picture anymore does all the fire turn to rubio? we started to see the rest of the field, listening to laura ingraham, that is all they talk to is listening to marco rubio, talking about immigration. will that be the thing that kills him in the primary? >> we knew this moment was coming, and today is where it will be an ongoing fight. thank you for joining us, we'll be right back with more mtv daily tomorrow. but steve kornacki picks up our coverage right now on msnbc right now. >> right now on msnbc, immigration reform and the republicans, the 2016 candidates go at each other on amnesty, and there is more on donald trump's plan to deport 11 million undocumented immigrants. and also breaking news from lebanon where several dozen people are killed, many more

injured in two suicide bomb blasts in beirut. we will have all the latest on that. and a depression-era banking law may take center stage at the debate, i'll explain why. i am steve kornacki, on the gop campaign trail. and at the heart of it, immigration, the candidates are trading jabs right and left, marco rubio taking jabs at cruz, cruz right back, and then donald trump going after ben carson. while rubio's popularity is rising, the other members are attacking him as a member of the gang of 8 and the immigration reform bill. right now, cruz and rubio are in an epic back and for the. >> i like rubio, he is a friend of mine, i respect him. >> do you think there is any difference -- >> it is not complicated that on

the fight over amnesty in congress, the gang of 8 bill that was the brain child of chuck schumer and barack obama, that would have granted amnesty to 12 million people here illegally. that i stood with the american people and led the fight. >> a supporter of legalizing people who are in the country illegally. in fact, when the senate bill was proposed he proposed legalizing people who were here legally. he proposed giving them work permits. if you look at it, i don't think our policies are very different. >> my idea is that talk is cheap, where you know how people are on their sponsors, the fact is, the gang of 8 is where everybody agreed to vote on a bill that would enforce it from this perspective.

>> and donald trump is embroiled in an immigration quagmire on his own. nbc's katie tur grilled him. >> dwight eisenhower sent millions of people, million and a half illegal immigrants, he sent them out. >> they would drop immigrants off in the desert. others were shipped off cargo ships in hellish conditions, how would your plan be different? >> very humanely done. very important? >> how? >> well, it's called good management. >> that is 11 million people. >> but katie, it will be very, very humanely done. >> joining me now, victoria defrancisco, and susan

delpercio, a lot of people look at this and say this could ultimately boil down to cruz versus rubio, the establishment versus the tea party. yet both of them are trying to one-up each other in terms of immigration. >> and senator marco rubio's issues with the team they built, that was problematic. he is moving away from it. he needs to state his position a little more clearly. but ted cruz has never done a darn thing to get any piece of legislation passed. all he has done is try to stop it. that is all he has on his records, he says just words. he never worked to get an immigration bill passed, he only worked to stop one. i think that will run a little thin very quickly. >> in that whole back and for the -- forth, ted cruz voted

against it, but before he did that he tried to add an amendment to it and went to the senate floor and this is what he said. >> if this amendment is adopted to the current bill the effect would be that those 11 million under this current bill would still be eligible for rpi status. they would still be eligible for legal status. >> so brian, i'm curious, maybe you could explain this one to us. in the minds of conservative voters here who are opposed to anything they would define as amnesty, both cruz and rubio are saying well, he supported some form of it. rubio, by being with a gang of 8, cruz, by voting for the amendment. >> marco rubio was part of the gang of 8 and pushed for the bill. he was a leader and actually went on rush limbaugh's program and promoted it.

he definitely took a leadership position and teamed up with democrats in pushing the bill. and ted cruz is more reactive and offering an amendment to the bill to try to get his ideas included in that legislation. and i don't know how it will all play out but right now it's a tough fight. immigration is a big issue and we'll see how it plays out in iowa and new hampshire. >> and a bigger picture where you think the republican party is going on, after the 2012 election immigration and the autopsy report that the rnc put together, you know, why did we lose the election? they identified the immigration as a key issue, and thought the party needed to moderate on it. that is where rubio's involvement in the gang of 8 initially came from. so we're looking at people trying to move to the right on this one. >> we're seeing them consistently move to the right on this one, what will happen with rubio, he will say look, i was part of the gang of 8 but i no longer agree with it. instead let's focus on border

enforcement, and he will not budge on it, but if you just say enforcement, once he gets into the general i think he can take his participation in the gang of 8 which right now in the primary season is a liability and turn it around, reframe it and use it to reach out to the middle of the road voters. latinos in particular, mexican/americans outside of florida. so i do think that if he can walk that fine line that will be his ticket to the white house. >> it is easy to see how toxic it is in the republican party to be seen as too far to the left or the middle. john kasich stood up and said trump's plan to deport the undocumented 11 million, this was the response, here is ruthlerush limbaugh talking about john kasich after that comment.

here he comments. >> think about the family, come on, folks, who are we? come on, think about the family -- we're not going to send 11 million people home. come on! what am i doing here? you people are all idiots. >> and they said which of these candidates they asked republican voters would be best dealing with immigration? donald trump, then marco rubio, all the way at 10, bush at five. trump really manages to stand on it. you look at the fighting between rubio and cruz, trump is saying we can wind up people and turn them out of the country. >> he is not going to say how he will do it. >> but it's not bothering the party. >> not yet. >> but what he will -- what he

is doing is for jeb bush, for marco rubio, and others is he is calling out trump. i think it is great that john kasich keeps going at it that way. because i think trump will have to explain the deportation cases, whatever they may be, and how he will actually do it. the problem he will have is eventually he won't be able to say how he deports 11 million people because he can't. and that will make him look like using words as a politician to appease the public and they're smarter than that. >> do you think trump will be tripped up by not specifically saying how he will get 11 million people out of here? >> i think susan is absolutely right. at some point trump has to explain how he will put meat on the bone and get this done. his campaign messages, being

tough on immigration, he has messages with this tax bill. and primarily he led with his chin, his chin was on immigration and if he can't back it up and have a specific blend how he is going to do it that is acceptable. i don't know how he will make it across the finish line. it's a very difficult thing to run your campaign, a core message on immigration and not specifically say exactly what you will do to effectuate that goal. >> another thing, victoria, we talk about the 2012 report. if republicans don't move to the middle on their platform on immigration, but we do have two possibilities that two cuban americans, ted cruz and marco rubio, this could come down to a race between two cubans for the race for the republican party. >> i think there is a descriptive part of the heritage, but the immigration,

we come back to that. the liability, the gang of 8 bill would help. ted cruz has specifically been against. i did want to add on an additional layer with regards to trump and the immigration and the rhetoric, the fact he said he would deport people humanely, i saw it as an advance. he talked about latinos in a very negative light, as drug dealers and criminals, but the fact he was using a softer tone i thought was interesting. is the tone in the republican party going to change? i don't know, but that in itself is of note to me. >> he is offering something right now. that a big chunk of the republican base is wanting to hear but nobody is saying. he is saying yes, it is possible to take 11 million people in this one illegally and get them out of here. no other candidate is willing to go there, that will count for something politically. >> again, i think it will

account for something politically negatively. if it was able to be done, don't you think we would have seen something to be done handling illegal immigration. the fact is donald trump is all talk when it comes to this and that is what he likes. he thinks he can get away with it. by doing it humanely and under good management? what is that exactly? i have no idea, what will it cost? how will he determine that somebody has lived in this country, a 15-year-old who was born here, we know that is another issue, will he just pull them away and put them in another country where they were not born because he says according to his comments they will go back to the country where they came from. what happens if they were born here? that is another problem. so i think people will start to get specific or look for specifics, especially from donald trump on that. he will always own part of it. he will own 20, 25% of this. and come off as a leader because he is willing to say the most extreme things, rhetoric on it. at the end of the day i don't think that is going to be enough

to get him over the line. >> thank you all for joining us. and coming up, breaking news from beirut where two explosions killed 43 people. we'll have more on that. plus, developing tonight, the university of missouri naming a new interim president. will it help to bring tensions down on campus? and a new admission on ben carson who is questioned on inconsistencies in his life, what he is now saying about those stories in his best selling books. 50% more data for the same price. i like this metaphor. oh, it's even better with funnel cakes. but very sticky. now get 15 gigs for the price of 10. hey! how are you?g? where are we watching the game? you'll see. i think my boys have a shot this year. yeah, especially with this new offense we're running... i mean, our running back is a beast.

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the republican party's stance on immigration is the subject of tonight's poll question. and it is this. will the immigration issue hurt republicans in the 2016 election? go to polls.msnbc.com and weigh in. this holiday i can count on someone's kid mistaking me for santa. i'm so sorry. come on sweetie. it's okay. and knowing right when my packages arrive.

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two suicide bombings in beirut killed at least 43 people and left another 239 wounded today. video has emerged that purportedly shows the scene of the first explosion and then briefly the second one. lebanese authorities say a third attacker was killed by the blast before he could detonate his own bomb. isis has claimed responsibility for the explosions. if that claim is true it would mark the group's expansion into yet another country. the attacks occurred in a shiite area of the city that is known as a hezbollah stronghold. he is an msnbc contributor, so

steve, this claim of responsibility from isis, how plausible is this in. >> i think it is very plausible, isis is not jumping into every incident in the region and taking credit for it. isis has shown an ability to penetrate very strong areas, whether it is the airport, or strongholds in lebanon, not a place you would expect to see extremists of the sunni rebels. >> and expanding into lebanon, what is that in terms of their strategic mission? >> well, i think they're basically taking the fight to people who they perceive as their enemy. john kerry spoked about isis and a vice. it shows it is not a vice. they have the ability to deploy bombs and dispatch as we have

seen in this case, two palestinians and two lebaneses at a theater. we know that they are at least wary parts of this stronghold in lebanon, so what i think we've seen them do is be able to penetrate strongholds. >> and if both are proven to be isis, is it surprising, the ability to isis now has to carry out attacks like this? does this suggest an acceleration. >> just think about it. from the moment in which the russians began to deploy forces and bombing, to the point where they deployed forces allegedly in egypt is a remarkably short period of time. so the ability to enact that while secretary kerry said they are being squeezed by a 65-member allied nation against

them is remarkable. and they are expanding the battlefield. they are expanding the battlefield. they're raising up and ratcheting up the fear level that many average innocent citizens throughout the world are worrying about. this becomes a big propaganda issue when you look at what they're able to do and deploy under very stressed circumstances. >> there is already polling out there that shows the majority of americans support ground troops in syria to combat isis. we have here in the wake of the airplane, that is the kind of number that grows every time there is an event like this. what more can the u.s. do? >> well, i'm one that worries that we're on a slick slope to much more on the ground engagement. and i worry about that because when you look at the basic facts that this continues to be a nasty civil war with a proxy war

stacked on top of it. with the benefits to the united states, being hard to see where it goes and looking at will you find a benevolent strong man to take over it or will you have a magic wand in democracy -- >> but to look at it right now and say look, if we keep on the same course we'll just see more of what we see today. >> that is right, a very hard question, but the question is what do you want the united states as a nation, yes, it has a unique place in the world, but what exposure do you want to have in a very big quagmire, now it will be a hard debate question as we enter the political arena. still ahead, the university of missouri names a new interim president. we'll have reaction from that campus ahead. plus, two days ahead of the next democratic debate one candidate picks up a big endorsement.

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developing news from missouri tonight, where the university of missouri has just name add new interim system president. mike middleton, deputy chancellor will take over as head of the university. >> this is a learning experience for us all. we must tighten our focus, improve our culture and climate across all of our campuses. and share in the responsibility to see our university advance in healthy ways, built upon respect. respect for others. >> the appointment comes three days after former school assistant president tim wolf resigned amid protests and complaints against minority student. meanwhile, tensions remain high

on the columbia campus today. earlier a second man was arrested for allegedly making on-line threats against black students and faculty. and we're learning more about hunter park, the man charged yesterday with making a terroristic threats against black people on campus, they say his threats could have stemmed from the issues last month. sarah, what can you tell us about this new president? >> reporter: well, hi, steve, mike middleton had actually retired in august, a very short-lived retirement, because he already started his duties as interim president. he said his first step will be to address the remaining demands put forth by student advictivis >> it is clear to me that a first step is to devote our attention to addressing those

demands. it is imperative that we hear all of our students and do everything we can to make them comfortable and safe in our community. >> reporter: well, obviously a lot of talk and a lot of focus has been on safety here on campus in the last 48 hours since those threats were posted on line, specifically targeting black students here on campus. now, the suspect in that case, 19-year-old hunter park who made his first appearance in court where a judge denied his application to have his bail reduced. court papers reveal that he told investigators that he has a deep interest in the oregon community college mass shooting. when asked why he allegedly posted these threats that affected the campus about two hours from his location, he reportedly said quote, i won't go there so i don't know. end quote. now students tell us today things were getting back to

normal. classes were fairly full although there were missing students, some of those who chose to pack up and leave campus when those threats were posted, deciding to make it a long weekend, steve, and waiting for things to calm down. >> all right, msnbc's sarah dallof, thank you for that. all right coming up, hillary clinton's numbers in the latest poll. we'll have them for you, and then? do any of the candidates have a plan that could prevent another collapse? and ben carson about his events in the past. he will tell you what he is saying now.

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now to democratic presidential politics just days ahead of the second democratic debate this coming saturday night. hillary clinton is leading nationally despite sharpened attacks from her nearest rival, vermont senator bernie sanders,

the poll shows clinton leading by 19 points. this comes on the day that the united postal workers have backed sanders, he has been a long-time supporter of the post office fighting against privatization and cuts to the post office, such as saturday delivery. and he has hit her on issues such as the death penalty, marijuana and legalization, will any of that be enough to close the gap, though? joining me now, former national field director for president obama's re-election campaign, and dana milbank, political commentator at "the washington post." here is one point, the debate will be held on a saturday so i'm not sure how many people will be watching here. he has a lot of ground to make up. people want him to be on the attack more. he started to draw more contrast with hillary clinton.

do you think he has it in him to make the kind of case he needs to to close the gap? >> well, i'm going to use the dvr for that on saturday, that will be rough for him to have a lot of impact there. i don't think that is the core of his problem. and it's not so much of a problem. he has done far better than anybody expected. people thought he would be down there holding on like his toenails like martin o'malley. so it has been a success, in order for him to mount the kind of serious threat to hillary clinton, like i think some of his supporters would like to, he has a flash and burn attack on her, bernie sanders to his credit doesn't do slash and burn, so he does not run an ugly campaign, that doesn't mean he will win the campaign but he is fighting the good fight and getting his issues out there. that is what i think this really is about. >> and after the debate on cbs on saturday night we'll have

live coverage here on msnbc. a post-debate special so yes, please, please, tune into that, dana and everybody out there. so jeremy, that is an interesting point. bernie sanders has defined himself. he never ran an ugly ad. he believes in putting his own positive ideas forward and now he is entering into this realm where he has to throw some elbows if he wants to make up some ground. >> in the first debate i thought he had a pretty good moment when he said you know people are moving on beyond the e-mails. and then he sort of backtracked on that. the problem is an outsider candidate he is sort of finding himself trying to use some of the insider tactics. i just don't see how it works. secretary clinton has had an incredible month starting with her debate performance in las vegas. you have benghazi, the information from the vice president and then her j.j. performance, you see that, i

don't see how as an insider candidate he can use those tactics, i don't see how it would help him. >> we mentioned the postal workers backing bernie sanders, he also picked up a pretty big named supporter in ohio, nina turner, ran for secretary of state and nationally known as a hillary clinton supporter, she announced that she is no longer supporting hillary clinton and throwing her support behind bernie sanders. obviously, bernie sanders will need many, many more defections like this. so he struggled particularly with african-americans. he is doing fairly well among white democrats and losing by 50, 60, 70 points, somewhere among the black democrats. from that standpoint it is a potentially specific development. >> it is, he will need a lot more people to feel the burn before it's actually -- he is really going to make some headway there. you know, i think we're paying a

lot of attention because he has done so well in new hampshire, which is a bordering state and where there is also a lot of white liberal democrats voting in the primaries. and if -- if he does do well there and you know needs to pivot down to south carolina and elsewhere, it's a very different sort of a map for him. and it's really formidable. you can't say never in this particular campaign era, but it really does feel as if he has hit his ceiling. >> and jeremy, you know a thing or two about organizing, and we see these rallies where bernie sanders is getting 20, 15,000 people. and you hear where they say the number one rule is organize, organize, organize out there. is that grass roots enthusiasm that you're seeing? are you seeing that translate into the kind of organization that could maybe pull off a

surprise, especially in an area like iowa? >> well, when you look at the organization that clinton has built. you know, she has nearly 300 organizers on the ground in four states and i know sanders' campaign has organizers, but can he do that type of door-to-door organizing. she learned a lot of lessons from her campaign in iowa. if you look at the ground game they're running there and really in the four states and then beyond and to the point you just made about the poll in terms of her strength in the poll you saw today. with african american voters, with latino voters and women voters it's very strong for her when you look at the map, especially beyond the four states. >> we could share numbers here from the poll, this is cbs news, "the new york times" poll came out today. the headline, a 19-point lead from hillary clinton. they asked the democratic voters is your mind made up or is it still too early to know who you will vote for there?

the good news is, bernie sanders, they are saying it's still too early, they may switch between candidates. also who would the voters enthusiastically support if they win the primary? a majority of voters say they would back hillary clinton as their candidate. 45% opting for bernie sanders. that is an interesting finding i see there, so much of bernie sanders' pitch is about bringing new voters into the process and expanding the number of people who would turn out in a general election. he is basically making the argument he is a more electable candidate in the fall because of enthusiasm. >> i would be making that argument if i were in his position, as well. but it is -- a difficult one for bernie sanders to be making. yes, he can bring out the crowds and yes barack obama brought out the crowds and was able to translate that into votes earlier. but in a way, bernie sanders is fighting against history in a way that barack obama is not. so he would like to dethrone the

woman who would become our first president. there are a lot of democrats, men and women alike who are very enthusiastic about that idea. you hear a lot of sanders supporters saying well, there are welcoming up the ranks in the party so just hold on. that is a hard argument to make. and he is not necessarily a man you could say like either clinton or barack obama who is really making history in his own right. that is why i think the core of support for clinton is a lot harder than it is for bernie sanders' core support. >> and sanders looking ahead to the general election, there was that moment in the republican debate the other night when immigration came up, the idea of taking 12 million people out of the country, the idea was raised, jeb bush says hillary clinton's headquarters they're doing high five's listening to this conversation, is that true? >> well, i think most of the republican debates there were high five's, not just hillary clinton's question, but you are

exactly right where you have a debate where republicans are continuing to alienate themselves, remember that 2012 campaign where they said we have to change things? and specifically we have to change our policy on immigration reform. we haven't seen that in congress and the republican primary. i think that is a big problem for them in the general election and something that you know hillary clinton is going to be able to really draw that contrast, really with any of them. >> yeah, and just on the electability question one more finding on that poll, by a 4-1 margin, hillary clinton more likely to win than bernie sanders, so she is winning that electability argument right now, thank you for joining us. all right, still to come, ben carson gets testy about answering about events in his past. his latest comments are just ahead. and could the law repealed years ago actually be the answer? stay tuned.

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50% more data for the same price. i like this metaphor. oh, it's even better with funnel cakes. but very sticky. now get 15 gigs for the price of 10. dr. bernie sanders' credibility under the microscope again, he is defending his comments in his book that came under question by the media. last night he appeared on fox to explain why his version of events has not necessarily held up to scrutiny. >> i defy you to find anybody who can very accurately detail

everything that happened you know, 20, 30, 40 years ago, you can give the general flavor. and that is what i did, working with a cool writer. and you're never going to have the exact details in that situation. >> this comes as carson faces new questions from a report from associated press that says he had had ties with a convicted felon. carson is not accused of wrongdoing, but the ap does raise questions about his relationship with and financial ties to of a friend who also heads up a local chapter of carson's charity. the story in particular, we're saying here it involves a particular dentist, his name is al costa, who was sentenced to community service years ago for overcharging patients for procedures he didn't do then taking the money for insurance companies. carson and his wife have earned between 200,000 and $2 million a

year with investments through this man and carson put out a statement today standing by al costa his friend, saying he knows his heart and calls him his friend and will stand by him. that is what friends do. molly, this story has been under scrutiny for weeks. this is the newest wrinkle from the associated press. this this change things regarding how people feel? >> i don't think so, i think ben carson is surviving the vet. the large broad strokes of his life story has held up. the news of his associations with people, this is normal for candidates, particularly those new to the stage. he is not personally accused of wrongdoing, and i don't think the voters who support ben carson will be swayed by this kind of thing because of what they see in him. because they are so focused on

him and his inspirational story and his personal -- his personal narrative. i think it's very hard to shake them off of that belief. i think he is someone that people really want to believe in. >> yeah, it's interesting, they called reagan the teflon president because nothing ever stuck to him. i am starting to wonder if carson could be that type of candidate as well. how widespread is the phenomenon you're describing? is it just the supporters he has, the base of the support, is it broader within the republican party? does this extend to sort of the entire republican party? >> well, simply based on polls he had very high favorable ratings, far beyond the vote share he would get. people like ben carson, and i spoke to his campaign manager the other day and that is what he said was carson's greatest strength. i think he saw in the debate to even though he game very perplexing answers to the policy questions nobody attacked him

and part of that is because the other candidates realized that he has such tremendous good will with the republican base that attacking him is very dangerous. people really feel personally connected to him, personally invested in him. so i think he actually unlike many other candidates has a pretty high ceiling in this race just because there is so much personal affection for him. >> yeah, i find it funny when you talk to people who follow the races, journalists when you talk to people who work in some of the republican campaigns you just come across. there seems to be this assumption that for some reason the carson thing just goes away. and you hear about donald trump, too, there is just an assumption that at some point he won't be in first place anymore. his numbers will drop. and i sit there and say why will that happen? and when will it happen? i'm not sure, i have an answer to that. >> i don't have an answer to it either. it would be by its nature have to be an unexpected event. i'm not sitting on the pile of people trying to destroy ben

carson. the campaigns are not either. i think you're right that that is a widely shared and completely unsubstantiated assumption about both carson and trump. and i wrote today that he is sort of coming out as the frontrunner in this race because he has the upward trajectory, and you hear others say what is going to happen when carson wins iowa, and trump wins new hampshire? >> that could be an unforeseen circumstance we've never seen before, that is what i'm trying to say. thank you for joining us. >> thank you. and coming up, a crucial difference between the democratic candidates leading up to saturday's debate. we'll tell you what it is straight ahead. enture, and that bacteria multiplies very rapidly. that's why dentists recommend cleaning with polident everyday. polident's unique micro clean formula works in just 3 minutes, killing 99.99% of odor causing bacteria.

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a potentially uncomfortable spot. it goes back to 1999, 16 years ago, that is when then president bill clinton signed into law a partial repeal of the glass-steagall law, that was a law that put a wall between investment banking and commercial banking. here are hillary clinton's opponents on glass-steagall. >> we are about to bring back glass-steagall legislation, which means we are not going to allow investor banks and commercial banks to merge. >> i'm for allowing the merge on wall street, and we should reinstate glass-steagall. >> but hillary clinton is not in that camp. here is what she said about that issue last month in new hampshire. >> i fully respect my colleagues who have said let's reinstate

glass-steagall. and if i thought that alone would prevent the potential next crisis i would raise my hand and join. but that is not my assessment. >> and during the debate, about whether part of glass-steagall should be repealed back in 1999, back then one senator warned on the floor that within ten years we would regret it. >> because this bill, which i'll bet five, ten, 15 years from now, we'll be back thinking about this bill. i bet one day somebody will look back at this and say how on earth could we have thought it made sense? >> and with me now is the former u.s. senator you just saw from back in 1999, byron dorgan, former senator from north dakota. thank you for joining us, senator. >> thank you. >> by the way, this is the 16th anniversary of the formal repeal of the glass-steagall. we have the report from you saying look, five, ten, 15 years

from now we'll regret this. when you look at the 2008 meltdown on wall street, do you think that would have happened if we had repealed glass-steagall? i don't think it would have happened at all, they forced some behavior on the part of some financial institutions that would have prevented this near collapse in 2008. and the repeal of glass-steagall, in 1999 i guess it was, it gave a green light to the biggest financial institutions in this country to essentially just gamble. just make wager with -- what ultimately would be the taxpayers' money because they ensure all the deposits. so no, it was a horrible decision, very costly, probably one of the worst financial decisions in the history of this country because it nearly led to the collapse of the american economy in 2008. >> i think the vote in the senate, you were with 90-8 in

favor of repealing this. you were one of eight. the vote in the house was something like that 362 to 350. these were overwhelming decisions. i know the dodd-frank law, the reforms, what kind of remorse is there from some people who may say, i regret this vote? >> well, i hope so. it was an avalanche of support. wall street, the biggest financial institution in the country had their way. i warned and others -- the fact that they were dead set on getting rid of these regulations, getting rid of glass-steagall, what a horrible, costly expensive mistake for the united states economy. i still think we need to restore glass-steagall, as you know there is bipartisan legislation in the congress to do that. and i think it's important to do to take some of the risks out of what still now exists with respect to some of these financial instruments. you know, we have not, for

example, prohibited what are called naked credit default swaps. there are tens of trillions of dollars of them out there. so we just need to stop some of this behavior. and glass-steagall is an important behavior to do that. >> i have to ask you, you say the meltdown doesn't happen in 2008 if the repeal doesn't take place in 1999, we just showed hillary clinton who you have endorsed for president saying i don't want to reinstate it. her opponent, bernie sanders, not only wants to reinstate is, he is one of the very few who stood with you as a member of the house and voted against repeal. why would you support bernie sanders and not hillary clinton on what you say is a very important fundamental issue? >> there are two ways to explain that. one, there is a long road to the white house, i think hillary clinton will get there between that point and between now. and i hope very much she will understand the need to restore

glass-steagall. and by the way, there are a lot of important issues that i have respect for, bernie sanders, i worked with both of them in the senate. but the issue is simple. we must restore a portion of glass-steagall to put our country in a safer zone here. we don't want to be in a position again to have a near collapse of the economy because of outrageous gambling by some of the largest financial institutions in the country. and glass-steagall prevents that. >> i don't want to press that point but i do want to follow up. the judgment about being president, there is so much of it about judgment. the foresight on this issue, now you can say 16 years later essentially i told you so. the fact that hillary clinton would look at this and still say no, i don't want to reinstate this does that not concern you about her judgment? >> well, listen, between now and when the presidential election is held next year there is a lot of time. my hope is that there are really good people in congress working on this issue as well to restore

glass-steagall who have plenty of opportunities to visit with hillary clinton about this. and i will do so. but hillary i think is going to be a president, i support her, but i very much want her to get to the right place on the issue of glass-steagall. >> all right, former senator byron dorgan from north dakota, thank you for your time. >> thank you. >> and thank you for joining us msnbc live, i'm steve kornacki, "hardball" starts now. big man on campus. let's play "hardball." ♪ ♪ ♪ good evening, i'm chris matthews from manchester, new hampshire, where we look at the growing political issues. let's look at university of missouri as well as other campuses. the monday, the resig