chris hayes is up next. carson passes trump in first national poll. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews out in los angeles. well, the republican dance of defiance continues with angry voters, at least for a time changing partners. the people out in the country, the right-wing people, still don't like the established gop, all struggling down in the single digits. well, the vital question is which of the two champions of attack, donald trump or dr. ben carson, has the heart to fight it out when it gets close and nasty down the line? well, right now, many on the right are using carson as a place to rest, watch, and think. they want to say something powerful about change, but are not that sure of trump.

what they're not ready to take are the names listed for months, years in the case of jeb bush, on that sad menu of hopefuls in the undercard of the establishment. here's what i think is going on right now. i think donald trump, whatever the wavering in the polls this week, is the one candidate who could promise real success on the economy, if the economy is the key issue. and it promises to be the topic of tomorrow night's cnbc debate. trump has a record to sell. dr. carson doesn't have the prescription. cruz is simply angry. rubio hasn't been around a single term yet. and bush looks bushed. so let's get ready for the battle at the top. trumpers and carson at tomorrow night's roller derby when the jostling and trash talk is over, who will still be on track? let's look at this. in today's cbs "new york times" poll, dr. carson has quadrupled his support since august and leads trump by four points nationally.

rubio at 8, fiorina at 7, bush 7, and everyone else fighting for skraps. carson's rise comes amid of a flurry of wild statements by him. but republican voters love it, especially in iowa. a recent "des moines register" poll asks likely republican caucusgoers, that where people go to the caucus, their thoughts about some of carson's statements on the campaign trail. ladies and gentlemen, is astounding. 81%, four out of five, said they like carson's statement that obamacare is the worst thing since slavery. 77%, about the same, say they like his comments that hitler would have been stopped if the people were armed. and 73% said they like his comments that the u.s. shouldn't elect a muslim president. david corn, i guess i found the linkup. they like him because he says the crazy stuff they actually mouth. whether they actually believe it or not, they mouth it. you know?

that the third reich could have been stopped if we had an nra in germany. that's a nice -- well, it's a crazy thought. but it goes with their thinking. your thoughts? >> well, dr. carson has a very mild disposition, but his views are very, very extreme and his rhetoric is very in excess, and he also doesn't know a lot about policy. he couldn't describe what the debt ceiling was recently. but, yet, he does mouth the sentiments that donald trump does, and that other republicans and social conservatives do, but in a much more appealing, less crude manner. and i do think, you know, his story is one of personal transformation, salvation, it appeals a lot to the religious right. and they, you know, as you've said for months now, chris, they don't want someone with a resume. in fact, dr. carson sent out e-mail today, a fund-raiser, in which he says he believes political experience is not necessary. what you need to have is faith, honesty, and character.

that's what you need to be president. you don't need to know much. and a lot of people out there say, that's right, we want an outsider. day don't care about what his past has been in terms of pls policy issues, but he is talking in extreme terms,. >> this is like a rural medicine show. with a guy in a medicine sitting out front, selling his latest is no troms. the religious thing, to have an african-american guy like he is, a respected surgeon, a respected citizen, after saying that the health care program, which was fighting for to try to get for years to try to refine what americans will like in excess, to compare it to slavery. chains, whips, no marriages, no children, no education. living in servitude from birth to death. he's comparing obamacare to that?

with that smiling face? >> you're reading it wrong. you're reading it wrong, because you're trying to parse the word, which is exactly what carson voters and trump voters, for that matter, hate. they hate people like us, saying, here's what so-and-so said or said wrong. the strength of these candidates is their ability to say almost anything and as long as it seems like it's sincere and from the heart, their voters, the base voters they're going for say, you know what, that's right. we're tired of the political correctness. we're tired of you guys saying we can't say "slavery" or "hitler." gosh darn it, this is the right guy. >> well, we can say wacko birds. john mccain coined that phrase. his statements. stumped lindsey graham. here's what he had to say about carson's one-two punch in the polls >> on our side, you have the number two guy who tried to kill somebody at 14 and the number one guy is high-energy and crazy as hell.

how am i losing to these people? >> well, that's desperate talk. senator graham is referring to carson's own account of a remarkable episode in his life that he says took place when he was 14 years old. carson has spoken openly about that incident. here he is on nbc's "meet the press". >> there was a time when i was very volatile as a teenager. i would go after people with rocks and bricks and baseball bats and hammers, and of course, many people know the story, when i was 14 and i tried to stab someone. >> they don't know, of course. and here's carson with a more vivid account of the incident at a presidential forum last week. >> i would go after people with baseball bats and rocks and bricks and hammers, but when i was 14, another teenager angered me and i took a large camping knife and i tried to stab him in the abdomen. and fortunately, under his clothing, he had on a large melt belt buckle and the knife felt with such force, it broke and he fled in terror, but i was more

horrified that he recognized that i was trying to kill someone over nothing. >> david, i guess it's better when a doctor, instead of says stomach, says abdomen. i've never heard of an assailant using the term "abdomen," when talking about trying to put a knife in somebody's gut. it is a weird story. he obviously believes that it's part of his revival of spirit. >> well, the full story here, which social conservatives have been hearing from him from years, and reading in the many books he's written about, is that he basically transforms himself by becoming a devout believer. in his religion is seventh-dayed a eventtism. but he talks about turning to god and realizing there is something bigger than himself and that took care of his anger problem. and this strikes a chord with social conservatives who like that sort of rags to riches, through god, story. now, he is running on the basis that he has faith. and i think it's going to open, you know, a big can here.

because, you know, he does come from a church that believes in end times, prophesies, and he's said he believes in the church's teachings. and so i think if he's running, as a qualification, which he is, then there should be, sensitively, some questions put to him, but what that means and what he takes from the church. and you know, we haven't -- donald trump has crudely tried to raise this as an issue, as trump is want to do with most things, but i think there are serious issues here about his faith and how he tends to apply it, should he win control of the federal government. >> well, tomorrow night, cnbc's debate doesn't get to the end of times. it probably deals with economy, knowing john harwood and the rest of them. mr. trump sees carson, obviously, as vulnerable, on the hugely important issue of the economy, which is the key focus of tomorrow night's debate. on sunday, trump tweeted, ben carson has never created a job in his life. well, maybe a nrs. i have created tens of thousands of jobs, it's what i do. then he dismisses carson's tax plan, which he models on

tithing, as a total nightmare. >> trump losing in polls to carson. carson?! i don't think carson's going to negotiate really well with china, folks, in all fairness, okay, i don't think so. and i like him. i don't think so. >> i think the big thing, also, is he's just not going to be able to do with deals with china. to do deals with japan. these companies are all ripping us like nobody has ever ripped us before. >> i will make some of the great trade deals. i will bring our jobs back. i'll bring our money back. i'll bring our manufacturing back. ben cannot do that. >> you know, i wondered, paul, whether people who are voting in these primary polls are really voting novemberish. even with bernie sanders, i would say, you really want bernie sanders, a co. in the vietnam war to be head of our force?

are you thinking of that job description, or are you trying to send a message of populist politics and progressive politics, which would be a fair excuse. but you picking a president? is dr. carson an actual candidate for president of our armed forces, to deal with the fed, to deal with the budget, to deal with everything in terms of the macro economics of this country. i mean, where are people thinking his ability would come from, would spring from in that regard? >> well -- >> but the same problem, donald trump has some of the same problems as being somebody who you're not sure he really has policies on a lot of these things, other than, i will be donald trump, and that will be a winning kind of policy. >> at least he knows now to make money. it's somewhat related. i know there's something between macro and micro, was when a guy's made $11 billion, he's worth to at least listening to. >> and started with an $11 million loan from his father. part of it is this -- you know, every campaign, we see this. early in the season, voters

flirt with these candidates, who are a little bit off the mainstream, because they like the idea, it's kind of fun, and then sooner or later, they sort of settle back into a candidate who they think can be president of the united states. but at the moment, there's certainly nothing to lose, if you are a conservative voter, from spending time, you know, donald trump or ben carson, as your favorite. and -- >> you think they're both parking places? >> maybe they are -- >> yok -- >> i think it's more than that. i think it represents a really pretty profound alienation of a large portion of the republican base and for some degree from reality. they look at the obama years as abomination and they want hell to pay and want someone to go to washington and blow things up. >> and they think carson can do it in a different fashion. >> i agree. >> the polling shows that people are much more committed to trump than they are to carson at this

point. the ones who are for trump are for trump. anyway, late today, ohio governor presidential candidate john kasich said he's had enough of trump and carson. let's watch. >> i want to let y'all know, do you know how crazy this election is? let me tell you something. i've about had it with these people. what has happened to our party? what has happened to the conservative movement? >> quick, david, we've had three serious people now, lindsey graham, he, and of course jeb bush, all in the last 24 hours, saying they've had it. what does that mean? yeah, i've had it, too. >> i think what happens here, the gop has sort of exploited this resentment out there and with the tea party and such and now the tea party is demanding payback, and the republicans are saying, whoa, now we're not that crazy about you guy. you notice when kasich said that, there wasn't a rousing cheer, there was nervous giggling in that crowd. i think that tells you a lot.

>> i think this isn't very chuckle worthy. anyway, thank you, david corn and paul singer. i'll be in boulder, colorado, tomorrow night for the big republican debate. join me at 7:00 eastern for all the pre-game action on "hardball" and come back at 10:00 p.m. eastern for post-game reaction and analysis. coming up, it's not just the two republicans making news. we have big, hard evidence now that hillary clinton's good run over the last week or so is paying off at the polls. she's huge right now in iowa and her party seems to be coming together around her. i'll talk to senator sherrod brown of ohio who's just endorsed her today over bernie sanders. plus, john boehner cut that budget deal to keep the government running in part to help out his successor, paul ryan, so why is ryan trashing the whole thing? and it's tuesday, which means it's clown car day here at "hardball." and today donald trump, ben carson, and good old mike huckabee are doing the driving. finally, the "hardball" roundtable tells us something even i don't know. this is "hardball," the place

for politics. [ horn honks melody ] well, well. if it isn't the belle of the ball. gentlemen. you look well. what's new, flo? well, a name your price tool went missing last week. name your what, now? it gives you coverage options based on your budget. i just hope whoever stole it knows that it only works at progressive.com. so, you can't use it to just buy stuff? no. i'm sorry, gustav. we have to go back to the pet store. [ gustav squawks ] he's gonna meet us there. the name your price tool. still only at progressive.com.

president obama was renominated in 2012, but mitt romney went on to win the state. let's see who's on top of either side in north carolina. time for the "hardball" scoreboard. on the republican side, donald trump is leading the field. he's at 31%, according to a poll, ben carson is at 23%. marco rubio rounds out the top three at just 11. on the democratic side, hillary clinton is way up. she's got 61%. bernie sanders has just 24%. martin o'malley, a distant third at just five. we'll be right back.

welcome back to "hardball." two new polls out just today paint the same picture of the democratic race out in iowa. hillary clinton has a commanding lead now. clinton is 38 points ahead of her closest rival, senator bernie sanders. according to the latest loris college poll. she does even better in a new monmouth university poll, beating sanders by 41 points, 61-24.

as sanders falls further behind, he's unleashing his strongest tobaccos yet on clinton, challenging her shifting views on trade, gay marriage, the iraq war and other issues. here he was on the "today" show just this morning. >> i have from almost day one in the congress, known that our trade policies have been a disaster for american workers. we have lost millions of decent-paying jobs. >> but the subtex is that hillary clinton hasn't picked up that fight where you have. >> well, let me just say this. let me put it this way. i am delighted that in the last couple of months, hillary clinton has come on board positions i have held for many, many years, on trade, on the keystone pipeline. if you are serious about climate change, you never support the transportation of some of the dirtiest fuel on earth. i'm glad that hillary clinton is moving in my direction. >> well, meanwhile, hillary clinton got an important endorsement today. senator sherrod brown of ohio, one of the most prominent

progressives in the u.s. senate, he announced he was backing her. senator brown joins us now. thank you so much for joining us on this big news day. >> good to be with you, thank. >> what was in your thinking in making this decision between -- i don't know if you're in the middle of these two, but you're pretty close to probably senator sanders, but also, you're a pretty regular democrat, too. and he's not a democrat. he's a socialist. how did your thinking come to be today in this endorsement? >> well, first, i've been really pleased, as progressives has been and democrats are. and i think the country is in many ways, too, to contrast the democratic debates with republican debates, in the year. and particularly bernie sanders and hillary clinton, when they sometimes disagree and they don't often, but when they disagree, they've done it respectfully and done it with showing respect to the voters. you look at the republican debates and they border sometimes on discussions of race and xenophobia and no respect for voters in the end. it's made me proud that -- to watch the two of them on these

debates, as i look forward to the next in the same way. i've had long conversations with secretary clinton, with her staff people, and i have -- i'm pleased with what she's talking about. i have total confidence that in this campaign, once she's elected, she will fight for growing the middle class, from the middle out, that she will pay great attention to working class voters in giving them opportunity in joining the middle class. she will have a focus particularly on low-income children, on everything from lead-based paints. there was a terrific piece last week on that challenge and cities around the country. and she's had such a long history with fighting for children and particularly children with less privilege. so i'm very confident that we're going to see the kind of presidency that i think will make progressives crowd. >> we don't have a strong socialist party in this country, like you do in europe, or a lot of these advanced countries, social democratic party like you have in most of the advanced countries.

what does it mean to you? bernie sounds to me like a liberal democrat in all of the positions he's taken. you could say on the labor left or whatever, but basically like a social democratic -- a member of the democratic party. why do you think he keeps saying he's a socialist and hasn't ran on the democratic line before? i mean, he's not the only one moving around politically. he seems to move to the senator. hillary says she's moved over to him. who's had the most movement? >> i don't know who moves. i think that's a discussion for the panel after we talk or -- >> no, it's for the voter. >> but i know both hillary and bernie, what they're talking about, trade agreements, wall street reform, minimum wage, creating jobs and increasing wages appeal -- it's mainstream america. not mainstream democrats. it's mainstream america. 70, 80% of americans think that congress should concentrate on creating jobs. think that congress should concentrate on increasing wages, paying as the labor department

is doing now in the obama administration, making sure supervisory people making 30,000, 40,000 a year should be eligible for overtime. all those issues are such a part of mainstream democratic politics, and frankly, mainstream america. and i don't see that much difference between the two of them. regardless of what bernie has called himself over the years, or what hillary has called herself. i think they both have -- speak to the great american tradition of democrat -- solid democratic policies of creating a middle class and lifting up working people. that's what i'm all about with this endorsement and what drives me in politics, i started hanging out at the steelworkers' hall in mansfield, ohio. >> thank you so much, senator sherrod brown, who endorsed hillary clinton today. well, hillary clinton took issue with something that bernie sanders said at the last democratic debate. sanders was responding to criticism by clinton over his record on guns. >> and as a senator from a rural

state, what i can tell secretary clinton that all the shouting in the world is not going to do what i would hope all of us want, and that is to keep guns out of the hands of the people that should not have those guns and end this horrible violence that we are seeing. >> over the weekend, secretary clinton slammed bernie's use of the word "shouting." i've been told to stop, and i quote, shouting about gun violence. well, first of all, i'm not shouting. it's just when women talk, some people think we're shouting. i've been told to stop shouting about ending violence. well, i haven't been shouting, but sometimes when a woman speaks out, some people think it's shouting. but i won't be silenced and i hope you won't be either!

how many more people have to die before we take action? >> well, senator sanders responded to that on cnn. >> what i was talking about, very clearly, is that all across this country, you've got people shouting at each other. >> right, but she's suggesting that you're saying -- >> well, she's -- >> -- that she's shouting and that you -- when you hear a woman -- >> well, i am not -- >> -- that you think that they are shouting. >> well, what can i say? that's just not the case. >> nicholas conversorry is with "the new york times." and heidi is here. it is true that bernie sanders has used these same remarks in the past to talk about gun control. but it's also true that he said it -- he addressed it to clinton and if you remember in the post-debate analysis was that

secretary clinton kind of pulled back a little bit after that and maybe was a little bit more aware and hesitant of how she was coming across. is this good politics. i can say definitively to that, yes, i was at the rally when she made those comments and there was a group of democratic woman voters in front of me and they all looked at each other and nodded, uh-huh. there's not a woman out there, republican or democrat, who hasn't in the professional world experienced different standards for decorum, whether it's in a meeting or in an office setting. so women can kind of relate to that. at the same time, i can say that this has been a staple of bernie's stump speech. i think he was a little bit taken off guard that she would come back and attack him on that. he just didn't think about adjusting it for the circumstances. >> well, if sander's key strategist ted divine told politico yesterday, the clinton criticism of his language was totally out of line. divine said, if they're going to have an attack that says he engages in sexism, that's unacceptable.

we're not going to sit here and let her attack him. we'll have to talk about other things if they do that. well, nick, what is that? what are these other things they've been holding in their quiver for further use? >> well, so far, it's been this kind of magical campaign of unicorns without real attacks from either camp, right? so what we're going to see now, as bernie sanders perhaps draw some real contrast with hillary clinton on railroad, and more importantly, consistency. the magic of bernie sanders for his supporters is that here is a guy who has believed the same things for a long time and his views are final in vogue. he'll attack her and say, look, on keystone, on trade agreements, on wall street, that i was there first and she was not. >> well, what is this yelling and shouting thing? first of all, bernie yells all the time, nick. let's look at it from twoi guys' point of view. and i think there's a real issue here, i think that heidi is right. because as a reporter, i've observed it.

but i've also observed that hillary clinton will be a genius at what's called political sdi, strategic defense. anything that could be an attack along gender lines will be thrown back at the opponent to his or her unhappiness, right? >> yeah, look, it was a bit of a cheap shot on her part. >> reagan was gooded a this, too. some of the best lines in politics are retorts. they pretending or acting as if you're the one playing defense against someone you can portray as playing offense, who's often put you in a very popular position, as she's in right now playing defense on this thing. >> she knows and he knows it wasn't a remark about gender, so it was kind of a cheap shot. on the other hand, it's politics. politics is full of cheap shots. what's interesting is that bernie sanders did not seem really prepared for that kind of a knife fight. his campaign all along has been about him and his message. what we're seeing now, can he continue to hold that idea if he has to also be in a knife fight in politics.

>> heidi, here's a question for bernie sanders in his 70s, he has to now adjust to a battle between the sexes, if you will, that becomes cartoonish, perhaps. he has to learn how to come out and say words he's always said in a way that doesn't carry that extra angle of jrnd. >> and i think we see this across issues, chris. i was at the dnc event in the morning, where clinton first made her remarks, and he spoke before her, and i was kind of struck by the fact that he didn't adjust his talking points, his stump speech at all. i mean, he had a couple of issues sprinkled in there, for example, on abortion and health care, but i think that goes across all of the issues, for bernie sanders. so i think it's just something not just for women, but for gays and for anything pretty much that's not -- that's outside of his economic populist bailiwick. >> and i think women are becoming enormously influenced in the democratic party. i think -- >> well -- >> go ahead, heidi.

>> they are a higher percentage of the voting population, period, full stop. anyone who gets a higher percentage of the women's vote wins. we all know that, she knows that. and might i also add today, this is all coinciding with a new ad campaign that she is launching in iowa and new hampshire. so it's all kind of rolled into one bundle. >> i think it's time that politicians recognize that the majority voter is a woman. thank you so much, heidi przybyla. after bipartisan arguments bring about an agreement, believe it or not, the complaining has begun. even from paul ryan, future king. anyway, the "hardball" roundtable is back.

you know, a bipartisan agreement in a town that isn't known for a lot of bipartisanship, you're going to see bricks flying from those that don't like the fact there's a bipartisan agreement. it's a solid agreement and i told my colleagues, there isn't

any reason why any member should vote against it. i made it clear a month ago when i announced that i was leaving that wanted to do my best to clean the barn. and i didn't want him to walk into a dirty barn full of you know what. so i've done my best to try to clean it up. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was the outgoing speaker john boehner saying he cleaned up the barn before paul ryan takes over as speaker in a few days. boehner was praising the bipartisan budget deal brokered late last night. the agreement avoids a default on our nation's debt and reduces the chances of a government shutdown. but while some view the accord as a gift to paul ryan, ryan himself was less gracious. >> i haven't even seen this agreement, so i'm going to reserve judgment until i can actually see something on paper. if you want to ask me what i think about this process, i think our process stinks. under our new management, we are not going to run the house this week. we should have been discussing this months ago as members so we have a more coherent strategy. in the future, we need a better process than the one that's

working if we want to do the people's business the right way. >> here's how john boehner reacted to ryan's remarks. >> this is not the way to run a railroad. certainly, it's not the process i would want. remember what the alternative was. the alternative was a clean debt ceiling or a default on our debt. and it also means that we got to december 11th, we could be facing another government shutdown. and so when you look at the alternative, it starts to look a whole lot better. >> michael needham told "the new york times," in washington, cleaning the barn is apparently synonymous with shoveling manure on the american people. i think this metaphor has gone far enough. the question now is whether conservatives in congress will support this deal or sabotage boehner's final act as speaker. i'm joined by the "hardball" round table, michelle bernard, jonathan capehart, and liz mair. how does it look?

will this thing hold together when they vote tomorrow? >> here's the thing. until they vote, you'll never know. we have seen time and time again, speaker boehner come up with grand plans, or put bills on the floor to have to pull them back for a lack of support. so as much as i would like to be hopeful about this budget deal and hope that it's going to go through until they start voting, i'm unwilling to say if this thing will actually pass. >> liz mair, i'm surprised that we're talking about a deal that looks like it's going to be sold and delivered and packaged in the end by democrats. there's no guarantee the republican -- a vast majority of republican members, who are the 247 members of the 435 in the house are going to go along with this. it's going to depend on pelosi to hold it together. >> that may possibly be true. and when off package that you put together that hikes spending by $80 billion, that is one of the reasons why some democrats may get more comfortable with it

than some republicans. at the end of the day, there are some republicans who like ryan will be going away and taking a very close look at this. because if you look at the comment that came from senator rob portman today, his point is that it's not a great deal and looks like it doesn't deal with some of the fundamental issues we're talking about when we're talking about continued deficit spending and a continued high national debt. i think the only way you get around that, there are going to be some people who do want a debt ceiling raised without having ra big fight about it, and i think there are some potentially significant reforms to social security, medicare, and i would say from my perspective, most importantly, the crop insurance program. so i think if you have fiscal conservatives go away and look at those things and decide they are meritorious, that may be the thing that drags it over the line. but fundamentally, there are a lot of fiscal conservatives who think, this does spend $80 billion more. this isn't really fiscally conservative. it's not really what we were sent here to do. >> you know, michelle, it's the same old thing to me, in a new twist.

to get republicans to back more spending, throw in a lot of defense spending. their hawkish impulses are aroused. and they say they don't like government spending, except on defense, on the pentagon. so, isn't this the same old smarmy deal. more spending for the right wing, more spending for the left wing, covered up by some gimmick that you say raises revenues through so-called reform gadgetry, and in the end, down the road, it never actually happens. you're shaking your head, liz, because you've been there too. is this something good or just the same old deal? your thoughts, michelle? >> i think, obviously, that is clearly one way of looking at it. when you talk to others and i talk to people who are working late at night on the hill, on this last night, and the way that they're looking at it is really, as a win-win, for both democrats and for both republicans, obviously, people who are big into defense, who are talked to the fact there's going to be increased spending for defense but increased spending for programs that democrats care about on the domestic front, and another way

to look at this, quite frankly is it shows that although they probably will not get a large majority of the republicans to vote for this, bipartisanship can happen on the hill. this is -- this democrats to the american public that if they really want to do something, they can put their heads to do it and get it done and get it done in a bipartisan fashion. >> warning to democratic members of congress. if the word social security shows up anywhere in this deal, beware. beware of voting on anything that changes the social security benefit system. anyway, the roundtable is sticking with me. up next, if it's tuesday, it's time for the clown car, driven first tonight by mr. donald trump. not surprisingly. and you're watching "hardball," the place for politics.

we're back with the roundtable. michelle, jonathan, and liz. it's clown car tuesday, and leading off tonight is donald trump. while speaking about the few tilt of exporting western values to the middle east yesterday, mr. trump said it's easier for islamic women to wear a veil, a burka, because it means they don't have to out on makeup. here's the expert, mr. trump. >> then i saw women interviewed. they say, we want to wear them. we've worn them for a thousand years. why would anybody tell us not

to -- they want to! what the hell are we getting involved for? the fact is, it's easier. you don't have to put on makeup. look how beautiful everyone looks. wouldn't it be easier? wouldn't that be easy? i'll tell you, if i was a woman, i wouldn't want -- i'm ready, darling, let's go. >> michelle, you start with this baby. first of all, i'll give him one bit of credibility. only in this regard. i think this is just one of his anecdotal ways, perhaps bizarre ways of arguing, stay out of the middle east. i'm not one of these republican neocon hawks who can't wait to overthrow another baathist government, if there's any left. my basic deal is let them be them. your thoughts? >> you know, i think -- you know, i wouldn't give him that much credit. i would say that he deserves a little bit of credit for seemingly trying to make the argument that, you know, maybe these women are religious or for whatever reasons, it is not our job as americans to put our religious values on others.

and if women feel comfortable wearing a burka, if they feel comfortable wearing a hijab, we should stay out of it and allow them to do it. we shouldn't be going in and saying, we know what's best for you. on the other hand, i really wish that donald trump would actually go to the middle east and speak to women who are on the forefront for fighting for women's human rights in these countries. and they will tell you that they wear the burka. but if you look under the burka, they are well dressed and they wear makeup. this is not something to wear makeup or not wear makeup. it is about how do we get an education, how to protect ourselves from being slain or stoned to death, because some would say, if we have done something that is against, you know, islam. that's a problem. >> we keep reminding ourselves of the life and death aspect here. >> exactly. and he made a joke of it and it's terrible. >> and you know what, chris, this is sort of in keeping, you know, donald trump and what he has said about women over the last six months or so.

he's been running for president. given what he's said about rosie o'donnell, megyn kelly, carly fiorina. he's sort of old school sexist in that woman is only as good as she looks. and so, i give, you know, michelle great credit for finding a higher meaning in what he's saying about the burka and women, but i just think it all goes back to, what does she look like, and that determines her value and her worth. >> he does rather seem to be running to become like secretary of women's faces or something like that. personally, when i heard it, i was like, oh, hey, there's donald trump giving voice to pretty much every straight male's concern in life, like, i want to go some place and i'll have to wait 30 minutes for her to get her act together and fix her hair and do her makeup. that probably appeals very strongly to his crowd from what it may sound like on the surface. next, ben carson, who last week said he'd use the department of education to crack down on political bias in schools across the country.

here we was on glenn beck. >> i actually have something i would use the department of education to do. >> would it be pack boxes for the state department? the irs? >> no, it would be to monitor our institutions of higher education for extreme political bias and deny federal funding if it exists. >> i like that. >> michele bachmann is back. carson was asked about the constitutionality of his proposal on "meet the press" on sunday and here's what he said then. >> how is what you're advocating not a violation of the first amendment? >> it's not because all i'm saying is taxpayer funding should not be used for propaganda. >> let's get this straight, jonathan, you're sitting at the university of michigan or one of our better schools, university of wisconsin, chapel hill, berkeley, all of them, you're up there and teaching political science, which always has a political angle, let's be honest. we've never have a political science teach who doesn't have a point of view.

and you see the kid down there tweeting around, because you're afraid you just said something that might be considered a point of view. >> right. >> what a world -- we talk about nazi references. this might actually be appropriate. this might be an appropriate example. >> and, yeah, there's that. like, who's going to determine what's propaganda and what's not? i mean, that's what the -- >> the department of education. >> right. >> with its billion members of bureaucrats. a billion bureaucrats. >> so chris, what you've got is a candidate in a party that hates big government and wants to slash big government, is talking about using big government to clamp down on free speech. so, yeah, it harkens to naziism. it made me think of slavery. you're going to make people slaves to something that the government may or may not want you to believe. >> you and ben carson with the slavery references. >> please don't -- >> he stumbled in there too. we all stumble.

finally, michael huckabee dipped further into the well of conspiracy theory, benghazi theories here on fox on friday, suggesting that hillary clinton could have averted the benghazi tragedy. listen to the words. >> it was just fascinating that sidney blumenthal had a lot more communication with hillary clinton as secretary of state than her ambassador to libya. and you have to wonder, if she had been as willing to cooperate and communicate with chris stevens as she was sidney bloomenthal, and had she been as honest with the american people as she was with her own daughter and the egyptian government, would four americans be alive today? >> you know what, guys? i am not the anti-semitic police, but i want to try this by all three of you. if this guy was joe mcgee or jimmy brown or any kind of regular guy, or seemed to be jewish, would we be hearing these names thrown around? the other day, i heard sal lenski thrown in with lennin and marks.

what is it about these names that the republicans, especially the hicks love to use and throw around. it's a tricky question, but i've heard it from too many friends of mine who are jewish who are sick of this. why sidney bloomenthal has become this name of evil? your thoughts, michelle? >> you know, i don't really want to say what i actually, actually believe, but, i mean, sidney bloomenthal, we keep hearing it over and over and over again. and when you think about the farthest, most right, most extreme people that make up the base of the republican party, they are anti-women, anti-black, anti-many things, including on some occasions, anti-jewish, and maybe that is why mike huckabee is saying what he's saying. he needs something to grab attention, to get people to talk about him, because evangelicals have spoken. right now their man is ben carson, not mike huckabee. >> the roundtable will stick with us. up next, all three will tell me something i don't know. this is "hardball," the place

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we're back. michelle, tell me something i don't know. >> chris, 2011, kelley williams-bolar. remember that name. she's an african-american woman from akron, ohio. she was investigated, arrested incarcerated in the state of ohio for, quote unquote, stealing a free public education. her crime, using her father's address a few miles away from where she lived in order to get her daughters into safe higher achieving public schools. ohio didn't like it. they locked her up and threw her in prison. john kasich comes to the rescue and pardons kelley bollar. it's happening in states all across the country.

we are seeing a great black/white racial divide with many whites saying stay in your bad neighborhoods and keep your kids out of our neighborhoods. many said kasich only pardoned her because he's sucking up to the african-americans. but what i am told from many african-americans in ohio is they like kasich and he pardoned her because he did the right thing. >> i like kasich. jonathan? >> chris on my way back from new york this morning, i was sitting in the acela lounge waiting to board the train. a man was on the phone talking how he was going to south carolina this weekend. and that his union was going to endorse hillary clinton. a couple hours ago, it was announced the international longshoreman's association is going to endorse hillary clinton this saturday in charleston, south carolina. >> they're all getting a board. anyway, liz? >> in north pp has done that polling showing that jim webb

pulls more from donald trump in a match-up against hillary clinton than vice versa. the interesting footnote there is that when they did a similar poll back in i believe it was august, these nuts were getting 9%. as independents. >> okay. thank you. >> critical information. >> some people don't merit the vote i guess. thank you, miller bernard, jonathan capehart and liz. we'll be right back after this. amerivest selects the funds and manages your portfolio.

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tomorrow i'll be in boulder, colorado for the republican presidential debate. join me for "hardball" at 7:00 eastern. after the debate, we'll have two hours of reaction and hard analysis. "all in" with chris hayes starts right now. tonight on "all in" -- >> there will be a federal investigation of the officer caught on tape flipping a south carolina high school student. tonight and nia kenny, the student who was arrested after standing up for her classmate joins me in an all-in exclusive. then. >> we have a breaking story. >> donald trump dethroned as ben carson drops two more policy stunners. >> redistribution of wealth. >> and the field gets fed up. >> i've about had it with these people. >> plus, hillary clinton picks up an endorsement from a progressive hero and the politics of crime. >> there's lawlessness in this country. the president encourages this lawlessness.