it's a hostage situation and they see you being released, you are kind of considered suspect until you're cleared. and even when you have been through a trauma, when you run out of a building where guns have been fired, and arriving law enforcement don't know that you're friendly because it's a hostile environment. we're joined by oregon state senator jeff cruz. is this your district? >> yes, it is. >> what can you tell us to add to what we already know? >> well, i don't think we'll get a whole lot more information probably relative, which i think is appropriate. i think the state police and county sheriffs really do have

the situation under control. but as you all know, they have got a lot of evidence to sort through, a lot of triage to do and i think it's very appropriate that they are going to wait until they have a lot more facts before they start releasing information. for example, you know, shooter himself, they've got to contact family and, first of all, probably to determine whether he's part of a larger group. so or if he's doing this alone, that sort of thing. i also know that a lot of the victims, a lot of college students, didn't have i.d. on them. so they have a lot of work to do to identify victims, as well. so, i expect it will be a bit of time before we start getting any definitive information. >> of course, it means 14 area families getting horrible news

tonight. and it also means something less urgent but no less true. and that is that roseburg will now become one of those names. your state senate district will be one of those places we always equate with a mass casualty event. >> it is. and you know, you know, on one hand, the first report i heard was that shooter had been taken into custody, which i was hoping would happen. obviously, it's no the what did happen because now, as far as what was in his mind and what led him to this, is going to be speculation because we can't get a firsthand report on it. but this is -- you never expect things like this in your community. >> and you know nothing more to

add to the portrait of this 20-year-old. we don't know if he was an active current student, full or part time, or anything about motivation? >> no, we don't. and quite honestly, i think it's appropriate that law enforcement is not releasing information until they have a clearer picture of things. there's been too many times when things like this happen and you get information out there's an accident and things like that. i think it's appropriate that we wait until they have had a chance to do their full investigation before we start releasing details. >> i understand. i agree with that. jeff kruse, state senator from oregon, our condolences for the people in your district and the whole nation is watching this story, this horrible tragedy unfold from the state of oregon.

thank you, senator, for being with ups our viewer may have seen a fleeting camera shot of some vehicles in this road outside campus near what look like interchange with the i-5. and it was something that could conceivably have been a bomb disposal unit on a flatbed truck. would make perfect sense one would be called for to be on standby as they search the parking lot. it would not mean that an explosive had been found on the premises. kate snow? >> i'm trying to come up with something new for you, brian. it is the same information that we have been reporting. but i do have one new note from a sophomore who was in class near the snyder building that we've been talking about, the scene of the shooting, 19-year-old sophomore emily farmer. she says she was in the science building, having a normal class, we heard a couple of noises like

gunshots coming from the area of the snyder building. we didn't think they were gunshots. carried on with collapse a classmate got a text message from her father saying there's been a shooting. the teacher locked the door and called security and they were put on lockdown. one of many stories we've been hearing -- this happens every time, unfortunately there's a mass shooting we get similar stories of people hearing things and thinking it's a car backfiring or thinking it can't possibly be gunshots yet again and it is. for this time, weave been saying all afternoon, you can tell from the pictures, this is not a large urban area. this is a smaller city in a rural part of oregon, beautiful part offer orman, southwestern oregon, rocking the entire community. you can hear it in the voice of the local sheriff who we listened to a short time ago. >> clint van zandt is listening and following this with us. clint, this is any town usa, you name it, the last thing they were expecting their name to be associated with, just like the

folks in aurora, colorado, just like the folks in columbine or sandy hook. >> well, you know, brian, i was sitting here thinking, as you were talking, not only do the students wake up and those on campus wake up not expecting this, but the first responders don't either. you had the press conference with the local sheriff and he used the term engaged, which you rightfully explained as law enforcement officers came on campus, the guy had a gun in his hand and they shot him and killed him. that was the engagement that took place. but again, these officers, more than likely, had never been in a gun battle in their life. so this was probably the most traumatic stressful event that not only they but the students, but the faculty, but the parents. but everybody in that community experienced. and unfortunately, you ride a bike for the first time, and then you get better at it.

but as one of your pryor guests indicated, this is the second time he's been on campus when a shooting took place. the other one was -- you and i talked about -- in 2006 at the local high school where one freshman student shot another student. your guest had been there for that, too. so this terrible deja vu of being there when it happens, you know, again, you and i have talked. you being the firefighting and first responding experience you had, and i carried a gun for 25 years as an fbi agent, you train, you train, you train for that moment. but when that moment comes, it happens in the flashing of an eye, and you -- all you have is your training to respond to. but what about the victims in the classroom? what about the professors and teachers? do they have a similar type of training to respond to a crisis situation? it's a terrible thought that back in the '50s, we had to

train to get under our desk in case the russians were dropping nuclear bombs on us. now we have to train to barricade doors in case a 20-year-old person is coming through that door shooting at us. >> it's unbelievable, clint. of course, the randomness of it, underscores the fact that the clear majority of law enforcement personnel retire, whether it's 20 and out or after a 30-year career, having never discharged their weapons, go through life, even in the business and never have to discharge your weapon, never have to defend your life or take down a suspect. and then you're going to community college, morning class, four days into the new academic year, in a beautiful spot in rural oregon, and this happens. if that isn't the definition of random, i don't know what is. >> what it does, brian, for many of us, you know, whether it's in a community college, a movie

theater, in our workplace every day, it puts you in a what if mode. i work with a lot of my clients on violence and workplace issues, and you have to consider what if. what if somebody comes through that door and they are a shooter? what do you do? how do you defend yourself? what are the choices? do you run? do you hide? do you fight back? you have to make those decisions in a matter of seconds. and for most people, they haven't thought that through, what they would do. last thing you want is that deer in headlights stare facing down the barrel of a gun. those are the things that, unfortunately, many of us have to think through and decide if i'm faced with a similar situation, what would i do? and as we witnessed today, even though these students may have try the same, run, hide, many of them, nonetheless, died. >> of course, these all end with

the statement by us, that the president has been briefed on this latest shooting and that is the case today. president obama was briefed by his aides on this latest shooting. chris jansing standing by at the white house. chris, it's not like this hasn't been a part of the national conversation. >> no, it's been a huge part of the national conversation for this president, as you mentioned. national security adviser briefed him on the shooting and he has to get updates regularly throughout the day. but my producer and i were putting together a list of just the mass shootings where the president has traveled to speak and take that role that is such a terrible role, which is consoler in chief, by my count, at least seven times that has happened for him, most recently, of course, in charleston. but the navy yard shooting, after the tucson shooting, of course gabby gifford was so seriously injured.

twice he traveled to ft. hood, to aurora, colorado, and sandy hook, of course for the new town shooting. so there is that familiarity. but there is also a terrible frustration in this white house and with the president, very specifically there was a very strong feeling in the aftermath of sandy hook, in particular, that there might be some movement on some of the issues that the president had talked about as a candidate. and they felt particularly that closing the gun show loophole might be somewhere they could get movement because poles at the time showed even republicans were in favor of that. but that has not happened. on the campaign trail today we heard from hillary clinton who said in reaction to what we've been seeing today, in oregon, that she is committed to, you know, sensible changes. but that has, as i said, been a source of great frustration. and just one more point i would

make, brian, to the familiarity that you and kate have been talking about. i was reminded that, when i was covering the shooting in aurora, colorado, which was just, i think, 16 miles away from columbine, which i also covered, that i spoke to some of the same people, the father of someone killed at columbine who, 13 years later, came and though for some people, there is a sort of a familiarity to it for the people who have been very personally and deeply affected, their lives changed for ever. it is a horrible familiarity and it brings it all back. and like the president, for them, frustration, because many of them have been determined to take what their loss has been and try to turn it into something positive. and as i've kept in touch with many of them over the last dozen-plus year they feel a constant sense of frustration. that the movement they would

like to see has not quite happened. brian, i would think that it's possible we would get a paper statement, perhaps, from the president. but, as you know, they like to make sure that they have all of the facts and, as i think i heard pete williams reporting earlier, because of the remoteness of the location, it's difficult for federal agents to get there. i would think that before we hear anything specifically in paper form from the president, he will have to hear from the scene itself. >> chris jansing, at the white house. just part of the reaction of this tragedy today. kate snow, anything new? >> well there is a bit of confusion over the numbers. we've been saying, we've been reporting all afternoon, perhaps 13 deceased, based on an interview earlier with the attorney general of oregon. and then confirmed later by federal law enforcement official sources, by pete williams. pete williams now saying the death toll may be revised

downward, which may be excellent news if we can report that. also new numbers on the number of people hospitalized. we're being told 12 at mercy medical center and a few more, we believe, at sacred heart. i've been misstating where it's located. it's in springfield, oregon. we are expecting about seven minutes from now a briefing. i don't know if we'll be able to carry that live but i know there's a brifiefing coming at half hour at sacred heart. >> let's hope that that death toll number gets revised downward. that would be a rare piece of good news today. we keep showing you the scene. this is the closest, most media can get. an area, you can almost picture it, driving on interstate 5, and the exit would give roseburg, the name of the next town. there's a state police barracks at the exit.

and there's also this a community college serves about 16,000 total students offering a testimony of programs but mostly two-year associate degree. a lot of nursing students, students in the arts. about 3,000 of them are full time, mostly community colleges serve part time students, adult students in this country. now we look at it through aerial shots of investigators are, law enforcement personnel arriving where there's been a terrible mass casualty event. as kate said, so far, death toll still stands at 13 with approximately 20 injured. and the next briefing, at the bottom of the hour, we are going to try to fit in a break here. ta take a breath, gather more facts and continue with our coverage of this tragedy in rural oregon

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we are back. we're continuing to cover the tragedy at this community college in state of oregon. we're still reporting a death toll of 13, and 20 wounded. it happened at 10:38 a.m. local time on the west coast this morning. aerial pictures are showing law enforcement descending on the scene. all of this courtesy of our nbc station kgw. msnbc has arrived and the scene, as well. he is outside the entrance and standing by for us. jacob, tell us what you've seen so far. >> reporter: good afternoon, from here in oregon, brian, at intersection of highway 99 and umpqua college road, as close as any of us are able to get at the moment to the entrance to the

university. standing directly across the street from the douglas county sheriffs who are positioned here in the intersection with the oregon state police. they seem to have a check point set up here. as i was driving south on the i-5 from portland here towards douglas county, passed by several law enforcement vehicles, lights, sirens, full package going on the way down to the college campus. >> what do you think will happen next? are you going to get another briefing where you are or think you'll be transported somewhere else? >> reporter: it looks like, for now, at this location, they're controlling people that are going in and out of what is very obviously a crime scene, we've got police tape up here in the intersection and as soon as we can get a picture up, we'll bring you that as well, brian. >> jacob, thank you. we'll take that as soon as it's available. we'll check back in. courtney rennie, back with us, the student on the phone. courtney, last we spoke, you

were getting off the bus to be reunited with your family. how did that go? what more have you learned? >> it was -- it was incredibly emotional. my sister crying and students that i know that go out there. i was just really amazed how the community came together, you know. it just felt really real, as soon as i got off the bus, that this just happened. people just lost their lives. it's just overwhelming. >> yeah, we just talked to a 25-year-old, four-year navy veteran, came back, he was born and raised there, he's going to community college there. he caught a glimpse of this 20-year-old gunman, not a guy he recognized from any of his classes. but we're going to be hearing stories like that for the rest of today and into tomorrow and for weeks to come. what else -- have you run into

anyone who has said anything anecdotally, knew him, witnessed anything? do you have -- is there anyone you've heard of who isn't accounted for? >> no. the only thing that i've heard about, the shooter is -- he said something on a social media site that's not facebook, that not to go to school. i don't have anybody in my life as far as right now goes that's unaccounted for. i did hear that a writing teacher was shot in the head and i'm just really hoping that that wasn't my writing teacher. so i'm just -- i don't know. i'm a little bit in shock right now. >> i'm sure you are. i'm sure the whole community college community is. what are you studying there? >> i'm studying human services. >> okay. courtney, thank you.

this has been a hugely traumatic day and thanks for agreeing to be in touch with us again. so happy you've been reunited with your family. >> anything to help. >> courtney, thank you. kate snow, back with us. >> glad she's okay. as a parent, it's hard, it's hard to hear these kids talk about what it's like and to be on campus and experience that firsthand. we appreciate her comments. she brought up a couple of things that we should note, have not been confirmed by nbc news. there are rumors, if you're on social media, you've seen them. rumors about maybe there was something posted last night. the local sheriff was asked about that, whether the shooter posted something on social media. we're aware of that at nbc news and trying to check into it but we're being very careful about what we put on television, trying to verify things before we put them out there. >> that's right. we need a positive i.d. on the

gunman, which will come from authorities. remember, next of kin have to be notified here. that's a total of 14 families, the gunman and his 13 victims. we have revised the number of patients under treatment to 12 at mercy medical center, that is the nearest hospital to the community college. i know there's been a lot of repetition of the video you see rolling in the screen next to me. i know there's been a lot of repetition of the facts. but the fact remains that, going into tonight, in this community in oregon, police officers are going to inform families of the worst possible news. most of them will be showing up at a -- at this fair grounds, meaning they haven't been able to be in touch with their loved ones, and law enforcement will intercept them there.

a lot of people are going to have be questioned. there are witnesses to this. we spoke to one man who got a fleeting glimpse of the gunman and there's a lot of work to be done into tonight. we may not know a whole lot more. >> we're getting in now some of the police transmissions, radio traffic, that happened at the time of the shooting. again, this morning, in oregon, time zone. i think we have those transmissions that we can roll and hear what was happening as this was all unfolding. >> shots, he's in a classroom on the -- it's going to be southeast side of snyder hall. >> gunshots right out in with a male in the classroom on the southeast side of snyder hall. >> so that's -- those were the broadcasts, those were the transmissions on police radios happening about 10:38 a.m. pacific time in oregon this

morning. umpqua community college, as things were unfolding. you can hear the tension in the voices, brian. >> i'm told we have one more 911 call now. >> ucc, this is going to be the snyder hall, somebody is outside one of the doors shooting through the door. there is a female in the computer lab. we do have one female that has been shot at this time. we're still trying to get anything further. >> that's where the first report came in, a female shot. pete williams, our justice correspondent, in our washington bureau. pete, anything to add from your national sources? >> reporter: a couple of things, brian. one obviously, the number of victims here is of great interest. and the number is still unconfirmed at this point. federal law enforcement officials had told us they were told by the local authorities earlier this afternoon that they believe that number was 13. now they say it may be

fortunately lower than that. this may be the result of double counting as people relay what they have seen to the central command post. it's possible that more than one law enforcement person reported the same victim so that the number may be lower than 13, the law enforcement officials out there have declined so far to give a specific number. we have been told earlier 13. now the people we're talking to say they believe the number's going to probably turn out to be 10. but we still can't say defendive intive definitivety what it is until they process the scene and get a list of names. this is interesting in the sense that the one thing that has changed, undoubtedly be calls for gun control changes, for perhaps states to revisit their laws on allowing guns on campus, for example, in oregon, students with the proper papers can carry consealed weapons.

we don't know whether that played any role at all, either in students responding to the gunman or the gunman getting gunned on the campus. apparently more than one gun we're told by a couple of officials. that's one thing. and of course, calls for better mental health treatment. one thing that has definitely changed since weave seen the school shootings and mass shootings over the years, the nature of the law enforcement response. if you think back to columbine, the instructions to the initial responding officers were to wait until the more heavily armed equipped and trained s.w.a.t. teams arrived. that was then. this is now. now law enforcement word is get, in engage the gunman, try to get it over with quickly. the roseburg police have actually talked about planning this sort of thing before, because nine years ago there was a shooting at the high school, at roseburg high school, a

freshman shot another student who ended up surviving the attack but it got authorities there thinking about how to deal with these mass shootings. the roseburg police thought about it. this community college thought about it. and made better plans. you saw some of those plans today. later this month, the fbi will be sending a movie style video to the nation's police emphasizing the need to plan and rehearse how to respond to these things, how, for example, to marshall the forces that arrive. you see what happened today. everybody, as the police said earlier, everybody drops everything and goes. how do you best marshall those forces? how do you get an organization put together quickly so that you send people to the right place without sending too many people to the same place, you get them distributed where they need to be. you keep channels clear for ambulances to be able to get in and out, you find a way to either evacuate people or get them locked down in place.

that's definitely something that has changed through the unfortunately very sad experience of having gone through this before. >> pete, it is true, it also puts a burden on those first through the door officers. you can be a deputy sheriff in oregon, you have to hope that your marksman ship skills are up to snuff, that you're wearing your vest that you're ready to go. the old philosophy is, as you point out, waiting for the s.w.a.t. team members who are armored up who are wearing body armor, helmets and have automatic weapons, that's just not going to be the case anymore. >> right. and we saw that, for example, here, brian, in the response to the navy yard shooting here in washington a couple of years ago where there was a quick response, get people in there. it was people from the park service police, for example, who

responded and immediately confronted the gunman. and it does sound, from the police description like the gunman was confronted by police quickly. what they haven't been skre clear about here, we don't know, whether the gunman was shot and killed by police, whether the confrontation forced the gunman to shoot himself. we don't know the answer to that. but the point is, they didn't just stand around and wait for somebody else to come. they immediately got in there and undoubtedly saved lived. >> yeah, it sounds like he was shot as a result of fire from the officers, the way they worded, engaged the suspect, suspect killed as opposed to taking his own life but i guess there's a way we wouldn't know that right away. it's enough to know that he's a 20-year-old male. pete, we've been through so many of these and as clint van zandt has been saying, these follow a pattern.

there's every reason to believe that in the next 12 to 24 hours, that pattern will leave us to where this young person was living, that pattern will leave us to postings on social media, perhaps writings and on and on and on. >> right. it is sadly familiar. just this year, for example, brian, we were going through the figures here, just this year, just 2015, there have been 41 incidents of gunfire on american campuses, nine people have died until before today as a result of those shootings. now we're leaving out those cases where students commit suicide on campus. traditionally through the years, we've never included those in our counts of school shootings. but it's -- 41 so far this year. it's a very large number. >> a huge number, in fact. pete williams in our washington bureau, gathering what he can.

remember, as we said, this is very local work that will be taking place tonight. finding and breaking the news to next of kin, loved ones. if the death toll indeed holds at 13, let's hope that this initial reporting is right and that number can be revised down because of people who were counted more than once. we'll take a break here in our coverage. we'll continue to cover this tragedy at the community college in oregon right after this. #

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welcome back to our coverage. roseburg, oregon, just like every other american community up until 10:38 this morning when

the local community college, the first of a bunch of calls to 911, reported shots fired. that indeed was the case, a 20-year-old gunman is dead. the death toll has run as high as 13 from his victims. we are hoping that number gets revised down. we're jones on the telephone from aurora, oregon, by michael griffith, ceo of life flight network. he says -- they say they have sent at least six aircraft to aid victims at this community college today. michael, is that right, about a half dozen? >> that's correct. >> and how many patients did you end up transporting? >> we've only transported one patient from the local hospital but we have aircraft at the airport down in roseburg waiting to transport additional patiented. >> these are all patients who have been through the first stop which is at mercy, the local hospital? >> that's correct. >> and these aircraft all have

medics on board? >> they all have critical care flight nurses, as well as critical care paramedics on board. >> what was the first word, you're alerted by hospitals or law enforcement that your hardware may be neated? >> in this particular case, first notified by the local fire departments as well as law enforcement that the shooting was ongoing just before 11:00 pacific. and within 15 minutes, we had six aircraft in the air responding. >> and it goes without saying, you would have rather transported more patients than you did except some of them became casualties? >> yes. unfortunately the death toll was higher than what anybody would want and we were not able to transport as many patients as we hoped. but there still are some, i believe, in the operating room, as we speak. >> do you have any information

you can share about the patient you did transport? >> other than he was a 34-year-old male and he was critically injured and taken immediately into surgery at the trauma center. last word i had he was still in the operating room. >> let's pull for him as we -- as we have all day for all of the wounded. thank you very much for being with us, jim cavanaugh remains with us, atf veteran himself and an analyst for us at msnbc and nbc news. jim, you've had time to think about this and we've been lamenting all day, this starts to follow a kind of sad march sequence that all of these mass shootings follow. >> right, brian. collectively, as a country, we're all in this together. we've got to take the steps to do better, our heart goes out to

everyone out there. this is a hurting community now with whatever that number turns out to be, this i awful. up yards of 30 people shot for no reason at all by a 20-year-old male. what is the reason behind this? we talk about mental illness. and that may very well be involved. but there's also elements sometimes of just revenge and suicide. you know, young people who can't deal with life, i mean they get a setback in life and then they can't deal with it. and you and i in our generation, we've all dealt with our parents who had many setbacks in life and taught us, you've got to get over them. young people who can't get over them it may not be a full-blown mental illness. somebody can get kicked oust a class or expelled or fail. look at virginia tech shooter, was failing. he had mental illness and was failing and sought revenge on campus. there's a lot of issues here for the nation to deal with. we got to learn we really got to learn from every time and there's still a lot of work to

be done by law enforcement. there was a lot of successes there today by the students, the faculty, and the police that you've described in your reporting this as you so well pointed out it's not always s.w.a.t. that does the first engagement. it's uniform patrol. if you can locate the gunman for the uniformed patrol officer they can engage the gunman. students were given that location and faculty was given that location. this blood bath we're all existing through but we are all trying to make steps to survive

and be better and to stop this at each point along the line fr from, like i said, the first. >> how sad if raising our kids in this country is going to need to include it's not a backfire. it's not a firecracker. it's a gun. and try to gps your mind into if you ever have to describe where a suspect is, if you ever have to describe a suspect be exact about it for first responders. that's tragic. >> well, it's critical. listen, so many students and faculty did the right thing. in the midwest this week a principal was shot, stabt the the stant principal and coach who tackled the gunman. people are reacting quickly and trying to do the best they can. many of the students did here as well. they escaped. they called the police they located the shooter. maybe, you know, these other

victims couldn't be saved. of course, they couldn't. this guy got on top of them so fast. some could. it's tragic we've got to do that but we're doing it. we're doing better at it. it's awful to say. but each one of us needs an individual plan, an individual plan in your mind, how you're going to react and act, what you're going to do. you need a collective plan, with a classroom, with your campus. you have to have a plan with the city, the county. the law enforcement needs a plan and the nation need ace plan. state needs a plan. the nation need ace plan. if you go in there with no personal plan it's not the time to think of it when the shots are fired. if the classroom doesn't have a plan to barricade the doors, shut the windows, call the location of the shooter in, that's no good. you need a plan. the campus needs a plan to alert everybody, et cetera. you can talk about it a long time. that's waet it has to go through. each step can save lives and each step we can interrupt along

the line of mental health, gun control, planning for people who can't deal with life's setbacks, security on the campus, locking doors. things that spot the shooters through acoustics and cameras, right weapons for police, trained police. we can go all up and down. we can reduce it. i don't know that we can ever totally eliminate it. the killers go to where we gather. movie theater, campus, the school, the business. they go to where we gather. and when they can get a crowd. that's what they're looking for. that's where they go. and we're going to find out, i think today, later, that this guy -- there were some signs that he planned it, that he had gotten a gun or two, or more. and went there with quite a bit of ammunition and fired a lot of rounds, 30, 60, a lot of rounds, maybe more. and maybe planning on suicide all along. and may have even shot himself when law enforcement officers engaged him. >> that's right. you're seeing at the bottom of

your screen president obama will make a statement approximately 6:20 from the white house. as the president is forced to react to yet another mass casualty event in this country. kate snow? >> couple of new details, brian. we're getting a briefing right now from sacred heart medical center in river bend, oregon, one of the hospitals that took -- secondarily took victims from the scene. they have three victims there. here is the stunning part. among those three victims there are something between 18 and 34 gunshot wounds in those three victims. so, this is clearly a horrific scene. not just a mass shooting, but just -- i don't even know how to describe it. just a devastating, devastating shooting with multiple, multiple wounds in each victim. and the other hospital, mercy

hospital, which is right in town, are saying people are in surgery being treated as we speak. this is such a fluid situation, brian, in terms of who is wounded and, unfortunately, how many deceased we have. >> jim carve gnaw, if that comes true, that these victims each have between -- >> between the three of them, 18 to 34 gunshot wounds. >> anything we can surmise from that? does that mean a small caliber? what does that mean? >> it means a lot of ammunition. maybe a backpack full of ammunition. he could have had a weapon, more than a handgun. he could have had a rifle with a short stock or something like that. he could have had a shotgun. he could have done a lot of killing inside. the witness that you had on early, that might not have been

his only weapon or a weapon he used later. we don't have all the facts. with 33 victims, with three alone having that many wounds and that many rounds, 18 to 34 rounds, there's a whole lot of ammunition been fired in this event before law enforcement could get there. a whole lot of ammunition. and we also know from your reporting and all day there's proximity. proximity to the victims because he's inside the hall. maybe inside the classroom. like i said earlier, like emmanuel church, virginia tech or newtown, you have proximity inside, lot of rounds and you cause mass death. that's what he wanted to do. that's what he did, in fact. he was successful in his awful plot that he wanted to kill a lot of people. he had a lot of ammo. number of rounds will be large in this. it's not hard to carry that many in a backpack, a little case. you could probably stuff your pockets or jacket full as well and carry more than you could think one magazine could hold

30, 60, 100, depending on what you've got. >> kate snow? >> there's a facebook post. people are starting to put things out on social media. from a professor who was inside, in the classroom, she says that shares a common wall with the classroom where the shooting began. i can't say on tv what her next words are. but it's an expletive and she says i have no cell phone, car keys, house keys or wallet but i'm home. so glad to be safe. so clearly there was a lot going on in that classroom next door to her. she said she's still shell shocked and also notes that the security, administrative staff stayed organized under incredible pressure. so it sounds like they did have at least some amount of planning and knew how to respond. >> we are covering a number of stories. to be perfectly candid, we went on the air hours ago at the end of another special report, which was about the weather, of all

things. it was about hurricane joaquin and speculation as to the route it's going to take in the atlantic. and it was about the fact that an unrelated weather system, simultaneous weather system is about to mean real punishment for the east coast of the united states. wind, rain, high tides like a hurricane, regardless of what the hurricane plans are. we came on the air with this news. terrible news out of oregon. a death toll we are still figuring out, perhaps as high as 13. and in the past few minutes, we've learned of another sad story out of afghanistan where a c-130 transport plane, an american transport plane, has apparently gone down. that is all we know. and our pentagon national security producer couis making

way to a camera. that is a picture of a c-130. it's a very commonly used workhorse of a transport plane for prop engines. anyone who has been deployed in these past two conflicts, iraq and afghanistan, there's a very great chance they spent some time on a c-130. again, we'll wait and find out the circumstances of this crash. we talked to pete williams about this. we're hoping because of double reporting of some names as fatalities that perhaps maybe we can revise this death toll down to 13. we set it at 13. after we interviewed the attorney general of oregon. her own people, her own sources

in that state have reported 13 souls lost their lives today, plus the gunman would make 14. the gunman is said to have been shot after engaging in fire with police who were responding to the shooting. we have also heard the initial 911 calls. to police who exited the college and heard the firing going on. the scene is inactive after the gunman was put down, after it was learned he apparently acted alone. as kate snow reported any number of things on social media. some of them true, some of them will turn out not to be true. but it's a scary situation and, as we keep