dirtier and anger. how much money do you have to have? you have to have some of your own and it's got to be like $10 million to $12 million a quarter. >> thanks for joining us. we are going to be back tomorrow with more "mtp daily." richard wolffe picks up our coverage next. right now on msnbc live, donald trump versus jeb bush. the back and forth over 9/11. george w. bush, america's national security and which candidate has the temperament to be commander in chief? joe biden could decide whether he's in or out in the next 48 hours. that's just hours before hillary clinton testifies before the benghazi committee. awkward timing? just maybe. and voters to the north heading to the polls today. will canada keep a leader called anti-muslim and a climate change denier? hello, i am richard wolffe. we start with breaking news at

the end of another busy day on the campaign trail. any minute, donald trump will kick off a rally in anderson, south carolina. we are watching it to begin any minute now. trump will walk into the room with new momentum a brand-new nbc news/"wall street journal" poll shows he has more support than ever before. right now he has 25% a republican support. that's 1/4 of the vote. ben carson has 22%. marco rubio has 13%, ted cruz 9%, jeb bush 8% and carly fiorina has 7%. no other candidates tops 3%. the strong poll for trump comes amid a war of words and tweets for jeb bush. last month bush said what has become a gop slogan. his brother, "kept us safe." trump is trying to poke holes observing pointedly that september 11th happened on george w. bush's watch.

>> with that being said you, i'm not blaming george bush but i don't want jeb bush to say my brother kept us safe because september 11th was one of the worst days in the history of this country. >> i don't know why he keeps bringing this up. it doesn't show that he's a serious person as it relates to being commander in chief and being the architect of a foreign policy. across the spectrum of foreign policy, mr. trump talks about things that as though he is still on the "apprentice." >> live in south carolina where trump's event should start any time. >> the event just started which explains all the cheering you can hear behind us. donald trump just walked on stage. his signature music playing around us. some really interesting things happening outside of this event right now. you mentioned the polling that shows him ahead. that's nothing new. he hasn't been on top of the polls for some time now and frequently touts and something

we'll hear tonight in just a few moments. something else going on that you touched on, jeb bush and donald trump starring over these 9/ 11 comments. george w. bush talked to people on the ground. one man said it happened, didn't it? meaning 9/11 and george w. bush being president at that time. a lot of people don't seem all that bothered by donald trump rehashing and bringing that back up again the 9/11 remarks. a lot of people i -- please. >> let's take a listen to what donald trump is saying right now. >> going to change it fast. amazing. so a couple of things i have to congratulate you. you have a football team that's doing pretty good, clemson. clemson. doing very well. doing very well. i've been hearing a lot about him. can they go all the way? i think so.

maybe. good luck. we're going to be watching. going to be interesting. we're going to be watching. so big second amendment. we're all big heavy on the second amendment. you know. you know the president's thinking about signing an executive order where he wants to take your guns away. this is new. not going to happen. that won't happen. but that's a tough one. i think that's a tough one for him to do when you actually have the second amendment. that's tough. because there's plenty of executive orders being signed. you know that. and we can't let that go on. it will all stop. it will all stop. it will stop soon because people are tired of what's going on and tired of what's happening to our country. i wanted to mention just before

i got here like ten minutes ago the "wall street journal"/nbc came out with a new poll. the headline is "trump on top highest points he's gotten so far." it's number one. do you believe it? we're doing great. we have the highest number we've had so far and they just announced, which is hard for them to say that, i have to say. we're number one position. you have a lot of people that are not doing well in that poll, i have to tell you. you have a lot of zeros. zero. zero. zero. do you know who we have that has a zero? lindsey graham. what's going on with this guy? i don't know him, but he came up to my office. i saw him one time. he wanted a campaign contribution. shocked. i was shocked to find this out. long time ago. he's been so nasty, it's incredible.

today he was being interviewed. i turn on, i see lindsey graham. what's he doing? go back to your people in south carolina. represent your people and do a good job. you know. he said, i didn't want to go to afghanistan. that's not right. afghanistan is where we should have gone, all right? i didn't want to go to iraq because i didn't want to destabilize the middle east. he doesn't understand the difference between one or the other. it's proven to be right. it's proven to be right. we've got to make our military so strong, so powerful, so incredib incredible. nobody is going to mess with us. you heard it. we've got to take care of our vets. our vets are being treat ed -- our vets are being treated so badly. you know, i brought up the

subject of illegal immigration, right? our vets are being, in many cases, treated not as well as illegal immigrants. you saw the other night. did you see the debate the other night? can you believe this? they can't give it away fast enough. what they are giving is going to cost you taxes, okay? that's all it is. but they are talking about for illegal immigrants, social security, so many other things. in los angeles, 50% of the people getting driver's license, you get a driver's license, 50% illegal immigrants. and you have to stop it. we want people to come into the country, but they have to come in legally. they have to. have to. when i brought up the subject, hard to believe i've been a

politician for three months, right? for three months, people have been saying, no, no, the polls are supposed to be wrong. because practically, not only practically, from the beginning, i've been at the top of every poll. including today. and they had an article written in one, you know from the time this guy -- when are they going to get it in their head we are doing really well? like for instance, the cameras down there, you won't see this kind of a crowd. record crowd. the folks that run the arena just came to me, they said, sir, this is the biggest crowd we ever had, by far. they didn't say close. i tell people, i go home, my wife sees me. she goes, oh, did you have many people? we have crowds like this everywhere. the reason, it's not me. it's the message. it's the message. it really is. it's the message. but they have the cameras. live cameras. cnn, fox.

everybody, msnbc. everyone. they have live cameras, but they don't ever scan the room. because if they scan the room, what happens is you'll see this kind of outpouring. it's an outpouring of love. it really is. it's an outpouring of love. scan the room. go ahead, folks. we've got time. look. they don't want to move. unbelievable. it's the thing i learned most. somebody said what have you learned the most? thank you, darling. i love you, too you know, they said what have you learned the most? what's been the biggest surprise? one, and i can't say about all journalists and all of the media, but a tremendous portion of the media is so dishonest. it really is dishonest. they don't report the facts. now for some people, they report more than the facts. i have to be honest. they have their total prejudice.

for some people they report things that are opposite. i mean literally opposite of what i'm talking about. we had one case recently where we were actually in new hampshire. we had 5,000 people. we had packed, packed, and this was in a small auditorium. they had another one next door and a kitchen in a school. people filling the kitchen with closed-circuit. then hillary -- she was a few miles literally up the road and she had, they said, 250 people. we had thousands and thousands of people. we had a crowd like this. it's crazy. crazy. then i come back and the next morning she was on the front page of the "new york times." i said what about me? what about me? but it doesn't matter because everybody understands it. we understand it. we understand what's happening.

and believe me, believe me, this is a movement. this is a movement. this is really a movement and it's a big movement and a strong movement. and we are going to take our country back. it's going to happen. so i love polls. when i did "the apprentice" i loved ratings. right? and what happened is i said to the people at nbc who are terrific people, i had a great relationship with them. of course in the end they thought i was too controversial so they did a number on miss universe. what i did is i bought them out for peanuts. then flipped the whole thing. it was such a great deal. you would have been proud of me. you would have been so proud of me. >> we've been listening to donald trump campaigning live in south carolina. he talked about the nbc news poll and the miss universe and

strong support for the second amendment. he said it's hard to believe i've been a politician for three months. it is indeed hard. donald trump the subject of today's pulse question. do you think this is a good day or bad day for donald trump? i say we go all in on the internet of things. what we're recommending as your consultants... the new consultants are here. it's not just big data, its bigger data. we're beta testing the new wearable interface... ♪ xerox believes finding the right solution shouldn't be so much work. by engineering a better way for people, process and technology to work together. work can work better. with xerox. wait, i can freeze my account. [touch tone] introducing freeze it, from discover.

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and now if you don't mind, i'm going to dial it right up to a 10. >> go right ahead. >> we're doomed. we need a revolution. millions of people on the streets and we've got to do something. and we've got to do it now. ah! >> i still find that funny. a light-hearted look at bernie sanders this weekend on "saturday night live." the vermont senator and presidential candidate is

striking a chord with american voters. sanders attracted tens of thousands of people to his rallies. more than 100,000 people have shown up to make him the biggest draw on the democratic side of the campaign trail. why are people feeling the burn? >> he's brought up some really important points. we thought he was just going to be sort of influencing the hillary campaign, but he's doing well on his own. >> i'm a big bernie fan. he follows, he's voted pretty much the same his whole career and i think that's important. no super pacs. bernie is definitely my number one right now. why pause a spontaneous moment to take a pill? or stop to find a bathroom? cialis for daily use, is approved to treat both erectile dysfunction and the urinary symptoms of bph, like needing to go frequently, day or night.

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we are back as donald trump speaks live in anderson, south carolina. to bring in right now, john ward senior political correspondent for yahoo news, dana millbank and we have to debate whether it was a good or bad day for donald trump. you have 60 seconds to say whether you think it was a good or bad day for donald trump. we have a clock we'll start you with. let's begin with john. 60 seconds, up to you. >> well, i think any week that you've got bruce willis wearing your show, that's a good week. he's been taken more seriously. he had a primetime interview on fox news. i would say counterintuitively, the moment every day you get closer to february 1st and iowa caucuses and voters and the press and other campaigns taking this process more seriously, i think it's a bad day for donald

trump. >> bad day for donald trump. you beat the buzzer, as well. we'll reset the clock and kick this over to dana millbank from "the washington post." >> it is always a good day to be donald trump. let's be clear of that at the outset. i think it is a good day because he's looking at things in the short term here. there is a certain segment of the republican electorate, a lot of people backing him who are indeed not very enthralled with the presidency of george w. bush. it's not a good move in the long run because if you look at republican voters overall, they are supportive of the last republican president and they don't want to see their nominee urinating all over the record of the last republican president. donald trump is only thinking short term so in that terms, it was a good day. >> we'll take that clock back to one minute and kick it over to

e.j. deon. you have 60 seconds, good or bad day? >> it was donald trump's best couple of days with democrats because democrats hadn't dared say some of the things he said about president bush. they wanted to raise those questions about why did 9/11 actually happen what did the administration miss? for donald trump more generally, short term he's fine. his hardcore is with him. where this might come to haunt him is later on when he's facing a more establishment republican where there are, as dana said, a lot of republicans who have affection still for president bush, but for now, i'd say good day. >> two good days, one bad day. all of you beating the clock here. i'm very impressed with you all. finally, dorian, a good or bad day for donald trump?

>> a good day for donald trump. he is feeling really well by going into south carolina and attacking a popular home state senator, lindsey graham, on his home turf. i think he's thinking he's having a good day. bad day for the republicany. much like e.j. said, every time donald trump attacks george w. bush and his record is an attack on the party and republican presidents and their administration. it was an attack on the foreign policy national security chops of george w. bush, but also the republican party much broad ir. good day for donald trump, bad day for the republican party. >> gentlemen, i want to remind our viewers at home, you can vote, too. make your own mind up. vote @pulse.msnbc.com. i wonder if we can pull up a sound byte here. we have a new campaign ad from the jeb bush campaign. three of you said this was a good day for donald trump. let's take a listen to how the bush campaign is spinning it, at least in terms of this ad.

>> who do you talk to for military advice? >> i watch the shows. >> trump says he "always felt i was in the military" despite never serving in the military and draft deferments during vietnam. >> dana, do you still think this was a good day for donald trump? >> yes only because i'm talking about it in the short run. he's at 25% in your poll in south carolina. he's always around there, maybe up to 30%. you don't win the republican nomination with 30%. you need to get that majority. i don't see how he gets that. the reason is because there is a significant majority even within the republican electorate that says this guy is a clown. he just can't be the nominee. i don't know how we get to that point exactly because he's doing as well as anybody else in the

next nearest is ben carson. he is holding his own. i just don't see how he grows that enough to get the nomination, whereas you can see one of the establishment guys doing that? >> which candidate would want to be a joke? your case is strong here. it was a bad day. >> well, thank you, richard. the reason i say that every day you get closer to election day or caucus day is a bad day is because i think to this point you haven't had the investigative units in most major newspapers and television stations, and even campaign opo teams giving their full treatment to donald trump. i think we are at a point where people are writing things like, oh my god, the establishment actually thinks he could be the nominee not only are voters going to take this process more seriously as we get closer to

february, but i think the people who would actually come after donald trump are going to take it more seriously. they are not going to try to discredit him with moderates or liberals. they are going to try to discredit him on conservative issues. >> e.j., it wouldn't be a donald trump discussion if we didn't refer to his tweets from the day. let's pull out a couple of these tweets he put out today. jeb, why did your brother attack and destabilize the middle east by attacking iraq when there were no weapons of mass destruction in bad info? if trump keeps pushing jeb bush on his brother, what's the chance it backfires? is this, in fact, a risky scenario for him even as he gets short-term gain? what do you think? >> i think they have jeb bush and trump weapons pointed at each other. as dorian suggested, it's not good for jeb bush to be talking about george w. bush. he needs to distance himself

some from his brother, not in a personal way, but on this policy. jake tamper asked bush the question, if it's not okay to question what responsibility bush had about 9/11, then why is it okay to question hillary clinton and barack obama about benghazi? i think trump has created a complexity in particular for jeb bush, but also for the republican party in the long run. that may hurt him a bit later on when more partisan republicans he's facing are more normal republican. but for the short term, i think he's fine. >> last word, dorian warren. i guess these polls are good news for donald trump. he said so in south carolina. last word, good or bad day? >> good day. by the way, when jeb bush has to run ads, he is leaking money that donald trump doesn't have to spend because he gets free

advertising with us talking about him, with other media outlets talking about him. he is everywhere and all for free. jeb bush is spending money to respond to trump's attacks. it's a smart tragedy on trump's part to go after these folks. last thing i would say, and i agree with almost everything dana says, but in today's nbc/"wall street journal" poll there is a slight uptick in the number of republican voters who say they would back trump even though he is not their first or second choice. it's 59% republican gop voters, republican primary voters say they would support him for president. >> gentlemen, thank you very much for weighing in on our question of the day. the voting stays open at msnbc.com. my thanks to all of you. don't forget to watch dorian on thursdays at 11:00 a.m. eastern on shift by msnbc. let's take a quick look at

the results of today's pulse question. do you think it was a good day for bad day for donald trump? 60% said good day. 40% said bad day. keep voting @pulse.msnbc.com. still ahead, hillary clinton's benghazi testimony could have a major impact on the 2016 race. will joe biden get in before she is in the hot seat? >> and he may be down in the polls, but ted cruz is getting a whole lot of attention on social media. we'll show you what's trending in 2016 ahead.

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if you want to know what the 2016 candidates may say next on the campaign trail, take a look at their social media accounts. they can get a good idea of what resonates and what doesn't online before they ever start writing a speech or a tv ad.

what's trending among the 2016 candidates and their accounts. thanks for joining us. >> thanks for having me. >> what's popping right now? >> candidates are doing a lot of self-promotion today like any other day. we use crowd tangle to poll candidate facebook posts trending today and getting a lot of high engagement. the top post today that got the most engagement was this post from ted cruz talking about texas defunding planned parenthood. governor greg abbott announced they would be defunding planned parenthood today. ted cruz got celebratory and rallying his fans around this. >> what else is moving? >> martin o'malley has the next highest engaged post on facebook today. this is a promo for him being on "the daily show" tonight. he has a nice graphic which probably got the engagement. it's got a head shot of him and

"daily show" host trevor noah. >> it's working for him. he's using the trevor noah factor to get more facebook engagement. >> we have more ted cruz? >> we do. ted cruz is getting a lot of engagement on facebook. he may not have the biggest audience, but he has got the most engaged fans on facebook. his post here was celebrating that he won the north carolina tea party caucus. his fans got into this. they are very excited. lots of excited comments. he's got a very engaged and local base here. >> super important point there. not as many fans, but his fans are really engaged. that is a good sign for him. >> definitely. >> and one more, i think we have. >> yeah. we have marco rubio. he is taking advantage of facebook's media video player here. when you embed them directly, auto play in the news feed and get a lot of engagement that way. he has a savvy idea posting a clip from his rally which got

15,000 views and a bit of engagement. >> a big difference with jeb bush is common core. that can't be a small point for his fans there. >> it's a big point for his fans and they were rallying around him. >> let's do a quick look google map. most searched candidates. >> we pulled data from google trends. they broke down the most searched candidate on google today in every state. you see there's only two candidates dominating google search. bernie sanders in many of the western and eastern states and donald trump in many southern and midwestern states. >> interesting, there are only two candidates people are searching for. >> it's possible hillary and jeb came in or other candidates came in second, but this chart only shows the most searched candidates. >> fascinating stuff, thank you. >> thank you. still ahead, big developments in the 2016 race. joe biden is said to be less than two days away from deciding

if he'll get into the race that. could just be hours before hillary clinton testifies on benghazi. and can a candidate whose's been called anti-muslim keep leading our neighbors to the north? why canada's conservative prime minister could be ousted after nine years. life's all about learning.... asking questions.... having new experiences. are you ready? the key to a happy satisfying life is to always be curious. jibo, how are you doing? i'm great! every moment is our moment. are you enjoying this? it's been such a whirlwind. i want to get to know people and understand their ideas about everything. so you can too. therthat can be serious,ere. even fatal to infants. it's whooping cough, and people can spread it without knowing it. understand the danger your new grandchild faces.

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about the rumors. >> there is no denying that vice president biden is somebody who brings a lot of energy to his current job. based on the fact he has run for president twice before, i think should be a clear indication that he believes that he's got something to offer to that debate. and to offer to the country. >> in less than 72 hours, democratic front-runner hillary clinton is due to testify before the house select committee on benghazi. it will be a significant moment for the candidate and for the committee, which has struggled to defend itself after several republicans said its purpose was to target clinton. joining me now, republican strategist adolfo franco and chief investigative correspondent for yahoo news, my friend michael isikoff. thank you for being here. i would like to start out with what people have been saying about the benghazi committee. there have been so many doubts

raised by republicans about its true purpose, is it a benghazi committee or e-mail committee or designed to go after hillary clinton? isn't there a credibility question that this committee faces now, adolfo? >> i don't think so. this is the same thing we've seen in washington in any of these commit he's. when is an investigative committee not put through a political prism? s i've seen it 30 years in washington. comments have been made similar to those made by congressman mccarthy and others. i've never seen an investigative committee that one side or the other hasn't tar its political. when you're on the receiving end it's all political. when you're on the investigative side, it's looking for the facts. i think this committee, frankly, is looking for the facts. they put in charge a very well respected prosecutor. his credibility as a prosecutor and his reputation is on the line unlike other members. lastly, on the political front, the question we should be asking ourselves is why is the john

kerry state department providing e-mails that have been requested by this committee for over a year two or two weeks o before the hearing? they dragged their feet. there is a political dynamic on the democratic side to discredit the committee and not cooperate with it. >> that is one question, but michael, you had a great report in yahoo today talking about how the benghazi panel outed a cia source and tried to cover its tracks. >> a couple of weeks ago, chairman gowdy had released a letter making much of the fact that there was an e-mail he had gotten hold of from sudden any blumenthal to hillary clinton that he said disclosed the name of a sensitive human source for the cia in libya. hillary clinton then forwarded that e-mail to a colleague and he cited that as evidence that he said debunked hillary clinton's claim she did not send

or receive classified information on her private e-mail server. that got some attention at the time. i was among a number of people who reported on that. then over the weekend, the came kind of blew up in trey gowdy's face. the cia informed the committee it did not view any of the blumenthal e-mails including that one having classified information. he pushed back and said it was sensitive and shouldn't have been released. then he released the text of the e-mail that he said redacted the identity of this supposed sensitive source, but as i noticed in a story we published today, the committee included in the subject line the identity of that source the former libyan intel chief who defected to the united kingdom in march 2011. >> this is a bit of a credibility problem right here,

isn't it? if you are going after hillary clinton's e-mails on the question how to handle classified information, you cannot be loose with it yourself as a committee. >> well, but if you are going to the credibility question, with all due respect, i think we have to ask ourselves how secretary clinton has handled this from the beginning. talk about a different tack in a different story on when she had the server put in, when she actually looked at e-mails, when e-mails were classified, not classified. the story has been constantly changed by secretary clinton herself. the fact of the matter is maybe chairman gowdy got this wrong. i don't know that for specific. to single out one communication, one instance when the secretary herself has been so inconsistent throughout this entire process. that is why i agree with bob woodward. i think there is a lot more here. he knows about investigations, a lot more here than meets the eye. let the committee do its work. i think the committee might be

mistaken on occasion, but i can tell you clearly, and i think you've done a good job in the press, of exposing the inconsistencies in secretary clinton's stories and how she used the server. >> mike, quickly, a new poll out today, democratic poll shows clinton has the most to gain if joe biden stays out. hillary clinton, 48%, bernie sanders 28%, joe biden at 17%. if biden doesn't run, hillary clinton is a 57%, bernie sanders 24%. she wins in either scenario here. if he's out, it's much better news for hillary clinton, right? >> yeah. look, joe biden has been the one threat to hillary clinton's candidacy for months now. bernie sanders, while he's got a lot of momentum and enthusiasm probably can't win the nomination, joe biden could, but

if joe biden is really going to get in this week as some reports indicate, i think what everybody is going to look for is what is the rationale for the candidacy? how does he distinguish himself from hillary clinton on issues and questions of character? does he bring that up? does he bring up the e-mails and trust and honesty as an issue against hillary clinton? he didn't when he ran against her in 2008. we'll see if he's ready to do it now. jud >> those are questions i'm sure he is pondering right now. thank you. >> thank you. >> still ahead, millions of voters are heading to the polls in canada today where one of the leading contenders is facing accusations of using islama-phobia and dog whistle politics to get ahead. this is claira. to prove to you that aleve is the better choice for her she's agreed to give it up. that's today? we'll be with her all day to see how it goes. after the deliveries, i was ok.

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to let muslim women wear the veil when they take the oath of citizenship, a rare event in canada, as it turns out. >> so after nine years, will canadians stick with harper or will liberal leader justin trudeau become canada's next leader? >> i think you are in harper headquarters in calgary, is that right? >> i sure am. hi, richard. >> explain us to, how come harper, true, hardcore conservative, how come he stayed in power so long in canada? >> that is a great question. this was just his first majority government. he had minority governments before that. the political climate was ripe for the prime minister at the time. there had been successive, more progressive governments that had been involved in scandals. he was the face of accountability and transparency. that's what he brought to

parliament at the beginning. things very much changed once his government became a majority. those ideals for a lot of voters, i think, seemed to slip by the wayside. now the predominant feeling that you hear anecdotally and see in the polls in this election is a desire for change. >> so my canadian friends tell me he's their george w. bush, is that fair? >> no. i don't think so. maybe it depends who you ask. i think in no way is he perhaps as to the right as we perceive george w. bush to be here in canada, but certainly compared to other leaders we had here, he is very conservative, and especially as the years went on even more conservative in a number of things you talked about, like the syrian refugee issue. that kind of thing. that seemed to rub people the wrong way in certain instances in this election. >> i want to quote what he said about this veil issue and during citizenship ceremonies. this was in a debate last month.

he said when we join the canadian family, we should not hide our identity. never will i say to my daughter that a woman has to cover her face because she's a woman. which sounds reasonable, but this is dog whistle politics, isn't it? >> it is. interestingly, the conservatives and mr. harper's issue on the niqab issue, there are only two women in canada that tried to wear a niqab. it turned out to be somewhat of a popular thing for the prime minister. his party decided to announce the set up of a tip line to call if you believe you know someone who might be committing a barbaric cultural practice. that, it seems, took this whole niqab issue and pushed it too far for canadians. >> just to recap those polls, justin trudeau's liberal party, 37%. i think it is conservatives at

30.9% and new democratic party at 21.7%. it looks like the liberals are a lock maybe? >> it's hard to say. we are nervous about our polls in this country we know what happened in britain not too long ago and had the same thing happened where the pollsters are saying one thing and it doesn't happen election night. the big question is will it be a minority or will it be majority? in that case, does harper, the prime minister, step down? >> great stuff. thank you very much. >> coming up, candidates are making a huge splash in the 2016 race. (patrick 1) what's it like to be the boss of you? (patrick 2) pretty great. (patrick 1) how about a 10% raise? (patrick 2) how about 20? (patrick 1) how about done? (patrick 2) that's the kind of control i like...

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in the stomach where it belongs. for fast-acting, long-lasting relief. try gaviscon®. welcome back to the show. so far the 2016 election has one defining principle, outsiders are winning. even though hillary clinton is leading national polling, bernie sanders is doing way better than any expert predicted he would at this point. donald trump and ben carson take

up nearly 50% in every gop poll including our new nbc news "wall street journal" poll. the seeds were sewn by many people throughout history. one of the most successful campaigns was that of patrick j. buchanan. in many ways his 1992/'96 campaigns laid the foundation for trends we are seeing today. look at this landmark moment from a speech he gave in new hampshire in february 1996. >> shocked them with alaska and stunned them in louisiana and stunned them in iowa and they are in a terminal panic in washington. they are frightened. they hear the shouts of the peasants from over the hill. you watch the establishment, all the nights and barrens will ride into the castle. they're coming. all the peasants are coming with

pitch forks after them. we are going to take this over the top. >> my next guest was in the room during that pitch fork speech. jonathan alter is an msnbc political analyst and daily beast columnist. thanks for joining us. the echos are strong here. which one do you think is closest? is it bernie sanders or donald trump? >> that's what's fascinating from the left wing of the democratic party to the right wing of the republican party. they come together on this issue of trade. you saw that in 1996 and 1992 with pat buchanan way over on the right but made common cause with a lot of labor unions and more liberal democrats on that issue. at that time it was nafta. now it's the trans pacific partnership. we see trade as a big issue in our politics, not because it's sexy to talk about on television but because it really relates directly to jobs. people truly believe that jobs are at stake in these trade deals and it makes for a

populism in our politics. >> we had that at the top of the show. when donald trump is in south carolina, he was talking about jobs for immigrants versus jobs for veterans. he is still playing that today. he thinks it works. >> it's funny seeing a guy leading a peasants with pitch forks campaign from trump tower. the other thing about these insurgencies and outsiders, they almost never win the white house, especially if they haven't held elective office before. in the entire history of this country, we only had four presidents who had not held elective office before. all of them were generals in the u.s. military. >> i'm glad you raised that issue of the military. we are getting reports late today jim webb running as a democrat right now is considering an independent run. is there going to be another military guy who tries to run as an outsider here? >> i think so. jim webb is an insider and outsider. he was in the reagan cabinet.

was united states senator from virginia. he is also very much of a populist, especially on these economic issues, more conservative on the social issues like guns. too conservative for the democratic party, as we saw in that last debate. unclear if he runs as an independent whether he will take more white men from the republicans or lunch bucket union democrats from the democratic party. it will be very interesting if he decides to make that race. >> the pitch forks resonate. that poppism, especially since the great recession. that is a driving force in politics today. >> very strong force and something i think caught the political establishment by surprise. you now see hillary clinton retreating on trade. on 40 occasions she expressed support for this new trade deal, now saying she is against it as written. >> we have to wrap it up there. we'll keep an eye out for the pitch forks.

>> always fun. >> thank you for watching nbc live. i'm richard wolffe. "hardball" starts right now. >> he koept us safe. no he didn't. let's play "hardball." good evening, i'm chris matthews in washington. it was warm in the sun today, but the strong chill in the shade reminds us that winter is coming and soon will be halloween and thanksgiving and christmas and new year's. by then we will be in the thick of picking a president. what strikes me about the campaign so far is it took a political newcomer, donald trump to say something we already knew but nobody said before. that president george w. bush did not keep us safe in the eight years he was president of the united states. he didn't keep us safe or the people on those pla