this sunday morning a special edition of "meet the press." terror in paris. france's 9/11. how did it happen? what signs did french intelligence miss? do we need a new strategy to confront isis and can we prevent the terror from reaching the united states? we'll talk to our correspondents on the ground and an eyewitness to the theater massacre and top government officials and an expert on terrorism. plus, terror in the campaign. >> this actually is america's fight. >> the democrats debated last night and jeb bush joins us this morning. do the events in paris lessen

the appeal of the outsiders? trump, carson and sanders? joining me for insight and analysis this sunday morning are eugene robinson of "the washington post," and jeff green field of politico. welcome to sunday and a special edition of "meet the press." from nbc news in washington, this is a special edition of "meet the press" with chuck todd. good sunday morning. here's what we know at this hour about the attack which is pope francis yesterday called a piecemeal world war iii. this is the death toll and the number of wounded in the series of deadly attacks in and around paris friday night. france says three teams armed with assault rifles and suicide vests carried out this attack. authorities have identified one of the concert hall attackers of algerian origin.

french security had been aware of him and his radicalization since 2010, but never actively investigated. we also know one of the other attackers entered europe through greece and was registered as a refugee in serbia. not yet clear if he was a syrian. now a number of arrests have been made in the belgian capital of brussels leading the french to say this is a terror network. president obama who is at a meeting of the g-20 in turkey this morning called the paris atrocities an attack on the civilized world. >> we will redouble our efforts working with other members of the coalition to bring about a peaceful transition in syria and to eliminate a force that can create so much pain and suffering. >> dasesh, another name for isi or isil from many officials. the war with isis has entered a. >> phase. it takes down a passenger plane

in egypt killing all 224 people onboard and isis claims responsibles's verge for russiay's air strikes it syria. thousands are killed when they arc tack beirut and the deadliest attack since the civil war. again, isis claimed responsibility for the attack and then, of course, was there friday attackers wearing suicide vests and carrying out coordinated attacks with assault rifles, slaughter, scores of people and bringing terror to the heart of europe. we're covering this story and its security and political implications here at home and around the world from all angles and we'll start with our chief foreign correspondent richard engel who is on the ground. richard, let's start with the investigation itself. the french continue to say this is isis. the united states stands on this as simply we don't have information to contradict this. what more do we know? >> reporter: well, the investigation is continuing and it is expanding internationally. there have been arrests in belgium. a french minister told me that

there is a connection to greece, that one of the syrian passports, a syrian passport did pass through greece. this is a syrian passport that was found by one of the attackers. a greek official told us that the syrian passport went through greece and that syrian passport was then later registered in serbia as part of the refugee trail. there have also been people questioned and detained in germany. family members of attackers arrested here in france. so this is an investigation that is widening. people here do not believe that this is a situation where there were a lone group of seven or eight attackers that had support and that had support in many countries. let's talk about the underestimating of isis as a potential global terror network for years, for the first part of this war with isis, the assumption was isis did not have this kind of ambitions that were similar to al qaeda. i understand you say actually that is not the case. they've always had this ambition. explain.

>> reporter: isis has always been an incredibly ambitious organization. i think what we're seeing right now is an evolution of isis. one very senior expert described it to me like this that isis started out establishing its own base and consolidating its support at home declaring a caliphate in iraq and syria. then it moved to phase two exporting all of its branches mostly into the islamic world and mostly where the arab spring had failed. now we're seeing isis phase 3 and it's getting more sophisticated and claiming more responsibility for downing the isis plane and then this commando-style raid in paris, stage four would see isis moving even further west trying to carry out an attack in the united states. yes, u.s. terrorism officials have been underestimating isis. they never thought that it had this kind of capability.

when paris first happened u.s. officials told me they thought it was going to be al qaeda because they thought al qaeda was the kind of organization that looked abroad, looked to carry out complex attacks and you remember the president once described as isis as the jv team. if it was the jv team. it is no longer the jv team and probably hasn't been for quite some time. >> richard, when you underestimate that probably means you're getting bad intelligence. what is our situation? we're not getting good intelligence about isis because if we were wouldn't we have a better assessment of their capabilities? >> reporter: when you talk to investigators here it's not a question of not getting good intelligence. it's that there's too much intelligence. there are simply too many people. there are probably 3,000 to 5,000 people just in france that officials are concerned about. you have thousands of people a day moving along the migrant trail. one of the most chilling aspects of this entire situation is that

possible connection to the migrant trail. i was just in lesvos a few days ago, thousands of people are arriving, between 5,000 and 10,000 to just that single greek island. most of them have no documentation. the greek officials are trying to take them in, offer them humanitarian assistance, there are volunteers there, but frankly, people have no idea who they are. so if someone left to join isis in syria or iraq, that would be a good way for them to come back under the radar and re-integrate themselves into society even before anyone has a chance to find out. so, yes, it is an intelligence failure, but it could be a situation where there's so much intelligence that the traditional means are falling behind. >> richard engel in paris on the ground for us. appreciate your reporting and as always, sir, stay safe. just before we went on air i spoke to the french justice minister christiane tobura. she's the equivalent of the u.s. attorney general and revealed

that the french authorities know who the bombers were and are working in cooperation with belgium, spain and germany. i then asked her if france would escalate its war against isis in syria. here's her answer. >> it's an act of war and it is a war and it is a war against civilian people. it is a war against our shared values. it is a war against what we are and what i observe is that this wouldve orders to kill people and kill themselves. >> earlier, isis has been contained a phrase he is regretting right now and that was an earlier declaration and position when he said the u.s. aim was to degrade and destroy isis. joining me to discuss the u.s. response to the attacks is ben rhodes, deputy national security adviser for the president and he's traveling with him in turkey. mr. rhodes, welcome to "meet the press". >> good to be with you, chuck. >> let me start with french

president holaroulande called t an act of war. does the president concur that this was an act of war and does that change america's footing? >> we absolutely agree that this was an act of war and our hearts go out to the people of paris who suffered this terrible attack. the fact is, chuck, we've been at war with isil for some time over more than a year now we've conducted thousands of air strikes and we provide arms to forces fighting them on the ground, but this will be a long-term campaign to disrupt and ultimately defeat isil and we'll have to continue to redouble our efforts in partnership with allies like france. >> you know, a year ago president obama said isis could not be -- was something that could not be contained and in an interview earlier this week just days before these attacks he said isis has been contained and can you say they've been contained in iraq and syria when they've escalated to three terrorist attacks in the last ten days with the russian airliner, beirut and now paris?

that is not a contained organization. >> well, chuck, the president was referring very specifically to the question of isil's geographic expansion in iraq and syria. they had been on the march in iraq and syria, but we were able to halt that expansion and we've been able to push back and reclaim territory from isil in both iraq and syria including most recently in an operation with our kurdish allies on the ground in iraq where they weraible to take the strategic town of sinjar, cutting off one of the key supply lines between the capital for isil raqqa and syria and mosul which has been a principal base of operations for isil in iraq so we have been able to apply pressure and take back territory, but at the same time, of course, we are seeing isil aimed to project power beyond the borders of iraq and syria and most tragically in the attacks in paris. >> what is it that you guys have gotten wrong in underestimating

ice snis. >> we understand the threat from isil and the fact of the matter is when we launched our air campaign the president was very clear that this would be a long-term effort and this is a different type of terrorist enemy that aims to hold territory and that is drawing thousands of recruits and that's why we've been in this effort launching thousands of air strikes targeting isil leadership including jihadi john in syria and we're in this for the long haul and we are very clear about the threat we face and that's why we have a coalition of 65 countries in this effort and many of whom are here in the g-20 who the president will be seeing in the next few days. >> do you believe the strategy the president is implementing is working? because to a lot of people, democrats and republicans there's not enough of a sense of urgency. it doesn't seem to be working and if anything, isis looks like they're more ambitious than ever. >> chuck, clearly, there will have to be an intensification of our efforts and all we have to

do is look at what has worked in the application of the strategy and what hasn't. we've been able to get equipment arms like the kurds in northern iraq and like the forces we partnered with in northern syria and backed by the air power and what we're doing is seeking to gain additional contributions from some of the coalition partners so that we're able to bring more force to bear on that effort. >> does the president have pause about bringing syrian refugees into the united states. no, chuck, we have very extensive screening procedures and there's a very careful vetting process that includes our intelligence community and the national counterterrorism center and the department of homeland security so we can make sure to screen anybody that comes into the united states. we are also dealing with people who suffer the horrors of war, women, children and orphans and we can't just shout our doors t those people and we do need to do our part to take those

refugees in need. >> are you prepared for france to invoke article 5 in the charter? an attack on one is an attack on all. >> that's a decision for the french to make. what we've made clear to the french is we'll be shoulder to shoulder to them in this response and they're in the campaign with iraq and syria already. clearly they want to energize their efforts and there is a french two-star general positioned at centcom to help that go forward and we're confident in the coming days and weeks we'll be able to identify our strikes to make clear there is no safe haven for these terrorists. >> ben rhodes, deputy adviser with president obama traveling with him to turk pep thanks for coming on "meet the press". >> we now have video that appears to show the beginning of the attack which was the eagles of death metal. the pops of sound at the end of the video appear to be the first gun fire. a warning. the video may be disturbing. ♪ ♪

♪ [ gunshots ] >> again, we'll run it one more time here and you will see the drummer and the guitarist there, both of them of the eagles of death metal band. they sit there and you watch essentially they're running for cover. ♪ [ gunshots ] >> we haven't fully verified the video, but it appears to be just that, speaking of that concert hall, we have remarkable firsthand account from a survivor of the shooting spree. her name is teresa sie. she described the horror to our correspondent richard engel. >> we heard gunshots and terrorists stormed into the concert hall and were shooting madly around everywhere, and we all dropped to the floor and tried not to move and not to be

hit. so there were gunshots. they said at the very beginning something they mentioned syria in french. stay down or we'll show you. don't move. stay down and they still continued to shoot. i was next to a guy that got shot in the head that fell on me so i was covered underneath his body, and i stopped moving and i did not move. that was the main thing and we tried to give them the message to not move. there was another guy hurt that was complaining a lot so we tried to whisper to him, do not make a sound. at some stage there was a grenade that was thrown or two and there was an explosion, and more shots and more shots and more shots. >> what were you thinking this whole time? >> i was just thinking do not move and i was thinking about my

boys. i thought might this be it? will i see them again and will i be the next shot? from one minute to the next it's just like every time you hear the shots you think, okay, is this me? if i'm hit now am i going to be able to be quiet or -- >> you could see the police? >> i could see the police. they didn't storm and they came very slowly and their guns at first and they were moving in very well protected, and they were also, like, we kept saying don't, don't because people were starting to raise their hand, help us, and get us out of here and sat some stage they just said whoever can, if you can walk, if you can crawl, whatever, out, out, out, out now. >> when you came your boys were there. >> my boys were there, yeah. >> what was the first thing when you came home? >> i just hugged my boyfriend and then i went to see them and -- and cleaned myself. >> you were covered in -- >> i was completely covered. yeah. >> again, that was teresa

sharing her powerful firsthand account of the attacks in that theater. our thanks to her for sharing her powerful story. she essentially had to play dead to survive. >> we'll have much more on this special edition of "meet the press qwe press." do we need a now strategy to defeat ice snsiisis? if so, what is it? if a denture were to be

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to no one's surprise the attacks played a large part and here's some of what they said on the issue of paris. >> we have to look at isis as the leading threat of an international terror network. it cannot be contained, it must be defeated, but it cannot be an american fight, and i think what the president has consistently said which i agree with is that we will support those who take the fight to isis. >> i would disagree with secretary clinton respectfully on this score. this actually is america's fight. it cannot solely be america's fight. america is best when we work in collaboration with our ally, but also our role in the world. yes, is also to confront evil when it rises and we took out the evil in afghanistan and now there is a larger safe haven and we must rise to this occasion

and with collaboration. >> i don't think any sensible person would disagree that the invasion of iraq led to the massive level of instability. i think that was one of the worst foreign policy blunders in the history of the united states. >> we'll have more how it may impact the race for president overall and also coming up later in the show remember toer florida governor jeb bush joins me. does it change republican voter attitudes or is that two outsider candidates? we'll be right back. ♪ ♪ ♪ discover card hey! so i'm looking at my bill and my fico credit score's on here. yeah! we give you your fico credit score. for free! awesomesauce! the only person i know that says that is... lisa? julie? we've already given more than 175 million

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we are back, of course, the fear after the horror of paris is that something similar could actually take place here. to discuss the threat of isis and what it poses to the united states i am joined by michael leiter who joined under presidents bush and obama. from texas, republican congressman michael mccall, he's of course, chairman of the house homeland security committee and just two months output out a bipartisan report called

combatting terrorist and foreign fighter travel. congressman, thanks very much. michael leiter, let me start with you. we thought only al qaeda was capable of some sort of global reach. what did the intelligence community that you were a member of consistently underestimate about isis. >> it's not clear to me that on the strategic level that they did get this wrong. there have been a lot of warnings that isis wasn't just going to stay in its caliphate in syria and iraq. the tactical community clearly missed this attack and they clearly missed the attack in egypt and i think people that have been watching terrorism for a long time knew that isis was never going to be satisfied staying. >> how do you explain the obama administration's policy here? >> i think that's where we have the real delta. you have the intelligence community saying strategically they won't be satisfied staying there and they will come to the west and then you have a policy which frankly, isn't sufficiently robust and muscular to really defeat that enemy as it starts to move to the next stage.

>> chairman mccall, you've been -- this report they referenced earlier, and i want to quote from it, gaping security weaknesses overseas especially in europe are putting it easier to migrate to foreign hot spots and for jihadists to return to the west. one of the closest national security vaeszor say they're confident with procedures in dealing with refugees and you and your democratic partners here, this was not just your report. this was a bipartisan report. you seem to believe there were a lot of holes. explain. >> there were a lot of holes, gaping holes and a lot of foreign fighters. we have 5,000 foreign fighters in europe that travel to the region and come back. this is what happened in paris. we've had hundreds of americans that traveled and many of them have come back, as well. i think that's a direct threat. when you get to the syrian refugee issue we think two of

these terrorists were actually syrian refugees. this causes a grave concern on the part of policymakers because we don't want to be complicit with a program that could bring in terror to the united states and quite frankly, i disagree with ben rhodes and i've been briefed by the fbi and homeland security and they tell me that this cannot be properly dealt and we don't have the databasis to vet them in the past. >> you noted in the report that there is no international daysa base and the report actually blames europe, that there's not enough cooperation with some of the european allies. can this get up and running fast? >> well, it has to. i think france is a bit of ahead of the curve because they know what the threat is. the european parliament needs to pass legislation two for instance pass eu citizens and pass a watch list. you can fly in from istanbul airport in turkey where the foreign fighters go and not even get checked past a watch list going into europe and the visa

waiver countries that can essentially come in the united states with western passports and that's where the homeland gets implicated. >> the panel is here and i want to bring everyone here and my colleague here at nbc, chief foreign affairs correspondent andrea mitchell and the write turn column with the of heavy emphasis and jeff greenfield, a former columnist, for cnn, nbc, and you have a question. >> everyone wants to seem to evoke a response and if its it's something more like a state. are we kidding ourselveses? can this be done with a large infulgz without combat troops? >> the answer is no. we may not need the same number we needed when we went into iraq, but we need more troops to push the iraqis faster and we node more than special operations to take the fight there and we need to make clear that they don't stand a chance against us and right now we are

basically playing even and that helps the movement beyond syria and iraq see that this is an attractive army to fight for in. >> you said playing each and the containment line. >> absolutely. we are not overwhelming them with force. >> andrea? >> congressman mccall, he said we are arming foreign fighters and he is talking about the peshmerga and the failure to set up the syrian resistance against assad. where do you stand on that? what should the administration do now that paris has happened? doesn't this change the whole equation? >> i think paris changes everything and it's gal zhannizing the entire world to deteet and destroy isis and not just to contain them. that's been the policy of this administration is to contain them. that isis would be contained i would hate to see what isis looks like unleashed. >> we've had three major external operations and the latest being in paris and the russian airliner.

these look like more sophisticated al qaeda plots and we're realizing that isis now has the capability not to establish a caliphate, but to expand this mission beyond and conduct external operations and we need to have nato coalition forces in there. we need air strikes that don't have rules of engagement behind them and we need to have the sunni arabs putting skin in the game to protect their own backyard and their own religion? >> jennifer? >> i think what we see here and what michael delicately alluded to is a complete divorce between what is necessary and what the president and the administration is willing to do. >> they have this vision that they are ending wars. they are not ending wars. they have a vision that they'll do a light footprint and they'll let the countries in the region handle it. that is false and what we see now is this imbalance between what we will need which i do believe will include a significant american force and what they are willing to do. what is telling is the person that they put out to talk to the shows this morning was ben

rhodes, an administration white house official not a national security person, not someone respected in the national community or in the international community. they are fighting a political p.r. battle and not a national security battle. >> gene, did you have a question? >> my question is given what jen just said, given that there's an obvious reluctance on the part of the president to go further, for congressman mccall, have you seen any indication from the administration and from the white house that attitudes may be changing in the wake of paris? >> i think maybe reluctantly they will change. i think they have to, what happened in paris was so horrific on such a large scale that we can't afford not to respond to what happened, and i do think you will see the nations coming together soon talking about what will be the nato coalition response to this, and the league of nations need to be a part of this, as well.

>> it's got to be under u.s. leadership with special forces embedded and i agree, we're not going to put a hundred u.s. troops on the ground nor should we. this is a policy of defeat and destruction and not just this containment issue. we have to deal with it at its core or you will continue to see these terrorist attacks not only in europe, but what i'm most concern side an attack against the united states and the homeland. >> congressman mccall joining us from texas this morning. thanks very much. appreciate it again. you guys put out this report. i know you have it there, people should read it. combatting terrorists and foreign fighter travel and a bipartisan report from capitol hill, michael leiter, you are stuck sticking around with us and we want you here for the rest of the show. when we come back, jeb bush joins us to talk about the fight against terrorism and a presidential campaign that may see itself shaken up by the

events in paris, and as we head to break, i want to share with you this photo. this is u2 laying flowers outside the bataclan concert hall. they canceled a concert out of respect for the victims of friday's attacks. out of respec victims of friday's attack. i know how it is. you're all set to book a flight using your airline credit card miles. and surprise! those seats sometimes cost a ridiculous number of miles, making it really hard to book the flight you want. luckily, there's a better way... with the capital one venture card. with venture, you'll earn unlimited double miles on every purchase, every day. and when you're ready to travel, just book the flight you want, on any airline, then use your miles to cover the cost. now you're getting somewhere. what's in your wallet?

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debate with the republican presidential candidates have also been reacting. here is a sample. >> we ask that our leaders understand this is not some random, ill-defined violent extremism. this evil, radical islamic terrorism needs to be called out. >> you can say what you want, but if they had guns, if our people had guns, if they were allowed to carry it would have been a much, much different situation. >> if we take in, you know, thousands of people from that area it would be almost malpractice for the global jihadists not to infiltrate them with their people. >> i am angry that just yesterday morning our president against all evidence, declared isis contained and took a victory lap.

isis is not a jv team, mr. president. they are not contained. they are at our shores and they measure their victory in body count. >> this is a clash of civilizations. either they win or we win. >> coming up, one candidate you didn't see, governor jeb bush. he'll join me after the break. for adults with an . advanced lung cancer called "squamous non-small cell", previously treated with platinum-based chemotherapy, it's not every day something this big comes along. a chance to live longer with... opdivo, nivolumab. opdivo is the first and only immunotherapy fda approved based on a clinical trial demonstrating longer life... ...for these patients. in fact, opdivo significantly increased the chance of living longer versus chemotherapy. opdivo is different. it works with your immune system. opdivo can cause your immune system to attack normal organs and tissues in your body

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welcome back and the aftermath of the paris attack, the next commander in chief will face no tougher task than chasing down isis. joining me now is presidential candidate, jeb bush. welcome back to "meet the press". >> thank you. >> ben rhodes believes we are at war. the french president says weir at war. there are wars that are tactical and then wars against an ideology. how do you defeat the ideology? >> you take it to them in syria and iraq. you destroy isis and you build a

coalition to replace this radical islamic terrorist threat to our country and to europe and to the region with something that is more peace loving. we have to be engaged in this. this is not something you can contain. each day that isis exists it gains new energy and more rekruts around the world. >> you know, everything is a divide here. there's democracy and security and stability. for instance, in dealing with isis, our coalition partners like turkey and sawudi arabia, they care about dealing more with assad than dealing with isis, should the united states push the pause button on getting rid of assad? >> no. i think we node to do both. we need to build that force up which is not what's happening. this is viewed as a law enforcement exercise by the obama administration. we should declare war and harness all of the power that the united states can bring to bear both diplomatic and military, of course, to be able

to take out isis. we have the capabilities of doing this. we just haven't shown the will. >> so what is it that you would like to see the president do? let's set the campaign aside here. in the next two weeks, you want president obama to do what, governor? >> declare a no-fly zone over syria. directly arm the peshmerga forces in iraq. re-engage with the sunni tribal leaders. embed with the iraqi military. be able to create safe zones in syria. garner the support of our european allies and the traditional arab states. lead. that's what i want him to do. i want him to lead. he has the capability to do this. we have the resources to do this and this is a threat to western civilization and we should continue to see it that way. >> what do you tell an american publ public? nothing has changed in the middle east. we had a terrorist before 9/11. we now have a terrorist threat now. what policy works because we've

tried intervention and we've tried toppling dictators and we've tried nation building. none of it has worked. what do you tell the american public. >> a caliphate the size of indiana garners strength if it's not taken out. 30 to 40,000 battle-tested soldiers that are organized to destroy our way of life. my heart goes out to the people of paris, and this will continue on. we have to be in this fight. there is no other option, and this threat can be contained and more importantly it will never -- it will never die unless it's destroyed and the policy of containment isn't going to work and it's a policy of incremental just rin are running out the closo the next president should have to deal with. should i be the next president of the united states i promise you i will. >> some of the closest advisers are people of your brother's administration, a foreign policy in the middle east that essentially the public rejected in 2008. why should they trust you to bring back that same foreign

policy. >> the world will be dramatically different in 2017 than it was in 2000 and we need to be focused on the future. there is a threat on western civilization and this is how they're organized and containing isis isn't going to work. taking it out, we have the capability of doing it and the focus ought to be on the future and not the past. >> is this, do you believe, what do you say to voters that right now they want outsiders and they don't care that they don't have a lot of experience. do you think what happened in paris should change the mindset of the voter and what's your case to make them do that? >> i think as we get closer to the primaries people want to know who can sit behind the big desk in who has the judgment and the temperament to lead this country? and if you listen to some of the candidates speaking about syria, for example, they're all over the map. i laid out a strategy two months ago at the reagan library and it's the prober strategy to destroy isis and to have change in the ring eem related to assad

so there can be peace and security in the region and lessening the threat to our own national security. >> would you trust ben carson or donald trump as commander in chief right now? >> i don't know. the words that i hear them speaking give me some concern, but that's why we have campaigns, chuck, as you know. everybody will have a chance to lay out their visions. i'm more concerned about hillary clinton thinking that the united states doesn't have a leadership role in this. that's my big concern. if you listen to the democrats debate ago on. >> so you agree with governor o'malley. >> about what? >> about america -- that this is america's leadership role, that this is america's fight more so than it is the world's fight. >> it's both. i think governor o'malley probably agrees with me that we need to lead if he's suggesting to that, kudos to him. we cannot lead from behind and we have to take a leadership role to inspire the arab partners and the european count ryes and nato allies and all of them together create a strategy, act on it and unleash a strategy

on isis and will be successful. >> let me go to the refugee issue. would you -- do you believe we should still try to accept some of these syrian refugees and if not, what do you do with them? >> the great majority of refugees need to be safely kept in syria which means the safe zones need to be serious. we need to build a coalition that can fight both aside and isis and give people safe haven. i do think we have a responsibility in help with refugees after proper screening, and i think our focus ought to be on the christians that have no place in syria, anymore. they're being beheaded and executed by both sides and ultimately, the best way to deal with refugees is to have a strategy to take out isis and i sad and do that actively. >> that will mean some boots on the ground. >> absolutely. it ought to be designed by our

military without their hands tied. we ought to know exactly what it will take and we can't do it alone. that's an important lesson from history, but we need to lead, but for the united states who will take the leadership role? i think having a no-fly zone will be an important part of this and there are many other things that we need to do in concert with our allies. >> all right. governor bush talking to me from miami this morning. stay safe on the trail, sir. >> ythanks, chuck. >> quick reaction from the panel. you all want to jump in. go for it. >> what i heard is a quick attack against hillary clinton and even though she did better than i think her two colleagues on the national security so she opened up some lines for the republicans to jump in, and you know, she refused to talk about radical islam. she said it wasn't necessarily america's to lead and she was playing diplomat and i also heard her last night saying that she disagreed with the president about containment. so she's already distancing

herself. >> the two of you, jeff and jennifer were whispering when i asked the question about donald trump. >> i can hear the bush advisers saying for god sakes remember nancy reagan. just say no. no, donald trump and carson. >> you're nodding your head over here. it's absurd. he's making the argument that these people are not equipped and they don't have the knowledge and the experience and yet when asked the question would you trust them as commander in chief i think the appropriate answer is a no and frankly what is interesting is i think he's going to expand that argument. it's not just trump and carson who have the problem. it's people like cruz, who is opposed to putting ground troops in the united states and has called syria a civil war. there are a lot of candidates and not just the most extreme, the most ignorant one, but a variety of other candidates who are vulnerable and i think jeb bush should do so putting the views to the people. >> he's afraid to take them on

because what he has seen is what happens when you go after donald trump. >> there is a large portion of the republican electorate that doesn't want to put boots on the ground. >> i play both sides, and it's 67% in our favor. >> there is something about the era of discussion. it would take 30,000 to 40,000 troops, people, to get rid of isis. that's the private assessment of the government. they're good at assessing. >> they say 30,000 to 40,000. >> no. somebody's got to come up with those troops and who is it supposed to be? the answer is if you decide to do it it will be the united states. >> michael leiter assess what you heard on the policy front. i'm not going to ask you to weigh in on the political front. >> thank you very much. >> what do you hear from governor bush about what he got right and what he got wrong? >> one, assad remains the core of this problem. until we have a good strategy to get rid of assad, isis will

continue to prosper. he is the root of the problem. the second is many of the policy solutions that he suggested, the no-fly zone, the safe zones. those are hard. for the past three month they've been a whole lot harder about russia and what putin has putsi what putin put in the systems. >> i just want to go back to politics. what we learned, whoever said politics stops at the water's edge, needs a gps. it is obvious. this is another example where we will find out if the law of gravity will be repealed. if you think this conventionally would drive people from trump and carson, oh, my heavens, serious existential threat, we know someone that know he the turf. every time we make that assumption, up to the lonesome road rant, it is no.

>> we heard from congressman mccall about getting nato involved. you have russia under the air. you can't have nato and russia fighting the same war in the same region at the same time. what kerry was acknowledging yesterday in vienna is that assad isn't going to go. we will let assad stay -- >> you brought up the rant. before paris, there were some people that thought, is this the beginning of the end. here is what trump did to carson. >> he took a knife and went after a friend and lunged, he lunged that knife into the stomach of his friends. but lo and behold, it hit the belt. it hit the belt. and the knife broke. give me a break. >> he also cursed, insulted iowa voters. >> and says that paris has gun control issue two days later. >> i think that jeb bush, other folks making some of the

arguments about russia, about assad are really going to have to man up and really are going to have it take it to the people who are really not speaking on any logic or speaking from any position of authority. i think when donald trump says something like this, you don't hear from the bush campaign instantaneous response. >> they better go after it. >> and the key to this thing and we have been missing this for months, for the trump supporters, what they say is, fine, look what the experts did. that in some cases ends the argument. >> i'm not going to end the argument, but i'm going to pause the argument. we will have more on last night's democratic debate, including a decision by hillary clinton to defend wall street donations and envoc 9/11.

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so what else can you give me? same day delivery. the ottoman? thank you. fico scores are used in 90% of credit decisions. so get your credit swagger on. go to experian.com, become a member of experian credit tracker, and take charge of your score. . as the big voice said, it is "end game" time. andrea, i know you want to jump on this, but let's play the clip. hillary clinton getting attacked by bernie sanders for taking so much donations on wall street. here is her rebuttal to sanders. >> i represented new york on 9/11 when we were attacked. where we we attacked? we were attacked in downtown manhattan where wall street is.

i did spend a whole lot of time and effort helping them rebuild. that was good for new york, good for the economy and away it rebuke the terrorists that attacked our territory. >> that reminds you of rudy giuliani when he was running for president. that is being picked up by a lot of people. >> i have to say, does this matter? i want to show a women excerpt of a focus group. democratic voters last night on who do you trust on terrorism. here is a quick tape. >> three candidates on the stage tonight, who do you think is more capable of dealing with issues like terrorism? hillary, bernie or o'malley? how many say o'malley? okay. how many say sanders? how many say hillary? the entire group. >> that kind of says it. >> these are democrat voters. >> she is a senator. >> she speaks about it

knowledgeably. you can agree or disagree. but you don't think she would be lost. >> i think these are dedemocrat voters. in a general campaign does someone like a jeb bush, marco rubio, chris christie who gave a fiery speech yesterday, take her on and say, you know, madam secretary, you were secretary of state. you were the one who was saying al qaeda was on the run. you supported the president in these policies. you're responsible. for and she better have a better explanation than what she gave during the debate. >> with war or terrorism or even crime in the '80, it tends to swing right and swing too secure. the fact that she was there, whenever the merit, compared to her opponents and most of the republicans, is an advantage. but i do agree, once again that the -- or at least we have to hold our fire. i keep thinking from this entire

campaign, that is possible that all of the laws of political gravity are in suspension. if that's the case, you may find people saying insiders didn't know what they were doing. time for somebody outside. >> michael, you work with her in times like this. are the voters right? >> i think in fairness she was stronger than the president. she was with david petraeus and others in 2011 and 2012, saying, let's get involved in syria. counterterrorism broadly, certainly on the bin laden raid. i think the secretary was very strong. i think she understands the limits of u.s. power. frau frankly, we know, she is more hawkish than the current president. >> and more experience with insiders, at times of crisis we don't know if voters largely will go for the big man, strong man theory, that donald trump for all his lack of experience in this field may be appealing to people. i think we have all been long all along in this campaign.

as you say, laws of conventional experience and gravity, may not hold. >> we don't know how personally threatened voters feel either. we were making assumptions and i kind of, you know, i felt what happened in paris a lot. but i'm just not sure how people are going to feel this year. >> did everything change, jeff? everything changes for 48 hours. >> only time will tell. but i do have a serious point. the one word no one should use about these attacks was senseless. isis knew exactly what they were doing. that word should be struck from the vocabulary of anyone speaking of this. >> it was not random. >> right now she is in a democratic primary. does she reappear or reapply that persistence or hug the president close. >> all right, you got the last word in there. terrific word. we will be back next week, because if it's sunday, it's

"meet the press." good evening. the french government says french launched air strikes against the isis held city of raqqa in syria. that's the group's defacto tap pal. this after 129 people were killed in paris on friday. following a series of coordinated attacks targeting restaurants, soccer stadium and concert hall. video of that last attac