not helped him. i think he longer term needs to start thinking about two things. one, he needs to start put a little color around his wonkishness. this is something governor rick snyder did very well in michigan. he went into the governorship as one tough nerd. jeb bush is a wonk and he needs to make that an asset. >> very quickly, beth fouhy, should trump go after carson? we don't know if he will, but should he? very fast, five seconds. >> i think he will. he's been going after carson, no reason why he won't tonight. >> we'll be back tomorrow with more "mtp daily." steve kornacki picks up our coverage literally right now. right now on msnbc, fighting for the spotlight. republicans get ready to take the stage for tonight's big debate in milwaukee. what each candidate needs to do

to make a mark. also, food fight. minimum wage workers strike in cities across the country, demanding $15 an hour. we will talk to presidential candidate, bernie sanders about that issue, and what exactly he means when he says he and hillary clinton disagree on, quote, virtually everything. also, cold war heats up again. a shocking report accuses russia of a widespread state-sponsored doping program using secret agents in a moscow lab. we will have details on that. hello, everyone. good evening. i'm steve kornacki. and we come to you tonight. we are just three hours away now from the fourth republican presidential debate. the press has descended on wisconsin's largest city, as eight republican candidates make their final preparations before meeting on tonight's big stage. this is a debate that will be watched by millions across the country and the stakes for many of those candidates are higher

than ever now, in iowa and new hampshire, each less than 100 days away. we'll go live to milwaukee in just a minute. but first, to help set the stage for tonight's main event, we'll take a look at the big board. what some of the big names on that stage and one of the biggest names not on it need to do to have good nights. let's start with ben carson, who is at or near the top of the polls right now. we're saying his goal tonight, be ready to go deep. what do we mean by that? all of the attention in the run-up to tonight's debate is about the possibility of attacks on carson over his personal story, his background, all those questions that have been raised. will his opponents, will donald trump, will others go after him on that? will the moderators grill him on that? but we think the biggest question with ben carson tonight, what if the moderators decide they don't want to touch that the all? what after that hostile reaction from so many republicans to the idea of gotcha questions, the moderators do what they say they're going to do, they're

going to stick to substantive policy questions about the economy. if that's the case, ben carson doesn't need to be ready about the questions about his background, he needs to be ready for detailed questions about taxes, about the deficit, about spending, things he has not necessarily been comfortable going deep on. he'll have to do that tonight potentially. that's what ben carson should be looking out for. how about donald trump, the author of the art of the deal, we say, the art of the attack. so if donald trump does show up at this debate tonight intent on attacking ben carson, what will that sound like? well, trump has been previewing it in speeches before the debate. let's give you a taste of what donald trump has been saying about ben carson, when ben carson is not standing next to him. >> if you try and hit your mother over the head with a hammer, your poll numbers go up. you stab somebody, and the newspapers say you didn't do it! and you said, yes, i did! i did it!

no, you didn't! yes, i did! i stabbed him and it hit the belt. and they said, you didn't do it! if they said i didn't do it, i would be so happy. this is the only election in history where you're better off if you stabbed somebody. what are we coming to? >> now, obviously, a lot of suspense, if donald trump will say any of that to ben carson's face tonight. but if he does, this is a tricky one, potentially, for the donald. remember, east going after jeb bush, he's going after rand paul, he's had a lot of success doing that. but ben carson is different or potentially different than those other candidates he's attacked, because ben carson is beloved by such a core of the republican base. every time you look at poll numbers about personal favorability, popularity, how much republicans like and respect each candidate, ben carson is always way at the top of that list. so how will it look if donald trump shows up tonight, trying to go after him?

he has a reputation, maybe sometimes, as a bit of a bully. could he be too much of a bully going after ben carson? that's what donald trump has to be careful about tonight. jeb bush, this one is easy. we say, no apologies this time. the last debate, he walked away from it apologizing to his donors, promising to do better. he's got to do better tonight. he is really running out of chances here. how about marco rubio? we say, keep hitting doubles. well, he probably had a home run moment in the last debate, when he and jeb bush squared off over his voting record in the senate. but the first debates have been solid performances each time from rubio, each time winning attention and winning notice from a few more republicans and a few more media people. you keep doing that and you end up with a good batting average. ted cruz, we say the key for him is to think before bouncing. what do we mean by that? he went after the moderators to great effect in that debate a couple weeks ago, but tonight this is the fox business network. a lot of republicans are more

comfortable with shows that are on fox or on fox business. if ted cruz wants to replicate that moment and go after the moderators, maybe he should be careful, might get a different reception from republicans. and chris christie, one candidate who's not on the big sta stage tonight, chris christie did not have high enough polling numbers. carly fiorina went from the kid's table to the main stage with a great first debate performance. back in august in cleveland. chris christie will have a chance to do that tonight. let's see if he can pull it off. now, as we promised you, we're going to go live to the ground in milwaukee. msnbc political correspondent, kasie hunt is live for us out there tonight. kasie, a lot of story lines here. we have carson's people saying they're going to be ready for attacks. we have trump attacking him on the campaign trail. what do you expect when those two show up tonight?

>> reporter: i think we'll see some fireworks there. i think the question will be, whether or not it's effective for trump to go after carson. you hit on this a little bit. he is, in many ways, much harder to go after, and carson is playing this media card, right? he's saying, look at these vicious lies that the media are telling about my background. is trump going to go and make these attacks that carson could then argue are the same as those that are coming across in the media? i think that's risky territory for trump to be in. >> and what about jeb bush? i mean, this is the second time we've gone into a debate saying, boy, jeb bush really has to show something tonight. what are we expecting to see from him? is it an attack dog, jeb bush, or is it something else? >> i think it's something else, steve. i think the thing that they came away learning from the last one is that jeb follows -- jeb bush follows the rules too much. their perception is, he didn't jump in aggressively enough. he let the moderators talk over him, whereas to other candidates simply blew through that. and they had more success than he did. now, if the moderators actually stick to what the rnc is saying they are going to do and give

the candidates more space, more time, and keep it strictly focused on policy, the debate overall is going to go differently for jeb bush. and they think that he is strongest on these policy subjects. and he is, when he's out on the trail, he's strongest when's down in the weeds talking about policy. we'll see more of that and less of what he tried to do last time in attacking marco rubio. >> kasie hunt out there for the main event in milwaukee. thanks for joining us. now i want to bring in adolfo franco and sabrina sediqi. adolfo, let me start with you. jeb bush, is he down to his last out here? >> i think this is a make-or-break event for governor bush. i think that's the conventional thinking. i think, fortunately, for him, he is the candidate that has done two things. he is the candidate that's talked about the future, laid out a number of plans. i think more so, has been the most specific and has had an economic plan that, i think, has been discussed in more detail.

unfortunately, this has not received a lot of media coverage. tonight's format might afford him that opportunity, especially if the questions are, indeed, focused on the economy and not personalities or these barbs that we've seen in the past. so it might be an opportunity for jeb bush, but it's really make or break for him tonight. >> and sabrina, i want to talk a little bit about ben carson. i mentioned earlier, the signals his camp has been sending out about being ready to attack tonight, to fight back if it comes to it. i want to play an interview his press secretary gave on our air waves earlier today with tamron hall. let's listen to it and i want to ask you about it. >> dr. carson is a man who believes in civility and respect. but at the same time, people should not mistake that type of attitude for weakness. if someone were to attack him, and particularly if they were to do so in an unfair manner, dr. carson will respond. >> i don't know if you call it a threat or a promise or a vow, but ben carson, who has been probably the most mild-mannered

presidential candidate i think any of us have seen, is he capable of the kind of, the kind of, i don't know, outbursts that she's describing there? >> i think they're trying to at least get across the point, certainly anticipating attacks from donald trump, for example, that ben carson isn't just going to stand on the stage and take it, that he will hit back. i do think, though, that as kasie was alluding to just earlier, a lot of ben carson's message is focusing on hitting back at the media. he really, you know, has been successful in taking any attack that's been directed toward him, for example, recently about his personal biography, whether or not he was offered a full scholarship at west point, and pairing that into an attack on the media, pointing out media bias. so i think you'll expect to see a lot more of that in terms of ben carson's strategy. and if you remember, that's something that really played to the advantage of ted cruz in the last debate, to the extent that after going after the so-called liberal media, ted cruise was

able to raise $1 million in the following 24 hours. i would expect to see a similar line from carson. >> adolfo, i think that's the biggest wild card tonight. you know a lot of these candidates, maybe all of these candidates are showing up, looking for signs of gotcha questions, looking for openings to say the media is out to get them, like they were a couple of weeks ago. what effect do you think that will have on those moderators tonight and the kinds of questions they ask? >> i think there might be a little bit of baiting o of that. but i hope our candidates, all of that, get beyond that. because as a republican, we need to win over independents and democrats, frankly, to win the general election, and media bashing is not going to get us there. with respect to dr. carson, specifically, either he was offered a scholarship or he wasn't. and i think it's absolutely appropriate to ask -- that's not a gotcha question. >> adolfo, do you think they're going to, though? or do you think given all the criticism republicans threw at that last debate, that these moderators will look at it and say, that's a gotcha question, not going to go there.

>> i think the question will be asked by one of the moderators or one of the candidates. it's too much of a story. of course, donald trump has been talking about it over the weekend. and to be fair, i think the american people need to know someone has embellished their resume. you know, joe biden dropped out of the race for president over plagiarism 25 years ago. he made some misstatements. i don't know if he was offered a scholarship or not, but it's a fair question. i cannot imagine such a newsworthy item to be ignored this evening. >> all right. we will see soon enough if that issue is raised or not. adolfo franco, sabrina siddiqui, thank you both for joining us. coming up, chris christie joins the happy hour debate tonight. what can the new jersey governor do to shine and make it back to the main stage? plus, ben carson's credibility called into question. will the gop co-front runners' past be up for discussion during tonight's debate? as we say, that's the million-dollar question hanging over this. but first, democratic presidential candidate bernie

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>> when do we want it? >> now! >> if we don't get it? >> shut it down! >> fast food workers in milwaukee, that is the city that is hosting tonight's republican presidential debate, fast food workers there rallied for a $15-an-hour minimum wage and they will keep pushing tonight, marching to the actual site of that debate. and they are not alone. minimum wage workers across 270 cities today, including houston, brooklyn, and washington, d.c. and many others held rallies demanding higher pay. one group met at the foot of the u.s. capitol. and democratic presidential candidate bernie sanders was there to speak to that crowd. and senator bernie sanders joins me now from washington, d.c. senator, thank you for being here tonight. well, let me start with maybe a broader question, because the timing on this is interesting with the republicans debating tonight, this is an issue -- minimum wage -- we hear come up on the democratic side all the time. we barely, if ever, hear it mentioned in republican debates.

the way politics works today, if you're going to get a higher minimum wage, you'll need republicans to sign off on it. what is the key that has been missing for all these years now to get some republicans to move on this issue? >> well, i think the republicans, in some cases, have been talking about the minimum wage. their view is that we should abolish the concept of the minimum wage in high unemployment areas, minimum wage can go down to $3 or $4 or $5 an hour. what you are seeing today in the fight for $15 is really extraordinary. one of the great economic crises that we are facing is millions of workers are working for wages totally inadequate. and as a result of this movement, of these strikes, of this grassroots effort, you're seeing cities like los angeles, san francisco, new york state, other communities around america finally recognizing that if somebody works 40 hours a week in america, they've got to have a living wage. 15 bucks an hour over the next few years. now, in terms of the republicans, we will defeat the republicans the way we always do.

and that is, when millions of people begin to stand up and make it clear that her going to get involved in the political process, they are going to vote, and that they demand that congress does, with overwhelming majority of americans want to see happen. poll after poll, democrats, republicans, independents, raise the minimum wage. so we're going to continue to put pressure on republicans. we're going to win this fight. >> all right, so right now the federal minimum wage sits at 7:25 an hour. president obama has called for a $10.10 minimum wage. you're saying $15. hillary clinton is saying more than what the president is, less than what you are. she's saying $12 an hour. let me play her explanation from that. this is from last week in iowa. let's listen to that. >> in looking at this and talking with a lot of economists and a lot of members of congress, i favor a $12-an-hour minimum wage, at the federal level. and the reason is that would be -- that would be setting it

at a level that would be equivalent to the point in our history where the minimum wage was at its highest in inflation-adjusted terms, that was in 1968. i do, however, believe, that other communities that want to go higher than $15 should be able to do so. >> and in defending the $12-an-hour plan, hillary clinton also recently said, she said, "we need to remember that the cost of living is different in manhattan than in little rock and many other places." so senator, i wonder if you can grapple with those arguments she's making as to why $15 is too much. she says, the highest of inflation-adjusted minimum wage in history would be $12. and number two, cost of living issues. in a place like manhattan, maybe $15 make sense, in a place like little rock, maybe not. >> well, this is what i think. i think what the secretary is not looking at is that, martin, in the last 30 years, there has been a massive transfer of

wealth from the middle class and the working class to the top one-tenth of 1%. and i think what she's ignoring is that right now we have about 47 million people living in poverty, including many people who are working full-time. the way i look at it is, what constitutes a living wage? and i think moving to $15 an hour, not tomorrow, but over the next few years, is what is appropriate. again, if you are working in the united states of america, it's not a radical idea to say that you should not be living in poverty after working 40 hours. so i think $15 an hour over the next few years, which is what seattle has done, what los angeles has done, what san francisco has done, and by the way, i think in the secretary's home state of new york, as i understand it, governor cuomo is moving towards a $15-an-hour minimum wage. i support that. >> and so there is some daylight there between you and hillary clinton on the subject of minimum wage. you also made some news a couple days ago. you told "the boston globe"

editorial board that you disagree with hillary clinton, quote, on virtually everything. she was in new hampshire yesterday, filing her paperwork. she was asked about that comment from you. i want to play your response and get you to weigh in. this is what she said about what you said. >> oh, no, of course not. no. look, i think we're in the political season and people, you know, they say all sorts of things. but, of course not. i mean, that would mean he doesn't agree with me on equal pay for equal work, he doesn't agree with me on paid family leave, he doesn't agree with me on making sure incomes rise, including raising the minimum wage. that's obviously not the case. >> so, senator, she's saying that you're making a very overstated claim there. what do you say to that? >> well, look, here's what -- what i talk about virtually everything, what i am talking about is just the example here. i believe we should raise the minimum wage, of course i do. i believe it should be $15 an hour. i believe that the united states should join the rest of the industrialized world in guaranteeing health care to all

people. the secretary does not believe in that. i believe that we have got to take on wall street and break up the largest financial institutions and reestablish glass-steagall. that's not the secretary's position. i believe that, essentially, the key issue facing this country today is the collapse of the american middle class and our need to bring forth a political revolution involving millions of people to take on the billionaire class and the trend toward oligarchy that we are seeing both economically, where so few have so much and politically, whereas as a result of citizens united, billionaires now control the political process. secretary clinton has a super pac, i do not have a super pac. so i think on many of the key issues, in terms of our tone, in terms of our intensity, in terms of where we need to see this country going, we do have very fundamental differences of opinion. >> all right. senator bernie sanders from

vermont, thank you for your time tonight. >> thank you. >> all right. still to come, why hillary clinton and jeb bush are taking aim at surging republican candidate marco rubio. but first, ben carson under the media's microscope. will his past be fair game in tonight's debate? stay with us.

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>> listen, um, i don't get to set the rules. i don't get to make those decisions. i'll be in milwaukee tomorrow night and i'll be on a stage where i'm going to get a lot more time to talk. >> so what does christie need to do to stand out and climb his way up in the polls and back on to that stage? joining me now is david catny, senior political writer for "u.s. news & world report." thanks for joining us. look, carly fiorina did it before, went from the so-called kids' table to the main stage. christie's been on the closest thing he's been to on a roll the last few weeks minus this news about the debate stage. that viral video on addiction up there in new hampshire. do you see a pathway for him to be back on the big stage the next time they debate? >> sure, obviously. i mean, he's going to be able to have a moment, like carly fiorina was. there's only going to be four of them on that early stage. so i think he could easily have a moment, have an exchange that sort of allows him to sort of reignite his mavericky,

straight-talking persona that sort of made him a contender, going all the way back to 2012. the question on what issue will it be? well, i could see it being over social security, where him and governor mike huckabee have tangled before, about how to reform that program. christie going a bit on a ledge, on there, saying that he would raise the retirement age and reel in some of the benefits for wealthier americans, but that could be a potential opportunity for him to sort of distinguish himself on that first stage. >> i want to play more of christie sort of responding to the seclusion from the big stage. he's saying, it has given him an infusion of campaign money. let's listen to that. >> we've raised more money. people really are angry that i was excluded from the main stage and they've been sending in contributions online saying, you know, we want to give you some money now, because we feel like this isn't fair to you. >> and you know, the interesting thing here is if you look at the early state poll up there in new hampshire, there was one that came out last week that put him at 8%. he'd been at 2% in that same

poll a few months ago. we put it up on your screen. so he's quadrupled his support in new hampshire. i know that was the mccain strategy all those years ago, to bank-on new hampshire, to get back in the race nationally. is that still a viable strategy in this day and age? >> i think, you know, that is the big question of this cycle. whether it's a nationalized campaign, where trump and carson are going to less into the early states, spending more time going all over the country, doing national, big rallies versus the grind it out on the ground. you could say bobby jindal is sort of doing the same thing. he was up to 6% yesterday in iowa. if you used iowa polling, he might be on that main stage and not in the undercard debate, but this is the -- and i think this is probably going to be something that's re-evaluated for the 2020 cycle. what polling is used as far as debate criteria goes, because you have a big divide about whether this is taking, this national platform of a debate is taking it away from the early

states in new hampshire and iowa. >> of course, maybe come 2020, we'll have a much more manageable field of candidates. maybe there'll only be ten there or something. we'll see. david, thank you. coming up, we are just hours away from the fourth republican presidential debate. the big question tonight, is ben carson's life story off-limits? and with new reports of state-sponsored doping programs in russia, is this the reemergence of the cold war in sports? plus, we will take a look at which candidate hillary clinton and jeb bush both have their targets set on. we live in a world of mobile technology, but it is not the device that is mobile, it is you. real madrid have about 450 million fans. we're trying to give them all the feeling of being at the stadium. the microsoft cloud gives us the scalability to communicate exactly the content that people want to see. it will help people connect to their

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nissan. innovation that excites. center stage for dr. ben carson. the new co-front runner in the republican race will be smack dab in the middle of it all tonight, alongside donald trump at that big debate out in

milwaukee. carson also heading into tonight, facing criticism over stories he told about his past. the carson's campaign is not missing an opportunity to fundraise off of all of the controversy. in an e-mail to supporters today, saying, quote, the media's double standard is incredible, but even worse is their viciousness and blatant disregard for the truth. the media is now going off the rails and we need the resources to fight back 24/7. carson's rivals are taking note, too. >> i heard him this morning say, he's been more scrutinized than anybody in this race. that's unfair. is he kidding? >> i'm thinking, pal, you ain't seen nothing yet. >> if you try to hit your mother over the head with a hammer, your poll numbers go up. i never saw anything like it. >> all of this coming with carson locked in a statistical tie with donald trump, atop the republican polls. so can the media scrutiny boost him over the top? let me bring in political strategist, angela ry, and host of the majority report and ring

of fire radio, sam seder. so let me start with a basic question, what you guys are expecting tonight. i think this is the million-dollar question. you saw the candidates gang up and attack the moderators in that debate a couple weeks ago. you know fox business has now been touting this as a different kind of debate. we're not going to do gotcha questions, we're going to make this substantiative. is anybody going to bring any of this up about carson's past tonight? what do you think? >> at least donald trump will. and the one reason i say that is because he's just crazy enough to do it. he doesn't have any qualms about bringing up anybody's stuff. we saw him attack in the first debate, we saw him come at jeb. he's talked about ben carson being low-energy and talked about him being dishonest. he's gone so far to call ben carson pathological. he has a pathological disease. but he's also said it's not curable. so i think that donald trump will, for sure, because he's got nothing to lose. >> let's play it out. if that happens, what's the

response up there on stage? does ted cruz jump in and say, i want to stand up for my friend, ben carson? does the moderators say, excuse me, sir, this is a substantiate debate? >> i think trump will do that. i think he may throw off a zinger. i think if anybody is going to be the focus tonight of attacks, it's going to be rubio. i think that dynamic will be one. >> from jeb bush, you think -- >> no, actually, i think we're going to see jeb bush begin his exit strategy, frankly. i think jeb bush has got to walk away from this race. i think he's got to return to where he was at the beginning, which is, if the republican party has walked away from me, i'm willing to just say good-bye. and i think he needs to do that, because he's actually tainted the bush name more than it was when he started the race. which is pretty impressive, in a way. and i think he's got to be thinking about his son, frankly, george p., and his political future nationally. so i think we'll see people go after rubio. i think bush is going to stay out of it. i think he's going to return to the sort of the jeb bush who thought he was entering in the

race, without getting beat up by donald trump. and i think we're going to see cruz start to go after rubio as well. i think we're going to start to see people start to make that you are move a little bit. >> it's just, it's such an interesting dynamic, angela, because the way the debate is run, the way, you know, the types of questions that are asked, the way they're asked is now as much a point of contention as the actual issues that are being discussed. >> i think now is absolutely the time, you brought up a great point. right after this, we're going into the holiday season. and people are going to start checking out. you brought up ted cruz. i absolutely think ted cruz will attack marco rubio. he's got everything to gain from an evangelical christian standpoint and snatching some of that back from marco rubio, as he continues to increase in the polls. jeb bush cannot be counted out this early. if for no other reason, it's for the money. if for no reason, it's because -- in meacham's new book, which i cannot wait to read, there's a piece in the book where jeb bush tells his father that it wasn't fair.

that he's not considered vice president. and in this particular era, what's interesting about that to me is it demonstrates a different type of bush. george h.w. tells him back, you don't know what you're talking about, nobody owes us anything. jeb bush has run this campaign like america owes us something. he is not, absolutely not -- >> well, donald trump has played into that sense, among rank and file republican voters, just brilliantly, i think. and it's been devastating for jeb bush. you're talking about a potential exit tragedy for jeb bush. i think back to his father, against bob dole in 1988. his brother, george w. against john mccain in 2000. the lesson of those two campaigns is they got dirty to win. and jeb bush is in a situation right now where he's got to make that choice. do i want to take one more shot at this, where i go after rubio with everything i have. i spend against him and go after all these people who are in my way? >> i think the problem is, he's gotten a lot of pushback from some of the closest sort of supporters of his in florida from that tactic.

and so, i think jeb has also got -- frankly, i think he's got to worry about what he's doing for his son. i mean, i really do think that really carries a lot of rate in that family, right? there's generations of bushes who have promoted their sons along the line. and if he goes and he does some type of scorched earth policy, i mean, let's remember, this guy is in the single digits. at one point he'll wake up and smell the coffee a little bit. and if he gets too big, he still has donald trump, who plays with him like a cat's toy, right? and so, i mean, i think at one point, it's going to become clear to jeb, if he's going to go anywhere, he's going to go out, sort of in a more patrician way. >> and angela, we have a few seconds left, but carson, i want to get back to him for a second. if anybody comes after moderator trump, anybody, how do you think he's going to handle it? >> i am hoping that ben carson becomes unhinged like we've seen him do with the press over the last couple of days. i think that ben carson cannot handle this type of pressure.

and he is foolish if he thinks that the pressure decreases in the oval office. >> angela ry and sam seder, thank you both for joining us. coming up next, doping for gold. new reports this week that have rocked the sports world and what do hillary clinton and jeb bush have in common? stick around and we'll tell you. you see something moving off the shelves and your first thought is to investigate the company. you are type e*. yes, investment opportunities can be anywhere... or not. but you know the difference. e*trade's bar code scanner. shorten the distance between intuition and action. e*trade opportunity is everywhere.

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report that accuses russia of widespread cheating. the agency says the country's track and field contenders should be banned from future competitions, casting doubt on russia's role in next year's rio olympics. nbc's keir simmons has more. >> reporter: according to a report that reads like a cold war spy thriller, russian secret agents and a mysterious laboratory were used for state-sanctioned doping. across the globe, athletes are outraged. american eleaseio montano who finished fifth in the 800 meters. >> it's about you putting out an honest effort, honest time and energy, and emotion and being cheated out of it, it's -- you can't -- you can't ever get back those moment moments. >> reporter: the russians have been told they have until thursday to respond, otherwise further action may be taken by the end of the week. but interpol says it is investigating some of those people in this report. so this could yet lead to a

criminal investigation. >> report also says that there is no reason to believe the track and field is the only russian sport affected. nina khrushchev is a professor of international affairs and specializes in history. all of these juicy details come out about top-level, basically, kind of trying to fix these events to make sure the russians win. how does something like this, a report from the world doping agency, how does that go over inside of russia? >> inside russia, the information is the worst is to russia, which has been a story at least for the last two years. and the west really doesn't know what else to say bad about russia, and the chair of the sports committee just came out and said russia cannot be -- cannot be guilty of everything. you know, the west should understand that. so it's really not the russian problem. >> is that true? so that's the official line --

does that trickle down to -- >> absolutely. >> are people saying, nah, there's no way. >> but we do know we love our athletes. and if somebody in another country tries to attack our athletes, we sort of rally behind the flag. and especially with the sochi olympics. because russia won in such a stunning way, 33 medals. and i was actually in moscow during the olympics and it was amazing. because it was fought like world war ii battle. so russia is not going to give up those victories. and whatever medals are being stripped of russia, it's going to be western conspiracy and russia once again is going to defend itself from those hypocritical westerners who allowed themselves to be victorious, but cannot tolerate russia when it's strong. >> so in the end, this could strengthen vladimir putin at home? >> absolutely. because it's yet another thing that the west does that is incredibly unfair to russia.

and the russians would even say that even if we cheated, who cares? because we cannot win -- >> we outsmarted the rest of the world? >> not only we outsmarted the rest of the world, but also that we're never really given a fair chance by the west. because they don't allow us to play on their terms, so we have to create our own. so in this way, putin once again becomes a great hero who stands up to the west, because they not only tried to deal with our crimea but our sports is also being attacked. >> i think this story also says something about the importance of sports in russia, in russian culture and the importance of it being at top in global athletic competiti competitions. >> but everywhere. all countries want to be top. the thing about sports, it's the substitute for war in all countries. so if you do well in sports, then you're basically winning those battles. but in russia, because,

especially the atmosphere that is there today because of the really very now nasty relationship between the west and russia, this is a very big deal. because we're not only fighting wars to defend our territory, which, you know, ukraine and our territory, we're defending crimea, because this is our russian people, but we're also defending our honor in sports. and otherwise, look at this western people. they want to take everything away from us. so putin does become, for propaganda purposes once again, it really is a very good story for putin. >> it's amazing it turns around, but makes sense what you're saying. thank you, appreciate it. and coming up next, has hillary clinton and jeb bush set their targets on marco rubio? stick around and we'll tell you. the new 2016 ram limited.

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in the run-up to tonight's debate, things are heating up between the establishment candidates and a rising star in the gop. "the new york times" reporting that some jeb bush allies are threatening a wave of harsh attacks on marco rubio. of course, bush was the mentor for rubio for many years. one chief strategist for bush has reportedly even boasted of his willingness to spend $20 million to damage rubio's reputation and halt his sudden assent in the polls. but the attacks are also coming from the other side of the aisle. the hill reporting that the super pac aligned with hillary clinton has issued a dozen separate e-mail blasts or advertisements attacking rubio by name in just the last two weeks. no other republican presidential candidate is receiving that level of scrutiny from the

clinton world. it is little surprise that rubio is starting to garner this negative attention from his rivals. a new poll shows that he is now running third in the gop race behind ben carson and donald trump. and already, rubio is launching a preemptive strike against bush's threats of an attack. >> i'm a huge marco fan. >> he's probably the most articulate on the conservative today. >> so proud of his high-voltage energy. i'm so proud of his enthusiasm. i'm so proud of his eloquence. >> i'm a huge marco fan. >> let's bring the "national journal's" lauren fox and jackie kucinich with the daily beast. jackie, this is the danger in life of taking someone under your wing and say, i believe in you, kid, i'm going to make you something. you make him something and it comes back to haunt you. that seems to be what jeb bush is finding out. one of the best parts of that ad is the end, when jeb is saying something great about rubio and then, marco rubio says, i'm

marco rubio and i support this message. >> you can imagine bush sitting there and watching that. >> one of the dangers when you see the bush super pac strategist talking about willing to spend $20 million against marco rubio to make him look back. when you talk to jeb bush, donors and insiders who aren't on the campaign, some of them will tell you that their next choice is marco rubio. so you risk alienating these people, who, like you, but also like marco rubio. and aren't looking at it as a him versus you. so that's very dangerous, that sort of gingrich scorched earth policy that he had with mitt romney, between jeb and marco rubio. >> and lauren, it's interesting, i'm trying to think, if that's the decision that bush and his team make, that they want to go after marco rubio, how that enjoy after him is what i'm trying to figure it out. how do they make it work. it wouldn't be that marco rubio isn't enough on abortion, it would be that he's too conservative. i'm trying to imagine an attack

like that in the republican primary, how that would work. >> i think jeb bush is trying to carve out a certain space, right? what we've seen is that donald trump, ted cruz, and ben carson are trying to compete for the most conservative voters. and i think jeb bush is trying to find if there's a middle ground to sort of reach out to some of these more moderate folks. and that's where he's saying rubio somebody who could be a problem for him. he might go after him on something like abortion, like you mentioned. he might also start to talk more about marco rubio's background on immigration, you know? he supported an immigration bill in the senate, but then it sort of pivoted away from it in recent months. i think jeb bush might see that as another possible place to attack and win voters with, you know, in the moderate republican world or business leaders, who have long been pushing for immigration reform. so i think that there are a lot of different areas where jeb bush's team might look to marco rubio, but there are some of these more personal attacks. and i think, you know, things like his financial history, how he used, you know, party credit cards. i think all of those things are going to be coming back out as

jeb bush sort of poses for this attack. >> you know, jackie, i keep thinking of, and this works in talking about the republican race and maybe even a rubio versus clinton race, i keep thinking of bill clinton, who said, in politics, you always want to make it about forward versus backward. about the future versus the past. and i'm looking at that contrast between jeb bush. it's been a decade, basically, since he's governor. he's into his 60s right now. he's a lineage candidate. and then you've got marco rubio, who is pretty much brand-new to the political scene. he can campaign, he's a generation younger than bush. and it seems like the attack from bush, the attacks from the old guard against the rising star, they can look desperate. >> and the rising star can benefit from them, very easily, which is one of the reasons you see the clinton campaign and their affiliates, starting to look at marco rubio, starting to go after him, starting to send out these -- this opposition research about marco rubio. because, they were prepared for bush. they were looking at bush.

they really weren't -- >> they thought that's a race they can win. >> yeah, totally. and they do still think they can win against marco rubio, but they're worried, because that is a contrast between hillary clinton who's been in politics forever, for all intents and purposes, or marco rubio who's new to the scene and the fresh face. >> and when i look deep in these poll numbers, i think i'm picking up on this, plubio deep in the horse race, when you look at questions about likability and electability, it seems like republicans are starting to thinking ahead and saying, our best bet next to hillary clinton might be this guy. >> well, and i think if you look at sort of how he's performed in the debates and we'll be looking for this tonight, of course, he's definitely more relaxed. he's interested in sort of taking these attacks and then being sort of the polite response. you know, that moment that jeb bush and marco rubio have in the last republican debate, i think, was very representative of how rubio is handling these attacks. he just said to jeb bush, you

know, somebody in your camp told me to attack you this way. i think that's what we're going to see tonight and i think that's sort of why folks think he's more competitive moving forward. >> that was a devastating moment for jeb bush in the last debate. lauren fox from the "national journal" and jackie kucinich, thank you. "hardball" starts right now. >> trump's big casino. let's play "hardball." good evening, i'm chris matthews in washington. tonight is the big economics debate on the fox business network. it's the home game for donald trump, a man who's won big in real estate, the landmark address and personified swank. the man is something else, of course, a world-class champion of economic nationalism. you hear the anger of a company, especially