breaking news this morning. dramatic raids play out overnight as police exchange gun fire with suspects in the paris terror attacksment right now, at least one person is dead, five arrested in raids targeting the suspected lynch pin at the

center of it all. >> plus playing out overnight in the skies as two air france jets departing from the u.s. diverted in route to paris after bomb threats are called in. >> meanwhile, russia steps up is tacks of isis in syria joining the air campaigns of france and the united states. good morning everyone. let's get to the dramatic overnight developments. gun fire, explosions and stand off in france as authorities fight back to plunge the city of light into darkness. suspects are in custody and one is dead in a raid that has just been declared over by the french government after beginning 4:20 local time more than seven and a half hours ago. the reported target of the raid, the suspected organizer of the attacks who police believed was in the apartment with several

other heavily armed people. police stormed the building and national police said five officers were injured. those injuries are not life threatening. the paris prosecutors office says one woman in the apartment activated her explosive built at the beginning of the assault and is dead. according to wire reports, one person, one other person was killed as well. four men and another woman in the apartment were extracted by the special operations raid department. the associated press says a total of seven are under arrest. take a listen from some of the sound from the gun battle and later the explosion.

paris police express concerns possibly monitoring media after several tense hours with heavily armed soldiers and police crouch and ready for action a man was seeing being run away. french president -- and a cabinet meeting is being held. >> nbc news senior white house correspondent chris jansing is live in paris and been covering the story all night long.

we also have bill neely. he's in the naebd wheeighborhoo the raid took place. bill, let's start with you. >> reporter: yes, good morning, joe. good morning, mika. those extraordinary sites and sounds you heard are 300 yards down that road. the operation according to the government is officially over. the police here looking really rather relaxed. i'm in the historic neighborhood where about a mile from the national said yum where three suicide bombers blew themselves up friday night. this morning, here it happened again. police launched an operation against what they initially described was several people in an apartment just on that road. as they began that assault a woman with a suicide vest on blue herself up. since then, i can give you the latest figures.

it's a seven hour siege. ended just a short time ago at the end of which we believe two people are dead, a man and woman. seven people are arrested. five police officers were injured but not seriously. we also understand a civilian passer by was also injured. the man killed was shot possibly by a police sniper. that's what they told us earlier anyway. as i said, it began around 4:30 in the morning and over the next roughly three hours, these were the signs people in the neighborhood heard. i talked to multiple people who said the gun fire was extraordinary. they hear the occasional gunshot around here, the result of petty crime or robbery but this one man told me was like a war zone and you can hear as well as the gunshots clearly from automatic weapons, there were stun grenades, as i said, a woman

blew herself up with suicide vest. there were clearly more explosives used. the target of the raid was the ring leader of the whole series of attacks in paris. we have been told he was in syria. we don't know whether the police thought he was in syria but either it's an intelligence catastrophe that he was here in paris all along or some kind of intelligence success that perhaps they knew he was here. it's not confirmed, however, that he is one of the dead. we don't know who the female was who blew herself up. just about an hour and a half ago, the operation seemed to end. i saw one man being led out of a building under the custody of at least four police officers.

he had a shirt on and it appeared he had nothing on underneath that. we don't know who he was and police officers were holding guns to his head. it's possible he was the seventh person arrested here at the scene. really quiet extraordinary events here. as you can see the police appear to go preparing for some kind of news conference. there are dozens of fire officers, ambulance and police still there. a lot of the army have now left the area. for a large part of this morning it looked like a war zone. >> encredible. thank you very much. we'll be watching for the news conference. let's go to chris jansing in paris and the president. i understand he's being briefed on what's going down. >> that's right. he was kept apprised of what was going on as the operation was

unfolding over the seven hours. he is going to be meeting with french president as we have been reporting at the white house in the oval office next tuesday but this is someone whoever world leader knows about, this possible suspect. they thought he was killed last fall and police picked up his cell phone that he was on it in greece and then he returned to his old neighborhood in brus ls. there was another time they had a raid not quiet this extensive but a raid in belgium and thought they had him. they killed two others who were considered to be accomplices of his. it's not just that he is

believed to be the master mind behind this, but he is someone with great recruiting skills. first of all, to say he's the master mind, you have to understand he is someone whose able to bring together a group of people who are suicidal and willing to kill themselves to perpetrate these attacks on friday night but also been the face of a lot of recruiting. part of the problem, we've heard president obama talk about this. isis has a remarkable ability to recruit. he's been the face of a number of online videos, including one very graphic where he's in a van dragging along bodies that are going to be buried in mass graves. on a whole lot of levels, this would be an extraordinary thing for police. >> a sign that it's an active scene there in paris. we have video where there is an on going police activity that

we're monitoring. we don't know what it is yet. we're keeping an eye on that. >> that's a historically significant basilla where this it is an area that's a historic district where most of french royalty has been buried. >> not sure if it's a serious situation but one of the many things percolating at this hour. with us in washington we have michael steel. columnist and associate editor for the washington post david. manager editor bloomberg politics and in new york the president of the counsel on foreign relations richard haas. >> how surreal to see these images we're roos to seeing out of bayroot and baghdad, shots ringing out in the night and explosions and realizing we're

looking at paris 2015. new frontlines on terror. >> there are stunning images. this is a war taking place in a subu subu suburb we're all familiar with. you can only imagine what french people are feeling this morning. i'm sure they're saying this war is in our midst. this is going to be a long process. this is the beginning. the attack that took place last friday night was complex, coordinated and people had been planning it for a long time. >> this is different than what secreta secretary kerry said yesterday which caught a lot of our attention. anybody can just go and shoot up caves and concert halls but this actually did take a degree of sophistication. >> i think anybody looks at this against a background of terrorism operations would say to bring together all of the

people to do six simultaneous attacks in difrent parts of the city. the planning, coordination, timing. >> this is not just anybody. >> one thing that should worry all of us is the person that was the target this morning has been known to french and u.s. intelligence officers and for months they've been trying to go after him and the fact he continues to slip through people's fingers and finally, apparently help coordinate a disastrous attack friday night, it's deeply troubling. this is a failure on 9/11 and i think the french are going to have to think about that and have a formal investigation. what went wrong? why weren't the dots connected? >> and the main suspect whose been stopped several times richard haas, obviously, the french have been aggressively

pursuing terrorist in their midst but there have been several intelligence failures that led to this attack. >> exactly. as david said, there are certain parallels which appear to be parallels here at 9/11. you have most of the information you actually needed. the problem is whether the information is in the right hands at the right times and whether people see certain organizations or whether matters get in the way. certain immune case isn't happening. it's a reminder this is so many dimensions and by time you get t to shoot outs, it's a degree of failure. the whole idea is to prevent people from getting there in the first place or monitoring them so they can't get to the point

they're mounting actual operations. >> i brought up john kerry this morning. it's, we understand this is extraordinarily difficult situation. it's hard to imagine the administration getting more things wrong tonely, at least. the president's disastrous press conference a few days ago. john kerry tried to justify it first and pull back or at least explain the attacks of charlie. he said you can understand why they would do that if you looked at the reasoning and then misstating the facts on the ground, underestimating the degree of sophistication on the attacks and while anybody that wants to blow themselves up can blow themselves up. >> john ernst is going to be coming up. >> what's going on inside the administration? why is there a constant effort to underplay the significance of the threat from isis? >> and sec retear kerry has a

history when he's tired in particular. now is not a time for any leader to be speaking inprecisely. they're going to have to deal with the french and the russians in telling around the world not just in france there's going to be an international coalition to defeat isis and both secretary kerry and the president need to focus on their words every day now. >> the russians are coordinating now with the united states and france in attacks against isis targets and you go back to the image of the president huddling up with putin a few days ago and understand things are going in that direction. >> we're monitoring a news conference in paris right now. the french administer is speaking. right now, the president is in manilla, the capitol of the philippines. i don't know if you have captured part of our

conversation but first question to you is the president and administration underestimating the level of the threat and really the reaction to what is happening in paris and around the world right now? >>. >> reporter: good morning, guys. i appreciate you giving me the opportunity to be on the show. the president has focussed on business here in asia. that has not become second to make sure our country is ready. the fact is, the president has laid out a strategy more than a-year-old now for degrading and ultimately destroying the terrorist organization. we have seen stepped up attacks from the french and russian overnight. we welcome those actions focussed against isil. the french have been part of the coalition the president built and has been leading. we offered the contributions.

when it comes to the russians we welcome the change in strategy they're starting to segal and not spending so much time focussed on shoring up their client whose been losing their grip the last several years. >> josh, over the weeked, the whi the white house stated isis had the same capabilities to strike inside the united states as they struck in paris last friday night. is that still the white house's position today? >> well, joe, there's no denying that europe faces a larger risk when it comes to extremist and when it comes to isil than the united states does. that said, the president doesn't take likely the risk that does exist and that's why when the president convened the national security meeting saturday prior

to leaving on this trip, the president met with his secretary of homeland security, director of the fbi and attorney general and all of them participated in the meeting and the president's first question was have we taken the steps we believe are necessary to both prevent attacks in eyes and foul up on on going investigations to make sure we are keeping tabs on those worried about and making sure we take steps to protect those involved in the homeland. this is a priority to the president of the united states. >> josh, i wanted to ask you specifically, what new steps the white house has authorized wefo the u.s. to take to assist france and also what new kinds of military action is the white house contemplating in the wake of these events? as the president announced at

the g20, united states and france have been for some time working the deepen the military cooperation when it comes to syria and we've done that and followed through on that. it's because of the operation and the logistical support that united states can provide that france is in a position to ramp up what they took in raqqah overnight. i think what is also true and what you've also seen is the united states use all law enforcement and intelligence resources to assist the french in their investigation. >> josh, we are committed to be sure we are standing shoulder to shoulder with our oldest allie. >> josh, just to be clear what you mean when what you just said, does that mean we are

providing targeting information to the french so that they can strike isis targets in syria? >> that is the kind of information the united states can provide and the only reason the united states is in the position to do that is more than a year ago the president ordered significant military operations inside of syria being carried out by the united states and our coalition partners. the military strikes of the united states and our coalition partners have taken have laid the ground work and created an opportunity for france to stand up and make their own constitution. we welcome their ramped up contribution but there should be no denying the fact that the french are in the position to carry out this response is because of early investment that the president ordered a year ago. >> josh, the debate over refugees has become intense and

plit sized quickly. the president wednesday attacked republicans in a pretty sharp way. there are those who would say republicans have also amped up their criticism for the president. do you take the point of those you say is income want on the president to call for unity rather than more partisan attacks? >> well, john, the fact of the matter is this red rick that we see from republican candidates for president and for some republican members of congress offering up legislations suggesting we should put a halt to our refugee program, the fact of the matter is legislation like that is more focussed on politics than security. the president believes clearly

redder rancic only serves the isil target. they are leading a war against islam in the west. the fact of the matter is the west is not at war with islam and this is a point that president obama's prese ses sor made on a number of occasions and for republicans to erode that progress and effort and undermine that message only serves to advance the argument of isil. the president standing up and speaking out does serve our national interest and makes clear our political arguments. >> all right, josh, thank you so much. we appreciate you taking time to talk to us from manella. it was fairly extraordinary the president overseas in the middle of this international crisis making jokes about republican

moderators. maybe i'm in a new territory, maybe i'm cynical because i've been a member of congress. i always expect members of congress to pop off and do stupid things and i don't expect the commander in chief to do this. >> you don't. particularly on foreign soil and in the midst of a global crisis and particularly, i think, to get into the muck and myre of politics. that's the most astounding part of it. i get wanting to respond to what republicans may or may not be saying. there is a certain requirement of the white house to rise above and i think that was the point you were making earlier is this is a time where you need to be clear and definite in what you want to say and not political. one of the questions i would ask, josh, is what is the tone coming out of this white house. what is the thinking that

someone is advising the president before or after? >> advising the president. >> yeah, that's just it. do you know how this sounds when you're out here saying these things? >> it's remarkable. it reminded us of what happened with the bp oil spill. us going and talking to the white house saying we know this area and the president was just so tone deaf and went to a long memorial day weekend and they just didn't seem to get it. an oil spill in the gulf of mexico is one thing but you're right. taking partisan shots overseas at governors sitting at 2% in national poles does not seem to be what the president should be busying himself with. >> it's also risen up to the speaker of the house. >> the speaker of the house didn't say anything personal. he talked about a policy that

they are right now debating and other democrats. >> and hillary clinton. >> nobody should take the policy. >> other people are doing it. i'm talking about the quote popping off from the commander in chief. >> there have been republican presidential candidates of all kinds who have taken direct shots at president obama saying he doesn't believe in american leadership. they're playing rough. the president is still the president of the united states and he's the leader of the entire country. there's no reason why the president could not say look, we have an importance in what i think is a counter productive debate. i will engage in that debate when i get back home. i have points i'll make but i'm going to defer on that right now in order to stay focussed. that would serve the stature of the office better. he could make his political arguments. i know he wants to respond to his critics. >> to put into context, he was asked. it's not like he jumped up there

going after low level governors. >> every elite we know in both parties will privately say it's just not the best tone to have right now. >> i'm confused by it. >> is he doing it because he thinks it's better for the country? >> richard haas. >> everybody we've spoken to over the past 24 hours has been stun. richard. >> on the basic strategy, i think it would be very helpful if the president of the white house articulated what they think is a doable strategy of victory right now? what's the rate? then they could talk about what kind of a plan do we think we need to do to bring that about? how many forces? what the united states would be prepared to do in jon junction and part of the coalition with other parties. the french, british, several arab elements and then we can

have a strategy. we simply don't have one and i don't understand what is your definition of near term victory or success here and unless you have that, it's very hard to conduct any sort of an operat n operation. that is what's missing. the president was complaining the other day he wasn't getting credit for the strategy he put out there and claiming his critics offered nothing new. i don't think that's right. people are suggesting we should be in order to bring about a different strategy. >> i've yet to talk, speaking of elites on both sides, i've yet to talk to an elite foreign policy -- >> i want to make one comment. i think what the president is doing at a time when governors are saying no syrian immigrants, no muslim syrian immigrants, the president is standing up as what he thinks of as america's

traditional moral stature and values. those comments are disturbing to a lot of us. there is a vetting procedure in place governors should know about. understandably, governors want to be sure their states are safe but to make announcements at a time like this we don't want any muslims, that's like throwing a match into kerosene. that speaks directly to the nerve of these people who want to kill americans. >> is there not a better way to do that than saying these republicans are scared of debate moderators. >> there's all this room to correct people's language. >> david, david. are you saying to me today that the president has been tonely on point over thehours? >> i would say by comparison republican governors are making the comments. >> we have one commander in chief at the time of an international crisis. >> you have to figure out what

your principle focus of outrage is and i think the comments from the governors hurt our country. >> can i go back to someone who serv served. i remember those security briefings and what that means and understand very much where these governors are coming from and no one seems to appreciate what they have to deal with. when governor was asked yesterday are you ready to take responsibility if one of these migrants come in and something happens? are you ready to take responsibility for that? he stumbled over the answer and that's the point the governors have to deal with. whose going to be responsible if something happens? >> it's not just republicans now concerned. we have a lot to get to. >> but they don't come on the show and lie about whether it's a vetting process. these governors, i think, have been to the point of kind of

ugly. >> still ahead on morning joe. >> they lowered the level of the conversation. >> still ahead on morning joe much more on the situation in paris. french officials gave an update moments ago and we're going to bring you the latest from the ground in france. >> tomorrow we have an exclusive interview from the pentagon. it will be ashton carter's first interview since the attacks in paris. we'll be right back. your loving touch stimulates his senses and nurtures his mind. the johnson's scent, lather, and bubbles help

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33 past the hour. we have an up district attorney on the raid in a neighborhood just north of paris. the french anterior administer just addressed reporters and said seven have been arrested. they are not identifying who were arrested but confirmed who they believe would be found inside the apartment. they are currently not answering questions of whether he was inside. we are waiting an address from president. chris jansing has been covering the breaking news all neat from

paris. chris. >> reporter: that is the key question thaef been asking. was he inside? they aren't saying so far. what we do know is hollande is going to ask for a three month extension of a state of emergency which will allow them to do grethe raids. something that struck me very much is one man who was spoken to by one of our producers who said i wonder if this is just the start? are there going to be more? is this the new normal and i think what a lot of people are waking up to today here in france is not just the question about what exactly happened in that raid but what does it mean.

the security guard looking into people's purses and bags something you would not usually see in paris. looking forward in addition to what is next in the terror investigation is what does it mean for the people of france. joe, mika. all right. chris in paris, thank you very much. coming up, congressman keith ellison joins us. we'll get his perspective as one of only two muslim members of the house. plus, if congress wants to ramp up the fight in the middle east, shouldn't they vote on it first. senator chris gins us here on set. we'll be right back with much more morning joe live from washington.

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two paris bound u.s. flights to be diverted. air france says one flight from los angeles international landed in salt lake city and another one was redirected. the threats were received by phone after take off. one passenger tells nbc news one hour after take off flight attend presidents grabbed plates and said they were making an emergency landing. buses arrived to take passengers

to another location to be interviewed. the fbi released a statement to suggest none of the threats were credible. they're now working to determine the origin. hanover stadium in germany was evacuated yesterday after police called it a concrete threat hours before an exhibition soccer match between germany and the netherlands. the majority of the crowd had not yet entered the 49,000 seat stadium before the match was called off and evacuation orders were given. no arrests were made. in london, a friendly match between england and france went on as scheduled. in a mark of solidarity during what is usually a bitter rivalry, the stadium was lit in the colors of the french flag

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using redder rancic is going to scare isis out there. but apparently they're scared of widows and orphans coming in the united states of america as part of our tradition of compassion. they were worried about the press being too tough on them during the debates. now they're worried about 3-year-old orphans. they've been playing on fear in order to score political points. or to try to advance their campaigns. it's irresponsible. it's contrary to who we are. it needs to stop because the world is watching. >> that was the president last night in the philippines. i've got to go back. is that an appropriate time for the president -- >> joe, watching the president go back to his earlier criticism of republicans who couldn't

handle debate moderators, that's wrong. it's not appropriate in the moment and it's hard to watch that. his point that these arguments keep out syrians, keep out muslims i think is right. i think we're an open country, the statue of liberty tells us to woe that. i think his argument in terms of national security or the world we need to send a message to the world. i agree entirely that the tone he used, the political cut of it, that was wrong. he considers a lot of people out there posing right now and it's irritating him but sometimes. >> it is irritating. all morning long, to just ignore the irritating. >> actually, to unite the country, yes. if you're commander in chief. we have one president. >> i think the, we'll start with the governors who have no jurisdiction over this decision

talking about something they have nothing to do with really merely for political purposes. some are up for re-election and using this, that's ugly. that's not what's called on all of us right now to come together as a country. it's not just the president. all morning long we've been watching the news and police raid in paris where two are dead and seven are under arrest. joining us now democratic senator chris cons of delaware, also the director of international studies, thomas sanderson and former house majority leader who has just endorsed jeb bush for president. >> senator, let's begin with you. what do we need to be looking for from congress? there's more talk about aggressive actions and possibly more boots on the ground. do we need to declare war against isis? >> first, we have been at war against isis since august of last year when we began running

a military action taking carair strikes against them. the president sent an authorizization for military force up to congress in february of this year. we haven't taken it up or debated it or authorized it. that's our constitutional responsibility. it's difficult for us to come to consensus against our policy and strategy but we should. second, we need to do our homework and have a responsible by partisan conversation about what is the refugee screening policy and what are the we weaknesses and threats and what more should we be doing to fund and support the department of homeland security so it can keep us safer and it can make sure as the federal agency making sure to those who come to the country. >> how big of a threat is isis to the homeland? >> it's pretty significant.

not to the degree where they have thousands gone to the battlefield but we have hundreds of individuals who have tried to go or have gone and come back and attack but it's more of the inspired individuals who are heeding the call of isis to kill them where they are. >> what do we do? eric can eric cantor, obviously, he spent a good bit of time in republican leadership and in times like these, what do we need to do as a country? >> does the republican party have responsibility to be seen as a willing partner in the united states? >> i don't think there's any question when we saw the horror last week this sent shock waves to the communities across america and people are scared and i do think the parties need to work together. that's why when we see the president talk like he just did, it rowels up some people to say wait a minute, what we're doing

does not work. we're scared. what we need is a plan. as you said i've endorsed jeb bush since the summertime and when he gave a speak at the reagan library, he said we need a plan not only to rebuild our military but in order to do that but in order to keep america safe. >> jeb bush yesterday morning talking to bloomberg said we have a tradition. it sounded as he too was disagreeing with the republican governors. >> i think where jeb has come from on this is first and foremost we have to keep our country safe. this reaction, we've seen this occur. jeb also said we have to be sure our vetting process is one that works. >> we have one first of all that works. correct? we're having a conversation we all agree. >> it's not as complete as other vetting processes because it's hard to go back and get information from the state of

syria. >> that is usually the case that you are dealing with when dealing with refugees and people persecuted and running from your homeland. we don't have a database to work with. which is why we have a vetting process that lasts for over 18 months for these families where they are given physical tests and interviewed multiple times. why don't you look at the vetting process and tell me what is wrong with it. >> is it good enough to accept 10,000 refugees as the president wants over the next year? >> we have a thur thorough and detailed vetting process. >> should we continue with the president's plan to accept 10,000 syrian refugees over the next year? >> we should be working to make sure the vetting process is thorough and secure as we told it is. we should reassure ourselves. we should move forward to continue accepting refugees that

have been thoroughly vetted and pose no risk to the united states. >> can you give me an answer today on the 10,000 syrian refugees that the president wants to bring in? >> richard haas. >> the vetting process is good and can handle scale but that's not enough. we also need a policy in integration that wants people let in that they are integrated as fully as they can in that society and we need a monitoring policy. this gets into the area of nsa and the issue of private security verses collective security. what if any ways we need to adjust that balance. my view is we need to let these people and it's not consistent with our dna but it's consistent with american security. people are worried about the down side to security of a few bad people getting in. i'm worried about the down side if the united states alienates any of the muslims in the country or around the world if

we direct the barrier but also integrating and monitoring as needed. >> and eric, that's what the united states does. so much better than europe. we do know how to integrate so much better than paris. >> this raises the question of the controversial issue of the collection program. richard talked about the need for us to make sure we're safe once we let folks in. congress went about taking away a lot of those tools. this is something jeb bush has been talking about saying hey, i've said all along we shouldn't be giving up the tools that our law enforcement agencies have to make sure we're safe to watch the potential for home grown terrorist organizations here at home. >> we do understand that we're talking about this after a terror attack in paris which the attackers were french and belgian. not refugees.

correct? >> we have to make sure the people are playing by the rules and keeping the laws. >> richard haas, thank you very much. eric thank you as well. still ahead, the latest informati information from the ground in paris following the place raid which left two dead and seven under arrest. stay with us.

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still ahead this morning, french president is expected to speak. this after multiple raids play out in paris as police make raids connected to friday's attacks. two dead and seven in custody. we'll have the latest reporting from the ground in paris. we'll be right back. earning unlimited cash back on purchases. that's a win. but imagine earning it twice. you can with the citi double cash® card. it lets you earn cash back twice. once when you buy and again as you pay. it's cash back then cash back again. and that's a cash back win-win.

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vrj welcome back to morning joe. live this morning in washington, we want to get back to the developments overnight in paris, france where the clock has just struck 1:00 p.m. seven in custody and two dead in a raid just declared over by the french government after beginning around 4:20 local time. the french anterior minister just addressed reporters with details. they're not identifying the dead or any arrested at this time. but they do confirm they believe the so-called lynch pin of last week's deadly attacks would be found inside the apartment. they are currently not answering questions of whether he was inside or not at this point.

we are awaiting any moment now an address from the president in paris. we'll be going straight to that as it happens. let's bring in nbc news bill neely who is in the neighborhood where the raid took place. bill. >> reporter: good morning everyone. it's about a mile away from the national said yum. three suicide bombers blue themselves up. behind me in a street about 400 yards from here several hours ago a female suicide bomber blue herself up as this extraordinary operation began. starting at about about 4:30 in the morning, they had targeted an apartment where we're told they believed the master mind of the paris massacres was with several other people.

as they approach the apartment or as they went into the building, fairly quickly, that female suicide bomber blew herself up and they followed hours of intense gun fire. take a listen to the sites and sounds of this paris neighborhood. >> reporter: even as that was going on i spoke to one man who described in vivid detail several exploekss in a row. one of them sounded like something more than a stun grenade. that could have been the woman

blowing herself up. the bomb going off does make quiet a noise. so i talked to the paris prosecutor and the anterior minister just about 45 minutes ago. i asked them directly if they could identify the master mind as one of the dead or injured. they said no, it was too early to identify. a man was shot by a police snyper. seven people arrested, five police injured and we also think onsieville canadian passer by may also have been injured. the paris prosecutor said the intelligence that led them to

believe that he was in the apartment was collected from tapped phone conversations from surveillance and from witnesses. there are also indications, joe and mika, this was an active terrorist cell. this is not confirmed by the interior minister yet but police forces. they say what they encounters here this morning and what they heard on the tapped surveillance suggests that this was an isis cell that was planning another attack. there were a lot of weapons and ammunition used.

the assault is now over. we don't know if the leader is dead or among those detained. >> thank you very much, bill. we are waiting to here from french president hollande. we'll go straight to that live. >> you have to be careful second guessing entail agencies. it's just not fair many times to pick one mistake or two mistakes when they get so many things right and so often there's a search for a needle in a hay stack but there's been repeated entail failures here. even down to. they stopped him twice, let him go twice. >> the people of france are going to be deeply upset.

their inability to help u.s. intelligence has been contributing information. we now know about these individuals and the inability to stop this before the terrible loss of life is going to upset the french people much as we were upset after 9/11 going forward that the issue we can see so clearly now is intelligence. unless you have good intelligence you are just on the defensive. you're reacting to these people and in shoot outs in city districts in the middle of paris. i think they'll see going forward they need the intelligence committee to built it quickly. can they build against an adversaadd vo say going to school against us? >> you can almost feel the reset happening as it did after 9/11.

you have the president of france asking for an extended state of emergency. this morning on set we were talking about data collection in the united states and we heard richard haas go yes. you get a sense that suddenly, we're going back to where we were in 2002 and 2003. not only in paris but most likely back in the united states. more aggressive entail collecting. >> that's the point i was just going to make because you heard. they've done a lot to tighten up. you have several points here, court rulings on meta collection data. you're going to have that here possibly in classified briefings and more so in congress. what we are hearing now in congress about refugees is the tip of the iceberg and you have

been toward in pointing out the fact face here. we had a lot of briefings from the state department and white house on how many interviews by homeland on fbi. they go into the refugee camps and it takes a minimum of 18 months and 24 months. that said, governors and political figures and maggie running for senate now. democratic governor is clearly shifting direction. >> we have senator cons here saying that we have to get the process figured out first. >> president hollande is speaking. let's listen in. >> mr. vice president. mayor of paris.

the city at your side. through you. it's france that is gathered here. together in the tragedy united with the same determination to face the circumstances. at the time i'm speaking right here, a question of very penlist nature their heavy has just ended. neutralizing last night a number of terrorist and who are connected to the perpetrators of the terrorist attacks and the crimes of friday night. two of those terrorist died during the assault. they were a number of arrest

made. i can imagine the anxiety that this has created amond i would like to pay tribute to them and say also i'm fully with the mayor who had already gone through the terrorist attacks at the city of france on friday and who one more time was there with the police force when the assault started. lastly, i want to say how grateful we are and how much we admire the police force with them, all the forces that have participated in this operation.

i can't wait. i think also about these. >> we have the president of france talking across the country talking about the raid and it certainly sounded as if the main ring leader was not apprehended there. we're just speculating because he said some that were connected with the attackers. >> if he proves elusive again it will be frustrating at this point. we're still moderating. there was suicide bombing

involved. >> we shall see. >> he did say two of the terrorist, he's defining that as terrorist were killed and a number of arrest made. >> talked about those connected with the perpetratorperpetrator. more i wanted to follow up with on the conversation before talking about how things are changing with entail collection and you also talk about the refugees and the debate we're having about bringing the refugees here. another part of this debate we're going to have to talk about is the silicon valley part of this debate. do americans have a constitutional right to have an app on their iphone that is encrypted that governments cannot read? do they have a contusional right to have an iphone where you can have i message that will stop the federal government? you can't have everything. if you want to have a more liberal immigration policy, if you want to have a more liberal

refugee, there has to be give and take there has to be give and take and we can't be absolutist on what apps we can put on our iphone. the states all across the boarders now, national policy doesn't address things. david talked before about intelligence capabilities. every member of the anti isis coalition has to have two things. strong leaders that can come out and be commanding and confidence and that is intelligence capability. one of the few things the president said that's going to change, he said there will be more cooperation between the united states and france on intelligence sharing. that is the only chance to deal with technology. people who are ahead of us in propaganda and communication. >> we are still in the dark which is what you were talking about which is encryption.

diane told me the other day she went to silicon valley. this is a major industry in her state in california. she argued with the general counsels of the major companies and they stone walled her. they said go away. this is the senior member of the intelligence committee, the ranking member and also the veteran senator from california. >> does richard haas, does apple want to be the official messa messaging platform of terrorist world wide? does whats app want to have their app on every iphone found on dead terrorist? we got to grow up and make choices. you can't whine, not you, but americans can't whine about not having a more liberal refugee policy and at the same time not enable our entail agencies to

follow not only refugees but other people who come here. >> two things, joe, one is you're right. it ought to be linked to refugee policy rather than treated to abstract policy issue about the right of individuals to have access to technology. it ought to be linked, if you will, to the consequences. secondly, this is not in and of itself unique. it's not as though there are other aspects of technology in our societies where there are no limits. we don't make necessarily the most advanced form of every technology available to every single citizen. even in highly regulated areas like gun control there are still some limits. that ought to be the thinking here. just because certain things are available, they are available and perhaps acceptable for certain purposes or uses doesn't mean they have to be widely available. we need ultimately, idealy volunteer but if need be, it ought to be legal. >> david. >> i think the thing that

viewers should understand is that the one real resource that the united states, france, all the countries that are targets have in this fight is their ability to see what's coming at them through surveillance and through the use of modern technology. because of new encryption schemes, the juhadist are smart and know the latest app and latest thing to go after and the message about put this on your phone. a lot of that has been lost and i think going forward, the issue for silicon valley will be when there's a lawful order from a court in counter terrorism and investigation where they need information, today it can be impossible to get it because the encryption is so strong. they're going to have to figure out a way where the court says it's in the country's interest to turn this over. there's got to be a way to get that. is there a back door? a different system?

the tech companies are going to have to rethink this a little bit so they can be in compliance. >> i want to go back and take in everything that's been said and go back to the point andrea made before president hollande spoke about the briefing you got at the pentagon and what they're saying. i presume in that no governor's president. that's understandable. >> they did brief the governors. >> they briefed them on the report that's out today on buzz feed and of the daily express where you have an operative for isis claiming that more than 4,000 covert government have been hidden mongs refugees. that is the number of the question that we've got to get an answer to. what do we know about the people coming? how do you vet this process and how is our government in cooperation with the british, french and others dealing with this crisis? everyone acknowledges isis is so smart. you don't think they figured out

a way? >> that's a question for europe more so than the u.s. >> they're now saying let's bring them here. >> what the u.s. is saying that we will continue this process. we are homeland, the fbi and our counter terrorism center all work together in these refugee camps in person face to face doing interviews, doing health checks and we won't let them in for 24 months so we repeatedly go back to these people. that's been the process. that is the process. that process has to be addressed because of this threat, obviously, people are getting into europe. the bigger problem is the visa waiver system, that's the problem. once they get into europe with a western passport, then they're not refugees and can get in. we're looking at the wrong problem. >> let's bring in nbc news white house correspondent chris jansing that's been covering the breaking news all night. >> reporter: i want to bring up

a couple of things that came up in the press conference. you heard bill neely suggesting that the paris prosecutors said it was surveillance and phone taps that led them to this apartment. it did. that apartment had been being watched for a while now. french television though is reporting that they did still indeed believe that he was in syria and in fact what led them there was the woman who blew herself up who had that belt on and they said she was a noted accomplice of his and some sort of relation which may mean a cous cousin, personal relationship, they did not specify. french tv saying that that was actually what led them there and that there is going to be testing on the body of the man who was killed taken out by a snyper. obviously, they want to know who that is. at this point, no identification either on either of the people

killed or the seven people arrested mika. >> chris jansing, thank you. still ahead chief foreign correspondent richard angle joins us. he was there last night as the raids were being carried out. plus as events like this play out, would ben carson be ready to handle it as commander in chief? some of his inner circle have their doubts. plus tomorrow's show we'll speak with defense secretary ashton carter. on optimism. it's what sparks ideas. moves the world forward. invest with those who see the world as unstoppable. who have the curiosity to look beyond the expected and the conviction to be in it for the long term. oppenheimerfunds believes that's the right way to invest... ...in this big, bold, beautiful world. trust number one doctor recommended dulcolax constipated?

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joining us now richard angle who witnessed much of the raid last night. richard, describe what you saw. >> reporter: we arrived here not very much after this raid began. it started around 430 tim testimotim in the morning local time. there were reports in the neighborhood and we're a 10 minute drive from the center of paris reports of heavy gun fire, explosions and we arrived not much after that. when we got here, police were

still setting up according. they were very nervous and very tense. we could hear the gun fire echoing in the background. as we approached to police they pointed their rifles and shined flashlights in our eyes. they made it clear we were backed up. they were trying to get people off the streets and telling people to stay indoors. the main gun fight had already happened. it was a very intense gun battle. we spoke to witnesses who said they had never heard anything like it. they weren't surprised it happened in this neighborhood. this suburb is known primarily for having muslim migrants. many of them from north africa. there's a lot of drug dealers. we have been told by a neighborhood that the house raided was operated by someone who had a past with petty crime. this was clearly also something that the police were expecting. they were coming ready for a

battle. they came in very large numbers and they came with their guns drawn. >> arichard angle, thank you vey much. we have new poll numbers showing the american government is uneasy with the united states isis strategy. a new york times poll released just before the terrorist attacks in paris last week found the americans were already unhappy with the president's approach to isis. 31% of americans said they approve of the way the president is handling the situation with isis militants. 72% felt things were going badly for the u.s. in its fight against isis. with those numbers as a backdrop now to this story. an adviser to ben carson says the republican and at this time is struggling to grasp foreign policy. this after carson had doubled down this week on his add

version of chinese military involvement in syria. >> the seerps have sophisticated chinese weaponry. that's the base of it. and support in order to utilize it. >> where did you get that information from? whose advising you on that m matt matter? >> my advisers. i have advisers who are former military people and advisers who are former cia people. >> but dewayne, an 83-year-old former cia operative said it's been difficult to get through to him on foreign policy. he told the new york times nobody has been able to sit down with him and have him get one iota of intelligent information about the middle east. he also said carson needed weekly conference calls briefing him on foreign policy so quote we can make him smart. the carson campaign pushed back

saying carson has daily briefings. for if new york times to take advantage of an elderly gentleman. >> it's the rumsfeld defense. >> david. >> wait, there's more. ben carson is also under scrutiny for an invasive answer on isis he gave on fox news this weekend. >> who would you call first specifically to put together an international military coalition? >> my point being that if we get out there and we really lead and it appears we're making progress then all of the arab states and even the nonarab states who are beginning to recognize the movement is global. it's not just local and middle

east. if we fight it there, they will have to pull their resources in their area and then we won't have to necessarily have to fight them here. that's what i'm saying. >> can you tell us who you would call first, sir on the international scene? >> i would call for all the arab states to be involved in this. i would call for all traditional allies to be involved in this. i don't want to leave anybody out. >> after criticism to failing to proo side a single country he would call he told the new york times he's been briefed so many times i guess he just froze. >> williams elaborated in an interview with mark. >> dr. carson is very dismissive of the question. he did not think it was a question because it was hypothetical and dr. carson doesn't like answering hypotheticals and so he intentionally did not answer the question and i know that because i had an extensive discussion

earlier with him this morning about the fox interview. >> what did he say? >> he said he was dismissive. he thought it was a silly question. i said to him look, when you're on national forums and in debates, when they ask the questions and you don't answer them, people may think you don't know the answer. you've been asked that question a hundred times and know the answer. the bottom line on any given day, any of these candidates can be asked a question about foreign policy they cannot answer. there's much more him to learn. he's not perfect and will never be perfect but continues to surround himself with people that can enhance his credentials. >> somebody on tweitter said you're putting up a fire with gasoline when you say learning curve. >> people are at a critical time and we have a guy who can't name

a single country he would want to be an allie and saying that he's just, he's not absorbing this investigation. >> dr. carson is not a foreign policy expert. his campaign manager told me look at the whole field. there's nobody who is a true foreign policy. >> he is does not look serious there especially when you compare that interview with your interview with jeb bush yesterday who handled every single question in a way that makes him not marco rubio but like everyone else in the field. >> who was extraordinarily impressive. he answered every question fluidly with a lot of detail and a lot of heart too. not just memorized talking points and dr. carson can't do that. he is appealing to people on a different basis than that. >> but post paris, i don't know

he's going to be appealing to republican voters. >> pg at this point and the polls reflect this. the country doesn't need someone to be on a learning kev. you need to have an understanding at least at a visceral level of what you need to do here as president of the united states. look, january of 2017 waits for no one. you step into that office the first day they give you thattinthat national security briefing. you make that first phone call to your arab allies. you don't know that now, the question the country has to ask is can we wait for you to find out? >> new polls showing ben carson has dropped. he was pulling with donald trump in several poles but trump now is at 28% in the latest poll. carson down to 11 points.

not too far ahead. trump obviously, the reuters national poll ahead a great deal. much more of the primary and caucus states shows trump ca gaining support while trump is dropping. carson tied with marco for second place. ted cruz in fourth place. jeb bush and john kasich tied for fifth. it's going to be interesting to see how paris and it had aftereffect of paris shakes that poll up. i would expect jeb bush to move up. >> those seven people are fighting for the nomination and fighting to show they're ready to be commander in chief 2017. when you see trump rated high on strength and rated high dealing with isis, it's up to the establishment candidates including jeb bush on his decision of national security to say to the voters you need

somebody who understands this stuff. >> i made no comparison between donald trump and ronald reagan but we can have this kwer sand you understand because we can remember it. some of the kid don't out there watching. i do remember in 78, 79, 80 ronald reagan treated with abili with about as much contempt as donald trump is now. not comparing the two but just like ronald reagan showed strengt strength, just as he spoke on the a rein canadian hos tanl crisis. you have donald trump who is the exact opposite and would take this as an honor as would obama supporters as what barack obama was in the g20 press conference. if you don't like barack obama's leadership then if you're in the

republican party this may be donald trump's time. >> as counter intuitive as it might sound, i said this on sunday after he had that rather remarkable rabb remarkable ranting appearance. i said at this point in time people may want the big man theory. that's what he suggests. i'm not putting myself in there, i'm just saying the strength and force. >> ronald reagan could never be elected president of the united states. i have a kwek question for the table. what did you make of mitt romney's foreign policy? is that saying if you're looking for an alternative i'm still in the game. all the sudden not bad from mitt romney. >> i don't see the logic of it

at this stage. >> really? >> it's because no one can get it. i think he looks at the four established candidates christie, rubio, kasich and bush and says our nominee must be one of the four. he wants to frame that argument and give them a model. >> most republican establishment figures believes this is going to end up at a brokers convention if donald trump continues. ben carson is falling off, i suspect we're going to see that fall continue and mark and i have held the position and mark, you're still holding out. donald trump wins iowa, there's not going to be a brokered convention. there's going to be a donald trump coronation.

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french president just finished addressing an assembly of elected officials.

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. 45 past the hour. france is seeking to up the anty on isis with another waive of area strikes. the latest round has targeted raqqah, the islamic state of operations. the wall street journal reports french jet fighters dropped 16 bombs on two targets. a command center and training center. yesterday they backed a french support with military emissions and french president set to meet

with both american and russian counter parts next week to broaden the coalition. joining us now, member of the armed services and foreign affairs committee congresswoman of hawaii, she was deployed to iraq twice as part of the hawaii national guard. also with us republican congressman adam kinsinger of illinois who served in iraq and afghan stand pete williams is at the table as well. good to have you all. >> let's start with you. you've had tough words about the illegal war against isad. explain. >> i think there's a lot of misunderstanding and confusion. a lot of people aren't aware there's two wars we're waging right now in syria. the first one is against isis. this is a war authorized after 9/11 and this is a war that is within our national security interest. the second war is the war to

overthrow the syrian government of isad. this is not a war that's been authorized by congress. congress has not guildeclared w and it's counteroperative to our first war because it's helping to chief the effort that all the groups are trying to do, take over all of syria and establish their iz ma'am rancic fate which would be did i that's rous. >> congressman, can we have peace in syria if they stay? >> no. with respect to my friend, the idea of an illegal war against a dictator that his cup tountry i turning against. >> shouldn't we declare war? >> no, we're not engaged in active warfare. are we trained? yes. in a lot of places. air strikes against them and we dealt with that with the red line but when all is said and

done if you want to fix isis, you have to fix syria. as long as he stays there's no chance of hope in syria. >> isn't that part of the problem is it's a two front war and we're not exactly sure where we stand against being driven out of power and where we stand in being aggressive on isis? >> we want them driven out of power but not so quickly we could see in damascus a version of what we saw in lebanon. he does have top leave power but not through an american act of war. that seems irrelevant. the only way he's going to be driven out of power is if they want him pushed out of power. it doesn't require an act of war to see political change. the problem was as many backers show precious little inclination to push him out. there is the larger question how

can we conduct a war in syria under these circumstances? odds are for the next couple of years isad could well be in power in an enclave that controls a fraction of the country. how do we go after isis in that environment? what is our goal? what scale do we do it with? what role to others play? what's the definition of success? how fast do we try to achieve and how much? that's the question about american strategy that i simply do not see being debated in this country. >> and pete williams, we also obviously are going to have another debate in this country and that is where security concerns meet personal liberty. we had the battle after september 11th and we're going to have it again now looking at some of these apps that are encrypted. what do you expect the debate to

look like in the coming months? >> it's been an evolution on this. the fbi has been warning about this since may, about the possibility of terrorist suspects using these apps that you can download and put on your smartphone that provide end to end encryption. you send a text message it's encrypted until it's received and read by the party you sent it to. in the meantime, if the fbi comes and knocks on the door and what's app or in of these apps, we have a court order, we need to read what joe is sending, that company can't do anything because it's encrypted. it can't even read it. now, initially the fbi director sounded a big alarm and seemed to get some traction. the companies have been pushing back a little bit but the administration has backed off of a confrontational approach. it doesn't look like there's going to be any legislation right now. the administration isn't pushing it. now what you hear from the homeland security secretary, we're trying to talk to the companies and work this out.

we think the atmosphere is better, better than when james initially said, i have a huge problem with apple's phones that even apple can't unlock if you lock them. i think the paris attacks though do shift the pendulum some and it's moving away from protecting privacy at all costses to look now maybe there is a way to meet in the middle ground. what the companies say they don't want to provide a quote/unquote back door that shows the government this is all you have to do to get in. a compromise might be, you keep it yourself if you're the app developer and we won't use it until we have a court order and you give us the content. >> i think congress will jump into this. the administration didn't get anywhere congressional committees now want action, intelligence committees will jump into this because they see a real problem. >> dianne feinstein told congressman yesterday to

basically get lost. went to our own constituents saying i need help, we need help. will congress have to step ford? >> when we tried to deal with private sector sharing virus threats or internet threats with the government, these privacy groups exploded and it became a huge political hot potato, where we'll be allowed to read encrypted text messages, i think it's going to be a big fight but a discussion we need to have. >> it's always the argument of the balance between civil liberties and national security. the key is something you mentioned with cause, if you have a court order and valid reason to be able to try to get access to the information, that's one thing, versus the bulk gathering, the gathering of information on all americans whether it's e-mails or phone calms or who we're calling, that's i think at the crux of this argument with cause versus gathering information on all americans. >> important to note, while

we're having this discussion, we don't yet know if the plotters in paris used encrypted apps, we don't know that yet. many law enforcement people have said they think it's likely but we don't know it. these are people that were brothers involved in this, they knew each other. maybe they did the planning over the kitchen table. we don't know that yet. >> thank you very much. as we go to break, this just in from the associated press. the main terminal at copenhagen's international airport has been evacuated because of a suspicious bag. we'll be tracking that development and the latest from the raid when "morning joe" comes right back. we found lower co-pays... ...and a free wellness visit. new plan...same doctor. i'm happy. it's medicare open enrollment. have you compared plans yet? it's easy at medicare.gov. or you can call 1-800-medicare. medicare open enrollment. you'll never know unless you go. i did it. you can too. ♪

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because we should fit into your life. not the other way around. . up next the latest from paris as police wrap up a dramatic 7-hour operation targeting the mastermind of last week's attacks. right now the fate of the key men they are looking for remains unclear. plus, the syrian refugee battle shifts from governors to u.s. congress. the latest on the vote that come as early as next week on this. and our conversation this morning with white house press secretary josh earnest traveling with the president in the philippines. we'll be right back. alright, kelly and promise me that you'll try that taco place on south street. and we have portfolio planning tools to help you manage your ira. yeah, you're old 401k give me your phone. the rollover consultants give you step-by-step help. no set-up fees.

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♪ >> just moments ago that was french president francois hollande, the mayors of france and elected officials after hollande wrapped up his address moments ago in paris. welcome back to "morning joe" live this morning in washington. we're learning many new details of what led to the dramatic overnot raid in france where two are dead and seven are in custody. after heavy gunfire and explosions rocked a neighborhood just north of paris early this morning, nbc news confirms that the apartment came to authorities' attention while

trailing a suspect, a woman believed to have connections to the terror suspects. they called for reinforcements around 4:20 in the morning local time, the siege lasted seven hours. they are not identifying the dead or arrested at this time. though they say that the suspected -- they suspected the organizer behind last week's deadly attack abdelhamid abaaoud would be found inside the apartment. officials have not addressed whether or not he was at the scene at this point. french president francois hollande said france might extend the state of emergency. we have a lot to go over this morning. let's bring in nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel who witnessed much of the raid last night in saint-denisa >> if i'll go backwards a little bit. right now they have just clear the barricades away.

this is the first indication we have received that things here are truly over. there had been a cordon in place -- just a few moments ago, last time i spoke to you on air, there was a police line behind me. that has been cleared away and people are now free to move around. there had been a something of a curfew in place here. they are clearly not doing that anymore. a very different scene when we got here, shortly after 4:30 this morning. there was a hail of gunfire. we caught the tail end of it but could still hear gunfire ringing out, the sound of what could have been explosions, they may have been stun grenades but loud bangs in the background. this began when police raided this apartment, a female suicide bomber detonated an explosive, perhaps an explosive vest. two people were killed according to the french president and sources tell us that seven people have been arrested.

the french officials have not said who those are. it seems they are either still identifying them or working them for intelligence leads. >> richard, thank you very much. we'll be checking back in with. dave ignatius joins us and andrea mitchell and michael steele. david, you have sourcing that tells you some plans for attacks in the united states were going on in raqqah. >> we have known that the isis terrorists have been trying to activate lone wolves cells in the united states. i'm just hearing that the united states has been taking more action than we have publicly known to go after those people before they strike, that they were aware of plots against targets in the u.s., similar to the attack we've seen in paris and that the people plotting those attacks are no longer alive.

so i'm just beginning to learn about details of this but it's important for people to know that there's more the u.s. is doing quietly, secretly that has been obvious, to go after the people before they strike here. >> and what we are doing and i think josh earnest was sharing some of that with you as well or will be, that the intelligence on targeting is really important because what the french are doing is basically taking over american targets. we had the target list and sharing them with the french. they are bombing in iraq, not in syria. after the attack on friday they started in syria. then we saw this extraordinary -- not only the confirmation from putin yesterday that it was an isis bomb that blew up their airliner but they started going after raqqah also. they are doing it in a much heavier way, less precision weapons, we've been talking about that here, but what hollande is asking and coming to washington next week and wants a

new coalition of russia, united states and france. this is unusual. it's partly because he can't get unified nato approach. >> why can't he get that? >> turkey. chapter five -- article 5 is very tough for nato only happened once and that was provisional after 9/11 at our request. so he knows he can't get that. he doesn't want to be rejected by nato, he's trying to create a new coalition and put together putin and obama. going first here on thursday. >> the united states has taken a more aggressive tact against isis even before paris, is that correct? >> it is true that we have done things using our special operations forces in northeast syr syria, raqqah, we have drones that can be very precise. we have ways of looking and monitoring targets that are very

advanced. there's been more of that action that's been taken going after people who were in contact with isis recruits in the united states, people volunteering to take actions here. so again, this is something that needs more reporting that i'm going to try to look at more and talk more about but it's reassuring to know that there is more being done, more known about these attacks. >> michael? >> quick question for you, david. since the days of the church -- hunkering down on and limiting our abilities through cia and other operations, to do the kind of covert on the groundwork that is so much a part of the building blocks, not just good intelligence but actionable intelligences, how does that play out for us these days. do you see the country, the white house, the congress taking a fresh look at the church committee findings and maybe

even easing back and saying these times call for something different because the enemy is not russia of the great cold war but -- >> i don't hear anybody talking about a fund attal rewriting of the rules of the game. there's a desire to use the tools that the u.s. has more aggressively. one thing that i've written off and convinced so, we don't know enough about this part of the world to be involved in it in a way we have to be. we need to know more and have better intelligence and taking more risks in recruiting. as our director of intelligence james clapper said a year ago, we underestimated this adversary, meaning we didn't know enough. that has to change. >> earlier this morning we spoke to white house press secretary josh earnest and asked him whether the president is underestimating the isis threat and why the president is

sticking to his strategy. >> the president has been very focused on some important business in asia and but it has not come second in any way to making sure our country is doing what is necessary to respond to this significant threat from isil, latd out a strategy more than a year ago for degrading and ultimately destroying that terrorist organization. we have seen stepped up attacks from both the french and the russians overnight. we obviously welcome those actions that are focused against isil. the french for some time have been part of the 65 member coalition that the president built and has been leading. we welcome their stepped up contributions. when it comes to russians, we welcome the change in strategy that they are starting to signal based on finally now starting to focus on isil targets and not spending so much time focused on shoring up bashar al assad, been their client losing his grip on power the last several years. >> over the weekend the white

house stated after these attacks that it was unlikely that isis had the capabilities to strike in the same way inside the united states that they struck in paris last friday night. is that still the white house's position today? >>. >> there's no denying that europe faces a larger risk when it comes to extremists and when it comes to isil than the united states does. that said the president doesn't take lightly the risk that does exist. that's why when the president convened the national security meeting of his national security team on saturday, prior to leaving on this trip, the president met with his secretary of homeland security. met with his director of the fbi and his attorney general all of whom participated in that meeting and the president's first question to the people around that table was have we taken the steps that we believe are necessary to both prevent attacks in the united states and follow-up onion going

investigations to ensure we're keeping tabs on those we need to worry about and protect the homeland. this is certainly a priority of the president of the united states. >> david ignatius. >> josh, i wanted to ask you specifically, what new steps the white house has authorized for the u.s. to take to assist france in intelligence cooperation, other law enforcement efforts and also what new kinds of military action is the white house contemplating in the wake of these events? >>. >> well, david, as the president announced in his news conference at the g-20, the united states and france have been for some time working to deepen our military and intelligence with syria. and we have done that and it's because of that corporation and the logistical support that only the united states can provide that france is even in a

position to ramp up like they did in raqqah overnight. we're seeing fruits of this early investment based on france carrying out these actions. what is also true and you've also seen, the united states use all of our law enforcement and intelligence resources to assist the french as they carry out their investigation and even conduct some of the law enforcement activities they've been engaged in over the last several days, including the significant events overnight. so -- >> josh -- >> we are committed to being sure that we're standing shoulder to shoulder with our oldest ally as they confront this threat on their own soil. >> to be clear with what you mean, does that mean we're providing targeting information to the french so that they can strike isis targets in syria? >> that is precisely the kind of information that the united states can provide. david, the only reason the united states is in a position to do that, more than a year ago the president ordered

significant military operations inside of syria that are being carried out by the united states and coalition partners. the intelligence we've gleaned and military strikes that the united states and coalition partners have taken over the last year have laid the groundwork and created an opportunity for france to step up and make their own contribution to our broader coalition. we obviously welcome their ramped up contribution but there should be no denying fact that the only reason the french are in a position to carry out this type of response because of early investment in our military and intelligence that the president ordered more than a year ago. >> john hielemann. >> josh, the debate over refugees in the united states has become very intense and politicized very quickly. the president on wednesday in the philippines where you are attacked republicans in a pretty sharp way. there are those that would say that republicans have also amped up their criticism of the president. is it incumbent on the president

to rise above this plitization and call for unity rather than more partisan attacks? >> well, john, the fact of the matter is, this rhetoric that we see from republican candidates for president and even some from republican members of congress who are offering up legislation suggesting that somehow we should put a halt to our refugee program, the fact of the matter is legislation like that is much more focused on politics than it is national security. if you want the commander in chief and president of the united states to be focused on doing what's in the national security interest of the united states, the president believes clearly that rhetoric like we're seeing on the republican side, only serves the isil argument, that they are leading a war of islam against the west. the fact of the matter is, the west is not at war with islam. and this is a point that president obama's predecessor george w. bush made on a number of occasions. for republicans to erode that

progress and effort and undermine that message only serves to advance the argument of isil. so the president standing up and speaking out about this does serve our national security interest and does make clear that their political arguments are not good for our national security and the president will not hesitate to make that point, regardless of who makes it. >> all right josh earnest, thank you so much. greatly appreciate you taking time to talk to us. >> coming up on "morning joe", two jets bound from america to paris are dif diverted. bomb threats turn out to be little more than a hoax. we'll have the latest on that story next. believe it. at&t and directv are now one. which means you can watch in the house, in a treehouse, or even in miss pepperpie's house. pause in your pjs and hit play during a pb&j. nice!

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heightened fears of

terrorism force two paris bound u.s. flights to be diverted after receiving bomb threats last night. air france says one flight from los angeles international landed in salt lake city, another from washington dulles airport was diverted to hallifax nova xoesh sha, one passenger tells nbc news that two hours after takeoff, flight attendants announced the plane was making an emergency landing. after landing in salt lake city, he says buses arrived to take passengers to another location to be interviewed. the fbi has since released a statement saying there is no evidence to suggest the threats were credible but says they are now working to determine the origin. europe's most visible sports venues remain on edge. hanover stadium in germany was evacuated after police encounter what they called a concrete threat hours before an exhibition soccer match between

germany and the netherlands. the majority of the crowd which was expected to include german chancellor angela merkel had not yet entered the 49,000 seat stadium before the match was called off. and evacuation orders were given. no explosive were found anywhere in the city and no arrests were made. but in london, a friendly match between england and france went on as scheduled. in a mark of solidarity, during what is usually a bitter rivalry, wembley stadium was lit in the colors of the french flag and crowds joined in as the country's anthem was played in the stadium. ♪ >> the french team subdued in its return to the pitch days after its tragedy lost 2-nil in

a largely uneventful game. still ahead on "morning joe", are we effectively praising terrorists by using the word jihadi. keith ellison describes why we need to scrap certain parts of our vocabulary, beginning with the term isis. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. it's your grandpappy's hammer and he would have wanted you to have it. it meant a lot to him... yes, ge makes powerful machines. but i'll be writing the code that will allow those machines to share information with each other. i'll be changing the way the world works. (interrupting) you can't pick it up, can you? go ahead. he can't lift the hammer. it's okay though! you're going to change the world. can a a subconscious. mind? a knack for predicting the future.

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ignatius and michael steele and marg get carlson. the number of governors voicing concern over president obama's plan to accept 10,000 refugees over the next year is growing. 31 opposing, refusing or suspending in their state either permanently or after security review. here's what president obama traveling in the philippines said yesterday. >> these are the same folks often times who suggest that they are so tough that just talking to putin or staring down isil or using rhetoric will solve problems out there. but apparently they are scared of widows and orphans coming into the united states of america as part of our tradition of compassion. first they were worried about the press being too tough on them during debates, now they are worried about 3-year-old

orphans. that doesn't sound very tough to me. they've been playing on fear in order to try to score political points. or to advance their campaigns. and it's irresponsible. and it's contrary to who we are. and it needs to stop because the world is watching. >> well, republicans obviously get out front on this issue but it's not just republicans that are expressing concerns. obviously the governor of new hampshire, running for senate is expressing concerns as have other democrats. chuck schumer said yesterday the plan may need to be paused and john mccain disagreed by calls to ban us muslim refugees but accept christians. >> i'm a christian, and i don't believe -- i believe in all children are god's children and to say we will only take christian children, by the way, what about jewish refugees?

i think it's -- i don't understand someone who would say in this humanitarian crisis that they would only take children who are christians. that to me is a contradiction to my faith, love thy neighbor. >> want to tell me who you're referring to? >> ted cruz, sure, and others. >> john mccain never has any problem calling out ted cruz. never. ever. i don't know if chuck thought he was setting him up with a difficult question -- sure, ted cruz. we actually saw what's going to happen, david, on this set before, you had a democrat while suggesting we continue the tradition of letting refugees in did say what chuck schumer said, let's pause and talk about this and figure out the process before we continue forward. words that the president of the united states will not be pleased with but it's something -- it's where we're going to come. >> i thought he said it exactly

right, which is to say we need to reassure governors that this is safe. that's not an unreasonable thing for governors to worry about. the programs are extensive. there's no reason to think that they are unsafe. there's a lengthy, up to two year process of vetting. but we need to look at this and tell the country and tell the governors, here's what's being done and why you should be reassured and this needs to be strengthened. this other part, nothing to worry about. so i thought that's what we do need. while i agree with a lot of what the president was saying, there's no question as you said earlier in the show the tone of his remarks sounded to people like a very political criticism and that's not helpful right now. >> the tone has been off the first couple of days. we do also have to look, mark, at the first couple days, some of the overreactions and andrea mitchell pointed out correctly, we may be worrying about the wrong things when we're focusing so many on the syrian refugee

crisis, where it's going to take up to 24 months for these people to be screened and led it our country, we can worry about a guest visa program that allows syrians to come in by train and be dumped in a european country and get through a pore us process and ask for a guest vees at a a is a and come to the united states. >> when fear comes in, you start striking out at different things. one is we're going to let 65,000 syrian refugees come into the united states and it sounds that's in the process and we'll be inundated -- >> the "washington post" fact checked this morning where you have republican candidates saying 200,000 will be let in -- no, 10,000 this next year is the number of president has talked about. i suspect we will get to that if this screening process is agreed

upon and bipartisan way. >> by the way, they came out and said there's no screening process. peter king yesterday on the show saying it's a terrible vetting process and it seems to be four pronged and very thorough. it takes a long time, only 2200 syrians have gotten in the country. >> no evidence to a problem. >> i can tell you, michael steele, as a former member of congress in dealing with people wanting to come to this country, one of the reasons why i've taken a stronger stand against illegal immigration, i've seen how hard it is for people to get here legally from pakistan or even from eastern europe, trying to come over to america and my god, i had struggles with immigration agency for five years trying to get a father united with a son. it is not an easy process, which is why i say, no you don't get

to jump to the front of the line by making an illegal act. legal immigration getting to the united states, it's -- it's a tough ar duous process. >> it is a tough arduous process but you're dealing with a cunning enemy, that we've already snuck people in to the places we need to be, upwards of 4,000 reported this morning. everybody has their finger on various parts -- >> that's in europe though. >> that's europe. but this is the point, joe. we're very confident in our process. unfortunately i don't know if that confidence extends to the process in europe. as you were just noting, if you can get that visa, that work visa, that day pass, whatever you want to call it, to come into the u.s. -- >> that is a bigger problem, what andrea mitchell said this morning. the congresswoman gabby said the same exact thing. that it's -- that's more of a problem. i think we've got in this

debate, though, we've got it backwards and said this immediately after the attacks. it's the europeans first of all, who have the biggest immigration problem. they have the biggest open borders problem throughout the entire eu and they don't know how to integrate muslims into their population. the united states, i think it's just the opposite, legal immigration is tough. we don't have a porous process there. and we know how to integrate. this is a crisis. i just think it may be a crisis in europe instead of a crisis in america right now. >> i think you've got it right. europeans are key allies for us. but the reality is they don't have effective borders. what i hate to see is the united states, you know, the land of the free, the statue of liberty country, giving what sounds to the world and especially to muslims like a very intolerant message and the president is

right, we need to be careful about that. this war is partly about messaging. and you need to make sure that we're not sounding exclusion nar and don't make muslims feel their second class citizens. that would be the worst thing to happen. >> let's bring in congressman keith ellison of minnesota. great day to have you on here to talk about a variety of issues we've been discussing this morning. first of all, why don't you help us forward with inside the muslim community, what -- because muslims in america are obviously just as concerned as christians or jews or anybody else in america keeping their neighborhood safe. >> of course. >> what is a good balance between allowing syrian refugees into this country but also maintaining the security that you want in your neighborhood as much as i want in mine? >> well, i think we have a process that takes about 18 months to two years. there's multiple screenings and

interviews that go on. multiple databases applied. by the way, we have a good track record. my own district, i'm proud to say has many excellent people who are from somalia, they come from a war torn area and area where there's a terrorist group called al shabab and yet our homeland security vetting process has been pretty successful in people are doing well. i think that we should not alter who we are and what we do based on what they are trying to do. we should bolster our process and improve it as we go. but i don't think we should signal to anyone that we're going to set up a whole new set of rules to vet people who are muslim. we should treat people the same. >> congressman ellison, it's michael steele. with respect to that point and what joe and the table was just talking about, in looking at the

american process, clearly there is a level of confidence you just talked about, an 18 to 24-month process for migrants to come here. what about the european process? what role or what advice or process can you as a member of congress bring to bear in that conversation so that we know and give the governors of the country the confidence that it is complete and whole from beginning to end? >> i think we need to embrace our european neighbors and help them bolster their process. i think we need to recognize that we're kind of all in this together, that daish hates the world, including the muslim world by the way. and we have to join together with european neighbors and others as well, to make sure that we keep the terrorists on one side and the fleeing refugees fleeing those terrorists on the other, who need a safe haven. we need to really have a comprehensive look here.

one thing i'll tell you, michael, i'm happy in vienna last week, world leader and including putin and obama, real began to start talking about ending the conflict with diplomatic means and law enforcement and military means. at the end of the day, we can talk about refugees and we should but we got to end this conflict. we have to stop the pot from boiling from the very beginning. and that's where i would like to spend a lot of time focusing attention. >> congressman ellison, margaret carlson here. since the paris attacks as you go about your business on the hill and hear your colleagues saying we'll accept christian possibly but not muslims, what do you say to them? how does that make you feel? you're a protected class as a congressman, what do you say to try to walk that back? >> i say congress shall make no

law establishing a religion or free exercise there of. that is first clause of the first amendment. i'm telling you that these folks are letting fear make them forget our constitution. the fact of the matter is, is that we don't do that. that's not who we are as a nation and also tactically it's a big mistake. remember, daish, their primary argument is that the west is at war with islam and islam is at war with the west. aren't we reinforcing their narrative? no, we have to say, they are not representing anything but tote tal tear yan and we represent tolerance and inclusion. we should never forget that and always remember that -- yeah, so. >> congressman ellison. david ignatius from the "washington post."

i want to ask you what you're hearing from muslim-americans, whether they are feeling that they are under attack? when they hear these governors talk about keepingous muslims and syrians, they feel personally upset because if they begin to get angry, it becomes a very different situation. what are you hearing? >> what i'm hearing is that people fear trepidation and hurt feeling s but the prevailing feeling is a surge of patriotism. this is my country too. i'm here because i love this country and i will fight for it and die for it. i'm not going to let isis ruin things for muslims around the world. i'm feeling a resurgence and need to really assert a muslim-americanness and tolerance and inclusion and respect. that's kind of the weird thing. as our -- some folks who have other faced fear of muslims, muslims are trying to assert

their belonging in society. my constituency in the fifth district of minnesota is mostly not muslim. they know i'm muslim. we've seen people all over this country voting more, participating more, volunteering more. and i just think that we need to continue on that trend. you know, the truth is, the japanese-americans fought most val yantly in world war ii, you know that, right? this is -- it's a fact that people who sometimes have their loyalty questioned, become the most patriotic and loyalty and i believe that's what's going on now. although, people do feel a little -- some people feel kind of bad. some parents feel worried for their kids. >> all right, congressman keith ellison. thank you for being with us. we greatly appreciate your time. before we go to break, a quick update, that evacuation order in coppen hagen's airport is over.

they were investigating a suitcase and donald trump says the key to defeating isis is to take their oil. how they get it and where they sell it next. bobby jindal said it wasn't his time. his reasons for dropping out of the presidential race to bring the gop field down to a more manageable 14. you're watching -- we've got about 12 to go. if you struggle you're certainly not alone. fortunately, many have found a different

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opportunity is everything you make of it. this winter, take advantage of our season's best offers on the latest generation of cadillacs. the 2016 cadillac ats. get this low-mileage lease from around $269 per month, or purchase with 0% apr financing. louisiana governor, republican presidential candidate bobby jindal dropped out of the race. he said quote, this isn't my time but didn't bow out quietly and spoke about the most important issues including radical islam and immigration. >> i think my party needs to do, the republican party, conservative movement needs to be is specific solutions and also taking on the threat of radical islamic terrorist. we have a president a community

organizer at a time of war. doesn't want to say the words radical islam. earlier this year i went abroad and went to europe and gave a speech and came back here and said europe has a problem. they are not assimilating many of these muslims, we must not let that happen here. the left hated that. the reality is we've got to continue to tell the truth. immigration without integration is not immigration it's an invasion. we must not let that happen here. >> that really is margaret carlson, a key, the assimilation, the united states has been so successful at because we've had about 230 years of experience at it. >> and a lot of immigrants who built the country. we do know how to do it. europe doesn't know how to do it and france especially doesn't know how to do it and england not very good at it. we have less of a problem. those people who have snuck in that i don't know if they snuck in, maybe they become americanized and the anger goes away. what they snuck in to do they are not go to do because we do

have an acceptance of these people as congressman ellison said. there are more patriotic because they are here and work harder. >> it's just the nature of who we are. when you come here, you're in america. >> that's true but that's not the feeling that a lot of americans have about those who are coming in now and especially come in illegal. and i think that the concept of assimilation has been distorted to the extent that they feel that the english language is under threat. they feel that the american culture, however that's defined, is under threat. i think there's still some systemic issues that the country is going to have to face in this -- in the new light of what we see with isis and how they use immigration and assimilation processes of a nation as well as the more internal discussion about who we are as americans. >> let's go now to business and bring in brian sullivan from cnbc. you've been reporting isis' oil

holdings and i've seen some reports they make $50 million a month on the black market in their oil holdings. i'm not quite understood for some time why we've allowed them to continue to amass that fortune. what have you found out in your investigation? >> joe, good morning. your totals are about right, treasury estimates $500 million a year from oil revenue, could be higher or lower. it's impossible to know. to your point about how we allow this to happen, we don't. we have started to make strikes on some of the oil fields but keep in mind there's a difference between a refinery and field. oil fields can be hundreds of miles of wide with thousands of individual pumps. that's hard to single out. refineries tend to be easier, big operations. here's the problem, isis uses mobile refineries and often individuals almost like a whiskey boot leger using small refineries to disstill and refine the oil. there maybe hundreds or thousands of these mobile refineries.

not just a case of let's blow up this refinery and cut off the money flow, but you need to figure out all of those hundreds if not more places where they are refining that oil. by the way, it's not as if isis is trading oil in the open market as now. oil $45 a barrel globally. they are trading on black market to those who line up for days or weeks for the oil. they sell it multiple reports have said for about $25 a barrel. it truly is a black market for black gold. >> all right, brian sullivan. thank you so much. we appreciate it. coming up next, she lost her son to the savagery of isis, joimz foley's mother has a direct message to president obama. keep it right here on "morning joe."

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yesterday the mother of slain american journalist james foley killed by isis in 2014 testified before congress and questioned the u.s. policy of hostage negotiations with terrorists. she gave her condolences to the city of paris and challenged whether the united states underestimated the power and will of the islamic state. >> i fear that our posture of no engagement with jim's hostage kaptors led to underestimation of intelligence and deep seated hatred for the united states and our citizens. what if we had been shrewd enough to engage the capt toors

the fall of 2013 to learn all we could instead of ignoring them. is it ever wise to ignore enemies of freedom and justice? >> tough words and the foleys have been tough from the beginning. >> they went along with a policy that they don't agree with. if courtney carlson or joey scarborough were an isis captive, would we go along with a bureaucrat telling us we can't do anything? i don't think so. >> no. >> you would do anything. and the hostage policy has been improved where the family gets some ability to act. >> i think most americans though, being assured that everything was being done that kosh done by the government would sit and listen. we happen to know people who run the government to know that -- >> healthcare.gov.

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live through it. you're setting a great example on how to deal with this. thank you and thank you for watching. i hope we give you a moment of joy through these tough times. >> that was jimmy fallon's message to the people of france from "the tonight show" on monday night. here's the latest on the raids we've been follow ug all morning. two suspects dead, seven in custody. the siege lasted seven hours. the man thought to be at the center of friday's attack was thought to be inside the apartment. officials have not yet addressed whether he was at the scene. let's talk about what we learned today with final thoughts. margaret? >> from the mouth of a late night host, the way to mourn the dead is to live. thank you, andrea mitchell for pointing out the porous system in europe for getting into the west and how that affects the united states' system, opens up holes in our own system. >> exactly.

michael, we may be focusing too much on the wrong thing right now. when we're looking at the refugee crisis, we may need to focus on what andrea was talking about, which is a visa program, visa guest program that would allow some of the immigrants that we have seen flooding into europe, without the screening that the united states does, being able to apply and get a guest visa to the united states and just come straight over here. >> i think we have an important opportunity to wholistically look at the european and u.s. connection on visas and how this process works. we can help them there. the other thing, joe, better intelligence on the ground. revitalizing our intelligence capabilities in the u.s. so abroad we can do better. >> we need democrats and republicans working together on figuring out a screening process. we need democrats and republicans working better together on everything. the president of the united states doesn't need to take the

bait and when republicans throw up the bait, other republicans need to call him out. msnbc picks up live coverage right now live from paris. >> good morning, coming to you live from paris. here's the very latest. a northern paris neighborhood was transformed into a war zone this morning. police caught in a fierce gun battle as they tried to catch the man believed to be behind last friday's deadly attacks. [ gunfire ] >> police surrounded and stormed an apartment in the neighborhood of saint-denis, looking for this man, abdel hamid abaaoud. at least two were killed, including a woman who detonated an explosive. seven people were arrested, including this man led away from the scene by police.

it's not clear in abaaoud was among the people found inside the apartment. i'm joined by our team across france and back in new york, chris jansing is in paris with me and don barelli is in new york. kelly, what's the latest on this raid? >> reporter: paris police say they were actually trailing a woman who suspected terrorist connections who led them to this neighborhood in saint-denis. that's when they decided to go in. that along with witness statements with wire taps and phone taps and surveillance led them to police that abdelhamid abaaoud may have been in a safe house in this neighborhood in one of the apartments in the apartment building that they raided this morning. it was an incredibly violent raid. there were helicopters overhead, gunfire, explio