ground? sh lam eel sh lam ozzel, it's debate night in milwaukee. this is "mtp daily" and it starts right now. come on, a little lavern & shirley humor didn't hurt anybody. hello from new york on this super tuesday. the debate stage will be less crowded tonight but the stakes are higher than ever for a few candidates. everyone's expecting some form of bush/rubio round 2 tonight. a report in the "new york times" said jeb bush's super pac is ready to shell out $20 million to take down rubio. te telegraphing these plans -- or did jeb bush telegraph them, or did somebody leak them? here's the rubio response which stars jeb bush. >> i'm a huge marco fan. he's probably the most articulate conservative on the

scene today with the fortitude to be a good president. >> so proud of his high voltage energy and his enthusiasm. >> and while rubio beats back at bush, he may need to brace himself for attacks from another direction on the debate stage. >> everyone tells me rubio's a wonderful speaker. i said really? tell me why. >> that's right, donald trump is taking shots at the competition leading up to tonight's debate. we might actually see a trump/carson clash on stage if trump keeps up this kind of talk. >> if you try and hit your mother over the head with a hammer, your poll numbers go up. this is the only election in history where you're better off if you stabbed somebody. what are we coming to? >> meantime, senator lindsey graham, got the big unvittation for tonight's debate. but he'll be here instead. and we'll hear from greg craig on the stalled efforts to close

git gitmo. all that ahead, but first kasie hunt, chris jansing and pete williams join me. so let's start with the escalating rivalry between the two former florida pals out on the trail. jeb bush has stepped up his criticism of rubio. but he hasn't been able to budge in the polls since the last debate. joining me now is kasie hunt. so, kasie, i have to say, this telegraphing of the rubio hit, this smells of some donor or donors that were given a presentation by the super pac, and then leaked all this out. and boy, the rubio campaign is the one benefitting right now. >> the rubio campaign is definitely the group here that's jumping on this. although, i have to say, behind the scenes, the bush campaign is being pretty aggressive in talking about this idea that rubio is really open to hillary

clinton, attacks that -- the idea that hillary clinton is absolutely going to destroy him in the general election. that is definitely the view of at least the operatives around bush. and of course you know that that abortion ad that was cut by right to rise reportedly of course is a general election attack. take a listen to what bush himself had to say when he was asked about abortion exceptions in new hampshire last week. >> during my time, i was probably the most prolife governor in the country and certainly the most in the state. unlike others, i got to act on it. i did it. and i did it in a way that allowed me to win re-election going away. >> insinuating that marco rubio's -- chuck, there's so much discontent among so many bush supporters who don't want to see him go after rubio.

and even bush himself has struggled to land those attacks. we saw that in the last debate. i saw it in my interview with him and i think you saw it there. he was talking about himself. he wasn't going after his former protege. >> especially after this leak that was in "the times" about the plans against rubio, that bush feels like he can go after rubio on some things tonight. but who knows, we'll see. media criticism of course dominated the last republican debate and the top media critic of late will take center stage tonight. ben carson said it's the media that has given him undue scrutiny because they view him as a threat. carson has not enjoyed a closer focus from reporters, but thanked them for the fund raising boost. along with the money, reports are coming out that support carson's account. an article from parade magazine includes an interview with carson's mother, in that

interview in 1997, she backs up the claim that he tried to stab a friend. chris jansing is covering the campaign and is also is milwaukee. so, chris, what was a feeding frenzy four or five days ago, started with the west point stuff, going into the personal stories of his childhood, i assume the carson campaign feels as if they're not in feeding frenzy mode, even if the press still is. >> not only do they feel like they're not in feeding frenzy mode, they feel like it's worked to their advantage. they've seen him get more fired up than they've seen him throughout this campaign. as you know, he's a low-key guy, but when i talked to him on saturday, that was the most animated i had seen him. it's fueling their fund-raising and they sent out yet another note. let me read for you a little bit of this e-mail that went out. if you've been watching the news, they write to their supporters, you've seen the media is in full attack mode. they've been tracking down and interviewing my childhood

friends and accusing me of fabricating parts of my personal history. and then of course they ask for money and they say thanks. they looked at the new mcclatchy poll which has them leading nationally, but nobody comes even close to him when they ask the question, the more you learn about them the more you like them. 67 to 20, it's a positive for ben carson. and they just feel as though, not only has this not hurt them, it's helped them particularly with their base, chuck. >> and a lot of people think you attack carson at your own peril since he's the most well liked republican candidate on the stage among republican voters. but donald trump doesn't shy from these things. so we'll be watching. chris, thanks so much. now to a topic that's very likely to come up in tonight's debate.

president obama's actions on immigration are likely headed to the supreme court. the justice department announced today it will file an appeal after an appeals court ruling blocked the president's plan to protect up to five million additional undocumented immigrants from deportation. >> we're confident in the power of the legal argument, and that's, i think, why you're seeing the department of justice make such a quick decision to move this on up the line to the supreme court. >> of course the supreme court doesn't have to take up the case, but the administration hopes it will, which means we could be headed for a ruling in late june, just days before the 2016 republican convention. and who knows where the race is at the time and where immigration fits in. joining me now, our justice correspondent, pete williams. let's start with the basics here. 2-1 decision in a circuit, and they didn't ask for the full circuit to weigh in. they went ahead with this. >> right. >> doesn't that mean they want to fast-track it to the supreme court? >> it sure does.

this is very unusual that the justice department, with less than 24 hours after getting an appeals court decision decide what it was going to do. and it maybe in part what josh earnest said that the government is convinced of the rightness of its argument, but more than anything, it's a desire to get this settled while the president is still in the white house. the other option would have been to go to the full fifth circuit court of appeals and try to get them to rehear the case. but they wouldn't do that unless they were pretty confident they were going to win, and they had a lot of time. they don't have a lot of time. so they took the other option, which is to go right to the supreme court. >> well, isn't it possible that justice roberts says, boy, our term is just really full next year, and we want to take this up, but i don't know if we -- and we're in the middle of it now, i don't know if we have time this year to hear this case. >> couple of things about that. first of all, their docket isn't really full yet. >> okay.

>> there's still time. who knows what the docket will look like by the time by the schedule plays out. you have a certain number of days to file your brief and the other side has a chance to answer and then and only then does it go to the justices and it won't just be the chief justice that decides. it takes four votes to grant a case. it's not clear, it's not 100% clear that the supreme court would take this case. obamacare's a different matter. that's an act of congress. and when lower courts strike it down or there's problems with it, it's almost a duty of the supreme court to take the case. this is different. this is an administrative action, so perhaps the pressure isn't as high. there's not a split among the circuits about this particular issue, because it's only been in one circuit. so, you know, they may or may not take it, who knows. probably would, i would think. >> but they don't feel the pressure to do it. >> i don't know whether they feel the pressure to do it or not. i think they recognize the

magnitude of the issue and that if they don't, it's going to come back sooner or later. >> that's for sure, but i'll tell you, end of june, days for the republican convention, a ruling on this, you want to talk about inserting immigration as if it wasn't already going to be a part of the campaign, but taking it up a notch. >> well, this happens every time there's an election year and that's never frightened the supreme court away from big issues before. >> pete williams, you got a great beat. looks to get a lot more fun next year. thank you, sir. >> thank you. governor scott walker is out of the 2016 race, but his state is the center stage tonight as the republican candidates face off in milwaukee. some candidates are actively now jockeying for walker's support. jeb bush joined walker on monday at an event in waukesha. later that day, walker appeared with rubio. he hasn't backed a republican since ronald reagan, but the margin has been very narrow in

every election. democrats in the state are working to flip a senate seat. incumbent ron johnson is up for re-election in a rematch against russ fine gold, but that's not goodbye to be anything other than i big fight. i can promise you that. republicans are releasing their first attack on fine gold tonight that will air very quickly during the debate. joining me here to talk about wisconsin republicans, she's here in new york, is the wisconsin lieutenant governor rebecca clay fish. >> hi, chuck. those pictures were all fine gold stuff. we got to make sure ron johnson's going back to the senate. >> i want to talk about, obviously had this gone a different way, scott walker would be in the debate. >> indeed. >> and when he was running for president, here's what donald trump was starting to say about the state of wisconsin. >> here's what happens with president walker, whose state by the way, is a disaster. wisconsin is doing terribly. first of all, it's in turmoil. the roads are a disaster because

they don't have any money to rebuild them. they're borrowing money like crazy. they projected a $1 billion surplus and it turns out to be a deficit of $2.2 billion. >> we don't have 20 minutes here to beat back those accusations. >> would have been fun, though. full 20 minutes would have been awesome. >> what is donald trump saying there? >> transportation logistics is one of our fastest growth industries. and if he used our roads and not a helicopter, then he would know that our roads are being repaired and made to the point where we do a heck of a lot of exporting from our state. and it's because of our really terrific infrastructure that governor scott walker has invested in over the last years that our legislature just approved more money. >> but the budget deficit is a real issue. >> the thing about what mr. trump is saying is pretty unfortunate because in

wisconsin, it's actually illegal. you can't pass a budget that's not balanced. and so of course the budget that our legislature passed and that the governor signed was balanced. there's no deficit. >> but you were short of funds, so you had to go back, the projection had it short, so you had to fill in the gap. >> but this is a political invention by our opponents, chuck. you've seen this before in any number of political races. anyone who has a mortgage has a deficit, right? because you aren't able to front the bank all the cash to pay off your house in one swoop. it's the same thing. if you bond for something, then you got a deficit. >> well, is the wisconsin model something you think republicans running for president ought to be borrowing from? >> no question. governor scott walker has created 150,000 jobs after we lost 133,000 jobs. after we saw property taxes sky rocket over the previous decade,

they've gone down every single year under governor walker's leadership. when we won't up with a surplus in the budget, we condensed and dropped income tax rates. we are going after economic development as a top priority and the proof is in the pudding, 4.3% unemployment. much lower than the national average. >> and why is it that minnesota, its economy improved faster than wisconsin's? they went to the progressive route, raising taxes. you cut some taxes. one state seemed to get out of the economic recession a lot faster than the other. >> glad you brought this up. because when you see minnesota against wisconsin comparisons, you're talk about a tale of two cities, minneapolis versus milwaukee. we love milwaukee. and in fact, you mentioned lavern & shirley. that's a great part of

milwaukee's heritage. a lot of people know that tv show, and "happy days." but instead of talking about milwaukee's past what i'd love to talk about is milwaukee's future and a global water center and our fresh waters technologies cluster. i'd love to talk about the fact that we're the battery capital of the world is the home of the midwest energy research consortium, and we're bullish on the fact that milwaukee is the destination for a lot of young chicago entrepreneurs, because they're seeing faster commute, lower cost of living. they can be big fish in a small pond, and they've seen the types of things that wisconsin has implemented that illinois has not, including being the only state in america, with no unfunded pension liability. >> what are you looking for tonight that would decide your vote in the primary? obviously, you're a walker guy -- gal when he was running. >> that's right. we're from wisconsin. everybody's guys. >> who are you looking for

tonight what would sway your vote? >> we have an issue in wisconsin. it's a challenge that the heartland of america is facing. it's called a skills gap. even though we know that folks are excited about getting back into the workforce, the recession is open and we have 100,000 open jobs on our free workforce website. >> but you don't feel like the people have the skills to full them? >> our employers are telling us the skills gap is their biggest issue. tonight, i want to see candidates talk in specifics about their education, their criminal justice reform, and their immigration solutions to this very important domestic and economic matter. >> i will leave it there. very substantial asks of you. we'll see if they respond. hope you're enjoying the city. >> it's been fantastic. >> excellent. >> great hospitality. >> thanks for coming on set. >> my pleasure. coming up, senator lindsey graham will get his message out from voters after being bumped

from tonight's debate stage. and later, the fight over the future of gitmo and how it impacts the obama administration's political legacy. cash back. or, you could make things easier on yourself. that's right, the quicksilver card from capital one. with quicksilver you earn unlimited 1.5% cash back on every purchase, everywhere. so, let's try this again. what's in your wallet? hey! how are you?g? where are we watching the game? you'll see. i think my boys have a shot this year. yeah, especially with this new offense we're running... i mean, our running back is a beast. once he hits the hole and breaks through the secondary, oh he's gone. and our linebackers and dbs dish out punishment, and never quit. ♪ you didn't expect this did you? no i didn't. the nissan altima. there's a fun side to every drive. nissan. innovation that excites.

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coming up on "mtp daily," how republican candidates' policies stack up. according to the conservative think-tank heritage action, their presidential platform review. today we have the latest poll that shows how republican candidates stack up against each other. mcclatchy shows two front-runners that we've seen all month long -- carson and trump. it goes back and forth. but look here at the bottom. senator lindsey graham, who was shut out in tonight's debate, he's at less than 1%. i'll talk to him next and figure out what's going on here. introducing new centrum vitamints. a multivitamin that contains a full spectrum of essential nutrients...

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vowed to watch and weigh in on social media during both the undercard and main stage debates. and the super pac that's backing graham up, put out this new ad. shaming debate organizers for excluding him based on poll numbers. >> on the eve of veterans day, republicans gather to debate the important issues facing our great nation, yet the only veteran in the field has been silenced. senator lindsey graham. retired air force colonel, national security expert, the only candidate with a realistic plan to destroy isis. ready to serve as commander in chief on day one. america needs lindsey graham's voice. >> and senator lindsey graham joins me now from manchester, new hampshire. so senator graham, obviously you're frustrated. >> yeah. it's kinda bizarre. >> what's your explanation? >> don't win the debate. >> don't win the debate? >> yeah, they'll throw you off. polling is being used and abused

in an absurd way. that's my explanation. >> the one thing i can't figure out, or maybe i can, and i've looked at lot of polling having to do with you, it's as if there's a conservative issue, that conservatives don't believe you're a real conservative. do you believe that's been the problem? that you've been -- because you're somebody that somebody might call pro amnesty, because you wanted sort of a compromise solution to immigration, that that just made it so that conservatives wouldn't even consider you? >> no, not really, because i just won a six-way primary in south carolina by 41 points on this very issue. i would argue that the primary electorate in south carolina is conservative. that i've been a leader on immigration. i embrace comprehensive immigration reform with a path way to citizenship. here's my theory. if you don't put my name in a

poll, i'll never do well. the last poll that the "wall street journal" did didn't include lindsey graham, and that knocked me out of the debate. if i break through, it would be in new hampshire. john mccain endorsed me today. there's an ad up and running. john won here twice. i hope by my hard work and john's help, we begin to show progress in new hampshire. >> why do you think that people have -- i mean, the three people that have popped, the outsider candidates that have popped. one of them bragged to me that she will not put any policy positions on paper. the other two have never done this before. could it simply be that your biggest problem is your first name is senator? >> well, if you're looking for somebody with no foreign policy experience, i'm your worst choice. if you're looking for somebody who doesn't have a plan, don't pick me. i mean, carly said she could do

the tax code on three pages. i'd like to see that. i like carly, but i'd like to see how you take the tax code and make it three pages, given the economy we have today. i think that's not unreasonable for you to ask if it's a three page document, let's see it. i'd like to know how we're going to get mexico to pay for the wall. do you deport 11 million people by looking at them? do they get a hearing? do they get a lawyer? how much would that cost? at the end of the day, things being said on our side are simplistic and are not going to lead to us winning in 2016, because if you go in the debate with hillary clinton and you say you have a tax code of three pages, you better be able to show it. >> so you think it's going to hurt the party? you think that if the nominee ends up being somebody who's not had to put a lot down on paper, that has been able to get away with vagaries that make people feel good, that make the base feel good because -- look, i've

talked to the voters. they're frustrated. they want to send a message. if that's what they end up doing, you think it costs the republican party in the fall? >> look at this way. donald trump is on the stage with hillary clinton. do you think she could challenge whether or not he has a realistic plan to deport 11 million people including their legal citizen children? do you think it may come up in that debate, how do you deport someone who is a u.s. system because their parents are illegal? how do you do all the things that are going to make us great without telling us? you tell me you have a plan for syria, but you don't want to give it away. well, at the end of the day, i think a lot of this is going to catch up with us. if you're going to be in the ring with hillary clinton, you better have your act together. and if you say things, you better be able to produce the product for the american people and say things that can be done. that can be accomplished. >> are you concerned republican primary voters aren't demanding it enough? >> there's a minority of republican primary voters that are extremely frustrated, i get it. maybe a majority, a vast

majority. i'm frustrated too. what's wrong with washington? is it me or ted cruz? am i the problem? is the problem in washington that i'm working with democrats too much and that we're trying to do too much together? or is the problem in washington that there are people on the left and right who always say no? that's what this election is going to come down to. if you want to beat hillary clinton, you better have a foreign policy that you can articulate. if you're going to talk about immigration, you should not drive a deeper wedge between us in the hispanic community. we have a problem dem graphically, donald trump is building a wall between us and the hispanic community that we may never be able to get over because most illegal immigrants are not rapists and drug dealers. our problems in 2012 are being made exponentially worse in 2016 thus far. >> senator lindsey graham, happy warrior, stay safe and once again, you come from new hampshire, i assume you'll be voting and paying -- well,

you'll be paying federal taxes from there soon. >> yeah, i'm going to get a tax deduction if i stay up here one day longer. just kidding. >> thank you, senator. >> thanks, buddy. up next, the who, what, when, where and why and whose endorsement of bernie sanders will pack an actual punch? and carly fiorina defenders her tax plan, how that tactic is playing with some conservatives. wow... yeah! okay... guys, i'll be writing a new language for machines so planes, trains, even hospitals can work better. oh! sorry, i was trying to put it away... got it on the cake. so you're going to work on a train? not on a train...on "trains"! you're not gonna develop stuff anymore? no i am... do you know what ge is? tcount on someone's kid mistaking me for santa. i'm so sorry. come on sweetie. it's okay. and knowing right when my packages arrive.

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time for the ws. first up the who. mma superstar ronda rousey. in an interview with maxim, the ultimate fighting champion says she's endorsing bernie sanders for president because of his stance on campaign finance. rousey also says she would vote for a third-party candidate if sanders fails to get the nomination. she said she voted in 2012 for roseanne barr. now to the what. good news for jimmy carter. according to the carter center, this afternoon the former president is responding very

well to cancer treatment. recent tests show no evidence of any new malig nancys. our best wishes to the former president. we're all grateful for this positive news. turning to the where. it's on your kids' soccer field. there's a new concussion protocol which bans headers for children aged 10 and under. and it limits them for children ages 11 to 13. this after a class action lawsuit in california that sought rules changes to prevent head injuries. to the when. it's election day 2016. when single payer health care will be on the ballot in colorado. a petition with over 150,000 signatures was approved yesterday and it sends the initiative to next year's ballot. it calls for a 10% payroll tax to raise $25 billion a year to fund colorado care which would let residents choose their own health care provider which is paid for by the government. super pacs, start your engines. and now the why. the center for public integrity

is out with its state transparency and accountability report and they issued some letter grades. not a lot of integrity to go around. 11 states received an f rating. 16 received a d minus. alaska got the highest mark. ready for this? a c! as for the why, the cpi ranked states in 13 categories, everything from public access to information, lobbying disclo disclosure, judicial accountability, the mechanisms government has to root out corruption and be transparent with the public. corruption complaints are plenty heard on in washington, but apparently they thrive at the state level too. c is the best we can do of any state. i guess congratulations or something to alaska. up next, the how. how congress is keeping gitmo open and how the president is still trying to make good on a campaign promise that he made and reaffirmed on his first day

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so today the senate passed a $607 billion defense authorization bill that includes a way to block the president from shutting down the prison at gaunt mo bay. the bill prohibits the obama administration from transferring detainees to the united states or using a prison in the states to house detainees. now to the president's desk, where the president is expected to sign it. white house secretary josh earnest still believes closing the prison is, quote, a national security priority. it's something president obama has said from the time he was a priority. >> last point, guantanamo, that's easy. close it down, restore habeus

corp us, say no to renditions, no to wireless wire taps. >> we will then provide the process whereby guantanamo will be closed no later than one more from now. >> i have ordered the closing of the detention center at guantanamo bay and will seek swift and certain justice for captured terrorists. >> it's not sustainable. the notion that we're going to continue to keep over a hundred individuals in a no-man's land in perpetuity. >> with the afghan war ending, this needs to be the year congress lifts the restrictions on detainee prisoners and we close the prison at guantanamo bay. >> we've worked to cut the population at gitmo in half. now it's time to finish the job. i will not relent in my determination to shut it down. >> joining me now, former white house counsel greg craig, who was at the center of the

administration's first efforts to close guantanamo. welcome to "meet the press daily." >> hi, chuck. >> let me just throw a few numbers out. 112 prisoners remain in gitmo. 53 have been approved for transfer, but we don't know where yet. we spent about $4 million per detainee in 2013. you are the presidency's lawyer. where do you believe he has the authority, not just to shut down the prison. i understand that. but does he have the authority to move these folks to a new facility? >> chuck, we're a nation at war and he's the commander in chief. when the nation is at war, the commander in chief is at the height of his powers under the constitution to make decisions about how to conduct that war. he has concluded, i think correctly, that keeping guantanamo open and keeping

those detainees here, damages our ability to conduct that war. it threatens our relationships with our allies. it helps recruiting for terrorists. and it's too costly. those are decisions that are at the core of a commander in chief's power under the constitution. and i think he has the authority on his own to close guantanamo and bring the detainees wherever he wants within the united states in a military facility. as commander in chief, he has that authority, i think he should use it. >> it's interesting, you say, let me pause you there. you say, we're a nation at war. so what you're saying is because that war authorization that was passed in 2001, that war authorization puts us as a nation at war and gives him extra powers to do that, that if the war authorization had not been passed he would not be able to do this? >> no, actually, i think he has a great deal of power regardless -- >> but you said nation at war

and, i thought maybe is this something else here that you believe constitutionally he has at his disposal? >> the fact is that a commander in chief guiding the nation when it's at war and it's quite clear that all sides of the spectrum believe we're still at war with al qaeda and its affiliates. and remember, chuck, that the legal bafers for us keeping these people in detention is the fact that we're at war. there are law of war detainees and our authority to keep them in these facilities, whether it's in guantanamo or some other military facility is based on the fact that we are at war, and he is authorized under the use of military force resolution to do that. >> do you believe we have a facility now, without having to make changes to it, in the united states somewhere, on a military base, that could house these detainees? >> well, i'm not an expert on the security arrangements that would be required. i do believe that there are many facilities on military bases in the united states that could

accommodate -- we're talking really here about 59. since 53 have been designated as transferrable. they should be transferred promptly during the next year or so. that means we're talking about bringing 59 detainee into the united states and i have no doubt. by the way, when we arrived in the white house in 2009, there was a plan on secretary gates' desk to close guantanamo, that identified two facilities that they were thinking about. >> colorado was a super max, correct? was one of them? >> no, no. they were looking at united states military facilities. ft. lefen worth and charleston. >> the minute americans find out where detainees are going to be sent, you and i both know there's a word in politics called nimby, not in my backyard. and that's a powerful political argument. >> well, i understand that there's a political cost to pay. by the way, back in 2008, 2009,

if you recall, chuck, it was unanimous that we should close guantana guantanamo. president bush, senator mccain and senator obama. so then the real question is, to what extent is it still in our interest to do that and that the conduct of the war is advanced by doing it? i think it's the core of his powers as commander in chief and he should use them the country will get over it. this is not a real security threat. i'm confident that the military of the united states will be able to replicate the facilities that are in guantanamo and keep the nation safe from these detainees. >> so do you believe he's probably going to test this constitutional authority that you believe he has? >> well, from day one, i think he's always wanted to do it with congress. from day one, he's tried to work with congress and for some reason, i think it's the nimby issue, that congress has made it more and more difficult.

i think he still harbors the hope that he'll be able to work with congress in a partnership that over the next few months they'll be able to do it together. >> but if you were his counsel? >> i would say, you can do this, mr. president. you have the constitutional authority to do it. and no one will doubt the fact that it's at the core of your ability to exercise your powers as commander in chief. >> and if you're hillary clinton, when do you want him to test this premise politically? i'm playing this out and you've been around a while. you know how politics works. >> i will tell you that hillary clinton throughout that first period of time, support the closing of gaunt mo and all the various plans we had for doing it and worked hard herself to do that. she was in a position of enormous influence and ability and did a great job with transferring these detainees all over the world. >> greg craig, i'm going to leave it there. if you missed mr. craig's op-ed, it was in "the washington post" about five days ago where he makes the argument that the

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they've welcome well known, at least of late, as a thorn in the side of congressional republican leadership teams. now it's taking its mission as enforcer of principles to the presidential race. heritage is out with his presidential platform review, a 50-page critique of the candidates and their economic

proposals. but what do they do with carly fiorina who defended her lack of a plan on "meet the press." >> how often do politicians put on the detailed plans? how often do they get enacted? never. that's the problem, politicians put out detailed plans for all kinds of things that never happens. >> mike, welcome to "meet the press daily." >> thanks for having me, chuck. >> answer me that first question. how are you able to critique carly fiorina who hasn't put anything on paper? >> i think carly's said a number of things to taxes that give us a lot of confidence. she said she'd lower every rate and close every loophole. she said importantly she's not going to get caught up on the idea of revenue neutrality and that returning money to the american people is a good thing. all that said, i disagree with what she said on her show on sunday. politicians should put out plans. voters have more leverage before

the election rather than after. we'd love all these people to say what they're going to do and then we want to hold them accountable. >> you need something to look at to see how you get down to three pages. >> that'spages. >> that's exactly right. and she should put out those details. but my concerns with carly are more along the lines of someone who's here in 2009 was hesitant to criticize obamacare, saying the devil's in the details. the devil wasn't in the details with obamacare, it was in the fundamental philosophical construct. >> let's go to carson and trump. >> i think donald trump came out with a good tax plan. it's one of the areas that i think his ideas have been stronger. his past record isn't quite as strong, but i think with trump, the reason that a lot of people are attracted to him is admirable. it's that he recognizes that washington, d.c. is a cesspool, it's broken and needs major change. i think on a number of issues out there, you look at something right now like eminent domain of what he's saying, that's a

fundamental philosophical question for conservatives. do you understand that private property shouldn't be taken away from people so somebody can build a casino. similarly on ben carson, there's somebody who needs to put out a lot more detail than he has. he's had pretty much every position you can have on the question of amnesty. he currently says he's open to a guest worker program, but has pretty much refused to give details on that. people want to know what the details of his guest worker program are. >> so if i said to you, after reading your report, mike, it seems to me, there's one candidate that stands above the rest as far as heritage action is concerned, and that's ted cruz, would you say i was wrong? >> you'd read what's in your heart into that, but when we look at ted, he's somebody who on pretty much all the issues has fought conservative fight. i think his biggest detractors will say, we agree with ted on everything, we just disagree with his tactics. when you look at ted's plans, they're good plans, marco rubio's plans are fantastic. bobby jindal has taken the fight

for skrconservative values. there are a lot of candidates. this is a gop that's fighting, they have good policies and provide opportunity for all americans and get at the favoritism of washington, d.c. >> you, between cruz and rubio, does immigration seem to be your differentiator between those two? is that fair to say? >> that's one point of differentiation. marco rubio is one person who has spent more time trying to come up with innovative solutions than anybody. and one of the untold stories is all of the policy innovation going on in the united states senate right now is going from so-called tea party senators, marco rubio, ted cruz, mark lee, ben sass. you kind of go through it. if you were opposed by the government, you were in it. >> pre-debate night, mike, thanks for coming on. >> up next, it's "the lid." we'll go back to previewing all things. you had some blocks and you had major thoroughfares and corridors that were just totally pitch black. those things had to change.

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time for "the lid." the first test of how serious outsider candidates were, we're going to be in the presidential election, came down to today. delegate blocking and tackling. ben carson, marco rubio, ted cruz, and donald trump all end up with fairly full slates of delegates, as well as in alabama. but look who doesn't have a full slate in alabama. jeb bush is one that doesn't have a full slate. they have somebody in every congressional district, but don't have all of them filled out. john kasich doesn't, rand paul doesn't. you can see the list, carly fiorina, et cetera. all of them did not do full delegate slates.

this is all part of the blocking and tackling when it comes to actually being a presidential primary. so what does that tell us? if ben carson and marco rubio were actually the only two to do the fully full slate and nobody else in the field could do that, what can we learn from that? let's bring in the folks from "the lid" for today's lid. sar sar sar sarah faggen, and beth fouhy with msnbc. sarah, let me ask you, how does, of all people, jeb bush not get a full slate of delegates in the state of alabama? >> well, i think it's indicative of the challenges he's had the last few weeks. it's been a very tough time in that campaign. they're regrouping and need to have a big debate tonight. i also think, chuck, that they have relied pretty heavily on volunteer activities in these states. that is working for ben carson, this is working for donald trump, because they have been on

top in the polls. it's much tougher when you run into these problems, that's when, you know, the volunteers sometimes head for the hills. and that may have been what happened. i would say, also, though, that the rnc has indicated that as long as he gets a delegate in each congressional district, it won't matter for him, should he do well in the an primary, he would be able to get the full slate. so it may not really matter, but it definitely is a good talking point when you're heading into these sort of crucial election times. >> you know, beth fouhy, this is, to me, always been, we were all going to use these to measure carson and trump. and as sarah pointed out, the folks that are showing up to their rallies are also volunteering. they're also doing these petition signatures. they're willing to be delegates. is it about time for us to all stop saying, well, we know trump and carson eventually fall? >> i think it was time for us to do that while ago, chuck. this is the greatest example of how these guys aren't exactly

the outsider candidates or the fringe candidates that some people have called them. this is very hard work, as you know, to get delegates on to these slates. and it requires a lot of organizational muster, it requires money. they know the rules. these candidates know the rules. they know that they have to play the long game and this is the way they need to do it. they're not just flashes in the pan. we're seeing that over and over again. >> sarah, i want to go back to the debate tonight. you brought up the fact that jeb needs to have a good night. does going after rubirubio, sho that be part of his plan, or given all the news that's out there today, should that be something they ought to skip tonight? >> well, i think he needs to either pick a -- he needs to pick a strategy. he either needs to go after rubio and go after him aggressively and be consistent about it or say, i'm not going to engage in that type of discussion with marco and nod. so to me it matters less whether he does or doesn't, but needs to pick a strategy and stick with it. >> go all in. >> correct. >> i think the vacillation has not helped him.

i think he longer term needs to start thinking about two things. one, he needs to start put a little color around his wonkishness. this is something governor rick snyder did very well in michigan. he went into the governorship as one tough nerd. jeb bush is a wonk and he needs to make that an asset. >> very quickly, beth fouhy, should trump go after carson? we don't know if he will, but should he? very fast, five seconds. >> i think he will. he's been going after carson, no reason why he won't tonight. >> we'll be back tomorrow with more "mtp daily." steve kornacki picks up our coverage literally right now. right now on msnbc, fighting for the spotlight. republicans get ready to take the stage for tonight's big debate in milwaukee. what