good afternoon. i'm chris jansing. this is msnbc's continuing coverage of the terror attacks in paris. let's get you caught up on the latest. it is 9:00 p.m. in paris where we are waiting on a press conference from the french interior ministry. a few hours ago we saw how much paris is a city on edge. a crowded plaza where people started running and screaming in panic. turned out to be a false alarm. right now there is an intensive manhunt under way for this

fugitive. french police believe he is connected to the vehicle that brought the attackers in the concert hall. he's 26 years old born in brussels, belgium. french authorities say he is on the run and extremely dangerous. reports say he and two of his brothers were involved. one reportedly died and the other was arrested in belgium. in this hour we'll be looking at this apparent escalation by isis. do the terrorists have the u.s. in their sights next and the increasing call for boots on the ground in syria. but let's start with the very latest on the manhunt and those arrests. richard lui is at the plaza where a million people gathered after "charlie hebdo" attacks. richard, what can you tell us? >> reporter: good day to you as we look at this, chris. the very latest in the investigation, that continues and that tweet that you were just showing, it came out about 2 1/2 hours ago. interesting to see. that manhunt, although they're

giving that most wanted, if you will, call, the tweet before that was an acknowledgment by the national police of france that they are also working with the national police of spain in that they are focusing together on the border, the frontier between those two countries. whether that is related to that latest development, that manhunt for the individual that you were just talking about, is probably one of the questions that they're looking at. today we also understand that the president, francois hollande was meeting with his advisers to determine what are the next questions. the question is since "charlie hebdo" whether they have utilized all that they could and whether there truly were other procedures, other strategies that they could put out there given some of the criticism here on the ground that was enough done? here at place de la republique, 2 1/2 hours ago we got a sense of that tension that you alluded to at the very location we're at

right now. this plaza was full with thousands of people. it emptied out in probably about 25 seconds and the majority of them ran towards just where we're standing right now. because the question was and i'm not sure -- >> there's the video that was being taken at the time, they ran towards the northeast side of this plaza. however, the problem was on this side of the plaza is where we have about 30 trucks, and so they started to slow and then you had these tributaries where people were being trampled. the question and the concern obviously were those who were older and those who were younger because there were many children here today that were both rallying with their parents, some that were debating here on the plaza, and then right behind me dead silence as many here were thinking of no he is w-- to lost their lives and thinking of what's next for the country. >> easy to see how disturbing

something like that could be and easy to see how people could get hurt. richard lui will stay on scene and kep ep us posted. the paris attacks mark the third time isis appears to have struck. for a long time the conventional wisdom was that only al qaeda had global reach. but this attack seems to have completely blindsided french authorities. new york police commissioner bill bratton suggested a very worrisome possibility, that terrorists have been quote, unquou unquote, going dark. this new technological barrier that may have been broken in the paris attacks. >> this is the new paradigm we'll have to deal with as your previous guest just talked about, the concern about going dark as the head of the fbi has described it. these apps, these devices that now allow these terrorists to operate effectively without fear of penetration by intelligence services. this is the first example of

this. >> bratton suggesting the technology used in this attack may have broken startling and disturbing new ground. joining me now, author and vice president of the center for intelligence policy. thank you for joining us. let me get your take first on what bill bratton just had to say. how real a problem is this? are the terrorists ahead of the rest of, for lack of a better term, the good guys. >> a lot of these terrorists are men in their 20s and 30s. they're digital natives. when you take your average intelligence community individual or law enforcement, these tend to be sort of people who this is actually quite new technology. however, i would be concerned that we're using technologica y ly oriented activity to determine what happened. what i gather is chances are this cell probably knew each other for a very long time. they didn't even need to use technology to talk to each other because they were with each other this entire time. so it's still too early to tell

to see whether there was a technological way to break these guys. >> is it possible there is so much out there that the intelligence community needs to go through, needs to sift through, that this was a case that there was something that potentially was missed? >> absolutely. things get missed all the time, and the people who are going through this are only human. individuals in france, individuals in the middle east, in the united states, and elsewhere are going through hundreds if not thousands of pieces of data every day, and for them to miss one piece that doesn't really make much sense makes complete sense if you know that you're literally drinking from a fire hose. not literally but -- >> understood. could a coordinated series of attacks like this though be pulled off using technology, using communication where they really are dark? >> absolutely. they could have used various technological mechanisms that can actually erase your data before law enforcement can find it. now, it depends on which laws of

which country they're actually using, but, yes, they could have used -- they could have communicated with each other using technology that disappears within seconds. however, we don't know whether this is the case yet for this particular attack. it doesn't take that much for a number of suicide attackers and men with guns and more importantly the will to kill lots of civilians to actually commit a crime using technology or otherwise. >> the concern that has been raised about this is that if there was no chatter before hand, and this is something we're used to in the attacks we've seen in the past. we hear intelligence officials talk about chatter before hand. is that perhaps though no longer going to be the indication, and what does that mean for people who live in any city that might be a target for terrorists? >> it's incredibly difficult and we're talking about individuals who are willing to die for their cause, and the fact they may not be chattering or may not be using electronic communications to converse with each other to determine when, where, how, and

when to commit their attacks is actually quite disturbing, about you that doesn't mean our intelligence services and our law enforcement are completely in the dark. they still have the ability to listen in to a lot of their communications. they also have a lot of human intelligence they could use. it's not like the law enforcement and intelligence communities in europe, the middle east, and here in north america are completely in the dark. however, remember, that terrorists are motivated individuals and if they actually want to create mayhem in a major urban center, it's actually not as hard as you think it's going to be, unfortunately. >> and many of them want to do what they believe is be a martyr for the cause. that's the greatest goal they could possibly have. aki, thank you so much for joining us. we want to remind folks we are still waiting for that press conference to come out of the french interior ministry. but in the meantime, the international response to isis has dominated today's talks at the g-20 summit in turkey.

just a short time ago, president obama wrapped up a meeting with the saudi king, a key player in the battle against isis in syria, and the president vowed to hunt down the terrorists responsible for friday's attacks. >> the killing of innocent people based on a twisted ideology is an attack not just on france, not just on turkey, but it's an attack on the civilized world. >> nbc's ron allen joins me now from turkey. what's the latest from there? who has the president met with? who do we know about the tone and the subject of these conversations regarding isis? >> reporter: well, you mentioned the saudi king, and he's significant because he plays -- the saudis play a big role in the region, especially in the ongoing peace talks that are going on in vienna where they say there has been some progress. however, much the focus here has been about what kind of military response will there be to isis.

and it seems the french will lead the way. they're part of the coalition that's been conducting air strikes over iraq and syria on isis targets. the u.s. is saying it's not going to change its strategy but it's going to intensify the strategy along with the french of increasing the number of air strikes, trying to find more coalition partners on the ground arm and support to try to take out isis on the ground. we know there's an ration that's closing in on the self-proclaimed isis headquarters in syria bso theres that. there's going to be an intensification of what's been going on in the skies and the ground. he also had an interesting conversation with vladimir putin. diplomacy on the fly where they were huddled in a corner while the other leaders were milling about around them. there was no scheduled meeting so mr. obama tried to get a

moment with vladimir putin when he could. we understand that they've been trying again to push the diplomatic process forward. the two leaders are very much at odds about the future of the syrian president, bishar al assad. the united states wants him to go. the russians are backing him. the russians have not been attacking isis targets as the united states wants them to. there was also a meeting between the president of the united states and the president of turkey. turkey plays a key role in this whole situation. we're here along -- very close to the turkish border with syria. the united states wants the turks to cut off the flow of born fighters hofg in erers mov and out of syria across a very porous border. that links to what happened in paris. it's believed some of the people in isis, some of the fighters in isis responsible for those attacks may have been fighters who have come out of syria back into europe. that's the big danger. a lot of diplomacy, a lot of talk about military responses. the key player in all of this,

of course, is the french who are the most aggrieved party and who have said they are determined to hunt down these killers where they are. >> in the meantime, while the president is there, a lot of talk back home about what will happen next and criticism of the president's assertion that isis has been contained. here is the conversation between chuck todd on "meet the press" with ben rhodes, the deputy national security adviser. >> they've escalated to potentially three terrorist attacks in the last ten days. that is not a contained organization. >> well, chuck, the president was referring very specifically to the question of isil's geographic expansion in iraq and syria. they had been on the march in both iraq and syria for some time but starting a year ago we were able to halt that expansion and we've actually been able to push back and reclaim territory from isil in iraq and syria. >> any sense, any expectation from the folks there that the president and frankly the coalition will come out of this two-day meeting with some sort

of consensus? >> reporter: well, we talked to ben rhodes about that comment, and it is true according to the united states that isis has been pushed back territorially, but they also admit they have not been able to decapitate, to use their words, the command and control center which is somewhere in syria or in northern iraq, the areas isis controls, and the question is still whether these attacks that happened in paris and the attacks that happened in beirut and the downing of the russian airliner last week, if those attacks were coordinated and planned from a central location. if, in fact, that is the case, ha speaks to the problem that the united states and the coalition still has even though they may have stopped isis' expansion, they've not been able to kill it at its headquarters and these attacks in paris and elsewhere have shown that they have that ability to do so. so while, yes, the territorial expansion may have lost momentum, there is still this

problem that -- this huge problem that the attacks in paris has exposed that isis can apparently reach well beyond iraq, well beyond syria to the heart of europe to strike. that's the problem. the question is whether this strategy, this u.s.-led strategy, of air strikes and supporting and arming ground troops where there are mixed loyalties and shifting factions and unreliable partners, whether that is going to be enough, and again, as i said before, i think the french are certainly going to drive this because they are certainly determined to strike isis where it is and to retaliate because of what happened in paris. >> ron allen in turkey traveling with president obama. thank you. and this terror in paris suddenly the focus on the campaign trail, including at last night's democratic debate. next, the candidates take on the tragedy and especially what they would do about isis. plus, americans getting ready for sunday night football but so are security officials. they're beefing up their presence at metlife stadium, the site of tonight's face-off

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al al alex seitzwald. >> last night's debate was definitely dominated by the paris attacks and hillary clinton, this should be her strong suit but she spent much of the debate on defense taking shots from both bernie sanders and martin o'malley for her vote for the iraq war and also for a comment she made about america's role in fighting isis saying it should not take a lead. take a look. >> i think that we have to look at isis as the leading threat of an international terror network. it cannot be contained. it must be defeated, but it cannot be an american fight. and i think what the president has consistently said, which i agree with, is that we will support those who take the fight to isis. >> i would disagree with secretary clinton respectfully on this score. this actually is america's fight. it cannot solely be america's fight. >> let me have one area of

disagreement with the secretary. i think she said something like the bulk of the responsibility is not ours. well, in fact, i would argue that the disastrous invasion of iraq, something that i strongly opposed, has unraveled the region completely and led to the rise of al qaeda and to isis. >> so, chris, clinton used her marks here today and aims to clarify that statement a little bit. she said while the u.s. should not and cannot be the sole player in fighting isis, it must lead. i think she may have left out the world "only" in her remarks last night. martin o'malley letting up no pressure, going after her on that issue and also for comments she made last night when she was defending donations she received from wall street and invoked the 9/11 terror attacks. he once again hitter saying she

was trying to mask those donations. >> everything you say clips can be taken out and potentially used in ads by the opposition. that word "only" may come back to haunt her. i understand bernie sanders didn't show up at the barbecue. do we know why not? >> he appeared on "face the nation" and he has two events this afternoon. we have hillary clinton, then martin o'malley, and now cornell west, the princeton professor, controversial radical activist is speaking on bernie sanders behalf here. cornell west has been very critical of barack obama in the leadup to the 2012 re-election and it comes at a time bernie sanders has faced questions about whether he tried to find a primary challenger to obama in 2012, how loyal he is to the democratic party. sanders is the longest serving independent in congress. he caucuses with the democrats but he only recently became a

registered democrat. we'll see how cornell west comments play on sanders' behalf. >> alex seitz-wald. joining us is olivia newt si and amy davidson. thanks to both of you. amy, your eyebrows went up when you heard cornell west. what do you make of that? >> it's interesting and it shows he's bringing something to the primaries that other candidate aren't. >> and it does seem to be this kind of year, they're bringing things we didn't expect and we also saw bill clinton out with hillary clinton today. do you think, olivia, anything she had to say at the debate last night could be problematic for her? >> certainly. i mean, i think alex just said it, her comment about 9/11, trying to deflect from the fact she's received donations from wall street by bringing up 9/11. i think that will be used against her from the left and from the right. we're already seeing that happening now. and i think also her comments

about how she would defeat isis. she kind of hit back at obama saying isis had been contained trying to distance herself from that saying isis cannot be contained, can only be defeated. that might come back to haunt her. there's no way she will be able to distance herself completely from barack obama's foreign policy. >> there are the words and the optics and we just saw that picture of bill clinton with hillary clinton. he hasn't been out that much with her and the campaign says although that will happen some, it's not going to necessarily happen a lot. what's the impact when people see bill clinton on stage with her? >> it's interesting the way she brought up bill clinton last night. it was in response to when bernie sanders said the iraq war caused a lot of these problems. you voted for the iraq war and she said well, there's actually been terrorism attacks under ronald reagan, under my husband. it was sort of an odd choice to say, you know, i have been around a long time and the world is really complicated without really getting at saying, yes,

there was a specific problem with the iraq war and i recognize that. i think it points to how awkward it can be when she brings him up. it both points out that she is part of a whole series of different administrations, each with their own burdens and each with their own baggage. >> and the complication, olivia, of her trying to distance herself in some ways from what happened during her time at the obama administration which has been documented in her book and elsewhere about how she took a more hawkish stance in some instances, but how will the republicans play that? how will that -- how do you see that working? >> i think we're already seeing it. marco rubio's communications director tweeted last night exactly, hillary clinton is about the past, we're about the future. i think a lot of people are concerned if rubio continues to gain traction and he ends up challenging her if she does win the nomination, it will really become an election about the past versus the future and that

could be a very damning thing. we saw how that worked out in 2008 for hillary clinton, not particularly well. >> i do wonder about that and don't necessarily disagree with you. i wonder if what we have seen over the last 48 hours makes people look more forward, look more carefully at what do these candidates actually have to say about what they're going to do? how are they going to face this threat? let me play for you what jeb bush said on "meet the press" suggesting setting up safe zones in syria and by extension that would be boots on the ground. take a listen. >> to do safe zones in syria, that's going to mean some boots on the ground. >> absolutely. and it ought to be designed by our military without their hands tied. we ought to know exactly what it will take and we can't do it alone. i think that's an important lesson from history, but we need to lead. >> and then we've also heard a similar thing about boots on the ground from ben carson. you know what donald trump has had to say, he's going to throw

absolutely everything at it. i guess the key question is the conventional wisdom has been going into 2016 this is a war weary nation. has the rise of isis and what some people see now as a threat to the west and by extension a threat to the united states potentially changed the equation there, that people may be more open to boots on the ground, to further involvement in that part of the world? >> possibly although i think what hillary clinton got called on last night was an idea that she wasn't thinking about the consequences of all of these choices. that she was distancing herself from votes she'd taken, from foreign policy and their effect on this. there was an idea of disowning responsibility but more than that when you say will it cause -- will these fears cause americans to be more vofeinvolvn the world, if you look at the republican side, there's also a strain of we need to shut our

doors, shut out immigrants and that might also be a strain here that is going to become a big part of the election. if the fears of paris cause people to push the world away. >> i don't think there's any question about that. we're seeing it already in conversations at the european union. the head of the eu pushing back and saying we don't need to be talking about starting to change our borders but the immigration question is already part of the conversation. thank you to both of you. our coverage of the terror in paris continues after a break with new information about the first confirmed american fatality from these attacks. know h no hnohemi gonzalez was gunned down simply sitting at dinner. we'll be right back. hemi gonzal simply sitting at dinner. we'll be right back.

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officials appears to be ongoing. we are waiting for the press conference that is to follow. in the meantime, the french interior minister gave an interview to french television in which he said he's going to start the dissolution of mosques where hate is preached, and this is the quote. i don't expect the state of emergency for me to attack preachers of hate, but the state of emergency should allow us to act more rapidly. so the intention to shut down radical mosques in france. in the meantime, on the investigation, i want to get us up to speed. let's bring in msnbc's richard lui who is live on the ground in paris who has been following all the developments. 26-year-old on the run, considered dangerous. what else can you tell us? >> reporter: chris, what we're hearing from the french justice minister telling nbc and confirming that this -- all of the attackers are dead and that any additional person is not one of the attackers. perhaps an assistant, somebody

that was part of the logistics. this, of course, on the day that we also learn, chris, they had identified that black seat, that european branded car east of downtown paris. the car if and when used here during the six attacks in downtown paris not found close to those locations. how did that car get there? and then the links then leading to belgium which has been a big topic today and the links to belgium and what sort of potential training, associations may have been there. chris? >> msnbc's richard lui, thank you. and as he just said, much of this focus has turned to belgium. seven people detained in connection with the attacks. for more on belgium's role and response, let me bring in ron mott from the london bureau. what more can you tell us on that, ron? >> well, hey there, chris. this is the molenbeek yarea, a suburb of belgium people have

been worried about. they think it's a jihadist training ground so there's going to be a lot of attention paid to this neighborhood. we have seven people who have been detained for questioning. authorities there in belgium have not yet made a positive link between those seven individuals and what took place in paris on friday. suffice it to say there's worldwide concern about what's been going on in that neighborhood. there's a high concentration of people who have gone to places like syria and returned. in the uk there's going to be increased scrutiny of some britons who have traveled to syria and come back. the government has identified about 750 folks in all, about 450 of them have returned from syria and there is going to be some concern and some surveillance we suspect going forward about whether there are any sort of plans taking place here in the uk with respect to some sort of terrorist attack. i can tell you yesterday there was a little bit of a sigh of relief from britons when david cameron, the prime minister,

announced there would be no elevation of the national security threat which is already fairly high, it's at severe, the second highest. they will be evaluating that going forward. we found out last night that some special forces troops were put out on the street to back up undercover cops in eastern high traffic areas, your train stations, the west end theater and restaurant district which is very popular with tourists. a lot of things are moving right now and in belgium, also in the uk, and in france. chris? >> nbc's ron mott in our london bureau. thank you. just got this from the new york stock exchange, that its members, member organizations, and personnel will observe a moment of silence at 9:25 eastern time in the wake of the attacks in paris. there will be a single strike of the new york stock exchange bell at 9:25 to indicate the start of the minute of silence and another one at 9:26 to conclude it. one of the many places and ways in which people are showing solidarity with the people of paris. california state university meantime is preparing for a

vigil to honor the young american victim kild in friday's attack. that's 23-year-old nohemi gonzalez. she was spending a semester studying abroad in france and among those killed in friday's terrorist attacks. if there was any small piece of good news, it was that all of the folks from her college who were traveling with her were accounted for fairly quickly. for more on this, let's bring in cnbc's scott cohn in los angeles for us. what can you tell us more about this promising young woman and the plans for her memorial. >> chris, this was supposed to be and it was homecoming weekend at cal state long beach which is a school of about 37,000 students south of here, and it has changed. the weekend has changed. there were basketball games, men's basketball yesterday, women's basketball today. they held a moment of silence before the men's game and as you said, there will be a vigil, about 3 1/2 hours from now. mimi gonzalez as she was known

was by all accounts a promising student. has been described variously as a shining star, someone who was an inspiration to her fellow students and by all accounts was also embarking on a promising career. she was studying strim industrial design at cal state long beach and looking at different ways to make products that were environmentally sustainable and living the dream this semester abroad. dreamed about coming to paris, learning french, and in her last facebook post about a month ago talked about one of the hardest things she'd done in her life was learning a 3-d modeling program in a language she did not understand. tragically cut down at the age of 23. >> our hearts go out to her family and friends. in the meantime, scott, what more do we know about the whereabouts of the band members, the eagles of death metal. >> the band that was playing at the concert where the bulk of the carnage took place, we know they were seen leaving their

hotel in paris and the plan had been to return here to california, but spokespeople for the band, a manager and an attorney, would not comment to nbc news about there whereabouts, where they are headed. we know that their merchandise manager, a british national, 36-year-old nick alexander, was among those killed in the attack, and we will see whether the band will certainly play some sort -- pay some sort of tribute to him but at this moment the eagles of death metal, their whereabouts not known. >> scott cohn, thank you for the upgats. in the wake of the attack there's mounting backlash online against thousands of migrants who have puoured into europe frm syria. it's more than a network and the cloud.

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friday night's terror attack in paris has focused new attention on the stream of migrants that have been pouring out of syria since the civil war broke out. according to french and greek officials, one of the attackers in that paris assault on friday entered europe last month alongside those migrants. officials say a passport found near the body of one of the attackers matches the records of a migrant who passed through greece on october 3rd. now, since the attacks, there's been a growing backlash online as well against those migrants who are fleeing syria. joining us now is msnbc's cal perry who has been tracking this. cal, what can you tell us? >> social media is really that double-edged sword. it was a great help during the attack, during the first hours of the attack as the people who were stuck in the theater were communicating with the police. now we're seeing an outcry on social media, especially in europe against the refugees. you mentioned that passport. a lot of people concerned refugees are going to bring this stuff into europe. there's been some misinformation

on social media. the first photo, this is the refugee camp in calais. a fire breaking out friday night. the initial reports were this was a fire set as retaliation. that's simply not true. it was a fire that broke out because of some cookers that overheated. the fire quickly spread. the second thing we have for you, this is where richard lui has been reporting from today. this is a photo again on friday night that was circulated on social media. people saying an outpouring of support. there is an old photo. this photo was after the "charlie hebdo" attacks. same here with the eiffel tower. the eiffel tower on friday night, you will see it go dark here. social media crying this is france's way of showing solidarity. again, this is after the "charlie hebdo" attacks. important to note the eiffel tower does go dark every night at 2:00 a.m. while there's been an outpouring of support and social media has been a real help, there are times it just spreads misinformation. >> we know that to be true. cal perry, thanks so very much.

a couple other points, the question really is what might this mean, especially for the people who are left fleeing syria. will they be able to get out? will they be able to get out of some of those camps. we heard from angela merkel insisting no limit on the number of people germany will give refuge to. the obama administration is saying that new number that they came out with a couple months ago, 10,000 refugees they want to bring in, there will be no change to that. other places like poland have said that they're going to reconsider their policy in bringing in some of these refugees. joining us now is bill o'keefe, vice president for government relations anded a vo ed advoca catholic relief services. let me just start with your concern, if you have it, about what this might mean to organizations like yours and the

willingness of countries to accept people who are fleeing literally for their lives. >> thanks, chris. we do have a concern about that, and we hope that people will realize that the refugees that we're assisting are fleeing exactly the sorts of people who perpetrated these attacks in paris and the daily lives in syria and to a lesser extent in some of the neighboring countries of those people resemble friday night in paris except for it's every night for four years and that's why they're fleeing, and our goal is to try and educate americans about the reality of the experience of these folks and help them to avoid demonizing the innocent. >> let me allow you though to take on the argument that we hear from some people, and it's a concern that even if you have

thousands of refugees who are truly trying to get away from a deadly situation, taking their children, putting themselves and their families at risk in order to get somewhere they think is safe, it only takes one person or a handful of people with ill-intent who could find their way into that group and make their way best into a european country, even into the united states. how do you allay those concerns? >> well, i think the first thing is certainly for the united states the refugees from syria and the middle east are the most vetted refugees in the entire world. our government goes to great lengths to ensure that the refugees who are admitted to our country are legitimate refugees coming here for legitimate purposes. i also think that, unfortunately, the kinds of people who perpetrate these kinds of atrocities, they're not coming generally through the normal refugee system. they find other ways. they have other means and our

government needs to protect us from those things. it's not the innocent refugee coming here to flee four years of violence that is where the problem is. i think we have to keep our eye on that ball. >> tell us more specifically and i know there are truly hundreds of thousands of stories out there, but give us an idea of if there is such a thing, the typical person that your organization deals with who is coming out of syria or somewhere else in that region. >> sure. colleague of mine was in serbia just two weeks ago and talked about how the typical refugee is a child. half of the refugees fleeing syria are children, and then of the rest many are women and they are bringing their families, and they reach a place like serbia on the way to europe and they are physically and emotionally exhausted. they've had to make unbelievable decisions. have been subjected to long and difficult journeys to great

risks, and that's on top of the years they spent in their own country suffering through bombings, forced conscription, terrorist activities, suicide bombings and things like that. so by the time they reach europe and southern europe where we're meeting them, they're exhausted and they're just looking for a safe haven, and the kind of humanity and strength of those people really comes through in our conversations with them. >> the other concern besides a security one is a financial one, frankly. and when you hear those concerns expressed, one of the things that is said is there's going to be no end to this. they just keep coming. we don't have the room for them. we don't have the money to support them. what do you say to that? >> well, i mean, the first thing is the u.s. has been incredibly generous assisting on the ground in the middle east with the refugee issue. however, much more could be done and should be done if we want to contain the problem.

the u.n.'s appeal for the syria crisis has only been half met this year, and it certainly seems to us that meeting the humanitarian needs on the ground where they're happening would be a wise and obvious start. second of all, we need to be helping the neighboring refugee hosting countries to meet the long-term needs like education of children so that families have a better chance of staying where they are and most don't want to take on this incredibly dangerous journey, and, finally, the diplomatic effort that secretary kerry and the president have embarked on are extremely helpful and very welcome and they need to be intensified because in the end until the fighting stops, we have little confidence that the refugee flow will cease. >> bill o'keefe, vice president for government relations and advocacy at catholic relief services. thank you so much for your time. and so major breaking news we want to report right now. the french are now striking at

the capital of the caliphate from isis. ten fighter jets are involved. they've dropped 20 bombs. this is according to the french defense ministry. we'll take a quick break, come back with colonel jack jacobs for more right after this. this is brad. his day of coaching begins with knee pain, when... hey brad, wanna trade the all day relief of two aleve for six tylenol? what's the catch? there's no catch. you want me to give up my two aleve for six tylenol?

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the map it looks more like central syria and that is essentially the capital, the punitive capital of the caliphate. i am joined now by colonel jack jacobs as well as aqi peretz from the vice center of int intelligen intelligence. what do you make of this response? >> it's hard to see what's going to happen as a result of this and if it's going to be positive. in any military exercise or human endeavor, you start at the end and work backwards. what do you want it to look like when it's all over andeverything you do leads to that. so this looks more like not strategy, but just tactics. what you want to do is get rid of isis. you've got to start with that as the assumption of that's the end state that you want and in order to do that, just dropping bombs occasionally on locations is not going to get the job done. ultimately somebody in the middle east has to generate a

substantial force on the ground because it's easy to knock off people. it's much more difficult to seize and hold terrain, and at the end of the day good governance is what's required in these regions and you can't do it just by dropping bombs on people. >> could this be though, jack, they've felt that like they needed to show that they're going to do something here. >> oh, yeah. >> this is not obviously a coordinated response although, and let me add this, that "the wall street journal" is reporting that the united states is now essentially cooperating and helping with intelligence to allow them to find targets to hit. >> well, that's interesting, too. you mean to tell me we haven't been doing that in the past? it's like a lot of things that have taken place here. seven people were arrested in belgium. why now? why not before? they knew about some of these people at least because they were on no-fly lists before. why now and not before? and so to say that what we're going to do -- i'm not casting any -- for sharing intelligence.

intelligence sharing is one of the ways you get things done, but if it's just public relations and it's all going to fade later and no concerted effort to drive toward an objective which is achievable over a period of time and then it doesn't make any sense then it is just public relations in the aftermath of this tragedy. >> the big part of the conversation now, certainly what is happening over in turkey. what's going to be happening when the eu meets and what's happening, frankly, on the debate stage and on the campaign trail in the united states and so what do you do, what is your objective, if the objective is to wipe out isis, let me read for you from an article in "the daily beast," they spoke to a cia agent with long experience hunting osama bin laden and a cia guy, to clarify, he says you have to put together a force of 6,000 or 7,000 airborne soldiers and just take raqqah, train the force and then use it.

what would it take to take out raqqah? >> it may take 6,000 troops or so. the real question is not what does it take to take out raqqah. what do you do everwards? it's like the old gag. the dog is chasing the car. the dog chases the car and what does the dog do with the car once he's got it? just taking out raqqah is not enough. you have to figure out what are you going to do it and how will you secure it later on. >> well, you know, one of the interesting things i remember is when general shinseki who is chief of staff of the united states army testified before congress before we went in to iraq. someone on the arms services committee, and foreign policy, whatever asked him to be, and asked him how many troops is it actually going to take once you get iraq to hold on to iraq and

he said several hundreds of thousands of troops and by the way, i would add that later on general mcchrystal said it takes that many troops also takes a decade or more, several decade, but we're not willing to do any of that stuff. we surely could send -- we could send a brigade of the 82nd in there and take raqqah, but we're going to bring them home afterwards and once we bring them home afterwards the same thing is going to happen again. no, i say what you really need to do is have strategy, not tactics. it's not enough to say we're going to do this or that. you've got to articulate how you are going to hold the objective after you've seized it and in every human endeavor it takes more resources to hold on to an objective than it does to take it in the first point. >> you've taught strategy at west point. >> from time to time. >> jack, stay with us. we'll continue our coverage after this quick break. french air strikes on the city of raqqah in syria. 20 bombs dropped by ten fighter

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