this sunday. you say you want a revolution? well you've got one in the republican party. >> i think i shocked some of you, huh? >> the gop red hots have proven they can decapitate their leadership. now, can they prove they can lead? plus, the democrats. biden is still deciding, clinton is still waffling, and sanders is still speaking out. >> people will have to contrast my consistency and my willingness to stand up to wall street and big corporations with the secretary. >> my interview with the democratic insurgent. and after supporting the president's asian trade deal dozens of times, hillary clinton now opposes it -- sort of. it may have been smart short-term politics, but is it

blatant opportunism? joining me are radio talk show host hue hewitt, eugene robinson of "the washington post," kathleen parker of "the washington post," and nathan gonzalez of the rothenberg and gonzalez political report. welcome to sunday. it's "meet the press." >> from nbc news in washington, this is "meet the press" with chuck todd. good sunday morning. if you're one of those who does want a revolution, guess what? i think the two parties have two of them for you. the democratic left and the republican right are pulling their parties away from the center. on the democratic side, senator bernie sanders strong polling is frustrating the hillary clinton campaign and forcing her to switch positions and move to the left. we'll have my interview with bernie sanders in a few minutes. on the republican side, the revolt by conservative house members has thrown the party, at least in congress, into disarray. having already defeated majority leader eric cantor and forced out speaker boehner, they claimed their third victim this week when kevin mccarthy was

forced out of the race for speaker. >> i think i shocked some of you, huh? >> a republican fight between conservatives anded stab the establishment that's been brewing took another casualty. >> clearly the establishment lost today. >> quite the fall from grace for this establishment. five years ago these three men led the republicans back into power and now one by one they've been pushed out. it started in june of last year. >> obviously we came up short. >> my, oh, my, what a wonderful day. >> this will be a best step foot -- step foot -- i messed up. >> two of the fallen were self-described young guns. the third, congressman paul ryan, is being aggressively drafted to do the job of speaker, even by his competition. >> if paul ryan got into the race, of course i'd support him. >> right now i'm going to catch my flight so i can make it home for dinner. >> as ryan rises, ire is rising among skeptical conservatives

with the juan calling ryan, quote, a dangerous pick. another, radio host laura ingraham tweeted friday are they talking about the same paul ryan who once lost a vp debate to joe biden? >> some of my conservative colleagues remember his impassioned pleas for the t.a.r.p., the wall street bailout. i would want to talk about paul ryan about why he kicked conservatives off the budget committee. >> for years they picked the quai who was, quote, next in line to be the standard bearer. now the conservative anger is reshaping the party. with their largest majority in the house since the 1920s, republicans are still struggling to govern themselves. 72% of republican voters say they're dissatisfied with their own leaders in congress. >> liberal light. they get elected saying one thing and then they get there and don't follow through on promises. >> too many people that go down there drink the water. they become addicted to whatever. >> when you get to that point of

the establishment, republican or democrat, there's very little difference. >> and on the 2016 campaign trail, the grassroots has so far rejected republicans with deep political resumes preferring self-declared outsiders. after mccarthy's fall, those outsiders rushed to declare victory. >> the city of washington is in utter panic. >> they're giving me a lot of credit for that because i said you really need somebody very, very tough and very smart. >> hoping to become the leader of a republican party still searching for one. well, to discuss what ted cruz calls utter panic inside the republican party, i'm joined by two strong voices representing two different wings of the party inside the house. dave brat of virginia is the man who arguably fired the first shot of the conservative revolution or the most recent one within congress with his primary defeat of then-house majority leader eric cantor in june of 2014. also with us is congressman

charlie dent of pennsylvania. he actually represents one of the few swing districts left in congress. president obama carried his district in 2008 and mitt romney narrowly carried it in 2012. gentlemen, welcome to both of you. >> thanks, chuck. >> congressman, let me start with you, you're a member of the freedom caucus. what is it that you want and what is it that speaker boehner, kevin mccarthy, and eric cantor haven't delivered. >> well, they all ran on a pledge to america and they, just like your 72% of the folks out there in the real world, say we make these promises when we run but then when we get up here we're called unrealistic by the washington establishment and the bubble up here. what we want is what the american people want. we have $19 trillion in debt, $100 trillion in unfunded liabilities. all federal revenues will be spent in 11 years on just entitlement programs and interest on the debt. there will be not one one dollar for the military, education, transportation, and all of running government. so the american people want us

to make progress on that. plus, president obama when i came in last year in november, we had the unconstitutional amnesty, our lap said we're going to fight tooth and nail on that thing. it's unkotional. then overreach on all sort -- dodd/frank, epa regulation, a bad iran deal. the people say make the case for us. twhaes we want to do. >> congressman dent, i have heard and i think you're one of those who have said that, your response to him particularly on spending issues would be you've done what you can with the democratic president, is that right? >> that's correct. but, you know, in order to address all the policy issues david just discussed we have to get back to functionality. we have to prove to the american people we can govern. and that means we have to make sure the government is funded. we must make sure we don't default on our obligations. we have to take care of transportation issues, tax exte extenders, et cetera. to the extent we're distinctional we can't address the major policy issues. the issue is this, we need to expand the governance wing of

the republican party, those who have the capacity to say yes. a lot of people hope no and then vote yes. we saw that on the continuing resolution and we'll see it on a number of other issues. >> you were nodding, nodding, nodding and then you went no, no, no. define the nods and the nos. >> the governing up in this place seems to always mean increase spending. that's what it means in d.c. that's not what governing means to the american people. we have this budget chaos every year right before christmas. we have a cr coming up, we're going to fund it, omni coming up -- >> using a lot of washington speak here. short term budget deal or a long-term compromise. >> and so the point is guess what? it's going to be utter chaos. the left is going to throw in all their toys they want into the sink. the right will throw it in. this was orchestrated on purpose in my view. the budget committee finished its work in april, may. we voted -- the next step in the budget process it goes to appropriations, 12 bills. we passed 5, the senate only 1.

the senate is a major problem but we shouldn't be waving a white flag ahead of time. charlie is saying we should give in and cave -- >> that's not what i'm saying at all. >> the compromise come later. >> let me push back on two things. with you, congressman brat, at the end of the day the conservative movement is not a majority. you don't necessarily even have a governing majority inside the house. so if you don't have that how do you -- when do you say i'm getting 50% of what i want and it's the best i can do. now when i go to the campaign trail so i can elect a republican president. >> totally disagree with the premise. on thec r we had 153 republicans vote against leadership's budget. that's the 153. the only people that talks about the 40 guys is the press. the only chaos up here is on k street and the democrats are freaking out because if we actually have to balance a budget, even a liberal economist knew you had to run sur plass in

the good years. we've had seven years in a row of $500 billion deficits. it's terrible. >> congressman dent, one of i think congressman brat and other people's complaints and these are over half of the republican conference has been elected in the last six years, and their complaint is this, you know what? we get here and we don't have an opportunity to actually vote on the change, vote on some of the issues we would like. leadership tells us what we can or can't do. we don't get that opportunity to lose essentially. maybe we will lose. maybe leadership is right, but you don't give us the opportunity to do it. what do you say to him on that? >> i think the leadership has been accommodating to those members who don't vote for the bills at the end of the process. this happens routinely, and i think a number of us have had enough of it. david just mentioned 150 republicans voted against the continuing resolution. i can tell you that over half the republican caucus strongly supported the continuing resolution. only 91 voted for it. >> why? >> why? because we're back to hope yes,

vote no. they'd rather let the 91 of us take the flack and then go home and they can go home and tell folks they stood strong. this is a bill that just level funded the government for 2 1/2 months. that's all it did. >> i want to do, a little back to the future meeting the rest of the press. i want to bring in my panel. eugene rodriguez, hugh hewitt, nathan gonzalez who you both had an interview with before you won your office and kathleen parker of "the washington post." hugh, fire away. >> pox on both your wings. i am very desperately hoping that paul ryan is praying about it and sep this is and here is my question. yesterday a russian jet was set down in turkey. yesterday almost 100 people were killed in turkey. the world is on fire. how dare you with the american people waiting for leadership paralyze the house? charlie you have to stop going on cnn and blasting david, and david, there are like 15 of you. the freedom caucus is like 15 people. paul ryan is liked by 225 republicans. get with the program, guys.

>> how do you know we're not on the program? you're doing -- >> we support paul ryan. if he wins a conference vote will you support his agenda. >> i have five policy principles -- >> it's not a hard question. will you support -- >> if you'd let me answer it would be easier. i have five policy on my web page and five process. if he goes with that -- >> you're holding the caucus hostage. >> the answer is yes i will support paul ryan but paul ryan is a very smart man. the underlying governing and political dynamic of the house has not changed. paul ryan, if he becomes speaker, i hope he does, he will have to make accommodations and collaborate with the democrats to pass a debt ceiling, to pass a budget agreement. if he does those things, he will have his legs taken out by some of his own members. we all know that. now, in he chooses to go with the status quo, the house will be mired in paralysis and the institution will be weaker. speaker would be weaker. he's going to have the same problems john boehner had and

kevin mccarthy was about to experience. >> gene robinson, fire. >> congressman brat, your litany of complaints about obama years, obamacare, immigration, all the things you complained about illustrate that you cannot set the national agenda from the house of representatives. you simple cannot. you have to win the white house. are you not with the freedom caucus essentially making it less likely that there will be a republican president elected next year and thus less likely you'll be able to set the national agenda. >> absolutely not. we have a pox on both of us coming from d.c. talking heads and then -- >> in defense of hugh, he lives in california. >> what everybody up here is missing are the objective economic numbers. we have a guaranteed financial crisis in law coming up in 11 years and we're missing the american people. go poll the american people. i follow the american people. charlie here wants us to follow like a caucus or whatever. he wants to kick us out of our conference for voting our

conscience -- >> i don't want to do that. >> you're on record last week saying it. >> popular support for congress is -- >> i got -- >> that's an outrageous thing to say. >> i did say it, it's absolutely true. >> it's not true. >> you say we should be punished, in quotes. >> i said we should marginalize people who don't want to govern. i believe members of congress have a responsibility to govern. and that means hugh raised the issue of the world being on fire. >> right. >> shutting down the government in the middle of this would be a terrible thing. our men and women in uniform need us to provide some certainty and stability. >> right. >> he's right the world is on fire. for those who don't want to govern, we have to establish bipartisan coalitions to pass any -- >> there you go again. so you want nancy pelosi to help determine our speaker for the republican conference. >> no -- >> our own leadership -- if i can finish a sentence. i never said that. >> he just asked the question. >> you're missing it, charlie. i will support if he's for the process and the policy that the american people want.

you want nancy pelosi to be in on on speaker and you want to kick the conservatives out of our own conference. >> you empower nancy pelosi when you sided with her on the dhs appropriation bill. >> charlie, you're doing -- >> you sided with her on trade -- >> can i get a word in here? >> let him finish this sentence. >> that's a sentence. good. charlie, this week is doing a discharge petition with 40 republicans to go with nancy pelosi to get the export/import bank back into play this week going around the whole -- >> i'll tell why you. >> going against the whole committee structure of the republican conference that we're trying to -- >> i'm going to jump in here. >> we need good process. >> final question when do you need to hear from paul ryan about when he's here or not. >> i don't think it has to happen in the next 24 or 48 hours. this is a tough decision. may i address the discharge petition? >> very quickly. very fast. >> some of us, the governing wing want to use patriot ses to advance good legislation.

others want to -- >> it's bad legislation. >> we're going to save a lot of jobs in pennsylvania. we send locomotives to developing -- >> congressman, are you okay with kevin mccarthy staying as majority leader? >> absolutely. we had good talks with him. he talked with us. the whole conference was making great progress toward these reforms we're talking about. kevin was yes, yes, yes on that. so the talking points that we're in this war, it's overblown. get to the facts. >> i am over time already. i promise -- >> i didn't get a turn. >> well, you're going get a turn later in the show. these guys have to get going. thank you both. congressman brat, congressman dent, i really think viewers got an understanding of the differences inside the conference. thank you both. and thank you for ending on a smile. when we come back, the battle on a democratic size. my interview with senator bernie sanders of vermont. the moon. it's the story of america- land of the doers.

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don't let your neighbor enjoy all the savings. take the free home energy checkup. honey, we need a new refrigerator. visit pge.com/checkup and get started today. welcome back to "meet the press." vice president joe biden is spending the weekend with his family at home in delaware. with time running short on making a decision on whether or not to get into the race for president, our nerdscreen issue this morning is, what about a biden do to the hillary clinton/bernie sanders match-up? let's start in iowa. as you see here, this is our latest nbc news/"wall street journal"/maris poll, we have hillary clinton with a two-way race up 11 points. well, what happens when it's a three-way race? we did that.

and you see joe biden starts in third place sitting at 22%. look what happens to hillary clinton's double digit lead. it goes to single digits, 33/28, so clearically joe biden pulls a lot more from clinton than he does sanders. guess what. same story in new hampshire. of course, in our new hampshire poll we had sanders ahead even in the two-way race, 48%, 39%. almost double digit lead. watch what happens when you toss in biden. he takes more from hillary clinton. biden is in third, 18%, but look at this, hillary clinton loses double digit support and bernie sanders loses five or six points but guess what. his overall lead gets to double digits. so what does it all mean? we know a couple things. number one, joe biden clearly hurts hillary clinton both in votes, not just the mere talk of its candidacy. but number two, if biden gets in, could we now say that the actual front-runner for the democratic nomination is then bernie sanders? it's clear that sanders' supporters are willing to stick

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and we are back. we all know that las vegas is home of some big-time boxing. actually i think "meet the press" is now going to be known for that after what we just saw earlier in the show. but on tuesday vegas is going to be hosting a different kind of match-up. the first democratic presidential debate. it's a moment for hillary clinton, a big one for her, who needs to prove she is still a heavyweight contender in this race. she'll have to face down independent senator bernie sanders who is punching above his weight class particularly in iowa and new hampshire. on friday i sat down with the man planning to start what he's been describing as a political revolution. and i began by asking what is different about his revolution? where can he succeed where president obama and his hope and change revolution could not? >> it's a very fair question, and let me tell you i have enormous respect for barack obama. he's a friend of mine. i campaigned for him. he helped me get elected and i worked with him on many, many issues, and also let's be clear that this country today unless

you are very, very partisan and refuse to acknowledge reality, our economy today is a heck of a lot better than it was when george w. bush left office and we were losing 800,000 jobs a month. here is the difference in political outlook between the president and myself. what i understand is that the power of corporate america, wall street, the corporate media, is so great that real change to transform our country does not take place unless millions of people begin to stand up and say very loudly and clearly that the united states government has got to represent all of us and not just the top 1%. no president, not bernie sanders, barack obama, hillary clinton, anybody else is going to be able to accomplish that unless millions of people stand up and say you know what? you guys are are the going to get it all. 58% of all new income is not going to go to 1%. we're not going to have grotesque levels of income inequality.

>> i get that. but you said you can't do it as president -- >> you can't do it alone. a president can lead that effort. >> i'm going to jump quickly to a facebook question we got for you and it's from joanna and she says, bernie, i like you and your ideas, but how will you get congress to support your agenda? they blocked president obama on a lot. your agenda is even further left than president obama. >> exactly. >> what do you say to that? >> very fair question. what i say is that it will not be that my personality is better than barack obama's in negotiating with whoever the speaker of the house may be, if they ever come up with a speaker or mitch mcconnell and by the way, i hope via political revolution we will be substantially increasing voter turnout. democrats do well, chuck, when a lot of people vote and republicans lose. >> but you know the likelihood is the house probably -- if you're elected president, you're right, you'll probably bring a democratic senate -- >> maybe, maybe not. you may well be right. what do we do? this is what you do. you say to the speaker of the

house, hey, you don't want to negotiate with me? i think we should make public colleges and universities twin tuition-free and i think we should pay for a tax on wall street speculation. do i think the republican speaker of the house will agree? no, i don't think so. but he will have to look out the window and see a million young people demonstrating and marching in washington saying, you know what? we want to see affordability in college. >> barack obama said this. he said, i remember the whole idea of -- they called it organizing for america. that they were going to create a legislative that when they were blocked, what you're describing, it didn't happen. >> you're right it didn't happen. and i think what ended up happening is the president because he happens to be a very decent guy actually thought that he could sit down with the republican leadership and work out some fair compromises. number one, they never had any intention to compromise but number two, more importantly, you have to be prepared to mobilize people to take on these

big money interests. but you're right, i think we can do it and i think that's what the bully pulpit is about and that's what organizing efforts is about and that's what this campaign is about and we're beginning to do this. every day i read in the paper things that are happening some place in the country where there are spontaneous outbursts of support for us and that is what we have to mobilize. the bottom line is, unless turnout becomes much higher, we lose. unless people are organized and politically conscious in a way that does not exist today, we are not going to transform america the way we have to. >> you know, you've always been hesitant to contrast yourself with secretary clinton, but you have -- you make certain subtle differences by saying on some of these issues where she now agrees with you, you welcome her over and you emphasize you've had these positions for a long time. why should that matter? why should that matter to a voter that you've held this position for a much longer say on ttp than secretary clinton? >> i'll tell you why it should

matter. let me be clear, i happen to respect and like hillary clinton so i don't get into personal attacks. you know that, but are there differences of opinion that should be discussed? of course there are. that's what an election is about. to answer your question, what it's about is at a time when so few have so much and when the big money interests have so much political power, the real most important question is who is prepared to mobilize the american people to stand up to these very powerful and wealthy special interests? whose track record for the last 25 years has been to say to wall street, you know what? we're going to have to break up the large financial institutions -- >> it's a trust issue. you're basically saying i have been there, so you can trust i'll never leave that fight. with somebody else who gets there late, you think it's perhaps a trust issue? >> keystone pipeline. i believe clay mat change is the great global crisis that we face, environmental crisis.

from day one i opposed the keystone pipeline because i believe that if you're serious about climate change, you don't encourage the excavation and transportation of very dirty oil. that was my view from day one. tpp, i believe that our trade policy is going way back again chsh i voted against nafta. i think they've been a disaster for the american worker. corporations shut down and move abro abroad. people have to contrast my consistency and my willingness to stand up to wall street and corporations -- big corporations with the secretary. >> let's go into some issues. let's start with tpp. you brought up you have been against every single trade agreement. aid senior democrat say to me yesterday, if you can't be for this trade agreement, then there's no trade agreement that you can ever support. what do you say to this democrat? >> absolutely wrong. that's the problem that we have. this is a senior democrat told you this? >> yes, sir. >> that's why the republicans control the house and the senate, because what working people understand that after

nafta, cafta, we have lost millions of decent paying jobs since 2001. 60,000 factory this is america have been shut down. we're in a race to the bottom where our wages are going down. is all of that attributable to trade? no. soo s a lot of it? yes. this trade agreement was written boo i corporate america and the pharmaceutical industry and wall street. that's what the trade agreement is about. i do not want american workers to compete against people in vietnam who make 56 cents an hour for a minimum wage. >> so basically there's never been a single trade agreement this country has negotiated you've been comfortable with. >> that's correct. >> let me move to foreign policy. there's some news this week, the pentagon has announced they're no longer doing this training program for these moderate rebels. good idea? >> well, it failed. i think the president acknowledged that. syria is a quagmire inside of a quagmire. you have a horrific dictator who we all want to see removed from

office. you have the barbaric isis people who do their atrocities every other day. you know how russia is involved in the situation as well. i think what the president has tried to do is thread a very, very difficult needle, and that is keep american troops from engaging in combat and getting killed there and i think that is the right thing to do. so i think we continue to try to do everything that we can focusing primarily, as bad as assad is, focusing on trying to defeat isis, and let me say this -- >> you didn't support his isis program. you didn't vote to authorize it. why is that? >> well, because i am worried about american troops getting sucked into a never-ending war in the middle east and particularly in iraq and syria. but let me also say this, and this is the other reason why i have been very hesitant, i don't think the united states can or should be doing it alone.

not our troops who -- i have gone to too many funerals in the state of vermont, nor or taxpayers. the wars in iraq cost us $4 billion to $6 billion. i believe saudi arabia, kuwait, qatar, they have to get their hands dirty as well. they don't like isis, let them start putting troops on the ground. saudi arabia has the third largest defense budget in the entire world, and i found it very ironic that they were asking american troops to get engaged on the ground when they have -- >> gulf war one we got them to pay. >> yes. >> for -- do you think we should be doing that? >> i think it's more than pay. >> you want to see them put blood and treasure. >> yeah, that's exactly right. >> not just treasure. >> that's exactly what i think. >> what does counterterrorism look like in a sander administration, drones, special forces, what does it look like? >> all of that and more. >> you're okay with the drone -- >> drone is a weapon. when it works badly, it is

terrible and it is counterproductive. when you blow up a facility or a building which kills women and children, you know what? not only -- it's terrible. >> but you're comfortable with the idea of using drones if you think you have isolated and important terrorist. >> yes. >> that continues. >> yes. and look, we all know, you know, there are people as of this moment plotting against the united states. we have got to be vigorous in protecting our country, no question about it. >> let's talk about the gun issue. you have called for moderation in this saying you think you can bring both sides together. >> i wouldn't use the word moderation. not quite the right word. this is what i do believe. i come from a state that has virtually no gun control, and yet -- at political peril, i voted for an instant background check which i want to see strengthened and expanded. i voted to ban certain types of assault weapons which are designed only to kill people. i voted to end the so-called gun show loophole. what i did say is that we can keep shouting at each other,

which is what's been going on here for 20 years and going nowhere and kids on campuses and children in schools are being slaughtered. what i think there needs to be is a dialogue and here is what i do believe, chuck. i believe what i would call common sense gun reform plus a revolution in mental health making sure that if people are having a nervous breakdown or are suicidal or homicidal, they get the care they need when they need it. i think the vast majority of the american people can support an agenda composed of those features. >> all right. you joked about the idea when people call you a socialist, you say, yes, i'm going to make everybody wear the same color pajamas. >> especially you and i have a pair of pajamas just for you. >> i hear you. the other day i noticed you said don't use the word socialist. i'm going to say i'm a progressive. are you pushing back on -- or are you embracing -- >> look, when one of your republican colleagues get on the show, do you say are you a

capitalist? >> are you a capital snist in? >> no i'm a democratic socialist. i've been elected as an independent throughout my political career. i'm running in the democratic nomination process and will support -- i hope to win, i expect -- >> but you will support the democratic nominee. >> i will. >> do you have a short list for a running mate -- >> you need another job? is that what you're hitting me up for? >> in all seriousness. >> look, we started this campaign, i was at 3% in the polls. now we're ahead in some states and we're making progress. before i talk -- start worry being who my vice president will be, let me win this thing. >> senator sanders, good luck on the trail. stay safe out there. >> thank you very much. >> you can see my complete interview with bernie sanders unedited on our website, including him hinting he might be willing to reconsider his vote to protect gun manufacturers from liability. you can find that unedited

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bernie sanders than she expected when this campaign started, but it would be fair to say she's not helping herself with her growing list of shall we say policy adjustments when it comes to the progressive movement. same-sex marriage, tough prison sentencing, the keystone pie line and her decision to come out against the asian trade deal. >> what i know of it, i am not in favor of what i have learned about it. i don't have the text. we don't yet have all the details. i don't believe it's going to meet the high bar i have set. >> the problem to borrow a recent political cliche, she was for it before she was against it, and really for it. as cnn calculated a few months ago, clinton pushed and praised the ttp trade deal on at least 45 separate occasions. in fact, in her book "hard choices" just published last year she said this, the tpp became the signature economic pillar of our strategy in asia. we're going it get to that in a

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welcome back. let's have a look at this. two weeks ago, even before she did an aboutface on the trade deal, i asked hillary clinton if she was changing some of her positions for political expediency. >> i just don't think that

reflects either my assessment of issues and i don't think it reflects how people who are thoughtful actually conduct their lives. if we don't learn, if we don't make decisions based on the best information we have available, well, you know, that's regrettable. i'm not going to sit here and tell people that i make up my mind. that's the republicans. they make up their mind. >> let's bring in the panel. radio talk show host hugh hewitt, eugene robinson of the "washington post," kathleen parker of the "washington post" and nigh than gonzalez editor of the rothenberg and gonzalez report. when she gave that answer, i asked her about tpp and she wasn't ready to answer but it felt like she was laying the groundwork. >> well, her question are you doing thing for political expedience, she's not going to say "yes, i'm trying to win people over from bernie sanders." of course she is. but i think you can give her the benefit of the doubt but it's probable causable she has changed her mind base on elect mat concerns because what

happened before when she can secretary of state and representing the obama administration may have shifted to some extent. as she said she doesn't know because she hasn't seen the details yet. so giving her the benefit of the doubt -- >> are you? >> for now, for this moment. i'm not really opposed to people changing their minds. i'm much more concerned with people who never change their minds no matter what new information is available. >> nathan gonzalez, i had -- peter hart described this to me as a decision about the next three months, not a decision about the next 13 months. fair? >> well, peter hart is one of the best in the business. i think the first step for hillary clinton is winning the nomination, and democrats are extremely confident in a general election, they believe the demographics are working in their favor, the electorate is working in their favor so if you could say this is for three months to gain the nomination, i think secretary clinton and her team would take that because in a general election they feel very, very good. >> hugh hewitt, isn't that familiar. remember that was the stewart stevens' response, every time someone said "you're hurting yourself in the general election with these primary positions in 2011" and lo and behold he hurt himself in the general election.

>> but i will add it's the least of her problems. in the "washington beacon" yesterday alana goodman ran a story about how hillary and sid blumenthal violated the intelligence identities act of 50 ucs 421. nominating hillary clinton would be like -- >> legal code. >> it would be like launching a nitroglycerin juggling marathon for the democrats. it's a disaster for them. so i hope she keeps doing this. >> you buy this? >> i'm not so sure. you gave the alphabet soup of alleged violations. in fact, my guess is this is not going to amount to very much. it will be a nagging problem for her. i haven't heard anything yet that seems to me to be -- to guarantee some sort of long and embarrassing legal process. we'll see. >> did you write columns on valerie plame back in the days? >> i might have. i might have occasionally. >> before i leave this topic, hugh, we had two pieces of news over the last week about the benghazi committee that hillary

clinton is ecstatic over. one is the infamous now kevin mccarthy comments and one is this whistle-blower where the disagreement is somebody said he was fired because he wasn't targeting hillary clinton enough by the republicans who are running the committee and the republicans on the committee said they fired him because he was targeting hillary clinton too much. they disagree on who fired whom and who was doing what but they agree that hillary clinton was being targeted. doesn't that hurt the committee? >> it's a big story. one of the reasons the house leadership needs to get resolved is october 22nd is a hearing date and they need to bring order back to that committee which has been run well for two years, and it's being sacrificed in the cast for the house leadership. >> before we leave the democrats i want to bring it to joe biden. peter hart had an interesting -- joe biden will make a decision soon, we think. peter hart had an interesting way to describe a potential biden candidacy. >> if he was to ask me i would say announce you will run for one term and your only objective is to pull the nation together.

there has to be a reason for him to run. it can't be about him personally and division. >> kathleen, his point is he's got to -- he's got to have something to run on and so peter's idea is run on uniting the country. that's what makes you different than hillary clinton without having to attack hillary clinton. >> and that's what got barack obama in office if you recall. he has that talent. he has the ability to engage people because he's so likable, he's so appealing and he's gone through this tragedy that yes you can't point to that as the reason for running but it will be a factor in the way people perceive him and would accept him more than they might have under other circumstances. be the one term thing is a good idea. if he says that, that gives some validity to the premise he's trying to help the country get back on its feet together. >> nathan, he has to say decide. believe it or not, there's a ballot deadline in october he has to meet. i'm told if a week from now we don't know the decision, the decision is probably no.

>> if vice president biden gets in the race he will be a credible nominee but i don't see the structural or ideological space for him to do it. democrats love joe biden. they love joe biden. i think a lot of them still want hillary clinton to be president before him. >> let's move to the republican side of the aisle. let's stick to the speaker race. i have to just say wow. i think we saw with dave brat and charlie dent, hugh, do you feel like that viewers now know, americans now know this is -- that was republican versus republican. >> if i were paul ryan -- and i'm hoping that the packers beat the rams today so he's in a good mood because i want him to agree to be the speaker -- i would ask kalty mcchorus rogers and peter roskam, two of the most respected republicans in the house, you bring in serious people, general mcchristy, condi rice, people like larry around and bill kristol, and at the end of it paul ryan says here are my terms, i will lead if you will give me 230 votes, and they should vote for him and he

should lead. he is the guy to lead. we need him to lead. >> kathleen just wrote "don't do it, paul." >> he would be a great speaker. he has the qualifications for the job and he's well like and respected. he's the brainy one in the party. anyway, they're going to do the same thing, the free daum caucus folks will do the same thing to him as they've done to everyone else because he will eventually have to have conversations with democrats. he will face these debt ceilings, these other benchmarks that they're going to fight him on. so i have said don't run because why would you? why would you walk into that horrible situation. >> why if you think paul ryan is a promising figure and he's the most responsible and intelligent and promising guy in the house on the republican side, why would you want him to have this job right now? you need somebody in there, just a sacrificial lamb to try to bring order to this caucus and then maybe set it up for somebody like paul ryan to actually preside over a working majority. >> i would like to nominate

donald trump as speaker of the house since you don't have to be a member of congress to be speaker and i think he could get things sort of the settled. >> it would be interested. >> ted cruz is already speaker. >> you did the transition to ted cruz. ted cruz is the potential presidential front-runner we don't talk about lately. there's been a marco rubio boom, jeb bush, we talk about trump, carson, fiorina. cruz has been in cruise control, nathan. raised double the amount of money, maybe the second highest fund-raising total of anybody. ted cruz is a plausible potential front-runner. >> i think you have to put ted cruz in the top tier. i think he's more likely to be the nominee than donald trump. he's probably the one on the inside holding an elected office that's best able to articulate and tap into this outsider message compared with the others. >> do you know who agrees with you on this? ted cruz. take a listen. >> i think that's right. i think in time i don't believe

that donald is going to be the nominee and i think in time the lion's share of his supporters end up with us. >> hugh hewitt, is ted cruz -- does he inherit the trump coalition and is that enough to win the nomination. >> he does. he doubled marco rubio in faund fund-raising in q3. none of them are out of it. that last stage with 11 on them, you know rubio, cruz, carly fiorina are three that will be there. >> this is a party that wants an outsider badly and it does feel like fiorina, carson, and trump, do they have the discipline and infrastructure to survive? i don't know. but cruz does. >> well, cruz does and i think he's in a good position but he's not an actual outsider. he is an actual u.s. snoenator d he's going to try to convince everybody he's not. but he is, he's a u.s. senator and that counts. >> he's an outsider to his own

party. >> that's true. he certainly ail yent ated his party but he's a technical insider and i think that counts this year. more than half the party says they want somebody who has never been elected nothing. okay? that's where we are. >> all right. well, we will leave it there but i think we are on the verge of a cruz -- the cruz moment is coming. back in just 45 seconds. we promise. with our end game segment and wait until you see what mike bloomberg said about running for president. here is a hint, he didn't exactly say no. president -- here's a hint, he didn't exactly say no. sure! i offer multi-car, safe driver, and so many other discounts that people think i'm a big deal. and boy, are they right. ladies, i can share hundreds in savings with all of you! just visit progressive.com today. but right now, it's choosing time.

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time now for "meet the press" end game brought to you by boeing where the drive to build something better inspires us every day. >> will you definitively rule out running for president in 2016? >> i'm very flattered that people would ask, you would ask, but the truth of the matter is i'm very happy doing two things, running my company and working with the united nations and the u.s. government on climate change. >> shermanesque? >> say again? >> are you going to be shermanesque? >> he was a general back in the civil war. don't you remember that? >> look at you. >> we've got to focus on climate change. >> a little history lesson, general sherman, he said if

nominated i will not run, and if i win, i will not serve. that was what was known as the shermanesque, this is my no, no, no answer. he did not give that answer. he wants to leave the door open on purpose. he knew what he was doing there. >> even when politicians say no, they say no right up to the point they say yes, i changed my mind. getting inside of a politicians head is a dangerous place. time is ticking and if you asked me if i think he's going to do it, i would have to say no. >> but he wants the threat out there. >> oh, please. >> that's clear what he wants. he wants the threat out there. independent or democrat. >> i got to add general sherman was from ohio, not michigan. i know about sherman. if he runs, every republican will pop champagne corks. he will lose every western state because of his gun control measures. please get in michael. god bless you. i want paul ryan more than you to run, but number two is michael bloomberg running for president.

>> he did look at running as an independent four years ago. and then you hear rumors if he would do this maybe he would do it inside a party this time because he fears -- >> there's no path for an independent really. it's very hard. i know that donald trump has looked at this and has decided -- michael bloomberg has a lot more money than donald trump even and doesn't have enough just to get on the ballot in all 50 states. you need to do it within a party. so which party? and i think the answer is how does he possibly get dominated in the republican party today? >> and by the way, kathleen, it all comes as we have joe biden thinking about it. you have michael bloomberg and clearly would be left of center in some form. is this fear that hillary clinton is struggling or something else? >> well, i think it's -- i think in both cases it's a matter of these individuals thinking they really would be a pretty good president, and this is something that they would do if they felt that they could win. you know, of course joe biden thinks he should be president.

ea he's tried it a couple of times. surely they're watching hillary's numbers and making some judgments along those lines. she's still not doing that well. she keeps going down. so, you know, why not consider it? but i think bloomberg is teasing. i just think why not. why not toss it out there. >> more people book him and he gets to talk about climate change and guns. >> he was clear that's what he came to talk about. >> nathan, the issue is -- the just watch our show today. the middle feels as if you have bernie sanders pulling the democratic party to the left. you have trump and the freedom caucus pulling the republican party to the right. there is this opening. i hear it from voters who say nobody represents me in the middle. >> well, but i think the number of people who say they're independent or open-minded or in the middle is a small group. ask you people are you open minded? of course i am. when is the last time you voted for a democrat. well, i think for county coroner in 1982 or something like that. but, you know, i think the middle in the general election

next november will be about mood. how do they feel about the past eight years of a democratic president? it's going to be who can -- which party can capture both their bases and bring them together. >> and hillary has said -- secretary clinton has said she wants to continue the good work of barack obama and that's not really a great selling point when you're trying to attract independents. >> turkey and nato allies shot down a russian jet this morning. we have no idea what this world is going to be like in a year and it's going to be a national security election. so i think it's going to be so dramatically different a year from now. >> it always happens. >> gene, put your prediction hat on, do we hear from ryan or biden first, by the way? somebody asked me that today, ryan or biden first? >> i think we hear from ryan first. >> i'm going to parse that statement. let's have a little fun because jeb bush gave an interview to our nbc affiliate in des moines this week and during his visit he tried his hand at being a weatherman in front of a green

screen sharing the still on twitter. guess what? green screen and twitter and the interstate and photo shop, watch out. here are some of our favorites. there's jeb with the president. i guess picking his nose. i don't know. e.t. jeb. that's a pretty good one. phone home. and there you go, right, kathleen. who doesn't want to touch the hand of god as president. >> i thought the bushes already had. >> wow. you know what? i don't know if i can top that. >> parse that. >> i was just going to say. i think we have to say that's all for this sunday. not going to touch that one at all. we'll be back next week because guess what? if it is sunday, it's "meet the press." press."

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