every one of these candidates say obama's weak, you know, putin's kicking sand in his face. when i talk to putin, he's going to straighten out. just looking at him, he's going be -- and then it turns out they can't handle a bunch of cnbc moderators. at a debate. ♪ good morning, everyone. it's november 3rd. welcome to a special edition of

"morning joe." we're live in wichita from wichita state, kansas. >> today is the first tuesday after the first monday in november. that means one thing. >> right. >> election day. and today all across america including in my hometown voters are going to be going out and electing new mayors and some states are even going to be choosing new legislators. kentucky and mississippi are actually going to be picking a new governor today, tlanld are going to be some vote initiatives on the ballot as well. election day, a big day. >> but the main event, of course, is the 2016 presidential election which is now just one year out and today msnbc is kicking off its special super tuesday series with on the ground reporting from key states leading up to next year's election. we're always three months from the first votes being cast and the race for the next president,

the iowa caucuses. >> so this morning we're a stone's throw away from that first state a stones throw from iowa. we're at wichita. wichita is known as the so-called air capital of the world. it's known as home for the influential charles koch and koch industries. >> yesterday we had an opportunity to sit down with charles koch in a wide-ranging interview. we discussed hiss best-selling book, good prosk and unique background and interesting story on politics, plus david joined him for their first ever joint interview. >> that was fascinating. >> we got a sense to know them on a personal level and ask the questions a lot of people are asking.

we'll get to that. look at who we have this morning. >> look who's not asking any questions. >> msnbc's mike barnical had a little problem. >> that's a shame. you're on a college campus. >> sam stein is here. msnbc correspondent michael steele joins us. and back in new york we have willie giest and jon meacham. iss new book on george w. bush out next week. look forward to that. >> the debates have been generating so much buzz. we've been saying all along, let's wait and see if any of these debate performances translate into success at the

polls. i've about got to say, we've got a new national poll out. we've got a series of state polls out, and it still looks like the republican party with 90 days until the iowa caucuses are still outing out the party of carson and trum snoop there were so many predictions there would be a breakout store. we begin with ben carson surging past donald trump with the highest number yet of the nbc wall stre"wall street journal" . carson leads trump. donald trump is more than double the third place finisher marco rubio. ted cruz is in fourth and jeb bush's support is unchanged at 8%. none of the other candidates are above the single digits. they're all tied at 3%.

when first and second choices are combined, carson stands at 50%, 15 points ahead of trump. but when asked who has the best chance in the general election, donald trump is the leader. 31%. this is the weekly tracking poll. it shows trump leading carson by 10 points. >> so let's stop and look at that poll. we saw the nbc poll. look at this poll. put it back up, if you will. this is a poll right after the debate. and we've been sitting here talking about who's going to move this way, who's going to move that way wlchlt you're looking at this poll taken completely after the debate where donald trump is at 31% from 21% are the nbc poll. michael steele, the republican party -- >> yeah. >> our republican party.

>> -- yeah. >> is still a wholly owned subsidiary. what's going on? >> 100 days, 100 days 1rks 00 d days. i wonder how long they've been over the threshold. at least a month or two. these other candidates, they're along for the ride. >> they still don't have traction because they're not speaking to the core base. the interesting thing about the trump number, when you peel it back, the question about economy is what's keeping him in place. that has him 30 points ahead of everybody else in the field. and as long as a lot of republicans feel that he's going to be the best one for the economy, it's going to keep him there. that kept him there in that debate. >> mike, you've been talking about it for years, the rich getting rich, the poor getting

poor, the middle class falling further behind. james carville, it's the economy. in these primary polls trump is always ahead. when asked who can best handle the economy, despite character and everything else, is that what's driving this? >> i think that's part of what's driving this. if you look at the polls, 52% of the republican electorate polls are with trump or carson. the rest of the numbers are tremendously fluid. could go either way at any moment. i agree with michael steele. trump hangs in his 23% in that poll doesn't move. i think carson's will move. >> i agree. >> trump's 23% won't move largely because i think of two things. j-o-b, jobs. i'll put you back to work.

whether you believe it or not. it takes hold. and self-funded. >> that's a powerful message. >> powerful. >> let's see how this translates because national polls are beauty pageants. let's talk about it the early stage. >> a new hampshire poll taken after last week's debate shows marco rubio has tripled hi support. in the monmouth university poll trump leads him but rubio is rising up from just four points last month to 13%. then comes ohio governor john kasich ahead of ted cruz. and jeb bush stuck in sixth despite the fact that his super pac has spent $4.8 million recently in that state. bush's has moved slightly.

he remains far behind. most of the field, especially his chief rival for establishment support, rubio. ben carson's favorability has declined from a net positive of 63% last month to 45 points now while donald trump has dropped from a positive 18 points to just 6. >> let's start with new hampshi hampshire, sam stein. it seems like a lot of movement ujds neath. in the last debate carly fiorina jump up. now kasich. rubio. again, one and two -- for carson to be number 2 in new hampshire, that's amazing. >> that's crazy. carson doesn't translate as well as iowa. i have one thing. i think immigration plays a big role here. it animates the base the way other issues don't. people are very skeptical of

marco rubio for that one reason and trump really attacked that issue early on. i look at these things. i still think the polls are fluid. like at the favorability numbers. compared to carson and compared to rubio, it's insane. if you look at the nbc/"wall street journal" poll, he's at the bottom of the heap. that's incredible. >> he's still fifth or sixth. donald trump is a positive. but he's still up by 13 points. so likability seasons translating -- >> he'll present so much money to. be stuck at that situation with your popularity really says that he doesn't have much movement. >> i'll tell you, when you have somebody that's as low key as jeb is and that hasn't gone out of his way to offend people and

you have favorability numbers upside down like that, you're dealing with legacy there. you're dealing with your father and your brother being presid t president, and willie geist. it's hard to believe he's done anything on the campaign trail. >> he had a good speech yesterday, but you start looking at this race now. as you said at the top of the show, mika, three months until we vote in iowa. when does the change happen? how does the change happen? you have two guys at the top that are up 20 points more than everybody else and the argument has been on establishment candidates will sit and wait for carson and trum top implode and then move up. well, we're this far along now in november. if they're going to implode, i'm not sure how it's going to happen at this point. if the others are going to rise 20 points in three months, i'm

not sure how it's going happen at this point. maybe it will but it seems that old argument has gone out the window. they'd better find a way in a hurry to catch up to cruz and trump. >> the thing is with trump and carson, it seems one thing we're finding with trump, time and time again, and alks said this a couple of weeks ago. he's fallen a couple of times, but he's always gotten back up. a lot was made of the iowa poll and then last week we have a new iowa poll taken after the last debate. it show as different story. >> let's go to the poll. the public policy polling shows trump just barely in the lead. 22% to carson's 21%. cruz at 14%, rubio at 10% and jindal. jeb bush is way back in a tie for seventh with carly fiorina at 5%. this as a devastating new poll

shows bush falling to fifth place in his home state of florida. donald trump is way ahead at 27% in florida. rubio is second. >> i mean let's stop there and keep that poll up and everybody just soak that in. donald trump is ahead of the sitting u.s. senator in the state of florida, in his home state, by 11 points. >> home governor. >> and former governor jeb bush -- i mean it's unbelievable by 15 points. michael steele, i'm sorry, that basically -- that's the state of this race right now. >> yeah. >> and in his own home state marco rubio, who was supposed to be the save savior of the republican party is getting trounced. jeb bush getting trounced by donald trump in their own state.

>> i think as florida goes, so goes the rest of the country at this point. there's a lot of threat for someone like trump to weave into other states and when ewe look at coming out of the early primary states where trump is doing very, very well, i think to the earlier point, how do you stop the momentum? who in this group, whether it's christie, jindal, anyone else, who stops the momentum that trump has. if he's polling like this in florida, if he's polling in iowa, where's the weak spot? there isn't any. again, going back to the economic issues and he's like me, there's no one touching him. >> you've got gop elites, washington elites. you' you've got all these people clinging to the hope that something's going to happen top donald trump and ben carson. >> they just simply must.

>> they've been saying it since early august. mike barnical, i saw "it's a great pumpkin, charlie brown." the great pumpkin never rises from the pumpkin patch. i'm wondering how do carson and trump get knocked off of their thrones? we've been talking about it for a hundred days now. >> i know. i have no understanding of it but i have no comprehension of why he has stayed up so strong, so long. i do think many of his supporters are like people sitting in a bus stop waiting for the right candidate to come by. >> we're actually hearing that you look at polls, and, sam stein, you have trump's people saying, they're not going

anywhere. carson's people saying they can go elsewhere. >> the theory i'm hearing is these are three passes when you answer the poll at this juncture. when you go in the voting booth, you have to make a different daermg. it could be their votes are a little softer. it's getting close. >> what's the indicator it will get soft. usually you have an understanding where the trend lines are going. >> there's a little bit of a trend line with rubio kind of rising. >> isn't the larger story, though, that florida poll, jeb bush? >> thank you. >> that's why i think jeb's great story here. >> covering politics. once you get into the poor guy syndrome -- >> jeb bush is down by 15, but marco rubio, jesus christ superstar according to the media

is down. >> someone knows about the bush family, jon meacham, let's go to him. >> jon meacham, it seems that the could hangs heavy on jeb bush. that last name once a blessing knew without a doubt a curse in 2016. >> the irony here is these are republican primary where george w. bush is actually pretty popular, so if this is where he is in the republican primary, then the general election becomes even more complicated. one thing i wonder and i'd love to hear you on this, congressman, is this really an existential crisis for the republican party. if the numbers stay this way, does the parties have to reconfigu reconfigu

reconfigure itself in that way. i was wondering, for you, what do you think a trump or a carson win in iowa or new hampshire does to the party itself? >> trump and carson together blow up the republican party as it has been for the last half century, don't you think so? >> yeah. whatever's happened to jeb isn't having to do with his low energy because ben carson is as low energy as it gets. >> again, there is one sort of elegant theory here that explains ought of this. it's immigration. jeb is associated with immigration, rubio is associated with immigration. trump is against immigration. >> that doesn't complain c expl. >> he's flip-flopping. >> you can't hear him. ahead, live from wichita

state university, our exclusive interview with david and charles koch, plus we'll talk with the university's president and the head coach of the school's powerhouse basketball program. and also peggy noonan joins us with her brand-new book. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. (patrick 1) what's it like to be the boss of you? (patrick 2) pretty great. (patrick 1) how about a 10% raise? (patrick 2) how about 20? (patrick 1) how about done? (patrick 2) that's the kind of control i like... ...and that's what they give me at national car rental. i can choose any car in the aisle i want- without having to ask anyone. who better to be the boss of you...

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mika, you know, there's nothing i find to be more invigorating other than waking up at 2:30 in the morning -- >> -- and screaming at us. >> yeah, thank you so much. >> you guys are loud. i like it.

oh, my lord. okay. well, there's some energy here. >> as i was saying, nothing more invigorating. >> i love it. >> i'm sure this is why they're excited. >> please, don't stop. >> than a political revolt. i've got to tell you, it was like those republican candidates were charging up bunker hill. >> i know, right? >> and then they got shot when the whites of their eyes were seen. >> it's amazing. >> it's going to change politics. we were just saying it yesterday. for ever. >> i think there's definitely a whole new conversation. >> they backed off. >> they backed off. just when it appeared they were united against debate moderators. >> senator cruz said the only moderators who voted in a republican primary agreed with that. do you agree with that or disagree? >> i don't think it's a bad

idea. i had a representative there. i don't care that much. i'd go a step further. i'm an economics person. the networks are making a fortune with our debates. the truth is we should be like a basketball player. we want money for wound warriors or great charity, the veterans. i'd love to give -- more important than moderators f they're going to have big audiences, let the money go to charity. >> yep, again donald trump called for debate profits to go to charity. meanwhile multiple campaigns rejected a letter of demands for networks for future debates marking the end of their short-lived attempt to change the format as a group. i don't know. i still think there's a bigger conversation here. >> much ado about nothing at the end of the day, mike barnicle. >> yeah. stop talking about the moderators. just have the debates, be asked

specific questions about what ryu r you going to do about the economy and -- >> just fair, right? >> you know, boom, boom, boom. >> maybe if they start asking those questions, won't have debates so much. >> be specific though. >> willie geist, it was supposed to be a massive revolt. the massive revolt ended and it ended very quickly and now you have donald trump not surprisingly going off of hin own and he's going to negotiate with the networks by hymn. >> and when you bring in 25 million viewers with the first debate, you've got the leverage to do that. and also chris christie said the debate rules don't bother me. that coalition against the debates kind of fell apart. that doesn't mean i don't think it's a good idea. to get a different point of view asking questions of the

candidates. >> we had, of course -- we just showed the new hampshire poll. if we could put that up again. sam stein, you had a very agitated john kasich the other night. he did not like the key bait process. didn't like where his republican parties going. he was practically screaming every answer he was so frustrated and you look at this new hampshire poll that came out afterward. he's still holding steady at 11%. sometimes you can use an agitated performance in the debate to actually do well. >> well, we saw this in the last cycle, too, where we talked to anderson cooper and we used it to their political vachlkt you know, i think, to be honest, all these candidates are wanting a little too much. the questions were adversarial. that's the problem. they were a little adversarial. i don't think they were biased in any sense of the word. if they want a new process, they

can hold a new process, but this is just question and answer. >> i'll tell you what. >> no, no, no, no. >> what are you doing? >> by the way -- >> we've been there, baby, trust me. >> i will tell you what, i swear to god. if a candidate had asked me the first question that megyn kelly asked donald trump or a moderator asked me the first question john harwood asked in the way he did, i would have said, let me tell you something. i'm going to give you a second chance to ask a leading question and if it's another editorial question to show your friends at home look how tough i am, i'm walking off the stage. >> as another person who's run and debatd, we can call them whiners if they want, but you know what? we just want it to be fair. >> fair. >> what is fair about megyn kelly going on her tirade --

>> 30 minutes. >> -- and john harwood on the other side with her tirade. what would you do if somebody asked you that in a live debate. >> exactly. you get them to ask the question or walk off the stage. but you have to understand where these candidates are coming from. i think about it. you want to marco rubio's personal finances but you couldn't ask hillary clinton and her relationship to her husband's foundation. but understand where the candidates are coming from. that's the peak that they have. >> i do. >> they look at the process. they look at the process. >> it's not hard to answer some of these questions. i mean, come on. >> he cherry picks the questions and has leading questions that sets them up to make them look stupid. if you refer to my campaign as a clown act or some caricature of a campaign, that's not a question. >> but, sam, sam, i don't want to -- trust me. i do not want to repeat the

debite bate we had yesterday about media bias. the only thing the republicans are asking for is the same sort of treatment as democrats get and i will say this about marco rubio. he did not tells he truth eve with that being said forecast you're going to ask marco rubio about a house in tallahassee, florida, but you don't ask why bill clinton is getting $550,000 in speeches that hases by before hillary clinton and has funneled millions and millions in foundations, there's nothing objective about it. >> that's a legitimate criticism. >> thank you very much, but we have to go to break now. >> that doesn't mean they can't ask marco rubio. >> no, no, no, they should. >> he hasn't said that. >> wait. >> asking questions about clinton.

you get to my debate and drill down on me, that's when i get upset. >> how do you have a debate with hillary clinton on stage for that long with the tens of millions of dollars sloshing around while she's secretary of state, not ask a single question about that but you're obsessing other marco rubio's ranch house in tallahassee, florida, that i think got foreclosed on and credit card debt. are we kidding ourselves? >> i can't believe this. i understand why you guys are excitable about this. i do. >> we're not excitable. we're deep in thought. >> you need to be more self-aware, you really do. >> they're running for president. >> no, no. >> ask anything. >> guess what, mike? so we're democrats. we ask the tough questions. >> i absolutely agree. >> there's a way to turn it. >> you know what? i just want to -- >> it's happening right knew. >> let me just bring peace.

i need to be the soft-spoken one. >> can i ask this, why are there so many college kids up this early in the morning? [ cheering ] coming up on "morning joe," our exclusive sit-down with charles koch in a wide-ranging interview. we find out his interesting business philosophy, and we get his 2016 take on the running roll of politics. stay with us. ♪ i found a better deal on prescriptions. we found lower co-pays... ...and a free wellness visit. new plan...same doctor. i'm happy. it's medicare open enrollment. have you compared plans yet? it's easy at medicare.gov. or you can call 1-800-medicare. medicare open enrollment. you'll never know unless you go. i did it. you can too.

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it is 35 past the hour, and this morning we're bringing you part 1 of our exclusive interview with charles koch. the businessman is out with the best-selling book "good profit," which we get into in the next hour. but first politics and the 2016 field. >> how discourage ready you with the current state of the republican party with what you see on tv every day, from what you see in the presidential contests, from what you see in the debates where so many of these issues that matter the

most to you, and i'll be honest, that matter the most to me, are not talked about? >> well, i've been discouraged for a long time. you know, i've been involved in these ideas for over 50 years and for 40 of them i wasn't involved in politics because i was so disgusted with politics and both parties. i thought maybe george bush would talk about it. bush 43. in his campaign he touched on some of these. well, maybe there's hope. by 2003, three years later, he was going the opposite way. he was one of the bingest spenders of all time, created more destructive regulations along with the fed, pumping all this money into housing, created this artificial boom, and then

bush pushing it and fannie and freddie bringing the whole system down and getting into these economy wars that made no sense to me at the time. so we said, with giev tot oppose this. >> right. so when bush came in, we had a $155 billion surplus. when he left, we had a deficit that was up to 5$500 billion. the national debt doubled. it's doubled again under barack obama. the question is -- i know that you have worked hard with your brother to elect republicans. are you does couraged and about to get out of politics again or are you out there -- >> no. i don't care what party. i just want somebody who's going to advance these ideas to take

us away from this two-tiered system, getting involved in all sorts of unproductive things and all this waste and like our total funded debt and unfunded liabilities are probably over $100 trillion now and going up to the sky, so we're headed for disaster. >> do you see a candidate out there? >> not in great measure. >> not in great measure? you sound like my dad. >> that's very diplomatic. >> that's very good. >> i worked hard on that. >> let's do some word association. so i take it it's not donald trump. >> i'm not -- listen. i made a vow. i'm not going to publicly comment on any candidate. david said some nice words about walker and that was written up that we were given millions to his campaign.

do you know how much we've given to his campaign? >> i hope none. >> zero. zero. >> good profit right there. >> i like scott an awful lot. >> yeah. >> but things don't turn out. >> and then another example, ted cruz, we haven't given any money to him, but another -- some other people who support some of our things gave money. gave $15 million to him. that was attributed to us. the we had nothing to do with it. >> are you a registered republican? >> yeah. >> have you ever voted for a democrat? >> yeah, i've voted for a democrat. >> that huh. th that's interesting. >> david's in new york. >> i saw a report that over 150 families have contributed overwhelmingly to the candidates in the race right now, overwhelming amount of money. that's not a way to run a democracy, is it, like 150 families are basically fujding

most presidential campaigns? >> see, to me it depends on -- to what end. if it's to get policies that will create -- open up opportunities for people and get rid of all this corporatism and welfare where, what, several are around washington, d.c., and have two-year presidential campaigns where that's all anyone focused on, why is that? that isn't random. it's because the government is picking winners and losers. and you want to be a winner more than you do a loser, so you give to slant it your way. the money that we raise, which we hope to raise $250 million for all elections, not just presidential next year, whether we can or not because i'm going to give very lit toll that because most of mine goes to my

foundation and other things to advance these ideas. so what we're working for is to get -- pick winners and losers out of it. and then we won't have two-year presidential campaigns because people will realize it's more important to run their own lives rather than control part of government. >> what would you say to your critics. like any crony capitalist, you give money. you say, i give people money and they'll do what i want them to do. >> i expect something in return. i would love to have the government stop this corporate welfare. that's what i want. i want the government to let companies -- or require that companies only profit by helping make other people's lives better. that's what i want and that's what i'm working for.

>> so it's well and good that you want to stop corporate welfare. i certainly wouldn't argue that. but aren't you still getting caught up in the same cycle of buying influence? >> no. well, so far we're failures at it as you can tell. >> but you understand -- >> but, see, the perspective is all wrong because we're trying to raise $250 million to fight all this stuff. there's hundreds of billions being spent to advance it because you look at all the money going out in these districts that then come back to the congresspeople, get them votes, and build more power, and the whole system is wanting to re-elect incumbents. and so somebody's got to fight it. do you see a lot of other large companies fighting this? we're about it. if we didn't do it, who would be

trying to stop this racket? this is a huge racket, this wrecking the country. >> i can tell you as a guy that was lobbied all the time, i didn't have people come to my office and say, please, don't do anything for me, which is effective will i what you guys are doing. >> yeah. >> i want to ask you something personally because mika and i talked about this when we had spent a little time with liz and you before -- about how surprised you seemed a few years back at the level of vitriol leveled against you and your family and even harry reid causing you un-american, something people called you on the show time and time again again. >> it's too bad they're trying to buy america and it's time people spoke out about these terrible brothers. >> what kind of personal impact did that have on you and your

family and were you shooked by the level of vitriol? >> well, i -- to get in this business, you've got to realize that harry truman is right. if you can't stand the heat, don't go in the kitchen. so i recognize that. i mean people aren't going to scare me off. i mean i've been doing this for 50 years, politics. what is that -- i've been involved in this for 12 years. but i'm kind of like martin luther when he was on trial and he said, here i stand, i can do no other. i mean i dedicate to this. these ideas, the ideas we've been talking about transformed my life, and so it's my mission -- i feel a moral obligation to help other people learn these and transform their lives. but it's frightening for the future of the country to have

these public officials try to hurt and destroy private citizens who oppose what they're doing rather than have a conversation and maybe find as we've done with the white house, find areas where we can work together on things with ke a agree to make the country better instead of this vitriol and these dishonest attacks. >> how did you feel the night all the election results came in after harry reid and the democrats had run against you and your brother all year and it ended up that you guys won most of the races that you got involved in? >> well, we looked like we won. as you can see the performance, we didn't win much of anything. >> do you feeling that way? >> yeah. well, i feel this. that any time there's attacks

and lack of sieve illty and lack of tolerance is not working, that's a step forward for a free and progressive society. >> are you at all concerned about investing and asking others to invest in this election process given the very bad results you've seen with your investments in the past? >> right. yes, i am. i think -- and i'm going to push with our group and the organizations we support to do two things. to be more careful on what candidates we pac. not that we -- listen. if we only backed organizations and candidates, not just political but any, that agreed 100% with me, there would probably be zero other than the charles koch foundation and institute. those are two really good one, so we need to be aware of that.

so that's number one. to do more work on the issues because the ideas i think that have transformed people's lives that people need to internalize it and work, but we need policies that allow them to do that rather than what we have now, this corporate welfare and these regulation that make it impossible for people who have nothing to get ahead. >> you know, mika, one of the things we wanted to do when we met charles and liz koch, started talking to them and david is actually get an interview to show that they're not the one-dimensional cartoon characters. anybody that watched that saw a guy that spent the majority of his time and focusing most of his fire on the republican establishment in washington, d.c., that's brought and paid for by crony capitalists, that raised the debt. i mean i could go down the list of things.

and the people that should be especially nervous this morning are the candidates he supported in 2014 because he even regrets that because now they're part of the process and being part of this corporate welfare that he loathes so much. >> and we also proceeded more on the influence they have with money and politics and asked if the same word crony capital oohiooists applied to him and it's so interesting to have him answer to that. he ee like, it hasn't worked, so i don't know what you're talk about. i think it's unfair that about 150 families control most of it. >> i think the difference between them and others who give out money, they dmot want them to give out corporate welfare. you started ticking out a list. they would. let hem on the debate stage because he's, again, not a

one-dimensional character. >> the great history of them is they have all of these issues that they're pros on, pro gay marriage. >> there are certain ideas. >> they're complex characters. >> and, by the way, in kansas they loathe formsubsidies. you hear it time and time again. >> it boils down to economics. for the kochs and other parties, just like trump, you have people that connect him. he's a billionaire, he's like me. >> in our next hour we talk more about the messages in charles' book "good profit" and

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coming up at the top of the hour from wichita state, we've got lots ahead. "washington post" robert costa with new reporting on the fallout surrounding republican debates. >> and, mika, some new polls that are pretty shocking. and back here in wichita, our exclusive joint interview with charles and david koch. we'll be right back.

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welcome back to "morning joe." it's tuesday, november 3rd. we're live as you can see from wichita state university, wichita, kansas. today, election day, 2015. we're starting the iowa caucuses. we'll be deciding the next president of the united states. still with us we have msnbc contributor mike barnicle.

the host stan stein who surprised us. former rnc chairman michael steele. historian jon meacham and willie geist with us from new york and joining us from managing editor of bloomberg mark halperin. what a big group. new polls showing ben carson surging against donald trump at 29%. carson leads trump by six points. trump's 23% is more than double the third place finisher marco rubio. ted cruz is in fourth and jeb bush's support is unchanged at 8%. none of the other ten candidates is above the low single digits. they're all tied at 3%. but when asked to as what the best chance in the general election, donald trump is still

the leader. 32% to carson's 25%. this as the new weekly tracking poll from the morning consult shows trump leading carson by ten points. >> that's a massive lead in this poll, a lot different than the nbc poll. but, mika, a lot of these are beauty contests. you've about got to look at the individual states and you go there, and a new group of individual states show that donald trump still resilient. >> let's look at new hampshire of republicans. this poll taken after last week's debate. it shows donald trump has support. in the monmouth university poll trump leads carson but rubio rising fast, up four points last month to 13%. then comes ohio governor john kasich ahead of ted cruz. meanwhile jeb bush stuck in

sixth space. >> everybody read a lot of stories about it. a new poll suggesting it's too close. >> a little bit of a flip. a third of republicans from public policy polling shows trump just barely in the lead. 22 to carson's 21%. cruz in third at 14%. rubio in fourth with jindal rising slightly into a tie for fifth. and jeb bush is way back in a tie for seventh with carly fiorina in seventh. jeb bush in his home state of florida? donald trump way ahead in florida at 27%. rubio in second at 16%. carson, third, at 15 points and cruz edges out bush by 0.3 of a point at 12%. >> you know, willie geist, let's look at that poll for a second and take it in.

they show donald trump in first place in every one of the polls expect for the nbc news poll. you look at the florida poll in particular. and here you have marco rubio, the sitting senator losing by 11 points to donald trump. and jeb bush, an icon in that state of republican politics for years getting beaten by 15 points. he's lapping the field, especially these two florida stalwarts. >> of all the polls that should be red flags for jeb bush, that might be the biggest red flag right there. the governor, as you said, joe, the popular governor of his state, losing by donald trump in place where he feels like he should win. mark halperin, that was a lot of numbers to digest. if you go through the national polls and look at it, who should be most pleased with their position on election day, 2015, and who should be most concerned? >> well, i'll tell you what i think the washington conventional wisdom is.

carson will somehow eventually fade away. bush, christy fiorina, kasich are all dead and rubio will rise and become the challenger to trump with cruz in the mix. i think that's the conventional wisdom. i think it's largely wrong in the sense that i don't think bush is dead, don't think christie's dead. i don't think kasich is necessarily dead. and i still don't think looking at these polls rubio still has a lot to prove. he's in a strong position. arguably the strongest position, but he's got a lot to prove. >> isn't that conventional wisdom, though, wishful thinking? how has that happened? we've heard they're going to deflate for three months now. how and when is that going to happen? >> there's some questions as to whether their operations can turn that popular vote into votes. everybody i talked to says trump is building something, i think

right now, you know, if rubio is the hope of the establishment, he's going to have prove even in florida, his home state, he has to have a plan to overtame trump. the passage of time is no longer the frejd of the establishment candidate. the clock's ticking. >> joe? >> i was just wondering, bob costas, the thing that keeps get reported to us is while they're building an impressive grounds operations, in iowa the hope of the republican establishment, marco rubio is not building anything out there at all. what do you find on the ground? >> what i find on the ground is rubio's operation is strongest in south carolina and the thought of many rubio associates is iowa, new hampshire, could be pretty messy. but if rubio can come in strong against a conservative favorite, he'll be a good position. >> so is rubio conceding iowa? >> no, i don't think rubio is

conceding iowa, but at this point if you're marco rubio or jeb bush or any other person on the center rice, carson looks like a strong host and cruz is right there with those two. finding a packet in iowa with, as you say, only a few months left, it's difficult. >> how is -- you know if he tries to save it. you know those 30-second halves on illegal immigration and how it's going gorks how does he survive that, bob? >> it's going to be a challenge for senator rubio. i've spoken with trump's campaign, and they still believe senator rubio is very vulnerable in their eyes on immigration. they think that base -- once they're alerted to rubio's past will work on comprehensive reform. they will perhaps move away from rubio. so, trump, he's not spent money on television yet, but they're looking into firms and if they

have to go negative, it would be rubio on immigration. that's different than bush who's attacking on his voting record. >> yesterday marco rubio picked up major swing state endorsement from cory gardner. and during an interview, with all due respect, trump teed off from the senator from florida. >> i think he's highly overrated. i think he's an overrated person. i don't think he's going to make it. i notice thad the press -- in fact, i was watching this morning one of the shows and they were talking about marco rubio. he's nowhere in the polls. he's -- i don't think -- personally i don't think -- >> he's been critical on immigration. are there other issues? >> he's very critical. he was a member of the game of eight, which basically wanted to have everyone come in and take over our country. all of a sudden he went down in the polls and he immediately changed and got out. he's totally driven by whoo the

public think. marco doesn't show up to votes, he double do things he's supposed to do. he got elected senator. the same thing happened to him in the florida senate if you look. i know a lot about florida. i'm there. you awe saw the poll that came out where i'm beating bush and carson by a lot. a lot in florida. i know florida better than they know florida. >> you know who has a chance because of guys like you -- and i'm not specifically referring to you -- you a little bit, to be honest. you, a little bit, but i watched somebody's on joe's show, he's fawning off him. he says how good looking, how handsome. i don't know. i think i'm better looking and more handsome than him. he's so handsome. he's so wonderful. joe goes, look at him. he's way down here. he's probably a nice person. the other thing i don't like about him, he should have been more loyal to bush. i didn't know him at all. i was told that he would never

run because bush was his mentor, bush really helped him. he was very, very disloyal to bush. i don't like that. >> okay. >> wow. >> mike barnicle -- >> where do we begin. >> mike? >> let me ask jon meacham. jon, you've just seen a man suck all oxygen out of the entire room talking about marco rubio, ben carson. let's talk about the man who in four to five weeks is man who isn't here. you've just written an e epic book about george h.w. bush. his son, jeb bush, is in the process of disappearing in the presidential canvas. what do you think about the troubles of the jub bush campaign? >> i think it's safe to say

they're worried, they're concerned about it. you know, there is a mental button that gets hit in the bush psyche when populist billionaires come on the scene. george h.w. bush continues to believe that ross perot cost him re-election in 1992. the trump fe nonma -- as mark twain once said history may not repeat itself, but it rhymes. they rhyme a lot. >> they had a fund-raiser, a get-together in georgetown. what's happening internally that's going to change the trajectory of jeb bush's campaign. >> look at 41, bush 41 in 1988 when he won. he had to fight the nomination. there were times he was completely out and he fought back and then he was late and late in the campaign fought back. w. bush 3 down hard.

he fought back. what's going on in the bush world -- i'm not saying this is true of the two prts -- but close intimates are saying can jeb do that. like james baker and bush in 41 and car rover and bush in 43, can you fight back. and there are real doubts in bush world based oven what they've seen so far. that jeb has the same capacity as his foreand brother were and is just as much counted out. >> you asked him that. he said he eats nails for breakfast? >> he eats nails before he eats breakfast. >> we th is bush being crowned without drama. neither bush became president without going negative, whether it was senator straddle in 1988 or the dukakis campaign or as mark says, south carolina. >> yeah. beating the king. they were tough and they were

counted out and both of them showed not just being better to do negative campaigning but to do it's affectively and true to themselves. bush 41 did think duca was was too liberal. bush 43 did not think john mccain was going to be able to do it. >> joe? >> you know, i remember way too much. i really do. >> he does have a good memory. >> i do. it's sort of a rainman thing. it's not all positive. but i remember in 1988 george h.w. bush while dukakis was up almost 20 points going to an italian-american ee develop and wearing the goofiest cap, being ridiculed time and time again. i remember him being mocked and ridiculed after coming in third in iowa. i remember hearing about the

wimp factor. i remember him being counted out. he went to new hampshire and knocked bob dole's political head off of his shoulder. i remember the same thing with george w. bush. i tweeted this last week. anybody that wants to know how low a bush can go, he counted out and come back, please. go and search the "washington post" the morning after john mccain trounced george w. bush by over 20 points. and i can tell you i was on the house floor the next morning and panic swept through the earn tire place. and they said george w. bush just doesn't have what it takes to be president. he's dumb. he can't complete a sentence. he looked like he was completely out of his mind the night before. everything, full-scale panic. he went to south carolina and he knocked john mccain's head off. listen, you can complain about how they did it, a lot of really

dirty campaigning in south carolina, but the question is can jeb bush get up off the mat like his father and his brother. and, again, you read -- halparin is right. they were at similar times counted out in this electoral process and they became presidents. >> they are, but both presidents, daddy and son had one thing in common, jim baker and the question for the bush team right now is who is their jim baker that's going to bring that kind of energy to the candidate to show him how to get up off the mat and to make that a real opportunity for him. i think -- i think the people around are just as important as the candidate himself. >> i heard somebody laughing. who's laughing, i certainly hope you weren't laughing at james baker because i will tell you what. james baker, i would take james baker in any fight with me. >> yeah. >> bob costa, does bush have his

team around him? does he feel he has the team around him and has he got the support to do what his father and brother did and come back? >> he's got an aggressive campaign manager in danny diaz and lock-time confidante sally at his side. mike murphy, the long-time strategist bush adviser who's running bush's super pac. and the question for bush's super pac is when will they go negative if ever against ruk owe and trump. they're sitting on the sidelines with a pot of money. it's about when and how they execute that in the coming months. >> all right. mark halparin and bob costa, thank you very much. still ahead on "morning joe" live from wichita, more of our extended conversation with charles cokoch, we'll look throh his best-selling book and why he's teaming up with some on

prison reform. first, peggy noon nan is standing by in new york with a revealing of her best writing collection. you're watching the "morning joe." we'll be right back. technology empowers us to achieve more. it pushes us to go further. special olympics has almost five million athletes in 170 countries. the microsoft cloud allows us to immediately be able to access information, wherever we are. information for an athlete's medical care, or information to track their personal best. with microsoft cloud, we save millions of man hours, and that's time that we can invest in our athletes and changing the world. is youyou may be muddling through allergies.lode? try zyrtec®-d to powerfully clear your blocked nose

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>> i love it. >> okay. very early in the morning. joining us now, columnist of "the wall street journal," peggy noonan, our friend, she's out with her ninth book, "the time of our living." it's great to have you on the show. >> it is great to have you on the show, peggy. we'll talk with you about your minute.

but george bush, the man you love and worked for, he came back in 1988 like nobody thought he would and you wrote some incredible words that he delivered very well at the 88th convention, but you're starting to have your doubts about jeb. what words would you write for jeb bush if you could at this moment in his critical moment in his campaign. >> not to put you on the spot or anything. >> yeah. i'm not sure that words is the answer to his problem. george h.w. in 1988 had some rocky moments. he had a few. he didn't have a problem with for six months making a bad impression or making a not so good impression, and i think that's more the problem with jeb this year, that he launched -- i

don't know, about four or five, six months ago, and in the launch behalf and the time afterward, he never really made a good impression. so there's a little less to work with. somebody made a very good question a moment ago saying, who exactly is going to help jeb at this point? who is the james baker? who will help study this ship. i'm not sure of the answer to that question. i guess those answers tent to come in retrospect. >> what do you think of your republican party in 2015, peggy? >> oh, god bless them. you know, there are moments when you take relish in saying, well, i'm a conservative and i observe the republican party. i think there has been a little chaos. this has been a surprising year. to my mind it's been the most surprising presidential cycle in my adulthood.

i didn't fore see a lot of stuff that was happening like the rise of trump, the ability to stay at the top of ben carson, the rise of the outsiders, the difficulties of the "insider"s. this has been a fabulous tale. i mean it's been some kind of year. snielt really has. hey, jon meacham, next question to you. >> you have written for ronald reagan, you've written for george h.w. bush. and i think one of the parts of magic that you've written is you've always ground things in the culture in which they grew up, right? reagan knew the poem that you wrote the challenger speech about. where is the common culture now? >> oh, that is a fabulous question. that's at the heart of things. the common culture right now is breaking into pieces in a big sort as we know. america is less the cohesive

co-hearing thing that it was, say, for the past 100 years and is now breaking into little pieces so that we now have little pieces of the culture. i write a lot about this in my book because i've seen as you have america change before my eyes. it's harder now for someone in politics to locate the common culture. i noticed a few weeks ago marco rubio was in a little campaign video and somebody said to him, too pack or b tupac or biggy. that's part of hitz culture. that's part of their culture. it's not really part of my culture. the world is breaking up into two pieces. well, actually my answer is tupac. i like tupac. >> peggy represents for the west coast. that's good to know. what about the year of politics. we've got 15rks 16, 17

candidates. they've all got a little piece that you laid out culturally and as you talk about this great tale unfolding, where do you see this evening? this has been a dangerous position? so many people have said trump is going to fade and ben carson will fade and trump won't last. how do you see this playing out in the next three months? >> i think we've entered -- part 1 of election 2016 was a surprise. wow, bernie sanders actually doing damage to mrs. clinton, mrs. clinton's hurt and she comes back. there's a lot going on. there's been a lot of surprises in act 1. i think act 2 is chaos. i think they'll all going to get together and get together exactly about what they want for rules of debates and getting down into strange issues like, we would like to control the signage that each cable network uses within the debates and we would like the room to be 67

degrees. okay. when you get to that point, it's like a david letterman contract. it's got to be 67 degrees. it's like a j.lo contract. when you get to the j.lo contract point, i think you're in trouble. >> do you see donald trump or ben carson getting to the end of the nomination process? >> i'm open to all surprise this year. i'm just not sure how it goechls i think the poll out today shows ben carson edging into number one, mr. trump edging into number two. we'll see where that goes. >> this vote -- >> did you see the vulgar thing i did? >> no. you've got to move merchandise. your book is called "the tomb of our lives," thoughts about where you've been, where we are, where we're going. how do you describe it? >> it's a collection of 30 years of writings that i went through. it turns out i kept everything they wrote. and i opened these boxes and i

took out things i i've written in the past 30 years and there were things that i loved and things that i thought at least captured a moment. there were things that i found mildly horrifying. i didn't put most of them in. but it's sort of the best of what i've got, and it's things that i've written and that i love and that i think are kind of pertinent to today. >> peggy noonan's greatest hits. we've got another great writer on the set, mike barnicle with you. >> peggy, you've come a long way from weia from boston with your editorials. thank you for waving to me as you pass me on the highway. in your book you talk about pieces you missed and the business you missed, the business of politics. it wasn't that long ago when you

were a journalist or reporter, you were allowed to like a politician you were covering because the politician might be interesting or colorful and now it seem sthas the journalism ethics people frown on reporters liking politicians. talk about the people you miss in the business and the way you covered them that is now disappearing. >> well, i tell you, the first thing you make me think of, i love old style political figures. by which i mean congressmen and senators and governors over a certain age who when they meet you say, oh, hello, it's nice to meet you, and they'll sit down and talk with you. if you boelkts have a sense of humor, you'll have a lot of fun and be funny together. you'll be warm and get to kw each other, no matter what party you're in, no matter what ideology you appear to represent. i find, meek, maybe i'm wrong, some of the younger figures get

a little squirrely-eyed if they're in a room with righties or a righty with a lefty. you put the finger on it. i miss the more affection at world of politics of the '50s, '60s, '70s, '80s. i don't know what year it ended. i did include a chapter called the people i miss. through my years did a lot of eulogies wiy ies of a lot of pe. one you care greatly about. tim russert. when people leave, i don't want them to just leave us, i want to describe what they were, what they looked like, what they did, why it hit us like a blow to the heart when they left us. i don't know why but it turned into a whole chapter in the book. >> the book is "the time of our

lives." peggy nun peggy noonan. thank you so much for being on the show. >> thank you. i'll see you, joe, tomorrow at the 92nd street y. >> sounds great, looking forward to it. >> coming up on "morning joe" live from wichita state university, we'll talk about the fight against isis and the challenges facing all veterans back home. keep it right here on "morning joe." the future belongs to the fast.

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it is 34 past the hour. up next, he's got the name recognition, but few people really know what's driving the billionaire businessman and political player charles koch. that conversation is next on "morning joe." it's more than a network and the cloud. it's reliable uptime. and multi-layered security. it's how you stay connected to each other and to your customers.

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current political system in this country is rigged. >> we're excited because we're here in your boyhood home. >> yeah. >> and we're here in a place where your father once said of you, everybody likes charles and nothing worries him as long as work doesn't come too close. and i read your book and i'm just wondering, was he afraid you were going to end up being one of those, quote, country club bums? >> i was 13 when he wrote that, and he had me work in virtually all my spare time, all my free time from the time i was 6. i started out digging dandelions and bailing hay and graduated to milks cow, shoveling stalls, fixing fences, and went up from there. so i was a little burned out on this stuff by the time i was 13. >> and also you have been chartably called a free spirit. you bounced around to eight different high schools -- eight

different schools by the time you graduated from high school. >> eight? >> eight? even by joe and mika standards, that's pretty bad. >> that's bad. >> we also heard you got kicked out of a military school for drinking. so the question is -- >> wait a second. i've got to clarify that. i was coming back my junior year coming back on the train because back in those day, that was ancient. you probably wermt even born back then. but i was coming back from the train and we got some beer, and i thought that's what military people did in their time off is drink. >> is that what they all say. >> yeah. that's so old. they do other things too. anyway, we get back and someone passed out in the comic-co comm offi office and he ratted us out and

we got in trouble but i got bang in. >> what was the light that came on for you? >>ist was several. first of all, my father was dedicated to instilling the work ethic. growing up that's all i knew do was work. after a while i had nothing against it because that became a habit and that was his plan. and then he also stressed integrity, humility, treating people with dignity and respect, and having a tremendous thirst for knowledge. well, i had struggled with all of those, but particularly the thirst for knowledge. and it wasn't till like my junior year that i started to get that. and so my last two years at culver, in spite of getting kicked out, my grades were good, good enough to get into m.i.t. i found myself. i had a gift for math and that

turned into science. i learned at m.i.t. in all the science i learned it's an ordered universe and if you want to do well in the physical world, you needed to understand science and engineering and you needed to be able to practice it. and so i became fascinated with the philosophy of science and the scientific method, and that's the foundation of our company and our success, what we call, as you've seen in the book, republic of science and the scientific method. >> let's talk about the book and start with the title. how do you define good profit? >> good profit i define just that way, is profit -- a good profit is profit that becomes from contributing to society, from helping other people improve their lives. and for a business, this means producing products and services that your customers value more than the alternatives while more

efficiently using resources and being among the safest and environmentally protective producer. and so when you do those, you create good profit. and so this was -- my philosophy -- i developed it early on. that is, if you want to be successful long term -- and i don't mean make a quick buck or something -- i mean over decades, you need to start with not how do i maximize my profit, but how do i maximize the value i can create for others. and if you do that, then they will want to compensate you. just like lebron james when he plays -- they want to see him. so he makes a lot of money because he's creating value for others. how do i know that? because people pay a lot of money to go see him. so it's win/win. >> can we talk about criminal justice reform for a minute because a couple of years b s b

before this discussion took center stage when your name came up, people thought about you and your brother as these reflux of right wing republicans that go straight down the party line. it really surprised a lot of people that you have teemed up with the white house, people like van jones, the aclu, others that really don't hang out at republican national conventions. but this has been something you've been talking about for a very long time. explain to conservatives that may agree with you only some issues but not this issue, why this is consistent with your philosophy of what government should and should not do. >> well, because if -- i mean government is -- is the legal agency of force, and you say, well, that's bad. we need force to defend the country, protect people's person

and property and other bad acts. but since we have in this country 5% of the world population and 25% of the world prison population, to me it's clear we're using too much force. so what is it? part of it is, i think, the drug laws, and we need -- and i've been at this for almost 50 years. we need to change these drug laws. i may not be as radical as i used to be. as you get older, you tend not to be. but we need to start by decriminalizing more of it. because somebody goes to jail and they get out and no one will hire them, and so what do they do? the only way they survive is to go back to crime. so we've got to change that if we want to break this cycle of poverty and dependency. >> i wanted to ask about -- you were talking about growing income disparity in two classes.

why are the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer? >> one of the reasons, as i said, is our criminal justice system, the poverty creating -- or inducing regulations, and the next one is an educational system that isn't providing the disadvantaged with the values and skills required for success. and that's what my father gave me. i mean he gave me a good education, but a good -- a big part of someone's education is learning to work. as michael rowe says, dirty jobs wchl very to celebrate dirty jobs. i had to do every dirty job. what do you learn on that? people don't realize what you learn by work. you learn discipline. you learn, gosh, this is hard, i want to be more ee fish end at it. you learn to improve, you learn to work with other people, you learn how to benefit.

we've got to do this dirty job, let's help each other and so on. >> what about the other side of the rich, the crony capitalism. it's one of the reasons we talk around the table why donald trump is doing so well. people think the system is rigged. >> it is. >> and you've talked about crony capitalism before how k street and wall street work together to make the big banks bigger and the rich richer. what stands up to that crony capitalism and how do you stop crony capitalism? >> well, i mean -- i mean it's -- this is tough, and that's -- but that's one of the -- that's probably the primary reason i wrote the book "good profit" and wrote it the way i did, to get the attention of businesspeople. look, you can be successful by focusing on creating real value for your customers in society rather than thinking, god,

they're a pesky lot, these customers. if somebody does better, i lose them. i don't want that. it's much easier go nnin and lobby, get mandates, suhcidys, tariffs to keep out these dirty foreign competitors, mandates, and so on, than it is to continually improve and do a better and better job of creating a better value for your customer. >> i like that. >> and you can read an excerpt of the book "good profit" at our site. still ahead is part 3 of this morning joe exclusive where david joins his brother david in a first ever double interview right after this. unitedhealthcare insurance company, go long. of course, how you plan is up to you. take healthcare. make sure you're covered for more

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and here we go at 52 past. we have to do this rapid fire. joining us republican congressman from ohio, the commander of the 22nd aerial refueling wing at mcconnell air force base. manufacturing is alive and well

here. >> no doubt about it, it is. talk about the importance of your mission here, your mission around the world. >> the 22nd aerial refueling wing is the largest in the world. there's no air force in the world that can do what the u.s. does. we can touch anyplace on the globe in a matter of hours, either with a clenched fist or helping hand depending on what's being called for. >> congressman, let's make you uncomfortable and ask why aren't we using our air force for a no-fly zone in syria to help there? >> first of all, hello to the shockers there. >> we could do it at relatively low risk.

we ought to be doing an awful lot more and the men and women at mcconnell would be a big part of that. >> talk about how the air force has changed dramatically over the last 30, 40 years, how you really do have reach across the globe, that somebody can fly a mission across the midwest and be back that night for dinner. >> we've shown that for many examples. over the last years, we have shrunk in size but not shrunk in capability. we're the most capable air force despite the fact we are the smallest we have been. air refuel missions, they depart from the midwest, they fly all over the world and get there, like i said, if it's a contingency where we need to show up with a helping hand or contingency that shows up with kinetic power, we make that happen. >> where does the base stand as

an employer in terms of the local economy? >> in the local economy, we have about a $750 million a year impact to the local economy here. we have been chosen as the first main operating base for the new next generation k.c. 46 tanker. with that we're bringing in upgrades to the base. a lot of that is getting put to subcontractors from the wichita community. >> the mayor told me 25% of the wichita's economy is based on the aviation business. obviously it's taken a massive dip, general aviation, since 2008, but you guys are starting to come back, aren't you, which means the economy's starting to come back. talk about that. >> joe, it is a big part of our economy. it's what brought me to wichita. a ran a machine shop that was a supplier to all those aviation

companies, great brands, they're all starting to do better. the regulatory environment is still not right. we've got to do better by allowing the great folks who run those machines, have the opportunity to create value for their customers. i know those in south central kansas will continue to create jobs and opportunity for those people in south central kansas. >> it's great to meet you. >> still ahead, ben carson cements his place as the national front-runner but what do key polls say? we'll have the latest numbers straight ahead. and more from our exclusive joint interview with the koch brothers. "morning joe" is coming right back. hey, you forgot the milk!

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good morning. welcome to a very special edition of "morning joe." we are live from wichita state university in wichita, kansas. [ cheers and applause ] >> so today is the first tuesday after the first monday in november, that means one thing. election day. and today all across america,

including in my hometown, voters are going to go out and they're going to be electing new mayors and some states are even going to be choosing new legislators, kentucky and mississippi are going to be picking a new governor today. and there are going to be some voter initiatives on the ballot as well. so election day a big day. >> but the main event of course is the 2016 presidential election, which is now just one year out and today msnbc is kicking off its super tuesday series with on-the-ground reporting from key state and every week leading up to next year's election. we are also now just three months from the first votes being cast in the race for the next president, the iowa caucuses. >> so this morning we're a stone's throw away from that important first state of iowa at wichita state university. and among the many things for which wichita is known, it's the

so-called air capital of the world. >> yesterday we had the rare opportunity to sit down with charles koch in a wide ranging interview. we discussed his best selling book, his unique background and his very interesting thoughts on politics. plus david koch joined the conversation for the brother's first-ever joint interview. >> and that was fascinating. >> we got a chance to know them on a personal level and also ask those questions that people are asking. >> look who we have with us this morning. >> why doesnn't we have some people -- >> msnbc contributor mike barnicle. and senior white house

correspondent sam stein. and political and analyst and former chairman of the republican national committee, michael steele joins us. and back in new york we have willie geist and pulitzer prize winning his tore -- historian john meacham. >> we've been saying all along, let's wait and see if any of these debate performances translate into success at the polls. i've got to say we have a new national poll out. we have a series of state polls pou out. >> right, right. >> it stills looks like the republican party with 90 days till the iowa caucuses are still

without a doubt the party of carson and trump. >> ben carson at 29%, leads trump by 6%. marco rubio is 11%, ted cruz is in fourth and jeb bush is unchanged at 8%. carly fiorina, john kasich, mike huckabee, chris christie and rand paul are all at 3%. when asked who has the best chance in the general election,

donald trump is the leader. this is the weekly tracking poll conducted in the days after the debate shows trump leading carson by ten points. >> we've been sitting here talking about who's going to move this way, who's going to move that way? whether you're looking at this poll completely after the debate and trump had his best debate performance without a doubt in that debate or the nbc poll, michael steele, the republican party, our republican party, is still a wholly owned subsidiary of two men. everybody is saying trump is in first place for a hundred days, hundred days, hundred days. i wonder how many days trump and carson have been over the 50%

threshold, at least a month or two. and all of these other candidates, they're just along for the ride. >> they still don't have the traction. the interesting thing about the trump numbers, when you peel it back, the question about the economy is really what keeps him in place. that's the number that has him like 30 points ahead of everybody else in the field and as long as the country -- a lot of republicans at least feel these going to be the best one for the economy, it's going to keep him there. that came through in that last debate. >> mike, you have been talking about it for years, the unease with the economy. the rich getting richer, the poor getting poorer and the middle class falling behind. james carville, it's the economy, stupid. in these republican prime rich polls, trump is always ahead by 15, 20, 25, 30 points when asked who can best handle the economy, despite character, despite

everything else, is that what's driving this? >> it's part of what's driving it. if you look at the numbers at the poll just released, 52% of the republican electorate polled are either with trump or carson. have to believe the rest of the numbers, 48%, are tremendously fluid around several different candidates. trump his 23% in that poll doesn't move. i think carson's will move. but trump's 23% won't move largely because of two things, jobs, i'll make america great again, i'll put you back to work. whether you believe it or not, that's what he says, it takes hold and he becomes self-funded. i'm not beholden to anybody. >> that is kwaully as important, powerful. >> let's see how this translates. because national polls are beauty contests. that's talk about where it

really matters. >> a new poll of new hampshire republicans shows marco rubio has tripled his support in the first primary state. rubio is rising up from just 4 points last month to 13%. then come ohio governor john kasich ahead of ted cruz and jeb bush stuck at sixth, despite the fact that his campaign has spent $4.8 million. rub rubio. donald trump has dropped from a

net positive of 18 points to just 6. >> donald trump still up by 7 percent and points. >> a lot movement. >> it seems like a lot of movement. after the last debate, carly fiorina was the one that jumped up, now kasich jumping up, rubio jumping up. for carson to be number two in new hampshire is pretty amazing. >> that's crazy. >> carson doesn't translate as well to new hampshire as iowa. i'd add one issue to what mike is talking about. i think immigration plays a big role here. it and mates the base in ways others don't. people are very skeptical of marco rubio for that because he's on the senate immigration bill and trump attacked that issues early on out of the gate. i look at the favorability numbers and i know that jeb was plus two there, if you rook at

the wall street journal numbers, 19% positive, 43% negative. i mean, that is the bottom of the happy. >> he's still fifth or sixth. and even with the -- i mean, donald trump is a positive 49% to rubio's 62. so likability isn't translating. >> he spent so much money to be amenable to voters and to be stuck at that popularity means says he doesn't. >> when you have somebody as low key as jeb is and that hasn't gone out of his way to offend him and you have favorability numbers upside down like that, you're dealing with a legacy there, you're dealing with your father and your brother being president. and, willie geist, it hard to look at anything jeb's done on the campaign trail that would

make him have high unfavorabilities other than his last name. >> he a good speech yesterday but you start looking at this race now. as you said at the top of the show, mika, three months until we vote in iowa. when does the change happen? how does the chang happen? you have two dpies at the top up 20 points on everybody else and the argument has been establishment candidates like marco rubio and jeb bush and ted cruz will sit and wait for carson and trump to implode and then move up. we're this far long, i'm not sure how it's going to implode at this point. it seems to me -- they better find a way in a hurry to catch up with cruz and trump. >> one thing we're finding with

trump time and time again, he's fallen a couple of times but he always rises back up. a lot was made of an iowa poll that he was getting beaten in last week. we have a new iowa poll taken, again after the last debate, it shows a different story. >> let's go to that last poll. it surveys republicans from public policy polling shows trump barely in the lead. cruz is in third at 14%, rubio at fourth with jindal this as a devastating new poll shows bush falling to fifth place in his home state of florida. donald trump is way ahead at 27% in florida. rubio is second. >> i mean, let's stop there and keep that poll up. and everybody just soak that in. donald trump is ahead of the

sitting u.s. senator in the state of florida, in his home state by 11 points. >> former governor. >> former governor jeb bush, i mean, it's unbelievable, by 15 points. michael steele, i'm sorry, that basically is the state of this race right now. in his own home state, marco rubio, who is supposed to be the savior of the republican party is getting trounced by donald trump. jeb bush, who is supposed to be the power house at the beginning of this campaign getting trounced by donald trump in their home state. >> i think has florida goes, so goes the rest of the country at this point. there's a lot of thread there for someone like trump to weave into other states. >> still ahead on "morning joe" we sit with two of the most influential names in politics and business. the first ever joint interview

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now for something no one has ever seen before, we sit down with charles and david koch for their first ever joint interview. sitting in their childhood home, the influential brothers reveal what makes them different, what inspired their generosity and the experience one brother had in running for political office. >> sitting here in your childhood home, we have the koch brothers. which one was the good brother?

>> david was. >> well, no, come on, david. >> i was very good because i helped charles correct some of his terrible behavior. >> i see. >> everything he did wrong, i taught him the tricks on how to do it. >> you were the big brother. >> yeah, four and a half years older. i was five years ahead of him in school. >> did he boss you around? >> well, he helped me in a lot of different ways. let's put it that way. >> and then we'd have water polo games. and that would get rough. but i was pumped up playing rugby -- >> you guys both play rugby? >> i broke an achilles tendon and i was finished. i got my teeth knocked out and had all these operations. but it was worth it. >> you were a rough guy. we thought you were a philosopher. >> you got to learn from the school of hard knocks. >> when we've heard about the koch brothers, the koch brothers, everybody talks about the koch brothers like you're

conjoined twins. but you all are actually very different. talk about the misperception, first of all, and then talk about how you guys are just different people. >> well, this is -- i believe to have any long-lasting partnership, three requirements. you've got to share vision and values and bring complementary capabilities and we're quite different. we share vision and values and we have quite different capabilities, although we both studied engineering, i was more in math, philosophy, scientific method, philosophy of science and david was an engineer. as a matter of fact, as you can tell in the book, our father said if any of the kids was going to be an engineer, it david. and david spends most of his time on developing devices and systems that are engineering based that create value for our customers. so we have quite different

capabilities and interests. >> in 1970 i decided to go to work for the family company. and i joined the -- one of our companies that is a high technology company and they put me out in the field selling our various products and as a result, why, i've gotten building the technology companies that we have larger and large ar and larger. when i first joined the company, we had just $6 million revenue. and now years later our revenue is $2 billion. we've done pretty well there. >> those are pretty good numbers. >> we've been told that you take after your mother by being very sociable and loving to go out

and that you take after your father, who would go to parties with your mother, hang out for 15 minutes and then come back home and read books. >> that is so true. >> it was worse than that. my mother, anymore who asked her for anything, she felt a moral obligation to do it, particularly if anyone was needy. and she never felt she was worthy. >> it's hard to find people in new york, liberals, we were talking about this before, liberals or conservatives alike, who haven't been touched by your graciousness, whether it's towards the arts or cancer research. do you think you got that instinct from your mom? >> oh, i think so. yeah, i love the world of philanthropy. i was just counting the number

of major gifts that i've given in the last, oh, 10, 15 years and it's 22 different things that i've contributed to. and i feel that that is a contribution that i'm very proud of and i'm glad that i've done that. >> david, i've heard you say that after that airplane crash where you almost died and so many people died in it that you felt you were saved for a reason and that was to do good in your own way. is that right? >> that's definitely true. when this accident occurred, i almost died because the plane filled up with smoke and i went up to the front of the plane and got the galley door open and then jumped out. and i -- and when i was able to get away from the airplane, i felt that the good lord has been

sitting on my shoulder. he's sparing me for something very, very important and i'm going to do everything i can to have the good lord look after me and help me in so many different ways. >> you know, it interesting also how -- what you learned through your journey with cancer where you are went to sloan kettering and asked after finding out you had cancer, asked where you could contribute for prostate cancer research and their response was shocking. >> yes. i called up the president of the hospital and -- paul marks, and i said, paul, i really would like to make a major contribution to the cancer research program that you have going on here. and would you be willing to

accept a million dollar gift so we can enlarge the prostate cancer program substantially? and there was this long pause on the phone and finally paul marks, the head of the hospital, said, david, i am really apologetic because i've -- we do not have any prostate cancer research. and i said, well, is it okay if i give you the money anyway and you can bring in some top researchers and create the first outstanding prostate cancer program there is? he said we'd love to you do that. >> and you've given up to 200 million over the past 20 years, is that right? >> that's exactly right. >> you also had a run at political office before. >> yeah. >> how did you find actually

running for office? >> el -- well, i found it extremely difficult. >> when you're running as a libertarian, you don't need to spin things, you're just out there telling it like it is in your perspective because you know you have no chance of win persian gulf. >> when i spoke to these audiences, particularly students, god, they disliked me. they were extremely unfriendly. and i felt very demoralized trying to speak to those students and grown-up people. any, i was probably not a very good candidate but i did try. >> isn't it interesting as the government has gotten larger and larger, what we find is a real instinct to move towards a more

libertarian position, whether it's on economic issues where people want you out -- want the government out of their lives or social issues where it seems like they want the government out of their bedroom. even though you've talked before about your disgust with what's happening in washington, d.c., it does seem like americans are a lot hungrier for this message than they were. >> foreign policy issues. to me foreign policy is a form of insanity. and i mean that in the sense that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and getting the same result. we keep kicking out dictators and we don't get anything better and we mess up a lot of lives in the process. we spend fortunes and have a lot of americans killed and maimed. what do we have to show for it. it's kind of like my support for

some of these republican candidates. >> still ahead on "morning joe," there are 1.5 million inmates in state and federal prisons in the united states. coming up, we'll talk to david gilke a gilke about criminal justice reform. "morning joe" will be right back. ons here. look for risks there. and search for opportunity everywhere. global markets may be uncertain. but you can feel confident in our investment experience... ... around the world. call a t. rowe price investment specialist, or your advisor... ...and see how we can help you find global opportunity. t. rowe price. invest with confidence.

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the federal government is a big employer, as you know. like a lot of big employers, there's a box that asks do you have a criminal record? if you answer yes, then a lot of times you're not getting a call back. we're going to do our part in changing this. the federal government, i believe, should not use criminal history to screen out applicants before we even look at their qualifications. we can't dismiss people out of hand simply because of a mistake that they made in the past. keep in mind some really good, really successful companies are already doing this. walmart, target, koch industries, home depot, they've already taken action to ban the box on their own. and 19 states have done the same.

>> did he just say koch? that was president obama discussing the growing bipartisan effort to reform our nation's criminal justice system. joining us, senior council at koch industries and member of the wichita gang coalition and real men real heros, david gilke. great to have you both on the program. >> we got an e-mail saying we don't agree with the kochs on everything but we agree with this. >> i'm a lover, not a fighter. i'm a pats fan. i've been meeting with ms. jarrett a lot and this is a bipartisan coalition. >> at a time when washington can't get things fixed, you're doing something that would have been politically unimaginable,

you, the white house, aclu, this is fairly controversial legislation but there's a bipartisan effort to really change criminal justice in america. >> it really shouldn't be that controversial. it needs to be a bipartisan effort because we know we got into this mess in the criminal justice system in a bipartisan way. it started in the 80s with reagan and bush and hillary clinton and joe biden. what we're talking about, the forms in the senate reform bill are reforms that have worked in dozens of states, including red states, georgia, texas, and the reality is in those states they've reduced incarceration, reduced spending and they've reduced crime and it's helped people rebuild their lives and have a second chance, which is so important in our society. >> david, that's what we keep hearing when we talk about criminal justice reform. this is about helping the most disadvantaged in america make a

mistake but get back up on their feet and start a new life. >> yeah. i know i can speak for myself being a former inmate and coming back to the community, it's hard. you want the community to wrap their arms around you and show you some love. you have to have a support network when you come home. when you go in, it's survival mode. when you come out, you want to live and be productive and take care of your family and do the right things. >> david, both you and your wife are engaged and involved in this program. you're dealing with a great many young people, male and female, many of them probably from broken homes, many of them who have heard the sounds of gunfire more than they've heard the sound of music in their lives. what do you do, what's your argument between the two competing forces of the street and the school? >> well, i think we need to have

more intervention and prevention programs in our schools. i think a lot of our young people are falling through the gaps because of the lack of male role models and things of that sort. i think one thing we need to do is focus really hard on educating our young people and not be scared of our young generation but educate them more so they can be productive. >> we're hoping one day sam stein will be productive as well but it hasn't happened yet. >> took you a while to get to that dig but i appreciate it. >> what are the three things, maybe two that our political system and our culture and society has a whole to help people who leave prison, make sure they reenter society and don't get reincarcerated? >> first of all, we got to give them jobs. nothing stops a bullet like a job. i think people need to understand when these people come home, the first thing

they're looking for is stability and one way to do that is to give them jobs. if they don't have a place to go work, they're going to go back to criminal behavior because they've still in survival mode. they want to come home to live. without a job, i know for myself coming home and looking for a job and when i fill out an application, my gets thrown in the garbage. >> we have a new safety valve where judges can still throw the book at offenders but they don't have to. they can give them another path, show them some mercy. >> especially on drug crimes, right? >> low-level drug offenders. if you get a five-year sentence,

you can't get a job when you get out. we turn people that we're mad at to people we're scared of. >> what kind of programs in prison can you do to help with that reentry? >> that's starting to change, too. in kansas we have a holistic approach, to whatever's ailing them, and pair them up with a mentor to help them find a job when they get on the streets. >> one of the things we talked about throughout the year, if you're a white kid living in scarsdale, you get caught with pot, chances are good you're in a diversion program all over america. but if you are ten miles away in the bronx and you're a black kid

or hispanic kid, you could be going to jail for two or three years. >> you need to end the disparity in the whole justice system between rich and poor. we have a two-tier system. if you're wealthy, you're probably going to be okay, regardless of what you did. and if you're poor you're going to get run over. >> which is a violation of the sixth amendment. >> you have judges who are concerned now that people are pleading guilty to things they didn't do because it's overwhelmingly. particularly if you're poor, you don't have a lawyer appointed full time to you. it's a business decision. you say i'll take the two or three years and then get out.

to keep you from realizing the american dream and partaking in american life. >> and there are some innocent people, especially without adequate representation that say i'd rather take a deal and sit in jail for two years then have them take me to trial without a good despair, people making a lot of money off the prison system. one thing that i personally think should happen is if a person should pay their debt to society, i think their record should be automatically expunged after five years. they should be reintegrated back into our community. expunkment if they haven't committed any crimes after five years. >> one of the keefe issues of our time. >> really quickly, the numbers. >> how much do we spend on educating americans versus

incarcerating americans? >> we spend $80 billion a year in than we spend on educating people in this country. >> still ahead, a taco bell executive has lost his job after this video of him attacking -- oh, my gosh, that was an executive? so he attacked an uber driver. >> oh, my gosh! >> but you got to see what the uber driver did. he maced him. yeah. plus sara eisen joins us with the latest business headlines. nice little violent tease to break. we'll be right back with much more "morning joe." the future belongs to the fast.

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a taco bell executive has lost his job after attacking an uber driver went viral. 32-year-old benjamin golden led mobile commercial and innovation projects for taco bell. in a statement to cnbc, the fast food chain writes it's clear that golden can no longer work for them. we also have offered and encouraged him to seek professional help.

>> the driver said he had a bad feeling about him and he had had it up to here with people being abusive and not getting paid and so he maced him. >> i'm all for criminal justice reform. that guy should spend some nights in jail. >> anger management issues. >> i wonder about the wall that cabs have, you know. >> it's a good point. something to watch. security. >> that guy seems like a real loser to be honest. >> let's go to business before the bell, cnbc's sara eisen. >> we have a $6 million deal in a video game industry. blizzard is going to be scooping up king digital, the company behind the very popular candy crush. this deal is all about the

growth in mobile and digital gaming. because world of war craft and call of duty are popular on consoles in your living room but activism blizzard needs to get a piece of your mobile phones, social media gaming and that's what king digital has. and candy crush, 60% of the its users are women. i want to maengs the laention t the keystone pipeline has asked for a delay. it punts the decision potentially to the next administration after 2016. all the republicans say they're on board. hillary clinton is against it. whoever makes the decision, it might not be the obama administration if they decide to accept the suspension. >> i'll tell you what, big news

on the video gaming front. this is something sam and i, we have a lot of things where we're not in common because he's a very narrow shouldered millennial. as you know, i've been playing call of duty for years with the head phones and microphones, having like 11-year-old kids in croatia insult me as they're shooting me. and sam is a huge candy crush fan. >> i just lost $100 to him playing candy crush during the break. >> we've been waiting for this all morning. head basketball coach greg marshall. [ cheers and applause ] >> and we'll talk with the uflt president as well. right here on "morning joe." to take their act to the next level... before earning 1% cash back everywhere, every time... 2% back at the grocery store... and 3% back on gas... vince of the flying branzinos

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gjoins us now, president of wichita state university and head basketball coach mitch marshall. >> mr. president, despite the fact they're cheering for you, i'm going to ask the coach the first question. >> hi, coach! >> front page of the paper, you guys are number ten and your continuous streak, unbelievable.

how are you doing it and the players doing it? >> my assistant coaches have been able to procure some really great men. they commit to themselves and to their teammates and the program. they get in the weight room and develop their bodies and they leave as four and five-star guys that help us win. >> first of all, you got the royals and now you got the shockers. so congratulations here. but basketball is a little like hockey in that it's such a team game. what's your philosophy as a coach in terms of keeping the ball moving, what's your philosophy? >> we play team basketball. we play both ends. you don't get to display that offensive talent and skill unless you get in a stance and guard and rebound each possession. so our guys are aware of that. we want to take a great shot

every time. we pass up a good one to get a great one. with this 30-second shot clock, it's going to change our flo flossfulflos philosophy a little bit. >> what do you think, power forward or -- >> you they called me on the court, the round mound of rebound. i couldn't jump but i knew how to use my body to push people up. >> you're really helping turns this institution into a center for innovation. talk about that. zit certainly what we want to do and where we're headed. we closed the golf course near the campus last year. airbus is moving their operation there january 17th. we have an experiential program

coming. >> i was surprised at the relatively low cost of in-state tuition. >> yeah. >> how many of the students are from kansas ? >> most of them are, probably 70%. but because of of the economy, we've been reaching out to texas and oklahoma. greater tulsa and greater oklahoma city have been declared in state because of the economy and the tight ties we have to those areas and i'm going to try to get dallas fort worth. if you look at this region of the world, that is the economic hub. we trade there, we continue to draw there and we want to make sure that we really do the best by this region by encouraging people to come here and be part of it. >> fantastic to be here with you today. thank you very much. john bardo and greg marshall,

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person, daniela, happy birthday. >> sam, what did you learn? >> well, i didn't learn anything but, coach, i have a year of postgrad eligibility. >> you know what, he's small but he's slow. >> i learned there's a lot more to the koch brothers than what you read in the newspapers. >> on took two years to get them. >> mr. president, what did you learn? >> i learned that you guys are what you appeared to be and we're really glad you're here. >> thank you so much. coach, what did you learn today? >> i learned two things, we're number ten in the country and you play call of duty with a young man in cambodia that's 11 years old. >> and he always wins! that's the frustrating part. >> thank you! what school spirit you guys

have. go shockers. if it's way too early, mika, what time is it? >> it's time for "morning joe." but now it's time for "msnbc live." have a great day. and right now on msnbc, the doctor is in. one year to go until the presidential election and we've got our new nbc new/wall street journal poll out overnight showing ben carson jumping to the top of the republican field. donald trump is now in second. he's up and early attacking the front-runner. we're going to show you his reaction. and this morning president obama has something to say about all of the gop candidates after they banded together to try and revamp the debate process. >> if you can't handle those gu guys, you know, then i don't think the chinese and t