know, somebody in your camp told me to attack you this way. i think that's what we're going to see tonight and i think that's sort of why folks think he's more competitive moving forward. >> that was a devastating moment for jeb bush in the last debate. lauren fox from the "national journal" and jackie kucinich, thank you. "hardball" starts right now. >> trump's big casino. let's play "hardball." good evening, i'm chris matthews in washington. tonight is the big economics debate on the fox business network. it's the home game for donald trump, a man who's won big in real estate, the landmark address and personified swank. the man is something else, of course, a world-class champion of economic nationalism. you hear the anger of a company, especially the working class

white guy. the invasion of illegal workers, the failure of washington big shots to protect them, two protect their country. well, tonight, it's trump against the chumps. the economic nationalists out to defend the working guy against a weak political establishment at the top. the only question is the big one. it's whether trump can wield his mighty weapon of his or be drawn into a shoving match with dr. ben carson or marco rubio. can he use tonight to forge for good his reputation as a tough guy, ready to fight for america or lose it as the street corner bully against the skinny kid on the block. nbc's chris jansing in milwaukee tonight. that's the debate site. chris, that to me, the guy had so much power coming out, using the immigration issue as an economic national issue, if you will. and he got caught up in "saturday night live" and all this other nonsense. can he get back on track, where he might be able to win this thing? >> reporter: well, here's the thing. this is what his people have been waiting for. they say this plays to his sweet

spot, right? the economy. you're right, though, what the question is. does this devolve in some people's opinion, into fights between ben carson and donald trump about ben carson's personal history? we've certainly seen in the past week, he's been going after carson. carson's people, their attitude is, bring it on. first of all, it fired up their candidate. second of all, it really fueled their fund-raising. he put out another e-mail today, looking for money, calling it vicious lies that have been perpetrated against him. and his campaign just told me, chris, in the last hour or so, that yesterday set a single-day record for ben carson in direct mail response. 20,000 pieces of mail, 85 to 90% of it with checks. do the math, if the average is $51 per donation, you're looking at something over $850,000 in a single day, just in direct mail.

but, there's danger too, right, for donald trump in going after him. because if you look at that mcclatchy poll today, where he has pulled slightly ahead nationally, the more interesting number is sort of behind that. which says, who do you like more, the more you get to know about them? and it's a runaway for ben carson. he is, by far, the most popular guy in the field. so anybody, whether it's donald trump or someone else, who wants to take him down, his campaign thinks does so at his own risk, chris. >> i still think he's a parking place for people still looking for a president, but we will see. i've been wrong before. thank you so much, nbc's chris jansing. nbc's katy tur covers the trump campaign. she joins us from new hampshire. katy, i think new hampshire is another place where trump could hit it big, come the primary there in february. but tonight it seems like he's got to get back on track and focus on what i think has always been his calling card, economic nationalism. your thoughts? >> reporter: yeah, and when you

asked or when you look at those polls with his numbers going up and down, his likability numbers aren't always so high, but what he does always and consistently lead in, is the economy. he does a really good job convincing people that he would be strong on the economy. and although we're not talking about it as much on the news and in our headlines, because the headlines seem to get wrapped up in his attacks on the other opponents, trump has been hitting this point hard in every single one of his rallies. he always talks about how he would be a better trade negotiator than anyone else. he always hits mexico and china for taking jobs away from america. yesterday, in springfield, illinois, he hit nafta. he hit boeing, he hit ford. he hit nabisco. boeing for opening its first plant in china, first plant ever opened overseas. ford for moving a plant to mexico, manufacturing parts in new mexico. nabisco for moving a plant over as well. he says he's the only one that will be able to negotiate the deals that would bring those jobs back. and he attack is his opponents and says his opponents like rubio and bush and carson and

hillary won't be able to do that, because they are pressured by lobbyists, they are pressured by the people who donate to their campaigns. and donald trump is not taking donations, he says. he is funding this by himself. and it's allowing him to be independent and allowing him to say to china, you're a currency manipulator. you're not doing this fairly. you need to come back to the negotiating table. and he says he'll -- by doing that, he will be bringing jobs back to this country. if he's able to focus on that tonight, donald trump will do well, because as he so rightly said, it is where he is the strongest. >> is it really cold out there already? what's it going tb like in january? it looks like it already is january up there. what's the temperature -- >> it's not as cold as -- it's like in the 30s, 40s. it's not as cold as my jacket says, but i'm a wimp. >> your jacket says 20 degrees below. katy, thank you. keep it warm up there. katy tur of nbc. anyway, trump uses strong talk on the economy to turn up the heat on ben carson ahead of tonight's fox business debate. he's going after carson saying,

quote, ben carson has never created a job in his life, well, maybe a nurse. i have created tens of thousands of jobs. it's what i do. in the run-up to tonight, trump has repeatedly questioned carson's bona fides, don't ever even talk about the economy. >> do you think that ben is going to go to china? these guys are fierce. they come into your office, there's no, hello, how are you? it's, wonderful day -- they come in, we want deal! there's no games. i do this for a living. i'm really good at it, folks. really good. i will bring our jobs back. i'll bring our money back. i'll bring our manufacturing back. ben cannot do that. i don't think carson's going to negotiate really well with china, folks, in all fairness, okay? i don't think so. and i like him. i don't think so. these are people with no experience. these are people that never met a payroll. these are people that have never done it before. and they don't know what they're doing. >> michael steele is rnc chair,

steve schmidt was a top strategist in the 2004 bush k b campaign, and a senior adviser to john mccain's 2008 campaign. robert costa, national political reporter with "the washington post." michael steele, this guy can get away with charlie chan impressions. what's this, "we want deal," we don't even notice that he talks like this anymore. but it is tough talk. is he going to be able to stay on message, so knock everybody's block off, because as he's told us a few times, he's a multi, multi-billionaire? >> yeah, you know, i think this is an opportunity for him to try to take a different tact. don't come after ben carson or anyone else on that stage on the personal stuff, on the things that the press has been talking about on the last few days. this is his sweet spot. show us how you make the art of the deal. show us how you create the jobs and have been a part of this economic pulse of the country in a way that these other candidates have not.

i think for donald trump, this is a defining moment. this is his sweet spot, as was said before. you're either going to show us that or just wind up rolling off the stage ultimately, and you'll get usurped by a ben carson or a, you know, a jeb bush, even. because as a governor, he had a very successful time governing an economy in florida that was a prosperous one. so i think for donald trump, this is a chance to really show his bona fides and the seriousness of his campaign, for the presidency. >> well, dr. carson has told reporters that he'll have the economy booming. in fact, the word is buzzing. he doesn't buzz, how would the economy buzz. let's watch. >> we can have this economy buzzing in no time. but, you know, there are those who would have you believe this is so complex, they're the only ones who can understand it, and certainly no one who has not been in elected office can understand it. well, aye got news for you, our system was designed for citizen

statesmen. it was not designed for career politicians and there's a reason for that. >> you know, that $17 trillion economy was designed for the non-experts. i don't get it, steve. explain him to me. we're talking about a country, by the way, the republican party, 40% say the top issue the economy. not just income inequality, not jobs, per se, not trade, per se. will this economy hold up? this thing on which everything else relies, and here's the guy saying, i'm the gifted amateur, i will make it buzz. >> you have in the republican party, you have a shift to the right in the republican party over recent years. you have religious conservatives in the party. this evangelical christian base of the republican party is ben carson's base. he is the most popular candidate in the field, and so donald trump makes a big mistake tonight if he gets into a tussle with ben carson. donald trump is effective fighting from his right to his left against the establishment candidate and he has two really

interesting departures from republican orthodoxy on economics that we'll see. all of these establishment candidates are free traders. druonald trump is not. this debate is taking place in the industrial midwest, milwaukee, wisconsin, right? these are places where trump's base is living, breathing, and agreeing with him when he says the country's not great anymore. they've seen the manufacturing belt of the economy hollowed out. these jobs outsourced and sent overseas. the second issue that trump has departed with republican orthodoxy on is carried interest. the tax loophole that benefits people cheaply if financial services industry. who's going to defend the carried interest loophole when donald trump attacks it? one of the things that ties donald trump to bernie sanders, they're the two candidates in the race talking about money and politics. they're the two candidates who are saying, none of this is on the level. you'll see that populism play out tonight. i also think it's important to

watch marco rubio tonight. marco rubio's going to have a coming at him from donald trump, from jeb bush. once again, jeb bush is telegraphed his attacks right down to the $20 million they're getting ready to spend on negative ads. marco rubio was ready last time, jeb bush came at him, marco rubio knocked him on his you know what with a counterpunch. so we'll be seeing that again tonight. >> let me go to robert costa, one of the best reporter outs there. robert, it seems to me that trump has the merry christmas by accident. he got into this economic nationalism argument by talking about illegal immigration, then got into the issue of trade and being tough with china. i agree completely with steve. in the rust belt and you go into all of those cities, all that's left is a blockbuster and maybe a diner or an i-hop. that's it. there's no more industry left, just rust. and he comes into a place like missouri, which has always been trade sensitive, any of these midwestern states and talks the

line of economic nationalism, i don't think these other guys hold a candle to him. why does he want to get involved in these intermural fights with dr. carson? >> well, he wants to elbow out carson and maybe elbow rubio, but when i spoke to trump before this debate, i said, how are you going to connect with economic nationalism? he said, look, i don't need to have a policy plan, i don't need to detail one, two, and three about what i'm going to do. i need to connect. i said, what does that mean? he said, you have to convey a feeling of the voters out there. i think that's what we'll see from trump tonight. someone who's trying to connect rather than unveiling another plan. >> i want see gut patriotism from both parties. somebody who cares about this country in their gut. anyway, ahead of tonight's debate, donald trump has been targeting ben carson's violent past. this is the kind of weird stuff, including carson's story about pathological violence as a kid. well, trump spoke to a crowd of 10,000 people last night and called into abc's "good morning america" today and here he is.

>> president trump! president trump! if you try and hit your mother over the head with a hammer, your poll numbers go up. i never saw anything like it. this is the only election in history where you're better off if you stab somebody. what are we coming to? i'm trying to figure out what's going on over here. you hit somebody in the face with a lock, you go after your mother with a hammer, you do all of these things and you're trying to justify that, yes, you did them, and that's supposed to make you credible. >> michael steele, i realize that it's an easy shot to put a guy down for these strange sort of admissions, confessions, if you will, of dr. carson, but they do take away tv time, when he could be pounding on the issues, that gets in people's guts. that they're being betrayed at the top. you know, the rot at the top.

it's an old argument, but i think people really feel it today, the sophisticates including hillary clinton and the rest are so sophisticated and have so many advanced degrees, they don't know how to defend the country when it comes to jobs, defend us against illegal immigration, defend us against wasteful spending because there's too many interest groups they're playing with. they don't feel people are looking out for the average guy, you know? and i think that guy would like to hear trump not bash dr. carson. >> exactly. and that's -- i think in some respects, trump is almost stuck in that rut, because it worked with jeb bush, it worked with scott walker, it worked with these other candidates. who responded as traditional establishment candidates would respond. well, that's not ben carson. and i think, you know, the wisdom of both costa and steve should come into place here, in that for trump, the best thing to do is to stay in your lane. to stay in the sweet spot that you have and you know. talk and connect to the american people in the rust belts.

talk and connect to the guy who's been employed for the last 18 months and understands that the possibility of getting a job is less and less because it's going overseas or it's going someplace else. that's where he needs to be. if he gets tangled up, chris, in this, i'm going to come after you and talk about you going after your mama thing, it's not going to work. it's only going to embolden him. and just as jeb bush, as robert has noted, has telegraphed his move, trump doesn't need to telegraf anymore moves as he's done so far this week. focus on your lanes and focus on the economy and you can come out a lot stronger. >> thank you, steve schmitt, michael steele and robert costa. see you after the debate. by the way, a lot of people can't find the financial fox network, but we'll have all the highlights tonight at 11:00. the good news, the bad guys, and who blew it tonight. we'll also have the train wrecks. it will be a lot of fun. coming up, if trump versus

carson is tonight's biggest fight, next will be that pair from florida, jeb bush and marco rubio. rubio's on the rise and jeb does not like it one bit. plus, we'll be joined by one of the republicans who ran for president last time around. there she is, the remarkable u.s. congresswoman michele bachmann of minnesota is coming here tonight. and the "hardball" roundtable tells us which candidates have the clearest path to the nomination. and the likely matchup, by the way. let's face it, they're all going to go campaigning against hillary clinton eventually. finally, let me finish with the trump opportunity tonight, which is, as he would put it, "huge." this is "hardball," the place for politics. compared to the alternatives. push! i am pushing! sfx: pants ripping how you doing eddie? almost there. small steps. at axa, we'll help you take the next steps, with more confidence. for advice, retirement and insurance, talk to axa today.

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it's gotten squarer. over the years. brighter. bigger. thinner. even curvier. but what's next? for all binge watchers. movie geeks. sports freaks. x1 from xfinity will change the way you experience tv. love that election year music. welcome back to "hardball." at the last debate, jeb bush tried and clearly failed to land his sunday punch on marco rubio, the man bush sees as his biggest threat. what about tonight? will bush try to slam him again? according to "the new york

times," the bush team is preparing right now to go hard at rubio. quote, seething with anger and alarmed over mr. rubio's rise, aides to mr. bush, the former florida governor, and his allies are privately threatening a wave of scathing attacks on his former protege in the coming weeks. "the times" reports that a pro-bush super pac is renting a video right now that calls rubio too extreme on abortion. that comes with pearl in a right-tilting primary season. today rubio's team responded with an online video that shows bush's past support for rubio. let's watch. >> what marco has, i think, something that the republican party needs to have, which is a hopeful, optimistic message, based on our principles. i'm a huge marco fan. he's probably the most articulate conservative on the scene today and would be a good president. so proud of his high-voltage energy. i'm so proud of his enthusiasm. i'm so proud of his eloquence.

i'm a huge marco fan. >> i'm joined right now by msnbc's haley barbour out in milwaukee. thank you so much for -- halley jackson, not halley barbour. halley, it's live tv. you're the new kid on the block. let me ask you this, isn't it dangerous for a republican candidate, in a very conservative year, to be attacking an opponent, in this case, bush attacked rubio, for being too tough on abortion. >> this is something that could potentially, chris, play very well with the gop primary voters. like the folks who are actually going out and caucusing and casting ballots in this republican race. what's interesting about this times piece, too, it's essentially telegraphing bush's line of attack or bush's allies' line of attack. this is something we saw the last debate when jeb bush and his team televised the fact they were going to come after marco rubio on senate votes. that allowed the rubio team to prepare for that and to be able to have an attack line ready if that moment or that opportunity came up. so i wouldn't be surprised to

see something potentially similar tonight. >> why are we getting the word ahead of time of every punch that bush is about to throw at rubio. is that a mole somewhere in the bush campaign? is it stupid p.r.? you're supposed to surprise people, to dry gulch them. you're not supposed to say, guess what i'm going to do to you tomorrow night? >> i think there's a strategy you're seeing among some campaigns that they're not revealing that line of attack. like, you're not hearing what they're going to come out with in the debates, but what they're going to do moving forward. it seems to be something some campaigns are doing and others aren't. >> yeah, well, thanks so much, halley jackson, thanks so much for joining us. i'm joined by ben ginsburg, a republican lawyer earlier this month joined a meeting among most of the campaigns to change the debate process. it's great to have you, ben. you are an expert and you're celebrated in film, like and you really know this stuff better than anybody around. let me talk about the changing nature of the debate format. it's now down to less than ten. are we seeing a winnowing on purpose, knocking off chris

christie off the big kids' table. knocking off a lindsey graham, altogether out of the debate, either debate, big kids or little kids table. is that purposeful? >> well, i'm not sure if it's purposeful. and you don't really yet know who's making the decision. is it the network or is it the party? what you're doing is having a bunch of media polls based on 400-person samples, used to winnow the field, rather than having voters. part of the issue that i think the campaigns are concerned about, especially the ones that are polling lower is that there are no staples being used in the decision. the margin of error of the polls that are being used make it really difficult to segment between a candidate at 6% and a candidate at 0.5%. right? that's all within the statistical margin of error of the polls. yet it's being used to narrow the field. >> you think christie was unfairly knocked out? >> yeah, i think that based on the precision of the polls that

were used, it's really hard to draw a line between what a candidate polling at 0.25 is from a candidate polling at 7%. >> the trouble with the debate, if you go into a debate and you're behind or know you're behind or think you're behind, you take a slug at the other guy. that always seems to fail. inevitably, you say reagan's too old, quayle says he'sed a good as jack kennedy, trying to knock the guy out -- it's always the counterpunch that wins. i wonder if the debate can change, because the guy who's behind always slugs at the guy ahead and always gets thrown back. >> here's what will be different about tonight's debate, structurally to allow candidates to show substance. the answers are 90 seconds along as opposed to 60 seconds. the rebuttals are 60 seconds as opposed to 30 seconds. that will give candidates a chance to show their substantiative knowledge and maybe even give them a chance to speak about their vision.

>> you think that will make the difference? >> well, i think it can provide different perspectives for candidates. so far, a debate -- doing well in a debate has been sort of a sugar high for a candidate. they're up for a while, they raise money in that period, they get some more supporters, important, it's not lasted long. >> to make my last point, fiorina, carly fiorina, did really well for a couple of weeks after getting smashed unfairly, really grossly, by trump. >> right. >> and hasn't been as good since. that was a sugar high. >> and remember, there are now five weeks between tonight's debate and the next debate on december 15th. >> so tonight matters. >> tonight matters. >> thank you, one of the smartest people in this business. as i mentioned earlier, "the new york times" reported bush aides and allies are stepping up their attack on marco rubio. according to the times, that includes an effort by the main pro-bush super pac, right to rise. quote, in an attempt to blunt mr. rubio's appeal and showcase

a potential vulnerability against the democratic nominee in the general election, the group's top strategist recently showed some republicans a video portraying mr. rubio as too extreme on abortion. a longtime opponent of abortion rights, mr. rubio said in a debate in august, that he had never advocated lawsed that allow abortion, even in cases of rape or incest. mr. murphy has privately said to several people that right to rise would be ready to vote over $20 million. anyway, i'm joined by alex carnes, a senior adviser to jeb bush, and rick tyler, spokesman for ted cruz's campaign. alex, why would your candidate, ted cruz, attack a fellow republican, a fellow pro-lifer on being too pro-life? it doesn't make sense. >> well, he hasn't. i think jeb bush has been taunted by some in the media to opine on marco's history on the

subject, and he said, i've got my own history. i'm pro-life. i've talked about it and i believe in certain exception. you can talk about marco. jeb hasn't done it. we don't speak to mike murphy, as you know, we can't do that. all i've seen from mike murphy's super pac are biographical ads so far for jeb. he may be saying what he's saying to some donors, but i haven't seen any evidence of it, that i'm not going to opine on marco's position on abortion. >> so just to clarify your position, mr. carnes, as a surrogate and supporter of jeb bush, governor bush, you think it would be a bad political move to attack marco rubio for setting too high a standard on exceptions to abortion? >> i haven't opined on that. i mean, you've got to opine like the supreme court said on pornography. i've got to see it to opine on it and i've got to see an ad in order to opine on it. but all i can tell you is jeb bush has chosen not to take marco on on that subject. >> let me go to rick tyler on

this question. what is cruz's strategy. most of us in the media that i've talked to say that cruz's strategy is pretty smart. he thinks that both of these candidates, trump and carson, are sort of cotton candy, the real meal is ahead, and eventually they'll fade, fizzle, whatever, and he'll move in there on that renegade side of politics. the antiestablishment wing of the party. >> well, the cotton candy part is your words, in the ours. but our strategy has been the same all along. we want to consolidate the broad-based voter into one candidate, ted cruz, and we'll ultimately run against the establishment candidate. what's interesting about the establishment, the establishment is very angry and there's a lot of them and that's sort of very different. we're competing for the conservative voter, we've been consolidating that vote, which is why we have a thousand leaders in the state, 80,000 volunteers for cruz, we've now

qualified for over 20 states, we file for 14 more. so we're organized all the way through to the march 15th strategies. that's been our strategy, do well, all in the marchst primary, including texas, and i think we'll do very well. >> i think that's what i said in a different way, you'll wait until these other guys flame out. anyway, in recent days, senator cruz has been subtly jabbing at bush. maybe not subtly. last week he called the florida senator a moderate. ouch. let's watch. >> as i look at the race, historically, there have been two major lanes in the republican party. there's been a moderate lane and a conservative lane. the moderate lane is crowded as all getout. you have four or five candidates who are slugging it out, who can spend millions trying to take each other out. and i don't know who comes out of that lane. i think marco is certainly formidable in that lane. i think the jeb campaign seems to view marco as his biggest threat in the moderate lane.

and so i think they're going to slug it out for a while. >> rick, is moderate a putdown word in the republican conservative movement right now? a moderate is a bad adjective, if you will, moderate? >> the 538 did a study of the republican appeared and they scored it at a 71. ted cruz is a 72. we keep asking our party to elect a 56 and somehow we'll win with a 56. we don't need to win with a 56, we need to win with a 71 or a 72. ted cruz is right in the middle of the mainstream of the republican party nationally. he's the perfect fit. and that's why we're seeing all the enthusiasm and excitement and all the money coming towards him. so, he's a conservative, but i would say that he's in the center of the party. he's not to the right of the party. he's in the center. almost everybody else is to the left. >> okay. >> actually, the fact of the matter is that most candidates in this election, on the conservative side, including jeb bush, who was deeped the most

conservative governor when he served, and served on the board, the truth of the matter, there are only going to be two lanes in the home stretch of this campaign. a problem maker's lane and a problem solver's lane. jeb bush wants to be a conservative in the problem solver's lane, and we'll see how the think progressives, as the campaign moves forward. >> and maybe we'll end up with a moderate problem solver. anyway, alan carnes and rick tyler, thank you, gentleman. funny to me, they both look conservative. up next, congressman and former presidential candidate michele bachmann joins me. do you like your pretzel? yea. okay, uh, may i? 50% more data for the same price. i like this metaphor. oh, it's even better with funnel cakes. but very sticky. now get 15 gigs for the price of 10.

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oh he's gone. and our linebackers and dbs dish out punishment, and never quit. ♪ you didn't expect this did you? no i didn't. the nissan altima. there's a fun side to every drive. nissan. innovation that excites. i'm page hopkins and here's what's happening. a business jet crashed into an apartment building in akron, ohio. authorities believe nine people were aboard the aircraft. all are feared dead. no one on the ground was hurt. the obama administration will ask the supreme court to weigh in on the president's

immigration reform plan. an appeals court ruled against the plan on monday, the second legal setback for that measure. and former president jimmy carter is said to be responding well to cancer treatments. the carter center says there is no evidence the cancer has spread any further. and now we'll take you back to "hardball." isn't that great news about president carter? i have heard good reports about his treatment and therapy. we're back to "hardball." former congresswoman michele bachmann sparkled as an early front-runner in 2012 and that race for the republican presidential nomination doing especially well in the debates. and the only woman in the republican field back then, she had to answer some hostile questions. >> as president, would you be s subm

submissive to your husband. [ audience booing ] >> thank you for that question, byron. >> you're welcome. >> well, she was a hit on the campaign trail and the first woman ever to win the iowa straw poll. she had me convinced she was going all the way. watch me back then. >> what about michele bachmann? she's -- >> she's my hero. >> she's your hero? >> really? >> she's going all the way. she's going to win this thing. i'll tell you right now. i predict she beats romney. >> i predict she doesn't. well, actually, wait, beat romney? >> she will beat him in new hampshire, is where she'll beat him. >> what happened, former congressman michele bachmann joins me. you blew all my predictive ability. i had all my money on you to finish by a nose or two. >> it must have been -- >> why did you fade? >> it must have been monopoly money, that's all i can figure. by the way, people probably found out that, believe it or not, you may know this, the first presidential campaign that i ever worked on was jimmy carter's campaign. i was in college, i was a

democrat, and i worked on jimmy carter's campaign and actually, the very first time, chris, i ever went to washington, d.c. was to dance at jimmy carter's inaugural ball. >> wow. >> little-known fact. >> you probably cut the rug. but i must say, there's one person like you, a doppleganger, hillary clinton was a goldwater girl. >> i know! isn't it amazing! how we change. that's absolutely true. >> let me ask you about this women thing. and i think men always get in trouble on this, so i'll leave it to you. when hillary clinton said that bernie sanders was being sexist, if you will, when he said that people can shout all they want about gun safety, hillary clinton took umbrage with that, at least publicly. you don't know what people think. she said that basically that was making fun of her as a woman. she said that whenever women talk, people accuse them of shouting. if you have to be the referee on that, what would you call it? >> i don't know. i think when you live and die by ruling of political correctness,

eventually you're in the crosshairs yourself. and i think that that's really where hillary clinton is putting herself. i think that, really, she wants to be above that. and i don't think it's wise for her to go down that road. everyone knows, at this point, she will, in all likelihood, be the nominee of the democrat party. it's just a slam dunk. and actually, it's because of bernie sanders. he gave her the "get out of jail free" card in the last debate when he took benghazi off the table, the e-mails off the table. he -- it doesn't make any difference to me. and you had a smile from ear to ear on hillary's face. she saw right then and there, she was the nominee. >> i have never seen that done before, just give it away. it wasn't his issue, but why did he reach out -- >> he totally gave it away. what he did is he pulled all of the air out of his campaign. his campaign was over at that point. and i don't know why he did that. because he was surging wildly. he had so many people behind him here in minnesota. i didn't see any hillary bumper

stickers, i see bernie bumper stickers. i see bernie lawn signs, and after he did that, it was a self-destructive moment. and it's like, the whole gas is out of his campaign, and you just see no more enthusiasm. and i think it's hillary's, although there's not a lot of enthusiasm. so i think there's a problem. >> well, after the last republican debate, the women of "the view," you know that television show, made disparaging remarks about carly fiorina's face, using terms like "demented" and a "halloween mask," well fiorina went back on the show -- shows guts -- to face down her attackers. >> if you meant your comments about my face being demented and a halloween mask, so be it. i guess you misinterpreted donald trump's comments about my face. >> good for her going back on joy behar. back in 2011, some accused you, in fact "newsweek," of going after you, by using a very

unflattering picture of you on their cover. it doesn't look bad from here, but i guess they tried to make it scary. what did you think of it then, when "newsweek" went after you? >> first, i want to say, carly fiorina was brilliant. she cleaned the clock of both la ladies on "the view," as she needed to. you'll see her again hit it out of the park again in the debates. she's very good when she gets up on debates and knows exactly what she's doing. when i was in the race back in 2012 and "newsweek" came around to do a story, i was happy to do it. we spent a long time, hours and hours, shooting photos. they showed me kind of a short list of photos that they were going to choose from and then at the last minute, the photographer told me to sit on the bottom step of an aluminum ladder, she shined a light in my face, like a strobe light, and my eyes opened up, and that's the photo that they showed. it was a complete setup and that's what "newsweek" did.

"news max" magazine did a beautiful shot, same clothes, everything, and it was just done on purpose. >> i know. >> and to me, that was a sexist move. because they wouldn't do that to a man. they would only do something like that to a woman. and the thing is, you rise above it. and that's what i see carly fiorina doing. rising above these kind of things. and i think that's good, because she's a professional, she's not going to get caught up in it, and i think that that speaks really well for her as a woman. >> well, i wouldn't rise above it, because i don't believe in rising above things, because "new york times" magazine did it to me. they hired a guy from germany at $10,000 bucks come over here and spend hours until they got the shot they wanted, me laughing in a foolish way, they got it and did it and got it on the cover. it's not just against women, it's what it is. it's some kind of people out there that are not very nice. former michele bachmann, by the way, retirement from the house has done you good. you look great tonight. thank you for coming here.

thanks so much. i always speak the truth about you. much more ahead with tonight's roundtable. plus, whether or not you see the debate tonight, by the way, it's hard to find the fox business network, join us at 11:00 p.m. eastern for some fun. full coverage and analysis of that about the tonight. we'll see you there for two hours. we're on from 11:00 to 1:00 in the morning tonight eastern time. we'll talk about who the candidate who comes across most presidential tonight. do you like that word "presidential," and if we find one. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. yeah. now you would think your insurance company would cut you some slack, right? no, your insurance rates go through the roof. your perfect record doesn't get you anything. anything. perfect. for drivers with accident forgiveness, liberty mutual won't raise your rates due to your first accident. see car insurance in a whole new light. liberty mutual insurance. just serve classy snacks and bew a gracious host,iday party. no matter who shows up.

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trmp. challenge my thesis. this guy is a nationalist on trade, on immigration, on everything. he's the guy that's going to fight for america. he'll be the american putin, okay? or waste it all on a stupid intermural fight with carson and rubio? >> what's interesting about this debate, we've seen the maximum, there's a sealing and a floor of trump and carson. so what will be interesting is to see how the rest of the primary stacks up. you're starting to see some coalescing. you have the establishment primary, the conservative primary, i don't think it's going to be, unless he really surprises us, i don't think he has much to show us tonight. who? >> trump. >> you think trump's on the resurgence? >> i think, probably. interestingly, the last couple of debates, he kind of laid low in a way. and i don't think he can do that again. i think he needs to be more prominent, first of all. and second, i think these issues, that's the issue that's his wheelhouse, basically.

is his economic nationalism with the immigration issue, the part of that sort of as icing for that cupcake. so he needs to -- so, i think that's where he needs to focus. and i agree, it would be a huge mistake to spend his time going after ben carson. >> they only get so much time. there's two hours, but there's, you know, nine candidates and a moderator. >> yes, well -- >> yes. trump is in a position to play to every place, with that message that you're talking about, chris. the others, to one degree or another, are still playing to one section or another. and you've got intermural fights going on elsewhere. you're going to have -- everybody's going to look at the bush/rubio submatch. >> abortion fights. >> which is crazy. >> two guys. >> yeah, two guys. >> they'll look at that fight over in that corner. they'll look and see what ted cruz does to get his crowd together. but, trump can afford to, i think, stand above it all,

really. >> and there'll be pressure on ben carson, too. ben carson can say all he wants about how he doesn't want to have to answer specifics or the media is out to lunch. he's got to perform substantively. >> how does a guy who operates in a slow way of talking, i admit i talk too fast, but he talks too slow, i would argue. how does a guy like that say, i'm going to get the economy buzzing again. it doesn't seem like his word, buzzing again. >> no, but what's also interesting tonight, there will be eight candidates and they'll have more time to answer the questions. the moderators are very focused on actually distinguishing policy differences. i think it will be a challenge for carson, a challenge for trump, and also a challenge for jeb bush. each of them have had trouble answering questions in a substantiative manner and they're going to have more time, which means they have less room to hide and will really be -- >> the problem with ben carson is nobody knows exactly what problem it is he's solving. you know what i mean? with trump, you know, it's them. we've got to get great again. >> he wants to be a putin. >> what is it with carson? what problem is he addressing? >> give me the appeal of carson.

>> well, you know, he has an inspirational story. he clearly is a very bright man. he was a brilliant neurosurgeon. he -- you know, he represents something to a lot of people. a bit pious. >> the man of genius and words. is it inevitable? no. >> i can't believe -- >> my question, what project or problem is it that he's saying he's going to solve? >> you can't hit him, because he's a hologram almost. >> he's for government by the people. >> the roundtable is sticking with us. and up next, these three will tell me something i don't know and you something you don't know. we'll be right back. i (state your name), do solemnly swear that i will support and defend the constitution of the united states against all enemies foreign and domestic...

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reflexes faster than the speed of thought. can a business have a spirit? can a business have a soul? can a business be...alive? we are back with the "hardball" roundtable. tell me something i don't know. >> last night benjamin netanyahu received the irving crystal award if from the institute which pressed him to support removing the syrian president from power. he advocated restraint. it shocked the audience. >> restraint?

>> he said he didn't think when bad guys are fighting you don't need to get involved and there are other important issues. >> regime change. howard? >> remember rand paul? >> yes. >> one of the guys running for p. he may have wanted to drop out but he can't and the reason is he muscled the republican party of kentucky to create a special primary just for the presidential race next march. i don't think he can quit until he runs in his own primary next spring. >> will good stories ever stop coming from kentucky? >> not as long as i'm around. >> remember john boehner? >> yes. >> when he was in trouble and it looked like he may want to stay, nancy pelosi and the democrats were prepared to provide him with the votes he needed to stay as speaker. >> really? >> it's the rebels, on the record. >> a bipartisan speaker. never before done. that's a book. eugene robert son, molly hemingway and robert fineman. let me finish with this trump

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loet me finish tonight with a fascinating night in american politics. this looks like the night we'll discover if donald trump is serious about running for and being elected president of the country. i believe he has it in his hands to win the republican nomination. he has the issue that will

win -- economic nationalism. the gut sense held by tens of millions of americans that this country isn't being protected on the economic front, we are not defending american jobs from unfair competition abroad, protecting the american worker from competition from low wage illegal immigrants, that we are not protecting the money collected in taxes from the corrupt use in washington. either we have a country or dewe don't. that's the proposition donald trump put to chuck todd. it is a challenge to those with power. are you patriots? do you feel it in your gut? do you fight for all you have? do you? or is there some sophisticated reason why you don't? this is the spark donald trump let fly when he opened the campaign talking about illegal immigrants. he managed to touch on something. the suspicion by the working guy that people at the top are letting things slip as they hold onto the pou and perks that come with high office. if trump goes back to that

tonight i can't see anyone beating him now or later. that's kwoez has"hardball." come back and join me from 11:00 to 1:00 a.m. for full coverage of the highlights tonight and lowlights. "all in with chris hayes" starts now. tonight on "all in" -- >> this is a strange election, isn't it? man. >> it's debate night in america. all eyes are on marco rubio and ben carson at the fourth republican debate. >> man, is he sweating. >> tonight proving the economic debate with a look at each candidate's plan for america. >> we cut taxes. >> we are reducing taxes. >> if we cut taxes we can bring it back. >> a look at the fore shadowed attack from bush and trump. >> you should show up to work. >> and where each candidate comes down on the dark side. >> i hated darth vader. now i feel sorry for hi