it's the place where lies unravel and alibis crumble. >> why wouldn't you abduct them? tell me that. >> the interrogation room or as cops call it, the box. >> remember, he doesn't like you, he doesn't trust you, and he doesn't respect you. you've got to overcome those three things before you're going to get a confession. >> in california, a seasoned detective takes us along for a psychological showdown with a suspected serial rapist. >> what was it that pushed you into the idea of forcing sex on women? >> and in arkansas a boy tells us about being 12 and on the other side of the table.

>> you killed your sister. >> i didn't kill her. i didn't. >> they automatically assumed i was this demonic little kid. >> i didn't kill my sister. i wouldn't kill her. >> leave me alone. >> now go where cases can be made or broken. >> msnbc takes you "inside the box." >> april 21st, 1999, homicide detective leads rex krebs into the box or interview room. at police headquarters in san luis obispo.

a college town just off california's central coast. >> it's been my experience that many, many investigators when they go in to do an interview or interrogation, they don't have a plan set up ahead of time. they sit down, they start talking, they wing it. first thing you have to do is develop some type of report or they're not going to talk to you at all. >> hobson for the district attorney's office makes sure krebs' handcuffs immediately come off. >> you sit down to talk with someone about a serious crime, the worst thing you can do is keep reminding him of possible consequences. handcuffs are consequences. having a gun exposed where he can see it is a consequence. a badge -- a badge on your belt. they all represent confinement. he's going to go to prison.

and you don't want that. >> have you ever met rachel and aundria? >> krebs has been in custody for some 30 days. since police found a bb gun at his job. a violation of his parole. but both krebs and his interrogator know that's not why they're here. two young women, students at nearby colleges, have gone missing. one taken off the street, the other from her home in the middle of the night. police suspect the women have fallen victim to a sexual predator. >> the county had a lot of people that had been convicted of sex offenses and just about any one of them could have done something like this. >> rex krebs is one of dozens of sex offenders interviewed by police.

he and hobson have been talking for weeks. since krebs' parole agent notifies the task force there's a parallel between the way the women apparently vanished and the suspect's past. >> back in may 1987, he committed a rape. he had broken through the bathroom window. and at the end of that crime, he hog tied the victim and left the residence. i'll never forget this. he said to the victim have a nice day. >> krebs served ten years for the rape as well as another sexual assault. now investigator hobson believes it's time to interview krebs on camera hoping to extract a confession and find the college students. rachel newhouse and aundria crawford. >> if you were going to do that

crime, and you saw somebody you wanted to abduct -- bear with me here, this is a hypothetical -- that you wanted to abduct and take some place, how would you do it? >> i'm not even going to talk about that. thinking like that is dangerous. >> at this point he's evaluating me as much as i'm evaluating him. i'm watching his nonverbal behavior. it's very open and outgoing. he's very animated with his hands. he's leaning forward on occasion talking. >> hobson realizes it won't be easy to get krebs to confess. but with 28 years of law enforcement experience, the investigator believes he knows the criminal mind. >> why couldn't you be the person that's responsible for rachel and aundria's disappearance? >> why couldn't i be? >> yeah. why wouldn't you abduct them, tell me that. >> because it's not in my

makeup. >> he seems to take him as his word. understanding the mentality that led to his past crimes. >> you're not a bad looking guy. well put together. you were young at the time, 21. probably could have, you know -- in fact, you were engaged, weren't you? what was it at that young age pushed you into the idea of forcing sex on women? >> momma. >> how's that? >> want the whole story? >> yeah. >> i'm not a psychiatrist, psychologist. just trying to get him a talk. want to keep that report going. in an hour or less, i'm going to confront him. >> mom and dad divorced when i was five because mom decided she wanted to drink and [ bleep ] the neighbor guy. >> maybe i'm missing something.

how does this tie into forcing yourself on other women? >> hated women. >> okay. all women or just certain women? >> i think it was pretty much all women. no respect. >> maybe tomorrow, next week, next year, ten years from now, i don't know. we're going to find the person that's responsible for both aundria and rachel's disappearance. what do you think should happen to them when we find him? >> kill him. >> kill him. >> that's a question that i ask almost in any interview or interrogation i do. because it tells you a lot in the answer. most people look at themselves and think what should happen to me for doing this? >> kill him. >> kill him. >> rex kind of surprised me with his answer. coming off right away saying whoever did this should be put

to death. but at the same time he, i think, at that point was believing that we didn't think he did it. >> but police had been to krebs' house and found items he thinks he's hidden. hobson is waiting to turn the interview into an interrogation revealing the secrets and bringing the woman krebs loves into the interrogation room.

san luis obispo county, california, april 21st, 1999. >> i've never disagreed with you guy investigating me. >> hobson interviews rex krebs, a sex offender serving time on a

parole violation. krebs says he knows nothing about the whereabouts of missing college coeds rachel newhouse and aundria crawford. but the investigator will reveal evidence he thinks ties krebs to the disappearances. >> after a two, two and a half hour interview, i confronted him for the very first time. and then it became an interrogation. >> do you want me to touch that and put my fingerprints on it? >> my fingerprints are all over it. >> krebs has kept the trinket in a wooden box in his house. task force members watching from an adjoining room have been told aundria crawford always carried the same key chain. >> rapists will sometimes take items from the victims.

it keeps the memory of the rape and the domination and everything that goes with a rape fresh in their mind so they can relive it. >> he handed it back to me and acted like he didn't know who it belonged to. he was still pretty loose and open. >> one other thing that really jumps out is you only have one jump seat in the back of that truck, right? >> uh-huh. >> what happened to the other one? >> we found that his truck had a jump seat that was missing. eventually we found the jump seat underneath his house way back in the corner. and it was obvious somebody had scrubbed on it trying to clean things up. so we didn't even fool with it. we just packaged it up, sent it off to the crime lab. >> you're familiar with dna, i'm

sure, the results and so forth. and guess whose blood that is? rachel newhouse. >> at that point, rex stopped being animated. he stopped being open. he stopped being talkative. >> it was out of control, right? rex, look at me. it got out of control? rex, tell me what you're thinking. tell me what's going through your head. >> at that point i got concerned because once rex said he wanted an attorney, that means the interview was done. we wouldn't be able to try to recover their bodies or do any follow-up. it was over. and i did not want him to invoke his right to remain silent.

you've got to kind of treat them with kid gloves. >> talk to me. look at me. it's not easy. it's not easy. i know that. he shuts me off verbally, but when i touch him that brings me back to i'm talking to him. he can feel the touch. with rex it still didn't work. >> if you sit there and try to keep beating on me -- >> i'm not beating on you. >> yeah, you are. i'm not going to say nothing. >> i was afraid if i pushed it any further, he would invoke. >> i made the decision to shut the interrogation down. and hopefully be able to resume it the next day. >> oh, we were pissed. but we trusted him. he was a way more seasoned

investigator than i was at the time. and it was like, okay. he's doing this for a reason. >> what follows is a long, sleepless night for both the interrogator and the suspect. followed by a stunning decision to let the sex offender tell his story directly to his pregnant girlfriend. >> rex, please.

after questioning registered sex offender rex krebs for more than three hours about two missing college students, investigator larry hobson notices the suspect's retreating into himself. >> so i agreed to take him back to his cell. he's in the back seat telling me he's a dead man walking. the next morning i went out to the jail at 6:00 a.m. i said rex, this isn't going to go away. we need to talk. and he says all right.

>> once again, the pair enter the interrogation room. very quickly hobson senses that his gamble has paid off. >> are you responsible for the disappearance of both girls? are we going to find either girl alive? that was a no? okay. >> krebs begins describing the events of november 12th, 1998. driving through town and spotting 20-year-old rachel newhouse just after she leaves a bar. popular with cal poly students. >> i had a -- what do you call it? premonition of where she was going. >> premonition? okay. and where did you think she was going? >> up on the bridge. >> krebs says he parks below the jennifer street bridge, a pedestrian walkway over the railroad tracks.

>> he put on a mask, one that's -- you've probably seen in the "scream" movie. he puts this mask on and he steps off to the side so she can't see him as she comes up the ramp. >> what happens next? >> i attacked her. >> and when you say you attacked her what do you mean attacked her? >> i turn around and hit her. >> where did you hit her? >> across the jaw, i believe. >> okay. okay. now she's unconscious laying on the bridge. what happens? >> grabbed her and drug her down to my truck. >> you say drug her? what do you mean by that? >> drug her down the stairs. >> how'd you drag her? >> by her hair. >> krebs recalls tying up rachel

and driving towards his home beyond the city limits. >> what happens in there? >> i raped her. >> he had a very sophisticated system of knot tying. rex said during the night rachel had struggled with the ropes being around the neck and her feet and she actually strangled herself and she died. >> took a shovel with me. >> all right. >> dug a grave and buried her. >> so far the interrogation is going exactly as hobson hoped. krebs talks about sinking back into normal life working as a lumberyard where he's regarded as a star employee. but just a few months later he says he's driving around and becomes fixated on aundria

crawford when he spots her returning to her off-campus home after classes at cuesta college. >> then one night he was at home drinking and he decided this was the night he was going to abduct aundria. so he drove into town. he parked his vehicle right in front of her duplex. trying all the doors, all the windows. they were all locked. >> then krebs says he notices a small bathroom window and lowers himself into the shower. >> okay. what happens? >> i hit her. >> you punched her? >> yeah. >> where? >> in the mouth. >> how many times you punch her? >> three or four times. >> what happens to her? >> goes unconscious. >> krebs says he hog ties his victim and wraps a pillow case around her head with duct tape. then he carries her out her

front door to his truck and drives her to his property. >> put her in the bedroom, put her on the bed, untied her, took her clothes off, raped and sodomized her. >> what's she saying? >> she was saying no. >> what'd you do? >> strangle her. >> okay. how'd you strangle her? >> piece of rope. >> what happened? >> she died. >> after covering the body with hog wire to ward off animals, krebs digs a grave. ironically he then buys flowers for his pregnant girlfriend roslin. >> does roslin know anything about this one? >> nobody knows anything about it. >> just you and i? >> just you and me. >> despite krebs' confession, police are anxious to find the

victims' bodies. krebs agrees to lead the police to the graves. but first he'd like a favor. >> he loves roslin. he says larry, is it possible i can sit down and talk with roslin and my boss and tell them what i did rather than have them see it on the news. and i felt that was a fair request based on what he had just confessed to. plus it was another chance for us to hear his confession to somebody other than me. >> how you doing? >> in a barely audible voice, krebs gently tells the mother of his future child that he's the one who raped and killed the two

college students. >> oh, my god. no. rex, please. >> it was emotional. it really was. >> why did you do this? >> she had a serial killer for a boyfriend and she didn't know it. >> no. leave me alone. god. >> calm down. >> she was at that time i think about seven months pregnant. and immediately started hyperventilating. to the point we finally had to call the paramedic to come and treat her. >> what's going on? >> she just got some bad news. >> with the interrogation over, krebs brings investigators to the crime scene keeping his promise to larry hobson. >> he liked larry. it's a weird relationship, but it's a relationship. >> despite that relationship, hobson testifies at krebs' 2001 trial persuading the jury to

send him to death row for raping and killing the students. >> from san quentin, krebs writes christmas cards to hobson. grateful for the way he questioned him with decency and kindness. >> it just showed he respected me for the job i had to do. it's just business. coming up, what's it like to be 12 years old and sitting in the interrogation chair? >> i didn't do do it. i didn't do kill my sister. i wouldn't kill her.

camden, arkansas. august 2006. >> okay. you know i didn't do it. so who did it? >> thomas cogdell begins talking to himself. alone in an interrogation room. after police tell him he's responsible for the murder of his 11-year-old sister. kaylee. >> i didn't do do it. i'm going to tell them the truth.

kaylee's dead. >> unlike rex krebs, thomas is a complete stranger to the criminal justice system. >> here he's 12. his sister's dead. he's emotionally an infant at this point. if emotional wounds were visible, this child would have bled to death before the first interview was over. >> in the summer of 2006, thomas is about to enter the eighth grade while living here with kaylee and their mother melody jones. melody is on disability. she tells authorities she suffers from mental illness and has attempted suicide at least once. >> she could go from one emotion to the other in a snap. if we -- me and my sister were playing and got too loud or anything, my mom would flip out and start yelling and screaming and grab something to hit one of us.

so i stayed away from her. because i didn't know how she would act. >> on august 7th, shortly after their find kaylee's body in her bedroom, both thomas and his mother are asked to come to camden headquarters. thomas enters the box, or interview room. what follows is a remarkable window into the interrogation process. from the suspect's point of view. >> did you argue with your sister very often? >> every now and then, like, once a day. >> i just answered the questions. i didn't think there would be anything wrong in telling them. so i just said this is what happened in our house. this is how our house functions. >> just after the 30 minute mark, detectives get more specific. questions thomas about the circumstances surrounding

kaylee's death. thomas recalls being woken up by his mother some time before noon and told to accompany her to kaylee's room to deliver a letter from a friend. >> my mom woke me up and said let's go surprise kaylee. okay? she was like that. >> like what? >> she was tied up with bags over her head. and my mom ripped off the bags. and i went around to her other side, and she was all cold and blue. >> her hands and feet were tied. >> how were they tied? >> i don't know. in a knot. i couldn't get it undone. neither could my mom. >> the apparent murder weapons are the family's personal items. both thomas and his mothers say kaylee's hands are tied with the dog's leash while her feet are bound with cloth measuring tape. the two shopping bags on

kaylee's face come from walmart. >> i didn't know she was dead yet. i feared that there was something wrong, but i wasn't aware fully. >> thomas? >> yeah. >> thomas, i'm with the state police. and i've been kind of listening to some of the story you've been telling. and i'm going to tell it to you just like it is. you're an intelligent boy, aren't you? >> yeah. >> well, we're pretty intelligent too. >> okay. >> and the bottom line is, nobody broke in that house last night. so your sister died and there was only two people in the house that could have killed her. >> okay. >> you or your mother. >> but police apparently don't believe melody jones murdered kaylee. >> now, all i want to know -- i really want to know why. >> why what?

>> why you would kill your sister. >> i wouldn't. >> but you had to of. if your mother didn't. >> i didn't kill her. i know i didn't. >> i'm finally starting to realize that she was dead. i'm scared. i'm getting a bit frustrated at the police for asking me all these questions. pushing me over the edge. i start to break down. >> you killed your sister. >> i didn't kill her. i didn't. >> it'll feel a whole lot better if you just tell me. >> i didn't. god. i didn't kill her. i did not. >> then who killed her? it had to have been you, son. >> i didn't do it. i didn't kill my sister. i love her. i wouldn't kill her. is there any way i can prove that to you? >> it's going to be difficult. >> i'm going in circles. there's nothing else i can think

about but what -- there had to be somebody else that had to get in there. but the cops kept saying that wasn't the case. >> let me ask you this. i'm not saying that you killed her. >> okay. it's a possibility that it could have been an accident and i don't remember it, okay? but i don't remember killing her. >> the interrogation is taking a critical turn. >> i'm starting to be convinced that maybe i just don't remember. maybe i'm wrong. i'm getting to the point where i'm starting to maybe accept what they're telling me. >> is there a possibility? >> you two playing around and you tied her up? >> it's a possibility cause i don't remember if i did or not. i might not just remember. like amnesia. >> sure. >> thomas is beginning to change his story. and before the day is over, he'll tell his mother something he doesn't want his interrogators to know.

in a camden, arkansas, police station, 12-year-old thomas cogdell is in big trouble. for more than an hour, police have been asking questions about his younger sister kaylee. thomas and his mother say they found her that morning tied up with the dog's leash and measuring tape. and suffocated with two walmart shopping bags over her head. what thomas doesn't realize is that on the other side of the interrogation room walls, his paternal grandfather steve harris has come to assist him.

>> i said i'd like to see my grandson. they said, well, we're interrogating him. i said does he have a lawyer or a child advocate? they said no. and the strangest thing they said was since 9/11 that's all changed. >> officers point out that thomas' mother melody jones is also in the building and has given them permission to interview the boy. >> i said she's bipolar. she has just lost her daughter. she's in a destroyed state. she's not competent enough to help him or help herself. and they said as long as she says we can talk to thomas, that's all we need. >> i just wanted for the record that you did allow us to talk to thomas, is that correct? >> yes. >> melody jones declined to be

interviewed by msnbc. >> a parent should not be able to give up your rights especially when she's the only other person that could have done it. >> even worse for thomas, he's giving investigators information that's starting to work against him. like details of a game he played with kaylee using handcuffs made of yarn. >> could you have been in her room since momma was in bed and y'all decided to play and tie each other up? >> no. i don't tie her up with leashes and stuff. >> yeah, but you could have been in there and say come on, let's play prison break or whatever. >> i don't remember. >> and then tie her up. >> i don't remember. >> and i mean, that's fine. because you're playing a game. >> could i have tied her up and did this by accident? i feel like they were trying to

find some friction between us. >> now, you said you have -- you have some anger problems. >> yes. >> who is your anger directed to most of the time? >> my sister. >> and why is that? >> because she argues with me. she bosses me around. she doesn't respect me because i'm older. she's supposed to respect me. >> my sister's gone. why aren't we finding the person who did this? why are you asking me all these questions? >> do you know what time it is? because i'm getting very hungry. >> 90 minutes into the interrogation thomas is brought into another room to eat. law enforcement officials stay with him the entire time. >> they took that child off camera for three hours and 30, 40 minutes. i guess they didn't want us to know what was being said because they certainly had the ability to record it.

>> while thomas eats, melody jones replaces her son in the interrogation room. >> were you in any way involved in the death of your daughter? >> no, sir. i wouldn't hurt her like that. i don't even like spanking them. i wouldn't do that. and i don't think thomas would either. >> when you watch that tape, whenever you get past thomas wouldn't hurt her sister, then generally speaking you get some tears followed by something derogatory or negative about thomas. that he blows up, he's on medication, he doesn't have friends, he doesn't like church. things of that nature. >> when you catch him doing something, is he good about going about fessing up or is he the type that denies it until the end? >> he denies it. >> they automatically assumed i

was this violent, socially withdrawn, pretty much demonic little kid where i black out and do crazy violent things. >> how am i going to deal with this? >> i'm going to tell you. the good lord would be a good place to start. i don't feel like i should push him into church. if you don't, the devil will take him. >> he doesn't go to church. he sits there like -- >> it's better than sitting in hell. >> i know. >> this is a very churchy city, i guess. everyone here believes in god, goes to church every sunday. and for a 12-year-old kid to say i don't like going to church makes you feel uncomfortable. it's weird. >> if he would do this once, he might do it again. and we'd have to be in fear for anybody he's around.

any other child or young person. or even you. >> at a certain point, detectives excuse themselves and leave melody alone. when they do, the camera picks up a faint sound from another room. >> thomas, i'm not going to ask you again. >> you hear the words from a male voice "thomas, i'm not going to did you --" and it fades off and i think the next word is "again." it's about at that point that thomas says he decided that it was time to go ahead and tell them what they wanted to hear. >> after i get through eating, this other man comes in. and we start talking. and then he starts to get angry. he says if you do not confess we will charge you with the death penalty as an adult. they start telling me these bits

of information i could work into a story. maybe i got angry because she wouldn't listen to me. or maybe we were playing around and it was an accident. or maybe i just blacked out and don't remember any of it. i didn't want to die. so i told them i did it. >> yet thomas says he thinks he's going home that night. and he tells his mother he knows the one fact he's sure will set him free.

august 7th, 2006. police rush to this small house in camden, arkansas, after receiving a report of an 11-year-old girl bound and smothered in her bedroom with two walmart shopping bags.

hours later her 12-year-old brother, thomas cogdell, sits in an interrogation room ready to confess. if thomas seems calm, he says there's a reason. he's convinced investigators will soon clear him in the death of his sister kaylee. >> i'm thinking if i just get through this and tell them what they want to hear that i can go home, get done with this. >> we're going to go over the rights with you make sure you understand what your rights are. >> police read thomas his rights. >> with full knowledge i hereby voluntarily and knowingly agree to answer your questions. do you understand the waiver? >> huh-uh. what's a waiver? >> it simply says that what you're saying you're doing on your own free will. >> okay.

>> the definition they gave was incorrect. he's 12 years old. he does not comprehend what it means to give up a right to an attorney. what happened last night at your house between you and your sister that led up to where we are head? >> she was asleep with the tv still on. so i put the trash bags over her head and i held them there for a few minutes. >> what are you calling a trash bag? >> the walmart bag. the walmart bag over her head and she jerks up a little bit. and i tied her wrists and feet after pulling her arms out from under her. then i went back and read. >> he comes back and he's a robot. he is not the same person he was three and a half hours ago.

>> thomas now waits for police to bring his mother into the interrogation room. he tells his investigators he'll confess to her, too, under one condition. he wants to do it privately. the investigators leave the room, but the camera continues to roll. >> mom -- >> i whispered in her ear, don't worry about what i'm about to tell you. it's not true. they'll find out tomorrow my prints are not on the bags or anything. >> the officer testified he told thomas that the fingerprints from the person who with killed kaylee would be on the bag at a certain angle. well, thomas was smart enough to know that he had never touched those bags. he had not held those bags to kaylee's face. >> okay, you understand? i did it.

i'm the one who did that to kaylee. >> why? >> it was an accident. i'm sorry. okay? >> were you mad at her? >> yeah. because she kept on disrespecting me. let's go. >> i don't think we can. you need to sit down. okay? >> okay. >> remember, don't tell nobody. >> okay. >> i think thomas was afraid that if she told them that he was going to be taken out in another room and interrogated some more. >> what did he whisper to you? >> he said to go along with what he said because he doesn't -- he said he doesn't -- he said he didn't do it. and that y'all wouldn't find his

fingerprints. >> his statement was very detailed in my opinion. but he's wanting to hold back on you because he doesn't want you mad at him, i think. that's what it amounts to. >> he should trust me. >> thomas doesn't return home. >> on march 18th, 2008, he goes on trial for the murder of his younger sister. >> there was absolutely no evidence to connect thomas to this crime except his confession. my theory at the trial was that someone, not thomas, had held kaylee's head into the pillow. when i asked the medical examiner if the cause of death

was consistent with a large person straddling kaylee and holding her head in the pillow, he said yes, that was consistent with her suffocation. not saying it was the only way, but he said that was certainly consistent. >> i approach her bed, get down on her bed and put the bags over her head. >> nonetheless, thomas' words in the interrogation room are too powerful for the judge overseeing the case. and thomas is convicted of second degree murder. >> i was shocked. i figured how could it come to that verdict when it's so obvious that i didn't do it. >> during the detention he is a model inmate.

>> it simply says that what you're saying, you're doing on your own free will. >> the decision will come down to an error made in the interrogation room. in 2010 the arkansas supreme court unanimously throws out the confession. based on police giving thomas the wrong definition of the word waiver. his battle with the legal system ends when prosecutors take no further action. the case is dismissed. >> it's very hard for me to wrap my head around the belief of the police that thomas actually committed this murder. >> i didn't kill her. >> and that the only reason he's free is because they made a mistake in telling him what a waiver is.

>> authorities say thomas' juvenile status at the time of the murder prevents them from discussing the case. in a statement to msnbc, prosecutor robin carol did say a prosecutor is the only one in a criminal action who is responsible for the presentation of the truth. through our efforts in this case, we believe we have achieved that goal. >> someone killed my sister, and they just dropped the case. justice has not been done. >> back in camden thomas moves in with his grandparents. he says he rarely communicates with his mother. and hopes to study astrophysics. this is the first time he's ever spoken about his interrogation. >> what the cops did was not right. i believe they were unprofessional. they thought they knew something. they failed to do their job in investigating it fully. and they just nailed the easiest

target. due to mature subject w matter, viewer discretion is advised. >> msnbc takes you behind the walls of america's most notorious prisons into a world of chaos and danger. now the scenes you've never seen. "lockup: raw." >> at kentucky state penitentiary, some inmates can apprentice in an auto body shop. at rikers island jail, a bakery churns out nearly 90,000 loaves of bread per week while teaching inmates how to bake. m