gets around so fast? take the reins this holiday and get the mercedes-benz you've always wanted during the winter event. hurry, offers end soon. commotion in the boardroom. let's play hardball. ♪ good evening. i'm chris matthews. eight republican showed off their agreements and differences are they agreed to vastly cut taxes, especially corporate taxes. they agreed not to raise the minimum wage. they agreed to repeal regulations on business. where they fought, and this is interesting, over illegal immigration. donald trump wanted to send back the immigrants. jeb bush made the case against him. the other war was over war itself. marco rubio with military action around the world, especially insecure yet.

donald trump again the nationalist arguing against morton the eastern involvement. all in all, trump as the fiery economic nationalist. marco rubio as the hawk laying to the neocons. bush trying to regain his feet. dr. carson trying to argue the case of simplicity. against, bleep it or not, the power of economic experts. the republican party heading into 2016 is for vastly lower taxes, lower regulations and more military involvement. more hawkish, in other words. how we jackson and robert costa are both in milwaukee covering tonight's debate. the big highlights for tonight with the republican parties hawkish streak on display. marco rubio won huge applause by going after dove, rand pole. >> i know that rand is a committed isolationist. i'm not. it i believe the world is a

stronger and at her place when the united states is the strongest military power in the world. >> marco, marco, how is a conservative to add $1 trillion expenditure for the federal government that you are not paying for? how is it conservative to add $1 trillion in military expenditures? you cannot be a conservative if you keep promoting new programs you are not going to pay for. >> let me respond. we can't even have an economy if we are not safe. there are radical g hottest beheading people and crucifying christians. a radical clara in iraq trying to get a nuclear weapons. the chinese taking over the south china sea. yes, the world is safer. i don't believe -- it's a safer and better place when america is the strongest military power in the world. >> jeb bush sparred with donald trump over defeating isis. here him another fight over war. >> if putin wants to go knock the hell out of isis, i'm all

for it 100%. we cannot continue to be the policeman of the world. we have a country that is going to help. we have an infrastructure falling apart. our roads, bridges, schools, airports, and we have to start investing money in our country. >> thank you, sir. >> donald is wrong on this. he is absolutely wrong on this appeared we are not going to be the worlds's policeman, but we will be the leader. without us leading, voids are filled. the idea that it's a good idea for putin to be in syria, but isis take out a sod, and then who will take out isis, that's like a board game. that is like monopoly or something. that is not how the real world works. >> i think jeb bush got that all wrong about the board game. this tonight, as i said, a lot of agreement on the republican economic doctrine of lower taxes and regulation, less government,

but they did have some hot spots. the war issue was very hot tonight. >> national security, a big talking -- big issue for these guys are the men and women on age today talk about it with this, chris. national security was one. you saw the exchange between jeb bush and donald trump. that was a big moment. marco rubio jumped in and made his points when it came to foreign-policy, an area he likes to talk about that has become a platform for him on the campaign trail. rand paul is someone, while you show the exchange, seemed to do well tonight. he is somebody who stood out, stood up. he used his voice and spoke. somebody else who spoke a lot, governor kasich, who was frustrated, clearly and visibly frustrated that he wasn't getting a chance to answer questions. that was a moment early on that caught a lot of attention. >> why did donald trump yell at carly for interrupting when he interrupted a lot more?

>> good question for donald trump. >> thank you for that. let me go to robert costa. what did you see about tonight? i thought it was somewhat familiar, boardroom this ashen about how to lower tax rates for the better off, basically. then i saw this fight over immigration which i thought was interesting because trump has the hot hand in the republican party if you look at the numbers. bush comes back and plays the practical, pro-immigrant guy. he comes off as pro-immigrant. i think that may be a weaker card. your thoughts. >> the fault lines were drawn tonight on two key issues, foreign-policy and on immigration. on immigration, you had the order hawks versus the more pragmatic republicans. on foreign-policy, rand paul did have a moment. he has been trying to search for this libertarian argument all year to revive his father's these in places like iowa. paul is not the only one with a noninterventionist view.

trump is making the same case to those voters. we see the fault lies been drawn as this race unfolds. >> he isn't economic nationalist on every front, including not wanting to get involved overseas. on the issue of immigration, there was a shot at trump's plant to deport 11 million people here. >> for the 11 million people, come on, folks. we all know you cannot pick them up and ship them across, back across the border. it's a silly argument. it's not an adult argument. it makes no sense. >> all i can say is you are lucky in ohio that you struck oil. that's the one thing. >> ohio is diversified. false things, sir, they really don't work when it comes to the truth. the fact is, all i'm suggesting, we can't ship 11 million people out of this country. children would be terrified, and it will not work.

>> let me just -- build an unbelievable company with 1 billions and billions of dollars. i don't need to hear from this man. believe me. i don't have to hear from him. >> classic schoolyard put down. they all came out against raising the minimal wages. here is trump taking on the issue of minimum wage increases. >> taxes, too high, wages too high. we are not going to be able to compete against the world. i hate to say it, but we have to leave it the way it is. people have to go out and work really hard and get into that upper stratum. that we cannot do this if we are going to compete with the rest of the world. you just can't do it. >> so do not raise the minimum wage? >> i would not raise the minimum. >> ben carson spoke favorably about raising the minimum wage in an interview with cnbc. tonight he said he is against it. >> every time we raise the minimum wage, a number of

jobless people increases. this is a problem in the black community. only 19.8% of black teenagers have a job. or looking for one. that is because of those high in wages. how do we allow people to ascend the ladder of opportunity rather than giving them everything and keeping them dependent? [ applause ] >> so, just to be clear, you would not raise it? >> i would not raise it. >> thank you. we will be checking back with the you guys to out the night. we will be on for two hours. i am joined by andrea mitchell. steve schmidt was a strategist in senior adviser to john mccain's 2008 campaign and michael steele is joining us from out there in -- where are

you tonight? new hampshire. >> new hampshire, my friend. >> let's go to andrew. andrea, the hot stuff, tomorrow in the headlines. i think they will be arguing about war powers and stuff, war policy. i think they haven't figured out how to digest the iraq war because they lost numerous elections on the issue after '04. now they are not sure if they can say they really like the war a little bit. >> you have a clear dichotomy, but i think rocco rubio staked out his claim as the hawk. you have a time when syria is front and center with this egyptians crash and fingers pointed at isis. this is a critical point in foreign-policy and very hard not to be hawkish. >> i think a lot of americans look at russia going to war after the attack on their airliner. that sounds convenient for us.

why don't have the russians join us in fighting isis? maybe it's a practical statement. it made sense to me. >> actually, russia getting involved has made it a lot harder for the diplomacy and for what they u.s. wants to do. if you talk to the officials and the bricks, which i did today, and talk to the u.s. state department and where kerry is going. >> russia has to fight isis now. >> they have to escalate because putin's whole brand is a tough guy. >> what would we do if it was one of our planes? >> it's a chicken and egg thing. they went in on september 30th, where we did not want them to go. instead of attacking isis, the bad guys, they were attacking the enemies. >> being attacked by isis now. >> that is the retaliation. >> americans might worry about him later. >> there is no question that you saw in this debate and the fault

lines open up on immigration, but also on national security policy. one of the criticisms that republicans have, in my estimation, fairly of the obama administration is a total lack of strategy with regard to syria. as you let them to these candidates tonight, none of them have any holistic, geopolitical strategy with regard to syria, the broader middle east or even globally. the one person who argued tonight for something that i think will be received as making sense to the american people was donald front, to your point. >> because he said put america first on everything. better we look at our situation rather than the chinese. better we look at our situation rather than mexicans. everything is nationalistic, every time. >> american nationalist. you saw something tonight with ben carson. you saw it on the answer of the financial crisis two exactly.

>> also on national security questions. total, absolute gibberish. >> what was he talking about? >> it made nonsense, nonsense talk. >> michael steele mode the first time he was asked a foreign-policy question i thought he was a miss american contestant. stretching, kept stretching. >> that is an insult to miss carolina. >> memorizing words, and they didn't make sense. >> we all know -- >> well -- >> the famous case of that woman? showing words about apartheid in south africa. it was a bunch of phrases she had mesmerized. like in school. we put a lot of stuff and hopes it adds up to an answer. yes, michael. >> one of these things are not like the other, right? so this is the key thing. steve had it right. there were fault lines drawn tonight.

i think a beneficiary of those faultlines were definitely on old trump. i think he elevated himself in a way that you just touched on. his answer on the foreign-policy question made more sense than the others. you also have -- i think for rand paul, he was in the conversation. his voice was heard him and it illustrated a tension that exists within the party that is not resolved. that will get play out. you also saw with dr. carson just really almost a deer in the headlights moment on both of those subjects, economy and foreign-policy. i think it will hit his numbers a bit. his base will stay with him. i think independent and other voters who would gravitate toward him because they really like him will begin to think more seriously about the questions regarding the presidency. >> the downside much you might go to black mark has of mr. donald trump. he couldn't help himself. he took a shot at carly for interrupting, but she was not the only one interrupting.

he will have to answer for this, but let's watch. >> you can be strong without being involved in every civil war around the world. >> how would you respond? pierre ronald reagan was strong. >> ronald reagan's walked away, he quit talking. >> can i finish? >> when it's time. >> why does she keep interrupting everybody? >> he went right in overran paul, jumped her. >> she was not the only interrupter. the fact is that it was trump. i'm not sure that it bothers his supporters. >> it struck me as tourette's. he couldn't help himself. >> carly, in my view, didn't help herself in this confrontation with the view earlier this week. i think he somewhat immunized now, given his past history with her.

i don't think it will be an issue for him coming out of this, coming out of this debate. i do think another person who had a very good night tonight. >> what the first one? >> ted cruz. >> the first one? >> ted cruz, marco rubio. >> rubio and cruz. >> you said -- i don't want to interrupt you. michael said, you thought trump had a good night. >> one quick question about cruz, when he couldn't remember the government agencies. >> this is a moment where you see a guy so angry at the department that he hated it twice. he wants to get rid of the commerce department twice, doubled downing on it. he eliminates five, count them, five agencies. tonight he only named four, but he doubled down on commerce. let's watch. >> five major agencies, the irs, the department of commerce, the department of energy, the department of commerce and hud.

>> one way of not saying, oops, michael steal, is to repeat one. he really hates commerce. republicans are supposed to like the commerce department and hate the labor department. >> we don't like the bureaucracy around commerce. if you didn't list it from 2012, you learned it tonight. do not start listing federal agencies that you are going to eliminate. especially when a good thing to do. >> especially when your mates out there, one of the federal candidates is thinking they might end up in commerce. that might be the worst thing to do. i was thinking carly would love commerce after this is all over. >> maximum of two agencies. >> i do think that these carson numbers will soften. ted cruise is where they will go

to. >> he is very tea party today. he is getting rid of these. >> he is running a very smart campaign. ted cruz understands timing. he is patient and waiting for the ball to come to him. he hits all the marks in all of these debates. he has messages aimed at that evangelical, christian audience in iowa. he is running as an outsider and hitting all the tea party-themed. >> you have cruz and rubio that both did well. rump hit the notes you said on foreign-policy. it doesn't hold up when you look at it, but it's the most possible. >> what happened to jeb bush? he had to perform. he was stronger this time than before, but not strong enough. >> i'm not sure what he is out there to push except moderation. just not as far as you guys. split it in have to.

>> i think you saw the intelligence. >> you don't know his immigration policy. what is it? we don't report them. most people think that's ridiculous anyway. they want to see new controls that are regulated and enforced like most countries. somebody was saying, you can't go into mexico, other countries and walk in the door. i think it was trump. >> a lot of these candidates on the stage are very articulate and very good storytellers. jeb bush answers a question. you ask him, a, he will respond with "b." he will answer a question about the inks with capital requirements of immunity banks versus the too big to fail banks, but he is not telling a story. this isn't so different when president bush 41 was asked about the recession in the '92 day. clinton has the famous, you feel your pain moment. he doesn't understand the essence of the question for what was one of the big psychic events. >> it was a young woman who asked the deficit affecting her

family. he acted like he was grading her as a grad student and she wasn't passing. you don't set them. dave that you. thank you all for being here. coming up, we will hear from the carson campaign tonight, plus much more from milwaukee. i was trying to think of an old schlitz commercial, the beer that made milwaukee famous. our coverage of the republican debate continues. this is a special edition of hardball. >> we are a country of laws. we need orders. we will have a wall. the wall will be built. the wall will be successful, and if you think walls don't work him all you have to do is ask israel. the wall works, believe me. properly done. believe me. the promise of the cloud is that every organization has unlimited access to information, no matter where they are.

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will come back to "hardball" and our coverage of the republican presidential debate. i am joined by dana bass. here is where your candidate, dr. carson, said about the ongoing questions about the inconsistencies in some of his life story. >> when i look at somebody like hillary clinton who sits there and tells her daughter and a government official that, no, this was a terrorist attack him and then tells everybody else that it was a video, where i came from, they call that a lie. [ applause ] >> people who know me know that i am an honest person. >> miss bass, thank you for joining us. maybe i am older than some people, but the issue of using the word lie is a strong term. it's to say that a person was motivated to sell something they knew to be an untruth on purpose

with the material importance to what they were up to. it wasn't a casual thing. they are arguing that hillary clinton set out to tell her daughter something and an official something and put out the word otherwise by saying this was all about a movie when it was quite murky at the time. the movie had caused the same kind of event we were seeing in benghazi we saw in cairo and indonesia, the middle east and the islamic world. there was a lot of indignation about that video that came out just before that. then the benghazi facility was attacked. we took a lot of the impact. inks was a deliberate attack by terrorists. your candidate said tonight it was a lie for hillary clinton to speak as she did at the time, a lie. >> first of all, chris, thank you for allowing me to join you tonight. i think that what we should look at is what are the american people saying about dr. carson's character.

doctor carson. dr. carson said tonight that the people who know him know that he is a man of integrity and tells the truth. if we look at what the pulls are saying, people overwhelmingly believe dr. carson and believe him as a man of integrity. hillary clinton's trustworthiness, those numbers are not an caught encouraging to her or her campaign. it doesn't matter what dr. carson said. he did use that word, but, in fact, that is what the american people have been saying about this very issue. >> hillary clinton, hair political opponents say she is a liar again and again, like dr. carson did tonight? there is a circular effect here. >> no. i think that tonight dr. carson pointed out what the american people have been saying. these are questions that they want answered and that they -- as they review even what secretary clinton herself says, people just do not find her trustworthy.

it will be an issue in the general election. it is an issue for her right now, but it will be an issue when she goes up against, mike dr. carson. >> i'm not used to the word lie being used so often. let's watch this now. >> their desire is to destroy us and our way of life. so we have to be saying, how do we make them look white losers, because that is the way they are able to gather a lot of influence. i think in order to make them look like losers, we have to destroy their caliphate. you look for the easiest place to do that. it would be in iraq. our goal is not to contain them but to destroy them before they destroy us. [ applause ] >> i guess people -- most people would be calling for a definition, did to destroy the caliphate in iraq. does he say we should get back in there and beat them?

>> i think that more than anything what people are recognizing and what we recognize in this slate of candidates, the republicans that are on the stage, including dr. carson, believe that we need to show more leadership across the world. that is something that dr. carson and most of these candidates see as a shortcoming in the current administration. i do not think that these things are unpopular or foreign to what the american people believe. >> think you so much, deana. deana bass, thank you for your note today. it's very nice to hear from you. >> thank you so much. >> let's go right now to donald trump in the spin room. there he is. >> we look forward to it. it will be great. >> we were going to try to get him.

he is moving through that room. let me go over to an expert we have with us. i know you are not here for the defense of hillary, but it seemed a lot murkier been these politics and -- i'm sorry, we will give you a chance. this is a night of catching up. let's get back here with dr. carson, whose moving through the spin room. somebody carrying his sign, but nobody talking. just the sign. anyway. you have done this 1 million times. you delineate how when the truth emerged about what happened in benghazi. >> it emerged very messily. what they are zeroing in on is one e-mail to chelsea late that night where she said there was a terrorist attack. that, they say, conflicts with part of what was said in succeeding days that the video

play a role because the video did play a role in cairo. it wasn't entirely clear until they said -- state department at least claims -- until they saw the actual camera angles from the security angles that they had the hard angles of the mob outside. they didn't have real information. >> how did they know that it wasn't triggered by the video? >> there was just a lot heard some people were reporting there was a terrorist group outside. some people said this was related to what had happened in cairo. it was the fog of war. the other piece of it was, the cia was saying, we have to be in charge of the narrative. we have to say to the state department spokeswoman what she can and cannot say because they were trying to at least hide from the public the fact that there was a cia facility in benghazi. >> much more ahead on the debate. back to the spin room, plus, who will emerge the winner tomorrow morning?

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and then putting that out there as truth. we have to start treating people the same and finding out what people really think and what they are made of it. people who know me know that i am an honest person. >> welcome back to this special edition of "hardball." joining me for the spin room is casey hunt and also with us, another great political bo porter of bloomberg to tell us what headlines will be for this debate. let's go to casey hunt. you are in the spin room. there you are, in the dark there with brand paul. go ahead and take over. >> this, nice to see you. we are here with senator brand paul right after this debate. senator, you were talking a minute ago about donald trump, ben carson. what do you think the fallout is? i think ultimately donald trump and ben carson will fall out of the lead. i think there will be one or five people left. come january, it will be a toss up. i think i have a unique message.

i think some of that is out tonight. i am the only fiscal conservative. i think marco rubio after getting a lien brawlers in military spending is not conservative. marco rubio and -- refundable tax credits, which are basically welfare transfer payments, $2 trillion is just not conservative. i'm going to make sure every american and every republican in particular knows that there is a difference. >> your father came in second in the new hampshire primary in 2012. you are running be far behind him. why do you not picking up the support? >> the polls are you are looking at our polls of undecided. 3/4 of the voters are undecided. no, no, who are you thinking about? this is a poll of claimers. we had a poll in kentucky the day before the election that everybody said the democrat was up by five points. the republican won by eight. they were by 13 points in the

last week. we should start discounting pulling into old-fashioned reporting. it i was in minnesota yesterday with 700 hits at the university of minnesota. that is a rising strong campaign. that is not a weak campaign. we need to get over all the emphasis on polls and go out and do real reporting, follow the candidates. thanks. >> thanks. >> thank you very much, senator. back to you, chris. >> spoke to mark halperin. give us your take. two issues with a real disagreement. one was war policy and how aggressive we should have with rand paul in donald trump being the more isolationist, to use that word. on the issue of immigration, clearly it was trump versus bush. saying we shouldn't let them become citizens at some point. trumpet basically saying, shove them back across the border. pretty rough talk. >> kasich was in that debate as

well. there was that talked about taking people out of the country. those were the hot flash moments of the debate without a doubt. overall, you see a debate that solidified rubio and cruz as the class of the field. carson and trump did what they normally do, no reason to believe based on past performance after the debates that they will drop or rise off their performances. i think bush had a performance and brand paul had performances that properly their best debates come at a very needed time for both of them fighting their way back into the conversation. they have more than lived to fight another day. >> we will be back to you tonight. over to donald trump. chris ginseng is with them. >> i felt is a really, really good debate. the moderators were fantastic, all three of them. >> you said you are leading in all the polls, but ben carson

seems to be leading into south carolina. >> the one that just came out, it just came out. we are way up. >> down by one. more importantly, they have him as by far the most likable and you the inverse. >> i think that's because people don't know me. >> chris ginseng asked, question. he didn't like the answer. steve, he didn't like the question at all and then just moved on. >> i don't think he liked any question premised on, that you are not winning all the polls. i think you saw that. now we have casey with trump. we are double-teaming him. >> based on everything i am reading already, so i think it was good. i enjoyed the debate. the moderators were terrific. they were very elegant. it was a very elegant evenings >> you at one point said that carly fiorina kept interrupting. >> i thought she was fine, but

somebody had to tell her that it's time to stop. >> you urged jeb bush to step in. >> i thought he did fine tonight. i thought everybody did fine. i think it was something that was very good for me. but i think everyone did fine. >> what do you need to do pushing forward? >> we just had morning consult come out, 32 to 17 or 18. the polls have been really good. the results of tonight will be very good for me based on what everyone is telling me. >> are you willing to use her own money? >> aybar he started. we are making television. it's not that i need it, but i feel guilty not doing them, to be honest with you. we are making television ads right now. >> positive? >> no, no, positive ads. very positive ads. probably iowa, new hampshire and probably south carolina. >> do you think the moderators were tough enough on ben carson? >> i thought ben handled it well.

i thought the moderators were really good and really elegant, especially after what to lace last week or a couple weeks ago. >> will you be able to upstage ben carson in these polls? >> i'm doing very well. i'm leading in just about everything. let me ask you a question, who had poll position tonight? who have the number one position tonight? >> there were eight of you. >> who have the number one position tonight? >> you, sir. >> okay. thank you. >> donald trump for you, guys. >> that was him, wasn't it? this is the way he talks. eight people up there. there was no pole position. there was no center, but he claimed it. it's an even number of people. >> it's interesting. we are sitting here. we all have the same reaction. big smiles on our faces. you are in an airport. you see him doing a news conference. the man is entertaining as hell.

people react to him with big smiles on their faces. he makes people laugh. he is becoming a better candidate from a temperament perspective. he is calm. >> despite that tourette's moment tonight. >> she clearly drives him crazy. >> carly fiorina. >> to some degree. you saw that play out tonight. i don't think he is going to pay much for that. >> chris ginseng has stopped her carson in hand. >> questions by mr. trump on the campaign trail yesterday. he doesn't understand why talking about raising the hammer is a good thing. can you answer him? >> he cuts i was giving a history of major events happened in my life, that happened to be a major event for me. i realize, you know, what kind of person i was. when i combined that with the

stabbing him attempted stabbing, you know, i realize that my life was not really to turn out what i wanted it to be even though i had turned things around academically. you know, i had a moment, a three-hour moment of careful contemplation, prayer and reading from the book of proverbs that changed my life. >> dr. carson! >> it is donald trump that keeps bringing this up. what do you say to him? >> he believes that it would grant him the advantage. we will see whether it's helpful or not. >> do you think you are going to win voters back despite all this negative publicity over you for the past few days? >> if you look at the polls that have come out since all the negative stuff, i guess the only major poll has been south carolina. he was ahead i 20 points and is back behind by one. i don't know.

>> dr. carson, a couple questions about substance. you were concerned about the last debate, that there wasn't enough substance. i want to make sure i understand what you said. you would be for getting rid of the mortgage deduction and the charity deduction. >> all deductions. >> those two in particular. you are willing to let them go. >> 100% him everything. >> not quite sure i understood keeping the veil in a bank. if -- would you they'll out the banks for government intervention? >> it's not an "a" or "b." it's not fail or bail it out. there is another option, option "c." there's another tier of banks right beneath that one that we can allow people who are in that system to move to if they are going to fail. >> so you would be for letting those people, people that have to withdraw their money and put it in other the bank, but bank of america or whatever that

large bank was will go away? >> absolutely. that's the way capitalism works. >> what do you think the financial applications are? >> if you are good and you do things well, you grow. if you do things poorly, you fail, end of story. >> you are not concerned some people will think that might be overly simplistic? >> i don't think it's simplistic at all. the way socialism work is the government says, well, i better take this and fix this and i better change this and i better create this problem, and then i will solve this problem and look like the good guy and everybody will trust in me. that's just not the system that allows america to go from oh nowhere to the pinnacle of the world in record time. that's not what was going on. >> so tonight you think you turn the page -- >> that was chris jensen getting into the scrum.

four candidates face off tonight in the undercard debate. rick santorum, take a look at what he said when he was asked to name a democrat he admires. >> you know i respect in the democratic party and why i respect them, because they fight! because they are not willing to back down and they are willing to stand up and fight and win, so i respect them because they are willing to take it to us. >> wow. i am joined by rick santorum. what were you thinking about there, senator? >> unfortunately, far too many democrats that i know. look, i give the democratic party a lot of credit. senators that i work with, even this president. he stands up and fights for what he believes. i don't think they are right or it's good for the country, but they are not focused -- folks that shy away from doing battle and want to take it to us and to the media.

they try to get their ideas pushed forward. they do it in the courts, congress, state and local levels. unfortunately, in my mind, they have had a modicum of success. >> do you argue here that the democratic party is the more ferociously partisan of the two parties? >> absolutely. >> really? >> i remember several democratic senators coming over when we got control back in the '90s. what they were most amazed about is that there was a discussion and dissent was allowed. the democratic caucus, there is no dissent. this, i mean, the democratic party is a complete, complete insync. you want to talk about a pup tent party versus a big tent party. they are all on the exact same page on every single issue.

even when they think the president is wrong, they stand behind him. even when it's something unpopular, they line up behind him. it really has become, i think, a very sad display on my part. there is no real difference, differentiation between democrats anymore. they are very much left wing, hard-core progressives. they all line up that way. they fight for their agenda. i give them credit for that. >> what did you think when hillary clinton was asked by rachel maddow the other night to name, if she could, in a limited time pierre a republican running mate if she had to have a republican running mate from the list of you guys running for president, and she wouldn't do it. would you have answered that question with the name of a democrat as your possible running mate? >> one of the democrats in the race right now? >> there are only three. maybe a larger herd. out of those three? >> out of those three, no, not one.

>> it's hard to cross party lines. i thought you might be willing to name a democrat. you are talking about the lockstep republicans. i would thought you would show how you are not in lockstep. i'm giving you that chance again. name a democrat you would run with. >> he is what i would say. look him up i may look at that differently. maybe someone in the cabinet or something. sure, i would certainly consider someone of the other party. as far as vice president, i see vice president as a role that you have someone there who will follow through with what you said you would do. if a vice president, it has to be someone more insync with you. they are potentially someone who would take your place in office. >> who won the debate you were in tonight? >> well, i would have voted for me. i felt very good about the message that we got across.

my whole campaign is focused on working families and doing what we can to start a manufacturing economy, grow it bigger so we can grow that strong middle america. the idea that we have -- and you know this, chris, you come from pennsylvania. we have been so fixated on this only career path in this new economy is high tech workers. >> i know. >> and colleges. you know, let's talk about getting people to work as a graduate from college and learn a skill and be a welder and be something to work for a living. you have plenty of time to go back to school and prove your in the education. i was at this trade show in chicago today. the three guys that stopped at the booth, the three guys that were talking about this set they would put together said we started out as toolmakers and moved our way up. now we are doing trade shows and are part of the management. that's how america will a strong, vibrant middle of

america. i hate to say it. it's both parties that have abandoned the american worker. >> i agree. >> i need a new idea. >> let me ask you about this. all the republicans came out against the minimum wage hike. where are you? >> i am for minimum wage. i'm not for what barack obama would want to do. it would be devastating to a lot of workers. i have said $.50 an hour per year for three years. that would put it back to be much the lower end of the range of where it has been as far as the percentage of workers. i think we need a minimum-wage. i think the idea of a living wage is really distraught to of workers in america. you want to talk about sending jobs overseas, that will send them in droves. >> you are against the minimum wage. $15 an hour, $30,000 a year.

>> as a minimum-wage, sure. >> are you against it or for it? i can't tell. >> at $15? no, i'm not for minimum wage at $15 an hour. i'm for a minimum-wage that does what minimum-wage has before. between 5% and 9% get paid the minimum wage. it was to provide a floor, not try to push all the wages up. that's not what it's for. >> thanks so much. rick santorum, thank you. when we come back, the "hardball" round table will be with me. this is the live coverage of the republican presidential debate out of milwaukee tonight. much more ahead after this. >> for the life of me, i don't know why we have stigmatized vocational education. welders make more money than philosophers. we need more welders and less philosophers. we do. [ applause ]

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♪ it coming up in the next hour, live to milwaukee. the winners, the losers and we will size up everything tonight coming up in the next hour. more from the candidates as well and an endorsement for hillary clinton made right here on this show and the view from the left coast. bradley whitford of west wing will join us tonight and talk about the main event. he was watching. we go for another hour. stick with us. you are watching "hardball" with live coverage of the republican presidential debate. ♪

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♪ good evening. i'm chris matthews. the latest republican debate is over. we have all the highlights. we will try to answer five questions. the one who look the most presidential, the most likable. i love that question, and who made the biggest boo-boo tonight. one of the best reporters around, robert costa.

he is in milwaukee. chris jensen just interview donald trump. let's watch a bit of that. >> you said you are leading in all the poles, but the it is national polls show ben carson up. he is up in south carolina. >> the one came out, morning console just came out. we were way up. >> you are down by one. more importantly, they have him as by far the most likable and you the inverse. are you concerned about that? >> people don't know me. >> he didn't like that question about likability. we will see about likability. he is likable in some ways, i must say. who won tonight? who has your main bar tonight? who is writing who won? you? >> when it comes to winners or losers, it is a status quo debate. trump had a strong night in the sense that he came in with a low-key persona. he tried to bring things back.

he knows likability is an issue. his campaign knows it's an issue. they are trying to present someone who is still a hawk when it comes to immigration and dovish on foreign-policy but more presentable to the party at large. bush was looking for a breakout moment but didn't have one. he showed he had an edge and is still there as a seasoned voice. >> what i thought was clear, that he was an economic nationalist. he doesn't want us fighting overseas battles if he can avoid them. he doesn't want us trading with countries we have and imbalance with. it's all nationalism and a common thing. rubio, on denied hawk, a guy who wants to fight the south china sea fight. he is selling himself as really hawkish. i have no idea what dr. carson's theme was.

everything can be made simpler. we don't really like experts. we can get it down to something so easy. he makes his argument. life is simpler than they tell you. anyway, what do you think? >> you have been driving at this all night. it's spot on when it comes to this economic nationalism. trump's message is pulling all party. it was her anyone defending the banks? no one was doing that. this is a party of wall street, but it's moving away from wall street. carson was able to shrug off the questions about his biography. the rest of his performance was smoking. he shrugged off that question after a long week of scrutiny. that was important for his candidacy. >> moving forward, this campaign now is reaching a point of almost stasis. and even battle between carson and trumpet. a secondary battle between cruz and rubio down below. several points back.

with bush and kasich and the rest desperately trying to get into the second tier. >> i think the biggest battle i am paying attention to is rubio versus cruz. we know about the outsiders, trump and carson, but which one of these senators, who's going to emerge as the champion of their wing? i think cruz was coming up on that trump message. he is ready in case one of the outsiders fade to catapult ahead. >> hold on there. thank you for tonight. get to bed. robert costa. don kasich took part in the debate. he joins us now. thank you for joining us. i guess the big fight he got involved in was over immigration. you charged it was silly and not an adult conversation to be talking about, sending 11 million people back. is that what you think trump is telling or is that in an emblem of how angry he is about illegal immigration, that he doesn't tend to go that far? >> on that, snake oil.

that's the craziest thing. we are not going to take 10, 11 million people living in this country and separate them from their families, their children and then try to send them back over the border. of course we have to control the border, chris. when people sneak in, we have to send them back. we have 11 million people here. they will have to pay a fine and assimilate. part of my job, part of what drives me is, i want to make sure we win in the fall. whether it's immigration to send everybody away or abolishing medicare, which one of the candidates has backed off of or whether it's tax plans that put us trillions of dollars into debt. those things are not going to stand the light of day in a fall against hillary clinton. we have to make sure that what we are proposing is solid, realistic, practical and can move the country forward. i'm going to keep doing that in this campaign. we are doing very well.

come on up and ride the bus with us in new hampshire and you will see. >> i'll be up there, governor. why do you think trump singled out carly fiorina for interrupting when you work i will believe the jack in the box out there. you were jumping in all the time. he never went after you accept once when he said he didn't want to bother talking to you because he wasn't -- you aren't as rich as he is. >> i have learned how to be more aggressive back in the old days when i was in the united states house and you guys wouldn't pay any attention to me. i had to get in your way. part of it really is -- i want to tell people what i am for and what i have done. i want to talk to them about leadership, chris. i'm not going to be a potted plant. i went through that in the second debate. i don't want to go through that again. i'm not going to go through it again, and i'm going to increasingly speak out on these proposals that i think are just not worth the paper they are printed on. >> two big fight in your party.

they agreed on minimum wage and tax cuts and regulation. everything is fine now. i understand that. the two big states were formed colony -- how often we get involved, how hawkish we get. between rand paul and donald trump and somewhere over the more hawkish marco rubio and the others, where is the republican foreign-policy after the war in iraq was not one of the two? is it aggressive to go into troops with syria? one was saying put troops into syria -- iraq, rather. are we in that vote? is that where they are? >> no, no. i took us around the world, as you know. i have a dealing with the baltics, finland, ukraine, what we should do in syria, egyptians, jordanians and the gulf states. i do not support the president's plant, his idea of putting 50

people in syria because i don't want to get the u.s. involved in a civil war. i do want to destroy isis. i would do it in a coalition with a lot of people and destroy them. to slowly walk ourselves into syria is a terrible mistake. ultimately it will suck us into a civil war where we don't belong. we ought to have the know-how fly zones and provide support for the oppositions to assad. u.s. trip should not be involved. part of the problem is that we ultimately were involved with a civil war there. civil wars do not work for this country. support the people that share your views and go where we know where the they are at stake and where we can win and come home. that is something i learned after eight team long years on the defense committee with republican and democrat great minds. >> let's nail down many people have been here a while and become citizens.

we understand the issue. the other part was to say no more legal hiring. that part was never enforced. why don't we go back to that idea of a balanced program, something to help the people out who were here but also stop the flow of illegal immigration? i think that would get people to be less anxious about illegal immigration. and no one ever talks about that. they argue one side or the other, send them all back or what? or nothing. that seems to be the two choices. >> i mentioned reagan tonight in the '86 plan and what he favored. i believe we ought to have a worker program where people can come in and go back legally. i think we should finish and control the border. if people then come in, they ought to go back, no excuses. for the 11 million people who are here, they get a path to legalization if they are law-abiding.

make sure that these visas are handled the right way. may be a total overhaul in we let into the country. at the end of the day, we need guest worker program. this is not that complicated. it's actually pretty simple, unless you listen to people who yell loud. >> i know. i know. i know. i know we have an answer but you refuse to say it. thank you so much for coming on tonight. >> thank you. >> the go back to casey hunt who has found somebody interesting in the spin room. jeb bush's campaign manager. thank you. bringing your guest. take over. >> thanks, chris. yes. this room is full of interesting room. danny diaz, bush campaign manager. it had pretty high expectations. did governor bush do what he needed to do tonight to complete this reboot process? >> i think tonight was an opportunity to highlight that governor bush is the most repair person to be president. we wanted to achieve a few

things, litigate the case against hillary clinton and talk about our policies and how they impact everyday americans. from our perspective, highlight the depth of knowledge in domestic and foreign-policy. i think we achieved those goals. >> the governor came out pretty strongly on immigration tonight, outlining his position as opposed to donald trump and some others on that stage. is this him finally losing the primary to win the general election? >> you know he gets asked about this question every day. from our perspective, highlighting the depth of knowledge. he believes this is a component to get high sustained economic throat. he thinks it's important. it has been over 30 years since it has been addressed. it is a big issue. he has a record of tackling the big issues. >> thanks for your time. i would note that marco rubio by contrast to jeb bush has not

been as aggressive in stating the policy positions that he has taken. instead saying things like he would repeal daca, the executive order that allows children to stay in united states. chris. >> he does talk about it with some enthusiasm, checking to see if you are here to work. casey hunt, thank you for that. i am joined by gwen moore from the state that hosted this tonight. i understand that you have something to announce tonight. if you want to get to it, it would be fine with me. >> i can tell you that no one has said it better than maria tonight when her last question to marco rubio was, hillary clinton has more experience than all of you put together. to have listened to this debate tonight, and even the kids table debate, i heard numbers of absolutely absurd ideas,

ridiculous, naïve, pollyanna. they all jumped on hillary clinton because indeed, they recognize that she is the strongest adversary and really the air, i believe, to the next presidency. tonight, i am endorsing full heartedly hillary clinton. i think that she, whether we are talking about immigration policy or whether we are talking about the middle east or the muslim countries and that conflict, whether we are talking about fighting for the middle class and putting people back to work, she has the best ideas and would be the best president for us. >> thanks so much. great to have you on. we were going to have you on earlier this evening, but we couldn't.

thank you for sticking around. with us here in washington, eugene robinson. he is the columnist, pulitzer prize winner, one of the greats of "the washington post." howard fineman is the political analyst. everybody is a general here. >> all of these epaulets. now that we have the wise people here. we have the masters of the cloth called here in rembrandt style. can you -- i remember in the old days i would go into the spin room and daresay, who had won? i had said it a couple times. i would say it. you might as well listen because that becomes the truth. today there isn't a scrum of people. >> also, if you look at what

people were saying, they are all over the map. him people think that bush had a good night, for example. i didn't quite see it that way. >> it's always the people that want him to have a good night. >> exactly. i thought charitably maybe he gives some faith to his backers and supporters in his inner circle. i don't think he connected with the republican primary voters tonight. trump and carson are trump and carson. i think they are immune to anything that happens. >> jeb was doing his best. his best isn't passionate. i don't know why he is there. >> yeah. >> that's a big question to have unanswered. why are you there? >> you kind of know why donald trump is there. i'm not sure i know why and carson is there, but we know that he is. >> he is drafted. the people that like him like him regardless of what he says. >> what was interesting about tonight to me were the fights over immigration and war policy

because they showed these big fissures that run through the middle of the republican party. it was quite fascinating to hear those eric vigorously. >> even when you were not allowed to voice the action to the hawks' line. if you said anything against a hot disposition, we've got to go to were, it wasn't said tonight. nobody said 9/11 tonight. >> they didn't, but they came out with different ways of talking about how to deal with putin and how to deal with a friend issues in syria. the issue is, they were trying to bring in finances, funding the war, trying to have a stance to fight against islamic jihadists. >> why military exercises in the baltic states? why are we putting the missile defense in poland? all of these i would argue are aggressive signals to putin that we want to fight.

>> having the special ops on the ground with military equipment in syria and we are not in a combat role as of this moment also makes it seem like we could be there prepared to fight. but the bottom line is that we are in a different time, different day. after 9/11, we had al qaeda. al qaeda is not forgotten either, but we have isis as well. we have to be ready. >> one, who was out there advocating? the baltic states, they want more troops in germany. they want to bring back the defense system in poland. every step of the world sounds like the neocon argument that we must be in the face of our adversaries and be ready to fight and be really aggressive about it. >> with all due respect to rand paul, who had a very good night tonight by his standards. >> he planted his flag. >> he did plant his flag. if it were only rand paul in the

military involvement argument, it wouldn't be an argument. you remember what happened to his father. >> he was stuffed. >> he was stuffed, okay, years ago. but now you have donald trump who is saying, wait a minute, here is donald trump, the big, tough donald trump, tough on china, tough on trade, tough on immigration saying, we don't want to send troops in there. >> that is his nationalistic argument. >> i know, but it makes it more serious within the party. dr. carson is no egg interventionist by his past record. tonight he said he wants to destroy the caliphate. >> by going into iraq. >> what does he mean? >> that made no sense. >> he is -- his spokesperson would not back that up. >> it makes no sense. carson, i agree with robert costa who said that carson ended up brushing off the personal attacks.

carson on substance tonight, whether it was banks and economic all his feet were foreign-policy, to me, looked, to me, looked like a guy way in over his head. >> he was mad that may not mean anything to his supporters, but a translated that way. >> when it came to minimum-wage, he made a very big mistake. he said something to the effect -- i have to put my glasses on. sorry. he said, one minimum-wage does not fit all. he said the black teen on implement rate was the problem. that's not it. the black unemployment rate overall is the problem. 9.2%. the overall unemployment rate as of october 2015, 15.9%. he has to get his numbers right. especially the man running for president who is african-american. you get the african-american unemployment numbers wrong that are historically larger than any other group. >> you ever hear someone say they are against a living wage? >> they were all against it.

that's interesting. they are laying down some markers here, the republicans. we are not going to mess around on a minimum-wage. they were utterly and totally against it all the way along except again for kasich, who just prove the exception to the rule time and again. i agree with mark helprin. rubio showed that in terms of skill of this kind of free-for-all televised debate, they both bring particular skills. rubio's skill is to flash that smile, which is halfway between a barracuda and a choir boy. >> yeah. >> and repeat his mantra over and over again, his neocon -- >> are you thinking of brown freed? >> cruz is a shrewd debater. >> did you sense those fellas came in with prefab speech parts and jabbed them in? >> yes pierre cruz is very quick. he is extemporaneous.

>> for occasions to reinsert his preprogram. his sinfoniettas are not bad. they are pretty good. >> your very interesting pieces to a larger symphony. >> i'm going to use my violin for it. >> our coverage continues, including reaction from the rubio campaign. this is a special edition of "hardball", our place for politics. >> for the life of me, i don't know why we have stigmatized vocational education. welders make more money than philosophers. we need more welders and less philosophers. we do. [ applause ]

♪ the democrats are laughing. because if republicans joined democrats as the party of amnesty, we will lose.

>> welcome back to "hardball." for more reaction on the republican debate, i am joined by hallie jackson from the side of the debate it up in milwaukee. you spoke with marco rubio's campaign manager. what did you get? >> reaction tonight from team rubio, the line that they are getting out. they feel that marco won and that senator rubio won the prior debates as well. they are feeling strong headed into what is a slower season as become into thanksgiving in a couple of weeks. interesting notes, that moment, the most facebooked moment is that rubio/rand paul exchange that we saw. i asked about that. terry sullivan, the campaign manager said, quote, i think he cleaned rand's clock. they feel they came out of that looking strong. they had these main threads that emerged, one, foreign-policy, the other, immigration and the distinctions between the candidates.

on national security, i want to tell you what the campaign manager said. he says, this is what the republican party is about. it's about having a strong presence in the world, a strong foreign-policy. he says that senator rubio embodies that and references ronald reagan. they are feeling like they came out on top in that exchange. you may see that continue to play out over the coming weeks. overall, the campaign feels like it's entering the next phase, the next stage of this race given that we are now in mid-november. you will start seeing, not just the holidays, but fundraising continuing on before we hit january and that it month right before iowa, chris. >> thank you. good report there. thank you so much. anyway, francesca chambers is the white house correspondent for the daily mail. she joins us from milwaukee as well. i think that was true from my perspective back here, that senator rubio went in there as the biggest talk in the country and he would shake his cup for more campaign contributions from fellow hawks.

he would raise the flag around the world, whatever it took. i thought more effectively he was challenged more than the rubio people thought i rand paul, who state his flag and said we are putting too much money into wars that will get us nowhere. i thought that fight was joined with him i certainly donald trump. that is another guy that thinks that american economic nationalisms says stop spending world around the world. your reporting tonight, who won? >> i don't know that anyone specifically won the debate tonight, but rand paul did have a good moment when he hit marco rubio with the charge that he is not necessarily conservative. because if he were, he wouldn't want to spend money on wars around the world, as you just noted. jeb bush also had a good night. carly fiorina came back. last debate, she kind of faded into the background. it she came out strong on the economy this time.

>> she may benefit from the same sort of nasty approach by trump. last time trump made fun of her appearance. this time he told her to shut up. i think sometimes that helps the opponent him especially when there is a gender difference. your thoughts. >> when he was talking to reporters, chris, he noted that he was hitting her because she was interrupting other people. i was on the rope line with mr. trump and asked if he thought that john kasich should be on stage when they were having their back and forth. he suggested he didn't have to listen to him or take it from him and noted that he has a successful business and suggested that john kasich doesn't have the chops to be up there. but he told me tonight that is not how he feels about john kasich and that he actually likes him. >> but he didn't say that on the stage. he said, you don't have the economic background and the success story that i have. i am rich, you are not, shut up. he really did say that tonight. that was schoolyard behavior.

he told the woman to be quiet because he just felt like it. that did seem like tourette's are there was no reason for him to jump out like that. he wasn't being interrupted. why would he care about somebody else being interrupted? it and instinct. >> he doesn't like women. >> it's one interpretation. >> yeah, whatever. >> donald trump has a certain amount of aggression that he needs to get out at any one point. he didn't really want to take it out on ben carson. >> that would be dumb. >> he criticized carson from long distance over the weekend, but standing next to him he was smart enough tactically not to do any such thing because it would have backfired immediately on him. >> you could tell that donald trump realized when he let that slip he made a mistake. not only that, but you could see donald trump was prepared. he has been tested. he is going through the policy wonks, the rendition of whatever you call it, the debate prep. he has been doing it.

he realized the body language, that he made a mistake. for him to go back and apologize to the press or explain what he did, that is saying something. >> francesca back in here for a second. what will the headline be in your paper tomorrow? >> well -- >> why are you laughing? i want that information. >> well, what i have been writing about has been the immigration battle. it has been john kasich's standout moment. whether that was a good or bad standout moment remains to be seen. he hit trump hard, elbowing jeb bush out of the way saying, it's my turn. that may be too aggressive for some voters. some voters may not agree with him on immigration. they may not agree with john kasich and may think he was in the wrong party's debate tonight. >> this 11 million deportation is a marker he is laying down. it's not that he will do it. he is saying he will do

something to stop illegal immigration and deal with it. everybody just talks. i'm going to do something. they can imagine the wall. but nobody really thinks he's going to uproot people that go around door to door looking for mexican-americans and sending them home? you think he would? yes? >> i didn't say a word. i just looked at you. >> no one is getting to the right of him. >> with his immigration, he mentioned -- he referenced the wall -- the israeli wall. that was interesting because he has always talked about this wall with the pretty door. he left the pretty door out but gave an example. you can see he is fine to bring the policy together. i don't know if he will go door to door, but i do believe that he will be a maverick it comes to that. >> that will be a controversial analogy down the road. >> have you seen that wall? it's an ugly wall. it's all covered with graffiti.

>> it will be the controversy that trump wants to invite. he's not afraid. >> oh, yeah. this is good stuff. anyway. this is what he wants. francesca chambers, thank you. thanks for coming on. >> thanks, chris. >> i love pinning you down. give me the headline! i want to thank harold fineman, able rain and eugene robinson here with me now. up next from aspiring presidential candidates to the west wing, bradley whitford joins me. there he is. looking very thoughtful. later, new polling on how these republicans matchup with hillary clinton. the latest polling we just got late today, hillary clinton does just fine against these guys except for carson. that's the one she has a problem with. this is "hardball's" coverage of the republican presidential debate. we will be right back after this. >> how is it conservative to add $1 trillion in military expenditures? you cannot be a conservative if you keep promoting new programs that you are not going to pay for. >> radical jihadists crucifying

christians, a radical cleric trying to get a nuclear weapon. a chinese taking over the south china sea. yes, i believe the world is a safer -- the world is a safer and better place when america is the strongest military power in the world.

♪

welcome back to "hardball." the biggest applause lines in the debate went to the candidates who -- where we are at with me now. bradley whitford, who managed to create a white house denizen that millions loved. they loved it when you were there. josh lyman on the hit show, the west wing. also a native son of wisconsin. welcome to "hardball." the drama tonight was certainly there. i thought it was fascinating. lots of drama on immigration and thing got on war policy there are some voices there tonight. >> yeah, it was interesting. generally this field, i feel, makes -- i felt makes ronald reagan look like abbey hoffman and herman cane look like winston churchill, but there were some competing voices from

rand paul and kasich was certainly agitated and seemed to try and, you know, bring the card under control. >> what did you make of trump tonight? tonight. >> i was watching it. i never understood why trump's candidacy has been taken seriously. i think the hateful things, the xenophobic statements he has made are unforgivable. it's a mystery to me that he has done as well as he has. i felt like he looked a little wobbly up there. >> what did you make of another voice out there when fiorina, carly fiorina, she was out there tonight jumping in at one point. a lot of them were jumping out. along came trump. let's watch what he said. >> you can be strong without being involved in every civil

war around the world. ronald reagan -- >> how would you respond? >> ronald reagan was strong. >> ronald reagan's walked away from reykjavik. >> i'm not finished with my time. >> why does she keep interrupting everybody? >> you have daughters. what do you think that said to women? >> it's pretty hostile towards women. you know, he has a history of that. what is a mystery to me is statements like that don't seem to hurt him. he has done these things before. obviously it doesn't upset. >> last time he made fun of her appearance. he put her back in the game. she rose up and almost twice where she was. may help her this time. i do think the country is sensitive to that, thanks to hillary. the country is very sensitive to trying to keep back women to an equal shot. >> it was interesting watching

tonight because you are not seen the lockstep republican party of old. you are seeing these different factions. you are seeing the born again. you are seeing the establishment. you are seen interventionists, isolationists in another country they might be three separate parties. >> well said. my phrase was lord of the flies. a bunch of kids i got stuck on an island trying to make up their own government. it's kind of frightening. last thought? >> no. i was just going to say what is interesting to me about the republican mythology is that there were these good old days. putting aside the fact that -- and i think it's in their mythologies in the fifties, putting aside the fact that a lot of black people couldn't

vote and if you word a you probably committed suicide in a closet. it was a time when we created this great economic engine. that was the result of the new deal and of investment and everything these people are advocating against. it i think they have a big problem. >> exactly right. if it weren't for franklin roosevelt and the g.i. bill and the opportunity it gave all these working-class guys to become middle class guys and upper-middle-class guys, it wouldn't have been the '60s. >> you've got that right. one last point, if i may. scott walker's disapproval rating is 70%. >> ed schultz will be flooding to the air after that news. thank you so much. thank you so much. we have much more coming ahead, including how these republican candidates matchup against a likely, likely democratic nominee hillary clinton. don't go anywhere. the new stats coming out.

we held it for this time of the night to show it to you. you are watching "hardball" from the republican convention debate night. >> i have been an innovator my entire career. i really don't care what special interests or lobbyists have to say. i have a job to do when i take over a public office.

♪ the bottom line is, if you want less income inequality, move to a state with a republican governor or mayor. >> that was nice. welcome back to "hardball" coverage, live coverage of the presidential debate. most of the debate tonight was at a higher level then move to a city that was a republican

mayor. that was baby talk. i am joined by steve schmidt, who knows his stuff. howard fineman, director of the huffington post. molly hemingway. we are joined by joan walsh. a print newspaper. criticizing the transpacific the ship trade deal, donald trump joined a lot of the people on the hard left who said the agreement didn't deal with china's currency manipulation. he was correct on that point by rand paul. let's watch. >> if you look at the way china and india and almost everybody takes advantage of the united states, china in particular because they are so good. it's the number one of user of this country. if you look at the way they take advantage, it's through currency manipulation. it's not even discussed in the almost 6000-page agreement. it's not even discussed.

i say it a very bad deal and should not be approved. if it is approved, it will be more bad trade deals, more loss of jobs for our country. we are losing jobs like nobody has ever lost jobs before. it i want to bring jobs back into this country. >> gerard, we might want to point out china is not part of this deal. >> true. that's true. >> there is an issue of currency manipulation from china, which is an issue that his people left and right said. >> we need a fresh hand of thinking here tonight. we watched this for two hours. people felt that trump did okay. the only loser among this secular crowd was dr. carson. he seemed to be in over his head on economics and foreign-policy. he didn't have anything thoughtful to say except that these are not obligated issues. they are easy issues. your thoughts. >> he was nearly incoherent.

it was almost hard to watch. we have talked about his remarks about defeating isis in iraq and how it's easy. carly fear reno went over her time consistently. ben carson didn't even use his time. to get back to trump for a second, i thought it was amazing that he led off this debate by telling us that he thinks american wages are too high. we are living through a crisis of wage stagnation and even wage decline. especially for those white working-class voters who we have all identified as part of his base. i wonder how that will go over. >> they are wage earners too. >> right. they are not collecting interest. we learned something tonight. that was kind of shocking to me that he would boldly say that wages are too high when quite the opposite is true right now. >> working wages. you are founding. >> i think he was specifically talking about low income jobs

and if you have an artificially inflated wage. >> he didn't say that. >> he didn't say that, but that's not even true. >> he was general. >> his focus was on youth unemployment, particularly black youth. >> trump wasn't talking. >> that added -- i understand that argument. if you are a kid working part-time as opposed to someone leading a family. >> trump was being specific. >> trump said wages. >> i think he's talking about unions. >> how did you know that? >> he's talking about unions and not the minimal wage? >> they need to compete. >> he was arguing the classic argument, this inflates the cost of labor. >> with some caveats and nuances on that stage, for the most part, the republicans were strong on opposition to increasing the minimum wage. >> yes.

>> and they did it with heart, and they did it with the philosophy. in the case of donald trump, he is making a political that that his strong stance on things like immigration, for example, will appeal to voters who otherwise might say, wait a minute. maybe we would like it a little bit. >> did you hear the different arguments raised today? dr. carson said that young people need to get jobs. it's harder to get a job if it's $15 an hour. how many people will hire kids for that? the other one is competing with technology. people will bring in robots and technology to replace you. that did sound logical. is that the motive? or is the motive to appeal to the chambers of commerce and the business guys out there who have an interest in keeping costs down? >> that to the midterm elections, 2014. huge republican year. minimum-wage increases in deep red streets. they all past.

this is a bad issue for republicans. when you talk about $15 an hour, the point that on top is trying to make, a competitiveness., the point that marco rubio is making from a technology point. you are sitting at the bar, one of the rest of the the airport, there are no more waiters or waitresses. you punch in your order on the ipad and food comes out. they are able to reduce that workforce very substantially. we do need to be cognizant of how to move people up the economic ladder. but i think that republicans sometimes come across as insensitive on these issues as opposed to pivoting into an economic road argument that what we want to do is get people moving up the ladder. winston churchill said, the efforts between the left and the right is the difference between the line and the latter. we want to be the latter. >> ben carson did a better job of that. >> like in new jersey, the story of new jersey, do you know this? in new jersey, you can't hump

your own gas. it's always a full-service. it's one way to keep people working. i used to pump gas as a kid. what do you think of that? just create jobs. some things you can't do. >> there is the argument that i thought was resonating quite a bit, that welding is a noble profession and that we need to stop denigrating these jobs. >> who denigrates those jobs? >> i think all the time we asked the. >> whose we? >> if you haven't gotten a degree, you are not worthy. >> do you do that? >> i hear it frequently. >> do you denigrate working people? >> i have working people in my family. >> i don't understand this denigrating. i don't do it. >> people on the left work to get women and nonwhite people into those welding jobs and into those union jobs and into the labor unions. i do feel it's a strawman. >> hollywood does. you hear that.

>> molly is 100 percent correct on this. we have the deemphasis of vocational training. the point that marco rubio made very effectively, we need more welders and less philosophers. >> i don't like this general guilt responsibility. i don't put that on anybody. you got to get your car fixed, you try to fix it. we have new polling that shows hillary clinton running strong against all the republican field. you are watching the "hardball", live coverage of the republican presidential debate. there are more words in the irs code than there are in the bible, and not one of them is as good. [ applause ] >> every one reflects a carveout or a subsidy, and it's all about empowering the washington cartel.

♪ wait until you see what hillary clinton will do to this country and how she will drown us in debt. believe me, hillary clinton is coming for your wallet, everybody. >> hillary clinton is coming for your wallet. steve, molly and howard as well as joan walsh from new york. hillary clinton was a popular target tonight on stage. occluding to a new mcclatchy marist pole, she beats all of them in a hypothetical matchup.

she beats some more handedly than others. if the general election were held today, she would be donald trump by 15 points, 56-41. ted cruz and carly fiorina by ten points. jeb bush by eight rubio by five. against carson, she wins by the smallest margin of two points. clinton, 50, carson 48. howard. >> i know how to read that chart. >> tell me how. >> top most number is the nastiest republican, at least by reputation. closest number to hillary is the nicest guy by reputation. you have donald trump, nasty, cruz, nasty, fiorina, kind of nasty. jeb bush, not sure. marco is smiling. ben carson, gentle as a flower. >> the nicer you are, that's the way i read that. >> you are chuckling.

>> i think it's as good as any other answer. i think ben carson is a placeholder for people who are waiting for someone to emerge, who is nicer. i think people really like what they think they know about him. they don't know him, chris. as they get to know him, i believe he will fade. >> you believe he is dr. parking lot. >> people are driving by. >> just the fact there are so many candidates, it makes it easier for her to beat everybody. >> 55%, those republicans in there would reject donald trump to vote for hillary clinton. >> that's right. a lot of women too. >> that does it for us. the special edition of "hardball" live for the republican presidential debate. tune in tomorrow at 7:00 eastern for more "hardball." our coverage continues here on msnbc. amerivest selects the funds and manages your portfolio.

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what. you don't have a desk bed? don't be left in the dark. get proactive alerts 24/7. comcast business. built for business. tonight on "all in" -- >> this is a strange election, isn't it? man. >> it's debate night in america. all eyes are on marco rubio and ben carson at the fourth republican debate. >> man, is he sweating. >> tonight proving the economic debate with a look at each candidate's plan for america. >> we cut taxes. >> we are reducing taxes. >> if we cut taxes we can bring it back. >> a look at the fore shadowed attack from bush and trump. >> you should show up to work. >> and where each candidate comes down on the dark side. >> i hated darth vader. now i feel sorry for him. >> and the pyramids. >> joseph built the pyramids to store grain. >> hillary clinton's com